056 - Shelfington - Curved Incline Testing - Update

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 พ.ย. 2024
  • Welcome to Ian's N Gauge channel!
    In my previous video I showed how I'd tested different trains as they ascended the 3% gradient between the two running levels on Shelfington.
    I received some excellent feedback on the video, and in particular, I thought that Paul Smith asked a very interesting question.
    He wanted to know if any of the failed experiments would have succeeded if the loco had been pushing the train rather than pulling it.
    So, thanks Paul, in this short video I’m hopefully going to answer your question.
    Thanks very much for watching.
    Ian
    -
    If you've just got back into the hobby after a long break, then please let me know how you've found the experience.
    Alternatively, if you're an old hand at modelling in N gauge, then please impart your wisdom, and point me in the right direction, especially if you see me making a mistake or heading for disaster!!!

ความคิดเห็น • 34

  • @thegrowler-blackwoodngauge
    @thegrowler-blackwoodngauge ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Evening Ian (always look forward to your Thursday night video). We'll that was a neat little experiment tonight with the 03 being made to push the rolling stock. On the 2nd radius I could smell the motor and hear it screaming for mercy 😅. Then again there's nothing like a good damn thrashing ! Hope you're giving the 03 some tender loving care after all that pushing and shoving. Great video Ian !!

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว

      Morning Euan! Thank you! Yes, it was a bit uncomfortable listening to the motor scream and whine at times, so I'm going to give the little loco a rest for a few weeks - before the next good thrashing that is!!! Lol! All the best, Ian.

  • @exehavenharbour
    @exehavenharbour ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi Ian, I think I knew that after various testing on my old layout!!! (Can’t believe I’ve said that!) But what I also found some loco’s are better than others at either pushing or pulling. I’m not sure whether it’s down to types of motor’s, wheel arrangements or weight, but the pulling/pushing power always varies. There will be small gradients on Exehaven mk2 but with straighter and longer build ups.
    I think you might need a new motor in the poor 03 the way it’s being thrashed, lol! Great experiment and well put together as ever mate, cheers for now, John

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Hi John! I think the weight of the loco is the most significant factor! My class 08 weighs only 10g more than the 03, but can handle quite a few more wagons! My class 31 and 33 are about three times the weight and can pull or push every piece of rolling stock I possess! I think it works out at something like a loco can pull between three and four times its mass up a 3% curved incline! Ah, yes, the little 03 will get a little rest now - until the next devious experiment I can think of! Lol! All the best, Ian.

  • @valentinsn-ostalgiemodellbahn
    @valentinsn-ostalgiemodellbahn ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Very interesting experience, I have never thought about it. Thanks for the question (Paul) and giving us an answer (Ian).
    All the best
    Valentin

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว

      Thanks Valentin! I must admit that I'd assumed that pushing and pulling would give similar results - and thought that pushing may even be better! Cheers, Ian.

    • @valentinsn-ostalgiemodellbahn
      @valentinsn-ostalgiemodellbahn ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@iansngauge The same here.

  • @Elvenhome
    @Elvenhome ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Hmm, I am little intrigued that some think a different result might obtain if the loco was pushing rather than pulling. The issue fundamentally is that the downward force exerted by the loco is insufficient to maintain adhesion and overcome the inertia of the coaches. I am sure the motor has more than enough power and if the loco had a cast body it would do the job fine. A constant theme from continental modellers is that their locos, including steam locos, are much heavier and they perform well up quite steep gradients with long trains. Union Mills steam locos are famed for being able to pull almost anything up an incline and they have cast bodies. Stephen

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Hi Stephen! Yes, I totally agree! From my experiments I think it works out that a loco can pull / push between three and four times its mass up a 3% curved incline! I must admit though, that from a level standing start, I thought that the initial momentum gained by pushing the train on the run up to the incline may have given some advantage for traversing the curved incline, but obviously my A-level physics let me down! Lol! All the best, Ian.

    • @endoorrailway
      @endoorrailway ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@iansngauge Does it actually get a run-up? The moment the first carriage starts to go around and up the incline the gravitational and frictional resistance is transmitted through the whole train and back to the loco, so that might be why it's no better. Maybe!

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@endoorrailway - Hmm, yes, that's a good point Jonathan! However in one of the tests there was a definite long run up that fared worse than when the train was being pulled from a standing start at the bottom of the incline! Cheers, Ian.

    • @endoorrailway
      @endoorrailway ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@iansngauge Ah, yes I'd forgotten about that one. Yep, no theories for that!

  • @collinsngauge5493
    @collinsngauge5493 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi Ian yet more interesting thoughts and nicely put together. Colin

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว

      Thanks very much Colin! All the best, Ian.

