I admit they announced faithless looting was unbanned my first thought was 'how in the world was faithless ever banned', but on reflection about how much the graveyard is the hand 2.0 in modern, it makes more sense. Still feels like the kind of card that should be there, broken, in the broken format.
Thank you for bringing up the "core identity" element. I have no problem with cards like Dark Confidant getting power crept out of the format; I do, however, have a problem with format-defining *archetypes* like Jund, GDS, and Zoo becoming nearly unplayable. Thankfully, this ban announcement (and them doing way fewer direct-to-modern sets) seems to bode well.
@@jaredschroeder7555 fun fact about my PFP: I haven't cast a peer since 2020, in modern I play dimir murktide, dredge, soultrader combo and 5c humans (the last one is a bit of a meme) in legacy 4c miracles control and in pauper jund midrange
I don't think we're done with psychic frog and Tamiyo cause I think that's gonna be the best modern twin deck. They can both play the role Tarmogoyf played in tarmotwin as cheap creatures that can threaten to win the game on their own while you're worried about the potential combo. The fact that they can both be sacrificed to Flare of Denial makes that plan even better.
@@briandixon9140 I suspect losing Frog means Nadu will be less good as a tempo deck and builds will focus more on the Breakfast combo, though don't quote us on that
@celestialTangle either way, i think Trinisphere might be a better replacement for Vexing Bauble right now to slow the game down. But that only will be the case for decks with Sol Lands
This is great news, although I'm not sure enough of Boros Energy has been banned from modern, so I think it will still be at the top. That being said, I've really been enjoying Jeskai Control Twin, so far 3-0 and not dropped a game yet =)
@@ThrabenUniversityI would assume since 2 cards were also a part of alot of other decks it kinda evens out. The real question is probably how it lines up against the new meta. Particularly amulet might go up in popularity by alot idk how that matchup is for Energy (probably ok because of blood moon)
Hi Phil, its noticeable how much love do you pour in the format and in your videos and I gotta say that I really enjoyed your explanations and thoughs, thank you!
9:10 completely agree - we need accountability and aren't getting it. Instead they are repeating the same mistake and will continue to lag what needs to be done.
@@ThrabenUniversity yeah, i know Nadu is the booigeman since it's a literal design mistake, and maybe the data doesn't show the archetype as a problem, but I guess I would have liked to know that mycospawn or kozilek's command were a play pattern they deemed healthy for legacy standards.
I think this is all great news, particularly the unbannings. I haven’t played modern or legacy competitively in years, pretty much only EDH these days. I do still watch content and follow the formats a bit, so looking forward to seeing you play some modern twin and GSZ toolbox stuff in legacy, perhaps Chain of Smog combo 😎
Mox Opal coming off surprised me! I had a few cards that I had thought of to free from the ban list. Green Sun’s Zenith and Splinter Twin were ones that I thought could come off. I thought Faithless Looting would be safe but definitely didn’t think it would be unbanned. Never in my wildest dreams did I think anything to boost artifact decks would come off the ban list.
As much as I am happy to see the one ring banned, I still think it could have been a fun flavor win for it to be restricted. I know there are so many tutors that this probably wouldn't fix the problem, but I dunno, if you are warping your deck so much to have to tutor one ring and only being able to do it once, it seems reasonable.
Thanks for the video, I love watching your analysis videos! One sideboard option against Nadu is Damping Matrix, since it handles the nomads and shuko lines. While hitting quite a lot in general. Obvious downside though: 3 mana. I saw FenrusCloud use this in their Jeskai Control list as a sideboard option.
Troll and Mycospawn are on my watch list for legacy. Remains to be seen, but Mycospawn offends my sensibilities and Troll i think would be a really nuanced surgical ban to slow down reanimator strategies. But its also a ban that would require so much insight and if it didnt do its intent, it would be a ridiculed ban that falls into "died for another sins" category In conversations today Koz Command came up and thats one Im ambivalent towards but understand the logic.
Hey Phil! Solid video, lots of insight and in depth information as usual. Regarding the meta calls for Legacy, what do you think about Harsh Mentor + Suppression Field? Maybe using the power of the Boros Energy core and use these cards as a means to combat the Nadu variants; Mystic Forge + One Ring; Urza's Saga + Lands; Tamiyo clues + planeswalker. It got me thinking about the round from one of your recent videos, where that Suppression Field looked like it put a lot of pressure in your decision making / mana. If i remember correctly, it also used Static Prison, which would fit right in with the Energy core as well (It would open the possibility of Galvanic Discharge as well, depending how deep you want to go). Could be a way to slow those top tier decks down enough / clock them hard enough to make a difference for the cat legion? Would be great to know what you think about this, thank you and keep up the great work!
I like Suppression Field; that totally caught me off guard when I played against it. Generally speaking, I have not been impressed by Harsh Mentor in the same way.
