Hey - I’m predicting some people may have strong feelings about this video, one way or the other - all I ask is that you watch the whole thing before you form your opinion here, as there’s details throughout about why I’ve made this video, and why I’ve made it the way I have :)
A very well thought out and constructed video. It was nice hearing from Mr. Myer's perspective. Harley Quinn's show is a favorite of mine, but I didn't realize the extent of it's anti-Semitism. I stand by my criticism of the last video, but I'm glad y'all really got into the guts on this one. Stellar video👍
Lmao same🤣 have u watched it the whole way thru yet? Cuz i’m only in season 2 sooo how far into the video can i get & which parts should i skip in order to not get spoiled?
@@SaveDareDevil-Mx there is absolutely zero value in this video despite the usual clickbait content this channel does. Just watch the show its really funny, season 3 has really bad animation just a heads up.
Honestly, the whole accent joke in season three felt really off to me too. I'm not Jewish, but my own ethnicity has had similar issues with accents and negative stereotypes. I'm a Newfoundlander, and our accent conjures incorrect stereotypes of poor education and bufoonery in broader Western culture; so much so that many of us (myself included) are taught from a young age that we should speak with a "Standard North American" English accent in order to be taken seriously when dealing with Mainlanders. That joke felt like a kick down, because part of my journey of learning self-respect has been reclaiming my Newfoundland English, and overcoming subconscious code-switching to avoid those stereotypes; something that I still struggle with.
I prefer the accented version of Harley. It's her iconic voice. Telling herself to "lay off" comes off as a jab at fans who don't like that Kelly's voice for Harley is just her voice. Personally, I can't stand Kelly's voice for Harley because it's distractingly not Harley.
I think it’s very telling that the character of Harley Quinn has been like the MOST POPULAR comic book character for like the last decade and no one in these comments knew she was Jewish. I didn’t even know she was Jewish.
Seasons 1/2 (Pretty good) = DC UNIVERSE writing team. Season 3 (HORRIBLY UNFUNNY, and it has nothing to do with the white noise coming out this mono-braincell video, from a dying channel, since it got dunked on by EFAP) = HBO MAX.
Bingo. If she was anything else, it would have been overplayed in an over the top empowering way. Only with this can they bury anything positive and go out of their way to make it all a negative portrayal.
yeah, the thing about the accent, in her original incarnation, the Batman Animated Series from the 90s, it's made very clear that the accent is something she puts on specifically for the joker. We hear her speaking in the past before she met the Joker and was operating as a psychiatrist, and her accent is MUCH more subdued. From the get go it's been something she puts on, to make an exaggerated caricature of herself for his benefit. If anything using that accent is her turning herself into a stereotype because the Joker thinks it's funny. In that sense, getting rid of it is her returning to a more authentic version of herself and it's always been seen as empowering and a sign that she's free of her abuser's influence now
@@techsmechs2485 yeah, not saying it's not problematic, it totally is but mostly because of the way it was presented. That seems to be a pattern with these creators. I totally agree with all the points made in the video, especially because they come from an actual jewish voice, I'm just giving my two cents about the accent thing in concept, as a pretty big batman fan. When presented properly it's empowering for victims of abuse
@@TheSleepiestPlurals That makes sense, yeah. It's a real shame, having to second-guess these sorts of empowering things because people can't write with integrity, isn't it?
@@techsmechs2485 exactly. I feel like the way it's presented suggests that having the accent is by itself a bad thing. She was like "and that accent, oh my god!" Like the accent itself is grating. It would have been better if she had said something like "listen to yourself! You're putting that on just for him, you know that?" It's done much better in the animaged series
I always thought that she had that accent in her mind in some incarnations due to the acid, or in BTAS she doesn’t have it in arkham due to wanting to sound more reasonable, like she’s trying to hide that part of herself.
This was a great video. I’m Jewish, and while I quickly picked up the stereotypes Sy borgman embodies, I overall liked what they did with his character arc and forgave a lot of what they did. My biggest issues definitely has to do with the penguin, since he is not canonically Jewish, and making him Jewish in this seemed to tie into way too many negative stereotypes for my comfort. Complete side note here, but “the Patient” on Hulu has some of the best Jewish representation I’ve seen in a while despite Steve Carell not being Jewish.
Ironically, the Ashkenazi Jewish Mafia does exist, and Jewish people people aren't a monolith, meaning people who are Jewish that engage in unethical behavior shouldn't represent billions of people. But yeah is the Cobblepot family Jewish in the comics? I doubt it. In the comics Penguin doesn't have an extended family. He lost his family fortune or most of it was squandered so he regained his wealth by turning to crime.
See. This is the thing. I liked the show, too. And maybe the nods to anti semetism went over my head, or didn't take them seriously. And I saw these characters, as. Human. Where as the goblins are like. Actual Monsters, with the anti semetic tropes dropped in. Like. The context, to me. Made it. Stand out more. But. I'm not Jewish. And Joshua's interaction with Bane was one of my favorite in the show. But. It isn't my place to forgive or dismiss the critique. So. I wasn't sure what to think of all this. I don't want to dismiss anti semtism with all the Alt right stuff. Those guys may make laws trying to ban learning about me (LGBTQ+ folks) from school. But they are a threat to folks like yourself, first. So. I wasn't sure what to make of some of this 🤔
@@marksalmoneussorcerersupreme Yeah, it's something that bugged me in Gotham, too. In the comics (and the Burton movies), the Cobblepots were old money, Mayflower landers. It's why the Penguin was never (before this) an ethnic stereotype - his appearance had nothing to do with his ethnicity. Now, though...
When I was younger, I was often be subject to lots of antisemitic sh*t. Kids at school would make fun of my Star of David and call it a pentacle, and I was once strangled by a guy who proceeded to steal my Star. They would also ask me questions with additional comments that implied that Jewishness was backwards. I would also receive a “nice” little hand written note that said one big word on it. K***. And whenever I confronted people about this type of behavior they would say, it’s just a joke. Committing a hate crime is a joke? Since when! Other Jews I knew would try to fit in by self deprecating themselves. They’d tell their friends they were just dirty Jews and laugh at it. This would cause their friends to think this behavior was alright. Even today I’m still confronted with antisemitism. A guy I know turned out to be a fierce anti-Semite, and he literally screamed at me that how dare I be Jewish. I don’t think this guy would have let me leave the room if I didn’t give him an anxiety attack by telling him and showing him that Euphoria (his favorite show) is based on an Israeli show. Over the years I’ve come to realize the reason why so many think antisemitism is okay, is because Jews are mostly “assimilated”. To end on a happier note, I know the holiday has already ended, but, Happy Sukkot! Ps. We need some more representation of non-white Jews and sephardi Jews. We aren’t a monolith. Ps. Ps. Did you know Doja Cat’s Jewish?
@@shahidabdoullakhanzorovr1564 Antisemitism is the word used for jew hate because in Germany in 1879, people started to call the hate of Jews with a more “scientific” sounding name which was antisemitismus. Also though Juden is not a slur, I would be careful using it because for some Jews brings back the memory of Hitlers propaganda. It doesn’t for me, but I know a lot of people who do take offense.
Another interesting video- I hadn't known Harley Quinn was canonically Jewish. And I agree her commenting on how screwed up these tropes are or how on the nose they are would have sent a very clear message
Would have been super on brand for Harley as a character, too. She's been vocal about minorities before and has a history of calling out bigotry in the middle of a fight. This might be part of why I didn't enjoy the show all that much, it misses big parts of what I love about other versions of Harley.
Even if she didn't skewer them explicitly as "bad examples" or what have you, she at the absolute least could have said something snarky, to the effect of how over the top and atypical these things were. It wouldn't have conflicted with her character at all, and it would establish a tone for such scenarios that was something besides played-straight nasty stereotypes.
This was really kind of you to do and Adam does a good job of explaining himself and more of the problems. As a fellow jewish person, I didn't know the criticisms went beyond the penguin and towards other characters, along with Harley herself.
The whole "Jewish creators making self deprecating jokes" way of comedic writing is kinda tricky because a lot of antisemitic members of the audience love to take those jokes and use them as an excuse to be very open about their bigotry. I'm immediately brought back to the popular days of Borat or South park where people would throw around the words "Stupid jew!" and smugly act like it was a just big joke and that they were just quoting a character but in reality everyone in the know knew precisely what they were doing.
I had a Jewish friend in school who had to deal with a bunch of that from classmates when they would quote South Park, and Black student dealt with racist kids repeating jokes from Dave Chappelle's show in order to hurt feelings. I'm sure my Jewish friend's dad dealt with it when Mel Brooks made his show. Nick Kroll's shows have a similar vibe too. Repeating these jokes when you aren't a part of that culture can come across as insensitive at best, and definitely leaves the door open for racists to openly use racial charged jokes or language at worse
I'm going to be honest, when I saw the title I clicked expecting a clickbaity video that I could criticize, but it actually brings in some really interesting as well as important points. I even learned a few things I didn't know about jewish culture. Thanks for bringing different perspectives into the conversation.
Gotta admit, this is a keenly interesting topic. I'm not Jewish myself, but my grandma and her family was and she hid away from the Nazis while her cousin survived the concentration camps. I definitely think the point about it being unintentional while having Jewish producers is interesting. It kinda reminds me of queer kids who were surrounded by straight people making horribly homophobic jokes to fit in.
@@stoodmuffinpersonal3144 Anti-semitism can be easy to miss, especially when it's generally baked into the air of a culture (Christians were Dedicated to wiping out Judiasm and many still are; now note how many dark, curly haired villains with big noses you see in stories compared to heroes). It was an out of body experience when I mentioned my Jewish family to be asked if they had a crest of money. The video does a good job of explaining the difference of 'laughing at one's own' and reproducing horrible stereotypes.
Hell yeah thanks so much for featuring me PoG!!!!! Hope people enjoy, and like noted in the video I’ll be streaming on twitch at 5 eastern time-about two hours after this video was uploaded
And could be a good place to do a bit of self-deprecating humor, but with balance. Because I feel like a joke about Jewish people and therapy could work as self-deprecating humor, but then the potential danger of that humor can be immediately balanced with as you say some positive representation of how she helps people with it. It brings to mind the JAP rap battle in Crazy Ex Girlfriend, which is packed with self-deprecating humor about Jewish lawyers and over-achieving kids and so forth, but it's also simultaneously displaying pride at the characters' achievements and success. I don't have a good example off the top of my head, but I feel like classic Jewish comedians like Mel Brooks (or *shudder* Woody Allen) do this too. Yeah, there's lots of self-deprecating humor, but there's also an obvious genuine affection and pride. If all you have is self-deprecation, you end up with just self-hate.
@@camipco That generally seems to be the way with most openly Jewish comedians. Seinfeld made a lot of very loving but also very self deprecating jokes over the years, too.
I'm not Jewish so my opinion on the matter isn't too valid but from watching the video, it seems like the jokes aren't the issue, it's not having a straight man to bounce the jokes off. The Boondocks has Huey to bounce off a lot of the jokes. Harley Quinn doesn't have that straight man. I think that's the flaw. I don't think the show is antisemitic, because any joke about race will validate some idiot's racist beliefs, but as Judy Gold once said "Are they laughing for the right reason? What are they laughing at? What are they laughing at? And does it make you feel good to take that easy route, or can you create a joke and take the time and create a bit about being Jewish so people are laughing for the right reasons, you know?"
Every time I watch a video from this channel, I have more respect for and interest in the channel. I enjoyed the first 2 seasons of Harley Quinn, but for some reason I've put off season 3 -- might not be able to watch it, soon, given everything... I'm Jewish, but I have tattoos -- I'm "punk rock Jewish", if you will. I'm definitely reading these articles and coming back to this video. I want to say this isn't the first time Pillar of Garbage has discussed anti-Semitism in media -- truly appreciate the discussion, especially with Kanye West's new rampage.
Speaking as a Jew, *THANK YOU* for platforming Jewish voices. It's incredibly difficult to platform Jewish voices without them being connected (willingly or not) to the Israel-Palestine Conflict. My college is rated as one of the worst colleges in the US for this, with Jews outside of Hillel being subject to gatekeeping, verbal abuse, and sometimes physical harm, all because of a conflict an ocean or two away. Clayface thinking that "Jewish Lightning" is "Black Lightning's Israeli cousin" could be seen as a cheap joke, a self-deprecating joke, or it could be seen as a commentary on that unfortunate phenomenon. The episode where Harley visited her home was... definitely not great. There is at least one positive. I loved Sy's "death" line about the oil of the Maccabees. The line connects his decision to die heroically rather than being the asshole assassin he had been all of his life to his Jewish identity. Yes, it may still have the problematic "Hannukah is the only Jewish holiday" trope, but the line itself was, in my opinion, a form of Jewish empowerment. Honestly, I have mixed feelings on the Bar Mitzvah episode. It comes off antisemitic, but having his nephew LARP robbing a bank as part of a rite of passage also comes off to me as something Penguin would *totally* do. If they had disconnected it from Jewishness, made it an initiation into the mob, or just a generic birthday, it probably would have worked. I'd like to [paraphrase] something that Jonathan Greenblatt, head of the ADL, said on CNN - "Right Wing antisemitism is like a tornado; it blows in and destroys everything. It's fast. It's obvious. Left-Wing antisemitism is like global warming; a constantly rising heat that, even if people try to deny it, or ignore it, it's there, and it will burn everything eventually." Antisemitism is more culturally acceptable (and often concealment) if the dogwhistles or blatant antisemitism come from people who are also advocating for social justice. "The menorah being the symbol of Jews" as Adam calls it is a manifestation of this phenomenon, and the phenomenon I talked about in the first paragraph; between 2017 and 2019, Dyke Marches across the US kicked out Jewish queer women for carrying Pride Flags with Stars of David or straight up banned them beforehand, and there has never been a repeal of this to my knowledge. The Star of David is what should be the symbol of Judaism, but because of the flag of a single country, the menorah has become our symbol without our consent. Meanwhile, on the Right, you've got people claiming to be patriots waving the flag of one of the Free West's worst enemies, claiming that other Right Wing people are "too close to the Jews," and planting bombs or firing guns, their hate becoming a tornado. Ultimately, they have a lot of "course correction" to do, from showing how Harley's Jewish identity *actually* manifests, or if they really want to repent, show how the darker sides of the Joker's new political movement become predatory towards that identity. The latter could even be a plot catalyst for the new anti-heroic Harley; political extremists could attack a synagogue, and she could save it, then the rabbi could have a discussion with her. And, since I wrote this comment during a Jewish holiday besides Hannukah, happy Sukkot.
