Review: Fifty-Four Fallible Furtwängler CDs
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ต.ค. 2021
- After all the Furtwängler reissues, containing every possible mixture of the conductor's live, studio, and broadcast material on dozens of labels, does anyone need this newly assembled and remastered collection of what purports to be his complete studio and "approved for release" live recordings (but isn't that exactly)? I would say no. That's the bottom line. Check out the video to understand why.
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Markevitch said that the greatest gift of Furtwangler was "to create an atmosphere in which he communicated a love of music." I think that about sums it up. Also there is this funny episode recorded by the musician Gregor Piatigorsky of Furtwangler pleading with the orchestra. "Gentlemen, this phrase must be - it must - it must - you know what I mean - please try it again - please." At intermission, well satisfied with himself, he proudly told Piatigorsky, "You see how important it is for a conductor to convey his wishes clearly?" (from Harold Schonberg: The Great Conductors)
That's a very nice comment.
Have read the very interesting autobiographical memoirs by Piatigorsky and do not remember this. Must have spread the word elsewhere... However, that sounds so much like the character !
The Audite Berlin RIAS box (1947-1954) has Furtwangler in more-or-less the best sound he ever got.
Most of what's in it is based on first-generation tape sources, not tapes-of-tapes-of-tapes
(or tapes-or-tapes-of-acetates), so nearly all of it sounds better than it has anywhere else...
The all-Schubert concert of September 1953 has never sounded so good.
The Beethoven Eroica and Brahms 'Haydn' Variations of June 1950, and the 5th & 6th from
May 1954 are in near-hi- fi. There were nights when Furtwangler was truly ON, and these are
some of them.
Indeed there were.
Yes, this is the only Furtwängler box that I have, and it's very fine.
Right after that atrocious Beethoven 5th on disc one (if you want to hear a string section that sounds like a church organ, this one’s for you) , comes a most fine 1929 recording of A Midsummer Night’s Dream that actually sounds like a dream. I have dozens of recordings of this piece and this version goes right to the top of the list. Which is why I will “keep on listening” to Furtwängler. He’s like the power hitter who swings for the fences, strikes out more than the more reliable guys, but when he gets hold of one, you don’t want to miss it.
Fair enough!
David, thanks so much for sitting through all of this, so that we don't have to. Here is a suggestion, coming straight from my own experience as an average Furtwängler listener - meaning that I have listened to some of it, though not too much of it, have liked some (e.g. some of the Bruckner and his Wagner Walküre & Tristan), and been frustrated by a lot of it, either for sonic or musical reasons, or both: What you are basically saying (perfectly reasonably, I think) is that getting this or any other Furtwängler box just isn't worth it unless you are planning to do a PhD on "Furtwängler's tunings, buzzers, and false starts". The way to go with Furtwängler, then, if you are receptive to his overall style and approach, would simply be to know what's really good and get those ten or twenty recordings individually. Would you be interested in doing a video of that kind? "The dozen or so Furtwängler recordings you should really consider getting"? I would certainly appreciate having your take on that issue, and I'm sure many others here would too.
I am considering it!
The rome radio ring cycle, the studio tristan, and the bayreuth beethoven 9th are the most iconic furtwangler performances. They are all wonderful with many hours of enjoyable greatness. I have loved them for 4 decades now. And they are available for free on youtube. Why spend all the money for disc's when the sound isn't that great anyway? Enjoy
@@alanhowe1455 if you don't want to sit at your computer, do what I do: get a bluetooth speaker pair it with your phone, pour your favorite beverage, make dinner and bask in the beauty. Or get a bluetooth attachment for your amp. I haven't done this yet..I plan on getting a wireless amp eventually...but I have so many cds I don't yet see the need for it. I like physical product. I also don't see what's wrong with free music on Amazon or TH-cam or whatnot. I've spent my share on music over the years. I don't want to pay to revisit my old horenstein LPS when I can get just as good on my kitchen bluetooth speaker.
I knew I had to buy this box for the first release of the Elegie (3rd movement) from Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings with the Vienna Philharmonic. His only recording of this music.
I have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and knew I couldn't live without it. But Warner offended my OCD by not placing it where it belongs: on CD 24 between movements 2 and 4 (it's on CD 54).
Aargh!
I think there's a pill for that now.
I’m no graphic designer, but wouldn’t you want to avoid red and black for the Furtwängler box? Just a thought.
Not according to Stendhal!
Hi David, just found your channel. Loved listening to Furtwängler for decades and I think your views are spot on. It’s becoming obvious that the labels are trying to cash in but isn’t it a good thing that Furtwängler’s art be more accessible? Anyways, not going to invest in the box sets, run out of cash! Thank god for Apple Music or even better Qobuz. Again thanks for a great video and your commitment to the music.
Once more, David presents us with a no-nonsense, extremely lucid, professional review about a sometimes great, rather variable conductor, whose mythification by the classical music community has done him no favours, judging by some of the reactions in this comments section.
One reason for the greatness legend may be that for many who listened during the war years (live and broadcast) felt a sense of doom, and that this could be the last time they ever would hear Beethoven 3, Brahms 4, Schubert 8, etc.
