This !... I get clipped every.single.time i step ! Why ! Lol it's so lame but over all im okay with the heat system .... just buff defense to balance out offense.
Yes. Side steps have always been shit in Tekken. They are much better in Virtua Fighter where they are kind of "scripted" ( what I mean by tha tis that a side step is an action that happens when you short press up or down, it's a command move ) . In VF, if you step the correct direction and correct timing , you can NOT be hit. The game simply don't allow it: it gives you invincibility frames during the step (again, IF and only you step direction is compatible with the move you're trying to escape)
The fixes needed are : 1) good defensive tools to all characters not only to top 10 2)we need sidewalk and sidestep buffed 3) fix hitboxes because Nina's slide shouldn't clip hwoarang's orbital ( the opposite should be happening) 4) heat moves shouldn't be safe and that plus
@@burhanerginn Are you just going to leave comments on my channel crying about Hwoarang? Like everytime you do it Hwoarang is barely mentioned, who traumatised you to this point lmaooo
@@burhanerginn the only thing Hwoarang has is those plus frames, which by the way (most of them) are easily steppable . Hwoarang is linear and has to risk and work hard in every mixup in order to win on high level. You have a game in which everyone is aggressive and safe so....unsafe hwoarang should be the least of your concerns.
@@K-Wiss probably hasn't labbed the character....so I don't blame him. But yeah, everyone is eager to say something negative in Tekken these days. Just enjoy the game and work hard if you have a weak match up.
YT K-Wiss talking about tekken is such a nice dude 10/10 saved my cat out of a burning house. On the other hand K-Wiss playing tekken is a menance 1/10, spits in my face, would not recommend
With Tekken 7 if I encountered a weaker player than myself I felt like I was in total control of the match and I could control the pace - Skill would almost always prevail over the long run… However in Tekken 8 if I encounter a weaker player I feel like I have very little control, and if you respect them too much or try to play a logical game then it’s easy to get inadvertently steamrolled - and before you know it they’re riding off into the sunset taunting and teabagging thinking they’ve achieved something… This is basically the Tekken experience for any half decent player now….
This game has 0 dopamine release for taking the time to learn and apply the new counters and techniques. I remember in tekken 7 before I found out that were jump over wall techs back in season 0-1, on TH-cam, I was in practice with lee randomly stumbling upon it. This game literally is just a pick up and play. No thinking just auto pilot
@ Casino really does some it up perfectly - and I find it sickening that a fundamentally sound player with an 80-90 defence stat can have the rug pulled out from under them by a player with no frame knowledge and a defence stat of 40
@@Skeksi_Managree i main kazumi on 7 and i do good poking, good defense, spacing and now i main nina kishin with 82 defense but i still get steamrolled by someone who is braindead and has like 30 defense jesus
Bro literally!! Getting characters to blue rank used to be a real accomplishment, I had my jin at like byakko and it took forever (Jin was really hard to play and my first Mishima )
- Heat engager need massive frame nerfs +17 is crazy. - Heat burst “look at me I’m mashing” animation needs to be edited out so Sidestepping & whiff punishing them can be more fluent - heat smash should be parry able (rage drives were in T7 why not HS) and low parryable - Heat dash should give a guaranteed follow up instead of full combo on hit ( but make it off axis where it’s possible to get a combo near wall if u have the skill) also frame nerfs - Rage arts should be jab checkable like T7 - Rage art should only be once a match but only when it hits( if it’s blocked u get it next round and so on until it hits) - Rage should time out if player recovers 25% of his/her health ( just look at the Yoshi clip where he recovers his entire hp bar in 1 combo and is still left in rage afterwards) - Powercrush heat engagers need to leave asap - All strings should have tracking like drag b3 4 - Chip damage should be limited to WR moves, powercrushes, and regular moves in heat - lowkey buff backdash
first good changelist ive read, love the once a match ragearts. All strings having tracking though? ru trolling? taking away massive defensive counterplay in an already incredibly aggressive game to that level is crazy.
I like all of these ideas except for the tracking stuff, then again every character getting a move like that is interesting, but to balance things further on the defense side i wish for sidesteps to be buffed. If you’re minus or maybe even just slightly + you’ll get clipped by things you otherwise should have dodged. It might sound stupid but I feel that we should be able to sidestep some moves on minus as it’d prevent people from not only being jailed against a blockstring against a wall, but facilitate evasive plays that look cool and are fun to watch
The DLC characters becoming 'stance characters with stocks' is so real, and i think that severely plays into the complaints of 50/50's in the game. Steve's Lion Heart, Ling's Hypnotist, Lidia's Heaven & Earth, and now Heihachi's new stance (whatever it's called) all feel like stances that literally exist just to force you to make a quick 50/50. Idk why they're doing this, it's dumb. Anyway, Miguel is going to be the winter DLC character and will have a new stance that functions like Negan's intimidation and have a "Dead Sister" stock that activates with he fights Jin.
I've watched 18 seconds of this video and I can confidently say that hwoarang bad Arslan ash goated always right very good no nuanced discussion needed
Ok serious comment after watching: While Hwo (my main) seems to have reasonable heat engagers, I'm not a fan of the ws3 guaranteed followup with df3+4 to force a mixup situation or free heat engage. It's unsafe which is nice for balance reasons, but the intention is clear to move towards easier access to heat - feels weird to me imo. I agree with Arslan's original statement, it's obvious there's a bit of hyperbole but the intention and call for a more interesting/varied approach to character design is clear. Overall can't wait to see where the game goes in the future, I've been having a ton of fun with the game and started recording/posting videos for the first time in quite awhile lol
I think the game would be much closer to perfect if chip was nerfed significantly. I think the amount of chip on some characters in heat make this game much more stressful than it needs to be. I think it should stay, but not lose you whole healthbar in 5 seconds blocking if you aren't careful. Defensive prowess is what makes tekken feel so rewarding to me at least and I feel like they've covered up that skill set too much with this game and a little needs to be brought back into the game.
God i'd love if quickfights had infinite rematches, i played around 200h of t8 at this point, and played MAYBE against 10 kumas, max 5 of them knew what they were doing. If i could've stayed with them and trained i would've been so happy
this'll be a long comment but I appreciate anyone who wants to read and respond figure I'll start with credentials just like you did. been playing Tekken casually since T3, got more serious in T7 and reached purple ranks in that game. Steam says I have about 3000 hours in it. currently in T8 I'm at blue but that's partly due to playing less ranked. in any case that means I have about 20 years experience playing Tekken, about 5 of which I've been playing more seriously with that out of the way, here's what I have to say: it seems to me that the fundamental issue here is feature creep. let me explain from T1 to T3 the formula stayed mostly the same. highs, mids, lows, throws and unblockables. with very few exceptions, those were the categories of attacks. combos were limited since there was no bound, tailspin or tornado and no walls. overpowered moves or setups were the result of oversights, errors or bugs on the part of the developers, not the result of intended behavior. there were no special moves, no meter or install mechanics, no rage, no heat and almost no guard breaks, and no power crush or armor of any kind. by the standards of many other fighting games, early Tekken could be said to have been a game that only featured normal attacks, with no burst mechanic, no supers, just good old normals and movement. this is what a lot of older Tekken players mean when they talk about old school Tekken as being more fundamentals based, since there were fewer easy answers to rely on the other thing that differentiates old Tekken from new Tekken is the number of moves in the game overall. back then there were generally fewer characters to choose from, and those characters had fewer attacks available to them compared to the large movelists you see in Tekken today. this meant that there was a much shorter learning period between picking up the game for the first time and reaching the point of having a good working level of matchup knowledge on every character in the game. characters simply had fewer moves, meaning it took less time to learn to play both as and against them, and with fewer characters in the game it was a more realistic goal to expect to be able to learn all of them at least reasonably well within a reasonable amount of time. this was also made easier by the aforementioned lack of additional attack types and mechanics from T4 onwards, features began to be added that complicated the state of the game. T4 added walls, with T5 refining the mechanic. T6 added rage and bound. T7 gave us tornado spin, added armor in the form of power crush and expanded rage to feature specials called rage drives and supers called rage arts, as well as introducing street fighter style super meters and dash cancelling for the first time thanks to the inclusion of Akuma in the game, not to mention the "new tactics" wall crush mechanic. now here we are in T8 with the logical progression leading to tornado spin and heat, as well as the additional feature of many characters now having unique install mechanics. throughout the years Namco have continued to add new characters to the franchise and new moves to the characters' movelists, generally preferring to add content rather than remove, to increase the game's complexity rather than simplify it. however you feel about it, one thing that can't be denied is we've come a long way from those humble beginnings. simply put, it's a lot and that's really the thing. in fighting games we talk a lot about "mental stack", or the amount of information a player is required to process or actively consider and be aware of at a given point during play. the notion is that the real victory is won in a match by giving your opponent so much to think about that they aren't able to deal with it all, causing them to make poor decisions, bad reads, execution drops or simply freeze up with indecision. you want them to be overwhelmed by the sheer weight of information they have to keep in their head, essentially overloading their mental processing. well, that mental processing is a lot harder to maintain if your opponent has 100 moves including armor, supers, guard breaks and stance mixups than if they only have 50 highs, mids and lows and maybe a throw or two. scale that up to the whole cast and the learning curve becomes significantly more daunting and the mental stack factor much more oppressive, especially for new players who are unfamiliar with the existing characters and moves and have to learn it all from the ground up to stand a chance for comparison, Tekken 3 had 23 characters with what I want to say was an average of around 50 moves each, maybe less. no bound, no wall, no armor, no heat, no rage. Tekken 8 comes with all those features plus unique installs, and that's with 34 characters many of whom have closer to 100 moves, some even more, with more characters and moves to be added in future updates. for the record, T7 started with 36 characters and by the time of its final update that was up to 51 what I'm saying is all the crap they keep adding is the real problem. there's no use adding more features to attract new players when the thing turning them away from the game in the long run is how impossibly bloated and oversaturated everything about it is to begin with. of course we can zero in on the forced 50/50s, the homogenization of the cast into stance based rushdown characters, the proliferation of armor and guard breaks etc. but all those things strike me as a symptom of this one overarching issue which is Namco's lack of confidence in the core systems on which this entire series has been built from day one - namely the simple, gimmick free fundamentals based gameplay that set Tekken apart from its competition in the first place. they keep layering extra things on top and it only serves to dilute what was already a winning formula. trying to compensate for the bloat by adding easy panic moves and forced mixups to appeal to button mashing noobs hasn't actually made it any easier for them, it's just made the whole experience more toxically braindead in a way that doesn't really enhance the player experience but actively hurts it. these mechanics depress people, they make players both old and new feel bad because it doesn't feel fair to get hit by all this overpowered nonsense all this game really needs is less of everything. fewer characters, fewer moves, fewer mechanics. that's how you make it accessible to new players, by actually simplifying the game so they don't have to get a phd in tekkenology just in order to play it. that's how you make it enjoyable for legacy players, by removing the unnecessary gimmicks and focusing on the core gameplay that has kept them hooked all this time. that's how you foster a legendary competitive scene, by listening to your pro players and working together with them to create a game that allows them to truly demonstrate its potential for your general audience to see and get inspired by but what do I know, I'm just some guy on the internet
Dude, I read this thing front to back and it was a dissertation on Game Design and Game Theory. Well done seriously 👏 I think the only thing missing from your arguments here is the fact that Tekken caught the eye of newer Players because it was just a bit snappier than the other 3D Fighters in its animations. DOA does a lot of skipping and makes the characters look like you're playing with action figures and Virtua Fighter goes for a more realism approach which unfortunately doesn't always attract an audience. Tekken found a middle ground between those which appeals to a wider audience, somewhat understandable and "realistic" animations that were stylised. I think Tekken 8 tried to capture the feeling of that heightened reality and turn it up just a little bit more than it already had and that was the idea behind Heat visually. I completely agree though. It's the same reason people don't want to get into One Piece. When you see all the features and Moves Tekken has on offer it's like 100 Attacks 30+ times and that is going to push away potential Players on the face of it. I suppose that's the idea behind Special Style. They made it so you don't have to get so overwhelmed by the enormous Move Lists, but that in and of itself reveals an issue in that the Game is so genuinely nuanced and multifaceted that picking it up for the first time in 8 is a legitimate task. You have to learn Sidesteps, Highs, Mids, Lows, Throws, Homing Moves, Armour Moves, Counter-Hit Moves, Parries, Stances, Stance Cancels, Crouching, While Standing Moves, Rage Art, Heat Burst, Heat Smash, Heat Dash, the list goes on. Having to learn all that for your first Tekken probably takes so long. I'm lucky I started in 7 so that I had an accelerated learning process on these Heat Mechanics. All I had to do was learn what the Game wanted from me insofar as my Heat Usage and that Sidestepping was better. That's all I had to learn, but new Players jumping in? Good fucking luck.