@@chloepainter4064 Thank you! And don't blame yourself for missing it, I only knew because my Hillel had a special Shabbat dinner (Sushi in the Sukkah) for Sukkot.
Very well written. I think that for the penguin thing, they really could have I don’t know, made Harley point out that he isn’t Jewish, and he would respond saying that his daughter-in-law is so he’s giving his grandson the best 13th birthday he could think of, and Harley would correct him and point out that it’s not just a birthday party, it’s a bar mitzvah, or something. Tie the theme back into him being a robber-baron and not into him being Jewish my making him still not Jewish, AND showcasing a bit of Harley’s care for her Judaism for getting annoyed at non-Jewish penguin entirely missing the point
@@lazydroidproductions1087 This. They could have literally pretty much fixed the episode with this. Except for the part where Harley makes fun of a *13 year-old* for being a virgin... that's weird and possibly disgusting, but maybe that's what they were going for. It is a [usually excellent] comedy about a psychotic anti-villain/anti-hero who willingly calls herself a synonym for "jester" or "clown."
I think that was another reason I missed the thing about Cy. Was that line was so rad. It was a really bad ass Jewish moment. And I liked the moments with Bane and Joshua, and growing into maturity. But, I am not Jewish, and I may not have been as sensitive or underestimated the affects of the stereotypes. Where, the Goblin one in Harry Potter. It's the combination of the Goblin's apparences, not being human, AND their relationship to banking specifically, that made me see it for. Well. It being as messed up as it could be. So. I may have let this slide more than I should have.
You know, I would love to see you discuss middle eastern representation in pop culture and media, and how much orientalism distorts it. Or just more middle eastern representation in general. Not sure how possible that is, but it think it would be nice Still love your content though, stay awesome.
@@PillarofGarbage well I appreciate at least considering it. It's the sort of thing I realized has a sneaky impact on people. I am Lebanese, and recently I was trying to think of a middle east inspired setting for a dnd game. All I could think of, is deserts landscape and stereotypes. DESPITE being from a country with mountains, plains, coasts, and forests. That's hoe insidious misrepresentation can be, it can even affect the people it is referring to.
And its not like ther earent middl eastern representation, like bloody freddy mercury is middle easterner originally. I mean reased very english but still, he made a bloody album on his roots.
A really good video indeed I'm an outsider to this topic (I'm an ex-Protestant turned atheist) This has to be one of your best videos imo. I never considered Adam's thoughts on Jewish culture influencing superhero culture and often it goes to be acknowledged by said culture as prominently as it should. It really should be more highlighted other than paying lip service or doing what other people I see do online (it's a rare instance, mind you. But it does creep up sometimes) is to play "oppression olympics", in which people just ignore a multi-faceted marginalized identity with another multi-faceted marginalized identity in order to devalue the intersectionality of a given issue or criticism. I also echo the sentiment that being critical towards an aspect of the show doesn't equal to cancelculture (or whatever). The more people who love a given piece should be more humble and more critically minded in approaching what their show highlights. The more we need to emphasize that criticism doesn't equal to what online refers to as "cancel culture", the more healthy discourse become (hopefully) For an addition to Adam's thoughts on Judaism and superhero culture, take Steve Rogers/Captain America. There's a video by Overly Sarcastic Productions about Superman and it includes a segment on Captain America and by extension, Clark Kent himself . I couldn't remember it verbatim, but the sentiment was this, "This character is a subversion of the 'ubermensch' that the Nazis propagated. Let's take this 'ubermensch' and say he doesn't approve of your ideology and will actively fight your ideology til it ends". I am paraphrasing, of course, but that's impression I got from their video. It's also done by creator duo whom one is Jewish herself to an extent. Edit Note: th-cam.com/video/_50968MO0PU/w-d-xo.html This one is video I referenced and it speaks to how Superman and Captain America is never thought of it in the general public. It's a really excellent video.
I'm puzzled by the statement that one wouldn't learn from the show that Harley was Jewish, unless you were looking for it. Because I learned Harley was Jewish from this show in the episode where she first goes back to Bensonhurst. And I'm not Jewish. But, it seemed plain and obvious enough to me.
Tikkun olam could be a great connection to Harley's current character arc, if the show would only make it. Also seems like a connection she could make with Ivy, which might help redirect Ivy's goals closer to Harley's. Could have a Rabbi do premarriage counseling with them and talk about the concept as a way to mend their rift.
Having read a lot of harleys comics and being a fan of the show even I missed/forgot that shes jewish. I think this topic is a valid critique of the show with prominent examples of how even the things we like can miss the mark in a few (albeit big) ways
One interesting thing about harley quinn is how her jewishness was used in the past. In in the comic holiday nights, she is explicitly a jewess who wanted a chrismas tree. In the adaptation of that comic in the New Batman adventures, all explicited reference to her judaism were removed.
I think that the Jewish exaggerated accent thing MAYBE could have worked as a clever dissertation of the entire idea of jewish self deprecating comedy, honestly. Because it's always been canon that Harley plays up a silly version of her jewish accent after becoming a super villain, when she was sane she only had a touch of it. If they dwelled on that subject with any nuance, it could have been a great way to make the whole show work, showing that there's a difference between laughing at yourself and being laughed at. Just a few good lines on the subject and they could have implied that all the jewish stereotypes are playing into those stereotypes due to circumstances they were forced into, and because they've been mocked and associated with them so long they internalized it into their identity. I mean, Penguin is practically willingly in a racist caricature costume if they changed him to be Jewish in this show, there's no way he doesn't see what he's doing. And so they should have asked WHY does Joker like her exaggerated Jewish voice? What does that say about him that he finds that funny about her? It would be like if I deliberately played up an Aunt Jemima southern black lady voice so I could be his sidekick. Does that not bother her on a deeper level than just the empowered women angle? I find that unlikely. But... because they don't really clarify the deeper meaning behind disliking her fake voice, when looked at in the context of all their other insults towards the jewish, it comes across as just disliking it for resembling all the "evil jewish people" in the show, an attempt to make her less like them.
Adam is just some guy who is Jewish and your asking him very deep and complicated questions that would be tough even for people who know allot about media or Judaism. I understand why you brought someone on but he even admits he's not really "in touch with his jewishness".
To be honest I had noticed it too(especially since I am Jewish), but I thought I might have just been sensitive. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who's noticed these things.
As another person who loves the show, this puts a bad taste in my mouth. A real taste, a valid taste. I still like the dish, maybe just not this recipe. One animated DC, please. No antisemtic, please. Extra side of queer. Yes, I know it's $1.50 more.
34:00 Welcome to the club, my friend. I say that as an African American woman whose culture has been exported the world over while still being thought of as less than human. This was such an eye opening beautifully discussed video. Than you for it.
TIL Harley Quinn is Jewish after being a DC fan for a long time. I deadass thought she’s a white woman because that’s what shes always looked like: blonde hair, blue eyes, and white skin since she’s always being portrayed by White actresses in live action. Why isnt there enough talk about her heritage in DC then? As for the show, I dont think its “antisemitic” if they’re just making light jabs about race or culture but the show definitely has a lot of edgy satire. I cant speak for Jewish people, but thats just how I feel when it comes to humor about race, culture, and ethnicity as Hispanic guy. I agree with the Adam guy about how characters shouldn’t be known soley for their race. Peace ✌️
13:00 As someone who is very involved in my Jewish community, I'd like to say that I didn't really pick up on that stuff before. In fact, I didn't realize Harley was Jewish from the show before watching this video.
As a jewish man who watched it, I didn't figure out that this show was made by jewish people AND antisemitic... Oh, by the way, Oswald Cobblepot doesn't have to be jewish (for his nephews to celebrate their bar mitsvah) if his spouse is. And strangely, Bruce Wayne is canonically jewish, as his mother was.
I've consumed a lot of Harley media and I'm pretty fond of her. I had ZERO idea she was Jewish. None at all. This whole video is news to me. And I thought her accent was a Boston /NY-ish accent. I don't know anyone who ever associated it as sounding Jewish in particular. Wow
Harley is from Bensonhurst, a neighborhood in Brooklyn just northwest of Coney Island. It has long been thought of as Brooklyn's "Little Italy," but there are other types of New Yorkers there besides Italians. Anyway, Harley's Jewishness is nothing new, having been established as early as 1994. I have a hard time believing that Margot Robbie's Harley is Jewish, though, since her pre-crazy Harleen Quinzel came off as just a standard blonde California girl to me (not that there aren't a few of those who are Jewish). I always assumed Robbie's "ethnic" behavior was just an affectation, just like Gomez from "The Addams Family" pretending to be Spanish when he's obviously a WASP.
Harley was modelled after Arleen Sorkin, who also voiced her in Batman The Animated Series. Sorkin is Jewish, of course, and Paul Dini wrote her based on her personality and mannerisms. So it was always part of the character, even if not stated explicitly.
@@christianrapper "In recording Harley Quinn's voice, Sorkin spoke in her normal Brooklyn accent while putting in a "little Yiddish sound", since Dini made the character Jewish, another aspect of the character borrowed from Sorkin."
This was a great video! I want to speak on representation for a bit because Adam is so right! If you say “well this is just a small part of the character so we don’t need to use actual representation and show the struggles of a minority” you shouldn’t be making ANY minority character if that’s your thinking! I’m not Jewish! But I was born disabled and am non-binary and grew up in the queer community. Those two parts of me are first something I’ve never seen done well in a movie or tv show but even so have them together! Hell they literally hire non disabled actors and throw a mobility aid at them and tell them to act like the character who is disabled. If you have ever seen that older show that aired in like the 2009- 2018 called “The Middle” the youngest child on there is played by Atticus Shaffer. He has my condition called Osteogenesis Imperfecta. We were born with it. I’ve been general friends with him for a while especially at conferences. And when I asked him if he wished he could play a disabled character in the show instead of casting a very obviously disabled person to pretend to not be disabled? He said he wished he was able to incorporate his disability into the show. However the writers say absolutely not. So while I don’t understand not being represented because I’m Jewish, I do completely understand the feeling of no good accurate representation of me or my community. ❤ 15:38
Ironically, the Ashkenazi Jewish Mafia does exist, and Jewish people people aren't a monolith, meaning people who are Jewish that engage in unethical behavior shouldn't and don't represent billions of people. But yeah is the Cobblepot family Jewish in the comics? I doubt it. In the comics Penguin doesn't have an extended family. He lost his family fortune or most of it was squandered so he regained his wealth by turning to crime.
I didn't even know Harley was Jewish? She uses some Yidish but none of her family is even has any Jewish traditions in their household. Like I always thought she was Italian. Playing on the mob stereotyping. Plus, the South Bronx accent she uses isn't only spoken by Jewish people. Ukrainians, Italians, and Greeks who live in New York also use it.
Yeah Jewish, Catholics and Protestants all in the same place overall mixing each other's cultures and overall working with each other. They mainly uplifted their own but yeah. She just seemed like a stereotypical NY white girl that code switches.
I think, well, Harley which is not a lawful, morally correct or socially aware person is not suppose to be the one calling out these stereotypes. Like, it seems slightly off character. Plus, it does seems more like two matches which don't affect each other, like they are horrible people and Jewish, not necessarily an underlying message. Sometimes, despicable people exist in every race, culture, ethnicity or nationality. Sometimes the identity goes further than just their nationality or race, not always about representation.
But Harley Quinn in the show does call out problematic behavior all the time, whether it's perviness, lack of affordable housing, etc. Especially as someone who has grown up around Jewish stereotypes, you think she would at least call out Sy for making up sh*t about Jewish landlords burning houses down. Doesn't have to be much, just a "Jews don't burn down houses, only you do it a**hole. She commented on lack of affordable housing in the show, so it would be in character for her.
She’s not a good person but she isn’t a pushover. Correct me if I’m wrong, but when she is offended, she at the very least says something-and at the most kills the person who’s talking. Would it really be out of her character to shoot a nazi in the head? I don’t think so. So why would someone saying something antisemetic not even get a rise out of her?
Harley has a Comic where she is literally beating the shit out of a nazi. And she is a very thoutful therapist (shown explicitly in the show relating to her relationship with joker) so it makes perfect sense for her to call this out.
Speaking as a Jew, I don't really see how any of the stereotypes they use are anti-Semitic. I can understand why someone who's not super in touch with the community might see them as anti-Semitic but if you look at any other media with jokes about Jews, you'll find that they're very similar to the ones in Harley Quinn. Specifically with Sy, Mel Brooks has played that exact character in just about everything he's been in and no one has taken issue with it. The whole "Bank Bar Mitzva" joke leans a bit more on the money grubbing Jew stereotype than most people would feel comfortable with but I thought it was pretty funny and would have probably done the exact same thing if I had thought of it. The issues with Harley's parents being stereotypes as well baffles me because... They are my parents. They act exactly like them (minus the bounty hunting). Personally, I think while a lot of the jokes fall flat, there's really nothing explicitly anti-Semitic about them. TLDR; Jokes fell flat but that doesn't mean they're anti-Semitic.