I think a really cynical angle you could take from this legacy article is that all of this was written actually in the summer and Wotc fully knew the problems in Legacy as we know they've been ignoring their legacy in-house advisor for (Reasons?). I think if these Paragraphs were included in the July B&R Announcement it would make a lot more sense contextually
For a while, I've been thinking if someone can put the right cards around 4 maindeck "Supression Field", you could put up some results. Some mono white taxes-esque shell??? Eh? Get super spicy and do something with Serra's Sanctum, perhaps a prison deck with maindeck rest in peace and helm of obedience. There's gotta be something there. I wanted to try and pair the guide of souls + ocelot pride + mh3 ajani trifecta with Suppression Field but i feel like those cards need Goblin Bombardment to really pop off. Idk food for thought
I feel like dress down is going to be a great sweeping answer for Nadu decks, I think it catches most combos right while also being a useful card in some other matchups
as a fellow twin player i thought the day would never come where they finally unban my favorite and only successful deck i played in modern, kept all the cards in a separate binder hoping and waiting would love to see some twin lists and thoughts/builds/tuning as i may have to delve back into modern and resleeve up my deck
THE RING IS DEAD, LONG LIVE THE TWINS Also, as much fun as vexing bauble was for pushing jank through in legacy, I completely agree with their decision, and this is coming from someone who very strongly dislikes control players. You can’t have a format with turn 1 on-the-play wins without free interaction. If you do, it just becomes a game of “Who wins the coinflip?”
my favorite decks in modern were Phoenix and Affinity so the unbans actually make me consider to check out the format again. also I'm so glad I kept my mox opals lol
I think the problem with Nadu isn't a power level thing, it's that the combo is non-deterministic. They can go off with Nadu and wiff five minutes later.
I definitely agree with your concern about WOTC's ban reasonings. It does seem like they put a tight focus on win rates of specific decks instead of generally using problem play patterns to understand why something is unhealthy to the game. It's probably because win rates are easier to get quantitative information on, but time and time again, I have seen no-ban announcements from them citing "healthy balance" in a metagame without giving any consideration to the decks that are in "balance" being unfun/stifling to creative or interesting gameplay. Just because they found the right cards to ban this time through their sheer overwhelming imbalance, it doesn't give hope that they will continue to make decisions that will keep the game fun and dynamic.
the consistently poorly articulated explanations make me wonder if they're not actually written by any of the people who makes the decisions, just an Update Writer Guy who gets a rough draft and then completely rewrites it, synthesizing everything mentioned therein without the context to weigh which parts of it are actually important
lol, i paused the video to make this comment _immediately_ before phil is like "i think probably the reason the wording is so weird is cause the guy who wrote it isn't a legacy guy"
I get why they banned bauble, but I’m sad to see protection for fair decks go. I really liked how the body was designed: 1-mana saccable to cycle through it. I thought it would enable a lot more “fair” decks that have been hated out or lose to broken combo. Maybe maverick could rise above tier 3 or some thing. If they could make a version of this that could help fair decks without also enabling broken combo, that would be such a dream. I would think that the best way to do that is to layer multiple hate functions onto it. Add vexing bauble’s text plus the first text of damping sphere, for example. Something that’s just enough to give a fair deck some time to play its game plan before the unfair deck finds its sideboard answer to this hatepiece.
I think in order to promote "fair" decks against combo, it needs to not be a 1-mana artifact. A monocolored (or perhaps hybrid) creature would probably be best; something slightly better than Lavinia, Azorius Renegade.
It's also symmetrical, meaning it shuts off One Ring, Broadside Bombardiers, Chrome Mox, etc. Is that downside worth it? Maybe. I'm just thinking "out loud". Still think it's probably worth trying in Ancient Tomb or Planar Nexus decks.
I know its a little late to the party but assuming it doesn't step all over your own strategy, Damping Matrix is probably the best card to deal with Shuko and Nomads simultaneously.
I like the idea, and I think it's worth a shot. I have concerns, though. It's three mana, which probably means it's too slow for decks not running Ancient Tomb or Planar Nexus. It's also symmetrical, meaning it shuts off your own Chrome Mox, One Ring, and Broadside Bombardiers, among other cards. Is that downside worth it? Maybe. I'm just theorizing at this point.
I think hating on UWx miracles effectively was about the time we lost control as a pillar of the format. Since then it has existed but not nearly as strongly or with many less control finishes #unbantop
I think we've have plenty of times where Uro/Beans/Forth Eorlingas have made viable control decks just in recent memory. Miracles was just a deck that existed in an era that wotc didn't really ban things in Legacy, hence it got away with its bs for years.
@ThrabenUniversity I have to agree on that. The Beans shells still felt like a midrange-control style deck to me. And I don't think Forth ever really has had the power that Miracles did. But I may also have some very rose colored lens back to when resolving 4 CMC planeswalkers meant slowly winning a game
@ThrabenUniversity I do think your spot on in the format though right now. It's been a strange ride the last few years. Playing against Nadu really feels like eggs or solidarity levels of "tell me when I'm dead please"
In preparation for the ring ban I had been working on an Esper combo list. It was running 4 preordain that instantly got flipped into 4 looting. The slightly worse mana is worth it. Looting felt just as busted, now, as it did years ago, if not more.