In my opinion I think we need to give Harada and co time to work on the heat system. It’s a new mechanic in its first year with no arcade release, and even T7 had some problems after getting 2 years to stew in the arcades
Great discussion. As someone who has not played T8 much at all due to college I am very in-tune with whats happening with the game and the players' feelings towards it. I would like to see heat re-looked at as well and safe powercrush heat engagers should be gone imo.
8:18 is SOOOO TRUE. Specifically powercrush heat engagers annoy me. It just feels insane when they tank hits, slam you to the wall, heal and then are already in your face at +15 frames.
I’m a new gen player currently using Lee in fujin right now, 650 hours. Personally I would like to see a cleaner and more concise tekken, and these are my very uneducated takes and what should be changed: please take with a whole shaker of salt Heat: -heat should not be a bar, but a singular state similar to how being in rage is -heat smash should only come out if the first hit connects and not on block/whiff -when heat is activated, you can stay in it as long as you don’t use it with a heat smash/heat dash etc -heat burst should not stop the flow of the game (no cutscene) -heat smash should have zero tracking except maybe the first hit -heat dash moves have the same frames as normal versions Personally I enjoy heat burst extended combos and having an alternative heat launchers can be fun sometimes but the one button heat smash just caters to casuals who have already dropped tekken to play black ops 6, I never feel good using a heat smash past 150 hours of playing tekken 8 because the character goes into special style for a second but it’s just part of the main game. I think also having a time limited bar is unnecessary and anxiety inducing when trying to just play the game of hit and don’t get hit back, it makes an already aggressive game more so by introducing moveset changes and effects that have less counter play just because they chose to go into heat. Low parry: -it should provide a full combo with tornado but worse damage scaling than a normal launcher I’ve heard that low parries were ‘op’ in tekken 7 but that doesn’t seem bad to me, it’s a high risk defensive option where you are not able to block and are vulnerable to launchers. By holding down forward all you have in terms of defence is to hit that low parry timing or abandon it (which means you didn’t really go for a low parry), so I think such risk should be rewarded with much more than ~45 damage without a wall. If tekken 8 is too aggressive then defence should be buffed. Rage arts: -once per match, after using up rage art you cannot go into rage for the rest of the match I think everyone is tired of watching the exact same cutscene after someone had the bright idea to press df1+2 to super armour when we were being too aggressive and we have to sit through it for possibly multiple times per match, how can a panic button be so damaging is crazy to me but again it’s for the casuals who already dropped tekken. Chip damage: -straight up just remove this, if someone has guessed right and blocked you then at the very least they should be rewarded in their defence by not taking damage. I know you can regenerate the health but I really believe that it’s too far to have chip damage, guard breaks, unblockables, power crushes and un-tech-able throws that are all either enabled/changed/buffed by the heat system, not saying all these should be removed but that chip damage is a unnecessary aggressive addition. These are my crazy takes from an unskilled tekken player, feel free to call skill issue. I feel like attacking feels the best in tekken 8 but defence feels terrible, and defence feels terrible not just because how easy attacking can be but the reward for blocking is only good when the attacker uses an unsafe move and you properly punish it so if the attacker uses safe heat engaging launchers that cause chip damage all you can respond with is attacking first.
@@detcader_ For being a new player, these are all great suggestions except for popping Heat and remaining in it. Imagine fighting a Ling in heat for the whole round. Nah, just, nah. Everything else is great though
About the Heat Engagers tracking, there's a clip of Brawlpro where he plays Lee against Devil Jin. He does a HE kick the same time DJ sidewalk behind him, AND IT HITS!
the heat dash wall crush mechanic was actually insane, cant believe we had to deal with that for a few months, also me throwing out lili's 3, 1 string just cause
I play multiple characters, and I’m not too concerned about heat engages EXCEPT heat engages with power crush properties. Those are too OP IMO. Also, I agree. Heat Smash moves still track too much while other characters seem to have zero tracking. I hate that.
Yeah it's unfortunate for Steve because all heat dashes are +5 but WR2 will give you full launch in heat so it's still a great buff to that move. Sonic Fang goes from -12 to +5, but no launch, so it's kinda balanced. I'm not sure if messing with heat dash frames is a good idea.
The problem with making minus moves into heat dash also become minus is that some characters only have heat engagers that are minus or unsafe, whereas other characters don’t. Not standardizing things would mean that certain characters will in every situation interact with the heat mechanic objectively better than other characters.
@@K-Wiss I agree with you that it can probably be improved upon. I heard PhiDX raise the same point as you, and I liked his idea until I started thinking about the moves at my disposal and realizing I would never be more than +2 (if it gave an additional flat +5, as he suggested). I suddenly didn’t like the idea anymore. :D
To a degree, this streamlined way of playing t8 where you enforce mixups for at least 30%-50% of the time genuinely gets repetitive, because if you're in a position to force the opponent to guess, you are winning. The only difference between all characters is how you get to that point where you do the same thing as everyone else. Like you and the pro's say, improved movement will create more opportunities to manuever around the brute force style of play. Better movement will seperate the levels of play better, where lower levels have clear skills to look towards learning to reach the next rank.
They made the guard breaks faster and unreactable too. Besides, tekken isn't really for casuals. They can close the gap but they'll never be ever to hang with the loyalist. They shouldn't try to tailor the game towards them, they're going to leave or stay regardless.
Great video, 7 was my first dive into playing a lot of Tekken so it's been cool to compare it to 8. Heat has been a fun mech to play with as a beginner, but I agree that engagers/dashes feel too strong, especially on moves that aren't risky. Being Bryan and having the threat of a gnarly combo/huge plus frames on an engager/dash as safe as Requiem, 1,2,4 or ss 2,1 feels pretty crazy, nothing like 7 where I'd have to think about using my rage drive a bit more. Stock/once per match characters too, I remember when Leroy got his cane move in 7 it felt so out of place, kind of in the same sense that the presence of 2d's felt but not quite as egregious. Even Bryan's new snake eyes charges concerned me, but I've ended up enjoying how it fits, tbh i only think that's cuz it feels overpowered. Heihachi getting a stock build with warrior stance was kinda sad to me as well, almost like the one character that shouldn't get that kinda thing did, and it invites a whole new consideration to your game that goes beyond the round you're playing. Higher value on aggressive play in tandem with chip damage too felt like ballsy additions, add in nerfed movement and you have a much different game than you did previously
I can’t understand why KBD had to be nerfed. Keep out is nerfed, there are giant new safe mid moves, more advancing moves, more punishment for being on defense, low parry is nerfed, access to damage is higher, heat exists All of that stuff makes rush down better. They didn’t also have to make it so you can’t even move out of the way or control the mid range. I think giant half screen moves need to go too and so do safe power crush heat engagers. And also harada I am so sorry but nobody bought tekken 8 because they heard KBD is nerfed. And if they did they probably don’t play the game anymore anyways. Might as well give the player base the game they want because they already cashed out. Now they need to keep us
7:54 I do feel like this makes sense but I think depending how you do it, it could create a ton of extra frame data to learn or it could exacerbate balance issues in the strength of various characters' heat. If safe moves were all plus by the same amount and unsafe moves were minus by the same amount maybe that would be an example of a middle ground that isn't too complicated. I think there's a lot of different ways to go about that kind of thing tbh.
To be fair SF6 does it with Drive Rush. It's gives every move a blanket +4 on Block if the move is used with Drive Rush. So you could do that here as well I think.
I think Quick match should not be limited by rank, I'm Tenryu and will on rare occasions get matched with Tekken emperor or tekken god with this new update, but i enjoy that since it gives me a chance to play against way higher level people and seeing how they play helps me improve so then going back into Rank ive improved since playing against these higher tiers.
Thank you for having a level headed critique of this game. I want this game to succeed but they seem to be stuck on stupid. I think Bamco is likely to give everyone an install for season 2 and say good luck 😅. As a casual who is trying to play more seriously in this game I would suggest some things: 1. Punish cheaters in every form from rage quitters, pc cheaters, intentional lag in this game. It is frustrating running into that and you report it and nothing is done. On top of that can we not keep being matched up with the people we report? 2. As a player with hand issues I would appreciate if they lessened tracking versus making movement hard for me to potentially do consistently? 3. I would like rage art to be lessened to maybe once a match. It just seems a bit too much of a crutch? 4. Potentially dial back the top ten while buffing the bottom 10? As playing I suspect a low tier character the disparity between top and low tier often seems borderline impossible. 5. Somehow allow more player expression of your character. Like eluded to in the video it seems characters are largely driven to play the same due to system mechanics? Thanks for the discussion 🙏
My main issue is heat engagers being too plus on hit for a forced 50/50 it should just be plus 1 or 2 just like heat burst on block and they should make rage arts slower on start up and remove all that damn tracking
I think +1 or 2 is a bit of a drastic change but I agree they should be less plus and I heavily agree on RA's. They track too well and will hit a lot faster in this game and them being -15 exactly is ridiculous
@@K-Wiss I feel like making heat engagers +5 to match the heat dash would probably be nice. Also makes it easier to sort of just be able to group both of them together and go "oh he used heat, he's +5". RA's should imo be like -26 or smth super big so you can get your absolute biggest launch, it's supposed to be a last ditch effort and you should get dispatched for it if it fails, some characters can't even launch it at -15. Even more of a reason to give it big minus frames is because in this game with recoverable health, you can have like 50% or more health and be in rage if you've recovered.
@@K-Wissit would be nice if they at least made them special mid so you can crouch block and get a ws launch for characters that don’t have a standing 15f launcher
I like your points. I think we dont need guard breaks. Its too OP. Especially if you can get a combo off it. And i think id like them to fix movement. Its too easy to get steam rolled in this game.
Okay so 1. A fighting mod without heat would definitely be cool. On the other hand I do appreciate that the heat system allows every character to function well. 2. If they don’t nerf anyone or ever change the heat system. At least please!!! Buff the movement!! Tekken tag back dash and forward dash movement would be nice in this game. It wouldn’t just be a constant 50/50 and it would also separate pros from noobs. Pros would have the experience and ability to execute moments when necessary. Noobs need to put the work and experience into learning when and how to. Also yes on a title like “Tekken God omega” for reaching beyond the highest rank. A infinite match with one person would be great. NA east coast has a horrible match up rate and it would be cool to match up with a player that wants to play as much as you do. Lastly nice video bro keeo doing what you do best👏🏼👏🏼💯
I agree about rank. Both adding an elo for the top top players and giving some kind of deathmatch option. I think the talk about stances and stocks is overblown. I see them as extensions of the characters. None of them have the same utility. Some are evasive, some heal, some mitigate damage, some push the advantage, some just offer new properties to moves. I'm cool with it as long as they're all different. I'm also cool with toning down how plus heat engagers are. You're supposed to be on the backfoot when you get hit with one, but as long as you can't act first, you should be able to defend yourself with more than just stand or duck. There's no real mind game there. The rest of the mixups are fair IMO. I'm a huge fan of active defense over option selects. You should get punished for choosing wrong, but you should have more than two options to choose from.
I'm just laughing cause it sounds crazy having +20 for these heat dashes when you say it like that. But we did all play that if we were here from the start.