Self deprecating jokes made by Jews themselves are a very different thing than these types of jokes in media viewed by the general public, especially coupled with the erasure of the character's Jewish identity. Just because you're Jewish and it didn't bother you doesn't erase the antisemitic nature of these types of tropes.
@@Blue74 I see your point but there's not much erasure of the character's Jewish identity, since there's not a whole lot of it to begin with. Harley is a Jewish character but unlike Sy, it's not a core trait of her character. I may have just completely missed the antisemitism but none of the jokes really had any negative connotations to them. Using the jokes as a way of justifying bigotry is one thing but that's not what the show does.
Well, as a Soviet Jew, living the last 30 years in Israel (the most Jewish community in the world), i say it's bullshit. There are some sharp punches at Jewish identity in the show, but this is a representation of western Jewish comedy. And any jew with actual sense of humor and knowledge of Jewish legacy will recognize it.
“Hal Jordan (Legit, thanks Tom King)” Because retroactively making a character Jewish accomplishes what? I don’t like Atom Smasher because he’s Jewish, I like him because he’s a well-written, well-developed character in the Goyer/Johns JSA run.
I mean it is possible that Penguin himself isn’t Jewish but rather had a brother who married a Jewish woman and they then had Joshua thus making it less anti semtic although it does still make it anti semtic as it used stereotypes such as money and shellfish.
All I just want to say to adam points about certain heroes being Jewish like Spider-Man is a Protestant Christian in comics and the movies while captain America is also a Christian I believe
I'd say it's a general rule that the more major characters of a particular group you have in your story, the less likely it is that stereotypes about that group will be present. And "Harley Quinn" has, in addition to Harley herself, also Sy Borgman, as well as the Penguin and the rest of the Cobblepot family. (Okay, the Penguin's dead, but he was on the show for a while and that's what counts.) And I think only Sy comes close to being stereotypical, being a former Israeli secret agent. Harley is the most complex character on the show except for maybe Ivy or the Joker, and the Penguin was just a basic mobster type; he could easily have been portrayed as, say, Italian. (Not to mention, the character is always being reinvented, Oswald even being British rather than American in the "Arkham Asylum" and "Suicide Squad" series.) What I find much more interesting is the Joker's quest to establish himself as an "honorary Latino" by virtue of his role as a stepfather to Bethany's children, even trying to make Gotham City's services more bilingual. I find that to be a really fresh take. Even though the Joker's very first portrayer in the media was Latino, I've never thought of Latinos as being a particularly funny people, so the contrast is interesting.
Penguin is literally an Anglo-American aristocrat, modeled after Gilded Age Robber Barons. To make him Italian or Jewish is particularly insulting, considering that Italians, Jews, and the Irish were the groups who most commonly had to deal with the terrible conditions that these robber barons forced upon their workers and tenants.
I think one of the hard thing is that a lot of Jewish humor is edgy and often self deprecating. So it can be hard to discern between antisemitism and what is in-joke humor. I clocked the Jewish humor, as a Jew, but it didn't really bother me all that much. I grew up in a new York secular Jewish family, and the characters felt like heightened versions of many of my family members. But, as the saying goes, two Jews three opinions.
The criticism of the Sy Borgman moment in season 3 being meaningless was kind of strange to me. In Season 1, he made an easily recognizably Jewish comment that drew on negative stereotypes and was highlighted as harmful. Understandable. But the next easily recognizably Jewish comment he made was in the context of his performing a heroic act of redemption and he essentially says he is willing and able to help because the blood of his Jewish ancestors still runs through his veins. For a character who gets as limited screen time and development as Sy, this seems like a pretty good step in the direction of a course correction. It clearly would not address everything and isn’t the big step of Harley herself exploring her Jewish heritage but I didn’t expect it to be a “nothing burger” since it seemed to echo Adam’s later comments about how Jewish identity connects to the super hero narrative (ie the very act of heroism reflecting Jewish values).
I'm trying to figure out what is it about this video, and it's probably because I was listening to Chapo Trap House, specifically them discussing "secular Jewish" vs "religious Jewish" thing conservatives do; and verilybitchie's video on bisexual representation and the fear of the "bad queer" in media
Often times these types of videos or points can get obnoxious or start to reach but there's real meat to this and you do a very good job presenting it fairly.
This is a real difficult topic, right characters too inoffensive and they’re boring, don’t poke fun and you have no spine Does this random commenter think it’s anti-Semitic? Not upon my 1st viewing but I’ll check this out with a new lens do I think this is a Candace Owen’s level of throwing their people under the bus? Nope lol it’s pretty forward thinking and well written
Hey, I just wanted to bring in some information about the menorah as a symbol of Judaism. I am Jewish, and have done a lot of research and learning about Jewish history from a more secular lens. One of the things that I found fascinating is that the Jewish star didn't use to be a Jewish symbol. It used to just be a mystical one found in Christian, Muslim and Jewish beliefs tied to king Solomon. It only really became the symbol of the Jews in 17th century Prague, and then widely in the 19th century. The menorah, in contrast, is actually one of the oldest symbols of Judaism. But the menorah has 7 branches, whereas the Chanukah has 9, (It has 9 to commemorate the 8 days that the oil lasted in the original 7 branched menorah :) ). Harley holds up a Chanukah in the shot, not a menorah. The menorah was one of the main things that was in the temple in Jerusalem, and can be seen in the arch of Titus in Rome as one of the things the Romans took when they destroyed the second temple. I therefore think it is more complicated than it just being a symbol of Chanukah that is being forced on us, and instead maybe a recognition of one of Judaisms oldest symbols. I I personally also hate the centralizing of Chanukah just because it is near Christmas. Chanukah is one of my favorite holidays because it is about Jewish Independence and self actualization, but it is not as central to Judaism as Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashannah, or even Passover. if you are interested in learning more about Jewish history, I recommend Sam Arronow's series, which does a good job taking a secular and historic look at it.
Not commenting on the particular nitty gritty of harley quinn's anti-semitism as you are and always have done a pretty good job of digging into my own bugbears by the videos end-- but do want to point out just how much i'm enjoying the interview/conversational aspect from you! I know its not your usual type of video and you've done similar (The She-Hulk video comes to mind but was more edited and less conversational) but you do a good job of asking questions and leaving the floor open for open ended answers and discussion. It's nice and certainly a different, enjoyable vibe.
For me, it seems like the Jewish stereotypes humor is so over the top and so irrelevant to the plot that it comes off as silly nonsense. Antisemitism is racist gibberish, and this show seems to be attempting to make that clear. Which is not to say it is or isn’t offensive. Nor is it a judgment on whether the writers are doing anything worthwhile or responsible or thoughtful. YMMV, obviously. It’s good to see the writers (yes, Jewish themselves) move away from that well. They’ve knocked it off, to some extent, but I agree with your first interviewee that they haven’t really done much to counteract the negative stuff.
I have not seen this show and will revisit this video once I do. However in the meantime here is a like and a comment as offering for the algorithm gods
LoL literally just did the same for the same exact reason🤣i trust Pillar tk have done his research & to have respectfully & constructively brought up good arguments as warnings for maybe some subconscious feelings the creators might be projecting here or just simply have accidentally made this come off this way thru an accidental imbalance of overly jewish-teasing jokes😅Like how he’s caught the MCU from obliviously going down a path that might accidentally come off the wrong way or backfire😹Have u watched it the whole way thru yet btw? Cuz i’m only in season 2 sooo how far into the video can i get & which parts should i skip in order to not get spoiled?
0:42 first time learning of this Stuff like this is important for me to watch because I know basically nothing about Jewish stereotyping so it's good to know what's offensive 25:34 I didn't know that that was specifically a Jewish voice! It sounds so good (The original from the TAS that it's riffing on despite that easily being the best and honestly only good Harley Quinn voice? And yeah telling someone to "tone down the accent" is so weird, like, huh?) 26:15 I mean, I guess. She still HAD an accent before that though she just had a more subdued way of talking in general that would tone down any accent through its manner of speaking, and when she went out on the town in TAS as herself, not Harleen Quinzell or Harley Quinn but just a girl who wants a dress, she still very clearly had an accent, because that's her most natural manner of speaking!
I did not realize they made Penguin Jewish specifically for this show. That makes a big difference. Though I can see why they thought it would make sense for him to be Jewish. With the immigrant outcast part of his character. I did not connect the whole bank/money thing to Judaism and just saw it as a commentary on Penguin and crime bosses in general. I can see how that was insensitive of them. I also thought the seafood was a joke about Penguin being a penguin. As a Jewish person I had never even heard of Jewish lightning before, but yeah using the furnace made sense and there was no need to reference that. Cy as an old person escaped from the nursing home as you said makes just as much sense and is funnier in my opinion. Because of who Harley is, as a character and her lifestyle, it makes sense that her Jewish roots wouldn't be a large part of the show, but they definitely could have included some more nods to it. Not about Harley Quin, but as a Jewish person I didn't even realize the goblins were from a Jewish stereotype, but deciding to start using them as villains was probably a very bad idea. With menorahs, personally my family packs them all away for most of the year, we don't just have them sitting around to proclaim Jewishness
I was not aware of Peter Parker being Jewish. His surname is not Jewish. If the writers used life experiences that were non-explicitly (is that what "implicitly" means?) Jewish, maybe that was because they were writing from their own experience.
It's actually weird that he said there's a lack of Jewish comic book characters... they're probably the single most represented demographic, it just isn't central to all of their characters much like it isn't central to every Jew. Especially in Marvel. I could see thinking there's not many Jewish DC characters, because they have a much more representative level of representation than Marvel does, which comparatively makes DC feel lacking but like, they're there.
Love videos like this, so thank you I didn't pick up on this while watching and honestly I'm a little embarrassed by that. If this were something that pertained to me, I'm sure I would've noticed it and just goes to show I have to be more open minded
It was a really interesting video and I'm glad someone is discussing some of the problems with the show (I like it a lot but I'd be lying if I said there weren't some moments that made me uncomfortable and I'm not even Jewish). Ps you can do edgy humour without being problematic. One of my good friends is a mix of a Jew of German descent (whose family fled Hitler's regime) and Italian descent (whose family fled Mussolini's regime). When Trumps was elected and we were all depressed, his response was: Hey, at least hopefully my future wife is fleeing the regime and will be joining me in Canada soon. The worst part? It turned out to be true, he is now dating a Muslim girl who has a transgender sister (her family immigrated to protect her).
A self deprecating joke that I think could’ve been more interesting with her parents is calm instead of having her mom just be a stereotype and her dad being a money hungry asshole, maybe have them grill her over what she’s been up to, how her health is, yada-yada, and then ask if she’s lonely and if they should call a match-maker. She’d say no, she’s got a girlfriend and you could have them look down and be like “oh… a girlfriend”, you think maybe a joke about homophobia but nah, they say “not even a fiancé,” they’re just pushing her to get married but are still supportive. I dunno, just thinking of ways that might improve the jokes from harmfully stereotypical to actually self-deprecating
I think racial and homophobic humour is part of the show and playing up to stereotypes is always going to be a natural part of such an “edgy” show but I understand the frustration of how targeted this feels . Looks like Ye might be a writer for some of the episodes lmfao
Isn't this show edgy though? I mean... Harley's parents try to kill her for God sake and I don't think that that has to do with them being Jewish... I mean that's ridiculous. Good video and interesting, but why this even needs to be talked about is funny to me.