WotC really looked back at how miserable prime Wild Mongrel was to play against, slapped an ophidian effect on it and gave it the ability to give itself evasion and said "good enough....wait this is a problem"
Faithless Looting scares me. Even before Hogaak, decks were running nine sideboard cards that could serve as graveyard hate, and that's not healthy. GSZ is probably fine. If Amulet Titan becomes dominant, then the problem is likely something else in the deck. Otherwise, fully agree with you, Phil. Great video as usual.
I'm skeptical. They can float their mana in response to the Conundrum trigger, and they normally all present lethal (or at least a lethal summoning sick board state) on their combo turn, in which case the lands going to hand don't matter. In addition, the Bant Nadu decks still get the Nantuko trigger. I could be wrong (after all, it pitches to FoW 😂), but I'm not registering that card until I see someone else use it successfully.
@natejablonski my thoughts were in the points in which the combo phizles, they are up cards and lands, it can kinda even out the field somewhat. Plus how many punts are people gonna have with fetches
@@daqueen1312 I think it's only worth it if they completely fizzle, which I don't think is common enough, but I could be wrong. Forgot about the fetchland situation, though, so that might be something
@@natejablonski I think another underrated feature is the amount of actions increase meaning the nadu player more likely to timeout. Maybe some UW enchantress control lmao
If the rise of Nadu is about to happen, maybe a harder control deck that can utilise Supreme Verdict or Wrath of the Skies might become playable, which should at least deal with the elves version
Hasn't the package of reanimate+entomb+2 fatties been available in the format forever without causing problems? What makes it that dangerous for the format health now (psychic frog being absent)?
People figured out that doing that WITH a fair backup plan in the maindeck is a formula for success. Whereas previously the decks were closer to all-in on Reanimator, meaning that targeted sb hate hit them much harder.
I respect that Legacy didn't get as many bans as Modern. Legacy, while fast, has a much healthier metagame and diversity than Modern which had 60% boros energy shares. Modern saw the strongest decks get banned out for a long period of time only for them to be replaced with Modern horizon cards that just had no rivals without the older powerful cards like Opal, Looting, and Twin. I am worried this banning/unbanning of Twin in Modern won't actually do anything similar to Jace the Mind Sculptor's unbanning.
What about the troll? Don't you think that UB reanimator swiched from being a pure combo deck into a combo/tempo deck with the inclusions of Grief and Troll of Khazad-dum and started dominating the format? If UB reanimator will still be a problem in the new meta, then wouldn't it be a better choice to ban the troll rather than banning entomb or reanimate, so we don't risk pushing reanimator out of the top tier meta?
Concerning the Modern concern on sideboards, even if I don't play Modern and just Legacy, that state of a format is my favourite. If there is no "deck to aim at", some fringe deck can now shine when they don't accidentally get sniped by some hate against a predominant deck that also WRECKS them (for example, some decks that use the graveyard just get no-games because a few of the decks-to-beat are graveyard-orientated decks and everyone need to have more graveyard hate than usual). The overall variety of decks increase, but it obviously comes at the "cost" of a more "stable" meta, but a stable meta is stale IMO... I like things to be in flux, not just wait until the next ban round...
I like this changes i was hoping little bit Nadu get also banned but good changes both in legacy and modern only vexing bauble i am little bit suprised..but good changes in general .
Overall good for modern, very good for modern in fact. I'm more scared of opal than looting, but i would not be surprised if looting gets rebanned if things go sideways and 5 graveyard/ unfair decks are tops in modern. Legacy i feel is still going to be ill. it's kind of baffling that they're just letting Nadu sit there in the format, and not just kill it because of the rancid play patterns it creates. I would have also looked at Troll from reanimator because it does so much lifting of that deck to have it be in the spot where it can play 14 lands, and still play a playset of wastelands while not being soft to blood moon, and a threat that can just be good enough. The Pioneer ban also makes sense. it's more of an environmental ban, and i play a lot of pioneer. there have been a non-zero amount of times where i'll be playing a jegantha deck, and my opponent, and the 2 matches on either side of me, as also playing Jegantha. It's more ubiquitous in the format. It also makes some decks worse. Rakdos transmogrify for example had the backup plan of buying, casting jegantha to cast an atraxa if you ever drew one. Aggro decks no longer have the flood insurance of this dumb 5/5 elk if you're flooding that can win the game. It will open up deckbuilding again. It wasn't oppressive, but it's a positive change.
They talk about Reanimator and Dimir Tempo rather than talking about Psychic Frog because if they talk about Psychic Frog they get too close to acknowledging that they are deliberately printing overpowered cards into Horizons sets to sell a premium product. They frequently push the cards too far and they need a ban.
Wrath of the skies decks could be the nighmare of every nadu variant. Maybe Pest control. Cursed totem does nothing against shuko. The one is Danping Matrix, but its mana cost is horrible. And green has the best artifact removal
Uhhhhh... Hrmmmm.... Peace Talks?? IDK if it's spicy enough as a 2 mana sorcery but it's definitely a card that does something against multiple decks to buy you a turn.
