People don’t realise that Doris is literally never injured either, a bit like Heaslip. Really impressive in such an attritional position. Genuinely don’t know what this Ireland side looks like without him.
Another top video. The fact that you always hold my attention without having any rights to show clips to illustrate your arguments is testament to the lucidity of your points. Weirdly, Tim, you have cost me money. I really enjoy your analysis, but I feel like an eejit when you are talking about a game I haven't seen. I'm now paying more per month for sports subscriptions than I ever have in my life, and, basically, it's your fault. Please keep making it worth my while - I'm sure you will!
I know what you’re saying, me too, buying subscriptions. But today I took myself of to an Irish pub in Morden (London) called Ganleys to watch Leinster, great game, good result. I hail from Connacht but follow all the Irish matches.
I played my first game of Rugby at Openside Flanker, didn't even have a training session. 1 training session in and then yesterday the day after my 39th birthday played/started at FullBack and then second half onto the 11 spot. But i gotta say, i did love been in the Scrum. it's great craic. But Rugby is a blood though sport. I had huge respect for Rugby players before i started playing, now I've even much more.
Alot of podcasts in England have Ben Earl nailed down as lion's no.8 , watched him yesterday in at no.7 for saracens, as long as Doris is fit then no.8 jersey is his.
Doris is pretty much the best number 8 around right now, what a player. Takes a lot to upstage Savea, but he did it. Glad to see our boy Jasper Wiese getting some live too, I think he has been excellent as well. Kwagga Smith being a top 10 Number 8 is both funny and true at the same time. True because he is really good, funny because that's bot his usual role and he normally only gets twenty minutes of game time.
As usual, excellent list. So, going into the 6 nations, Doris, Earl and Dempsey are going down under. To me that's nailed down. Wainwright as the first backup, I'm not sure about. I'm sure Tom Willis, Conan and Coombes would be scratching their head with this. IMHO, there should be a second Lions pick after the nations summer tours, where as many as 23 players get picked to go, to fullfil the last 2 midweek fixtures and have a shot at the 3rd test. It would make more sense than having a Geography 6 scenario or how Tom Court and Shane Williams managed to win a Lions shirt in 2013.
Regarding the ‘No.8’ name, it is worth noting that game didn’t always have regulated scrum formations. In the original All Blacks teams, they famously used a ‘diamond formation’ - a 2-3-2 split with a ‘wing forward’ putting the ball into the scrum which allowed the scrum half to stand at the back of the scrum for a quick distribution. They employed two hookers and two players at the back of the scrum, so there wasn’t a ‘No.8’ to speak of.
Thanks for this, i didn't know. My old club (Gainsborough All Blacks) had some set ups that were possibly influenced by our namesakes! 3 locks(the extra set up between loose head and flanker), the 8 chose whichever pair of locks he wanted! That was when hookers competed!! scrum halves would put-in down the middle, spin on the ball....or there was one who would chuck in end over end!! Dark arts in the front row made for great crack in the bar!
He's filled in competently every single variable place he's been put on from the bench, i have in mind 8 might be the only place he's been started. Do you take PSDT off for him when you could just take someone else? I would play him instead of Kolisi, there's plenty of leadership in the boks and leadership is the only thing kolisi excels at.
I think Falatau will come in and move Wainwright to 6 - his real position. I’m not sure Earl has been firing recently: I hope he finds his 2023 and early ‘24 form again soon.
SA's depth is so ridiculous that a guy like Juarno Augustus playing out of his skin for Northampton can't even get a look-in! Even with Ardie, case for Sititi @8 with Finau @6 for Chiefs & NZ?
Finau needs to mature mentally. He's a bit of a meathead even though he's got amazing raw talent. Needs more time to develop but could be amazing if he does...
Would like to see placing based on current form. Often players get boosted from precious achievements, when ranking the best the pick the best rn. No point saying best 8 in the world rn if they are not. Tbh though I do agree with list, but jasper got to be higher and earl got to be lower. Got to start judging players on how they went against the sh because that’s when they verse the best players
I might need to oay a little more attention to Oviedo. Didn't expect him so high up. Savea to 2 is fair. Had a slow start (for him) to int'l games in '24, and may have lost his impact slightly, but really was bloody good in the November tests. Doris, Aldritt class
@ Disagree. Even from the poor 5 minute highlights you can see him sucking in defenders, some great lines being run, a good gain line break and a solid try saving tackle.