I feel like ranked should be first to 3 and if you win all 3 you get bonus ranked points and if the opponent quits the first to 3 early you get bonus ranked points giving incentives for rematching and learning your opponent making fights more than just whooping a scrub and moving on really fast Or just not feeling your opponents flow chart immediately and losing ranked points for it it just feels unengageing especially on a game thats as aggressive as this one
Good memories from the launch of this game i remember the first month when you reached max rank, almost nobody was there so you fought Jodd in ranked all the time and i enjoyed watching it alot, you guys went crazy after each other like the ‘good old infinite rematch’ days as we say now lol.
I wonder if heat dashes (and maybe even engagers) would work better as a flat frame increase, similar to how Drive Rushes always provide normals exactly +4 frames. For example, heat dashes always provide +10 more frames when used on block. Therefore unsafe moves (like Hwo d/f+3+4) become safe, but are still negative. The problem with this is that plus on block heat moves (like RFF d/f+3) become incredibly plus on blocked heat dash, though.
I play dragunov and i really always liked him since 7 i love his aesthetic and he genuinely is very fun and always has been to me i 100% agree that he needs nerfs but i really hope they dont gut him beyond repair i really want him to live in tekken like wr2 losing some of its plus on block really saddened me doing frame perfect wr2s lost the fun and value and nerfing down 2 these are 2 core moves that have been with drag even before he became the giant he is today I miss poking and mindgaming with sidestepping over flowcharting with qcf4 and while crouch df 1 4 his 2 lows and just forcing that 50/50 of hey am i gonna launch or do 2 lows again is so lame Compared to sidestepping a move and instantly doing a frame perfect wr2 for that counter hit i just hope when he gets nerfed the state of the game had already changed drastically
The way to fix heat is to cut down the tracking on them, lower the plus frames of heat engagers on hit, and make them meter based. Players will become a lot more conservative with their heat if they know they don’t start the round with a full bar all the time. It would also inadvertently nerf Heihachi’s warrior’s instinct which is insanely strong and honestly feels like P2W if we’re just being honest 🤷🏾♂️. As far as the forced 50/50s go, I don’t know how they plan to fix that cause practically every character in the game was design to play that way….everything is either a forced 50/50 or a CH that leads to a launcher or some type of guaranteed follow up. 50/50 have always been prevalent in Tekken based on your character and playstyle, but they’re different in Tekken 8 because they don’t come somebody actually being good with the character, but from overall system changes and nobody likes that. With the game being so aggressive, I don’t think we should have guard breaks in the game. Having to choose between a guard breaking high that leads to a guaranteed follow up (in Heihachi’s case he can actually wall splat you for a full juggle), or a safe heat engager mid that leads to another forced 50/50 is just not good game design.
I think building meter for heat smash and rage art is the first issue they should fix. Have it so you keep your meter after each round too. This will fix alot of issue in my mind.
they only need to make heat building up whenever you play offensively! so all heat system benefits becomes a reward for your play style.. rather than getting full bar from start. plus they must buff movement.
I've constantly thought about the idea of heat being an "earned" mechanic but I think it just doesn't work without tweaking a lot of heat engagers and then fundamentally changing characters like Heihachi
I will say it. Tekken 8 could have been the best Tekken if only Defense was as strong as Offense. Maybe lean to Offense a bit more but enough where there is defense for it. If Heat also had defense options excluding heat burst. Something like a 50/50 shutdown universal reversal/parry/buff backdash/sidestep or something. Make defense fun too.
Heat should be focused on characters playing in heat rather than being able to use it then hail mary and put u in a 50/50 situation the heat dash should be like something to exhaust the rest of your heat for a slight advantage not something to put your opponent in a 50/50 to end rounds.. heat dash or engagers should be +5 at best and change engagers to only moves 0 - +5 on block no more than +8 on hit the engagers and dash seams more impactful than being in heat itself.
Me As a leo main player in bushin rank i enjoy Tekken 8 a lot,, i love the heat move and combos i can do in it, i can be more aggressive in this game, in Tekken 7 i had to be defensive and passive all the time waiting for opponent to attack so i can attack back, in Tekken 7 it felt like taking turns, punch/kick, block punch/kick, block,, but in Tekken 8 i can do much more because there is much flow and not felt like im in chains like Tekken 7
A mode without heat would be interesting as you said and it would really show how much heat is affecting the game and if that is the reason for most of the complaints (Im pretty sure it is xd). That mode would be cool to have even if they balanced heat tho
Heat Engagers are my #1 most hated thing in this game. One hit gives you +17 and a push towards the walls of death? How many matches where I was doing everything right until I get hit by a Heat Engager guess wrong twice and die. When I win this way I get an adrenaline boost but feel like a complete robber. Like a win doesn't feel completely earned after you hit a Heat Engager. Also how did the devs accomplish the magic of having better movement yet feel like you can't move at all while interacting. The string tracking and clipping is a mess it feels like you are navigating a glitch rather than a defensive option.
Hwo main here. Df34 and rfsdf3 are my go to heat engagers. Sometimes peace maker and flamingo b3 as well Second main: Azucena: F1+2, f44 and b3 are my go to heat engagers
I am an intermediate Tekken player (Asuka nad Reina at Raijin). The system should benefit me but I hate it with passion. Often I find myself lose to evidently worse player (no movement, spamming launchers + same combo or power crushes etc.). I spent a lot of time following the pro scene and that is where I learned my style, which you would call "small Tekken" and that simply does not work. At least not on my level.
my opinion as a scrub on heat: i dont like heat burst, dudes can just press it anytime to interupt offense. I dont like when you block heat smash and dude has some stance and im under huge stress because dude is now deciding what to mix me with. I would just keep some parts of the heat system. again, im bad at the game and i think i can have opinion too because i like grinding this game and learning it. Doesnt mean its good opinion so take it easy friends.
i think that nerfing heat for every character is very extreme because of how every character is built around heat that unless every character was reworked characters would feel janky and sluggish. im a panda player and ive tried not using some of the moves i would think would get nerfed if they did nerf heat and she becomes a mess but still having 50/50s. so at this point we are in to deep
This video broke down is probably how every player feels. Heat needs to be looked at, the meta needs to be nerfed etc. To be fair when we played 5-6 tag 2 there was no updates really, what ever they released is what you played for 2-3yrs. I’m sure next year it be in better spot
The problem I have with this game is that everyone is forced to play crazy but some have a much easier time of it than others. I play Leo and, while I'm nowhere near AyoRichie's level, I hate that he has to play out of his mind to win a tournament and other characters can just spam one move and get "broken" 50'50s. What's the point of character archetypes or different play styles when everyone is aggressive but some "aggressive" so much better than others? What's worse, if you successfully block a mix-up, you could still take chip damage like it's some 2D game. T8 can be pretty frustrating sometimes, especially since I started playing Tekken because it had no projectiles, short combos and no chip damage.
Another thing worth remembering for those people who want to say the Tekken 8 devs don't give a shit about balance and aren't even trying, there was a version of the game where you had *two* Heat Dashes per Heat activation. 8:28 - 8:35 Reina main, Lili secondary, and Lidia. SEN3 is a *really* good move with or without Heat. The problem with removing Heat is that you'd, basically, just be playing a much better looking Tekken 7 with better sidesteps at that point. I have a couple problems with the "launcher, into combo, into 50/50" sentiment, one of which is that it's an oversimplification of what Tekken has been since 5 if we're being honest about it. I am FAR from a pro level player, but in my experience of playing I don't feel like I'm guessing every second of every match like some people make it sound. If anything, the "just mash buttons, defense is pointless" idea of what a lot of people seem to think Tekken 8 is has made it "easier" than it should be for me to rank up so far. Maybe it just seems that way because I'm low rank, but I do feel like there's evidence of a player problem if I'm almost at Fujin after 132 wins, when it took me years to reach Ruler ranks in Tekken 7, and I don't think my Reina is as good as my Kazumi was.
2 things I want to talk about and THAT'S IT because I have a feeling people are still gonna criticize me when I make too many statements or opinions. 1. I'm a King main, and I want his heat smash damage to be nerfed to be 50 damage. I know every characters heat smash should be unique in some way, but his damage is insane and it's a mix-up on block, so yeah. 2. The safe on block power crush heat engagers. One of the most stupidest attacks in the game, in my opinion. They are insanely low iq comeback buttons that I think should be punishable on block, just like all power crushes. They already have weaknesses like ducking the high heat engagers, sidestepping, or giving a knockdown with a heat dash, but they immediately shut down your momentum when they do use it. Fun fact: Shaheen's only power crush (besides his heat burst) is a heat engager. Bruh 🤦
Hwoarang player here. Just the heat engage in general sucks the life out of the game imo, including as a hwoarang. Blue ranks if I hit it, they now have to guess whether I'm going D+3, 4 or mid for a launch or something. Takes the character away, less setups locked behind flamingo required and all characters start to look more the same with all this crap. Rage art in T7 was bad enough
Yeah I've got that feeling from this one too I used to be able to sit and play for hours but it's like the new one you get exhausted after an hour or two because how fast paced the game is it's just not as enjoyable anymore it's not like you're not playing chess anymore it's like handicap checkers lmao frfr
Give me my goddamn Tekken force mode. I jumped into the story mode as soon as i bought the game, arrived at the Tekken force part of it, and i was so hyped to do it with all the characters when i finish the story, just to realize that it doesn’t exist.
I just started tekken 8 competitively and started with Victor but use Raven now and it frustrates me how his fastest buttons are only jabs and not a lot of options stunning. maybe I need to get back in the lab since Im not even blue level yet but still seen enough to know I have less options than others.
I wonder if there even is still a way to fix the game given that the moveset of each character is part of the problem. They're all geared towards 50/50. They will have to remove moves to satisfy the fanbase at this point.
A character having 50/50s built-in their movesets isn't much of an issue. Having moves that *force* a 50/50 is a whole different issue, and a big one at that.
That first comment was too long, and I have a lot more to say, but I'll try to be quick on the stance thing. More characters having more stances just feels like a natural evolution of what Tekken's been doing for, like, 25 years. I, genuinely, can't imagine a Tekken character being so basic they don't have at least a couple moves that can only be done out of a specific input. That being said, some stances have some real bullshit attached to them. Alisa not being able to block while the chainsaws are out is a non-factor because she's plus all the time is just one example. Lastly, while I'm happy the dlc thus far hasn't repeated the Leroy and Fahk mistakes, Eddy can still choke on fat one, I don't like how all three have gone the route of adding more stances *and* a stock mechanic.
My biggest problem with the game is the devs killing execution for the benefit of making the game easier for casuals. Now things that only a few can do literally everyone does and its incredibly boring to not only play but also to watch. The reward factor isn't there anymore. When they release new characters they focus on, how do we make this character as accessible as possible? We are getting more and more "special style" Tekken where you press one button to do all without having to use special style. I think it's only going to get worse and nobody talks about it.
@@jessegonzalez9967 Idk what you mean, lots of chars that had hard tech still have tech. Lots of basic boring chars that never had hard optimal routes just don't. Asuka still has CH FC2 into full df2 that not enough people do. Jack still has his throw into frame perfect 14 mid, no one does that. I will say I am salty they changed DJ to where cool dash jab combos aren't meta but when I think of raw execution, I don't think this game is hard and T7 wasn't hard. Rage arts are HARDER to punish now lmao. TJU still in the game, I can't even think of anything else substantial, what did they dumb down execution wise? Make electrics guaranteed in heat? Who cares lol not very substantial if you ask me
@@xravenx24feI agree. There are a few things like Law’s DSS is easier now, and some characters are designed with easy strings but that’s pretty much it.
@@xravenx24febro this dude is yappin lmaooo all the hard executions that are done now with ease are only in Heat. 80% of matches are not in Heat lol he getting his shit railed by people in non hear and blaming it on being easier now lol some people just can’t grasp that games have evolved and so has people ability to learn inputs quicker
No yall are missing the point like dragunovs wr2. Wr moves have always been hard to do especially in someone's face. Now you can just spam wr plus frame moves like there's no tomorrow its to scrubby
@ no?? That shit was not hard to do in tekken 7 my guy lmaoo. This is literally just the first tekken a mass amounts of people decided to take tekken a bit seriously. You see it more often cus there’s more people playing the game.