It's certainly spicy enough. I like it. It's symmetrical, but I can see a combo deck not caring or this being cast from a control deck's Teferi, Time Raveler +1.
The very first time I saw how Psychic Frog actually plays on the table my thought was "this is too powerful, the play pattern is horrible, even worse when both players have one. It's getting banned"
Harsh mentor is a good red card against nadu. Smoke bomb can save you a turn but three is expensive. Damping sphere is pretty good to slow down nadu. Solitude is great.
I like the idea, and I think it's worth a shot. I have concerns, though. It's three mana, which probably means it's too slow for decks not running Ancient Tomb or Planar Nexus. It's also symmetrical, meaning it shuts off your own Chrome Mox, One Ring, and Broadside Bombardiers, among other cards. Is that downside worth it? Maybe. I'm just theorizing at this point.
Would have been the perfect opportunity to also unban Jitte. There is no reason for it to be banned. At least it looks like hardened scales is back on the menu. Maybe Modern is a playable format again.
I'm far from an expert, but I think keeping Frog for this long was actually good for the Meta, or else it would have likely been ran over by unchecked Vexing Bauble/ Mystic Forge Decks.
The one ring, more like the none ring
I see what you did there...
None ring with left grief
More like the gone ring
and so the ring is cast into the fires of EDH never to return!
Breh. Well done.
While I don't necessarily think it's the best answer, Harsh Mentor was always a hilarious answer to Nadu.
I play it in 7 point highlander in my RB deck cause I have 3 local Nadu players
Lantern will light the way. Show us all those smiling faces.
Could bray wyatt step forward please?
(i know he's dead, still)
9:15 So thankful you made the dreadhorde comparison. Much appreciate the whole segment
Faithless Looting is a bit scary but I cannot wait to see what happens now.
Agreed. This is very exciting, which is what I want to see from a B&R update.
I wouldn't be surprised if they give it Golgari Grave Troll treatment and ban it again.
I’m taking the under on Looting and Opal still being legal in 12 months.
I'm definitely interested in seeing how it plays out. Tamiyo can flip T2, Hollow One, Phoenix, Goryo's, etc.
I admit they announced faithless looting was unbanned my first thought was 'how in the world was faithless ever banned', but on reflection about how much the graveyard is the hand 2.0 in modern, it makes more sense. Still feels like the kind of card that should be there, broken, in the broken format.
Frodo certainly took his time.
Thank you for bringing up the "core identity" element. I have no problem with cards like Dark Confidant getting power crept out of the format; I do, however, have a problem with format-defining *archetypes* like Jund, GDS, and Zoo becoming nearly unplayable. Thankfully, this ban announcement (and them doing way fewer direct-to-modern sets) seems to bode well.
Dredge nation we are so back
I found the person who is up to no good!
it feels good
@@doomkingraye7692 lol, pfp checks out. Combo gaming.
Though hard agree
@@jaredschroeder7555 fun fact about my PFP: I haven't cast a peer since 2020, in modern I play dimir murktide, dredge, soultrader combo and 5c humans (the last one is a bit of a meme) in legacy 4c miracles control and in pauper jund midrange
Don't leave the house without graveyard hate, folks
I don't think we're done with psychic frog and Tamiyo cause I think that's gonna be the best modern twin deck. They can both play the role Tarmogoyf played in tarmotwin as cheap creatures that can threaten to win the game on their own while you're worried about the potential combo. The fact that they can both be sacrificed to Flare of Denial makes that plan even better.
Grixis Twin you say... the same role had occurred to me, but I'm not in touch enough with Modern to brew it.
@@ThrabenUniversity I stopped playing modern when horizons created pseudo-rotation but I'm tempted to start brewing again...
tamiyo enables flare of denial as well
@@lemoncobra2563 they said that in the comment
Great 3 and a half months of us suffering Eldrazi and Nadu decks
How Nadu and Kozilek's command made it through is beyond me
Kozilek's command: We banned Vexing Bauble.
Nadu: ... We banned Psychic Frog. That's the one you wanted banned, right?
Only 2 bans was surprising for Legacy. I hate to see Bauble go, but I am surprised they didn't hit Nadu.
I'm not *surprised,* as wotc has historically been very conservative on addressing cards in Legacy, but I do wish it had gone.
@ThrabenUniversity true. But Nadu's play pattern is so bad for the game. And they admitted it wasn't tested in the form it was printed.
@@briandixon9140 I suspect losing Frog means Nadu will be less good as a tempo deck and builds will focus more on the Breakfast combo, though don't quote us on that
@celestialTangle either way, i think Trinisphere might be a better replacement for Vexing Bauble right now to slow the game down. But that only will be the case for decks with Sol Lands
This is great news, although I'm not sure enough of Boros Energy has been banned from modern, so I think it will still be at the top. That being said, I've really been enjoying Jeskai Control Twin, so far 3-0 and not dropped a game yet =)
Hitting three cards from it should be putting it in check, right?
