They could entice Warmode to allow enabled people to get the coins and the winner gets more. I would love that. You get blood coins even if you get ambushed and ganked, but the ambusher gets more coins.
The only way pvp succeeds on this server based on its current design is if the bloody coin reward system is actually interesting and genuinely rewarding. So yeah I agree. Otherwise it ends up like all the other warmode servers, dead pvp and a one dimensional open world
Provided you only get those tokens for winning the battle if you’re within like 5 levels of the other player, then sure. If you’re getting a reward you should have to earn it.
The warmode might work if: a) Those rewards for PvPing are good b) People get rewarded even when they lose. For example if you win you get 5 of those blood coins but only 1 when you lose.
The lore implications of an undead paladin is what interest me the most, and how it would manifest uniquely when translated into gameplay. We know undead priests are in constant suffering using their powers, but push through due to their great will and actual body durability. For paladins, this is far more pronounced due to how deeply connected they are with the light itself. Haven't watched the video yet, but here's to hoping they do something with that!
@@robinostertag871 That is true, however they are ultimately human and mortal, remained so. Undead is a state of existence we know is in violation of that.
Only humans and dwarves are paladin, the other are the paladin archtype. It is written paladins use strong conviction, the Light favors conviction and a sense of justice. Game mechanics aside, you dont channel the Light as Priests do. Much like Shamans dont actually wield magic, neither do these paladins wield the Light but the Light does come to them. This is how the Scarlets can use the Light to enforce great evil.
I agree with you on the warmode points. It often feels like devs who add a warmode actually just want a pve server, but also want some way to entice the pvp crowd into their game without thinking of the balancing issues that it brings. It acts like a permanent pvp flag without any changes, which puts warmode players at a massive disadvantage to scummy people. Personally, if I were to implement a Warmode, it'd have these two features: 1) People can only engage on you if they're within your level range (basically, if they're not ?? or skull to you). This ensures that only people you have a reasonable chance of fighting back against will roll up on you. Barring twinks, of course, but they will always and forever be a nuisance to any level bracket. However, limiting it to only the engager needing to be within level means that you can still "punch up", so to speak, for comical or roleplaying reasons. Duels and battlegrounds can still function as normal, but the primary idea is to counter the most common complaint of people playing on a pvp server - Level 60 ganking. This might be a bit too far, but I feel like Ascension has the right idea in terms of bracketing open world pvp. Nobody likes getting stomped by someone you had no chance of winning against, and the only people who seem to advocate for it are the people *doing* the stomping, in my experience. 2) Make it so players without warmode enabled can't engage you without flagging for pvp first. It might seem like an arbitrary distinction, but "bluewalling" is a major complaint of a lot of warmoders on Turtle (at least, the ones who actually take it to pvp), because it disables any possible forward thinking you could have unless you treat literally every other player as if they're going to fight you - which is a very stressful and unhealthy way to play the game. Instead of going "oh there's a red name, I'd better be prepared to fight them or charge them before they have a chance to engage on me", it's like "Oh neat I'm getting globaled by someone who I didn't even know was *interested* in fighting me." There's a massive tactical advantage to staying "cloaked" in pve mode, and plenty of players absolutely do make use of this advantage to dick on warmoders, as well as the defensive benefit to being able to hide and drop flag so you can't counter-gank them. Ideally these features would also come with other flagging mechanics changes, like increasing the time it takes for a flag to fall off so people can't effectively "blue-wall", but just these two major changes would do so much to make pvp a lot more enjoyable for the people that take it. Also, keep FAR the fuck away from any pve incentive to take the mode, so it ensures that anyone who takes warmode is actually doing it for the pvp and not some dinky experience buff.
I agree with 2 but not with 1. I have played games where they did that and it made lower level players become the bullies while max lvs couldnt do anything about it. I think if weapon skill and spell resist just wasnt a thing in pvp then at least you can damage a max level and even take one down with a group
Yeah I really don't like turtle wow's handling of warmode. 30% exp is pretty crap and not at all a pvp incentive, it just makes toxic players that mock anyone not using it, calling them stupid and the ganking is absolutely a problem there (though actually not as bad as it was in vanilla/classic), especially if you make a mistake as an HC and some asshole 60 1 shots you at the level 1-5 zone. I think the bloody coin idea is a good one. I'd probably throw custom gear and even trinkets on there for low level. Things like a 5 min cd 3 second root trinket, a 10-15% bonus hp cooldown trinket, or maybe a grenade trinket. Maybe they could make a rocket boots trinket. The stuff available should be really good. I do agree with some of your ideas, I just don't know how hard it is to implement such things.
I've never liked openworld pvp except for when I myself am the max level. It's rarely EVER a fair fight, and some people are so toxic that they will literally camp the crap out of you. I am very glad it's not a forced pvp server.
I feel like people are being very unfair with this. I actually engage in pvp whenever I can and I've never in my life been griefed to the degree that some people claim is happening based on the fact that they literally want pvp DELETED from the game. It's concerning to me because I'm the type of guy that wants fairness above my own ego and wants. Deleting pvp from the game and pretending it's nothing but toxicity and unfairness because you lose to someone with 2 levels over you makes me sad. As I've said, it would be extremely easy to eliminate griefing and camping from the equation but devs and players either don't have the competence or the willingness to do it, so we get lazy design or we keep griefers, every, single, time. I'd just wonder what people's excuses would be to not have a pvp ruleset in their faction-based war rpg in a world in which griefing, camping, and generally toxic pvp behavior is planned around and stamped out? I think at that point the truth would surface, and that is that people's egos are making them irrationally angry over getting ganked and losing to a similarly leveled player in Arathi Highlands or STV. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but it's just weird to me that people can't just say, "I hate losing, so I don't want to pvp" which is a totally fair opinion, but requires them to tell the truth about it.
@@Mcdoubles Yeah I agree with OP. To be fair it’s been a LONG time since I’ve played on a PvP server but generally I was getting ganked by max/high levels (I was 40s getting ganked by 60-70s in BC) all the time. They’d even camp sometimes because…reasons.
@@Mcdoubles Man, sorry but i disagree. I remember when the Kronos honor rollout came and instantly, EVERYONE questing in Searing Gorge was getting ambushed by 60 rogues. You couldn't quest, at ALL. I remember the hell it was to even step in Nostalrius' Un'goro because of the number of level 60s camping Devilsaurs that would twoshot you. I can't speak for your experience, but i can speak for mine, and more often than not, it's not a excuse, it's a real thing. I'm not interested in my time being used for someone else's fun to a detriment of my own. It's not fun, and there's no ammount of lore that will change that. A good example of that is Turtle Westfall being plagued by twinks that are killing warmode lowbies that just wanted the 30% more exp. Those people aren't PvPers, and you saying it's just excuses is a bit misguided.
@@Mcdoubles Man I loved pvp in wow, I almost exclusively pvp'd from tbc-mop. But I absolutely despise open world pvp. There's nothing fair about it. The closer to vanilla you get the more it's rock paper scissors. You never see a warrior try to gank a frost mage, but you always see a rogue gank a warlock. Then there's RNG, nothing like an orc resisting your 5pt kidney. If you look at pve, there's clear synergy between the classes, this translates into pvp as well. Not only do they make each other stronger, they shore up each others weaknesses The classes/gearing/scaling aren't built for 1 v 1's imo. Don't get me wrong, there's some fun exceptions like rogue vs mage. But it's this loss of agency that saps the fun out of it for me. When I 2 shot someone I don't feel like I earned it, and when I get 2 shot I don't feel like there was anything I could do. I played a geared ele sham in retail vanilla. If I had natures swiftness and ZHC up there was basically nothing anyone could do. Furthermore, open world pvp being rampant encourages pvp specs. Which means no healers and tanks to level with. Although this could be addressed with a low-cost dual spec. "I'd just wonder what people's excuses would be to not have a pvp ruleset in their faction-based war rpg in a world in which griefing, camping, and generally toxic pvp behavior is planned around and stamped out?" I can tell you right now, for me it's less about toxicity and more about it simply not being fun. TLDR Vanilla class balance is closer to checkers than chess and renders 1 v 1's unfun. If I saw more class balance coming out of these servers I might change my tune. But most of them seem to either be stuck on the "vanilla feel" trip or the complete opposite and load the classes with infinite damage just exacerbating the issues. I'll admit, I suspect adjusting either damage output or health pools and adding strategically placed defensives/mobility would change my feelings. "I hate losing when I have no recourse, so I don't want to open world pvp"
I appreciate your opinion on Warmode in most servers. My hunch is that you are right about it. I'm pretty excited with the changes they are making and how professional they seem to be with it all. I just hope to see a few more class changes down the road.
Did you notice that in the opening flyby cutscene for Oblivion that there is a sailing vessel .. sailing up the river. Sadly that never happens in game. There are maybe two quests in the entire game where they say that the ship that you're on is moving, but it doesn't actually do that. Even if they were just collisionless textures sailing by, that would have been cool.
The “only 10% of open world PvP is toxic” line is so bizarre. Ganking is by far the most common way a fight starts, specifically because of the advantage it gives. The person initiating the fight gets to pop their offensive CDs and tailor their first two GCDs to start the fight in the most unfair way possible. Instanced PvP remains popular on retail and pservers even as world PvP erodes because in no era or server are ganks “only 10%” of World PvP engagements. If folks actually want world PvP to be a thing, removing all PvE incentives and disincentives would go a long way to reducing the pain points.
Ganking itself is not toxic. It's the game. The response to a healthy pvp encounter where you get ganked by a player leveling in the same zone as you is to find them and gank them back once, or say "damn I can't beat that guy, I'm going to quest somewhere else or call in a similarly leveled friend for help" and then the organic pvp adventure begins and the world is alive. Thinking it's toxic in general is very disturbing, because the truth is you just dislike having to pay attention to your surroundings, plan for a fight in any situation, and then perform on demand or pay for it and run back to your body. I dislike those things sometimes too, but I just avoid pvp and don't try to force the enemy faction into a permanent peace mode to accodomate me. I don't like this mindset that so many people in this scene are adopting. Whats toxic is ganking someone as a level 55 when they are 27, or one shotting a lowbie in general. Killing quest givers, camping people instead of killing once and continuing on with your day, t bagging and typing profanities to them during or after combat, etc. The nuance is just missed so badly and the only good explanation for that is that people are letting their egos get in the way and instead of bettering themselves or playing around the game, they choose to remove what inconvenienced them entirely. I do definitely disagree with that way of thinking
@@Mcdoubles I don’t fault you for being scared of a fair fight, since it’s harder to film a win for your channel that way, but framing a preference for non-gank PvP as “very disturbing” or a skill issue makes you sound like a child afraid his toy is getting taken away. Servers have tried and failed to make un-toggleable world PvP work and it never sticks because most people don’t define toxicity by some weird extreme that excuses the far more frequent cases. They define toxic PvP as non-interactive engagements, which is what good gankers can do. “But victims can gank back” is cope since it’s still then a non-interactive match unless you put arbitrary handicaps on yourself to minimize your first mover advantage.
