My main question regarding this is whether the participants in the study are beginners or trained individuals. As a beginner, I remember being able to train every week and feeling fine. However, the more advanced I became and the heavier the weights got, the more I needed to focus on fatigue management.
@@JJ_Beats._. it certainly helps but from personal experience after 17 years of training those joints get beat up anyway and deloads are good precautionary tool for long game (I want to do this in next 30-40-50 years).
It might be anecdotal but deloading completely revolutionized my training. I was able to train from 20-30 making gains without a scheduled deloads. However I eventually plateaued and was running into lagging injuries. Following Dr Mikes deload advice has allowed me to continue to make gains into my mid 30s. Deloading deloads more that just physical stress it also helps with the psychological strain of having to go hard in the gym every single session
You may not understand the principles of over stimulating the muscle to such degree to barely being able to recover, but still recovered. Maximum recoverable volume is the term, and despite having great M.R.V. Your body, joints tendons ligaments, mental and physiological conditions will start to diminish despite your muscles still recovering. Fatigue is fatigue, and there are a plethora of types
I’ve found that deloads are an extreme solution for the problem of training and recovery balance. For me, i see it as a matter of when to put the foot on the gas and when to ease it up a bit. If I need to ease up too often then it’s a sign of doing too much and being too optimistic which can happen for me. Generally speaking though I get around 8-15 direct sets per body part per week at around 0-2RIR. Taking the foot off the gas I do around 70% of my workouts by removing a set or two for some exercises, sometimes decreasing RIR to 1-3 if needed. Not a huge difference just enough to give me some wiggle room so that I can ease back into it. I do this maybe every 5-8 weeks or so. Sometimes I’ll only do it for either the lower or upper body if the other half is feeling fine. I don’t jump at the opportunity to do this either. Sometimes people have told me I need a deload cos I’m feeling tired and unmotivated to train, but then a week or two later it comes back and I’m fine without ever needing to drop the training volume
I agree with that. Often, a deload isn't required just because you had a bad session or two or felt unmotivated for a few days. Those things happen, and they do pass! -Milo
I like your more empirical approach. Lots of folks in the "evidence-based fitness" community seem to lean much harder into rationalism rather than empiricism when making their recommendations. Where it sometimes feels like they're disregarding data points when it doesn't suit their preconceived notions. You on the other hand make it your job to reference empirical data. Thank you!
@@DrMiloWolf Yes, but there are lots of data points. If you restrict yourself only to data coming out of RCTs you are severely limiting your oversight of reality. Not saying you do that. So called empiricism has in some circles, particularly medical science devolved into blind worship of 'gold standard' RCTs... with these ''gold standard' trials often suffering from poor design, execution and interpretation. Cheers.
Just blasted through a bunch of your videos. Excellent content. Love how you go through the studies succinctly and provide nuanced practical recommendations.
Fascinating. It seems to me that consistency wins, always. AND, learning how to listen to your body so you can learn how to balance adaptation and recovery.
I've found personally that if I'm doing say a 4 day per week upper lower split with realtively low volumes but training mostly to momentary muscular failure, that I can go a couple months without hittting plateaus from fatigue. And when I deload, I have to still do one upper and one lower at the same intensity (even if i still drop a set to reduce volume on some exercises). If I do nothing for even 5-7 days my CNS has detrained enough that I'll lose 2-3 reps on most exercises. Im definitely for doing extended deloads/minimalist maintenance phases while life demands my full attention (like when new babies come along haha). I always have good gains after due to resensitization of pathways. Also thank you Milo for the advise on lengthened partials. I've been getting the best gains of my life with them. They have way better SFRs compared to standard counterparts. That compared with going to momentary failure (vs 2-3 RIR which may have really been 5 RIR) has really increased the intensity of my workouts and hence stimulus and hypertrophy even at lower volumes.
Eyyyy! Stoked to hear the lengthened work has been helping! And yeah - I think that's where deloads or maintenance phases are best used: when life gets in the way of training productively! -Milo
Another banger. Thank you! For deloads I’ve experimented with an approach Dr. Helms talks about. He essentially keeps his RIR/training the same but skips half of his week thereby reducing his volume by half roughly. I also don’t have to go to the gym as often that week. It’s easier mentally for me to hit 2-3 hard sessions then 5 sessions where I go “easy”. Also, could one also interpret this study that if you take a full week of with zero training (ex: vacation with family) that you don’t need to worry about anything hypertrophy wise?
Another fire video. I was just watching an old interview with Dr Pac on his research on de loads. I force deloads, as in my last week on my meso I’m pushing past failure. As my 3rd week is failure. So I’m hoping I’m still sore on my deload week just so I can do half volume / load. I look at my deload week as a reward that I can just relax a little in the gym and get to go home early to do normal life stuff instead of doing my 6 days a week 2hr work out and a active rest day, I get to chill for a week.
My main reason I deload is because of the accumulation of fatigue overtime that starts to impede on my sleep. Whenever I extended my training cycle beyond my usual deload time, no matter how much of sleep got, I would always wake up tired and generally be tired throughout the day. Whenever I do deload though, it seemed like my sleep would improve and go back to baseline. But IMO, you probably don’t need to deload week until you start to lose strength on your lifts.
I have a deload this week based on the RP app, in the past, I never did them, but with as hard as I've been going the past 6 weeks, I feel like mentally I can use it. I pushed ridiculously hard the past week and I was looking forward to reducing sets/reps for a moment. Then 4 more weeks and into surgery I go.