Yeah the HP goblins are definitely the fault of the movie being live action, having short actors with prosthetics, and the decision to make goblins into Near Creatures with caucasian skin. The problem could have been solved if they definitely were green. Goblins have been many things in fiction but it's only now cause of Harry Potter that everyone with a Twitter account things goblins as a concept are anti-semitic
Okay I have so many opinions. First off, want to say I totally respect your stance here, and really appreciate that you brought Adam on to share a Jewish perspective. While I disagree with a lot (some exceptions), I don't intend in any way to condescend or invalidate his experience. (Just saying that explicitly because I know tone can be hard over text-only.) HARLEY IS JEWISH -- This is the main point I'll agree on, that this aspect completely absent from the show. In fact I'll go so far as to say that I strongly agree, because... I had no idea Harley was Jewish until right now. Like just completely didn't pick up on that. HARLEY'S ACCENT -- I disagree with Adam's point here. I don't see the TAS accent as Jewish, but Brooklyn-ese. If you have a source on the original actress choosing the accent based on the character's Judaism then so be it, but I doubt this can be the case since her earliest appearances were as a background henchwoman and her backstory was all added later. I don't recall her being identified as Jewish at all in BTAS (like I said I didn't know she was Jewish until this video) but could be forgetting. PENGUIN -- I love the Bar Mitzvah episode. Sorry... Like you say repeatedly, everyone in the show is terrible. I don't see Penguin's brand of evil as stemming from his Judaism, anymore than Bane's evil would from his Tom Hardy voice. It's just a gimmick they're playing up for more specific humor, and a Bar Mitzvah was a fun way of getting that across since it's a big party about a 13-year-old becoming a man. And it's so silly seeing all these huge important adult villains attending a child's overblown birthday party. If it had been like a wedding or something like that, it just would not have had the same effect. I also didn't find any of the jokes here particularly problematic. SY BORGMAN -- I hear what you're saying, and I respect your take. I'm just not personally bothered by Jewish creators writing Jew-jokes to be delivered by a Jewish voice actor. Especially not when that voice actor is George Costanza. Maybe I'm projecting George onto the character just because of the actor, but I do see a lot of Seinfeld influence in how he's written and I enjoy that. JEWISH LANDLORD -- I've honestly never heard this stereotype. The stereotype I think of is Greek or Russian landlords. But I can accept that it is a stereotype which I'm simply not familiar with (that happens). Is it okay if I'm not offended simply because I like the character? JEWISH LIGHTNING -- Reference went over my head. I'm with Harley in wondering if it's Black Lightning's Israeli cousin (I like that second joke by the way because it also seems to poking fun at how black characters always have "black" in their name). Now that you've explained the joke, I can see why it's offensive. HARLEY'S PARENTS -- Again I didn't realize they were Jewish... Honestly I didn't see them as Jewish stereotypes, I mean obviously since I didn't even realize they were Jewish. I just saw them as neurotic parents stereotypes, which is not exclusive to Jews. The Gentile part of my family is so much more neurotic and ridiculous than the Jewish part of my family. Also I disagree with them being revealed as "evil Jews" as problematic, because again every character in the show is evil. Heck even Batman is essentially an accidental supervillain. When your only representation of a "good" character is Batgirl, I think it's silly to consider every Jewish character bad representation. They don't need to add a "good" Jew to counterbalance the bad ones. Also this episode is super funny but also really heartbreaking and it's too sad for me to want it to be different. It's not trying to represent Jews, but to represent children whose parents are legitimately unforgivable, which is something I appreciate when so much of Hollywood (*cough* Black Widow *cough*) insists that family should always be forgiven no matter what. JEWISH ACTORS -- Since I mentioned it with Sy Borgman and George Costanza (yes I know his name is Jason Alexander but he'll always be George Costanza to me), I'll mention that I don't really think Jewish characters NEED to be played by Jewish actors. It makes a difference in this case, simply because he is so clearly a Jewish stereotype with many many Jew-jokes. But no hate intended to Oscar Isaac or Michael Fassbender or Ian McKellan or whoever else. Just my opinion on that matter, I know others disagree. PETER PARKER AS JEW-CODING -- I've heard this take many times before, and I honestly kind of hate it. The only argument I've ever understood is that he's neurotic, or maybe that he says "oy" in Bendis' run (something everyone says in Bendis' run). While neurosis is a common Jew stereotype, it's hardly exclusive to Jews. Watch any Martin Scorsese movie and you'll see plenty of neurosis, yet I've never heard anyone refer to these incredibly Catholic characters as Jew-coded. Now if someone adapted Peter as a Jew (I was unaware Spider-Verse PBP was Jewish) then I'd be fine with that -- it's not like Catholicism is essential to the character or anything. He does I think have Irish roots, based on naming conventions, but this is never really explored and frankly I myself have Irish roots so that is hardly a deal-breaker. MENORAH AS JEW-CODING -- I don't recall the specifics of the scene in question, but I'll agree with you that this doesn't seem like it is actually establishing Harley as Jewish in any way. Really I just wanted to comment on the "Hannukah is an unimportant holiday therefore the menorah is ineffective as representation." Firstly, yes. That is accurate. It's not BAD to showcase Hannukah, just awkward as the main representation. Secondly, I would specify that the HANNUKAH menorah is the issue, as there is also a Shabbos menorah with only six candles instead of eight. The Shabbos menorah would be better representation. It's literally just two less arms. FUTURE REPRESENTATION -- While I don't think it's necessary, I also would be happy if the show explicitly discussed Harley's Judaism, even if just in one episode. She's obviously non-practicing so it doesn't need to be a big point, but yeah it'd be nice to not have to learn she's Jewish from a TH-cam video. PROPOSED FIXES TO PREVIOUS EPISODES -- i.e. "You give Jews a bad name!" While I wasn't offended by the previous Jew-jokes, I also like your fixes and think they would've been funny and positive additions. The show definitely plays into many stereotypes, but also frequently leans into socially aware humor with a ton of success, so these additions would've been perfectly in place and now feel like a missed opportunity since you bring them up. JEWISH CREATORS AND SELF-DEPRECATING HUMOR -- I'm sorry but I'm on their side here. I think they can portray their own people however they want. I do understand why Adam finds it offensive and I believe that's valid, but I also don't believe the creators are acting in bad faith, even unintentionally. You make an interesting point that many of the stereotypes are ones historically imposed by Gentiles. I would counter-argue that it can be empowering and entertaining to reclaim and poke fun at such inaccurate stereotypes, which I believe they do successfully. COMMENTING AS A GENTILE -- Like I said I really appreciate that you found a Jewish voice to join you and partake in the discussion. I can see why some would want you to back off, and admit it can be frustrating as a Jew being told by a gentile that I should be offended by something. However, I also see that you're doing thorough research and are not simply making assumptions. Your claims are backed up and obviously supported by at least some Jews. I don't see a problem here, especially not when you make it a point to include a Jewish voice in the discussion. I may disagree sometimes, but I do not represent all Jews anymore than Adam does, and my lack of finding offense does not invalidate those who do. I mean, you do seem a little obsessed with Jewish representation specifically in recent videos, and I'd be interested for you to branch to either types of representation. I also understand that it's an algorithm thing and you've gotta do what you gotta do on TH-cam. So long as you continue to do your research, I appreciate that you're using your platform to amplify voices not your own.
i actually started thinking about marvel with the Jews relevance to the comics in mind, which is for example why i don't want marvel to change the origin story of magneto, even if they have to make him 200 years old
After I watched the first season I had no clue she was Jewish. Also I thought penguins nephew was Jewish and not penguin himself but I definitely could’ve missed something. Still if it’s interpreted as offensive by someone in that demographic then it’s not ok.
First of all, great video. I understand why some of my friends and co-religionists are offended, but I wouldn't say the show is antisemitic. Am I the only one who sees the resemblance between Joshua Cobblepot and Jared Kushner? It really seems like they had a funny idea--What if Jared was the Penguin's nephew and became Harley's nemesis? And what if we get the kid who plays Adam Goldberg to voice him?--and they didn't think how it would play to non-Jewish audiences. It's a misanthropic show with nasty characters, but I have a tough time believing that it's a gateway drug for hard-core neo-Nazism.
I was already doubting myself, as they constantly referred to it as a menorah. And they discussed Hanukkah so often but did not remark that it is a Hanukkiah
I'll give an important addition to the discussion. Like Adam, and many Jews in general, the connection to the Jewish people came to me later in life. It's so easy to pretend being Jewish doesn't matter when young and very much secular, but there's a cumulative effect over the years, where eventually the barrier between cultural antisemitism and the self can't be maintained anymore. No one wants to understand that bigotry is aimed towards them specifically in a way completely unrelated to self-image and actualization. Anyways, there's a point that irks me. Saying to someone to "tone it down" or "making Jews look bad" deserves one retort: "why, so I can pretend to be one of 'the good ones'?". If a Christian child would have a bank-themed birthday party no one would bat an eye about their Christianity, and embracing stereotypes is one way where people deal with them by turning them into a choice rather than something forced upon them (a theme explored extensively in civil rights movements, and put front and center in the X-Men franchise). But a part of antisemitism is that the Jewish religion is brought up every time a Jewish person does something bad and is erased the moment they are good, and also if a Jewish person does something stereotypical they are brought up disproportionately (Ben Stiller is always brought up when talking about nepotism in Hollywood, despite most cases not being of Jewish actors). And through these lenses, a lot of Jewish people internalize bigotry. So a lot of the motifs in the show can be understood as working through these issues, which is where I think they're coming from. I am not excusing it though, because as Adam said, yes, they absolutely have failed in representing anything Jewish as something more than one-dimensional and based on tropes. A lot of this could have been forgiven if it was given the context of Harley having an internal struggle with her Jewish identity. As Adam pointed out, her just mentioning that a different Jew leaning into a negative stereotype made her feel in any way uncomfortable would instantly add a ton of depth to it... but it feels like the writers are ashamed of the character being Jewish more than anything else. Which is another type of Jewish stereotype (the self-hating Jew).
When I saw your thumbnail I merely thought that the answer to your question was yes, simply because the show is very offensive. I do unfortunately agree that antisemitism is on the rise. For example Whoopi Goldberg literally said that the Holocaust doesn’t matter compared to the struggle of Black people and she literally just got a slap on the wrist.
Technically Harley isn't Jewish in the comics, she just identifies as one because she grew up with her father's culture, which he is Jewish. The only ways to actually be Jewish is if your mother was Jewish prior to being you being born, or if you yourself convert. Since only her father is Jewish, and she didn't convert, Harley only follows Jewish culture. But as for the show's concern, I do believe both her parents are Jewish, so you are correct on her being Jewish(besides the comics being used for example).
@@Jane-oz7pp You have to officially convert to be a jew. You can be raised into the culture by family, but unless your mother is Jewish, you aren't actually Jewish until you convert.
Okay, I haven't seen this video (yet), I'm willing to give it a fair shot and even recognise the show's flaws. It's not a perfect show but it's one of my faves and definitely my biggest comfort show. I just hope whatever's pointed out in this essay won't detract from my enjoyment of it much.
I've known of Harley Quinn for a long time, and I've always quite liked her. She's popular, she's badass, and her looks are awesome. A few months ago I started watching this animated series, Harley Quinn. However, I did not know that she was Jewish until I watched this video, like many other commenters here. I did not even know of Judaism until my 7th grade year (U.S.) and even then, with the way it was taught via story books and plays, I thought it wasn't a real religion. Only around my 10th grade year did I discover it being an actual religion. I was also never exposed to Jewish characters through media whatsoever (aside from the aforementioned storybooks and plays), despite me constantly consuming any media I could. The reason I'm saying this is because I think it goes to show just how important Jewish representation is, and how minimal it's actually done - and when it IS done, it's done terribly. This is why Jewish representation is so important. If I had never learned about Judaism and it's history, and about anti-semitism, I would've been lead to believe that Jewish people are just lizard people who are rich and hoard money and burn down places, and well, to say the least, that's not a good thing. I understand that this series whole schtick is dark jokes and stuff, but they almost always explain why whatever is said is wrong and calling out that behavior, like that one scene in the beginning of this video with the Joker and Bethany. By not calling out the anti-semitism within the show, it's contributing to the harm.
I do agree with some of the Adam comments about the show but when he said that he is starting to reconnect with his religion and commenting about the show without fully understanding his religion makes his comments to me not that great. I mean if I am listening to someone complaining about the show representation of their religion and they are not truly connected to it, it makes some of their comments not valid to me. Just wait and understand everything about your religion to fully give your valid comments about it without people like me commenting on him.
Hey - I’m predicting some people may have strong feelings about this video, one way or the other - all I ask is that you watch the whole thing before you form your opinion here, as there’s details throughout about why I’ve made this video, and why I’ve made it the way I have :)
Wasn’t expecting this vid, but I’m sure it will be a well researched vid, even though i’ve never heard about this. (/srs)
Harley Quinn. Got. Jewish. Hergite
A very well thought out and constructed video. It was nice hearing from Mr. Myer's perspective. Harley Quinn's show is a favorite of mine, but I didn't realize the extent of it's anti-Semitism. I stand by my criticism of the last video, but I'm glad y'all really got into the guts on this one. Stellar video👍
I zoidberg the seldepricating humor, that would just interesting.
I just feel bad for Kiteman.
never expected a title like this
Lmao same🤣 have u watched it the whole way thru yet? Cuz i’m only in season 2 sooo how far into the video can i get & which parts should i skip in order to not get spoiled?
@@SaveDareDevil-Mx there is absolutely zero value in this video despite the usual clickbait content this channel does. Just watch the show its really funny, season 3 has really bad animation just a heads up.
@@elsienova4269 anime pfp invalid opinion
@@siilverREAL fr
@@elsienova4269show is only funny up to szn 2 then it starts getting more unfunny
Honestly, the whole accent joke in season three felt really off to me too. I'm not Jewish, but my own ethnicity has had similar issues with accents and negative stereotypes. I'm a Newfoundlander, and our accent conjures incorrect stereotypes of poor education and bufoonery in broader Western culture; so much so that many of us (myself included) are taught from a young age that we should speak with a "Standard North American" English accent in order to be taken seriously when dealing with Mainlanders. That joke felt like a kick down, because part of my journey of learning self-respect has been reclaiming my Newfoundland English, and overcoming subconscious code-switching to avoid those stereotypes; something that I still struggle with.
I prefer the accented version of Harley. It's her iconic voice. Telling herself to "lay off" comes off as a jab at fans who don't like that Kelly's voice for Harley is just her voice. Personally, I can't stand Kelly's voice for Harley because it's distractingly not Harley.
@@Stargazer_Ley who’s Kelly?
@@HyperWolf The voice actress who plays Harley. (If I have the wrong name that's who I'm trying to say.
@@Stargazer_Ley you mean Kaley Cuoco?
@@ShirDeutch is that how it's spelled? Yes her.
I think it’s very telling that the character of Harley Quinn has been like the MOST POPULAR comic book character for like the last decade and no one in these comments knew she was Jewish. I didn’t even know she was Jewish.
i knew but i’m obsessed lol
The name Quinzel, mixed with her overly nasally East Coast accent, always threw up red flags for me. Also, big knockers. Not surprised.
lmfao you dont read comics.
Seasons 1/2 (Pretty good) = DC UNIVERSE writing team.
Season 3 (HORRIBLY UNFUNNY, and it has nothing to do with the white noise coming out this mono-braincell video, from a dying channel, since it got dunked on by EFAP) = HBO MAX.
Bingo. If she was anything else, it would have been overplayed in an over the top empowering way. Only with this can they bury anything positive and go out of their way to make it all a negative portrayal.
yeah, the thing about the accent, in her original incarnation, the Batman Animated Series from the 90s, it's made very clear that the accent is something she puts on specifically for the joker. We hear her speaking in the past before she met the Joker and was operating as a psychiatrist, and her accent is MUCH more subdued. From the get go it's been something she puts on, to make an exaggerated caricature of herself for his benefit. If anything using that accent is her turning herself into a stereotype because the Joker thinks it's funny. In that sense, getting rid of it is her returning to a more authentic version of herself and it's always been seen as empowering and a sign that she's free of her abuser's influence now
They said all that themselves in this video. And, that it's treading a dangerous line anyway, with everything else the showrunners are getting up to.