@@eoinh3816 I’m not sure that your comprehension of the English language is the best. I said ‘even’ implying that just a short badly edited highlights video is enough to show his ability. That’s my point. 🤦♂️ I’m sure you yourself have judged the players performance level off of more than one game.😬 Feel free to peruse his recent performances if you still doubt his class. 😉
Because it's between 7 and 9 lol. Seriously, as a Scotland fan it's fantastic to have a representative in the top 10 forwards, apart from hooker. Also, since Dempsey has been out injured, Jack Mann has performed for Glasgow with aplomb 👏👏👏
I ask myself only one question, Who do I want as number one player from my bench or to start for my team, well then about 11 players from your lists will make space for Kwagga on the No. 6 or No 8 Position, who else can play inside or outside centre as well. Huge number of players on this no. 8 or no. 6 lists, does not have the influence or impact on a test match, more than Kwagga Smit. And I say this, not because I am a South African or biased, I say this because it is a fact. And for the past three years I can prove it what impact Kwagga Smit makes when he comes on the field to play, Boks behind or in front. Now I am a big fan of Alldritt, Savea and Doris, but the rest is not that influential on a game.
Well, I thought Alldritt would have lost a couple of places (even if I like this player very much), given his poor 6N performances. And for historical number 8s, I don’t know why Sergio Parisse is so often overlooked… a hell of a player, and if he had played for a more competitive team, he would definitely be considered as one of the greatest ever.
@Holloweve crowley's team did better so therefore he must be better kinda logic. To counter than argument, Russell went to Bath who were bottom of the prem and they've been no1 last 2 years
The etymology of rugby words is fascinating. I recall hearing long ago that it had something to do with getting a try to kick at goal? A try was 1 point and a goal was 2 points or something along those lines? In Afrikaans a try is called a "drie" which translates to literally the word three. You score a three. That was because when rugby became popular agomst Afrikaners a try was worth 3 points. If you then kicked the goal they used to say the try was "vervyf" which translates to the try was fived as it counted 5 points altogether. Ut the 2nd part is not user anymore as a try last counted 3 points half a century ago. Now we copied the English, and we say a directly translated they succeeded in kicking the goal.
I don't like that number 8 doesn't have some unique name. In Polish (I know we don't really play rugby) we call them scrum tier (tier like to tie something or necktie)
I'd stick with Ardie. Biased though. Only watched Doris in the SA series were he was great and against the ABs which in the last 2 meetings being the WC and the recent fixture he was very quiet.
Hanekom not already being on this list is criminal, guy is already a top 10 number 8 in the world he destroyed and manhandled Doris when he played Leinster. also wouldn’t be surprised next year if sititi wouldn’t be on this list. Although he plays 6, definitely would make an amazing number 8 too
Savea is deserved No1, an extremely athletic and dynamic player in the any of the back three positions. SA needs another barnstorming player like Vermeulen. Wiese isn´t there yet and there isn´t a clear backup to Wiese as well. In addition, let´s be honest that Kwagga Smith is not an eighthman.
Mata shouldn't have been dropped out of the top 10. He was nails at Edinburgh and doing the same thing at Bristol. Savea is better at 7, with Sititi at 8.
Have to say, as an England fan, that Earl is not top 4. He had a phenomenal '23 but has been in slow/ steady decline in '24. He's a great player but isn't big and powerful enough to sit at the top table. His decision making under pressure is also poor. Wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't in the starting XV by end of the 6N
I remember a South African commentator telling me I was crazy to say Ben Earl is better than Kwagga. Both great players of course, but I agree Earl is a bit better when on top form, especially over a whole 80 minutes.
K.Smith will be remembered for his illicit grabbing (ny putting his hand on the ground) at the end of the WC quarter final for which he got a penalty against France instead of him and converted expertly by H.Pollard for the final win.
Earl is so overrated- poor discipline, misses a few vital tackles eg v Scotland and SA and if refs ever picked up on his frequent no arms tackle 🤷♂️Wiese , Wilson and Dempsey all better
Not sure what you mean by “more valuable than a win”? Doris had plenty of wins this year, including the 6N and beating the Boks in SA (something no other team managed).
@@goonbosstv5349 I get it now. The wpoty Savea was previous year so irrelevant this year as Doris was in final players this year and only number 8 up there
@ConorOLeary-rl4bs not irrelevant at all as Tim says in every video he is choosing based on current AND historic form. If being the WPotY in 2023 is irrelevant, then I'm not sure what he means by historic form.
it dpends on the type of 9 u want bortwick sticks to a 4rd prop rather then dynamic person, its why dom brant sux without dominant pack! argentian chewed him up and spat hiom out this weekend
People don’t realise that Doris is literally never injured either, a bit like Heaslip. Really impressive in such an attritional position. Genuinely don’t know what this Ireland side looks like without him.