The one practical confounder to the study may be only training lower body, and that twice a week, which you hint at in the end of the video. There's already a lot of recovery going on compared to someone who's training 4-6 times a week and of course all body parts. At least for me it's just the cumulative fatigue that comes from the sum total of all the training that makes me feel the need to deload. Though that does beg the question, would doing less each week be a net more if it means you don't need to deload as often, which is something I've wondered about.
They actually also trained upper-body as part of their program - on separate days, unsupervised. So I *think* they were training 4 times a week, quite hard. I definitely think that if you're not training super hard - lack of motivation, consistency or time - you may never benefit from a deload. -Milo
Ah I missed they were training 4x / week then it's totally valid. I guess at the end of the day, it's just another variable to manage, train hard and often, you'll probably need to deload, otherwise maybe not.@@DrMiloWolf
For me personally I found that i need to take a deload after 2-3 months of training for like 2-3 weaks. Not when time comes, but when i feel like it. I dont take break from training, but just train much easier. If i do the same exercise in programm over and over, my joints start to hurt, my results are start decreasing, my will to train (inside of session) is lower. So i take that time and heal up little bit, and then slowly go again. It's also just feels good after psychologically to take little break from the gym.
2 things: 1. we are talking about the deloads yet you keep saying "week off from training". those are not the same things. 2. 9 weeks is fine to check but what about a year or 5 years of training. should we keep smashing our muscles with heavier and heavier weights without rest? i dont think so.
I got a very stressfull job as a nurse, so I accumulate a lot of fatigue with the combination of working shifts up to 12 days in a row and training 4-5x per week. I deload about every 7-8 Weeks, just because of all the fatigue and joint stress. I plan these Deload Weeks cause I use planned Periodization Models for my Workout Plans. I don't think thats nescessary for people with pure office jobs or those that are much younger than I am.
Deload weeks for me are an opportunity to reset the rep count chasing and refocus on form and tempo, which I can lose over weeks of training. There are no negatives to having a de-load week every 6-8 weeks in my experience.
But aren't most people agreed that the point of deloads is to reduce injury risk? We all know that deloads are not there to produce better gains (excepting potentially resens as you mention) - of course you are going to show more progress if you keep training compared to the group that takes a whole week off. Also i would argue if you still feel "fine" after 9 weeks training straight, you are not training hard enough.
I like to deload because it gives me a chance to catch up on life. How about a study with people that have full time jobs, families and other events to attend to while we grind out our workouts.
When I was in my mid 20s, I trained quite a bit. The last year or so, I trained 6 days a week. I didn't even know about deloads. But then, I didn't know much about training. At every session, I picked one exercise to up one step. I was always ready for that. So probably, I just missed some gains due to not progressing as fast as I could? I only trained for about 2,5-3 years though. I stopped because I noticed myself spending too much time in front of the mirror and figured it was was not mentally sustainable.
I wonder how advanced the participants in the study were. I'd guess not many advanced lifters would train this little for 9 weeks. If the lifters trained upper body besides the research training, there would be less control of the overall training load. If advanced lifters only trained the amount stated, it would volume vice be a deload in itself.
Would you say that steroid abuse would make a difference here, as it promotes growth of muscle over growth of cognitive tissue as far as I have understood it.
how does this make sense? you can't just keep progressively overloading into infinity! it doesn't work like that.... your joints and connective tissue don't heal at the same rate, not to mention the systematic fatigue that you've been accumulating which is a real thing, and the psychological drive needed to keep you going back into gym, especially towards the end of your meso where intensity is high, volume is high... a deload just washes away all that.. so how can it be a waste of time?!
You can, though. The rate of progressive overload slows down as you progress. Just to enquire; do you have any citations/evidence supporting the ideas that (1) connective tissue and muscle don't recover at the same rate and (2) that residual fatigue accumulates over time? To my knowledge, recovery timelines from a given session rarely extend past 3-4 days MAX. -Milo
@@DrMiloWolf have another chat with Dr. Mike Israetel, you guys are pals.... For me personally, deloads work, and I will continue to use them as a tool in my arsenal. If I read what you're saying in this video correctly, taking the deloads at the end of your meso won't necessarily harm anything so badly. It feels like a matter of preference. My only issue is, what you're saying could potentially confuse a novice lifter.
I'd rather run the risk of confusing a beginner lifter - a confusion easily cleared by a question I readily respond to - than running the risk of spreading misinformation! -Milo
Great video as always. I always use deloads as a way to mentally reset after 6 weeks of hard training. One week of deloading does a lot to prepare myself for the next 6 weeks. That being said, I wonder, do you know of any literature that actually supports the usage of mesocycles? Or are they just used to specialize in certain muscle groups and for self assessment purposes?
Mesocycles are basically just an organizational term. They're just how we name a period of training lasting 4-8 weeks or so. There's nothing in the literature about them because they're not really a "thing" to begin with. -Milo
It should be longer period of training, I start to feel beat up (previous light wheights feeling heavy, minor aches and pains, weird sleep, etc...) by week 8-9. So, no difference if a stopped at week 4 or 6 at a similar study. And the deload is no more than 10 days, with some training with heavy weights, low volume, less reps etc..
I defy anyone to do 16 weeks of (including variations like pause, bands, blocks, pins etc) 4x week squat+bench and 3x deadlift at (on the lowest end) 80% of your max and, (on the high end) 110% of your max (as in, gaining so much strength that your RPE based work is done consistantly at a higher weight than your previous 1 rep max) and tell me they can keep running that in perpetuity without a week or 2 taking it a bit easier (doing similar reps but halving the weight) and letting joints/connective tissues recover at the end of it.