@@ThrabenUniversityI would assume since 2 cards were also a part of alot of other decks it kinda evens out. The real question is probably how it lines up against the new meta. Particularly amulet might go up in popularity by alot idk how that matchup is for Energy (probably ok because of blood moon)
Hi Phil, its noticeable how much love do you pour in the format and in your videos and I gotta say that I really enjoyed your explanations and thoughs, thank you!
9:10 completely agree - we need accountability and aren't getting it. Instead they are repeating the same mistake and will continue to lag what needs to be done.
dredge nation how we feeling in modern? I just added back my 4x lootings
Really enjoyed this video, incredibly excited by the announcement, especially the unbans in modern. Thanks for all the great content!
crazy that eldrazi isn't even mentioned in the legacy bnr announcement
They have a limited amount of space, so I get it, but I see your point.
@@ThrabenUniversity yeah, i know Nadu is the booigeman since it's a literal design mistake, and maybe the data doesn't show the archetype as a problem, but I guess I would have liked to know that mycospawn or kozilek's command were a play pattern they deemed healthy for legacy standards.
I think this is all great news, particularly the unbannings. I haven’t played modern or legacy competitively in years, pretty much only EDH these days. I do still watch content and follow the formats a bit, so looking forward to seeing you play some modern twin and GSZ toolbox stuff in legacy, perhaps Chain of Smog combo 😎
Mox Opal coming off surprised me! I had a few cards that I had thought of to free from the ban list. Green Sun’s Zenith and Splinter Twin were ones that I thought could come off. I thought Faithless Looting would be safe but definitely didn’t think it would be unbanned. Never in my wildest dreams did I think anything to boost artifact decks would come off the ban list.
As much as I am happy to see the one ring banned, I still think it could have been a fun flavor win for it to be restricted. I know there are so many tutors that this probably wouldn't fix the problem, but I dunno, if you are warping your deck so much to have to tutor one ring and only being able to do it once, it seems reasonable.
"Lightning Bushes" - Looks like your mashed together Lightning Bolt and Fatal Push
Great video, thanks.
Damping Matrix to answer Shuko and Nomads?
Thanks for the video, I love watching your analysis videos! One sideboard option against Nadu is Damping Matrix, since it handles the nomads and shuko lines. While hitting quite a lot in general. Obvious downside though: 3 mana. I saw FenrusCloud use this in their Jeskai Control list as a sideboard option.
oh oh, time to splin some twins again!
Oh yeah!
Play with the twins ;).
Pls don't ban my Nadu Elves. I finally found a home again after Orcish Bowmasters invalidated my deck :'(
You get three months lol. Enjoy them to the fullest!
For real bro I feel you
Not a fan of cradle control?
@@Beghty27 Nadu Elves feels closer to OG Elves.. Cradle control feels more like D&T IMO..
I like your longform thoughts videos. I don't play legacy and only follow it through your videos. So I have nothing to add to your thoughts.
Troll and Mycospawn are on my watch list for legacy. Remains to be seen, but Mycospawn offends my sensibilities and Troll i think would be a really nuanced surgical ban to slow down reanimator strategies. But its also a ban that would require so much insight and if it didnt do its intent, it would be a ridiculed ban that falls into "died for another sins" category
In conversations today Koz Command came up and thats one Im ambivalent towards but understand the logic.
Hey Phil! Solid video, lots of insight and in depth information as usual. Regarding the meta calls for Legacy, what do you think about Harsh Mentor + Suppression Field? Maybe using the power of the Boros Energy core and use these cards as a means to combat the Nadu variants; Mystic Forge + One Ring; Urza's Saga + Lands; Tamiyo clues + planeswalker.
It got me thinking about the round from one of your recent videos, where that Suppression Field looked like it put a lot of pressure in your decision making / mana. If i remember correctly, it also used Static Prison, which would fit right in with the Energy core as well (It would open the possibility of Galvanic Discharge as well, depending how deep you want to go). Could be a way to slow those top tier decks down enough / clock them hard enough to make a difference for the cat legion?
Would be great to know what you think about this, thank you and keep up the great work!
I like Suppression Field; that totally caught me off guard when I played against it. Generally speaking, I have not been impressed by Harsh Mentor in the same way.
I personally enjoyed the line "I worte this note, in my notes, and I thought that was worth noting."
I think a really cynical angle you could take from this legacy article is that all of this was written actually in the summer and Wotc fully knew the problems in Legacy as we know they've been ignoring their legacy in-house advisor for (Reasons?). I think if these Paragraphs were included in the July B&R Announcement it would make a lot more sense contextually
For a while, I've been thinking if someone can put the right cards around 4 maindeck "Supression Field", you could put up some results. Some mono white taxes-esque shell??? Eh? Get super spicy and do something with Serra's Sanctum, perhaps a prison deck with maindeck rest in peace and helm of obedience. There's gotta be something there. I wanted to try and pair the guide of souls + ocelot pride + mh3 ajani trifecta with Suppression Field but i feel like those cards need Goblin Bombardment to really pop off.