Conan and Coombes aren't bad backups, to be fair.
@@michaelmartin2075 Conan and Coombes are great, but Doris is another level. He is genuine world class
And Brian Gleeson coming through
Heaslip! What a player he was...! Papa should have been redcarded...
Another top video. The fact that you always hold my attention without having any rights to show clips to illustrate your arguments is testament to the lucidity of your points. Weirdly, Tim, you have cost me money. I really enjoy your analysis, but I feel like an eejit when you are talking about a game I haven't seen. I'm now paying more per month for sports subscriptions than I ever have in my life, and, basically, it's your fault. Please keep making it worth my while - I'm sure you will!
I know what you’re saying, me too, buying subscriptions. But today I took myself of to an Irish pub in Morden (London) called Ganleys to watch Leinster, great game, good result. I hail from Connacht but follow all the Irish matches.
I played my first game of Rugby at Openside Flanker, didn't even have a training session. 1 training session in and then yesterday the day after my 39th birthday played/started at FullBack and then second half onto the 11 spot.
But i gotta say, i did love been in the Scrum. it's great craic.
But Rugby is a blood though sport. I had huge respect for Rugby players before i started playing, now I've even much more.
Top work Tim. Like Caelan Doris, your work is top class and getting even better
Imagine this lot at an american scrimmage? Ardie was outstanding during Razors bumpy start. Thor is grooming some outstanding back rows. Good.
Your videos are goated now. I'm looking forward to see the backline
no they sux! hes a douche who went to SA but didnt even mention u20 WRC happening at same time!
@@iamnutty8471And yet, here you are watching and commenting on his videos.
Alot of podcasts in England have Ben Earl nailed down as lion's no.8 , watched him yesterday in at no.7 for saracens, as long as Doris is fit then no.8 jersey is his.
Do you think Doris and VDF will
Be starting for the lions if they maintain this form beyond the 6 nations? I can’t see it being anyone else honestly
Its mad to think Jack Conan hasn't put a foot wrong since 2021 lions tour but its not even a question about who starts for club and country
Doris is pretty much the best number 8 around right now, what a player. Takes a lot to upstage Savea, but he did it.
Glad to see our boy Jasper Wiese getting some live too, I think he has been excellent as well.
Kwagga Smith being a top 10 Number 8 is both funny and true at the same time. True because he is really good, funny because that's bot his usual role and he normally only gets twenty minutes of game time.
Enjoyed ur feature yesterday at the rugby!
Make vlogs on the sideline of the games you work at, would love to see the background work of a game
Some serious talent there. Thanks Tim.
As usual, excellent list. So, going into the 6 nations, Doris, Earl and Dempsey are going down under. To me that's nailed down. Wainwright as the first backup, I'm not sure about. I'm sure Tom Willis, Conan and Coombes would be scratching their head with this.
IMHO, there should be a second Lions pick after the nations summer tours, where as many as 23 players get picked to go, to fullfil the last 2 midweek fixtures and have a shot at the 3rd test. It would make more sense than having a Geography 6 scenario or how Tom Court and Shane Williams managed to win a Lions shirt in 2013.
Regarding the ‘No.8’ name, it is worth noting that game didn’t always have regulated scrum formations. In the original All Blacks teams, they famously used a ‘diamond formation’ - a 2-3-2 split with a ‘wing forward’ putting the ball into the scrum which allowed the scrum half to stand at the back of the scrum for a quick distribution. They employed two hookers and two players at the back of the scrum, so there wasn’t a ‘No.8’ to speak of.
Thanks for this, i didn't know. My old club (Gainsborough All Blacks) had some set ups that were possibly influenced by our namesakes! 3 locks(the extra set up between loose head and flanker), the 8 chose whichever pair of locks he wanted! That was when hookers competed!! scrum halves would put-in down the middle, spin on the ball....or there was one who would chuck in end over end!!
Dark arts in the front row made for great crack in the bar!
Kwagga's not an 8, it boggles the mind that he keeps getting picked there - he's a classic Bok 6 fetcher!!! The End. 🤘
He's filled in competently every single variable place he's been put on from the bench, i have in mind 8 might be the only place he's been started. Do you take PSDT off for him when you could just take someone else?
I would play him instead of Kolisi, there's plenty of leadership in the boks and leadership is the only thing kolisi excels at.
I think Falatau will come in and move Wainwright to 6 - his real position. I’m not sure Earl has been firing recently: I hope he finds his 2023 and early ‘24 form again soon.
SA's depth is so ridiculous that a guy like Juarno Augustus playing out of his skin for Northampton can't even get a look-in! Even with Ardie, case for Sititi @8 with Finau @6 for Chiefs & NZ?