@@techsmechs2485 yeah, not saying it's not problematic, it totally is but mostly because of the way it was presented. That seems to be a pattern with these creators. I totally agree with all the points made in the video, especially because they come from an actual jewish voice, I'm just giving my two cents about the accent thing in concept, as a pretty big batman fan. When presented properly it's empowering for victims of abuse
@@TheSleepiestPlurals That makes sense, yeah. It's a real shame, having to second-guess these sorts of empowering things because people can't write with integrity, isn't it?
@@techsmechs2485 exactly. I feel like the way it's presented suggests that having the accent is by itself a bad thing. She was like "and that accent, oh my god!" Like the accent itself is grating. It would have been better if she had said something like "listen to yourself! You're putting that on just for him, you know that?" It's done much better in the animaged series
I always thought that she had that accent in her mind in some incarnations due to the acid, or in BTAS she doesn’t have it in arkham due to wanting to sound more reasonable, like she’s trying to hide that part of herself.
This was a great video. I’m Jewish, and while I quickly picked up the stereotypes Sy borgman embodies, I overall liked what they did with his character arc and forgave a lot of what they did. My biggest issues definitely has to do with the penguin, since he is not canonically Jewish, and making him Jewish in this seemed to tie into way too many negative stereotypes for my comfort.
Complete side note here, but “the Patient” on Hulu has some of the best Jewish representation I’ve seen in a while despite Steve Carell not being Jewish.
I HATED what they did with Sy Borgman early on, but I also ended up liking where they went with his character arc.
Ironically, the Ashkenazi Jewish Mafia does exist, and Jewish people people aren't a monolith, meaning people who are Jewish that engage in unethical behavior shouldn't represent billions of people.
But yeah is the Cobblepot family Jewish in the comics? I doubt it. In the comics Penguin doesn't have an extended family. He lost his family fortune or most of it was squandered so he regained his wealth by turning to crime.
See. This is the thing.
I liked the show, too. And maybe the nods to anti semetism went over my head, or didn't take them seriously. And I saw these characters, as. Human. Where as the goblins are like. Actual Monsters, with the anti semetic tropes dropped in. Like. The context, to me. Made it. Stand out more. But. I'm not Jewish.
And Joshua's interaction with Bane was one of my favorite in the show.
But. It isn't my place to forgive or dismiss the critique. So. I wasn't sure what to think of all this.
I don't want to dismiss anti semtism with all the Alt right stuff. Those guys may make laws trying to ban learning about me (LGBTQ+ folks) from school. But they are a threat to folks like yourself, first.
So. I wasn't sure what to make of some of this 🤔
@@margaretwinds
That's what I found with Joshua (The Penguin's son, too).
But again. Not Jewish. So I wasn't sure if I was in the wrong about it.
@@marksalmoneussorcerersupreme Yeah, it's something that bugged me in Gotham, too. In the comics (and the Burton movies), the Cobblepots were old money, Mayflower landers. It's why the Penguin was never (before this) an ethnic stereotype - his appearance had nothing to do with his ethnicity. Now, though...
When I was younger, I was often be subject to lots of antisemitic sh*t. Kids at school would make fun of my Star of David and call it a pentacle, and I was once strangled by a guy who proceeded to steal my Star. They would also ask me questions with additional comments that implied that Jewishness was backwards. I would also receive a “nice” little hand written note that said one big word on it. K***. And whenever I confronted people about this type of behavior they would say, it’s just a joke. Committing a hate crime is a joke? Since when! Other Jews I knew would try to fit in by self deprecating themselves. They’d tell their friends they were just dirty Jews and laugh at it. This would cause their friends to think this behavior was alright.
Even today I’m still confronted with antisemitism. A guy I know turned out to be a fierce anti-Semite, and he literally screamed at me that how dare I be Jewish. I don’t think this guy would have let me leave the room if I didn’t give him an anxiety attack by telling him and showing him that Euphoria (his favorite show) is based on an Israeli show.
Over the years I’ve come to realize the reason why so many think antisemitism is okay, is because Jews are mostly “assimilated”. To end on a happier note, I know the holiday has already ended, but, Happy Sukkot!
Ps. We need some more representation of non-white Jews and sephardi Jews. We aren’t a monolith.
Ps. Ps. Did you know Doja Cat’s Jewish?
I did not know Doja Cat is Jewish, interesting!
kek
The term should be Judeophobia. Are Juden the only Semites? 🙄
@@shahidabdoullakhanzorovr1564 Antisemitism is the word used for jew hate because in Germany in 1879, people started to call the hate of Jews with a more “scientific” sounding name which was antisemitismus. Also though Juden is not a slur, I would be careful using it because for some Jews brings back the memory of Hitlers propaganda. It doesn’t for me, but I know a lot of people who do take offense.
Lol why write out so many lies...
Fucks sake
Another interesting video- I hadn't known Harley Quinn was canonically Jewish. And I agree her commenting on how screwed up these tropes are or how on the nose they are would have sent a very clear message
Would have been super on brand for Harley as a character, too. She's been vocal about minorities before and has a history of calling out bigotry in the middle of a fight. This might be part of why I didn't enjoy the show all that much, it misses big parts of what I love about other versions of Harley.
Even if she didn't skewer them explicitly as "bad examples" or what have you, she at the absolute least could have said something snarky, to the effect of how over the top and atypical these things were.
It wouldn't have conflicted with her character at all, and it would establish a tone for such scenarios that was something besides played-straight nasty stereotypes.
I only know from being a huge Harley fan back in the day who fixated on learning more about her online.
I was today years old when I found out Harley is Jewish... 🤯
Fr
:O Too
so's bruce btw
Same
This was really kind of you to do and Adam does a good job of explaining himself and more of the problems. As a fellow jewish person, I didn't know the criticisms went beyond the penguin and towards other characters, along with Harley herself.
The whole "Jewish creators making self deprecating jokes" way of comedic writing is kinda tricky because a lot of antisemitic members of the audience love to take those jokes and use them as an excuse to be very open about their bigotry. I'm immediately brought back to the popular days of Borat or South park where people would throw around the words "Stupid jew!" and smugly act like it was a just big joke and that they were just quoting a character but in reality everyone in the know knew precisely what they were doing.
I had a Jewish friend in school who had to deal with a bunch of that from classmates when they would quote South Park, and Black student dealt with racist kids repeating jokes from Dave Chappelle's show in order to hurt feelings. I'm sure my Jewish friend's dad dealt with it when Mel Brooks made his show. Nick Kroll's shows have a similar vibe too. Repeating these jokes when you aren't a part of that culture can come across as insensitive at best, and definitely leaves the door open for racists to openly use racial charged jokes or language at worse
Exactly that is why as Jewish person, the jokes in HQ made me uncomfortable, well at least one of the reasons.
I'm going to be honest, when I saw the title I clicked expecting a clickbaity video that I could criticize, but it actually brings in some really interesting as well as important points. I even learned a few things I didn't know about jewish culture. Thanks for bringing different perspectives into the conversation.
Gotta admit, this is a keenly interesting topic. I'm not Jewish myself, but my grandma and her family was and she hid away from the Nazis while her cousin survived the concentration camps.
I definitely think the point about it being unintentional while having Jewish producers is interesting. It kinda reminds me of queer kids who were surrounded by straight people making horribly homophobic jokes to fit in.
And idk If it's being not Jewish, or my history of doing exactly that, that made me less critical of these things
@@stoodmuffinpersonal3144 Anti-semitism can be easy to miss, especially when it's generally baked into the air of a culture (Christians were Dedicated to wiping out Judiasm and many still are; now note how many dark, curly haired villains with big noses you see in stories compared to heroes). It was an out of body experience when I mentioned my Jewish family to be asked if they had a crest of money.
The video does a good job of explaining the difference of 'laughing at one's own' and reproducing horrible stereotypes.
If it was your maternal grandmother then you're Jewish too
Hell yeah thanks so much for featuring me PoG!!!!! Hope people enjoy, and like noted in the video I’ll be streaming on twitch at 5 eastern time-about two hours after this video was uploaded
As a fellow Jew, thanks for speaking up about this.
@@sem2412m you’re so welcome, it was an honor to be brought on board!
Harley being a therapist alone is a great way to show positive Jewish representation with the need to help and stuff
Harley being a therapist is because of her boyfriend and she failed the test and sleep with the professor to get it
And could be a good place to do a bit of self-deprecating humor, but with balance. Because I feel like a joke about Jewish people and therapy could work as self-deprecating humor, but then the potential danger of that humor can be immediately balanced with as you say some positive representation of how she helps people with it.
It brings to mind the JAP rap battle in Crazy Ex Girlfriend, which is packed with self-deprecating humor about Jewish lawyers and over-achieving kids and so forth, but it's also simultaneously displaying pride at the characters' achievements and success.
I don't have a good example off the top of my head, but I feel like classic Jewish comedians like Mel Brooks (or *shudder* Woody Allen) do this too. Yeah, there's lots of self-deprecating humor, but there's also an obvious genuine affection and pride. If all you have is self-deprecation, you end up with just self-hate.
@@davidspearim5552 not canon to the show so not really relevant here lol
@@youtubestayatyourrootsforfsake she’s a successful therapist in the show, tho. We see that with Ivy, Bruce, and other characters
@@camipco That generally seems to be the way with most openly Jewish comedians. Seinfeld made a lot of very loving but also very self deprecating jokes over the years, too.
I'm not Jewish so my opinion on the matter isn't too valid but from watching the video, it seems like the jokes aren't the issue, it's not having a straight man to bounce the jokes off. The Boondocks has Huey to bounce off a lot of the jokes. Harley Quinn doesn't have that straight man. I think that's the flaw. I don't think the show is antisemitic, because any joke about race will validate some idiot's racist beliefs, but as Judy Gold once said "Are they laughing for the right reason? What are they laughing at? What are they laughing at? And does it make you feel good to take that easy route, or can you create a joke and take the time and create a bit about being Jewish so people are laughing for the right reasons, you know?"
That's a good take ngl
This is exactly how I felt about it.
I agree to a point but Jewish lightning is not a thing so why did they feel the need to invent a conspiracy?
Every time I watch a video from this channel, I have more respect for and interest in the channel. I enjoyed the first 2 seasons of Harley Quinn, but for some reason I've put off season 3 -- might not be able to watch it, soon, given everything... I'm Jewish, but I have tattoos -- I'm "punk rock Jewish", if you will. I'm definitely reading these articles and coming back to this video. I want to say this isn't the first time Pillar of Garbage has discussed anti-Semitism in media -- truly appreciate the discussion, especially with Kanye West's new rampage.
Speaking as a Jew, *THANK YOU* for platforming Jewish voices. It's incredibly difficult to platform Jewish voices without them being connected (willingly or not) to the Israel-Palestine Conflict. My college is rated as one of the worst colleges in the US for this, with Jews outside of Hillel being subject to gatekeeping, verbal abuse, and sometimes physical harm, all because of a conflict an ocean or two away. Clayface thinking that "Jewish Lightning" is "Black Lightning's Israeli cousin" could be seen as a cheap joke, a self-deprecating joke, or it could be seen as a commentary on that unfortunate phenomenon.
The episode where Harley visited her home was... definitely not great.
There is at least one positive. I loved Sy's "death" line about the oil of the Maccabees. The line connects his decision to die heroically rather than being the asshole assassin he had been all of his life to his Jewish identity. Yes, it may still have the problematic "Hannukah is the only Jewish holiday" trope, but the line itself was, in my opinion, a form of Jewish empowerment.
Honestly, I have mixed feelings on the Bar Mitzvah episode. It comes off antisemitic, but having his nephew LARP robbing a bank as part of a rite of passage also comes off to me as something Penguin would *totally* do. If they had disconnected it from Jewishness, made it an initiation into the mob, or just a generic birthday, it probably would have worked.
I'd like to [paraphrase] something that Jonathan Greenblatt, head of the ADL, said on CNN - "Right Wing antisemitism is like a tornado; it blows in and destroys everything. It's fast. It's obvious. Left-Wing antisemitism is like global warming; a constantly rising heat that, even if people try to deny it, or ignore it, it's there, and it will burn everything eventually." Antisemitism is more culturally acceptable (and often concealment) if the dogwhistles or blatant antisemitism come from people who are also advocating for social justice. "The menorah being the symbol of Jews" as Adam calls it is a manifestation of this phenomenon, and the phenomenon I talked about in the first paragraph; between 2017 and 2019, Dyke Marches across the US kicked out Jewish queer women for carrying Pride Flags with Stars of David or straight up banned them beforehand, and there has never been a repeal of this to my knowledge. The Star of David is what should be the symbol of Judaism, but because of the flag of a single country, the menorah has become our symbol without our consent. Meanwhile, on the Right, you've got people claiming to be patriots waving the flag of one of the Free West's worst enemies, claiming that other Right Wing people are "too close to the Jews," and planting bombs or firing guns, their hate becoming a tornado.
Ultimately, they have a lot of "course correction" to do, from showing how Harley's Jewish identity *actually* manifests, or if they really want to repent, show how the darker sides of the Joker's new political movement become predatory towards that identity. The latter could even be a plot catalyst for the new anti-heroic Harley; political extremists could attack a synagogue, and she could save it, then the rabbi could have a discussion with her.
And, since I wrote this comment during a Jewish holiday besides Hannukah, happy Sukkot.
Just wanted to say, as a fellow jew, your comment is awesome! Also, It wa Sukkot?! I can't believe I missed it!
@@chloepainter4064 Thank you!