Idk food for thought
So you're saying it is time for Soldier Stompy?
I feel like dress down is going to be a great sweeping answer for Nadu decks, I think it catches most combos right while also being a useful card in some other matchups
Looks like we are in for another Eldrazi winter with an added Nadu winter.
I think I read about people playing harsh mentor as anti nadu tech
Congrats on getting twin unbanned!
lol at “show you work”, WOTC. Probably would have gotten a c+ with this homework.
as a fellow twin player i thought the day would never come where they finally unban my favorite and only successful deck i played in modern, kept all the cards in a separate binder hoping and waiting would love to see some twin lists and thoughts/builds/tuning as i may have to delve back into modern and resleeve up my deck
THE RING IS DEAD, LONG LIVE THE TWINS
Also, as much fun as vexing bauble was for pushing jank through in legacy, I completely agree with their decision, and this is coming from someone who very strongly dislikes control players. You can’t have a format with turn 1 on-the-play wins without free interaction. If you do, it just becomes a game of “Who wins the coinflip?”
Suffering is back on the menu lads
Opal is legal in Lantern again
my favorite decks in modern were Phoenix and Affinity so the unbans actually make me consider to check out the format again. also I'm so glad I kept my mox opals lol
I think the problem with Nadu isn't a power level thing, it's that the combo is non-deterministic. They can go off with Nadu and wiff five minutes later.
good assessment. never understood why abrupt decay didn't get used to kill frogs
People didn't want to play black and green when you can play dimir.
I definitely agree with your concern about WOTC's ban reasonings. It does seem like they put a tight focus on win rates of specific decks instead of generally using problem play patterns to understand why something is unhealthy to the game. It's probably because win rates are easier to get quantitative information on, but time and time again, I have seen no-ban announcements from them citing "healthy balance" in a metagame without giving any consideration to the decks that are in "balance" being unfun/stifling to creative or interesting gameplay. Just because they found the right cards to ban this time through their sheer overwhelming imbalance, it doesn't give hope that they will continue to make decisions that will keep the game fun and dynamic.
if they at least told us they're looking into fleshraker and/or mycospawn it would've been nice.
That wasnt a meme that was brian vs second sunrise. He wrote f6 on a piece of paper
the consistently poorly articulated explanations make me wonder if they're not actually written by any of the people who makes the decisions, just an Update Writer Guy who gets a rough draft and then completely rewrites it, synthesizing everything mentioned therein without the context to weigh which parts of it are actually important
lol, i paused the video to make this comment _immediately_ before phil is like "i think probably the reason the wording is so weird is cause the guy who wrote it isn't a legacy guy"
Well, great minds think alike...
Alright, hear me out...Horobi, Death's wail against Nadu for black decks. Is it bad? Yes. But I love Horobi.
I get why they banned bauble, but I’m sad to see protection for fair decks go. I really liked how the body was designed: 1-mana saccable to cycle through it.
I thought it would enable a lot more “fair” decks that have been hated out or lose to broken combo. Maybe maverick could rise above tier 3 or some thing.
If they could make a version of this that could help fair decks without also enabling broken combo, that would be such a dream. I would think that the best way to do that is to layer multiple hate functions onto it. Add vexing bauble’s text plus the first text of damping sphere, for example. Something that’s just enough to give a fair deck some time to play its game plan before the unfair deck finds its sideboard answer to this hatepiece.
I think in order to promote "fair" decks against combo, it needs to not be a 1-mana artifact. A monocolored (or perhaps hybrid) creature would probably be best; something slightly better than Lavinia, Azorius Renegade.
For Nadu: maybe Damping Matrix?... Stops nomad's and shuko.... The only real problem.... 3 mana spell 😅
It's also symmetrical, meaning it shuts off One Ring, Broadside Bombardiers, Chrome Mox, etc. Is that downside worth it? Maybe. I'm just thinking "out loud". Still think it's probably worth trying in Ancient Tomb or Planar Nexus decks.
I know its a little late to the party but assuming it doesn't step all over your own strategy, Damping Matrix is probably the best card to deal with Shuko and Nomads simultaneously.
46:03 - I think Looting got banned for Arclight Phoenix reasons.
And bridge from below was the hogaak scapegoat I think?
@ bridge and altar of dementia, I think?
Lets go been working on a Mardu reaninimator deck and now I just get to be rakdos delirum reanimter in modern. This ban and unban list us sick
How about the bb2 creature that destroys creatures when they get targeted to fight Nadu? If only it weren't 4 mana
Damping matrix shuts off activated abilities of both artifacts and creatures, albeit not mana abilities
I like the idea, and I think it's worth a shot. I have concerns, though.
It's three mana, which probably means it's too slow for decks not running Ancient Tomb or Planar Nexus.
It's also symmetrical, meaning it shuts off your own Chrome Mox, One Ring, and Broadside Bombardiers, among other cards. Is that downside worth it? Maybe. I'm just theorizing at this point.