@@GameWrapper Ganking can be bad pvp world design, with like the HC community going invis on mobs spawns you click on them on accident and "end urself" on accident, but it cant be called toxic. Toxic behavior would be like blocking a door way for the simple sake of others cannot play the game
@@vanillastarfish you’re describing griefing, which is when someone enjoys the game by making it a miserable time for others. I don’t think all ganking is griefing since I don’t think the intent of gankers is to ruin a play experience. Unrestricted world PvP leads to toxic play that isn’t always griefing but does chase away people. It’s fun to ambush people, after all. It can be fun to turn the tables. But how often does the latter actually happen?
I think you're twisting what I say to fit your preconceived biases towards pvp. Like I said, it's fine to not like it, but these explanations as to why it shouldn't be on the server are very logically weak. I also don't get why you tried to imply that I had a skill issue, since nobody is saying anything about that so it just comes off as very combative and emotional. Im trying to argue for making the game more fair for all players and I'm arguing it against some people who only care about one side above all else.
no one world pvps, warmode just shows, if people are given an option they would choose pve over pvp. even on retail, the classic servers, the balance always sways massively in one direction or the other. you can gaslight people all you like but PvP is never a draw for the majority of players. the people who do like it nearly always opt for things like battle grounds. open world pvp is essentially ganker vs. victim. I have been playing since 2006 and can count on one hand the amount of times I didnt have an utterly one sided gank/camp fest. hell of those times, I can count a couple times when the mofo got salty and called in their guildmates to gank/camp me for winning.
Stating his opinion is not gaslighting. Please stop misusing this word. Secondly, his argument is that part of what made WoW so great was not only the competition of pvp, but also the risk it brought. You beat somone up? They may come back with friends. You want to quest in open pvp zones? You may get attacked. He wants to experience that feeling again. Very sime argument. This is coming from someone who prefers warmode option (with proper incentives)
@@ooze4318 I actually think there could have been a way to do world pvp better, but for some reason (probably time) they didn't do it. I refer to the idea of "contested" zones. If there were enough contested zones and quests in them to level 1-60, as well as enough uncontested zones to do the same, world pvp could have worked. This way, only people who want to pvp would quest in the contested zones and vice versa. Instead, they made nearly all zones "contested" and it merely resulted in toxicity (hate this stupid word). I think it's inherent in the functionality of the game (ganking), because it's an "open" world and you can group up with people to go around hunting other players, or go around killing much lower level players that can't win. The path of least resistance tends to win out and with the aging playerbase not wanting to waste their limited time after work, the path of least resistance is now to simply avoid world pvp entirely. Only the disturbed take the other path of least resistance and gank/outnumber, but they are the catalyst for the other group of people and cutting their noses off to spite their faces.
Some of my best memeories throughout playing vanilla era is the PVP while leveling. getting into those small group skirmishes or 1v1's or being outnumbered and pulling through, best times on wow period.
Tauren Priests makes sense to me, even though the sunwalker thing was created on the spot in cata, the taurens always had seers and sun worship. Not to mention several empty tents on spirit rise.
Undead Paladin and Tauren Priest is enough to make so many people not play on the server. Not only is it not lore friendly, but it will just 100% lead to every other Horde character being undead paladin. Huge mistake in my opinion.
I’m glad that this is only a private server, and blizzard isn’t doing this. If this was a product blizzard was providing, I’d be extremely disappointed.
WHY do all casual MMO's give more XP for a win!? It is NOT COMP BG's! It feels so bad when you lose a very winnable game becuase your team is running round like headless chickens, as you can fairly expect with PUGS! It makes quests like 3 WSG wins so aggrivating. Please don't do this. Make it 5 WSG games, give even rewards so everyone can PvP and know they will be rewarded for their time, not for their (bad) luck on who they got as teammates. Great content as always, thanks for the vid
Best solution to avoid gankers is to play without blindly following whatever leveling guide is popular at the moment, pay attention to general/local defense, take a short break while they get bored and move on, etc. If you're getting camped at area XYZ that ProStreamer recommends in their guide you can bet that the toxic players are well aware of the area, too. The best change I could see that would preserve the spirit of pvp while giving players an out is to remove any penalties from resurrecting at the graveyard or the ability to resurrect at the nearest inn. There's always going to be super annoying, toxic players, but the situations have to approached with the overall health of the game in mind and not the inconvenience of 1 player being ganked 1 time and losing their temper. Edit: I feel like the need to be super efficient, get max xp per hour, do the most dps, etc. is more harmful than ganking has ever been. Pve player on Pve player griefing is sometimes much much worse than getting camped for a while. Think of all the times you've had to stand in line for a quest item/mob just to have others continuously snatch the tag from you. The desire to remove wpvp comes from peoples need to accomplish things right. now. and wpvp distracts from that. It's okay to take a 10 minute break to do something on an alt, smoke a cigarette, call your mom and tell her you love her, etc. The gankers will most likely have gotten bored and moved on by the time you log back on the character.
gotta be honest, doesnt sound like a server i will enjoy playing, everything being so slowed down, slow xp, vanilla mount levels at 40 and 60 and from the feel of it its gonna be the original costs meaning there is no way in hell i will be able to afford one, no bloodelfs is a big yikes for me, im not one of those "i gotta be the best raider, or the best pvp'r" people, i like to enjoy my journey so i dont mind having a slower journey, but having a slower journey on foot on a race i dont particularly like is another story, i mean undead paladin might make up for that, if there were other custom races or classes i would be fine with it aswell, but this feels like a vanilla plus that focuses on most fo the things i dont care about (hardcore/dificult content) while ignoring the things i personally value (playing an interesting character i enjoy) the custom subzones and quests are great, so are the revamped dungeons etc, i will probably give the server a look but i dont think it will be able to keep me interested
That's exactly what got me so hyped on this project, the slow journey to 60 is one of the best parts of vanilla, I mean, I much prefer how most classes are in wrath(because going OoM can be really frustrating) plus achievements, but the leveling feels way too fast.
I wonder if we will eventually see some horizontal progression. Happy with the TBC class talents and such. Maybe some kind of side progression on classes. At 60 get say a spell bar that lets you earn a point and give each spec or or class like 10-15 spells or abilities that cost 2 points. Basically earning you 5 spells/abilities. A customization for your class. Glyphs and Gems minus meta gems. Just more ways to customize your class.
I think TBC had the best customizations to the classes. At least in TBC all the classes worked. You had 3 tanks that all worked differently. Your healers all worked different. But they worked.
i'd rather have arena or BGs to sate the pvp side of things, arenas are generally a fairer match than open world pvp and gives you a reward track rather than dying and having to spirit walk back or trying to balance HC mechanics without making a separate realm or server i think the existence of HC and how much people enjoy it makes warmode and not shying away from other pvp support like arenas a better move for pvpers also for the love of god, someone please make a pve/pvp skill balance split like in gw, does any server even do this ever???
Most people don't have an issue with PVP, they have an issue with world PVP. My objective in Arena is to kill the enemy team. My objective in a BG is to help with said BG's winning condition and get some kills in the process. My objective in the open world is to either get 10 bear asses to level up or farm some materials, I don't have time for some dumbass trying to pick a fight. To counter the "I don't like pvp because I lose" argument, even when I do win a world PVP fight my reward is being low on HP with most if not all abilities on cooldown. Great, that dumbass still managed to waste my time because my objective in the open world isn't to fight the other faction. Better question would be why the fuck are you trying to reduce the open world to just be a hunger games arena when you have a controlled environment that will offer a better experience seeing as the players involved actually want to participate in PVP?
Your last paragraph is exactly the point. A controlled environment is why world pvp is so fun, its not controlled, there are no rules. It is completely organic. Guilds have fought wars in stv bc some guy lost a fight, its pretty fun. But I totally see your point, which is why they have pve and pvp. I think retail does warmode pretty well, if you turn it on then everyone you see has it on.
I wish turtlewow dev realize how important QoL to some player like me. when I read that patch notes I know project epoch got it right. I play in turtle wow for more than a year now. I might switch to this new server if there is no improvement in turtle wow
I used to really be into world pvp but the reality it's that it's 9 unfulfilling fights for every 1 good fight. I say this as the person who predominantly ganked. Preventing horde groups from completing the elite dwarves quest solo in hillsbrad was my favourite part of lightshope. Your comments on warmode are true, it's a pointless addition. But it's sort of required with cross faction grouping. You can't cater to both world pvpers & people who don't want to be ganked at the same time.
I have 4 kids and work in the digital marketing industry with lots of clients. PVP is not an option for me personally like a lot of people that can play for limited hours. We want to experience an RPG in this MMO classic + world without encountering griefers or losers. Play PVP if you want, but try be a bit neutral with your stance.
I'm completely neutral actually. You're not seeing the bias in your very response. PvP is not = to encountering griefers or losers, I agree with you that griefers, campers, and toxic people who only do things in PvP for the sake of hurting their opponent are not doing a good thing and absolutely nobody wants to encounter that. My point is that we are punishing the entire concept of PvP because of the toxic parts, and that is inherently incorrect. At the precise moment that everything toxic is "fixed" in regards to PvP, what would the real reason be at that point for not wanting it? If the answer is, "I've tried to enjoy pvp at this point, but I'm losing too much and don't find it fun" then thats totally okay, but the answer would then be to avoid PvP, which you can easily do by just doing your dungeons and raids. Advocating for the demolition of the game mode, which a PvE server absolutely does to PvP players, is not the answer. Here's another major thing to keep in mind that is proved through 15 years of WoWs existence across private servers and retail: a PvP server does not kill PvE, but a PvE server does kill PvP. If that alone doesn't show you a problem, I'd be surprised.
@@Mcdoubles Encountering griefers and losers are inevitable in WoW. Plus the original audience of WoW from 2004 now have jobs and families with limited game time which makes world PvP not an option. Some folks like to explore the world and do quests and not just dungeons and raids lol. Let people play what they want to play, it's their time after all. Look at it from a casuals perspective as not everyone is a streamer or youtuber.
I do think I am being very fair, but I understand where you're coming from. I just don't think the answer is to kill pvp, which by the very proof of every popular warmode server, these types of decisions seem to do. :(
You talk alot about pvp in your videos recently, and while I respect your opinion, I simply have to disagree. The last couple of years playing ascension, classic and now duskhaven, EVERY SINGLE world pvp interaction i have met has been griefing. It is either hyper twinks or max levels ruining leveling by killing npc's and camping quest zones, or groups of multiples looking for 2v1 or 3v1 fights. Hell, even "fair" 1v1 fights of the same level, should it happens, is never fair. It is once again, the aggressor waiting for you to attack a mob, and only then take the fight, because you are at a disadvantage. Or low from a fight already. As a solo player, I have not had a single fun, or even neutral world pvp interaction in years. Secondly, having to balance around pve and pvp in the same game is a nightmare. You always end up ruining one side by nerfing the other. This is a common complaint in ascension and duskhaven alike. You may feel world pvp is fun and should exist because you don't experience the downsides, and it was a part of the original game. Fair. Personally, I feel it is a relic that serves no purpose, except give the insecure minority a chance to feel strong by picking fights they cannot lose.
Idea for a real PvP/PvE "fair" server. 1. You cannot attack or be attacked by another player for the first five minutes you log in. 2. You can only attack or be attacked by a player 4 levels on your level range. 3. You cannot kill a player more than 3 times consecutively on a period of 15/20 minutes. 4. If an NPC non quest related is being maintained in combat for more than 20 minutes, it will reset automatically and enter a 1 hour non attackable mode. If an NPC non quest related is being constantly killed (Bankers, Flight masters), after its fifth death will enter a non attackable mode for 1 hour. I don't know how hard it would be to implement these options, but those are my ideas. The gamemode of the server would be PvP.