It seems this was about "weeks off"/"breaks", not about lighter lifting with a week of less volume/intensity. I would always avoid a week off if I can. Rest always made me weaker, but moderate lifting with some less effort but with some descent volume is something different.
If we reverse the view we can clearly say if we are not interested in strength conditioning we can take a week break without too much malus, if we need a break for the high volume AND we work for strength and conditioning we need a deload with some exercise with high relevance to keep the touch on them. Is my view in agreement?
This is why i dont like mike israteals model of doing his blocks of low rpe up to rpe 8-9 or something and deloading. Its leaving gains on the table. Also i think having more rest days is way better than having complete deloads of a week or something, if lets say your back hasnt recovered and you have a back day rest 1 more day until its fresh.
Same here, having done it for years, I've come to the conclusion that adding sets and changing RIR throws too many wrenches into the works.@@mr.stayindoors6974
@gracefool yeah from what i understand, your suppose to notice degradations in performance before you deload not just do it blindly, and i dont think 9 weeks is a good amount of time to go off because there could be more short time advantages to not deloading and long term disadvantages. I still don't think its exactly clear what the answer is yet.
Got a question for you Milo. I was a fan of Dante's DC training and still am I suppose even though I have adapted it a bit for my needs. His approach did include fairly long pushing periods with a week de-loading eventually. But, there was sort of a per exercise de-loading as well during the pushing phase if you stagnated on one lift - basically to switch out that lift with a new one targeting the same muscles starting with slightly lower intensity just from the fact that it being a new lift that cycle. Was that a reasonable approach?
How advanced were these trainees? I hope there are studies that look at longer bouts of uninterrupted training, like say 20 weeks or more, for advanced or intermediates. This is very interesting and indeed goes counter to what I've heard from the industry. I recall a Jeff Nippard video supporting deloads and now I need to see what it was even referencing.
These were untrained. That said, that's both a strength (fatigue is greater in beginners due to a lack of repeated bout effect) and a limitation (not necessarily generalizable to highly trained lifters). Glad you found it interesting, king! -Milo
Very true. I can imagine more advanced trainees benefiting from giving their joints more opportunities to heal from the much higher stresses, but that's pure speculation at this point. Best science based information right here on your channel. Sharing everywhere I can. You deserve all the views.
I'm not sure this study translates to even basic training regimens. Most actual programs have a deload after 6-8 weeks. The 9 weeks in the study is at the top end of most mesocycles where a deload would come afterwards. For the other studies, ive never seen a three-week complete back off incorporated into any program, that just sounds like active detraining. And these studies seemingly take "deloading" to mean no training at all which again most even just decent programs don't have, especially after only 4-6 weeks. Also, hypertrophy and strength gain are not the only factors of a good program. Things like adherence, sustainability, injury prevention, fatigue management are all important things in the real world that these studies dont really capture. Id be interested to see a more realistic study over the period of 6-12 months where one group trains consistently and the other has a one-week deload after 6-8 weeks (with deload meaning keeping the same or similar sets and reps but cutting 1RM% fairly drastically, NOT just not training at all)
could you do a upper-lower desensitization? I noticed it kinda works, I had about a decade of non-stop training, then pause for a year, and first month after returning had the best results ever (probably second best, after newbie phase)
I wonder what the age of the study participants were. I’m 49, roughly 8-11% body fat, been training for 13+ years. I’ve been taking a D load week “when I feel like I need it” about once every few months…..when I start noticing my body letting me know 😅
the only thing that ever made me not want to train is go from 160kg 1rm Deadlift to 210kg when i was 30 and started going to the gym and did 18 heavy sets and 10 moderate weight sets of deadlifts a week for 6 months have never Deadlifted ever since then. this shit fatigued me so much i literally went on 2 week vacation after
interesting studys im curious how much training experiance the participants had? i never was a fan of deloading and i often kinda skipped it or at least shortened it. every now and then i experianced that my body "shut down" and forced me to take a couple of days off. i startet to do deloads preemptively every 4 weeks a 3 day rest. now i use thr RP app andby now did 2 active deloads like the app suggests with very low intensity and volume training and i have to say i like it. you get super hyped to get back to lifting after.
Interesting! I think taking some time off lifting completely usually makes most people less motivated to train (as seen in the Coleman study), but your mileage can definitely vary. Untrained. That can be argued to be a good or a bad thing. Good in that untrained participants experience the most fatigue (the repeated bout effect isn't working its magic yet). Bad in that results may differ somewhat in more trained participants/not generalise to that population. -Milo
@@DrMiloWolf thx for the answer and thx for the "repeated bout effect" never heard about that. going to read about it. do beginners really get more fatigued? sorry when im doubting this (i do not know the research i just know me). when i started i always did 2 sets 12 reps and the 3th set i did AMRep and if i could do more than 12 on the last set i increased weight nexttime. here is the point: AMRep to technical failure. i took quiet a while to gain the ability to maintain technique till the targeted muscle(s) is fried. even today if i try an excercise i never did before it takes a bit till i really start to feel it (or learn proper technique). i feel like being able to deal real damage to a muscle generates more fatigue. maybe i just try to justify my need for deloads because im getting old :D
I usually do 4 weeks of training starting at RIR In Week 1 and ending at RIR 0 at Week 4. Usually after this I have a hard time getting more reps at the same weight why I usually deload. Then next meso, I add weight and try to start 4 reps lower than the weight from the Week before. Would it then make sense to not deload and just start the New meso as described before?