My problem with Tekken 8 is just how much homing or tracking moves have that they never had in t7 or below Even with the buffed sidesteps it doesn’t really matter sometimes cause there’s no reason a move should clip you when you’re behind the other player or almost behind them☠️ Also this one might just be me as a skill issue but the game feels inconsistent. Like sometimes it feels like I’m stuck in mud and my character will do a punish a few frames late even though I do it right after the block stun
adjusting the most egregious tracking moves and buffing movement allows for the same game to be played at lower levels by casuals and a much more fair game at the top by high rank and pro level players. It seems like its the best way to balance the game without gutting the core design philosophy of Tekken 8. Perhaps standardizing the movement across all characters would go a long way, its really frustrating playing a character with both a terrible backdash and sidestep against opponents that heavily lock you down or have a staple move that tracks too well. Sometimes if your characters side step is trash even their sidewalk doesnt avoid tracking moves well enough. Nerfing power crush heat engagers (not sure how without removing the crush) and buffing combo dmg on a low parry seems like a decent move too. Low parries rarely happen by mistake and should be rewarded accordingly since its far more risky than simply blocking. Low parries dont have to reward a player with FULL combo dmg but adjust it to be a bit more rewarding.
Yes and no. I think we should let the game design and philosophy rock for some time with minor changes (aggressiveness is fine but I think the health of the cast should be increased). What they should fix though, is bugs (homing, hitboxes, weird interactions etc.)
I play Lidia and I think all her heat engagers are pretty fair, B2 is strong for sure but it is i18 so I don't think its too egregious. The thing that bugs me to the most is the fact that some characters are basically unsteppable, like some moves will just auto correct their tracking and hit you from behind etc etc. Heat smashes also, the fact that some are crazy difficult to step and others can be stepped easily. Infinite rematch absolutely must be a thing, the worst feeling when you come across a player that is fun to play against, good back and forth etc and then you just can't play them again. Sucks.
if they will not nerf the damages I recommend increasing hp 25 percent more. That will give you 1 launcher and 2 50/50 before your dead. That sounds fair at least.
I've tried to like this game really I do but I just cannot get around the way the tekken 8 is played. I'm used to an aggressive/reactive style game plan there never should of had chip damage, and while I see it's uses recoverable health makes it so when you actually punish a character they just gain their health back that just feels backwards to me. Tekken 8 values the aggressive/ masher too much in this game.
It does feel like rn the game feels really repetitive, because I think its clear they wanted the game played in a certain way with each character. Previous tekkens (not just 7) it felt like you had more freedom to play how you wanted. Now it definitely feels like theres a clear sequence you follow that does boil down to crouch guarding/standing or powercrush/parry/rage artting
in tekken 7 i was unbeatable inside of my family. then tekken 8 came out and my nephews started to beat me and sometimes they actually perfected me by mashing a random button. the reason is it confuses me when to react. but instead of sulking it and complaining how bad tekken 8 is. i just started to change my strategies. started to study and learn the new mechanics and it actually work. im back as the unbeatable tekken 8 player.
As a completely new player the biggest detriment for me to get into tekken isn't so much the game itself, but the negative and hostile community, it's far worse than in any other game I've played. Hopefully some positive system/balance changes can make people have fun again
Heatengagers only +5 on hit. Heatdashing from unsafe heatengagers gives away the attackers turn. Heatsmashes on block resets neutral. Heatbursts equally linear across the entire cast. Heat fixed?
My entire problem with this game is the weird inconsistency of side stepping moves and how a completely “stepable” can hit you even on a hard read. Side step lees ff3 3 times in one match I dare you lol
@ yeah it just feels super weird of how I feel like I do the same thing sidestepping 5 times and 2 of them just get me blown up lol. I guess I mean linear moves should be linear completely
I always found Arslan's comment interesting since at my Low Level of play I felt this way about T7. I managed to eventually get to Tekken Emperor just before T8 came out but the game basically felt like CH launcher into Long Combo into 50/50. And in T8 I feel like I'm getting CH/Launched much less so I have more options in the Neutral game. I wonder if it's just Pros being able to use/abuse every tool at their disposal - so the holes in systems are showing more - while players like me are playing Scrappy Unoptimal Tekken. I guess SF6 gets away with DR into Move etc affecting the frame data of individual moves on Block so I suppose Heat Dash Cancels on Block could do the same?
Speaking of drastic leaps...people don't talk enough about how stupid DJ'S b3 is. Pretty much evades entire movelists and if you call it out they go from -18 to +5 by doing a heat dash. Just because DJ is overall average doesn't excuse this dumbass move.
He has spoken about the problems with this game regardless of wins and losses and this tweet that sparked everything didn't even come from a tournament results
i definitely agree with this like heihachi on warriors instinct he can do spinning around and yet those moves are safe and cannot be punished =( what a joke
I play every character except the BEARS and Leo. Am confident we'll see more changes to combat, good and bad, in the coming years. As someone who can't do conversion combo's: "Tekken needing to be fixed", sounds like a skill issue :D I just play less to keep enjoying the game... instead of getting sick of getting hit by the same moves over and over. ^_^
You made a good video, ppl in the comments made good points about heat, knee/Arslan made good points about heat, the aggressiveness but we're almost to Christmas of 2024. If they didn't address heat in the 1st 6 months of the games life cycle, its pointless to be critical. Wont get us anywhere. They saw the tweets and arguments on Twitter. They saw TH-cam videos all year long and didn't do anything.
Well, like I mentioned in this video they did. We had the heat burst tracking nerf back in June (?) that also came with the nerf to heat dashes and those were very good changes most of the community were happy with. And they did state at the start of the season that they weren't really looking to do big balance changes in the first year so they can give the game some time to breathe and really see if things are a problem or not. I think Season 2 is really where we can see where they want to go with the game
@K-Wiss You're right they did say that. Season 3 won't have the player count it should if season 2 doesn't yield any benefits. Don't think anyone has touched on this. There's a loud part of the playerbase that hates when tekken 8 is critiqued. They don't have problems with heat and they will acknowledge every counter argument as a conspiracy theory. Trillions of examples on Twitter.
Rage drive was perfect imo. You didnt get access to it until you hit rage. If heat followed this system like a bar build up system or a 1 time use per match then i think things would change for the better. To have full heat available every round with everything else is too much. Powercrush is ridiculous also, only characters like jack and bears maybe bryan should have a powercrush with limited amount of times they can use it (1 per round) like Leroy's cane. Rage art should be accessible via combo only and should allow players to sacrifice rage to perform 1 heat burst instead. Theres just Too many 1 button high damage options currently but this change would be balanced. Guard break should have limitations or cooldowns to allow better defensive planning. Chip damage should just be removed i dont think anyone really likes it. It only benefits certain characters. Yoshimitsu Flash should knock down (same knock down as kazuyas 112) with no guaranteed follow up possible and spin away should have a cooldown after each use and limited use per game. People will have to choose their OP moments carefully and better game strategy can be applied switching from full aggression to defence based on your cooldowns and availability.
The game is actually really amazing offline. Online is fun for what it is. The second I hop online and a heat smash tracks my step after missing initially I'm instantly jumping back to the game sucks side though.
Very good stuff you are suggesting. Removing rage arts from ranked would also be nice. I don’t understand why you call yoshi a problem character. I would rather say that many other characters should get increased defensive options(movement could solve some stuff maybe). Also, yoshi haven’t done that well in the pro scene. He hasn’t done horribly, but also not that good. Wait until he starts being a top 5-10 character in tournaments before you ask for nerfs. But like i said, good suggestions - the few that you brought up!
@K-Wiss Results from KaneAndTrench and Sin on Liquipedia and in TWT. I’m pretty sure a Jin, Law, Shaeen, Drag, King, Nina, Kuma, Bryan(maybe), Victor, Claudio have done better with their top players. Im not sure about the best Eddy, Asuka, Safina, Feng and Alisa, but I think their best players also might be around the same reaults of the best yoshi players as of now. I’m not saying Yoshi isn’t op, but I think it is much less clear based on tournament results - compared to some of the other characters which are considered op. And i think it is best to base nerfs and buffs - at least to a large degree - off of the results from pro lvl tournaments and results. If yoshi starts dominating in tournaments, I won’t mind him getting nerfed. But for now, i think there is a chance that he is over rated.
@@EmadeesMusic Yoshi has a lot of representation in Top 8's and has a TWT tournament win this season. The times we don't see Yoshi in Top 8, it's normally because on of the top Yoshi players just wasn't at that tournament and that's been a consistent trend throughout the year. Also you can't base nerfs and buffs mainly off of tournaments because results don't exist in a vacuum But taking tournaments out of the equation, an objective look at Yoshi's kit is why he is a consensus top 3 character by most of the playerbase.
i lowkey think heat engagers should leave you at round start distance at the same advantage heat dash leaves you at so they arent just in your face free to throw a mix at you it would lead to a less straight aggression approach so both sides have to think about what to do next not just do i block low or mid tell me if im dumb tho
i also think heat burst mid combo should not re bound it should only allow a combo ender like heihachi omen etc. because as it stands rn it allows some characters to get so much more damage especially in situations that heat burst bound allows you to get to the wall on top of being in heat so you just hit them with 80+ damage and now youre in their face at the wall with ever single advantage at your disposal bc youre already in heat thus again making you have to guess mid or low
I think we should just let Hwoa block in flamingo at this point, make 4 3 from left flamingo gaurd break, and while where at it make us auto low parry in any flamingo stance. And all the people who complain about it. Skill issue.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 87 วันนี้!! คู่เอก "ก้องชัย vs โชคปรีชา"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YN6e7HVnekw/mqdefault.jpg)
We fix tekken 8 by adding Akuma and giving him not only heat but sf6 drive rush
The saviour we didn't know we needed
Bloody brilliant
Yes. This. 👌
Imagine if Kazuya beat Akuma at the end of T7. The only reasonable solution is to bring in Cyber Akuma.
Technically there all akuma...
Also I’m in full agreement with you k wiss. I’m fine with aggression but I want to be able to side walk and sidestep properly and not get clipped
This !... I get clipped every.single.time i step ! Why ! Lol it's so lame but over all im okay with the heat system .... just buff defense to balance out offense.
Yes. Side steps have always been shit in Tekken. They are much better in Virtua Fighter where they are kind of "scripted" ( what I mean by tha tis that a side step is an action that happens when you short press up or down, it's a command move ) . In VF, if you step the correct direction and correct timing , you can NOT be hit. The game simply don't allow it: it gives you invincibility frames during the step (again, IF and only you step direction is compatible with the move you're trying to escape)
You can I promise you, the game ain’t perfect but one thing that most definitely works is the defense.
I think maybe they should make kbd more viable again so people don’t just do mindless offence. I don’t mind the heat tho
@ now that I do know. It’s only a few in particular but they’re all over the #t8_report
The fixes needed are :
1) good defensive tools to all characters not only to top 10
2)we need sidewalk and sidestep buffed
3) fix hitboxes because Nina's slide shouldn't clip hwoarang's orbital ( the opposite should be happening)
4) heat moves shouldn't be safe and that plus
K-Wiss gonna quit the game if hwo moves are not plus
@@burhanerginn Are you just going to leave comments on my channel crying about Hwoarang? Like everytime you do it Hwoarang is barely mentioned, who traumatised you to this point lmaooo
@@burhanerginn the only thing Hwoarang has is those plus frames, which by the way (most of them) are easily steppable . Hwoarang is linear and has to risk and work hard in every mixup in order to win on high level. You have a game in which everyone is aggressive and safe so....unsafe hwoarang should be the least of your concerns.
@@K-Wiss probably hasn't labbed the character....so I don't blame him. But yeah, everyone is eager to say something negative in Tekken these days. Just enjoy the game and work hard if you have a weak match up.
SILENCE, God of Destruction/Professional Tekken Player….