You were talking about pvp and how Warmode is unfair. While I believe Warmode is not the most effective solution, I do think there needs to be gank protection if the server is a pvp server. Most of the time, the reason why people void pvp is because there really, really are more level 60s killing level 15s then level 15s killing level 15s. Maybe implement a system that does not allow you to attack players lower than 10 levels below you? Idk, but I appreciate the ability to disable world pvp, not because I don't like pvp, but because I don't like getting ganked, and until there's a proper solution, I welcome Warmode in classic servers.
I agree with you entirely. There should be all sorts of measures put in place to eliminate griefing and toxicity like camping players or killing quest givers. That's not pvp to me, that's being a jerk. But I do honestly believe some people's moral compass is off and they are lying to themselves and other people on this topic. I think people are using the toxicity that sometimes occurs to mask their hatred of losing to other people and because it's easier to remove the ability for people to fight you rather than to better yourself, they choose that option. Its a lack of nuance and also a bit devious. As I've said in other comments, I don't always want to pvp and I don't always find class balance or specific situations to be fair even though they're just normal things that should be able to happen (like let's say I'm at 60%hp and get ganked, that sucks, but if the guy is in my level range that's just the game and I should just brush myself off and find a solution to it like ganking him back or calling in a similar leveled friend). But the big difference is that when I don't feel like pvping I just play around that feeling, I don't let my ego make me irrationally angry at all pvpers and then quit pvping for life and try to eliminate it from the game. From my perspective as someone who enjoys the entire game, pvp and pve, this is actually super messed up.
@@Mcdoubles I know what you're saying, which is why I'd really love a grief-gank protection over Warmode. I do think that World PvP is one of the most fun things in World of Warcraft, but my experience with it does mostly revolve around ganking (unfortunately so). Those using Warmode as a way to escape World PvP simply because it makes them uncomfortable, I do agree that is wrong. Your second paragraph essentially sums up my thoughts to a T. I do think that there are some unfortunate situations that may pull you away from wanting to PvP, but that isn't a reason to disable it altogether. Keep up your content, by the way. I think your feedback on all the new Vanilla+ (or Classic+, depending on that poll) is extremely enjoyable and is very fun to watch. I hope you have just as much fun making the content as well. Good luck!
The problem with PvP Servers in WoW is simple. Wether you play on a PvP or PvE Server makes no difference until it does. The average player will not start to play WoW differently because of PvP. And because of that, PvP is usually considered an annoyance rather than an aspect of the world. And while that experience is super frustrating to players, they still want to have that option aswell down the road. Warmode does not "change" that core problem at all and just removed that "annoyance" aspect of PvP, while limiting PvP in general. Rewarding players for PvP is also very tricky in general, because you don't want to encourage things like "win-trading" or accidently making it even more rewarding not to engage in PvP at all. Faction or Guild based PvP also has it's issues, since there'll always be the idea of "winner team joiners" like we see with the official WoW Classic population. So a good PvP Server needs a lot of very well crafted systems to work, since it's easy to mess up. And I don't know how to make PvP rewarding, while also not easy to abuse.
Warmode is done well in retail, bc once you are in warmode its basically a pvp server. Everyone you see is pvp. In turtle it kind of sucks bc a lot of ppl are pve even when you’re in warmode
This are my concern as someone who plays hybrid classes like druid, paladins and shamans alot. Anyone whos play classic or og vanilla will know that the druid/paladin/shaman specific gear were a mess and you were almost always force to play healing spec only (wish i dont mind), but it such a waste considering the classes have 2 other spec that are still enjoyable to play. i recently play Twow as a paladin and even tho is possible to be a tankadin in it i was stuck in a predicament were i didnt have a set and had to roll for warrior off pieces and there werent any paladin tank specific gear to help with mana or spell power forcing me to have a stretch thin build trying to make it work. so my hopes is that they can find a way for item progression to be worth your time for hybrid classes and not just be expecting that talent will be enough. And they would need to accomplish that without powercreeping cus the greatest downside of duskhaven imo, is the massive powercreep it has.
Yeah hybrid balance just about has to be done with talents and they need to be deep talents that have some negative drawback for a big boost in functionality. I'm certain I could do a very good job of fixing all of the hybrids, but just never had the opportunity. (gear isn't that big of an issue, it just needs a little tweaking and there are other fixes that can solve the problem, like custom versions you buy from a vendor with the original version)
Usually I agree with your takes, but your take on pvp is pretty shitty. The fact is, world pvp is unfair 95% of the time, either because you get jumped, ambushed, outlevelled, or the other guy simply plays a class that is much better suited for world pvp. If you really like fair pvp and not ambushing people while they're taking on 2-3 mobs, there are always BGs and Arenas...
I get where McD is coming from but I think you have to face the reality that PvE and PvP WoW are really two separate games. Gear, talents, even stuff like class and race selection are all different if you're optimizing for PvE vs PvP. Asking PvE players to engage with PvP is asking them to fight uphill. Separating PvP and PvE in this way makes sense because they're already basically two separate games, and there's no real incentive for PvE players to participate in PvP, in the same way that PvP'ers really don't care about engaging with raids and other high-end PvE content unless there are important gear pieces for a PvP build. If you want a world where everyone's encouraged to do both, then PvP stuff needs to help provide PvE incentives and vice-versa. Otherwise, WoW just really doesn't support trying to do both, you'll just end up a jack of all trades, master of none compared to people who spec hard into one or the other.
Swappable racials? I mean if retail did that classic people would despise it, saying it lost even that identity as well (and with good reason), I can't see it as a plus for classic in any way, where those 1% dps gains from racials wont matter if a Warlock outclasses a Ret pala in dps especially in AOE and its not even close. Yea PvP server is fine, but adding warmode still expands a PvE server too if you look at it that way. I have never ever gotten the idea of world pvp help me please why is it good? If someone attacked me I usually killed them, being fairly experienced in bgs and arenas, but I never got that why would I want to fuck up someones day in the open world, catching them off guard?
The reason so many people want to fuck up someones day in the open world is because they have a screw loose. They have a burning desire to hurt someone in some small way in the real world, but they are pathetic cowards, too afraid of the consequences if they tried their nastiness in the real world. There's a surprising amount of these people and they all need to see a damn shrink. I swear if I were given GM powers on a server, the majority of my time would be punishing these scumbags, which is why I'll never be given the opportunity lol.
I wish just one of these servers would rebuild the Trinity and add some more CC and Buff classes that are needed for dungeon running. I liked TBC gear and stat’s better.
IVE BEEN SAYING IT SINCE BC, IF YOU CAN BE A WARRIOR AND A PRIEST YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE A PALADIN!!! (Same with if you can be a Paladin, should be able to be a warrior, like BElf)
I don't think so. The priest lore is wider than the Paladin's, which is centered on the Holy Light. Priest can be shadow priest, and Alonsus Faol is a holy priest, but he's the only one lore-wise. Paladin's mission was to fight the (Warlocks and then) the Plague, an undead paladin would definetely committ suicide as soon as he regains his free will.
Not really, paladins only worship the Light. Blizzard allowed some races like Night Elf to be priest like Troll and Night elf because they have some priest element even though they're not tied to the light, in lore they are priest of elune and voodoo shadow priests only. They should not be able to use holy spells but for gameplay reason they can obviously use anythnig in game they weren't entirely gonan remake the Priest class for some races. blizzard tried to justify and showcase this with the priest racials abilities, troll/undead spells are shadow, night elf is a moon spell etc
no blood elves? they don't include my favorite ones >.>, i'm mad, piss, sad, not going to play, what am i suppose to do? be a human? meh, orc? meh, gimme the Sin'dorei !!!!
tbh my only experience with open world pvp was pretty toxic so I can definitely understand why people don't like it. Warmode is kind of the only compromise between the two so it just is what it is. (My experience was being camped by a max level while being only level 10. It was enough to make me not want to play that server anymore. I even waited an hour or so to see if he'd leave but clearly I wasn't the only one in the area he was camping cuz he was STILL there. Nasty in chat too. I dont remember what server that was but it's long dead now I think. Probably for the best if toxic chat wasn't being moderated :) )
I think its a bit telling that many pvp servers die off quickly, at least in the player hosted scene. PVE people won't play on it, and even people who like pvp may get tired of being ganked by max levels who had an early start. That was my experience, and thus why I personally don't play on those servers. These communities need to consider their own longevity and sadly open pvp has proven to not be very sustainable comparatively.
@@Rickseriastar This is exactly always been my experience. I do not play private servers at all. The end. My time is too valuable to waste doing NOTHING because some mentally ill person wants to hurt others anonymously like a pathetic coward. If it comes to a choice between pvp, or another server without pvp, I'll pick another server every time. People love to say they only want fair fights, but they are clearly in the minority. Pvp servers are almost universally for nasty people to get their jollies hurting other people IRL without fear of consequences.
Be great if you could only kill players within 5-10 levels and they can't be killed by any/the same player for like, 10-15 mins or so after dying to a player, either once or multiple times (unless they attack or flag again). Played another game with a similar system and it felt pretty nice
Most pvp is fair lol. Yeah. A rogue and hunter and wizard group running around ganking solos all day is very fair I agree xD xD xD Because taht hasnt been a fact for the ENTIRETY of WoW's history, hence why all PVP servers are dead and always die when made lol. Its almost like the community's all ready self-solved the griefing.
Not all pvp is toxic pvp, and killing pvp to avoid the toxic pvp is unjust. Like, I'm with you man, 3 people ganking solos is cringe and I don't want it in the game. But I love being lvl 29 and finding a lvl 30 and fighting him organically while questing. I also love a good back and forth and also I love that it sometimes turns into a big fight or small skirmish with other players. A lot of what makes the game good is being taken from people so that some people never have to be made to feel bad a small percentage of the time. It doesn't make sense
Totally right. Besides, didn't the light hurt the undead in Warcraft lore? I understand the class of a fallen paladin who uses necromantic magic, but light...
If people have the option to not pvp on world map ,the server is already garbage from the start. A ton of people will freely farm on the map with no stress. People will explore whatever territory they want ,without the feeling of being ganked ,as it should be ,because players defend their faction lands and mats .This is garbage. All hipe i had for the server ,now its gone.
My thing is su re i agree with you about what War Mode is. but the Point is and reason why most servers choose to use it is because the vas majority of players dont want world pvp, Its annoying as hell and just turns into a way for your fun to be destroyed while you're trying to play. What happened in bliz classic being on a pvp server there was so annoying. Even if you're decent at PVP and win most of your fights its still annoying when you're trying to quest and keep getting attacked or get attacked by a ton of ppl ect, The point is Most ppl dont want world PVP. So they have to use War mode to try to make the Ppl who do want it happy kuz THey know making it a real PVP server will drive alot of ppl away
Is that pvp gear for honor only? No other reqs? Far better than forced arena for top pvp gear (WoW pvp started going to shit when blizz started trying to force arena, which is something most pvpers back in the day really didn't enjoy). I still think Vanilla's pvp gearing system was far better than any of the expansions systems (obviously the raid gear worked for pvp as well). Overall vanilla just wasn't as flawed as any of the expansions in this sense.