I assume you mean 3RIR in week 1, 0RIR in Week 4. I'd generally advise going from 2-0RIR most of the time, rather than either staying super submaximal for a full week (e.g. 3RIR in Week 1) or super hard (0RIR in Week 4). Check out my training to failure video! But yeah, in general - probably not as much of a need to deload as you may think. -Milo
@@DrMiloWolf Thanks Milo! Makes sense then to go from 2 to 0 RIR over 3 weeks, then add weight and go from 2 to 0 RIR again and then after 3 mesos of this maybe deload going for 4 RIR?
Nah, I'd recommend staying close to 2-0RIR for every exercise every week. You can go a bit easier in the intro week of a block (e.g. 3-1RIR) and a bit harder before a deload (e.g. 1-0RIR) and during a deload (e.g. 4-2RIR), but I wouldn't periodize RIR much. Check out the RIR video! -Milo
Idk if this is considered a deload, but I don’t really decrease intensity, or weight, but I decrease sets. I start off with 3 sets each exercise and climb 1 set each week until I get to 6 sets per exercise then repeat. Seems to help me reduce fatigue and not lose any gains or motivation. When I take a week off, or drop my weight & sets to a minimum I lose momentum. Only been doing it for a few months, but seems to work for me. Anyone have any suggestions or experience with doing something similar?
I mean no offense, but i dont think theres been a study long enough where deloading could take into effect. Like the quads study.... pretty sure deloading is for collective systemic fatgiue and not local fatigue. Not in one camp or the other, but it also depends how physical your job/life is for sure. Again, im not in one or the other. The studies just seemed to lack replicating an actual realistic scenario. I mean, taking 3 weeks off?? Idk man. Its either one extreme or the other. At this point if you feel good dont deload, if you work a manual labor job and start building up too much fatigue take a light week or even a day or two off. A week seems like a lot to me but again i think once you workout for a bit you can tell when your body needs even a slight break.
Deloading makes sense for Weight lifters and power lifters because they could focus on their technique. For body building it's useless. If I feel burned out I take a few days off .
There is a guy from Germany a coach his name is carsten pfützenreuter which create an extreme high rep training style with around 50to 100reps. He himself does it like this 1 set extreme high reps than next exercise next muscle and this about 4 to 5 times per week. But there are some other option. The crazy thing is that a lot of people which some of them are alreafy training for decades and natty ( i was writing with some of them. And ask them specific question to evaluate the chance that this guys telling the truth) gaining muscles with this method. What does you think about this. I domt believe in magic but maybe this is the holy grail? Because there is clearly some evidence due my research that at least some people seems to be gaining better muscle with this specific style
It could be a lot of things. In all likelihood, solid genetics. Doing one hard set of 50-100 reps per session, 4-5 times is a "good enough" approach, but it's not the best. -Milo
Why don’t just use common sense…when u feel beat up, take a ‘deload’. Been doing that for years..Took a few days off then ramp up. Didn’t call it a Deload..
This study really proof nothing. For starters none need to deload after 4 weeks. It’s been said that beginners with 1 year or less experience would probably not need a deload. Systemic fatigue sets in with hi volume of training or time. I have felt systemic fatigue and experience its effects. Like you said light work does not call for reloads.
Were they people who were motivated to train or just a bunch of paid people who liked the D load and didn't want to return to training because they didn't enjoy it to begin with?
My main question regarding this is whether the participants in the study are beginners or trained individuals. As a beginner, I remember being able to train every week and feeling fine. However, the more advanced I became and the heavier the weights got, the more I needed to focus on fatigue management.
Trained!
-Milo
I think the main issue here is the timeframe. The recommendations I have heard for coaches is to fellas every 10-12 weeks.
What about deloading as a tool to reduce overuse and give the joints and connective tissue some extra recovery time ?@@DrMiloWolf
@@iyankov96 not very sciency but personally when my joints are beat up i either switch out exercises,or have a lower volume phase for 3-6 weeks.
@@JJ_Beats._. it certainly helps but from personal experience after 17 years of training those joints get beat up anyway and deloads are good precautionary tool for long game (I want to do this in next 30-40-50 years).
It might be anecdotal but deloading completely revolutionized my training. I was able to train from 20-30 making gains without a scheduled deloads. However I eventually plateaued and was running into lagging injuries. Following Dr Mikes deload advice has allowed me to continue to make gains into my mid 30s. Deloading deloads more that just physical stress it also helps with the psychological strain of having to go hard in the gym every single session
The reason deloading came about was most certainly because people overtrain. If you don't overtrain, deload is bs since you are able to recover
You may not understand the principles of over stimulating the muscle to such degree to barely being able to recover, but still recovered. Maximum recoverable volume is the term, and despite having great M.R.V. Your body, joints tendons ligaments, mental and physiological conditions will start to diminish despite your muscles still recovering. Fatigue is fatigue, and there are a plethora of types
Hope this helped! Maybe… idk but respond I’ll be willing to conversate about what I’ve learned!