I think hating on UWx miracles effectively was about the time we lost control as a pillar of the format. Since then it has existed but not nearly as strongly or with many less control finishes #unbantop
I think we've have plenty of times where Uro/Beans/Forth Eorlingas have made viable control decks just in recent memory. Miracles was just a deck that existed in an era that wotc didn't really ban things in Legacy, hence it got away with its bs for years.
@ThrabenUniversity I have to agree on that. The Beans shells still felt like a midrange-control style deck to me. And I don't think Forth ever really has had the power that Miracles did. But I may also have some very rose colored lens back to when resolving 4 CMC planeswalkers meant slowly winning a game
@ThrabenUniversity I do think your spot on in the format though right now. It's been a strange ride the last few years. Playing against Nadu really feels like eggs or solidarity levels of "tell me when I'm dead please"
You want to give mystic forge top??
@@will11233 yes. Mono hate like null rod or Stony silence it. It's the inability to interact we should fear
I never sold or traded the pieces of pre-ban Archlight Phoenix. Might not be tier one, but, and i cannot stress this enough, CAW!
In preparation for the ring ban I had been working on an Esper combo list. It was running 4 preordain that instantly got flipped into 4 looting. The slightly worse mana is worth it. Looting felt just as busted, now, as it did years ago, if not more.
I kinda didn't think there'd ever be unbans in Modern for years and years after the Mox Opal and Gaak eras
WotC really looked back at how miserable prime Wild Mongrel was to play against, slapped an ophidian effect on it and gave it the ability to give itself evasion and said "good enough....wait this is a problem"
I have two control decks in paper Beans control and jeaski control we will see how I have to pivot with side boards etc
Faithless Looting scares me. Even before Hogaak, decks were running nine sideboard cards that could serve as graveyard hate, and that's not healthy.
GSZ is probably fine. If Amulet Titan becomes dominant, then the problem is likely something else in the deck.
Otherwise, fully agree with you, Phil. Great video as usual.
And I hope to see elves in the metagame with Grenn Sun's Zenith unbanned
I get the mox back!? I know 2012 era Affinty is long dead, but a man can dream.
Kappa cannoneer, thought monitor, and urza’s saga could still make it relevant while retaining its old core of vomiting hands on turns 1-2.
Getting the Supertramp - Breakfast in America vinyl out and playing it all day
Side board against Nadu with Dense Foliage? It could work... except it's 3 mana and might be messing with the rest of your deck or interaction.
Love these videos
Are you expecting to see defense grid replace bauble 1:1 in mystic forge decks?
You answered my question 5 minutes farther into the video. :)
In regards to nadu maybe the flute, you can play it before or while a card is on the stack.
Is confounding conundrum tech? Draw a card and make them pickup lands if they try to nadu off?
I'm skeptical. They can float their mana in response to the Conundrum trigger, and they normally all present lethal (or at least a lethal summoning sick board state) on their combo turn, in which case the lands going to hand don't matter. In addition, the Bant Nadu decks still get the Nantuko trigger.
I could be wrong (after all, it pitches to FoW 😂), but I'm not registering that card until I see someone else use it successfully.
@natejablonski my thoughts were in the points in which the combo phizles, they are up cards and lands, it can kinda even out the field somewhat. Plus how many punts are people gonna have with fetches
@@daqueen1312 I think it's only worth it if they completely fizzle, which I don't think is common enough, but I could be wrong. Forgot about the fetchland situation, though, so that might be something
@@natejablonski I think another underrated feature is the amount of actions increase meaning the nadu player more likely to timeout. Maybe some UW enchantress control lmao
If the rise of Nadu is about to happen, maybe a harder control deck that can utilise Supreme Verdict or Wrath of the Skies might become playable, which should at least deal with the elves version
Thanks for getting the video out so fast.
Whyyyy would they unban opal without reprinting it in mh3. Isn’t that like a $200 card?
2025 chase card maybe?
why would they print opal in MH3 when it wasn't a legal card in modern at the time (also it's "only" ~100$ atm)
Hasn't the package of reanimate+entomb+2 fatties been available in the format forever without causing problems? What makes it that dangerous for the format health now (psychic frog being absent)?
People figured out that doing that WITH a fair backup plan in the maindeck is a formula for success. Whereas previously the decks were closer to all-in on Reanimator, meaning that targeted sb hate hit them much harder.
I respect that Legacy didn't get as many bans as Modern. Legacy, while fast, has a much healthier metagame and diversity than Modern which had 60% boros energy shares. Modern saw the strongest decks get banned out for a long period of time only for them to be replaced with Modern horizon cards that just had no rivals without the older powerful cards like Opal, Looting, and Twin. I am worried this banning/unbanning of Twin in Modern won't actually do anything similar to Jace the Mind Sculptor's unbanning.
What about the troll?
Don't you think that UB reanimator swiched from being a pure combo deck into a combo/tempo deck with the inclusions of Grief and Troll of Khazad-dum and started dominating the format?