The racial stuff made this seem like it could be a great PvP server. With the main detriment of vanilla pvp usually being racials being too strong. Shame this is just another PvE server for people to raidlog and dead PvP. my heart sank when I saw the word warmode
Having played TBC classic through to completion I do worry some about balance and gameplay. Are we going to see the BM hunter/Destro Lock/Arcane Mage meta where you stack those to zug bosses down? What about low damage utility classes like Ret Pally and Shadow Priests? Will their damage be brought up be competitive? Am I gonna have to Seal Twist as ret for example? Hunter Shot clipping and Melee Weaving now a thing? Don't get me wrong, I love TBC class design. TBC prot pally was my main and I love it with how it unique the gearing and mechanics were on it. But, there's reasons why classes in wrath are more fondly remembered than classes in TBC.
Too bad the racial changes are not what i wanted. I want real lore like racials that make your race 30% of your character. I want orcs to be feared arms warriors and locks, I want trolls to regen all of their hp like wolverine with fire weakness....... I want Tauren to take 3x the damage than any other class to take down... I want elves to be wicked casters and dwarves be ale slamming badasses. Humans gain stats while in proximity to allies and shit like that....
I think pvp is garbage and I don't really care about it other than finding it an annoyance. And most people agree with me on this, otherwise pvp wouldn't be dead
It's the underlying reason for people choosing this line of thinking that disturbs me not the fact that they don't like pvp in general. But moreso, it's the fact that people believe eliminating the natural way for the game to be played because they might lose to someone else in the process is actually the correct way to go about it, that disturbs me the most. The thing is, I don't always want to pvp either and sometimes I find class balance to be so off that I don't find it skill based in some expansions or versions of the game. Yet I don't call to remove it, I just play around it and accept it as part of the faction based war rpg that I'm playing. As I've said, it would be easy to implement anti griefing integrity changes to your pvp server so that the game is still World of WARcraft but without a lvl 60 rogue killing Westfall quest givers or dropping infernals on people, or camping your alt with their main, or camping you in general. But instead of going there, we find a creative way to kill pvp entirely and then gaslight people who enjoy pvp if they don't like it. I find that saddening as someone who enjoys all aspects of the game I play. So really I'm appealing to people's morals and their ability to be honest over their own personal wants here and hoping that's enough to sway them from the selfish side
the warmode compromise cemented that, if given an option, people will opt out of being someone elses content. regardless how Mc tries to gaslight people, short of calling them pve andies or carebears.
@Shiirow warmode is great, the issue is sharding. For whatever reason blizzard is unable to have near 50/50 shards. You either get into 1/99 shard one way or the other. Either you're in mass gankfest shard or mass buttclap. Never balanced
"Only 10% of pvp is the toxic bit" litteraly the only times i'm pvped out in the open world it's ganking and corpsecamping. Or they attack me when i'm at half health and fighting a mob. I for one am very happy i don't have to deal with it. It is not an "inconvience" it just straigt up make me quite and maybe come back later. There is no fun in pvp when you are only ever engaged in it in situations where you don't have a chance to fight back. PvP is fair in arenas and bg's
That might imply that you don't ever attempt PvP in any other way, so you're just someone that "gets pvp'd on" rather than someone that actively attempts to engage in it themselves. If this were true, it wouldn't be a surprise that all of your encounters are the negative bits. But when you don't avoid PvP while leveling and treat it as a part of the game, I can promise you from 15 years of experience that the toxic bits are definitely minority bits. At least in my anecdotal experience.
I think there are too many private servers and not enough players. Everyone tries to do that one thing, stretching the already thin private server player base even further
What are those racials????? It's as if those people have no faction bias and want people to play what they actually like! Fun racials, full of flavor, but no advantage whatsoever. Vanilla devs, take notes. I'm assuming that's the case, since half of them are clearly only visual or specifically say "you appear as if", while the ones that could have an effect, don't have one in their description. Also, it'd be funny if randomly Lo'Gosh took on Varian's form and you ride on Varian ROFL. It'd be also cool if the undead could have a few "dead elf" faces. So you can RP as a dark ranger ;] I'd be cool if there was a FFA PvP server. Where in typical MMO tradition, any small-pp sadist can one-shot a lowbie. BUT!! then you'll be able to place a bounty on their heads. And he will be visible for many hours on the map to people who have chosen to be "bounty hunters". Bounty hunting could be a secondary profession. And if you toggle it on, you track the "wanted" players. And you can have an additional currency tab, "heads collected" just for show. "priest racials" is a nice way to make each race more fitting. But i think the best way to do it, is to just change the visuals, and maybe the names, while keeping the spells identical. Like, humans and highelves would use light visuals, nightelves and tauren would use "moon" visuals like penance/starshards/moonfire, undead and trolls would use shadow, gnomes and goblins would use zap-beams, and so on.
Unfortunately I'm already out. I get that it's strictly Vanilla+ and I respect that, but making it all TBC state and excluding the TBC races is a failure for me. I love having more racial options in an already restrained setting of old WoW. More race/class combos of the vanilla stuff only band aids that so much for me, especially when it's two of my favorite races excluded forever. I hope Epoch finds success, though.
I agree that having more racial options is ideal, especially with how competitive the scene is now. I asked the head dev Ktotes about his opinions on adding custom races, and based on his response it seems like he felt it was an irrelevant thing. That wasn't great for my ears, but it's not my server and a lot of this is genuinely very competently done so I'm going to give it a try in the open beta and see if I enjoy it enough to keep playing it when it launches. The thing with these super slow XP servers in 2023 is that if they don't have major draws to them, they won't appeal to as many people. Turtle hit gold with HC mode before anyone else in the scene had it in a competent way, while also having the first real custom V+ content for people to explore in a traditional Vanilla world. But even that was not enough to make me stay, personally, because the fact that the server is progressed all the way to Naxx already and has been for years, and the fact that once the 1-60 journey is over your options are to do a watered down version of the max level journey (watered down because the only thing that really keeps max level fun in WoW is when you're progressing alongside everyone, not when you're catching up) or to reroll with slow rates once again - it really just puts these guys in a bad place. Turtle WoW owns the market and, once again, got away with being the first to do it. But the guys trying to be the 2nd and 3rd to do it are going to have to be exceptional, and even though some people think their race doesn't matter in game, for many people that ALONE is enough to get them to play a server and stick to it. It's these types of custom changes that make the game worth playing.
100% agree with you on that. Hell, seeing 'Undead Paladin' alone in the title initially got me going a bit wide eyed, but knowing that races naturally included by Blizz are, in their own words, *never* going to be playable is just..disheartening to me, especially as someone that's played since the beginning when I was a child. It just feels kind of gutting, you know? Largely even moreso gutting with precisely what you've said here of the fact that each new server needs this imperative to have *something* to draw people in and actually want to take root and stay and help cultivate life into it. I mean hell, I'll admit I've been getting a little more intrigued with Duskhaven despite the fact I personally just hate looking at the old crusty models of the playable races from way back when. The stuff you've showcased in it make it genuinely seem a bit more interesting compared to some of the other V+ servers I've heard of. Even if I will never touch it, I sincerely hope Epoch manages to find something like what Duskhaven's done to hook, line and sinker some audience retention. I'll admit part of what drives me away from Epoch even more is what you mentioned as well of the slow rates; I don't have the time nor attention span anymore to level with super slow rates en masse anymore like I did when I was a kid who got to play WoW after school and didn't really have a desire nor ability to take the levelling seriously to get into the endgame. Now as an adult though, I'd rather be able to just get there and see what's all to offer at the end as much as the journey, you know? Especially with busy schedules.
@@morinthianhound I finally bit the rag and tried duskhaven and turtle, i prefered duskhaven. Having hardcore debuffs so youre forced to play real hardcore and dont have to record it all is nice. Turtle was just a bit too slow for a 23 year old with work, hard core with 1.5x content means it will take all day to level to 15 but not as long as turtle
The races lore wouldn't be cannon in vanilla, they'll likely come up with their own draenei/blood elf lore in the future. To be honest TBC's lore was awful and doesn't fit vanilla
think ill pass on this one. it has a lot that i like, but more that i dont. the custom stuff i was reading looks good but some stuff is just "why did you make that choice". most of it comes down to the things they say they wont do, why would they limit them self's like that
Agreed big time on the limitations and the finality of it. I legit monologued to myself when I read it on their site about how weird it was to make a decision like that, especially when the custom landscape is actually competitive now
@Mcdoubles they even say it's for lore. but if it was, paladin and priest would be removed from undead, not that I want that. but even blizzard said they ret cond the lore here for game play sake 🙄 and because they couldn't make necromancer work in time for vanilla
I want to try this one. Starting fresh with everyone will be a good experience.
They could entice Warmode to allow enabled people to get the coins and the winner gets more. I would love that. You get blood coins even if you get ambushed and ganked, but the ambusher gets more coins.
The only way pvp succeeds on this server based on its current design is if the bloody coin reward system is actually interesting and genuinely rewarding. So yeah I agree.
Otherwise it ends up like all the other warmode servers, dead pvp and a one dimensional open world
Provided you only get those tokens for winning the battle if you’re within like 5 levels of the other player, then sure. If you’re getting a reward you should have to earn it.
If the winner and loser both get coins then people will just let themselves be farmed for free currency.
Someone tell them to somehow implement a bounty Hunter system in there! Gotta hunt someone down across Azeroth. Would be badass! Lol cheers
@@OtawoOnlineGaming more like 2 or 3 higher or lover. 5 is to much
The warmode might work if:
a) Those rewards for PvPing are good
b) People get rewarded even when they lose. For example if you win you get 5 of those blood coins but only 1 when you lose.
The lore implications of an undead paladin is what interest me the most, and how it would manifest uniquely when translated into gameplay. We know undead priests are in constant suffering using their powers, but push through due to their great will and actual body durability. For paladins, this is far more pronounced due to how deeply connected they are with the light itself. Haven't watched the video yet, but here's to hoping they do something with that!
as scarlet crusade can use the light... idk, sounds like anyone with dedication can use it...
Agreed, would just be super fun to play overall. Even outside of the lore, a Paladin with undead racials seems very fun for pvp :)
@@Mcdoubles Definetely provides more defensive coverage, and that'll be neat.
@@robinostertag871 That is true, however they are ultimately human and mortal, remained so. Undead is a state of existence we know is in violation of that.
Only humans and dwarves are paladin, the other are the paladin archtype. It is written paladins use strong conviction, the Light favors conviction and a sense of justice. Game mechanics aside, you dont channel the Light as Priests do. Much like Shamans dont actually wield magic, neither do these paladins wield the Light but the Light does come to them. This is how the Scarlets can use the Light to enforce great evil.
I agree with you on the warmode points. It often feels like devs who add a warmode actually just want a pve server, but also want some way to entice the pvp crowd into their game without thinking of the balancing issues that it brings. It acts like a permanent pvp flag without any changes, which puts warmode players at a massive disadvantage to scummy people.