I’ve found that deloads are an extreme solution for the problem of training and recovery balance. For me, i see it as a matter of when to put the foot on the gas and when to ease it up a bit. If I need to ease up too often then it’s a sign of doing too much and being too optimistic which can happen for me. Generally speaking though I get around 8-15 direct sets per body part per week at around 0-2RIR. Taking the foot off the gas I do around 70% of my workouts by removing a set or two for some exercises, sometimes decreasing RIR to 1-3 if needed. Not a huge difference just enough to give me some wiggle room so that I can ease back into it. I do this maybe every 5-8 weeks or so. Sometimes I’ll only do it for either the lower or upper body if the other half is feeling fine. I don’t jump at the opportunity to do this either. Sometimes people have told me I need a deload cos I’m feeling tired and unmotivated to train, but then a week or two later it comes back and I’m fine without ever needing to drop the training volume
I agree with that. Often, a deload isn't required just because you had a bad session or two or felt unmotivated for a few days. Those things happen, and they do pass!
-Milo
I like your more empirical approach. Lots of folks in the "evidence-based fitness" community seem to lean much harder into rationalism rather than empiricism when making their recommendations. Where it sometimes feels like they're disregarding data points when it doesn't suit their preconceived notions. You on the other hand make it your job to reference empirical data. Thank you!
Thanks a lot! Although rational thinking and experience are important components; the data should/does play a significant role in guiding us.
-Milo
@@DrMiloWolf Yes, but there are lots of data points. If you restrict yourself only to data coming out of RCTs you are severely limiting your oversight of reality. Not saying you do that. So called empiricism has in some circles, particularly medical science devolved into blind worship of 'gold standard' RCTs... with these ''gold standard' trials often suffering from poor design, execution and interpretation. Cheers.
Just blasted through a bunch of your videos. Excellent content. Love how you go through the studies succinctly and provide nuanced practical recommendations.
Fascinating. It seems to me that consistency wins, always.
AND, learning how to listen to your body so you can learn how to balance adaptation and recovery.
This was what I thought anecdotally but didn't know in terms of science. Thanks!
love to see you grow man, keep it up
EYYYY the OG. Thanks Christian, appreciate the support man! Would be cool to link up if we're both ever back in the hood.
-Milo
Dr. Wolf, thank you for another great video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
-Milo
I've found personally that if I'm doing say a 4 day per week upper lower split with realtively low volumes but training mostly to momentary muscular failure, that I can go a couple months without hittting plateaus from fatigue. And when I deload, I have to still do one upper and one lower at the same intensity (even if i still drop a set to reduce volume on some exercises). If I do nothing for even 5-7 days my CNS has detrained enough that I'll lose 2-3 reps on most exercises. Im definitely for doing extended deloads/minimalist maintenance phases while life demands my full attention (like when new babies come along haha). I always have good gains after due to resensitization of pathways. Also thank you Milo for the advise on lengthened partials. I've been getting the best gains of my life with them. They have way better SFRs compared to standard counterparts. That compared with going to momentary failure (vs 2-3 RIR which may have really been 5 RIR) has really increased the intensity of my workouts and hence stimulus and hypertrophy even at lower volumes.
Eyyyy! Stoked to hear the lengthened work has been helping!
And yeah - I think that's where deloads or maintenance phases are best used: when life gets in the way of training productively!
-Milo
QUALITY WORK!!!!! THANK YOU WOLFFFFFF
THANK YOU MY GUY
-MILO
I remember Dr. Mike always saying “you need a deload, take a deload” … so if you don’t need a break of a few days, why would you take that break?!
Another banger. Thank you!
For deloads I’ve experimented with an approach Dr. Helms talks about. He essentially keeps his RIR/training the same but skips half of his week thereby reducing his volume by half roughly. I also don’t have to go to the gym as often that week. It’s easier mentally for me to hit 2-3 hard sessions then 5 sessions where I go “easy”.
Also, could one also interpret this study that if you take a full week of with zero training (ex: vacation with family) that you don’t need to worry about anything hypertrophy wise?
That's what I usually do, too, but I just let it fall to my holidays or super high stress periods.
Yep, for sure!
-Milo
The drop in muscle size during the 3 weeks of deload was clearly from muscle swelling subsiding.
Another fire video.
I was just watching an old interview with Dr Pac on his research on de loads.
I force deloads, as in my last week on my meso I’m pushing past failure.
As my 3rd week is failure. So I’m hoping I’m still sore on my deload week just so I can do half volume / load.
I look at my deload week as a reward that I can just relax a little in the gym and get to go home early to do normal life stuff instead of doing my 6 days a week 2hr work out and a active rest day, I get to chill for a week.
I think that’s fair. I don’t think deloading every 4 weeks is ideal, but it’s not a big deal, in all likelihood.
-Milo
@@DrMiloWolf haha maybe not Ideal for you young folk but us boomers need that little break.
Lol
My main reason I deload is because of the accumulation of fatigue overtime that starts to impede on my sleep. Whenever I extended my training cycle beyond my usual deload time, no matter how much of sleep got, I would always wake up tired and generally be tired throughout the day. Whenever I do deload though, it seemed like my sleep would improve and go back to baseline. But IMO, you probably don’t need to deload week until you start to lose strength on your lifts.
Great video! Very interesting stuff!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I take deloads autoregulated, maybe every 12 weeks. Usually only as a couple sessions as less hard but not fully off.
I think that's a very solid approach, to be honest!
-Milo
I have a deload this week based on the RP app, in the past, I never did them, but with as hard as I've been going the past 6 weeks, I feel like mentally I can use it. I pushed ridiculously hard the past week and I was looking forward to reducing sets/reps for a moment. Then 4 more weeks and into surgery I go.
I think there's also a lot of value in seeing deloads as technique improvement weeks. Really use those deload weeks to focus on nailing technique.
The one practical confounder to the study may be only training lower body, and that twice a week, which you hint at in the end of the video. There's already a lot of recovery going on compared to someone who's training 4-6 times a week and of course all body parts.