A Garyu is speaking. 🤣
Tbh you are the majority and tekken is catered to you so we should respect your authority here lol
@ Honestly…. Yes. 💅🏾✨
@@aracystic28 wait actually. depends on what character you play?🤨
YT K-Wiss talking about tekken is such a nice dude 10/10 saved my cat out of a burning house. On the other hand K-Wiss playing tekken is a menance 1/10, spits in my face, would not recommend
With Tekken 7 if I encountered a weaker player than myself I felt like I was in total control of the match and I could control the pace - Skill would almost always prevail over the long run…
However in Tekken 8 if I encounter a weaker player I feel like I have very little control, and if you respect them too much or try to play a logical game then it’s easy to get inadvertently steamrolled - and before you know it they’re riding off into the sunset taunting and teabagging thinking they’ve achieved something…
This is basically the Tekken experience for any half decent player now….
This game has 0 dopamine release for taking the time to learn and apply the new counters and techniques. I remember in tekken 7 before I found out that were jump over wall techs back in season 0-1, on TH-cam, I was in practice with lee randomly stumbling upon it. This game literally is just a pick up and play. No thinking just auto pilot
@ Casino really does some it up perfectly - and I find it sickening that a fundamentally sound player with an 80-90 defence stat can have the rug pulled out from under them by a player with no frame knowledge and a defence stat of 40
@@Skeksi_Man "Random BULLSHIT GO!" The videogame
@@Skeksi_Managree i main kazumi on 7 and i do good poking, good defense, spacing and now i main nina kishin with 82 defense but i still get steamrolled by someone who is braindead and has like 30 defense jesus
Bro literally!! Getting characters to blue rank used to be a real accomplishment, I had my jin at like byakko and it took forever (Jin was really hard to play and my first Mishima )
- Heat engager need massive frame nerfs +17 is crazy.
- Heat burst “look at me I’m mashing” animation needs to be edited out so Sidestepping & whiff punishing them can be more fluent
- heat smash should be parry able (rage drives were in T7 why not HS) and low parryable
- Heat dash should give a guaranteed follow up instead of full combo on hit ( but make it off axis where it’s possible to get a combo near wall if u have the skill) also frame nerfs
- Rage arts should be jab checkable like T7
- Rage art should only be once a match but only when it hits( if it’s blocked u get it next round and so on until it hits)
- Rage should time out if player recovers 25% of his/her health ( just look at the Yoshi clip where he recovers his entire hp bar in 1 combo and is still left in rage afterwards)
- Powercrush heat engagers need to leave asap
- All strings should have tracking like drag b3 4
- Chip damage should be limited to WR moves, powercrushes, and regular moves in heat
- lowkey buff backdash
I love all of this. Only thing I would add is remove rage art completely. Then this is perfect lol
first good changelist ive read, love the once a match ragearts. All strings having tracking though? ru trolling? taking away massive defensive counterplay in an already incredibly aggressive game to that level is crazy.
@@aflockofbricks8988 drag b3 4 does not track anymore, so actually means lower tracking on all strings
man they'll probably never do this but i'd like to see them make wr moves hard again
I like all of these ideas except for the tracking stuff, then again every character getting a move like that is interesting, but to balance things further on the defense side i wish for sidesteps to be buffed. If you’re minus or maybe even just slightly + you’ll get clipped by things you otherwise should have dodged. It might sound stupid but I feel that we should be able to sidestep some moves on minus as it’d prevent people from not only being jailed against a blockstring against a wall, but facilitate evasive plays that look cool and are fun to watch
The DLC characters becoming 'stance characters with stocks' is so real, and i think that severely plays into the complaints of 50/50's in the game. Steve's Lion Heart, Ling's Hypnotist, Lidia's Heaven & Earth, and now Heihachi's new stance (whatever it's called) all feel like stances that literally exist just to force you to make a quick 50/50. Idk why they're doing this, it's dumb.
Anyway, Miguel is going to be the winter DLC character and will have a new stance that functions like Negan's intimidation and have a "Dead Sister" stock that activates with he fights Jin.
@theflaffywaffe It's gonna be Miguel and his b1 will be a heat engager and I will cry
Why the hell would you give me false hope like that. I've been praying for Miguel and I'm not even religious
Miguel’s b4 is 100% gonna be a heat engager
Wait LTG boyfriend is coming back
Also what makes me sad about Lee is even he is a rush down character now, there hardly is any room for defensive styles in this game
I've watched 18 seconds of this video and I can confidently say that hwoarang bad Arslan ash goated always right very good no nuanced discussion needed
Ok serious comment after watching:
While Hwo (my main) seems to have reasonable heat engagers, I'm not a fan of the ws3 guaranteed followup with df3+4 to force a mixup situation or free heat engage. It's unsafe which is nice for balance reasons, but the intention is clear to move towards easier access to heat - feels weird to me imo. I agree with Arslan's original statement, it's obvious there's a bit of hyperbole but the intention and call for a more interesting/varied approach to character design is clear. Overall can't wait to see where the game goes in the future, I've been having a ton of fun with the game and started recording/posting videos for the first time in quite awhile lol
No no, you were right with the first one. @Dotxygaming
Tl;dr give hwoarang a guard break
Hwoarang needs buffs is all I heard 😂
FACTS
He absolutely doesn't.
@@livingashtree1942 lel, agreed.
😅
I think the game would be much closer to perfect if chip was nerfed significantly. I think the amount of chip on some characters in heat make this game much more stressful than it needs to be. I think it should stay, but not lose you whole healthbar in 5 seconds blocking if you aren't careful. Defensive prowess is what makes tekken feel so rewarding to me at least and I feel like they've covered up that skill set too much with this game and a little needs to be brought back into the game.
Chip doesn't even need to be in the game lol with the 50/50s in this game
God i'd love if quickfights had infinite rematches, i played around 200h of t8 at this point, and played MAYBE against 10 kumas, max 5 of them knew what they were doing. If i could've stayed with them and trained i would've been so happy
this'll be a long comment but I appreciate anyone who wants to read and respond
figure I'll start with credentials just like you did. been playing Tekken casually since T3, got more serious in T7 and reached purple ranks in that game. Steam says I have about 3000 hours in it. currently in T8 I'm at blue but that's partly due to playing less ranked. in any case that means I have about 20 years experience playing Tekken, about 5 of which I've been playing more seriously
with that out of the way, here's what I have to say:
it seems to me that the fundamental issue here is feature creep. let me explain
from T1 to T3 the formula stayed mostly the same. highs, mids, lows, throws and unblockables. with very few exceptions, those were the categories of attacks. combos were limited since there was no bound, tailspin or tornado and no walls. overpowered moves or setups were the result of oversights, errors or bugs on the part of the developers, not the result of intended behavior. there were no special moves, no meter or install mechanics, no rage, no heat and almost no guard breaks, and no power crush or armor of any kind. by the standards of many other fighting games, early Tekken could be said to have been a game that only featured normal attacks, with no burst mechanic, no supers, just good old normals and movement. this is what a lot of older Tekken players mean when they talk about old school Tekken as being more fundamentals based, since there were fewer easy answers to rely on
the other thing that differentiates old Tekken from new Tekken is the number of moves in the game overall. back then there were generally fewer characters to choose from, and those characters had fewer attacks available to them compared to the large movelists you see in Tekken today. this meant that there was a much shorter learning period between picking up the game for the first time and reaching the point of having a good working level of matchup knowledge on every character in the game. characters simply had fewer moves, meaning it took less time to learn to play both as and against them, and with fewer characters in the game it was a more realistic goal to expect to be able to learn all of them at least reasonably well within a reasonable amount of time. this was also made easier by the aforementioned lack of additional attack types and mechanics
from T4 onwards, features began to be added that complicated the state of the game. T4 added walls, with T5 refining the mechanic. T6 added rage and bound. T7 gave us tornado spin, added armor in the form of power crush and expanded rage to feature specials called rage drives and supers called rage arts, as well as introducing street fighter style super meters and dash cancelling for the first time thanks to the inclusion of Akuma in the game, not to mention the "new tactics" wall crush mechanic. now here we are in T8 with the logical progression leading to tornado spin and heat, as well as the additional feature of many characters now having unique install mechanics. throughout the years Namco have continued to add new characters to the franchise and new moves to the characters' movelists, generally preferring to add content rather than remove, to increase the game's complexity rather than simplify it. however you feel about it, one thing that can't be denied is we've come a long way from those humble beginnings. simply put, it's a lot
and that's really the thing. in fighting games we talk a lot about "mental stack", or the amount of information a player is required to process or actively consider and be aware of at a given point during play. the notion is that the real victory is won in a match by giving your opponent so much to think about that they aren't able to deal with it all, causing them to make poor decisions, bad reads, execution drops or simply freeze up with indecision. you want them to be overwhelmed by the sheer weight of information they have to keep in their head, essentially overloading their mental processing. well, that mental processing is a lot harder to maintain if your opponent has 100 moves including armor, supers, guard breaks and stance mixups than if they only have 50 highs, mids and lows and maybe a throw or two. scale that up to the whole cast and the learning curve becomes significantly more daunting and the mental stack factor much more oppressive, especially for new players who are unfamiliar with the existing characters and moves and have to learn it all from the ground up to stand a chance
for comparison, Tekken 3 had 23 characters with what I want to say was an average of around 50 moves each, maybe less. no bound, no wall, no armor, no heat, no rage. Tekken 8 comes with all those features plus unique installs, and that's with 34 characters many of whom have closer to 100 moves, some even more, with more characters and moves to be added in future updates. for the record, T7 started with 36 characters and by the time of its final update that was up to 51
what I'm saying is all the crap they keep adding is the real problem. there's no use adding more features to attract new players when the thing turning them away from the game in the long run is how impossibly bloated and oversaturated everything about it is to begin with. of course we can zero in on the forced 50/50s, the homogenization of the cast into stance based rushdown characters, the proliferation of armor and guard breaks etc. but all those things strike me as a symptom of this one overarching issue which is Namco's lack of confidence in the core systems on which this entire series has been built from day one - namely the simple, gimmick free fundamentals based gameplay that set Tekken apart from its competition in the first place. they keep layering extra things on top and it only serves to dilute what was already a winning formula. trying to compensate for the bloat by adding easy panic moves and forced mixups to appeal to button mashing noobs hasn't actually made it any easier for them, it's just made the whole experience more toxically braindead in a way that doesn't really enhance the player experience but actively hurts it. these mechanics depress people, they make players both old and new feel bad because it doesn't feel fair to get hit by all this overpowered nonsense
all this game really needs is less of everything. fewer characters, fewer moves, fewer mechanics. that's how you make it accessible to new players, by actually simplifying the game so they don't have to get a phd in tekkenology just in order to play it. that's how you make it enjoyable for legacy players, by removing the unnecessary gimmicks and focusing on the core gameplay that has kept them hooked all this time. that's how you foster a legendary competitive scene, by listening to your pro players and working together with them to create a game that allows them to truly demonstrate its potential for your general audience to see and get inspired by
but what do I know, I'm just some guy on the internet
Ok
Dude, I read this thing front to back and it was a dissertation on Game Design and Game Theory. Well done seriously 👏
I think the only thing missing from your arguments here is the fact that Tekken caught the eye of newer Players because it was just a bit snappier than the other 3D Fighters in its animations. DOA does a lot of skipping and makes the characters look like you're playing with action figures and Virtua Fighter goes for a more realism approach which unfortunately doesn't always attract an audience. Tekken found a middle ground between those which appeals to a wider audience, somewhat understandable and "realistic" animations that were stylised.
I think Tekken 8 tried to capture the feeling of that heightened reality and turn it up just a little bit more than it already had and that was the idea behind Heat visually.
I completely agree though. It's the same reason people don't want to get into One Piece. When you see all the features and Moves Tekken has on offer it's like 100 Attacks 30+ times and that is going to push away potential Players on the face of it. I suppose that's the idea behind Special Style. They made it so you don't have to get so overwhelmed by the enormous Move Lists, but that in and of itself reveals an issue in that the Game is so genuinely nuanced and multifaceted that picking it up for the first time in 8 is a legitimate task. You have to learn Sidesteps, Highs, Mids, Lows, Throws, Homing Moves, Armour Moves, Counter-Hit Moves, Parries, Stances, Stance Cancels, Crouching, While Standing Moves, Rage Art, Heat Burst, Heat Smash, Heat Dash, the list goes on. Having to learn all that for your first Tekken probably takes so long. I'm lucky I started in 7 so that I had an accelerated learning process on these Heat Mechanics. All I had to do was learn what the Game wanted from me insofar as my Heat Usage and that Sidestepping was better. That's all I had to learn, but new Players jumping in? Good fucking luck.