Personally, if I were to implement a Warmode, it'd have these two features:
1) People can only engage on you if they're within your level range (basically, if they're not ?? or skull to you). This ensures that only people you have a reasonable chance of fighting back against will roll up on you. Barring twinks, of course, but they will always and forever be a nuisance to any level bracket. However, limiting it to only the engager needing to be within level means that you can still "punch up", so to speak, for comical or roleplaying reasons. Duels and battlegrounds can still function as normal, but the primary idea is to counter the most common complaint of people playing on a pvp server - Level 60 ganking. This might be a bit too far, but I feel like Ascension has the right idea in terms of bracketing open world pvp. Nobody likes getting stomped by someone you had no chance of winning against, and the only people who seem to advocate for it are the people *doing* the stomping, in my experience.
2) Make it so players without warmode enabled can't engage you without flagging for pvp first. It might seem like an arbitrary distinction, but "bluewalling" is a major complaint of a lot of warmoders on Turtle (at least, the ones who actually take it to pvp), because it disables any possible forward thinking you could have unless you treat literally every other player as if they're going to fight you - which is a very stressful and unhealthy way to play the game. Instead of going "oh there's a red name, I'd better be prepared to fight them or charge them before they have a chance to engage on me", it's like "Oh neat I'm getting globaled by someone who I didn't even know was *interested* in fighting me." There's a massive tactical advantage to staying "cloaked" in pve mode, and plenty of players absolutely do make use of this advantage to dick on warmoders, as well as the defensive benefit to being able to hide and drop flag so you can't counter-gank them.
Ideally these features would also come with other flagging mechanics changes, like increasing the time it takes for a flag to fall off so people can't effectively "blue-wall", but just these two major changes would do so much to make pvp a lot more enjoyable for the people that take it. Also, keep FAR the fuck away from any pve incentive to take the mode, so it ensures that anyone who takes warmode is actually doing it for the pvp and not some dinky experience buff.
I agree with 2 but not with 1. I have played games where they did that and it made lower level players become the bullies while max lvs couldnt do anything about it. I think if weapon skill and spell resist just wasnt a thing in pvp then at least you can damage a max level and even take one down with a group
Yeah I really don't like turtle wow's handling of warmode. 30% exp is pretty crap and not at all a pvp incentive, it just makes toxic players that mock anyone not using it, calling them stupid and the ganking is absolutely a problem there (though actually not as bad as it was in vanilla/classic), especially if you make a mistake as an HC and some asshole 60 1 shots you at the level 1-5 zone.
I think the bloody coin idea is a good one. I'd probably throw custom gear and even trinkets on there for low level. Things like a 5 min cd 3 second root trinket, a 10-15% bonus hp cooldown trinket, or maybe a grenade trinket. Maybe they could make a rocket boots trinket. The stuff available should be really good. I do agree with some of your ideas, I just don't know how hard it is to implement such things.
This is one of the most promising projects in the v+ scene.
I like that they removed world buffs
Completely agreed with the PvP/Warmode take.
I've never liked openworld pvp except for when I myself am the max level. It's rarely EVER a fair fight, and some people are so toxic that they will literally camp the crap out of you.
I am very glad it's not a forced pvp server.
I feel like people are being very unfair with this. I actually engage in pvp whenever I can and I've never in my life been griefed to the degree that some people claim is happening based on the fact that they literally want pvp DELETED from the game. It's concerning to me because I'm the type of guy that wants fairness above my own ego and wants. Deleting pvp from the game and pretending it's nothing but toxicity and unfairness because you lose to someone with 2 levels over you makes me sad.
As I've said, it would be extremely easy to eliminate griefing and camping from the equation but devs and players either don't have the competence or the willingness to do it, so we get lazy design or we keep griefers, every, single, time.
I'd just wonder what people's excuses would be to not have a pvp ruleset in their faction-based war rpg in a world in which griefing, camping, and generally toxic pvp behavior is planned around and stamped out? I think at that point the truth would surface, and that is that people's egos are making them irrationally angry over getting ganked and losing to a similarly leveled player in Arathi Highlands or STV.
If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but it's just weird to me that people can't just say, "I hate losing, so I don't want to pvp" which is a totally fair opinion, but requires them to tell the truth about it.
@@Mcdoubles Yeah I agree with OP. To be fair it’s been a LONG time since I’ve played on a PvP server but generally I was getting ganked by max/high levels (I was 40s getting ganked by 60-70s in BC) all the time. They’d even camp sometimes because…reasons.
@@Mcdoubles Man, sorry but i disagree. I remember when the Kronos honor rollout came and instantly, EVERYONE questing in Searing Gorge was getting ambushed by 60 rogues. You couldn't quest, at ALL. I remember the hell it was to even step in Nostalrius' Un'goro because of the number of level 60s camping Devilsaurs that would twoshot you.
I can't speak for your experience, but i can speak for mine, and more often than not, it's not a excuse, it's a real thing. I'm not interested in my time being used for someone else's fun to a detriment of my own. It's not fun, and there's no ammount of lore that will change that.
A good example of that is Turtle Westfall being plagued by twinks that are killing warmode lowbies that just wanted the 30% more exp. Those people aren't PvPers, and you saying it's just excuses is a bit misguided.
@@Mcdoubles "I've never been corpse camped therefore it must not happen to other people"
@@Mcdoubles Man I loved pvp in wow, I almost exclusively pvp'd from tbc-mop. But I absolutely despise open world pvp. There's nothing fair about it. The closer to vanilla you get the more it's rock paper scissors. You never see a warrior try to gank a frost mage, but you always see a rogue gank a warlock. Then there's RNG, nothing like an orc resisting your 5pt kidney. If you look at pve, there's clear synergy between the classes, this translates into pvp as well. Not only do they make each other stronger, they shore up each others weaknesses The classes/gearing/scaling aren't built for 1 v 1's imo. Don't get me wrong, there's some fun exceptions like rogue vs mage.
But it's this loss of agency that saps the fun out of it for me. When I 2 shot someone I don't feel like I earned it, and when I get 2 shot I don't feel like there was anything I could do. I played a geared ele sham in retail vanilla. If I had natures swiftness and ZHC up there was basically nothing anyone could do. Furthermore, open world pvp being rampant encourages pvp specs. Which means no healers and tanks to level with. Although this could be addressed with a low-cost dual spec.
"I'd just wonder what people's excuses would be to not have a pvp ruleset in their faction-based war rpg in a world in which griefing, camping, and generally toxic pvp behavior is planned around and stamped out?"
I can tell you right now, for me it's less about toxicity and more about it simply not being fun.
TLDR Vanilla class balance is closer to checkers than chess and renders 1 v 1's unfun. If I saw more class balance coming out of these servers I might change my tune. But most of them seem to either be stuck on the "vanilla feel" trip or the complete opposite and load the classes with infinite damage just exacerbating the issues. I'll admit, I suspect adjusting either damage output or health pools and adding strategically placed defensives/mobility would change my feelings.
"I hate losing when I have no recourse, so I don't want to open world pvp"
I appreciate your opinion on Warmode in most servers. My hunch is that you are right about it. I'm pretty excited with the changes they are making and how professional they seem to be with it all. I just hope to see a few more class changes down the road.
Did you notice that in the opening flyby cutscene for Oblivion that there is a sailing vessel .. sailing up the river.
Sadly that never happens in game. There are maybe two quests in the entire game where they say that the ship that you're on is moving, but it doesn't actually do that.
Even if they were just collisionless textures sailing by, that would have been cool.
ill think u gonna lova it. beta 1 was a blast at least for me.
The “only 10% of open world PvP is toxic” line is so bizarre.
Ganking is by far the most common way a fight starts, specifically because of the advantage it gives. The person initiating the fight gets to pop their offensive CDs and tailor their first two GCDs to start the fight in the most unfair way possible.
Instanced PvP remains popular on retail and pservers even as world PvP erodes because in no era or server are ganks “only 10%” of World PvP engagements.
If folks actually want world PvP to be a thing, removing all PvE incentives and disincentives would go a long way to reducing the pain points.
Ganking itself is not toxic. It's the game. The response to a healthy pvp encounter where you get ganked by a player leveling in the same zone as you is to find them and gank them back once, or say "damn I can't beat that guy, I'm going to quest somewhere else or call in a similarly leveled friend for help" and then the organic pvp adventure begins and the world is alive. Thinking it's toxic in general is very disturbing, because the truth is you just dislike having to pay attention to your surroundings, plan for a fight in any situation, and then perform on demand or pay for it and run back to your body. I dislike those things sometimes too, but I just avoid pvp and don't try to force the enemy faction into a permanent peace mode to accodomate me. I don't like this mindset that so many people in this scene are adopting.
Whats toxic is ganking someone as a level 55 when they are 27, or one shotting a lowbie in general. Killing quest givers, camping people instead of killing once and continuing on with your day, t bagging and typing profanities to them during or after combat, etc. The nuance is just missed so badly and the only good explanation for that is that people are letting their egos get in the way and instead of bettering themselves or playing around the game, they choose to remove what inconvenienced them entirely. I do definitely disagree with that way of thinking
@@Mcdoubles I don’t fault you for being scared of a fair fight, since it’s harder to film a win for your channel that way, but framing a preference for non-gank PvP as “very disturbing” or a skill issue makes you sound like a child afraid his toy is getting taken away.
Servers have tried and failed to make un-toggleable world PvP work and it never sticks because most people don’t define toxicity by some weird extreme that excuses the far more frequent cases. They define toxic PvP as non-interactive engagements, which is what good gankers can do. “But victims can gank back” is cope since it’s still then a non-interactive match unless you put arbitrary handicaps on yourself to minimize your first mover advantage.
@@GameWrapper Ganking can be bad pvp world design, with like the HC community going invis on mobs spawns you click on them on accident and "end urself" on accident, but it cant be called toxic. Toxic behavior would be like blocking a door way for the simple sake of others cannot play the game
@@vanillastarfish you’re describing griefing, which is when someone enjoys the game by making it a miserable time for others. I don’t think all ganking is griefing since I don’t think the intent of gankers is to ruin a play experience.
Unrestricted world PvP leads to toxic play that isn’t always griefing but does chase away people. It’s fun to ambush people, after all. It can be fun to turn the tables. But how often does the latter actually happen?
I think you're twisting what I say to fit your preconceived biases towards pvp. Like I said, it's fine to not like it, but these explanations as to why it shouldn't be on the server are very logically weak.
I also don't get why you tried to imply that I had a skill issue, since nobody is saying anything about that so it just comes off as very combative and emotional. Im trying to argue for making the game more fair for all players and I'm arguing it against some people who only care about one side above all else.
no one world pvps, warmode just shows, if people are given an option they would choose pve over pvp. even on retail, the classic servers, the balance always sways massively in one direction or the other. you can gaslight people all you like but PvP is never a draw for the majority of players. the people who do like it nearly always opt for things like battle grounds. open world pvp is essentially ganker vs. victim. I have been playing since 2006 and can count on one hand the amount of times I didnt have an utterly one sided gank/camp fest. hell of those times, I can count a couple times when the mofo got salty and called in their guildmates to gank/camp me for winning.
I would say its pretty fun when you trigger some soft baby Epeen. 😂🎉
Stating his opinion is not gaslighting. Please stop misusing this word.
Secondly, his argument is that part of what made WoW so great was not only the competition of pvp, but also the risk it brought. You beat somone up? They may come back with friends. You want to quest in open pvp zones? You may get attacked. He wants to experience that feeling again. Very sime argument.