  • @philbrown3685
    @philbrown3685 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi Ian, very interesting,if surprising, I too was expecting an improved performance 😮

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว

      Hi Phil! Most surprising indeed! I thought that the effective run up would definitely lead to an improved performance when pushing! All the best, Ian.

  • @PaulSmith-pl7fo
    @PaulSmith-pl7fo ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi Ian. Thanks for the shout out. I suspected this might be the result, but without any real reasons - just a gut feeling. Thanks for doing the experiment - any engineers/physicists out there with a theory as to why Ian got that result?

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว

      Hi Paul! No problem! I thought it made an interesting little experiment, so thank you for the suggestion! I must admit, I thought pushing would have been better than pulling, and certainly no worse! I should have paid more attention during physics lessons I guess! Lol! All the best, Ian.

  • @gwrbuckleyjunction1733
    @gwrbuckleyjunction1733 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Brilliant Ian very useful Information 4th radius it is then 👍

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว

      Thank you Sir! If you've got the space, then yes, I don't think you can go wrong with 4th radius curves or above! Cheers, Ian.

  • @peterjackson-cheadleheath1182
    @peterjackson-cheadleheath1182 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi Ian An interesting experiment, perhaps with mixed expectations, at least you have to results to compare. Thanks

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Thanks very much Peter! Yes, it was an interesting experiment to perform, even if it led to a quite surprising result - for me at least! All the best, Ian.

  • @clivengauge
    @clivengauge ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Very informative so pulling is better for the little one 👍

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว

      Thanks Clive! It certainly seems that pulling is better! Cheers, Ian.

  • @Wickford_N_Gauge
    @Wickford_N_Gauge ปีที่แล้ว +2

    "Paul's" are pushy 😱😝 Poor 03 🤒 I incline towards giving the little chap a little holiday after his exertions 🏖 Best wishes from the Emerald Isle ☘️

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว

      Haha! Morning Paul! Yes, I think I'd better give the poor 03 a rest for a few weeks after his recent exertions! All the best, Ian.

  • @endoorrailway
    @endoorrailway ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Hi Ian, I too find this interesting and perplexing! As far I as I can think, the motor is working against the same gravitational forces whether it's at the front or back, and the wheels on the loco have the same, or near enough, contact area with track either way. The only difference I can think of is that the couplings are in tension when pulling and in compression when pushing - if they're attached to the bogies on the coaches then that might make some kind of difference to the frictional forces on the wheels, or maybe the couplings themselves have more friction in compression on a curve? Thanks for showing the experiment :)

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Morning Jonathan! You've basically expressed my thoughts in writing here! It is quite perplexing why there should be such a difference in performance between pushing and pulling the train! It's a good point about the couplings being in compression, but I wouldn't think they would cause "that" much friction! I guess they could be pushing the bogies into the rails more, in the wrong direction I mean, but then wouldn't the same be true when pulling the coaches too? All the best, Ian.

    • @endoorrailway
      @endoorrailway ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@iansngauge It'll be on my mind for a while now (the same sometime happens when there's complex geometry on the Chandwell channel)! One new theory I have is that when pulling, the wheels are being pulled towards the direction that the train is heading in, which might help reduce the friction against the inner rail, whereas when pushing they're being pushed in more of a straight-on direction, which could cause higher friction against the outer rail. If that's a thing then it'll also apply on level track.

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@endoorrailway - Haha! Sorry about that! You may be onto something,there, but I'd have to check out if the same applied when pushing / pulling up straight inclines, which is something I'm not setup to do at the moment! All the best, Ian.

    • @endoorrailway
      @endoorrailway ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@iansngauge I'm not meaning to make up new tests for you to perform ;) If I were curious enough I should be able to test this on a level curve on Endoor - it just needs a loco with a heavy enough train that it struggles to pull it round the flat curve, then see if it can push it around the curve at all - I might give that a go at some point. Thanks, Jonathan

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@endoorrailway - Haha! I don't mind experimenting, as you know, but I need to get on and actually build Shelfington at some point! Lol! Great idea about trying it out on a flat curve on Endoor! I look forward to seeing the results! 😀 Cheers, Ian.

  • @barbelmeister
    @barbelmeister ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The Internet demand you conduct this experiment with a sound fitted Class 37 Growler. The more thrashing the more views 😉😁😁

    • @iansngauge
      @iansngauge  ปีที่แล้ว

      Haha! Yes, that would be a nice addition to my fleet, and would make a great video no doubt, although they look a bit pricey at £300 a pop! Cheers, Ian.