And don't blame yourself for missing it, I only knew because my Hillel had a special Shabbat dinner (Sushi in the Sukkah) for Sukkot.
Very well written. I think that for the penguin thing, they really could have I don’t know, made Harley point out that he isn’t Jewish, and he would respond saying that his daughter-in-law is so he’s giving his grandson the best 13th birthday he could think of, and Harley would correct him and point out that it’s not just a birthday party, it’s a bar mitzvah, or something. Tie the theme back into him being a robber-baron and not into him being Jewish my making him still not Jewish, AND showcasing a bit of Harley’s care for her Judaism for getting annoyed at non-Jewish penguin entirely missing the point
@@lazydroidproductions1087 This. They could have literally pretty much fixed the episode with this.
Except for the part where Harley makes fun of a *13 year-old* for being a virgin... that's weird and possibly disgusting, but maybe that's what they were going for. It is a [usually excellent] comedy about a psychotic anti-villain/anti-hero who willingly calls herself a synonym for "jester" or "clown."
I think that was another reason I missed the thing about Cy. Was that line was so rad. It was a really bad ass Jewish moment.
And I liked the moments with Bane and Joshua, and growing into maturity.
But, I am not Jewish, and I may not have been as sensitive or underestimated the affects of the stereotypes. Where, the Goblin one in Harry Potter. It's the combination of the Goblin's apparences, not being human, AND their relationship to banking specifically, that made me see it for. Well. It being as messed up as it could be.
So. I may have let this slide more than I should have.
You know, I would love to see you discuss middle eastern representation in pop culture and media, and how much orientalism distorts it.
Or just more middle eastern representation in general.
Not sure how possible that is, but it think it would be nice
Still love your content though, stay awesome.
I think I’d need to read a good deal more Edward Said before I tackle something like that - I’d love to have a go one day though!
@@PillarofGarbage well I appreciate at least considering it. It's the sort of thing I realized has a sneaky impact on people.
I am Lebanese, and recently I was trying to think of a middle east inspired setting for a dnd game. All I could think of, is deserts landscape and stereotypes. DESPITE being from a country with mountains, plains, coasts, and forests. That's hoe insidious misrepresentation can be, it can even affect the people it is referring to.
And its not like ther earent middl eastern representation, like bloody freddy mercury is middle easterner originally. I mean reased very english but still, he made a bloody album on his roots.
A really good video indeed
I'm an outsider to this topic (I'm an ex-Protestant turned atheist)
This has to be one of your best videos imo. I never considered Adam's thoughts on Jewish culture influencing superhero culture and often it goes to be acknowledged by said culture as prominently as it should. It really should be more highlighted other than paying lip service or doing what other people I see do online (it's a rare instance, mind you. But it does creep up sometimes) is to play "oppression olympics", in which people just ignore a multi-faceted marginalized identity with another multi-faceted marginalized identity in order to devalue the intersectionality of a given issue or criticism.
I also echo the sentiment that being critical towards an aspect of the show doesn't equal to cancelculture (or whatever). The more people who love a given piece should be more humble and more critically minded in approaching what their show highlights. The more we need to emphasize that criticism doesn't equal to what online refers to as "cancel culture", the more healthy discourse become (hopefully)
For an addition to Adam's thoughts on Judaism and superhero culture, take Steve Rogers/Captain America. There's a video by Overly Sarcastic Productions about Superman and it includes a segment on Captain America and by extension, Clark Kent himself . I couldn't remember it verbatim, but the sentiment was this, "This character is a subversion of the 'ubermensch' that the Nazis propagated. Let's take this 'ubermensch' and say he doesn't approve of your ideology and will actively fight your ideology til it ends". I am paraphrasing, of course, but that's impression I got from their video. It's also done by creator duo whom one is Jewish herself to an extent.
Edit Note:
th-cam.com/video/_50968MO0PU/w-d-xo.html
This one is video I referenced and it speaks to how Superman and Captain America is never thought of it in the general public. It's a really excellent video.
This was really well-handled. Thank you for shining a light on this kinda stuff.
I feel like thats just due to the sense of Jewish humor permeating the series. Im Jewish and i never got the sense it was antisemtic.
I'm puzzled by the statement that one wouldn't learn from the show that Harley was Jewish, unless you were looking for it. Because I learned Harley was Jewish from this show in the episode where she first goes back to Bensonhurst. And I'm not Jewish. But, it seemed plain and obvious enough to me.
Tikkun olam could be a great connection to Harley's current character arc, if the show would only make it. Also seems like a connection she could make with Ivy, which might help redirect Ivy's goals closer to Harley's. Could have a Rabbi do premarriage counseling with them and talk about the concept as a way to mend their rift.
as a jewish person i will allow this show to exist. You have the J pass
Lol
Having read a lot of harleys comics and being a fan of the show even I missed/forgot that shes jewish. I think this topic is a valid critique of the show with prominent examples of how even the things we like can miss the mark in a few (albeit big) ways
One interesting thing about harley quinn is how her jewishness was used in the past. In in the comic holiday nights, she is explicitly a jewess who wanted a chrismas tree. In the adaptation of that comic in the New Batman adventures, all explicited reference to her judaism were removed.
They deep dive into king shark’s culture more than Harley Quinn the main characters culture let that sink in…
I don’t know if it was intentional but i see the pun you made there
I think that the Jewish exaggerated accent thing MAYBE could have worked as a clever dissertation of the entire idea of jewish self deprecating comedy, honestly. Because it's always been canon that Harley plays up a silly version of her jewish accent after becoming a super villain, when she was sane she only had a touch of it. If they dwelled on that subject with any nuance, it could have been a great way to make the whole show work, showing that there's a difference between laughing at yourself and being laughed at. Just a few good lines on the subject and they could have implied that all the jewish stereotypes are playing into those stereotypes due to circumstances they were forced into, and because they've been mocked and associated with them so long they internalized it into their identity. I mean, Penguin is practically willingly in a racist caricature costume if they changed him to be Jewish in this show, there's no way he doesn't see what he's doing.
And so they should have asked WHY does Joker like her exaggerated Jewish voice? What does that say about him that he finds that funny about her? It would be like if I deliberately played up an Aunt Jemima southern black lady voice so I could be his sidekick. Does that not bother her on a deeper level than just the empowered women angle? I find that unlikely. But... because they don't really clarify the deeper meaning behind disliking her fake voice, when looked at in the context of all their other insults towards the jewish, it comes across as just disliking it for resembling all the "evil jewish people" in the show, an attempt to make her less like them.
Adam is just some guy who is Jewish and your asking him very deep and complicated questions that would be tough even for people who know allot about media or Judaism. I understand why you brought someone on but he even admits he's not really "in touch with his jewishness".
To be honest I had noticed it too(especially since I am Jewish), but I thought I might have just been sensitive. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who's noticed these things.
As another person who loves the show, this puts a bad taste in my mouth.
A real taste, a valid taste.
I still like the dish, maybe just not this recipe.
One animated DC, please. No antisemtic, please. Extra side of queer.
Yes, I know it's $1.50 more.
This comment made my day 😂 I second the extra side of queer
34:00 Welcome to the club, my friend. I say that as an African American woman whose culture has been exported the world over while still being thought of as less than human.
This was such an eye opening beautifully discussed video. Than you for it.
The "accent" joke just came off to me that Past Harley was playing up her accent for the sake of the Harley Quinn persona
TIL Harley Quinn is Jewish after being a DC fan for a long time.
I deadass thought she’s a white woman because that’s what shes always looked like: blonde hair, blue eyes, and white skin since she’s always being portrayed by White actresses in live action. Why isnt there enough talk about her heritage in DC then?
As for the show, I dont think its “antisemitic” if they’re just making light jabs about race or culture but the show definitely has a lot of edgy satire. I cant speak for Jewish people, but thats just how I feel when it comes to humor about race, culture, and ethnicity as Hispanic guy. I agree with the Adam guy about how characters shouldn’t be known soley for their race. Peace ✌️
13:00 As someone who is very involved in my Jewish community, I'd like to say that I didn't really pick up on that stuff before. In fact, I didn't realize Harley was Jewish from the show before watching this video.
a valuable point to make, thank you!
i’m Jewish and I love Harley Quinn but wowwww this show not great when it comes to how stereotype-y it is when it comes to its Jewish characters.
As a jewish man who watched it, I didn't figure out that this show was made by jewish people AND antisemitic...
Oh, by the way, Oswald Cobblepot doesn't have to be jewish (for his nephews to celebrate their bar mitsvah) if his spouse is.
And strangely, Bruce Wayne is canonically jewish, as his mother was.
Then maybe it's just not antisemitic. Feel like a lot of this stuff is a real stretch and is trying to justify antisemitism where there is none.
I've consumed a lot of Harley media and I'm pretty fond of her. I had ZERO idea she was Jewish. None at all. This whole video is news to me.
And I thought her accent was a Boston /NY-ish accent. I don't know anyone who ever associated it as sounding Jewish in particular. Wow
Apparently in the comics her mom is Jewish and her father is Irish Catholic.
Harley is from Bensonhurst, a neighborhood in Brooklyn just northwest of Coney Island. It has long been thought of as Brooklyn's "Little Italy," but there are other types of New Yorkers there besides Italians. Anyway, Harley's Jewishness is nothing new, having been established as early as 1994. I have a hard time believing that Margot Robbie's Harley is Jewish, though, since her pre-crazy Harleen Quinzel came off as just a standard blonde California girl to me (not that there aren't a few of those who are Jewish). I always assumed Robbie's "ethnic" behavior was just an affectation, just like Gomez from "The Addams Family" pretending to be Spanish when he's obviously a WASP.
Harley was modelled after Arleen Sorkin, who also voiced her in Batman The Animated Series. Sorkin is Jewish, of course, and Paul Dini wrote her based on her personality and mannerisms. So it was always part of the character, even if not stated explicitly.
Her accent is a New York accent
@@christianrapper
"In recording Harley Quinn's voice, Sorkin spoke in her normal Brooklyn accent while putting in a "little Yiddish sound", since Dini made the character Jewish, another aspect of the character borrowed from Sorkin."
This was a great video! I want to speak on representation for a bit because Adam is so right! If you say “well this is just a small part of the character so we don’t need to use actual representation and show the struggles of a minority” you shouldn’t be making ANY minority character if that’s your thinking!
I’m not Jewish! But I was born disabled and am non-binary and grew up in the queer community. Those two parts of me are first something I’ve never seen done well in a movie or tv show but even so have them together! Hell they literally hire non disabled actors and throw a mobility aid at them and tell them to act like the character who is disabled.
If you have ever seen that older show that aired in like the 2009- 2018 called “The Middle” the youngest child on there is played by Atticus Shaffer. He has my condition called Osteogenesis Imperfecta. We were born with it. I’ve been general friends with him for a while especially at conferences. And when I asked him if he wished he could play a disabled character in the show instead of casting a very obviously disabled person to pretend to not be disabled? He said he wished he was able to incorporate his disability into the show. However the writers say absolutely not.
So while I don’t understand not being represented because I’m Jewish, I do completely understand the feeling of no good accurate representation of me or my community. ❤ 15:38
Ironically, the Ashkenazi Jewish Mafia does exist, and Jewish people people aren't a monolith, meaning people who are Jewish that engage in unethical behavior shouldn't and don't represent billions of people.
But yeah is the Cobblepot family Jewish in the comics? I doubt it. In the comics Penguin doesn't have an extended family. He lost his family fortune or most of it was squandered so he regained his wealth by turning to crime.
I didn't even know Harley was Jewish? She uses some Yidish but none of her family is even has any Jewish traditions in their household. Like I always thought she was Italian. Playing on the mob stereotyping. Plus, the South Bronx accent she uses isn't only spoken by Jewish people. Ukrainians, Italians, and Greeks who live in New York also use it.
Yeah Jewish, Catholics and Protestants all in the same place overall mixing each other's cultures and overall working with each other. They mainly uplifted their own but yeah. She just seemed like a stereotypical NY white girl that code switches.
Her Non Villainy Name is Harleen Quinzel, it would fit.
I think, well, Harley which is not a lawful, morally correct or socially aware person is not suppose to be the one calling out these stereotypes. Like, it seems slightly off character. Plus, it does seems more like two matches which don't affect each other, like they are horrible people and Jewish, not necessarily an underlying message. Sometimes, despicable people exist in every race, culture, ethnicity or nationality. Sometimes the identity goes further than just their nationality or race, not always about representation.
But Harley Quinn in the show does call out problematic behavior all the time, whether it's perviness, lack of affordable housing, etc. Especially as someone who has grown up around Jewish stereotypes, you think she would at least call out Sy for making up sh*t about Jewish landlords burning houses down. Doesn't have to be much, just a "Jews don't burn down houses, only you do it a**hole. She commented on lack of affordable housing in the show, so it would be in character for her.
She’s not a good person but she isn’t a pushover. Correct me if I’m wrong, but when she is offended, she at the very least says something-and at the most kills the person who’s talking. Would it really be out of her character to shoot a nazi in the head? I don’t think so. So why would someone saying something antisemetic not even get a rise out of her?
Harley has a Comic where she is literally beating the shit out of a nazi. And she is a very thoutful therapist (shown explicitly in the show relating to her relationship with joker) so it makes perfect sense for her to call this out.
Speaking as a Jew, I don't really see how any of the stereotypes they use are anti-Semitic. I can understand why someone who's not super in touch with the community might see them as anti-Semitic but if you look at any other media with jokes about Jews, you'll find that they're very similar to the ones in Harley Quinn. Specifically with Sy, Mel Brooks has played that exact character in just about everything he's been in and no one has taken issue with it. The whole "Bank Bar Mitzva" joke leans a bit more on the money grubbing Jew stereotype than most people would feel comfortable with but I thought it was pretty funny and would have probably done the exact same thing if I had thought of it. The issues with Harley's parents being stereotypes as well baffles me because... They are my parents. They act exactly like them (minus the bounty hunting). Personally, I think while a lot of the jokes fall flat, there's really nothing explicitly anti-Semitic about them.