This is coming from someone who prefers warmode option (with proper incentives)
This is the quintential toxic PVE mindset.
@@ooze4318 I actually think there could have been a way to do world pvp better, but for some reason (probably time) they didn't do it.
I refer to the idea of "contested" zones. If there were enough contested zones and quests in them to level 1-60, as well as enough uncontested zones to do the same, world pvp could have worked. This way, only people who want to pvp would quest in the contested zones and vice versa. Instead, they made nearly all zones "contested" and it merely resulted in toxicity (hate this stupid word).
I think it's inherent in the functionality of the game (ganking), because it's an "open" world and you can group up with people to go around hunting other players, or go around killing much lower level players that can't win. The path of least resistance tends to win out and with the aging playerbase not wanting to waste their limited time after work, the path of least resistance is now to simply avoid world pvp entirely. Only the disturbed take the other path of least resistance and gank/outnumber, but they are the catalyst for the other group of people and cutting their noses off to spite their faces.
L take
EPOCH FOR LIFE, LETS GOOOO
Love your preaching for the PVP and about Warmode. Exactly my thoughts and i miss PVP so much!!
Some of my best memeories throughout playing vanilla era is the PVP while leveling. getting into those small group skirmishes or 1v1's or being outnumbered and pulling through, best times on wow period.
I love pvp too but sadly I think we are in the minority. I think most people would prefer this system.
Tauren Priests makes sense to me, even though the sunwalker thing was created on the spot in cata, the taurens always had seers and sun worship. Not to mention several empty tents on spirit rise.
Undead Paladin and Tauren Priest is enough to make so many people not play on the server. Not only is it not lore friendly, but it will just 100% lead to every other Horde character being undead paladin. Huge mistake in my opinion.
this looks pretty good, I like so much they are using Tbc based stats so the lvling its hard
Bagger of a video from the myth the legend himself hype
Perfect take on the warmode!
Excited for tomorrow!!!
I'm going to check it out tomorrow as well!
You're so right on warmode lol. Hope the server is good. And hope BG's do actually give "a lot of xp". and the southshore/TM thing sounds great.
Id love to see one of these 3.3.5 clients figure out how to add console-port.
Cant wait for oblivion! My favorite elder scrolls to date!
You WILL pvp and you WILL like it
Love the content and love the smug gnome mug - keep it up my guy
I’m glad that this is only a private server, and blizzard isn’t doing this. If this was a product blizzard was providing, I’d be extremely disappointed.
Pretty much ever private server you shout out I try and this one looks no different lol thanks man
6:55 AMEN BROTHER
WHY do all casual MMO's give more XP for a win!? It is NOT COMP BG's! It feels so bad when you lose a very winnable game becuase your team is running round like headless chickens, as you can fairly expect with PUGS! It makes quests like 3 WSG wins so aggrivating. Please don't do this. Make it 5 WSG games, give even rewards so everyone can PvP and know they will be rewarded for their time, not for their (bad) luck on who they got as teammates. Great content as always, thanks for the vid
Best solution to avoid gankers is to play without blindly following whatever leveling guide is popular at the moment, pay attention to general/local defense, take a short break while they get bored and move on, etc. If you're getting camped at area XYZ that ProStreamer recommends in their guide you can bet that the toxic players are well aware of the area, too. The best change I could see that would preserve the spirit of pvp while giving players an out is to remove any penalties from resurrecting at the graveyard or the ability to resurrect at the nearest inn. There's always going to be super annoying, toxic players, but the situations have to approached with the overall health of the game in mind and not the inconvenience of 1 player being ganked 1 time and losing their temper.
Edit: I feel like the need to be super efficient, get max xp per hour, do the most dps, etc. is more harmful than ganking has ever been. Pve player on Pve player griefing is sometimes much much worse than getting camped for a while. Think of all the times you've had to stand in line for a quest item/mob just to have others continuously snatch the tag from you. The desire to remove wpvp comes from peoples need to accomplish things right. now. and wpvp distracts from that. It's okay to take a 10 minute break to do something on an alt, smoke a cigarette, call your mom and tell her you love her, etc. The gankers will most likely have gotten bored and moved on by the time you log back on the character.
gotta be honest, doesnt sound like a server i will enjoy playing, everything being so slowed down, slow xp, vanilla mount levels at 40 and 60 and from the feel of it its gonna be the original costs meaning there is no way in hell i will be able to afford one, no bloodelfs is a big yikes for me, im not one of those "i gotta be the best raider, or the best pvp'r" people, i like to enjoy my journey so i dont mind having a slower journey, but having a slower journey on foot on a race i dont particularly like is another story, i mean undead paladin might make up for that, if there were other custom races or classes i would be fine with it aswell, but this feels like a vanilla plus that focuses on most fo the things i dont care about (hardcore/dificult content) while ignoring the things i personally value (playing an interesting character i enjoy) the custom subzones and quests are great, so are the revamped dungeons etc, i will probably give the server a look but i dont think it will be able to keep me interested
I'm more excited to try the murloc race in that other server
That's exactly what got me so hyped on this project, the slow journey to 60 is one of the best parts of vanilla, I mean, I much prefer how most classes are in wrath(because going OoM can be really frustrating) plus achievements, but the leveling feels way too fast.
I wonder if we will eventually see some horizontal progression. Happy with the TBC class talents and such. Maybe some kind of side progression on classes. At 60 get say a spell bar that lets you earn a point and give each spec or or class like 10-15 spells or abilities that cost 2 points. Basically earning you 5 spells/abilities. A customization for your class. Glyphs and Gems minus meta gems. Just more ways to customize your class.
This one gonna be good
I will really gladly watch oblivion videos
I think TBC had the best customizations to the classes. At least in TBC all the classes worked. You had 3 tanks that all worked differently. Your healers all worked different. But they worked.
i'd rather have arena or BGs to sate the pvp side of things, arenas are generally a fairer match than open world pvp and gives you a reward track rather than dying and having to spirit walk back or trying to balance HC mechanics without making a separate realm or server
i think the existence of HC and how much people enjoy it makes warmode and not shying away from other pvp support like arenas a better move for pvpers
also for the love of god, someone please make a pve/pvp skill balance split like in gw, does any server even do this ever???
Pvp is what makes me want to play wow these last 20 years.
Most people don't have an issue with PVP, they have an issue with world PVP.
My objective in Arena is to kill the enemy team. My objective in a BG is to help with said BG's winning condition and get some kills in the process. My objective in the open world is to either get 10 bear asses to level up or farm some materials, I don't have time for some dumbass trying to pick a fight.
To counter the "I don't like pvp because I lose" argument, even when I do win a world PVP fight my reward is being low on HP with most if not all abilities on cooldown. Great, that dumbass still managed to waste my time because my objective in the open world isn't to fight the other faction.
Better question would be why the fuck are you trying to reduce the open world to just be a hunger games arena when you have a controlled environment that will offer a better experience seeing as the players involved actually want to participate in PVP?
Your last paragraph is exactly the point. A controlled environment is why world pvp is so fun, its not controlled, there are no rules. It is completely organic. Guilds have fought wars in stv bc some guy lost a fight, its pretty fun. But I totally see your point, which is why they have pve and pvp. I think retail does warmode pretty well, if you turn it on then everyone you see has it on.
I wish turtlewow dev realize how important QoL to some player like me.
when I read that patch notes I know project epoch got it right.
I play in turtle wow for more than a year now. I might switch to this new server if there is no improvement in turtle wow
TWoW sucks now :( This feels so much smoother and a lot more fun.
Hyped!
Looking forward to the Oblivion gameplay, the game is a for me a favorite of mine and gold comedy for those that knows the memery that can happen.
I used to really be into world pvp but the reality it's that it's 9 unfulfilling fights for every 1 good fight. I say this as the person who predominantly ganked. Preventing horde groups from completing the elite dwarves quest solo in hillsbrad was my favourite part of lightshope. Your comments on warmode are true, it's a pointless addition. But it's sort of required with cross faction grouping. You can't cater to both world pvpers & people who don't want to be ganked at the same time.
I have 4 kids and work in the digital marketing industry with lots of clients.
PVP is not an option for me personally like a lot of people that can play for limited hours. We want to experience an RPG in this MMO classic + world without encountering griefers or losers.
Play PVP if you want, but try be a bit neutral with your stance.
I'm completely neutral actually. You're not seeing the bias in your very response. PvP is not = to encountering griefers or losers, I agree with you that griefers, campers, and toxic people who only do things in PvP for the sake of hurting their opponent are not doing a good thing and absolutely nobody wants to encounter that. My point is that we are punishing the entire concept of PvP because of the toxic parts, and that is inherently incorrect. At the precise moment that everything toxic is "fixed" in regards to PvP, what would the real reason be at that point for not wanting it? If the answer is, "I've tried to enjoy pvp at this point, but I'm losing too much and don't find it fun" then thats totally okay, but the answer would then be to avoid PvP, which you can easily do by just doing your dungeons and raids. Advocating for the demolition of the game mode, which a PvE server absolutely does to PvP players, is not the answer.
Here's another major thing to keep in mind that is proved through 15 years of WoWs existence across private servers and retail: a PvP server does not kill PvE, but a PvE server does kill PvP. If that alone doesn't show you a problem, I'd be surprised.
@@Mcdoubles Encountering griefers and losers are inevitable in WoW. Plus the original audience of WoW from 2004 now have jobs and families with limited game time which makes world PvP not an option.
Some folks like to explore the world and do quests and not just dungeons and raids lol.
Let people play what they want to play, it's their time after all. Look at it from a casuals perspective as not everyone is a streamer or youtuber.
I do think I am being very fair, but I understand where you're coming from. I just don't think the answer is to kill pvp, which by the very proof of every popular warmode server, these types of decisions seem to do. :(
muh wife, muh children waaaaaaaaaaaah
You talk alot about pvp in your videos recently, and while I respect your opinion, I simply have to disagree.
The last couple of years playing ascension, classic and now duskhaven, EVERY SINGLE world pvp interaction i have met has been griefing. It is either hyper twinks or max levels ruining leveling by killing npc's and camping quest zones, or groups of multiples looking for 2v1 or 3v1 fights.
Hell, even "fair" 1v1 fights of the same level, should it happens, is never fair. It is once again, the aggressor waiting for you to attack a mob, and only then take the fight, because you are at a disadvantage. Or low from a fight already.
As a solo player, I have not had a single fun, or even neutral world pvp interaction in years.
Secondly, having to balance around pve and pvp in the same game is a nightmare. You always end up ruining one side by nerfing the other. This is a common complaint in ascension and duskhaven alike.
You may feel world pvp is fun and should exist because you don't experience the downsides, and it was a part of the original game. Fair.
Personally, I feel it is a relic that serves no purpose, except give the insecure minority a chance to feel strong by picking fights they cannot lose.
Idea for a real PvP/PvE "fair" server.
1. You cannot attack or be attacked by another player for the first five minutes you log in.
2. You can only attack or be attacked by a player 4 levels on your level range.
3. You cannot kill a player more than 3 times consecutively on a period of 15/20 minutes.
4. If an NPC non quest related is being maintained in combat for more than 20 minutes, it will reset automatically and enter a 1 hour non attackable mode. If an NPC non quest related is being constantly killed (Bankers, Flight masters), after its fifth death will enter a non attackable mode for 1 hour.