Finau needs to mature mentally. He's a bit of a meathead even though he's got amazing raw talent. Needs more time to develop but could be amazing if he does...
Using premiership form to asses how good a player is is one of the biggest mistakes in the book.
Would like to see placing based on current form. Often players get boosted from precious achievements, when ranking the best the pick the best rn. No point saying best 8 in the world rn if they are not. Tbh though I do agree with list, but jasper got to be higher and earl got to be lower. Got to start judging players on how they went against the sh because that’s when they verse the best players
I might need to oay a little more attention to Oviedo. Didn't expect him so high up. Savea to 2 is fair. Had a slow start (for him) to int'l games in '24, and may have lost his impact slightly, but really was bloody good in the November tests. Doris, Aldritt class
Tom Willis to appear on this list next time around after a blinding six nations putting himself into contention for the Lions squad🤞🦁
@@JoshuaBrunell Did you not see Willis last night? He was utterly anonymous. Saracens had no one to carry the ball over the gain line.
@ Disagree. Even from the poor 5 minute highlights you can see him sucking in defenders, some great lines being run, a good gain line break and a solid try saving tackle.
@@JoshuaBrunell You clearly didn’t watch the game. Judging a players performance on a 2 min highlight video over 80 mins. My lord.
@@eoinh3816 I’m not sure that your comprehension of the English language is the best. I said ‘even’ implying that just a short badly edited highlights video is enough to show his ability. That’s my point. 🤦♂️ I’m sure you yourself have judged the players performance level off of more than one game.😬 Feel free to peruse his recent performances if you still doubt his class. 😉
@@JoshuaBrunella few missing commas and a bit of tautology. Never a good thing when criticising someone’s language skills.
Thanks Tim
Because it's between 7 and 9 lol. Seriously, as a Scotland fan it's fantastic to have a representative in the top 10 forwards, apart from hooker. Also, since Dempsey has been out injured, Jack Mann has performed for Glasgow with aplomb 👏👏👏
No mistakes here both Doris and Savea are no.1 in my books
Suggested names for no. 8 - Atlas - they carry the world on their shoulder, Bumper, Juggernaut, Boom, Link.
Hello, who is your current favorite player in the world?
What about Tom Wills?
I ask myself only one question, Who do I want as number one player from my bench or to start for my team, well then about 11 players from your lists will make space for Kwagga on the No. 6 or No 8 Position, who else can play inside or outside centre as well. Huge number of players on this no. 8 or no. 6 lists, does not have the influence or impact on a test match, more than Kwagga Smit.
And I say this, not because I am a South African or biased, I say this because it is a fact. And for the past three years I can prove it what impact Kwagga Smit makes when he comes on the field to play, Boks behind or in front. Now I am a big fan of Alldritt, Savea and Doris, but the rest is not that influential on a game.
Caelan Doris.
How did you forget about Jack Conan. He’s in the top 5 best number 8s in world rugby.
Well, I thought Alldritt would have lost a couple of places (even if I like this player very much), given his poor 6N performances. And for historical number 8s, I don’t know why Sergio Parisse is so often overlooked… a hell of a player, and if he had played for a more competitive team, he would definitely be considered as one of the greatest ever.
Jesus Christ Tim, we've been waiting for your champions cup videos for over twelve hours. you said you would
Do you want him to sleep😂
Haha. I have to watch games before I can talk about them. All in good time.
Finn Russell also an automatic Lions starter IMO
This year he wasn't clearly Better than M.Smith or maybe even Crowley
@@leonardogianelli2355Crowley ? Ok I’m missing something. Please elaborate
@Holloweve crowley's team did better so therefore he must be better kinda logic.
To counter than argument, Russell went to Bath who were bottom of the prem and they've been no1 last 2 years
Different position
Seeing that we’re having a quiz do you know why a try is called a try?
I do ;) (i won't spoil it for anyone reading the comment and wanting a guess)
Because it originally gave you a 'try' at kicking a goal
I've always assumed it meant you were given a chance at kicking a goal, possibly only getting points for the kick.
The etymology of rugby words is fascinating. I recall hearing long ago that it had something to do with getting a try to kick at goal? A try was 1 point and a goal was 2 points or something along those lines?
In Afrikaans a try is called a "drie" which translates to literally the word three. You score a three. That was because when rugby became popular agomst Afrikaners a try was worth 3 points. If you then kicked the goal they used to say the try was "vervyf" which translates to the try was fived as it counted 5 points altogether. Ut the 2nd part is not user anymore as a try last counted 3 points half a century ago. Now we copied the English, and we say a directly translated they succeeded in kicking the goal.