TL:DR
In my opinion I think we need to give Harada and co time to work on the heat system. It’s a new mechanic in its first year with no arcade release, and even T7 had some problems after getting 2 years to stew in the arcades
it's overtuned on purpose, they're not nerfing it not because they're not sure or don't know, it's delibaretely strong and obnoxious
Great discussion. As someone who has not played T8 much at all due to college I am very in-tune with whats happening with the game and the players' feelings towards it. I would like to see heat re-looked at as well and safe powercrush heat engagers should be gone imo.
8:18 is SOOOO TRUE. Specifically powercrush heat engagers annoy me. It just feels insane when they tank hits, slam you to the wall, heal and then are already in your face at +15 frames.
I’m a new gen player currently using Lee in fujin right now, 650 hours.
Personally I would like to see a cleaner and more concise tekken, and these are my very uneducated takes and what should be changed: please take with a whole shaker of salt
Heat:
-heat should not be a bar, but a singular state similar to how being in rage is
-heat smash should only come out if the first hit connects and not on block/whiff
-when heat is activated, you can stay in it as long as you don’t use it with a heat smash/heat dash etc
-heat burst should not stop the flow of the game (no cutscene)
-heat smash should have zero tracking except maybe the first hit
-heat dash moves have the same frames as normal versions
Personally I enjoy heat burst extended combos and having an alternative heat launchers can be fun sometimes but the one button heat smash just caters to casuals who have already dropped tekken to play black ops 6, I never feel good using a heat smash past 150 hours of playing tekken 8 because the character goes into special style for a second but it’s just part of the main game. I think also having a time limited bar is unnecessary and anxiety inducing when trying to just play the game of hit and don’t get hit back, it makes an already aggressive game more so by introducing moveset changes and effects that have less counter play just because they chose to go into heat.
Low parry:
-it should provide a full combo with tornado but worse damage scaling than a normal launcher
I’ve heard that low parries were ‘op’ in tekken 7 but that doesn’t seem bad to me, it’s a high risk defensive option where you are not able to block and are vulnerable to launchers. By holding down forward all you have in terms of defence is to hit that low parry timing or abandon it (which means you didn’t really go for a low parry), so I think such risk should be rewarded with much more than ~45 damage without a wall. If tekken 8 is too aggressive then defence should be buffed.
Rage arts:
-once per match, after using up rage art you cannot go into rage for the rest of the match
I think everyone is tired of watching the exact same cutscene after someone had the bright idea to press df1+2 to super armour when we were being too aggressive and we have to sit through it for possibly multiple times per match, how can a panic button be so damaging is crazy to me but again it’s for the casuals who already dropped tekken.
Chip damage:
-straight up just remove this, if someone has guessed right and blocked you then at the very least they should be rewarded in their defence by not taking damage.
I know you can regenerate the health but I really believe that it’s too far to have chip damage, guard breaks, unblockables, power crushes and un-tech-able throws that are all either enabled/changed/buffed by the heat system, not saying all these should be removed but that chip damage is a unnecessary aggressive addition.
These are my crazy takes from an unskilled tekken player, feel free to call skill issue. I feel like attacking feels the best in tekken 8 but defence feels terrible, and defence feels terrible not just because how easy attacking can be but the reward for blocking is only good when the attacker uses an unsafe move and you properly punish it so if the attacker uses safe heat engaging launchers that cause chip damage all you can respond with is attacking first.
Also #T8_report
@@detcader_ For being a new player, these are all great suggestions except for popping Heat and remaining in it. Imagine fighting a Ling in heat for the whole round. Nah, just, nah. Everything else is great though
About the Heat Engagers tracking, there's a clip of Brawlpro where he plays Lee against Devil Jin.
He does a HE kick the same time DJ sidewalk behind him, AND IT HITS!
the heat dash wall crush mechanic was actually insane, cant believe we had to deal with that for a few months, also me throwing out lili's 3, 1 string just cause
I play multiple characters, and I’m not too concerned about heat engages EXCEPT heat engages with power crush properties. Those are too OP IMO.
Also, I agree. Heat Smash moves still track too much while other characters seem to have zero tracking. I hate that.
Jack is example. Compared to Victor b+1+2 heat engager power crash, come on. Who so champs got better tools than others?
Bro the air gear intro 🔥🔥🔥
I find it incredibly funny how Steve's running 2 goes from +6 to +5 if you heat dash out of it.
It gets worse.
Yeah it's unfortunate for Steve because all heat dashes are +5 but WR2 will give you full launch in heat so it's still a great buff to that move.
Sonic Fang goes from -12 to +5, but no launch, so it's kinda balanced.
I'm not sure if messing with heat dash frames is a good idea.
@@KrisDee1981As a Steve player I agree
The problem with making minus moves into heat dash also become minus is that some characters only have heat engagers that are minus or unsafe, whereas other characters don’t. Not standardizing things would mean that certain characters will in every situation interact with the heat mechanic objectively better than other characters.
That is a fair point but I still think something needs to change with heat dash at some point in the future
@@K-Wiss I agree with you that it can probably be improved upon. I heard PhiDX raise the same point as you, and I liked his idea until I started thinking about the moves at my disposal and realizing I would never be more than +2 (if it gave an additional flat +5, as he suggested). I suddenly didn’t like the idea anymore. :D
To a degree, this streamlined way of playing t8 where you enforce mixups for at least 30%-50% of the time genuinely gets repetitive, because if you're in a position to force the opponent to guess, you are winning. The only difference between all characters is how you get to that point where you do the same thing as everyone else.
Like you and the pro's say, improved movement will create more opportunities to manuever around the brute force style of play. Better movement will seperate the levels of play better, where lower levels have clear skills to look towards learning to reach the next rank.
They made the guard breaks faster and unreactable too. Besides, tekken isn't really for casuals. They can close the gap but they'll never be ever to hang with the loyalist. They shouldn't try to tailor the game towards them, they're going to leave or stay regardless.
Great video, 7 was my first dive into playing a lot of Tekken so it's been cool to compare it to 8. Heat has been a fun mech to play with as a beginner, but I agree that engagers/dashes feel too strong, especially on moves that aren't risky. Being Bryan and having the threat of a gnarly combo/huge plus frames on an engager/dash as safe as Requiem, 1,2,4 or ss 2,1 feels pretty crazy, nothing like 7 where I'd have to think about using my rage drive a bit more. Stock/once per match characters too, I remember when Leroy got his cane move in 7 it felt so out of place, kind of in the same sense that the presence of 2d's felt but not quite as egregious. Even Bryan's new snake eyes charges concerned me, but I've ended up enjoying how it fits, tbh i only think that's cuz it feels overpowered. Heihachi getting a stock build with warrior stance was kinda sad to me as well, almost like the one character that shouldn't get that kinda thing did, and it invites a whole new consideration to your game that goes beyond the round you're playing. Higher value on aggressive play in tandem with chip damage too felt like ballsy additions, add in nerfed movement and you have a much different game than you did previously
I can’t understand why KBD had to be nerfed. Keep out is nerfed, there are giant new safe mid moves, more advancing moves, more punishment for being on defense, low parry is nerfed, access to damage is higher, heat exists
All of that stuff makes rush down better. They didn’t also have to make it so you can’t even move out of the way or control the mid range.
I think giant half screen moves need to go too and so do safe power crush heat engagers.
And also harada I am so sorry but nobody bought tekken 8 because they heard KBD is nerfed. And if they did they probably don’t play the game anymore anyways. Might as well give the player base the game they want because they already cashed out. Now they need to keep us
7:54 I do feel like this makes sense but I think depending how you do it, it could create a ton of extra frame data to learn or it could exacerbate balance issues in the strength of various characters' heat.
If safe moves were all plus by the same amount and unsafe moves were minus by the same amount maybe that would be an example of a middle ground that isn't too complicated. I think there's a lot of different ways to go about that kind of thing tbh.
To be fair SF6 does it with Drive Rush. It's gives every move a blanket +4 on Block if the move is used with Drive Rush. So you could do that here as well I think.
Powercrushing heat engagers shouldn’t be a thing
I think Quick match should not be limited by rank, I'm Tenryu and will on rare occasions get matched with Tekken emperor or tekken god with this new update, but i enjoy that since it gives me a chance to play against way higher level people and seeing how they play helps me improve so then going back into Rank ive improved since playing against these higher tiers.
Thank you for having a level headed critique of this game.
I want this game to succeed but they seem to be stuck on stupid. I think Bamco is likely to give everyone an install for season 2 and say good luck 😅.
As a casual who is trying to play more seriously in this game I would suggest some things:
1. Punish cheaters in every form from rage quitters, pc cheaters, intentional lag in this game. It is frustrating running into that and you report it and nothing is done. On top of that can we not keep being matched up with the people we report?
2. As a player with hand issues I would appreciate if they lessened tracking versus making movement hard for me to potentially do consistently?
3. I would like rage art to be lessened to maybe once a match. It just seems a bit too much of a crutch?
4. Potentially dial back the top ten while buffing the bottom 10? As playing I suspect a low tier character the disparity between top and low tier often seems borderline impossible.
5. Somehow allow more player expression of your character. Like eluded to in the video it seems characters are largely driven to play the same due to system mechanics?
Thanks for the discussion 🙏
My main issue is heat engagers being too plus on hit for a forced 50/50 it should just be plus 1 or 2 just like heat burst on block and they should make rage arts slower on start up and remove all that damn tracking
I think +1 or 2 is a bit of a drastic change but I agree they should be less plus and I heavily agree on RA's. They track too well and will hit a lot faster in this game and them being -15 exactly is ridiculous
@@K-Wissi also think counters and parrys should be more punishable like flash and jins parry
@@K-Wissthe amount of times a yoshi has just thrown out flash and i try to punish with b3 and get punished for it is insane
@@K-Wiss I feel like making heat engagers +5 to match the heat dash would probably be nice.
Also makes it easier to sort of just be able to group both of them together and go "oh he used heat, he's +5".
RA's should imo be like -26 or smth super big so you can get your absolute biggest launch, it's supposed to be a last ditch effort and you should get dispatched for it if it fails, some characters can't even launch it at -15.
Even more of a reason to give it big minus frames is because in this game with recoverable health, you can have like 50% or more health and be in rage if you've recovered.
@@K-Wissit would be nice if they at least made them special mid so you can crouch block and get a ws launch for characters that don’t have a standing 15f launcher
I like your points. I think we dont need guard breaks. Its too OP. Especially if you can get a combo off it. And i think id like them to fix movement. Its too easy to get steam rolled in this game.
Okay so
1. A fighting mod without heat would definitely be cool. On the other hand I do appreciate that the heat system allows every character to function well.
2. If they don’t nerf anyone or ever change the heat system. At least please!!! Buff the movement!! Tekken tag back dash and forward dash movement would be nice in this game. It wouldn’t just be a constant 50/50 and it would also separate pros from noobs. Pros would have the experience and ability to execute moments when necessary. Noobs need to put the work and experience into learning when and how to.
Also yes on a title like “Tekken God omega” for reaching beyond the highest rank. A infinite match with one person would be great. NA east coast has a horrible match up rate and it would be cool to match up with a player that wants to play as much as you do. Lastly nice video bro keeo doing what you do best👏🏼👏🏼💯
I agree about rank. Both adding an elo for the top top players and giving some kind of deathmatch option. I think the talk about stances and stocks is overblown. I see them as extensions of the characters. None of them have the same utility. Some are evasive, some heal, some mitigate damage, some push the advantage, some just offer new properties to moves. I'm cool with it as long as they're all different. I'm also cool with toning down how plus heat engagers are. You're supposed to be on the backfoot when you get hit with one, but as long as you can't act first, you should be able to defend yourself with more than just stand or duck. There's no real mind game there. The rest of the mixups are fair IMO. I'm a huge fan of active defense over option selects. You should get punished for choosing wrong, but you should have more than two options to choose from.