I don't know how hard it would be to implement these options, but those are my ideas.
The gamemode of the server would be PvP.
These are all exactly the type of things I was thinking
Tanking is going to be incredible.
I love Orcs and i love Paladins. Wish there is a server who makes Orc Paladins playable.
Looks super good
You were talking about pvp and how Warmode is unfair. While I believe Warmode is not the most effective solution, I do think there needs to be gank protection if the server is a pvp server. Most of the time, the reason why people void pvp is because there really, really are more level 60s killing level 15s then level 15s killing level 15s. Maybe implement a system that does not allow you to attack players lower than 10 levels below you? Idk, but I appreciate the ability to disable world pvp, not because I don't like pvp, but because I don't like getting ganked, and until there's a proper solution, I welcome Warmode in classic servers.
I agree with you entirely. There should be all sorts of measures put in place to eliminate griefing and toxicity like camping players or killing quest givers. That's not pvp to me, that's being a jerk. But I do honestly believe some people's moral compass is off and they are lying to themselves and other people on this topic. I think people are using the toxicity that sometimes occurs to mask their hatred of losing to other people and because it's easier to remove the ability for people to fight you rather than to better yourself, they choose that option. Its a lack of nuance and also a bit devious.
As I've said in other comments, I don't always want to pvp and I don't always find class balance or specific situations to be fair even though they're just normal things that should be able to happen (like let's say I'm at 60%hp and get ganked, that sucks, but if the guy is in my level range that's just the game and I should just brush myself off and find a solution to it like ganking him back or calling in a similar leveled friend). But the big difference is that when I don't feel like pvping I just play around that feeling, I don't let my ego make me irrationally angry at all pvpers and then quit pvping for life and try to eliminate it from the game. From my perspective as someone who enjoys the entire game, pvp and pve, this is actually super messed up.
@@Mcdoubles I know what you're saying, which is why I'd really love a grief-gank protection over Warmode. I do think that World PvP is one of the most fun things in World of Warcraft, but my experience with it does mostly revolve around ganking (unfortunately so). Those using Warmode as a way to escape World PvP simply because it makes them uncomfortable, I do agree that is wrong. Your second paragraph essentially sums up my thoughts to a T. I do think that there are some unfortunate situations that may pull you away from wanting to PvP, but that isn't a reason to disable it altogether.
Keep up your content, by the way. I think your feedback on all the new Vanilla+ (or Classic+, depending on that poll) is extremely enjoyable and is very fun to watch. I hope you have just as much fun making the content as well. Good luck!
The problem with PvP Servers in WoW is simple.
Wether you play on a PvP or PvE Server makes no difference until it does.
The average player will not start to play WoW differently because of PvP. And because of that, PvP is usually considered an annoyance rather than an aspect of the world.
And while that experience is super frustrating to players, they still want to have that option aswell down the road.
Warmode does not "change" that core problem at all and just removed that "annoyance" aspect of PvP, while limiting PvP in general.
Rewarding players for PvP is also very tricky in general, because you don't want to encourage things like "win-trading" or accidently making it even more rewarding not to engage in PvP at all.
Faction or Guild based PvP also has it's issues, since there'll always be the idea of "winner team joiners" like we see with the official WoW Classic population.
So a good PvP Server needs a lot of very well crafted systems to work, since it's easy to mess up. And I don't know how to make PvP rewarding, while also not easy to abuse.
I can't wait for tomorrow
oh i am so ready for Oblivion as well as more WoW cahntetn
Warmode is done well in retail, bc once you are in warmode its basically a pvp server. Everyone you see is pvp. In turtle it kind of sucks bc a lot of ppl are pve even when you’re in warmode
My 2 favorite game series. Elder Scrolls (specially Oblivion) and WoW
This are my concern as someone who plays hybrid classes like druid, paladins and shamans alot. Anyone whos play classic or og vanilla will know that the druid/paladin/shaman specific gear were a mess and you were almost always force to play healing spec only (wish i dont mind), but it such a waste considering the classes have 2 other spec that are still enjoyable to play. i recently play Twow as a paladin and even tho is possible to be a tankadin in it i was stuck in a predicament were i didnt have a set and had to roll for warrior off pieces and there werent any paladin tank specific gear to help with mana or spell power forcing me to have a stretch thin build trying to make it work. so my hopes is that they can find a way for item progression to be worth your time for hybrid classes and not just be expecting that talent will be enough. And they would need to accomplish that without powercreeping cus the greatest downside of duskhaven imo, is the massive powercreep it has.
Druids still shite on twow though but I got your points
Yeah hybrid balance just about has to be done with talents and they need to be deep talents that have some negative drawback for a big boost in functionality. I'm certain I could do a very good job of fixing all of the hybrids, but just never had the opportunity. (gear isn't that big of an issue, it just needs a little tweaking and there are other fixes that can solve the problem, like custom versions you buy from a vendor with the original version)
Usually I agree with your takes, but your take on pvp is pretty shitty. The fact is, world pvp is unfair 95% of the time, either because you get jumped, ambushed, outlevelled, or the other guy simply plays a class that is much better suited for world pvp. If you really like fair pvp and not ambushing people while they're taking on 2-3 mobs, there are always BGs and Arenas...
saying that the leveling speed is pre bc speed doesn't say much. They increased the speed at least four times pre bc.
I get where McD is coming from but I think you have to face the reality that PvE and PvP WoW are really two separate games. Gear, talents, even stuff like class and race selection are all different if you're optimizing for PvE vs PvP. Asking PvE players to engage with PvP is asking them to fight uphill. Separating PvP and PvE in this way makes sense because they're already basically two separate games, and there's no real incentive for PvE players to participate in PvP, in the same way that PvP'ers really don't care about engaging with raids and other high-end PvE content unless there are important gear pieces for a PvP build.
If you want a world where everyone's encouraged to do both, then PvP stuff needs to help provide PvE incentives and vice-versa. Otherwise, WoW just really doesn't support trying to do both, you'll just end up a jack of all trades, master of none compared to people who spec hard into one or the other.
Swappable racials? I mean if retail did that classic people would despise it, saying it lost even that identity as well (and with good reason), I can't see it as a plus for classic in any way, where those 1% dps gains from racials wont matter if a Warlock outclasses a Ret pala in dps especially in AOE and its not even close. Yea PvP server is fine, but adding warmode still expands a PvE server too if you look at it that way. I have never ever gotten the idea of world pvp help me please why is it good? If someone attacked me I usually killed them, being fairly experienced in bgs and arenas, but I never got that why would I want to fuck up someones day in the open world, catching them off guard?
The reason so many people want to fuck up someones day in the open world is because they have a screw loose. They have a burning desire to hurt someone in some small way in the real world, but they are pathetic cowards, too afraid of the consequences if they tried their nastiness in the real world. There's a surprising amount of these people and they all need to see a damn shrink.
I swear if I were given GM powers on a server, the majority of my time would be punishing these scumbags, which is why I'll never be given the opportunity lol.
I wish just one of these servers would rebuild the Trinity and add some more CC and Buff classes that are needed for dungeon running. I liked TBC gear and stat’s better.
IVE BEEN SAYING IT SINCE BC, IF YOU CAN BE A WARRIOR AND A PRIEST YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE A PALADIN!!!
(Same with if you can be a Paladin, should be able to be a warrior, like BElf)
I don't think so. The priest lore is wider than the Paladin's, which is centered on the Holy Light.
Priest can be shadow priest, and Alonsus Faol is a holy priest, but he's the only one lore-wise.
Paladin's mission was to fight the (Warlocks and then) the Plague, an undead paladin would definetely committ suicide as soon as he regains his free will.
Not really, paladins only worship the Light.
Blizzard allowed some races like Night Elf to be priest like Troll and Night elf because they have some priest element even though they're not tied to the light, in lore they are priest of elune and voodoo shadow priests only. They should not be able to use holy spells but for gameplay reason they can obviously use anythnig in game they weren't entirely gonan remake the Priest class for some races. blizzard tried to justify and showcase this with the priest racials abilities, troll/undead spells are shadow, night elf is a moon spell etc
They changed gear/made new gear so do we know if there is an atlas that shows all the new gear changes?
no blood elves? they don't include my favorite ones >.>, i'm mad, piss, sad, not going to play, what am i suppose to do? be a human? meh, orc? meh, gimme the Sin'dorei !!!!
Just play a night elf
@@ramencakes5196 they are purple, they are fake elves XD, they could add blood elves as High Elves for the Alliance at least
tbh my only experience with open world pvp was pretty toxic so I can definitely understand why people don't like it. Warmode is kind of the only compromise between the two so it just is what it is. (My experience was being camped by a max level while being only level 10. It was enough to make me not want to play that server anymore. I even waited an hour or so to see if he'd leave but clearly I wasn't the only one in the area he was camping cuz he was STILL there. Nasty in chat too. I dont remember what server that was but it's long dead now I think. Probably for the best if toxic chat wasn't being moderated :) )
I think its a bit telling that many pvp servers die off quickly, at least in the player hosted scene. PVE people won't play on it, and even people who like pvp may get tired of being ganked by max levels who had an early start. That was my experience, and thus why I personally don't play on those servers. These communities need to consider their own longevity and sadly open pvp has proven to not be very sustainable comparatively.
Probably was warmane or turtle wow
@@Rickseriastar This is exactly always been my experience. I do not play private servers at all. The end. My time is too valuable to waste doing NOTHING because some mentally ill person wants to hurt others anonymously like a pathetic coward. If it comes to a choice between pvp, or another server without pvp, I'll pick another server every time.
People love to say they only want fair fights, but they are clearly in the minority. Pvp servers are almost universally for nasty people to get their jollies hurting other people IRL without fear of consequences.
Be great if you could only kill players within 5-10 levels and they can't be killed by any/the same player for like, 10-15 mins or so after dying to a player, either once or multiple times (unless they attack or flag again). Played another game with a similar system and it felt pretty nice
Have you played Elder Scrolls games before? Is this a blind playthrough or going back to nostalgia?
Nostalgia
open world pvp rewards = make two acounts- farm it out - profit
Most pvp is fair lol. Yeah. A rogue and hunter and wizard group running around ganking solos all day is very fair I agree xD xD xD Because taht hasnt been a fact for the ENTIRETY of WoW's history, hence why all PVP servers are dead and always die when made lol. Its almost like the community's all ready self-solved the griefing.
Not all pvp is toxic pvp, and killing pvp to avoid the toxic pvp is unjust.
Like, I'm with you man, 3 people ganking solos is cringe and I don't want it in the game. But I love being lvl 29 and finding a lvl 30 and fighting him organically while questing. I also love a good back and forth and also I love that it sometimes turns into a big fight or small skirmish with other players. A lot of what makes the game good is being taken from people so that some people never have to be made to feel bad a small percentage of the time. It doesn't make sense
HYPE
So when is the open beta available?
Undead paladins do not work lorewise.
This ruins it for me.
Totally right. Besides, didn't the light hurt the undead in Warcraft lore? I understand the class of a fallen paladin who uses necromantic magic, but light...