TLDR; Jokes fell flat but that doesn't mean they're anti-Semitic.
Self deprecating jokes made by Jews themselves are a very different thing than these types of jokes in media viewed by the general public, especially coupled with the erasure of the character's Jewish identity. Just because you're Jewish and it didn't bother you doesn't erase the antisemitic nature of these types of tropes.
@@Blue74 I see your point but there's not much erasure of the character's Jewish identity, since there's not a whole lot of it to begin with. Harley is a Jewish character but unlike Sy, it's not a core trait of her character. I may have just completely missed the antisemitism but none of the jokes really had any negative connotations to them. Using the jokes as a way of justifying bigotry is one thing but that's not what the show does.
I only watch criticism videos when people love the media they are criticizing otherwise it just becomes un-fun
Well, as a Soviet Jew, living the last 30 years in Israel (the most Jewish community in the world), i say it's bullshit. There are some sharp punches at Jewish identity in the show, but this is a representation of western Jewish comedy. And any jew with actual sense of humor and knowledge of Jewish legacy will recognize it.
“Hal Jordan (Legit, thanks Tom King)”
Because retroactively making a character Jewish accomplishes what?
I don’t like Atom Smasher because he’s Jewish, I like him because he’s a well-written, well-developed character in the Goyer/Johns JSA run.
if you are referring to harley she was created as a jewish character from the start
@@exilestudios9546 I’m clearly not referring to Harley, as evidenced by the quote that I chose to highlight from that list.
I didn't even realised that Harley is Jewish (I don't really read Harley comics)
dang the comment section here was very supportive and then the more i scrolled the worse it got
35,000 subscribers and only 650 likes? What a horrible ratio
The like/dislike ratio here is 93% positive - it’s just a case of this video not appealing to every subscriber, I guess 🤷♂️
93% positive 🤷♂️
I mean it is possible that Penguin himself isn’t Jewish but rather had a brother who married a Jewish woman and they then had Joshua thus making it less anti semtic although it does still make it anti semtic as it used stereotypes such as money and shellfish.
All I just want to say to adam points about certain heroes being Jewish like Spider-Man is a Protestant Christian in comics and the movies while captain America is also a Christian I believe
In most versions Peter Parker is Jewish and literally always has been.
It's literally one of the reasons he was Stan Lee's favourite.
I'd say it's a general rule that the more major characters of a particular group you have in your story, the less likely it is that stereotypes about that group will be present. And "Harley Quinn" has, in addition to Harley herself, also Sy Borgman, as well as the Penguin and the rest of the Cobblepot family. (Okay, the Penguin's dead, but he was on the show for a while and that's what counts.) And I think only Sy comes close to being stereotypical, being a former Israeli secret agent. Harley is the most complex character on the show except for maybe Ivy or the Joker, and the Penguin was just a basic mobster type; he could easily have been portrayed as, say, Italian. (Not to mention, the character is always being reinvented, Oswald even being British rather than American in the "Arkham Asylum" and "Suicide Squad" series.)
What I find much more interesting is the Joker's quest to establish himself as an "honorary Latino" by virtue of his role as a stepfather to Bethany's children, even trying to make Gotham City's services more bilingual. I find that to be a really fresh take. Even though the Joker's very first portrayer in the media was Latino, I've never thought of Latinos as being a particularly funny people, so the contrast is interesting.
If you've never thought of Latin people as funny, that's a skill issue.
Penguin is literally an Anglo-American aristocrat, modeled after Gilded Age Robber Barons.
To make him Italian or Jewish is particularly insulting, considering that Italians, Jews, and the Irish were the groups who most commonly had to deal with the terrible conditions that these robber barons forced upon their workers and tenants.
@@plaidpvcpipe3792 yeah golden age penguin, most penguins now adays are mobsters
What was that last part?
WDYM? I think we are really funny
I think one of the hard thing is that a lot of Jewish humor is edgy and often self deprecating. So it can be hard to discern between antisemitism and what is in-joke humor.
I clocked the Jewish humor, as a Jew, but it didn't really bother me all that much. I grew up in a new York secular Jewish family, and the characters felt like heightened versions of many of my family members. But, as the saying goes, two Jews three opinions.
The criticism of the Sy Borgman moment in season 3 being meaningless was kind of strange to me. In Season 1, he made an easily recognizably Jewish comment that drew on negative stereotypes and was highlighted as harmful. Understandable. But the next easily recognizably Jewish comment he made was in the context of his performing a heroic act of redemption and he essentially says he is willing and able to help because the blood of his Jewish ancestors still runs through his veins. For a character who gets as limited screen time and development as Sy, this seems like a pretty good step in the direction of a course correction. It clearly would not address everything and isn’t the big step of Harley herself exploring her Jewish heritage but I didn’t expect it to be a “nothing burger” since it seemed to echo Adam’s later comments about how Jewish identity connects to the super hero narrative (ie the very act of heroism reflecting Jewish values).
I'm trying to figure out what is it about this video, and it's probably because I was listening to Chapo Trap House, specifically them discussing "secular Jewish" vs "religious Jewish" thing conservatives do; and verilybitchie's video on bisexual representation and the fear of the "bad queer" in media
Often times these types of videos or points can get obnoxious or start to reach but there's real meat to this and you do a very good job presenting it fairly.
I like how you're always talking about ways you improve your videos
This is a real difficult topic, right characters too inoffensive and they’re boring, don’t poke fun and you have no spine
Does this random commenter think it’s anti-Semitic? Not upon my 1st viewing but I’ll check this out with a new lens
do I think this is a Candace Owen’s level of throwing their people under the bus? Nope lol it’s pretty forward thinking and well written
Hey, I just wanted to bring in some information about the menorah as a symbol of Judaism. I am Jewish, and have done a lot of research and learning about Jewish history from a more secular lens. One of the things that I found fascinating is that the Jewish star didn't use to be a Jewish symbol. It used to just be a mystical one found in Christian, Muslim and Jewish beliefs tied to king Solomon. It only really became the symbol of the Jews in 17th century Prague, and then widely in the 19th century. The menorah, in contrast, is actually one of the oldest symbols of Judaism. But the menorah has 7 branches, whereas the Chanukah has 9, (It has 9 to commemorate the 8 days that the oil lasted in the original 7 branched menorah :) ). Harley holds up a Chanukah in the shot, not a menorah.
The menorah was one of the main things that was in the temple in Jerusalem, and can be seen in the arch of Titus in Rome as one of the things the Romans took when they destroyed the second temple. I therefore think it is more complicated than it just being a symbol of Chanukah that is being forced on us, and instead maybe a recognition of one of Judaisms oldest symbols. I
I personally also hate the centralizing of Chanukah just because it is near Christmas. Chanukah is one of my favorite holidays because it is about Jewish Independence and self actualization, but it is not as central to Judaism as Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashannah, or even Passover.
if you are interested in learning more about Jewish history, I recommend Sam Arronow's series, which does a good job taking a secular and historic look at it.
Harley’s Irish father married a Jewish woman?
Not commenting on the particular nitty gritty of harley quinn's anti-semitism as you are and always have done a pretty good job of digging into my own bugbears by the videos end-- but do want to point out just how much i'm enjoying the interview/conversational aspect from you! I know its not your usual type of video and you've done similar (The She-Hulk video comes to mind but was more edited and less conversational) but you do a good job of asking questions and leaving the floor open for open ended answers and discussion. It's nice and certainly a different, enjoyable vibe.
Great to hear, thank you!
0:49 I actually have an original print of the issue that Doc Samson image came from. I dunno just wanted to put that out there.
Awesome!
Excellent video. Adam’s perspective here is valuable and I’m really glad you platformed him.
For me, it seems like the Jewish stereotypes humor is so over the top and so irrelevant to the plot that it comes off as silly nonsense.
Antisemitism is racist gibberish, and this show seems to be attempting to make that clear.
Which is not to say it is or isn’t offensive. Nor is it a judgment on whether the writers are doing anything worthwhile or responsible or thoughtful. YMMV, obviously.
It’s good to see the writers (yes, Jewish themselves) move away from that well. They’ve knocked it off, to some extent, but I agree with your first interviewee that they haven’t really done much to counteract the negative stuff.
I have not seen this show and will revisit this video once I do. However in the meantime here is a like and a comment as offering for the algorithm gods
LoL literally just did the same for the same exact reason🤣i trust Pillar tk have done his research & to have respectfully & constructively brought up good arguments as warnings for maybe some subconscious feelings the creators might be projecting here or just simply have accidentally made this come off this way thru an accidental imbalance of overly jewish-teasing jokes😅Like how he’s caught the MCU from obliviously going down a path that might accidentally come off the wrong way or backfire😹Have u watched it the whole way thru yet btw? Cuz i’m only in season 2 sooo how far into the video can i get & which parts should i skip in order to not get spoiled?
Oh also does it still count if i comment within threads or should i type something random as an original thread?
Bro it’s the best cuz then you have something to watch when you finish. Happy viewing!
0:42 first time learning of this
Stuff like this is important for me to watch because I know basically nothing about Jewish stereotyping so it's good to know what's offensive
25:34 I didn't know that that was specifically a Jewish voice! It sounds so good (The original from the TAS that it's riffing on despite that easily being the best and honestly only good Harley Quinn voice? And yeah telling someone to "tone down the accent" is so weird, like, huh?) 26:15 I mean, I guess. She still HAD an accent before that though she just had a more subdued way of talking in general that would tone down any accent through its manner of speaking, and when she went out on the town in TAS as herself, not Harleen Quinzell or Harley Quinn but just a girl who wants a dress, she still very clearly had an accent, because that's her most natural manner of speaking!
I did not realize they made Penguin Jewish specifically for this show. That makes a big difference. Though I can see why they thought it would make sense for him to be Jewish. With the immigrant outcast part of his character. I did not connect the whole bank/money thing to Judaism and just saw it as a commentary on Penguin and crime bosses in general. I can see how that was insensitive of them. I also thought the seafood was a joke about Penguin being a penguin.
As a Jewish person I had never even heard of Jewish lightning before, but yeah using the furnace made sense and there was no need to reference that.
Cy as an old person escaped from the nursing home as you said makes just as much sense and is funnier in my opinion.
Because of who Harley is, as a character and her lifestyle, it makes sense that her Jewish roots wouldn't be a large part of the show, but they definitely could have included some more nods to it.
Not about Harley Quin, but as a Jewish person I didn't even realize the goblins were from a Jewish stereotype, but deciding to start using them as villains was probably a very bad idea.
With menorahs, personally my family packs them all away for most of the year, we don't just have them sitting around to proclaim Jewishness
This is great criticism. A lot of this I didn't pick up on, but it's definitely valid, and i'm glad you're talking about it!
I was not aware of Peter Parker being Jewish. His surname is not Jewish. If the writers used life experiences that were non-explicitly (is that what "implicitly" means?) Jewish, maybe that was because they were writing from their own experience.
So what if it is, also jewish people aren't the only semites/semitic group
I had no idea spider man was Jewish. I thought he was just a relatable nerd.
Forced code.
It's actually weird that he said there's a lack of Jewish comic book characters... they're probably the single most represented demographic, it just isn't central to all of their characters much like it isn't central to every Jew. Especially in Marvel.
I could see thinking there's not many Jewish DC characters, because they have a much more representative level of representation than Marvel does, which comparatively makes DC feel lacking but like, they're there.
Tbh Spider-Man being Jewish makes complete sense too, him being a white kid from forest hills Queens n all.
He isn't, or at least wasn't
Love videos like this, so thank you
I didn't pick up on this while watching and honestly I'm a little embarrassed by that. If this were something that pertained to me, I'm sure I would've noticed it and just goes to show I have to be more open minded
Or it shows not to be bothered by jokes in a cartoon lol
Pillar, what's going on?
videos
Also called English Lightening?
Lots of cultures have deeply held traditions of arson for the insurance money.
Another brilliant video! Gj man
It was a really interesting video and I'm glad someone is discussing some of the problems with the show (I like it a lot but I'd be lying if I said there weren't some moments that made me uncomfortable and I'm not even Jewish).
Ps you can do edgy humour without being problematic. One of my good friends is a mix of a Jew of German descent (whose family fled Hitler's regime) and Italian descent (whose family fled Mussolini's regime). When Trumps was elected and we were all depressed, his response was: Hey, at least hopefully my future wife is fleeing the regime and will be joining me in Canada soon.
The worst part? It turned out to be true, he is now dating a Muslim girl who has a transgender sister (her family immigrated to protect her).
A self deprecating joke that I think could’ve been more interesting with her parents is calm instead of having her mom just be a stereotype and her dad being a money hungry asshole, maybe have them grill her over what she’s been up to, how her health is, yada-yada, and then ask if she’s lonely and if they should call a match-maker. She’d say no, she’s got a girlfriend and you could have them look down and be like “oh… a girlfriend”, you think maybe a joke about homophobia but nah, they say “not even a fiancé,” they’re just pushing her to get married but are still supportive. I dunno, just thinking of ways that might improve the jokes from harmfully stereotypical to actually self-deprecating
I think racial and homophobic humour is part of the show and playing up to stereotypes is always going to be a natural part of such an “edgy” show but I understand the frustration of how targeted this feels . Looks like Ye might be a writer for some of the episodes lmfao
I had no idea Harley Quinn was Jewish. Why did I not know Harley Quinn was Jewish?
Welcome to the club. Population, most non-Jews, it seems.
What I mean is that I've never heard of Harley Quinn being referred to as Jewish in any official capacity.
Wasn't Harley frozen in time or something on the Jewish Lightning scene?