I'm just laughing cause it sounds crazy having +20 for these heat dashes when you say it like that. But we did all play that if we were here from the start.
I feel like ranked should be first to 3 and if you win all 3 you get bonus ranked points and if the opponent quits the first to 3 early you get bonus ranked points giving incentives for rematching and learning your opponent making fights more than just whooping a scrub and moving on really fast
Or just not feeling your opponents flow chart immediately and losing ranked points for it it just feels unengageing especially on a game thats as aggressive as this one
Bro looking crispy in the thumbnail🔥
Good memories from the launch of this game i remember the first month when you reached max rank, almost nobody was there so you fought Jodd in ranked all the time and i enjoyed watching it alot, you guys went crazy after each other like the ‘good old infinite rematch’ days as we say now lol.
I wonder if heat dashes (and maybe even engagers) would work better as a flat frame increase, similar to how Drive Rushes always provide normals exactly +4 frames.
For example, heat dashes always provide +10 more frames when used on block. Therefore unsafe moves (like Hwo d/f+3+4) become safe, but are still negative.
The problem with this is that plus on block heat moves (like RFF d/f+3) become incredibly plus on blocked heat dash, though.
Haven't watched your videos for a very long time. This is one of your best ones. Glad to be alive to watch it.
I play dragunov and i really always liked him since 7 i love his aesthetic and he genuinely is very fun and always has been to me i 100% agree that he needs nerfs but i really hope they dont gut him beyond repair i really want him to live in tekken like wr2 losing some of its plus on block really saddened me doing frame perfect wr2s lost the fun and value and nerfing down 2 these are 2 core moves that have been with drag even before he became the giant he is today
I miss poking and mindgaming with sidestepping over flowcharting with qcf4 and while crouch df 1 4 his 2 lows and just forcing that 50/50 of hey am i gonna launch or do 2 lows again is so lame
Compared to sidestepping a move and instantly doing a frame perfect wr2 for that counter hit i just hope when he gets nerfed the state of the game had already changed drastically
The way to fix heat is to cut down the tracking on them, lower the plus frames of heat engagers on hit, and make them meter based. Players will become a lot more conservative with their heat if they know they don’t start the round with a full bar all the time. It would also inadvertently nerf Heihachi’s warrior’s instinct which is insanely strong and honestly feels like P2W if we’re just being honest 🤷🏾♂️.
As far as the forced 50/50s go, I don’t know how they plan to fix that cause practically every character in the game was design to play that way….everything is either a forced 50/50 or a CH that leads to a launcher or some type of guaranteed follow up. 50/50 have always been prevalent in Tekken based on your character and playstyle, but they’re different in Tekken 8 because they don’t come somebody actually being good with the character, but from overall system changes and nobody likes that.
With the game being so aggressive, I don’t think we should have guard breaks in the game. Having to choose between a guard breaking high that leads to a guaranteed follow up (in Heihachi’s case he can actually wall splat you for a full juggle), or a safe heat engager mid that leads to another forced 50/50 is just not good game design.
I think building meter for heat smash and rage art is the first issue they should fix. Have it so you keep your meter after each round too. This will fix alot of issue in my mind.
they only need to make heat building up whenever you play offensively! so all heat system benefits becomes a reward for your play style.. rather than getting full bar from start.
plus they must buff movement.
I've constantly thought about the idea of heat being an "earned" mechanic but I think it just doesn't work without tweaking a lot of heat engagers and then fundamentally changing characters like Heihachi
I will say it. Tekken 8 could have been the best Tekken if only Defense was as strong as Offense. Maybe lean to Offense a bit more but enough where there is defense for it. If Heat also had defense options excluding heat burst. Something like a 50/50 shutdown universal reversal/parry/buff backdash/sidestep or something. Make defense fun too.
Heat should be focused on characters playing in heat rather than being able to use it then hail mary and put u in a 50/50 situation the heat dash should be like something to exhaust the rest of your heat for a slight advantage not something to put your opponent in a 50/50 to end rounds.. heat dash or engagers should be +5 at best and change engagers to only moves 0 - +5 on block no more than +8 on hit the engagers and dash seams more impactful than being in heat itself.
Me As a leo main player in bushin rank i enjoy Tekken 8 a lot,, i love the heat move and combos i can do in it, i can be more aggressive in this game, in Tekken 7 i had to be defensive and passive all the time waiting for opponent to attack so i can attack back, in Tekken 7 it felt like taking turns, punch/kick, block punch/kick, block,, but in Tekken 8 i can do much more because there is much flow and not felt like im in chains like Tekken 7
A mode without heat would be interesting as you said and it would really show how much heat is affecting the game and if that is the reason for most of the complaints (Im pretty sure it is xd). That mode would be cool to have even if they balanced heat tho
Heat Engagers are my #1 most hated thing in this game. One hit gives you +17 and a push towards the walls of death? How many matches where I was doing everything right until I get hit by a Heat Engager guess wrong twice and die. When I win this way I get an adrenaline boost but feel like a complete robber. Like a win doesn't feel completely earned after you hit a Heat Engager.
Also how did the devs accomplish the magic of having better movement yet feel like you can't move at all while interacting. The string tracking and clipping is a mess it feels like you are navigating a glitch rather than a defensive option.
Hwo main here. Df34 and rfsdf3 are my go to heat engagers. Sometimes peace maker and flamingo b3 as well
Second main: Azucena: F1+2, f44 and b3 are my go to heat engagers
I am an intermediate Tekken player (Asuka nad Reina at Raijin). The system should benefit me but I hate it with passion. Often I find myself lose to evidently worse player (no movement, spamming launchers + same combo or power crushes etc.). I spent a lot of time following the pro scene and that is where I learned my style, which you would call "small Tekken" and that simply does not work. At least not on my level.
my opinion as a scrub on heat: i dont like heat burst, dudes can just press it anytime to interupt offense. I dont like when you block heat smash and dude has some stance and im under huge stress because dude is now deciding what to mix me with. I would just keep some parts of the heat system.
again, im bad at the game and i think i can have opinion too because i like grinding this game and learning it. Doesnt mean its good opinion so take it easy friends.
i think that nerfing heat for every character is very extreme because of how every character is built around heat that unless every character was reworked characters would feel janky and sluggish. im a panda player and ive tried not using some of the moves i would think would get nerfed if they did nerf heat and she becomes a mess but still having 50/50s. so at this point we are in to deep
This video broke down is probably how every player feels. Heat needs to be looked at, the meta needs to be nerfed etc. To be fair when we played 5-6 tag 2 there was no updates really, what ever they released is what you played for 2-3yrs. I’m sure next year it be in better spot
The problem I have with this game is that everyone is forced to play crazy but some have a much easier time of it than others.
I play Leo and, while I'm nowhere near AyoRichie's level, I hate that he has to play out of his mind to win a tournament and other characters can just spam one move and get "broken" 50'50s. What's the point of character archetypes or different play styles when everyone is aggressive but some "aggressive" so much better than others? What's worse, if you successfully block a mix-up, you could still take chip damage like it's some 2D game. T8 can be pretty frustrating sometimes, especially since I started playing Tekken because it had no projectiles, short combos and no chip damage.
Another thing worth remembering for those people who want to say the Tekken 8 devs don't give a shit about balance and aren't even trying, there was a version of the game where you had *two* Heat Dashes per Heat activation.
8:28 - 8:35 Reina main, Lili secondary, and Lidia. SEN3 is a *really* good move with or without Heat.
The problem with removing Heat is that you'd, basically, just be playing a much better looking Tekken 7 with better sidesteps at that point.
I have a couple problems with the "launcher, into combo, into 50/50" sentiment, one of which is that it's an oversimplification of what Tekken has been since 5 if we're being honest about it. I am FAR from a pro level player, but in my experience of playing I don't feel like I'm guessing every second of every match like some people make it sound. If anything, the "just mash buttons, defense is pointless" idea of what a lot of people seem to think Tekken 8 is has made it "easier" than it should be for me to rank up so far. Maybe it just seems that way because I'm low rank, but I do feel like there's evidence of a player problem if I'm almost at Fujin after 132 wins, when it took me years to reach Ruler ranks in Tekken 7, and I don't think my Reina is as good as my Kazumi was.
2 things I want to talk about and THAT'S IT because I have a feeling people are still gonna criticize me when I make too many statements or opinions.
1. I'm a King main, and I want his heat smash damage to be nerfed to be 50 damage. I know every characters heat smash should be unique in some way, but his damage is insane and it's a mix-up on block, so yeah.
2. The safe on block power crush heat engagers. One of the most stupidest attacks in the game, in my opinion. They are insanely low iq comeback buttons that I think should be punishable on block, just like all power crushes. They already have weaknesses like ducking the high heat engagers, sidestepping, or giving a knockdown with a heat dash, but they immediately shut down your momentum when they do use it.
Fun fact: Shaheen's only power crush (besides his heat burst) is a heat engager. Bruh 🤦
Hwoarang player here. Just the heat engage in general sucks the life out of the game imo, including as a hwoarang. Blue ranks if I hit it, they now have to guess whether I'm going D+3, 4 or mid for a launch or something. Takes the character away, less setups locked behind flamingo required and all characters start to look more the same with all this crap. Rage art in T7 was bad enough
Why isnt rage art like -28 on block its a hail mary move let everyone be able to like just do it whatever
Yeah I've got that feeling from this one too I used to be able to sit and play for hours but it's like the new one you get exhausted after an hour or two because how fast paced the game is it's just not as enjoyable anymore it's not like you're not playing chess anymore it's like handicap checkers lmao frfr
Give me my goddamn Tekken force mode. I jumped into the story mode as soon as i bought the game, arrived at the Tekken force part of it, and i was so hyped to do it with all the characters when i finish the story, just to realize that it doesn’t exist.
All heat engagers should be +8 on hit max. Chunky advantage but if you commit to a big mixup I can atleast sidewalk.
I just started tekken 8 competitively and started with Victor but use Raven now and it frustrates me how his fastest buttons are only jabs and not a lot of options stunning. maybe I need to get back in the lab since Im not even blue level yet but still seen enough to know I have less options than others.
Claudio currently, 3,2 is 12-13 frames and an insane punish option. I use it at least 12 times a set
I wonder if there even is still a way to fix the game given that the moveset of each character is part of the problem. They're all geared towards 50/50. They will have to remove moves to satisfy the fanbase at this point.
A character having 50/50s built-in their movesets isn't much of an issue.
Having moves that *force* a 50/50 is a whole different issue, and a big one at that.
That first comment was too long, and I have a lot more to say, but I'll try to be quick on the stance thing. More characters having more stances just feels like a natural evolution of what Tekken's been doing for, like, 25 years. I, genuinely, can't imagine a Tekken character being so basic they don't have at least a couple moves that can only be done out of a specific input. That being said, some stances have some real bullshit attached to them. Alisa not being able to block while the chainsaws are out is a non-factor because she's plus all the time is just one example. Lastly, while I'm happy the dlc thus far hasn't repeated the Leroy and Fahk mistakes, Eddy can still choke on fat one, I don't like how all three have gone the route of adding more stances *and* a stock mechanic.
My biggest problem with the game is the devs killing execution for the benefit of making the game easier for casuals. Now things that only a few can do literally everyone does and its incredibly boring to not only play but also to watch. The reward factor isn't there anymore. When they release new characters they focus on, how do we make this character as accessible as possible? We are getting more and more "special style" Tekken where you press one button to do all without having to use special style. I think it's only going to get worse and nobody talks about it.
@@jessegonzalez9967 Idk what you mean, lots of chars that had hard tech still have tech. Lots of basic boring chars that never had hard optimal routes just don't. Asuka still has CH FC2 into full df2 that not enough people do. Jack still has his throw into frame perfect 14 mid, no one does that. I will say I am salty they changed DJ to where cool dash jab combos aren't meta but when I think of raw execution, I don't think this game is hard and T7 wasn't hard. Rage arts are HARDER to punish now lmao. TJU still in the game, I can't even think of anything else substantial, what did they dumb down execution wise? Make electrics guaranteed in heat? Who cares lol not very substantial if you ask me
@@xravenx24feI agree. There are a few things like Law’s DSS is easier now, and some characters are designed with easy strings but that’s pretty much it.