At least for me it's just the cumulative fatigue that comes from the sum total of all the training that makes me feel the need to deload. Though that does beg the question, would doing less each week be a net more if it means you don't need to deload as often, which is something I've wondered about.
They actually also trained upper-body as part of their program - on separate days, unsupervised. So I *think* they were training 4 times a week, quite hard.
I definitely think that if you're not training super hard - lack of motivation, consistency or time - you may never benefit from a deload.
-Milo
Ah I missed they were training 4x / week then it's totally valid. I guess at the end of the day, it's just another variable to manage, train hard and often, you'll probably need to deload, otherwise maybe not.@@DrMiloWolf
For me personally I found that i need to take a deload after 2-3 months of training for like 2-3 weaks. Not when time comes, but when i feel like it. I dont take break from training, but just train much easier. If i do the same exercise in programm over and over, my joints start to hurt, my results are start decreasing, my will to train (inside of session) is lower. So i take that time and heal up little bit, and then slowly go again. It's also just feels good after psychologically to take little break from the gym.
Solid channel to add to my armchair university stack.
Your support is much appreciated 🙏🏻
-Milo
2 things: 1. we are talking about the deloads yet you keep saying "week off from training". those are not the same things. 2. 9 weeks is fine to check but what about a year or 5 years of training. should we keep smashing our muscles with heavier and heavier weights without rest? i dont think so.
I got a very stressfull job as a nurse, so I accumulate a lot of fatigue with the combination of working shifts up to 12 days in a row and training 4-5x per week.
I deload about every 7-8 Weeks, just because of all the fatigue and joint stress.
I plan these Deload Weeks cause I use planned Periodization Models for my Workout Plans.
I don't think thats nescessary for people with pure office jobs or those that are much younger than I am.
For sure. For general lifestyle purposes, deloads may be a nice way to gain some additional time, every once in a while!
-Milo
Deload weeks for me are an opportunity to reset the rep count chasing and refocus on form and tempo, which I can lose over weeks of training. There are no negatives to having a de-load week every 6-8 weeks in my experience.
But aren't most people agreed that the point of deloads is to reduce injury risk? We all know that deloads are not there to produce better gains (excepting potentially resens as you mention) - of course you are going to show more progress if you keep training compared to the group that takes a whole week off. Also i would argue if you still feel "fine" after 9 weeks training straight, you are not training hard enough.
Great information. Thanks
You bet!
-Milo
I like to deload because it gives me a chance to catch up on life. How about a study with people that have full time jobs, families and other events to attend to while we grind out our workouts.
Could you make a video on optimal frequency?
Noted! I'll work towards it.
-Milo
When I was in my mid 20s, I trained quite a bit. The last year or so, I trained 6 days a week. I didn't even know about deloads. But then, I didn't know much about training. At every session, I picked one exercise to up one step. I was always ready for that. So probably, I just missed some gains due to not progressing as fast as I could? I only trained for about 2,5-3 years though. I stopped because I noticed myself spending too much time in front of the mirror and figured it was was not mentally sustainable.
I wonder how advanced the participants in the study were. I'd guess not many advanced lifters would train this little for 9 weeks. If the lifters trained upper body besides the research training, there would be less control of the overall training load. If advanced lifters only trained the amount stated, it would volume vice be a deload in itself.
Would you say that steroid abuse would make a difference here, as it promotes growth of muscle over growth of cognitive tissue as far as I have understood it.
how does this make sense? you can't just keep progressively overloading into infinity! it doesn't work like that.... your joints and connective tissue don't heal at the same rate, not to mention the systematic fatigue that you've been accumulating which is a real thing, and the psychological drive needed to keep you going back into gym, especially towards the end of your meso where intensity is high, volume is high... a deload just washes away all that.. so how can it be a waste of time?!
You can, though. The rate of progressive overload slows down as you progress.
Just to enquire; do you have any citations/evidence supporting the ideas that (1) connective tissue and muscle don't recover at the same rate and (2) that residual fatigue accumulates over time? To my knowledge, recovery timelines from a given session rarely extend past 3-4 days MAX.
-Milo
@@DrMiloWolf have another chat with Dr. Mike Israetel, you guys are pals.... For me personally, deloads work, and I will continue to use them as a tool in my arsenal. If I read what you're saying in this video correctly, taking the deloads at the end of your meso won't necessarily harm anything so badly. It feels like a matter of preference. My only issue is, what you're saying could potentially confuse a novice lifter.
I'd rather run the risk of confusing a beginner lifter - a confusion easily cleared by a question I readily respond to - than running the risk of spreading misinformation!
-Milo
How about a study that considers deloading as a half volume week? Like half the series at 50% max weight?
Great video as always. I always use deloads as a way to mentally reset after 6 weeks of hard training. One week of deloading does a lot to prepare myself for the next 6 weeks. That being said, I wonder, do you know of any literature that actually supports the usage of mesocycles? Or are they just used to specialize in certain muscle groups and for self assessment purposes?
Mesocycles are basically just an organizational term. They're just how we name a period of training lasting 4-8 weeks or so. There's nothing in the literature about them because they're not really a "thing" to begin with.
-Milo
It should be longer period of training, I start to feel beat up (previous light wheights feeling heavy, minor aches and pains, weird sleep, etc...) by week 8-9. So, no difference if a stopped at week 4 or 6 at a similar study. And the deload is no more than 10 days, with some training with heavy weights, low volume, less reps etc..