Her body was unconscious, but she + the gang were watching Sy in real time.
Yeah this was basically what I heard from Jewish people about it. Just in a lot more detail. Nice video!
Isn't this show edgy though? I mean... Harley's parents try to kill her for God sake and I don't think that that has to do with them being Jewish... I mean that's ridiculous. Good video and interesting, but why this even needs to be talked about is funny to me.
I am Jewish and somehow made it through the whole show without picking up on any of this
Yeah the HP goblins are definitely the fault of the movie being live action, having short actors with prosthetics, and the decision to make goblins into Near Creatures with caucasian skin.
The problem could have been solved if they definitely were green. Goblins have been many things in fiction but it's only now cause of Harry Potter that everyone with a Twitter account things goblins as a concept are anti-semitic
... no? It's literally not.
Goblins being used as an anti-semitic slur goes back to like the 11th century.
Okay I have so many opinions. First off, want to say I totally respect your stance here, and really appreciate that you brought Adam on to share a Jewish perspective. While I disagree with a lot (some exceptions), I don't intend in any way to condescend or invalidate his experience. (Just saying that explicitly because I know tone can be hard over text-only.)
HARLEY IS JEWISH -- This is the main point I'll agree on, that this aspect completely absent from the show. In fact I'll go so far as to say that I strongly agree, because... I had no idea Harley was Jewish until right now. Like just completely didn't pick up on that.
HARLEY'S ACCENT -- I disagree with Adam's point here. I don't see the TAS accent as Jewish, but Brooklyn-ese. If you have a source on the original actress choosing the accent based on the character's Judaism then so be it, but I doubt this can be the case since her earliest appearances were as a background henchwoman and her backstory was all added later. I don't recall her being identified as Jewish at all in BTAS (like I said I didn't know she was Jewish until this video) but could be forgetting.
PENGUIN -- I love the Bar Mitzvah episode. Sorry... Like you say repeatedly, everyone in the show is terrible. I don't see Penguin's brand of evil as stemming from his Judaism, anymore than Bane's evil would from his Tom Hardy voice. It's just a gimmick they're playing up for more specific humor, and a Bar Mitzvah was a fun way of getting that across since it's a big party about a 13-year-old becoming a man. And it's so silly seeing all these huge important adult villains attending a child's overblown birthday party. If it had been like a wedding or something like that, it just would not have had the same effect. I also didn't find any of the jokes here particularly problematic.
SY BORGMAN -- I hear what you're saying, and I respect your take. I'm just not personally bothered by Jewish creators writing Jew-jokes to be delivered by a Jewish voice actor. Especially not when that voice actor is George Costanza. Maybe I'm projecting George onto the character just because of the actor, but I do see a lot of Seinfeld influence in how he's written and I enjoy that.
JEWISH LANDLORD -- I've honestly never heard this stereotype. The stereotype I think of is Greek or Russian landlords. But I can accept that it is a stereotype which I'm simply not familiar with (that happens). Is it okay if I'm not offended simply because I like the character?
JEWISH LIGHTNING -- Reference went over my head. I'm with Harley in wondering if it's Black Lightning's Israeli cousin (I like that second joke by the way because it also seems to poking fun at how black characters always have "black" in their name). Now that you've explained the joke, I can see why it's offensive.
HARLEY'S PARENTS -- Again I didn't realize they were Jewish... Honestly I didn't see them as Jewish stereotypes, I mean obviously since I didn't even realize they were Jewish. I just saw them as neurotic parents stereotypes, which is not exclusive to Jews. The Gentile part of my family is so much more neurotic and ridiculous than the Jewish part of my family. Also I disagree with them being revealed as "evil Jews" as problematic, because again every character in the show is evil. Heck even Batman is essentially an accidental supervillain. When your only representation of a "good" character is Batgirl, I think it's silly to consider every Jewish character bad representation. They don't need to add a "good" Jew to counterbalance the bad ones. Also this episode is super funny but also really heartbreaking and it's too sad for me to want it to be different. It's not trying to represent Jews, but to represent children whose parents are legitimately unforgivable, which is something I appreciate when so much of Hollywood (*cough* Black Widow *cough*) insists that family should always be forgiven no matter what.
JEWISH ACTORS -- Since I mentioned it with Sy Borgman and George Costanza (yes I know his name is Jason Alexander but he'll always be George Costanza to me), I'll mention that I don't really think Jewish characters NEED to be played by Jewish actors. It makes a difference in this case, simply because he is so clearly a Jewish stereotype with many many Jew-jokes. But no hate intended to Oscar Isaac or Michael Fassbender or Ian McKellan or whoever else. Just my opinion on that matter, I know others disagree.
PETER PARKER AS JEW-CODING -- I've heard this take many times before, and I honestly kind of hate it. The only argument I've ever understood is that he's neurotic, or maybe that he says "oy" in Bendis' run (something everyone says in Bendis' run). While neurosis is a common Jew stereotype, it's hardly exclusive to Jews. Watch any Martin Scorsese movie and you'll see plenty of neurosis, yet I've never heard anyone refer to these incredibly Catholic characters as Jew-coded. Now if someone adapted Peter as a Jew (I was unaware Spider-Verse PBP was Jewish) then I'd be fine with that -- it's not like Catholicism is essential to the character or anything. He does I think have Irish roots, based on naming conventions, but this is never really explored and frankly I myself have Irish roots so that is hardly a deal-breaker.
MENORAH AS JEW-CODING -- I don't recall the specifics of the scene in question, but I'll agree with you that this doesn't seem like it is actually establishing Harley as Jewish in any way. Really I just wanted to comment on the "Hannukah is an unimportant holiday therefore the menorah is ineffective as representation." Firstly, yes. That is accurate. It's not BAD to showcase Hannukah, just awkward as the main representation. Secondly, I would specify that the HANNUKAH menorah is the issue, as there is also a Shabbos menorah with only six candles instead of eight. The Shabbos menorah would be better representation. It's literally just two less arms.
FUTURE REPRESENTATION -- While I don't think it's necessary, I also would be happy if the show explicitly discussed Harley's Judaism, even if just in one episode. She's obviously non-practicing so it doesn't need to be a big point, but yeah it'd be nice to not have to learn she's Jewish from a TH-cam video.
PROPOSED FIXES TO PREVIOUS EPISODES -- i.e. "You give Jews a bad name!" While I wasn't offended by the previous Jew-jokes, I also like your fixes and think they would've been funny and positive additions. The show definitely plays into many stereotypes, but also frequently leans into socially aware humor with a ton of success, so these additions would've been perfectly in place and now feel like a missed opportunity since you bring them up.
JEWISH CREATORS AND SELF-DEPRECATING HUMOR -- I'm sorry but I'm on their side here. I think they can portray their own people however they want. I do understand why Adam finds it offensive and I believe that's valid, but I also don't believe the creators are acting in bad faith, even unintentionally. You make an interesting point that many of the stereotypes are ones historically imposed by Gentiles. I would counter-argue that it can be empowering and entertaining to reclaim and poke fun at such inaccurate stereotypes, which I believe they do successfully.
COMMENTING AS A GENTILE -- Like I said I really appreciate that you found a Jewish voice to join you and partake in the discussion. I can see why some would want you to back off, and admit it can be frustrating as a Jew being told by a gentile that I should be offended by something. However, I also see that you're doing thorough research and are not simply making assumptions. Your claims are backed up and obviously supported by at least some Jews. I don't see a problem here, especially not when you make it a point to include a Jewish voice in the discussion. I may disagree sometimes, but I do not represent all Jews anymore than Adam does, and my lack of finding offense does not invalidate those who do. I mean, you do seem a little obsessed with Jewish representation specifically in recent videos, and I'd be interested for you to branch to either types of representation. I also understand that it's an algorithm thing and you've gotta do what you gotta do on TH-cam.
So long as you continue to do your research, I appreciate that you're using your platform to amplify voices not your own.
i actually started thinking about marvel with the Jews relevance to the comics in mind, which is for example why i don't want marvel to change the origin story of magneto, even if they have to make him 200 years old
I'm pretty sure I know the answer subconsciously but What's the difference between Harley Quinn and Boondocks?
After I watched the first season I had no clue she was Jewish. Also I thought penguins nephew was Jewish and not penguin himself but I definitely could’ve missed something. Still if it’s interpreted as offensive by someone in that demographic then it’s not ok.
*Straws: Why are you ALWAYS grasping at us?*
Interesting video. Thanks for the research on the topic PoG!
First of all, great video. I understand why some of my friends and co-religionists are offended, but I wouldn't say the show is antisemitic. Am I the only one who sees the resemblance between Joshua Cobblepot and Jared Kushner? It really seems like they had a funny idea--What if Jared was the Penguin's nephew and became Harley's nemesis? And what if we get the kid who plays Adam Goldberg to voice him?--and they didn't think how it would play to non-Jewish audiences. It's a misanthropic show with nasty characters, but I have a tough time believing that it's a gateway drug for hard-core neo-Nazism.
Technically, that's a hanukkiah not a menorah.
I was already doubting myself, as they constantly referred to it as a menorah.
And they discussed Hanukkah so often but did not remark that it is a Hanukkiah
I'll give an important addition to the discussion. Like Adam, and many Jews in general, the connection to the Jewish people came to me later in life. It's so easy to pretend being Jewish doesn't matter when young and very much secular, but there's a cumulative effect over the years, where eventually the barrier between cultural antisemitism and the self can't be maintained anymore. No one wants to understand that bigotry is aimed towards them specifically in a way completely unrelated to self-image and actualization.
Anyways, there's a point that irks me. Saying to someone to "tone it down" or "making Jews look bad" deserves one retort: "why, so I can pretend to be one of 'the good ones'?". If a Christian child would have a bank-themed birthday party no one would bat an eye about their Christianity, and embracing stereotypes is one way where people deal with them by turning them into a choice rather than something forced upon them (a theme explored extensively in civil rights movements, and put front and center in the X-Men franchise). But a part of antisemitism is that the Jewish religion is brought up every time a Jewish person does something bad and is erased the moment they are good, and also if a Jewish person does something stereotypical they are brought up disproportionately (Ben Stiller is always brought up when talking about nepotism in Hollywood, despite most cases not being of Jewish actors). And through these lenses, a lot of Jewish people internalize bigotry.
So a lot of the motifs in the show can be understood as working through these issues, which is where I think they're coming from. I am not excusing it though, because as Adam said, yes, they absolutely have failed in representing anything Jewish as something more than one-dimensional and based on tropes. A lot of this could have been forgiven if it was given the context of Harley having an internal struggle with her Jewish identity. As Adam pointed out, her just mentioning that a different Jew leaning into a negative stereotype made her feel in any way uncomfortable would instantly add a ton of depth to it... but it feels like the writers are ashamed of the character being Jewish more than anything else. Which is another type of Jewish stereotype (the self-hating Jew).
When I saw your thumbnail I merely thought that the answer to your question was yes, simply because the show is very offensive. I do unfortunately agree that antisemitism is on the rise. For example Whoopi Goldberg literally said that the Holocaust doesn’t matter compared to the struggle of Black people and she literally just got a slap on the wrist.
the shows lead writers are jewish...
Technically Harley isn't Jewish in the comics, she just identifies as one because she grew up with her father's culture, which he is Jewish. The only ways to actually be Jewish is if your mother was Jewish prior to being you being born, or if you yourself convert. Since only her father is Jewish, and she didn't convert, Harley only follows Jewish culture.
But as for the show's concern, I do believe both her parents are Jewish, so you are correct on her being Jewish(besides the comics being used for example).
Would living within Judaism and living as a Jew not make her a convert?
@@Jane-oz7pp You have to officially convert to be a jew. You can be raised into the culture by family, but unless your mother is Jewish, you aren't actually Jewish until you convert.
Okay, I haven't seen this video (yet), I'm willing to give it a fair shot and even recognise the show's flaws.
It's not a perfect show but it's one of my faves and definitely my biggest comfort show. I just hope whatever's pointed out in this essay won't detract from my enjoyment of it much.
You're still going to enjoy because you're not Jewish you won't notice anything.
@@chilesai1117 exactly usually people don't care about things that don't directly offend them
I don’t know about anti-somatic. But it really annoyed me they just up and made both Harley and the Penguin Jewish for no reason.
I've known of Harley Quinn for a long time, and I've always quite liked her. She's popular, she's badass, and her looks are awesome. A few months ago I started watching this animated series, Harley Quinn. However, I did not know that she was Jewish until I watched this video, like many other commenters here.
I did not even know of Judaism until my 7th grade year (U.S.) and even then, with the way it was taught via story books and plays, I thought it wasn't a real religion. Only around my 10th grade year did I discover it being an actual religion. I was also never exposed to Jewish characters through media whatsoever (aside from the aforementioned storybooks and plays), despite me constantly consuming any media I could. The reason I'm saying this is because I think it goes to show just how important Jewish representation is, and how minimal it's actually done - and when it IS done, it's done terribly.
This is why Jewish representation is so important. If I had never learned about Judaism and it's history, and about anti-semitism, I would've been lead to believe that Jewish people are just lizard people who are rich and hoard money and burn down places, and well, to say the least, that's not a good thing. I understand that this series whole schtick is dark jokes and stuff, but they almost always explain why whatever is said is wrong and calling out that behavior, like that one scene in the beginning of this video with the Joker and Bethany. By not calling out the anti-semitism within the show, it's contributing to the harm.
I do agree with some of the Adam comments about the show but when he said that he is starting to reconnect with his religion and commenting about the show without fully understanding his religion makes his comments to me not that great.
I mean if I am listening to someone complaining about the show representation of their religion and they are not truly connected to it, it makes some of their comments not valid to me. Just wait and understand everything about your religion to fully give your valid comments about it without people like me commenting on him.