Oblivion is really fun
Tank shamans would just be fit, but they don't care about shamans. Only the druids and paladins will also be able to main tank and that's a pity!
very nice
based view on pvp
If people have the option to not pvp on world map ,the server is already garbage from the start. A ton of people will freely farm on the map with no stress. People will explore whatever territory they want ,without the feeling of being ganked ,as it should be ,because players defend their faction lands and mats .This is garbage. All hipe i had for the server ,now its gone.
Pve focused servers are not garbage.
People just don't want to pvp.
Deal with it
as a person that loves pvp.....fuck world pvp.
each faction having another option for druid wouldve been nice. not everyone wants to be an elf or cow =(
I wish these servers added druid trolls they have the coolest looking forms
How about vanilla+ exclusive to northrend? You start there, quest there,...
Would be cool ngl
@@Mcdoubles nice of you to interact with your community too! Keep it going! +1
I enjoyed my PvP server back in the day but I could hit my ‘PvE server when I didn’t want to deal with it.
My thing is su re i agree with you about what War Mode is. but the Point is and reason why most servers choose to use it is because the vas majority of players dont want world pvp, Its annoying as hell and just turns into a way for your fun to be destroyed while you're trying to play. What happened in bliz classic being on a pvp server there was so annoying. Even if you're decent at PVP and win most of your fights its still annoying when you're trying to quest and keep getting attacked or get attacked by a ton of ppl ect, The point is Most ppl dont want world PVP. So they have to use War mode to try to make the Ppl who do want it happy kuz THey know making it a real PVP server will drive alot of ppl away
"Waaah, the War Mode PVE players won't let me gank and grief and bully them! No fairs!"
How long is the beta available
Is that pvp gear for honor only? No other reqs? Far better than forced arena for top pvp gear (WoW pvp started going to shit when blizz started trying to force arena, which is something most pvpers back in the day really didn't enjoy). I still think Vanilla's pvp gearing system was far better than any of the expansions systems (obviously the raid gear worked for pvp as well). Overall vanilla just wasn't as flawed as any of the expansions in this sense.
The racial stuff made this seem like it could be a great PvP server. With the main detriment of vanilla pvp usually being racials being too strong.
Shame this is just another PvE server for people to raidlog and dead PvP. my heart sank when I saw the word warmode
Having played TBC classic through to completion I do worry some about balance and gameplay. Are we going to see the BM hunter/Destro Lock/Arcane Mage meta where you stack those to zug bosses down? What about low damage utility classes like Ret Pally and Shadow Priests? Will their damage be brought up be competitive? Am I gonna have to Seal Twist as ret for example? Hunter Shot clipping and Melee Weaving now a thing?
Don't get me wrong, I love TBC class design. TBC prot pally was my main and I love it with how it unique the gearing and mechanics were on it. But, there's reasons why classes in wrath are more fondly remembered than classes in TBC.
Wonder if UBRS and lower will be 10 man or what.
all dungeons will be 10 men, "small raids" like ZG will be 10, raids will be 25
Too bad the racial changes are not what i wanted. I want real lore like racials that make your race 30% of your character. I want orcs to be feared arms warriors and locks, I want trolls to regen all of their hp like wolverine with fire weakness....... I want Tauren to take 3x the damage than any other class to take down... I want elves to be wicked casters and dwarves be ale slamming badasses. Humans gain stats while in proximity to allies and shit like that....
I think pvp is garbage and I don't really care about it other than finding it an annoyance. And most people agree with me on this, otherwise pvp wouldn't be dead
It's the underlying reason for people choosing this line of thinking that disturbs me not the fact that they don't like pvp in general. But moreso, it's the fact that people believe eliminating the natural way for the game to be played because they might lose to someone else in the process is actually the correct way to go about it, that disturbs me the most. The thing is, I don't always want to pvp either and sometimes I find class balance to be so off that I don't find it skill based in some expansions or versions of the game. Yet I don't call to remove it, I just play around it and accept it as part of the faction based war rpg that I'm playing.
As I've said, it would be easy to implement anti griefing integrity changes to your pvp server so that the game is still World of WARcraft but without a lvl 60 rogue killing Westfall quest givers or dropping infernals on people, or camping your alt with their main, or camping you in general. But instead of going there, we find a creative way to kill pvp entirely and then gaslight people who enjoy pvp if they don't like it. I find that saddening as someone who enjoys all aspects of the game I play.
So really I'm appealing to people's morals and their ability to be honest over their own personal wants here and hoping that's enough to sway them from the selfish side
the warmode compromise cemented that, if given an option, people will opt out of being someone elses content. regardless how Mc tries to gaslight people, short of calling them pve andies or carebears.
"most people"? The pserver cry babies that left the Wow forums years ago you mean
@Shiirow warmode is great, the issue is sharding. For whatever reason blizzard is unable to have near 50/50 shards. You either get into 1/99 shard one way or the other. Either you're in mass gankfest shard or mass buttclap. Never balanced
I've never called someone a pve andie or carebear and I'm not gaslighting, I'm being as plain and trying to be as objective as possible
"Only 10% of pvp is the toxic bit" litteraly the only times i'm pvped out in the open world it's ganking and corpsecamping. Or they attack me when i'm at half health and fighting a mob. I for one am very happy i don't have to deal with it. It is not an "inconvience" it just straigt up make me quite and maybe come back later. There is no fun in pvp when you are only ever engaged in it in situations where you don't have a chance to fight back.
PvP is fair in arenas and bg's
That might imply that you don't ever attempt PvP in any other way, so you're just someone that "gets pvp'd on" rather than someone that actively attempts to engage in it themselves. If this were true, it wouldn't be a surprise that all of your encounters are the negative bits. But when you don't avoid PvP while leveling and treat it as a part of the game, I can promise you from 15 years of experience that the toxic bits are definitely minority bits. At least in my anecdotal experience.
alliance had an advantage pre bc because of the threat reduction buff of paladins. It was just annoying.
Oblivion pog
I think there are too many private servers and not enough players. Everyone tries to do that one thing, stretching the already thin private server player base even further
kinda have to agree with this one, but you only really need like 800 to 1000 players to make it work really well, more players won't change anything.
What are those racials????? It's as if those people have no faction bias and want people to play what they actually like!
Fun racials, full of flavor, but no advantage whatsoever. Vanilla devs, take notes.
I'm assuming that's the case, since half of them are clearly only visual or specifically say "you appear as if", while the ones that could have an effect, don't have one in their description.
Also, it'd be funny if randomly Lo'Gosh took on Varian's form and you ride on Varian ROFL.
It'd be also cool if the undead could have a few "dead elf" faces. So you can RP as a dark ranger ;]
I'd be cool if there was a FFA PvP server.
Where in typical MMO tradition, any small-pp sadist can one-shot a lowbie. BUT!! then you'll be able to place a bounty on their heads.
And he will be visible for many hours on the map to people who have chosen to be "bounty hunters".
Bounty hunting could be a secondary profession. And if you toggle it on, you track the "wanted" players.
And you can have an additional currency tab, "heads collected" just for show.
"priest racials" is a nice way to make each race more fitting.
But i think the best way to do it, is to just change the visuals, and maybe the names, while keeping the spells identical.
Like, humans and highelves would use light visuals, nightelves and tauren would use "moon" visuals like penance/starshards/moonfire, undead and trolls would use shadow, gnomes and goblins would use zap-beams, and so on.
Tauren Priest but no Paladin ?
Worgen Paladins when?
Too bad there is no NE shaman. I've always wanted to play that.
Unfortunately I'm already out. I get that it's strictly Vanilla+ and I respect that, but making it all TBC state and excluding the TBC races is a failure for me. I love having more racial options in an already restrained setting of old WoW. More race/class combos of the vanilla stuff only band aids that so much for me, especially when it's two of my favorite races excluded forever. I hope Epoch finds success, though.
I agree that having more racial options is ideal, especially with how competitive the scene is now. I asked the head dev Ktotes about his opinions on adding custom races, and based on his response it seems like he felt it was an irrelevant thing. That wasn't great for my ears, but it's not my server and a lot of this is genuinely very competently done so I'm going to give it a try in the open beta and see if I enjoy it enough to keep playing it when it launches. The thing with these super slow XP servers in 2023 is that if they don't have major draws to them, they won't appeal to as many people.
Turtle hit gold with HC mode before anyone else in the scene had it in a competent way, while also having the first real custom V+ content for people to explore in a traditional Vanilla world. But even that was not enough to make me stay, personally, because the fact that the server is progressed all the way to Naxx already and has been for years, and the fact that once the 1-60 journey is over your options are to do a watered down version of the max level journey (watered down because the only thing that really keeps max level fun in WoW is when you're progressing alongside everyone, not when you're catching up) or to reroll with slow rates once again - it really just puts these guys in a bad place. Turtle WoW owns the market and, once again, got away with being the first to do it. But the guys trying to be the 2nd and 3rd to do it are going to have to be exceptional, and even though some people think their race doesn't matter in game, for many people that ALONE is enough to get them to play a server and stick to it. It's these types of custom changes that make the game worth playing.
100% agree with you on that. Hell, seeing 'Undead Paladin' alone in the title initially got me going a bit wide eyed, but knowing that races naturally included by Blizz are, in their own words, *never* going to be playable is just..disheartening to me, especially as someone that's played since the beginning when I was a child. It just feels kind of gutting, you know?
Largely even moreso gutting with precisely what you've said here of the fact that each new server needs this imperative to have *something* to draw people in and actually want to take root and stay and help cultivate life into it. I mean hell, I'll admit I've been getting a little more intrigued with Duskhaven despite the fact I personally just hate looking at the old crusty models of the playable races from way back when. The stuff you've showcased in it make it genuinely seem a bit more interesting compared to some of the other V+ servers I've heard of. Even if I will never touch it, I sincerely hope Epoch manages to find something like what Duskhaven's done to hook, line and sinker some audience retention. I'll admit part of what drives me away from Epoch even more is what you mentioned as well of the slow rates; I don't have the time nor attention span anymore to level with super slow rates en masse anymore like I did when I was a kid who got to play WoW after school and didn't really have a desire nor ability to take the levelling seriously to get into the endgame. Now as an adult though, I'd rather be able to just get there and see what's all to offer at the end as much as the journey, you know? Especially with busy schedules.
@@morinthianhound I finally bit the rag and tried duskhaven and turtle, i prefered duskhaven. Having hardcore debuffs so youre forced to play real hardcore and dont have to record it all is nice. Turtle was just a bit too slow for a 23 year old with work, hard core with 1.5x content means it will take all day to level to 15 but not as long as turtle
The races lore wouldn't be cannon in vanilla, they'll likely come up with their own draenei/blood elf lore in the future.
To be honest TBC's lore was awful and doesn't fit vanilla
think ill pass on this one. it has a lot that i like, but more that i dont. the custom stuff i was reading looks good but some stuff is just "why did you make that choice". most of it comes down to the things they say they wont do, why would they limit them self's like that
Agreed big time on the limitations and the finality of it. I legit monologued to myself when I read it on their site about how weird it was to make a decision like that, especially when the custom landscape is actually competitive now
@Mcdoubles they even say it's for lore. but if it was, paladin and priest would be removed from undead, not that I want that. but even blizzard said they ret cond the lore here for game play sake 🙄 and because they couldn't make necromancer work in time for vanilla