@@xravenx24febro this dude is yappin lmaooo all the hard executions that are done now with ease are only in Heat. 80% of matches are not in Heat lol he getting his shit railed by people in non hear and blaming it on being easier now lol some people just can’t grasp that games have evolved and so has people ability to learn inputs quicker
No yall are missing the point like dragunovs wr2. Wr moves have always been hard to do especially in someone's face. Now you can just spam wr plus frame moves like there's no tomorrow its to scrubby
@ no?? That shit was not hard to do in tekken 7 my guy lmaoo. This is literally just the first tekken a mass amounts of people decided to take tekken a bit seriously. You see it more often cus there’s more people playing the game.
My problem with Tekken 8 is just how much homing or tracking moves have that they never had in t7 or below
Even with the buffed sidesteps it doesn’t really matter sometimes cause there’s no reason a move should clip you when you’re behind the other player or almost behind them☠️
Also this one might just be me as a skill issue but the game feels inconsistent. Like sometimes it feels like I’m stuck in mud and my character will do a punish a few frames late even though I do it right after the block stun
adjusting the most egregious tracking moves and buffing movement allows for the same game to be played at lower levels by casuals and a much more fair game at the top by high rank and pro level players. It seems like its the best way to balance the game without gutting the core design philosophy of Tekken 8. Perhaps standardizing the movement across all characters would go a long way, its really frustrating playing a character with both a terrible backdash and sidestep against opponents that heavily lock you down or have a staple move that tracks too well. Sometimes if your characters side step is trash even their sidewalk doesnt avoid tracking moves well enough. Nerfing power crush heat engagers (not sure how without removing the crush) and buffing combo dmg on a low parry seems like a decent move too. Low parries rarely happen by mistake and should be rewarded accordingly since its far more risky than simply blocking. Low parries dont have to reward a player with FULL combo dmg but adjust it to be a bit more rewarding.
Yes and no. I think we should let the game design and philosophy rock for some time with minor changes (aggressiveness is fine but I think the health of the cast should be increased). What they should fix though, is bugs (homing, hitboxes, weird interactions etc.)
I play Lidia and I think all her heat engagers are pretty fair, B2 is strong for sure but it is i18 so I don't think its too egregious.
The thing that bugs me to the most is the fact that some characters are basically unsteppable, like some moves will just auto correct their tracking and hit you from behind etc etc. Heat smashes also, the fact that some are crazy difficult to step and others can be stepped easily.
Infinite rematch absolutely must be a thing, the worst feeling when you come across a player that is fun to play against, good back and forth etc and then you just can't play them again. Sucks.
if they will not nerf the damages I recommend increasing hp 25 percent more. That will give you 1 launcher and 2 50/50 before your dead. That sounds fair at least.
They should have made it like geese.
Give Characters actual special combos like sf and kof but with the base of tekken
I've tried to like this game really I do but I just cannot get around the way the tekken 8 is played. I'm used to an aggressive/reactive style game plan there never should of had chip damage, and while I see it's uses recoverable health makes it so when you actually punish a character they just gain their health back that just feels backwards to me. Tekken 8 values the aggressive/ masher too much in this game.
It does feel like rn the game feels really repetitive, because I think its clear they wanted the game played in a certain way with each character. Previous tekkens (not just 7) it felt like you had more freedom to play how you wanted. Now it definitely feels like theres a clear sequence you follow that does boil down to crouch guarding/standing or powercrush/parry/rage artting
in tekken 7 i was unbeatable inside of my family. then tekken 8 came out and my nephews started to beat me and sometimes they actually perfected me by mashing a random button. the reason is it confuses me when to react. but instead of sulking it and complaining how bad tekken 8 is. i just started to change my strategies. started to study and learn the new mechanics and it actually work. im back as the unbeatable tekken 8 player.
As a completely new player the biggest detriment for me to get into tekken isn't so much the game itself, but the negative and hostile community, it's far worse than in any other game I've played.
Hopefully some positive system/balance changes can make people have fun again
Heatengagers only +5 on hit.
Heatdashing from unsafe heatengagers gives away the attackers turn.
Heatsmashes on block resets neutral.
Heatbursts equally linear across the entire cast.
Heat fixed?
My entire problem with this game is the weird inconsistency of side stepping moves and how a completely “stepable” can hit you even on a hard read. Side step lees ff3 3 times in one match I dare you lol
A lot of that will come down to timing of *when* you try to ss a move but I do agree, Lee's ff3 is a big offender of this
His ff3 is one of his best moves in the game. I struggle stepping it to@@K-Wiss
@ yeah it just feels super weird of how I feel like I do the same thing sidestepping 5 times and 2 of them just get me blown up lol. I guess I mean linear moves should be linear completely
I run Law & Laws 111 in heat is crazy 😂😂😂 confirmable 10 frame CH launcher .
I always found Arslan's comment interesting since at my Low Level of play I felt this way about T7. I managed to eventually get to Tekken Emperor just before T8 came out but the game basically felt like CH launcher into Long Combo into 50/50. And in T8 I feel like I'm getting CH/Launched much less so I have more options in the Neutral game. I wonder if it's just Pros being able to use/abuse every tool at their disposal - so the holes in systems are showing more - while players like me are playing Scrappy Unoptimal Tekken.
I guess SF6 gets away with DR into Move etc affecting the frame data of individual moves on Block so I suppose Heat Dash Cancels on Block could do the same?
They need to add a legacy mode, no heat and/or no rage
Hell yeah, delete rage art!! Or nerf it!! 1/3 of health is way too much.
@ also remove power crush
And no tornado/screw/bound. Shorts combos + fast paced game
So.... you dont like any mechanic added since t5
damn!! nailed it
Speaking of drastic leaps...people don't talk enough about how stupid DJ'S b3 is. Pretty much evades entire movelists and if you call it out they go from -18 to +5 by doing a heat dash. Just because DJ is overall average doesn't excuse this dumbass move.
I primarily play Lee. But I ABUSE the combo system and 50/50 wall mixup with Ling Xiaoyu lol. The game is kind of a nightmare right now.
Arslan Ash reminds me of those NBA players that would blame the refs for their losses but wouldn’t speak a word about them after he wins.
He has spoken about the problems with this game regardless of wins and losses and this tweet that sparked everything didn't even come from a tournament results
i definitely agree with this like heihachi on warriors instinct he can do spinning around and yet those moves are safe and cannot be punished =( what a joke
It’s okay when they 50/50 me. It’s not okay when they get hit
I play every character except the BEARS and Leo. Am confident we'll see more changes to combat, good and bad, in the coming years.
As someone who can't do conversion combo's: "Tekken needing to be fixed", sounds like a skill issue :D
I just play less to keep enjoying the game... instead of getting sick of getting hit by the same moves over and over. ^_^
I would like Akuma to come back as well... wouldn't mind a Ranked mode WITHOUT rematching, I lose almost every rematch. :D
Im surprised arslan knew word "volatile" 😮
You made a good video, ppl in the comments made good points about heat, knee/Arslan made good points about heat, the aggressiveness but we're almost to Christmas of 2024.
If they didn't address heat in the 1st 6 months of the games life cycle, its pointless to be critical. Wont get us anywhere. They saw the tweets and arguments on Twitter. They saw TH-cam videos all year long and didn't do anything.
Well, like I mentioned in this video they did. We had the heat burst tracking nerf back in June (?) that also came with the nerf to heat dashes and those were very good changes most of the community were happy with. And they did state at the start of the season that they weren't really looking to do big balance changes in the first year so they can give the game some time to breathe and really see if things are a problem or not. I think Season 2 is really where we can see where they want to go with the game
@K-Wiss You're right they did say that. Season 3 won't have the player count it should if season 2 doesn't yield any benefits.
Don't think anyone has touched on this. There's a loud part of the playerbase that hates when tekken 8 is critiqued. They don't have problems with heat and they will acknowledge every counter argument as a conspiracy theory. Trillions of examples on Twitter.
Rage drive was perfect imo. You didnt get access to it until you hit rage. If heat followed this system like a bar build up system or a 1 time use per match then i think things would change for the better. To have full heat available every round with everything else is too much. Powercrush is ridiculous also, only characters like jack and bears maybe bryan should have a powercrush with limited amount of times they can use it (1 per round) like Leroy's cane. Rage art should be accessible via combo only and should allow players to sacrifice rage to perform 1 heat burst instead. Theres just Too many 1 button high damage options currently but this change would be balanced. Guard break should have limitations or cooldowns to allow better defensive planning. Chip damage should just be removed i dont think anyone really likes it. It only benefits certain characters. Yoshimitsu Flash should knock down (same knock down as kazuyas 112) with no guaranteed follow up possible and spin away should have a cooldown after each use and limited use per game. People will have to choose their OP moments carefully and better game strategy can be applied switching from full aggression to defence based on your cooldowns and availability.
The game is actually really amazing offline. Online is fun for what it is. The second I hop online and a heat smash tracks my step after missing initially I'm instantly jumping back to the game sucks side though.
Very good stuff you are suggesting. Removing rage arts from ranked would also be nice.
I don’t understand why you call yoshi a problem character. I would rather say that many other characters should get increased defensive options(movement could solve some stuff maybe).
Also, yoshi haven’t done that well in the pro scene. He hasn’t done horribly, but also not that good. Wait until he starts being a top 5-10 character in tournaments before you ask for nerfs.
But like i said, good suggestions - the few that you brought up!
When you say Yoshi hasn't done well in the pro scene, what are you basing that off?
@K-Wiss Results from KaneAndTrench and Sin on Liquipedia and in TWT. I’m pretty sure a Jin, Law, Shaeen, Drag, King, Nina, Kuma, Bryan(maybe), Victor, Claudio have done better with their top players. Im not sure about the best Eddy, Asuka, Safina, Feng and Alisa, but I think their best players also might be around the same reaults of the best yoshi players as of now.
I’m not saying Yoshi isn’t op, but I think it is much less clear based on tournament results - compared to some of the other characters which are considered op. And i think it is best to base nerfs and buffs - at least to a large degree - off of the results from pro lvl tournaments and results. If yoshi starts dominating in tournaments, I won’t mind him getting nerfed. But for now, i think there is a chance that he is over rated.
@@EmadeesMusic Yoshi has a lot of representation in Top 8's and has a TWT tournament win this season. The times we don't see Yoshi in Top 8, it's normally because on of the top Yoshi players just wasn't at that tournament and that's been a consistent trend throughout the year. Also you can't base nerfs and buffs mainly off of tournaments because results don't exist in a vacuum
But taking tournaments out of the equation, an objective look at Yoshi's kit is why he is a consensus top 3 character by most of the playerbase.
I play leroy and he has his 1+2, 1+2, 1+2. Which is safe and hit confirmable but yeah other then that he has hermit stance 1+2, 1+2
*Everyone complaining about other characters 50/50's
Meanwhile the Lars community: 😈🤐🤫
Got a friend that was stuck in yellow with hei in t7 he is now blue with hei in t8.
i lowkey think heat engagers should leave you at round start distance at the same advantage heat dash leaves you at so they arent just in your face free to throw a mix at you it would lead to a less straight aggression approach so both sides have to think about what to do next not just do i block low or mid tell me if im dumb tho
i also think heat burst mid combo should not re bound it should only allow a combo ender like heihachi omen etc. because as it stands rn it allows some characters to get so much more damage especially in situations that heat burst bound allows you to get to the wall on top of being in heat so you just hit them with 80+ damage and now youre in their face at the wall with ever single advantage at your disposal bc youre already in heat thus again making you have to guess mid or low
I think we should just let Hwoa block in flamingo at this point, make 4 3 from left flamingo gaurd break, and while where at it make us auto low parry in any flamingo stance. And all the people who complain about it. Skill issue.