Well, I also have 2 kids who wake up 2-3 times at night. So, with better sleep, I could maybe go longer.
I defy anyone to do 16 weeks of (including variations like pause, bands, blocks, pins etc) 4x week squat+bench and 3x deadlift at (on the lowest end) 80% of your max and, (on the high end) 110% of your max (as in, gaining so much strength that your RPE based work is done consistantly at a higher weight than your previous 1 rep max) and tell me they can keep running that in perpetuity without a week or 2 taking it a bit easier (doing similar reps but halving the weight) and letting joints/connective tissues recover at the end of it.
It seems this was about "weeks off"/"breaks", not about lighter lifting with a week of less volume/intensity. I would always avoid a week off if I can. Rest always made me weaker, but moderate lifting with some less effort but with some descent volume is something different.
If we reverse the view we can clearly say if we are not interested in strength conditioning we can take a week break without too much malus, if we need a break for the high volume AND we work for strength and conditioning we need a deload with some exercise with high relevance to keep the touch on them.
Is my view in agreement?
This is why i dont like mike israteals model of doing his blocks of low rpe up to rpe 8-9 or something and deloading. Its leaving gains on the table. Also i think having more rest days is way better than having complete deloads of a week or something, if lets say your back hasnt recovered and you have a back day rest 1 more day until its fresh.
Agree, by and large!
-Milo
In slowly moving away from Mike's training style
Same here, having done it for years, I've come to the conclusion that adding sets and changing RIR throws too many wrenches into the works.@@mr.stayindoors6974
In Mike's model you train RPE 10 with high volume on the week before deload. How can you not need a light week after that?
@gracefool yeah from what i understand, your suppose to notice degradations in performance before you deload not just do it blindly, and i dont think 9 weeks is a good amount of time to go off because there could be more short time advantages to not deloading and long term disadvantages. I still don't think its exactly clear what the answer is yet.
Got a question for you Milo. I was a fan of Dante's DC training and still am I suppose even though I have adapted it a bit for my needs. His approach did include fairly long pushing periods with a week de-loading eventually. But, there was sort of a per exercise de-loading as well during the pushing phase if you stagnated on one lift - basically to switch out that lift with a new one targeting the same muscles starting with slightly lower intensity just from the fact that it being a new lift that cycle. Was that a reasonable approach?
You know what's crazy is I've noticed every time I've gotten injured, was the first week coming back from a deload. But I can't say that's the cause.
Likewise, actually. But same - not necessarily a clear cause.
-Milo
How advanced were these trainees?
I hope there are studies that look at longer bouts of uninterrupted training, like say 20 weeks or more, for advanced or intermediates.
This is very interesting and indeed goes counter to what I've heard from the industry. I recall a Jeff Nippard video supporting deloads and now I need to see what it was even referencing.
These were untrained. That said, that's both a strength (fatigue is greater in beginners due to a lack of repeated bout effect) and a limitation (not necessarily generalizable to highly trained lifters).
Glad you found it interesting, king!
-Milo
Very true. I can imagine more advanced trainees benefiting from giving their joints more opportunities to heal from the much higher stresses, but that's pure speculation at this point.
Best science based information right here on your channel. Sharing everywhere I can. You deserve all the views.
Correction from Schoenfeld himself - I overlooked this - participants were actually training before the study!
@@DrMiloWolf Certainly strengthens its applicability to those of us with some experience under our belt.
I'm not sure this study translates to even basic training regimens. Most actual programs have a deload after 6-8 weeks. The 9 weeks in the study is at the top end of most mesocycles where a deload would come afterwards. For the other studies, ive never seen a three-week complete back off incorporated into any program, that just sounds like active detraining. And these studies seemingly take "deloading" to mean no training at all which again most even just decent programs don't have, especially after only 4-6 weeks.
Also, hypertrophy and strength gain are not the only factors of a good program. Things like adherence, sustainability, injury prevention, fatigue management are all important things in the real world that these studies dont really capture. Id be interested to see a more realistic study over the period of 6-12 months where one group trains consistently and the other has a one-week deload after 6-8 weeks (with deload meaning keeping the same or similar sets and reps but cutting 1RM% fairly drastically, NOT just not training at all)
could you do a upper-lower desensitization?
I noticed it kinda works, I had about a decade of non-stop training, then pause for a year, and first month after returning had the best results ever (probably second best, after newbie phase)
I wonder what the age of the study participants were. I’m 49, roughly 8-11% body fat, been training for 13+ years. I’ve been taking a D load week “when I feel like I need it” about once every few months…..when I start noticing my body letting me know 😅
the only thing that ever made me not want to train is go from 160kg 1rm Deadlift to 210kg when i was 30 and started going to the gym and did 18 heavy sets and 10 moderate weight sets of deadlifts a week for 6 months
have never Deadlifted ever since then. this shit fatigued me so much i literally went on 2 week vacation after
interesting studys im curious how much training experiance the participants had? i never was a fan of deloading and i often kinda skipped it or at least shortened it. every now and then i experianced that my body "shut down" and forced me to take a couple of days off. i startet to do deloads preemptively every 4 weeks a 3 day rest. now i use thr RP app andby now did 2 active deloads like the app suggests with very low intensity and volume training and i have to say i like it. you get super hyped to get back to lifting after.
Interesting! I think taking some time off lifting completely usually makes most people less motivated to train (as seen in the Coleman study), but your mileage can definitely vary.