Because by putting the ball over the line was worth 3 (tri) points
Wrong.
Kwagga Smith is a natural open side flank and should reflect there.
I don't like that number 8 doesn't have some unique name. In Polish (I know we don't really play rugby) we call them scrum tier (tier like to tie something or necktie)
Kwagga is a bench beast.
Yes, he has been but . . . . . . . . .
Now that is a joke. Savea is brilliant but had his quietest year for The ABs I can recall.
You’ve said it yourself. However, Caelan Doris has had a full on fighting year and has shown what he is about, top man.
No Cameron Hanekom? Been brilliant in 2024 and will be in the future
He will be great. 21 minutes of international rugby only at this point though.
I'd stick with Ardie. Biased though. Only watched Doris in the SA series were he was great and against the ABs which in the last 2 meetings being the WC and the recent fixture he was very quiet.
I would suggest you ‘twist’. Caelan Doris has had a mighty year, and continues to perform, cannot fault him.
Hanekom not already being on this list is criminal, guy is already a top 10 number 8 in the world he destroyed and manhandled Doris when he played Leinster. also wouldn’t be surprised next year if sititi wouldn’t be on this list. Although he plays 6, definitely would make an amazing number 8 too
He's played 21 minutes of international rugby. He'll be there in good time.
@@EggchasersRugbytrue pollock maybe on this list in the future too potentially? Looks like an amazing player for the future
Savea is deserved No1, an extremely athletic and dynamic player in the any of the back three positions. SA needs another barnstorming player like Vermeulen. Wiese isn´t there yet and there isn´t a clear backup to Wiese as well. In addition, let´s be honest that Kwagga Smith is not an eighthman.
Give Cameron Hanekom another season at top level and he will be The Man!
Hanekom
Savea is well past his sell by date .he is well out of top 5. Tim are you serious. 😂😂😂😂😂
Savea is brilliant, but 2024 was not his year. He looked lost for a large portion after being away in Japan.
So, how do feel about Caelan Doris being Tim’s No 1 choice?
Mata shouldn't have been dropped out of the top 10. He was nails at Edinburgh and doing the same thing at Bristol.
Savea is better at 7, with Sititi at 8.
That earls pic needs work. A LOT of work.
Have to say, as an England fan, that Earl is not top 4. He had a phenomenal '23 but has been in slow/ steady decline in '24. He's a great player but isn't big and powerful enough to sit at the top table. His decision making under pressure is also poor. Wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't in the starting XV by end of the 6N
I remember a South African commentator telling me I was crazy to say Ben Earl is better than Kwagga. Both great players of course, but I agree Earl is a bit better when on top form, especially over a whole 80 minutes.
K.Smith will be remembered for his illicit grabbing (ny putting his hand on the ground) at the end of the WC quarter final for which he got a penalty against France instead of him and converted expertly by H.Pollard for the final win.
I promise you he will not be remembered for that 😂😂😂 two time world cup winner, only you are fixating on that bud. Let it go.
Kwagga? How on earth can he move down? You are losing the plot boet!
Kwagga would be my first choice player, before I announced the starting lineup
In fairness, He did not shine when he started, as Tim mentioned. All other players on the list did not have that caveat.
I agree that when he starts he isn’t the same player but he’s the ultimate bench player of all time?
@@davidmaclennan5925 Maybe Tim should have a bench impact top 10 list
Earl is so overrated- poor discipline, misses a few vital tackles eg v Scotland and SA and if refs ever picked up on his frequent no arms tackle 🤷♂️Wiese , Wilson and Dempsey all better
No Jack Conan? You’re having a laugh.
So what you're saying is a WPotY NOMINATION is more valuable than a win? Current AND historic form, eh? Come on, Tim, your bias is showing. 😉
?
Not sure what you mean by “more valuable than a win”? Doris had plenty of wins this year, including the 6N and beating the Boks in SA (something no other team managed).
@@goonbosstv5349 I get it now. The wpoty Savea was previous year so irrelevant this year as Doris was in final players this year and only number 8 up there
@ConorOLeary-rl4bs not irrelevant at all as Tim says in every video he is choosing based on current AND historic form. If being the WPotY in 2023 is irrelevant, then I'm not sure what he means by historic form.
Nope.
Your bias towards English players is tiring. No way is Earl better than Dempsey
If you don’t have anything nice to say…
Your scottish bias is showing, earl is better
it dpends on the type of 9 u want bortwick sticks to a 4rd prop rather then dynamic person, its why dom brant sux without dominant pack! argentian chewed him up and spat hiom out this weekend