If UB reanimator will still be a problem in the new meta, then wouldn't it be a better choice to ban the troll rather than banning entomb or reanimate, so we don't risk pushing reanimator out of the top tier meta?
Concerning the Modern concern on sideboards, even if I don't play Modern and just Legacy, that state of a format is my favourite. If there is no "deck to aim at", some fringe deck can now shine when they don't accidentally get sniped by some hate against a predominant deck that also WRECKS them (for example, some decks that use the graveyard just get no-games because a few of the decks-to-beat are graveyard-orientated decks and everyone need to have more graveyard hate than usual).
The overall variety of decks increase, but it obviously comes at the "cost" of a more "stable" meta, but a stable meta is stale IMO... I like things to be in flux, not just wait until the next ban round...
mengu video: 7 minutes, released 10 minutes after banlist drops
thrabenu video: 54 minutes, released 4 hours after banlist drops
Gotta write the notes! That takes time!
0:00 Deck Tech
Why nobody plays Suppression Field vs Nadu?
It's probably too narrow. It also hurts your own fetch lands. So only decks without them would consider it.
Mishra's Workshop into Damping Matrix.
I like this changes i was hoping little bit Nadu get also banned but good changes both in legacy and modern only vexing bauble i am little bit suprised..but good changes in general .
Damping Matrix against Nadu. Yes, it´s 3 mana, but it completely shuts down everything they have to combo off.
Overall good for modern, very good for modern in fact.
I'm more scared of opal than looting, but i would not be surprised if looting gets rebanned if things go sideways and 5 graveyard/ unfair decks are tops in modern.
Legacy i feel is still going to be ill. it's kind of baffling that they're just letting Nadu sit there in the format, and not just kill it because of the rancid play patterns it creates. I would have also looked at Troll from reanimator because it does so much lifting of that deck to have it be in the spot where it can play 14 lands, and still play a playset of wastelands while not being soft to blood moon, and a threat that can just be good enough.
The Pioneer ban also makes sense. it's more of an environmental ban, and i play a lot of pioneer. there have been a non-zero amount of times where i'll be playing a jegantha deck, and my opponent, and the 2 matches on either side of me, as also playing Jegantha. It's more ubiquitous in the format. It also makes some decks worse. Rakdos transmogrify for example had the backup plan of buying, casting jegantha to cast an atraxa if you ever drew one. Aggro decks no longer have the flood insurance of this dumb 5/5 elk if you're flooding that can win the game. It will open up deckbuilding again. It wasn't oppressive, but it's a positive change.
I feel a lot more confident playing Manaless Dredge in Legacy now
They talk about Reanimator and Dimir Tempo rather than talking about Psychic Frog because if they talk about Psychic Frog they get too close to acknowledging that they are deliberately printing overpowered cards into Horizons sets to sell a premium product. They frequently push the cards too far and they need a ban.
Wrath of the skies decks could be the nighmare of every nadu variant. Maybe Pest control. Cursed totem does nothing against shuko. The one is Danping Matrix, but its mana cost is horrible. And green has the best artifact removal
Thank you 🎉
Suppression Field is probably the best anti Nadu card
Don't make me sleeve up Soldier Stompy...
Uhhhhh...
Hrmmmm....
Peace Talks??
IDK if it's spicy enough as a 2 mana sorcery but it's definitely a card that does something against multiple decks to buy you a turn.
It's certainly spicy enough. I like it. It's symmetrical, but I can see a combo deck not caring or this being cast from a control deck's Teferi, Time Raveler +1.
The very first time I saw how Psychic Frog actually plays on the table my thought was "this is too powerful, the play pattern is horrible, even worse when both players have one. It's getting banned"
Good tech against nadu is supression field
Harsh mentor is a good red card against nadu. Smoke bomb can save you a turn but three is expensive. Damping sphere is pretty good to slow down nadu. Solitude is great.
After the Bans: Welcome to a Nadu World and I Bowmaster your Bowmaster, and Reanimator is still the deck to BEAT :(
What about Damping Matrix against Nadu decks?
I like the idea, and I think it's worth a shot. I have concerns, though.
It's three mana, which probably means it's too slow for decks not running Ancient Tomb or Planar Nexus.
It's also symmetrical, meaning it shuts off your own Chrome Mox, One Ring, and Broadside Bombardiers, among other cards. Is that downside worth it? Maybe. I'm just theorizing at this point.
Hey y’all I’m a degen cloudpost player but do these bans not just make nadu the best thing to be doing in the format
Would have been the perfect opportunity to also unban Jitte. There is no reason for it to be banned.
At least it looks like hardened scales is back on the menu. Maybe Modern is a playable format again.
I'm far from an expert, but I think keeping Frog for this long was actually good for the Meta, or else it would have likely been ran over by unchecked Vexing Bauble/ Mystic Forge Decks.
I hope that we will not see a Nadu Winter untill the next B&R announcement é_è
Hot tech for Nadu decks: Suppression Field
This is the best banlist update of all time. Legacy could maybe have been better but they are absolutely cooking with Modern.