Untrained. That can be argued to be a good or a bad thing. Good in that untrained participants experience the most fatigue (the repeated bout effect isn't working its magic yet). Bad in that results may differ somewhat in more trained participants/not generalise to that population.
-Milo
@@DrMiloWolf thx for the answer and thx for the "repeated bout effect" never heard about that. going to read about it.
do beginners really get more fatigued? sorry when im doubting this (i do not know the research i just know me). when i started i always did 2 sets 12 reps and the 3th set i did AMRep and if i could do more than 12 on the last set i increased weight nexttime. here is the point: AMRep to technical failure. i took quiet a while to gain the ability to maintain technique till the targeted muscle(s) is fried. even today if i try an excercise i never did before it takes a bit till i really start to feel it (or learn proper technique). i feel like being able to deal real damage to a muscle generates more fatigue. maybe i just try to justify my need for deloads because im getting old :D
Correction from Schoenfeld himself - I overlooked this - participants were actually training before the study!
Yeah, they do. Beginners usually don't train as hard, but, all else being equal - if they actually train hard - they get more fatigued.
@@DrMiloWolf shit!
im officially old 😅😝
I usually do 4 weeks of training starting at RIR In Week 1 and ending at RIR 0 at Week 4. Usually after this I have a hard time getting more reps at the same weight why I usually deload. Then next meso, I add weight and try to start 4 reps lower than the weight from the Week before. Would it then make sense to not deload and just start the New meso as described before?
I assume you mean 3RIR in week 1, 0RIR in Week 4.
I'd generally advise going from 2-0RIR most of the time, rather than either staying super submaximal for a full week (e.g. 3RIR in Week 1) or super hard (0RIR in Week 4). Check out my training to failure video!
But yeah, in general - probably not as much of a need to deload as you may think.
-Milo
@@DrMiloWolf Thanks Milo! Makes sense then to go from 2 to 0 RIR over 3 weeks, then add weight and go from 2 to 0 RIR again and then after 3 mesos of this maybe deload going for 4 RIR?
Nah, I'd recommend staying close to 2-0RIR for every exercise every week. You can go a bit easier in the intro week of a block (e.g. 3-1RIR) and a bit harder before a deload (e.g. 1-0RIR) and during a deload (e.g. 4-2RIR), but I wouldn't periodize RIR much. Check out the RIR video!
-Milo
Any longer studies, cuz lifting is lifelong?
Idk if this is considered a deload, but I don’t really decrease intensity, or weight, but I decrease sets. I start off with 3 sets each exercise and climb 1 set each week until I get to 6 sets per exercise then repeat. Seems to help me reduce fatigue and not lose any gains or motivation. When I take a week off, or drop my weight & sets to a minimum I lose momentum. Only been doing it for a few months, but seems to work for me. Anyone have any suggestions or experience with doing something similar?
I mean no offense, but i dont think theres been a study long enough where deloading could take into effect. Like the quads study.... pretty sure deloading is for collective systemic fatgiue and not local fatigue. Not in one camp or the other, but it also depends how physical your job/life is for sure.
Again, im not in one or the other. The studies just seemed to lack replicating an actual realistic scenario. I mean, taking 3 weeks off?? Idk man. Its either one extreme or the other.
At this point if you feel good dont deload, if you work a manual labor job and start building up too much fatigue take a light week or even a day or two off. A week seems like a lot to me but again i think once you workout for a bit you can tell when your body needs even a slight break.
yeah sometimes I just take a extra day or two of rest between sessions
Deloading makes sense for Weight lifters and power lifters because they could focus on their technique. For body building it's useless. If I feel burned out I take a few days off .
There is a guy from Germany a coach his name is carsten pfützenreuter which create an extreme high rep training style with around 50to 100reps. He himself does it like this 1 set extreme high reps than next exercise next muscle and this about 4 to 5 times per week. But there are some other option. The crazy thing is that a lot of people which some of them are alreafy training for decades and natty ( i was writing with some of them. And ask them specific question to evaluate the chance that this guys telling the truth) gaining muscles with this method. What does you think about this. I domt believe in magic but maybe this is the holy grail? Because there is clearly some evidence due my research that at least some people seems to be gaining better muscle with this specific style
It could be a lot of things. In all likelihood, solid genetics. Doing one hard set of 50-100 reps per session, 4-5 times is a "good enough" approach, but it's not the best.
-Milo
Who considers 3 weeks off a deload?
I wish they studied “easy” weeks instead of full on deloads as well
Damn, solid traps bro
Is it possible to deload for a week if I regress in my training?
Why don’t just use common sense…when u feel beat up, take a ‘deload’. Been doing that for years..Took a few days off then ramp up. Didn’t call it a Deload..
Detraining > Deloading, in my experience.
This study really proof nothing. For starters none need to deload after 4 weeks. It’s been said that beginners with 1 year or less experience would probably not need a deload. Systemic fatigue sets in with hi volume of training or time. I have felt systemic fatigue and experience its effects. Like you said light work does not call for reloads.
they need to make this exp on free weights or at least cable machines.
What if you hypertrophy train everyday but have a deload week evry few months? Lol
Were they people who were motivated to train or just a bunch of paid people who liked the D load and didn't want to return to training because they didn't enjoy it to begin with?
And that's all they trained? No upper body?
For the algorithm
Deloads don’t make sense to me.
Also I challenge you to a chest hair competition, Milo
You’re on brother. This is like a couple years of growth. YOU’RE NO MATCH.
-Milo
how did they get rodents jacked
Now I know why you're called wolf 😂
science lifting is cringe, i go by feel, not some poindexter nerd shit