Apart from the problem of too many issues and re-issues, there is the problem that some very good recordings are no longer available. I am fortunate enough to have his March 1954 recording of his own Second Symphony (a masterpiece, as you say) with the Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra on Mediaphon. It's in very good mono, much better than the 1953 Orfeo recording, but the last I heard, it was no longer available. Barenboim's modern stereo recording is a very acceptable substitute, but surely the 1954 performance deserves to be re-issued.
You really put so much here into proper perspective.
For some reason, I'm beginning to suspect that you may not be very fond of Furtwängler.
So?
Many Furtwangler box sets out there! Is there one you could see yourself listening to, if only for select recordings that capture a performance you find listenable? Btw: really enjoying “Getting the most out of Mozart”-kudos for writing a great primer!
I don't think there is one David would really approve of since there is the wheat from the chaff problem with any big box Furtwangler set (and I'm a fan!!). I would love to see him create a David Hurwitz approved Furtwangler box video so I could learn about some great performances that maybe I'm not aware of.
This is a knee-slapping, hilariously good review of Furtwaengler, a conductor I very much admire for performances of select repertoire by Wagner, Beethoven and Bruckner. Indeed, your criticisms on Furtwaengler's general sloppiness and poor recorded sound quality are rather spot on. You do point out Furtwaengler's good points, such as some good Brahms and Wagner performances. One of my very favorite recordings of all time is Furtwaengler's Beethoven Violin Concerto with Erich Roehn as soloist. And, yeah, Furtwaengler is pretty humorless in Haydn. The Strauss symphonic poems are very sloppy (I remember a French hornist giving Furtwaengler's "Til Eulenspiegel" a B- for overall performance grade). Anyway, you present here a hilariously good and accurate review of a conductor whose performances I nonetheless love for certain composers (in spite of all the obvious shortcomings that you've noted). Notably, Daniel Barenboim has asserted how he was positively influenced be Furtwaengler's recorded performances.
Occasionally I think should purchase one of the Fortwangler collections, then I listen to another of your thoughtful reviews. The combination of old & dim recordings and your largely negative comments about the performances always stop me. ( EDIT: I just found your “Best of FW video”) That said, I heartly endorse the notion of a top ten discs that show FW at his best! It seems there are at least a few performances that I would appreciate and enjoy. Meanwhile, I’ll get some more of those wonderful Dvoark Supraphon boxes.
Thanks as always.
4'38" of tuning/ambience/buzzers? Could this possibly be a previously unknown Furtwängler recording of John Cage?
It's the original version with buzzers.Cage thought it was too expressionistic and re-scored it without buzzers and tuning. Plus, last but not least, it was 5 seconds too long.
@@davidbo8400 Due to Furti's heavy and slow conducting
Gazunta Monstrosity is my new favorite descriptor. Thank You Dave!!
I think it would be a good idea to make a box about the Berliner Phil recordings with the other directors other than the Holy Trinity Furtwangler, Karajan, Abbado. A box with the existing Berliner recordings of Celibidache, Leo Borchard and Arthur Nikisch.
Agree with this. We need an edition of WF’s “greatest” recordings instead of this obsession with offering the “complete” recordings - when at least half are inferior to other recordings of the same repertoire by less-famed conductors.
I can only agree with you and thanks for letting me now how good Riccardo Muti is! I hope one day you can make a video about Weinberg , i am discovering this composer and he is really great from my point of view. Frau Blucher!!!
I listened to the Presto podcast where you also critiqued this box. I was afraid you would pull back on your true feelings on Furtwangler's lack of quality. I'm happy to say you didn't hold back. Paul Thomas and Rob Cowan are now mostly scar tissue...it was actually a fun give and take by all of you.
If Mr. Hurwitz's collection of Furtwängler discs is an indication of anything, it is that he is a serious critic.
David, thanks so much for this enlightening, entertaining, and laughter-inducing talk. When this set was announced, I was all cock-a-hoop but, at the same time, on the fence about whether I should purchase it. I've always been a Furtwangler enthusiast (within reason), and for a long time sought out the holy grail, if you will, of emotionally and spiritually (if not sonically and executionally [sic]) "perfect" Furtwangler recordings. Now, although I disagree with some of your opinions (though not in a disagreeable way), I do see your point about the (probably) ultimate fruitlessness of such a quest. I also do quite agree that, when the sound is dim and the performance not terribly precise, what one actually hears doesn't tell the whole story--the listener's mind and imagination fill in the blanks, and we "hear" what we want to hear. Yet, at least for me, that doesn't diminish the enjoyment; indeed, it's part of the gestalt of the experience. But I'm a bit of an eccentric anyway.
The bottom line is that, after going back and forth on this, I decided not to purchase this box. (For the time being, at least.) Despite whatever sonic improvements this set might exhibit, I'm content with the Furtwangler recordings I already own (the previous, fairly recent EMI/Warner Beethoven and Brahms boxes, ditto the Music & Arts boxes of some of F's concert performances of the same music, plus a large handful of single discs on cheapo labels of dubious provenance). Besides, there's a limit to one's temporal and financial resources, and Ormandy awaits.
~ John Drexel
I'm all for your Gestalt! Thank you for the sane reaction. How refreshing!
Box?. Shelf? I know nothing about music but that I love. Much of that is classical. You show me a box, it reminded me of your 'Shelf' rant. What is the difference please? In your shelf rant, which I loved despite not getting the whole thing ie: the item described as a 'Shelf'. The box I can see. Thankyou.
2:11 Now that's what I imaged in my mind.😀 as being a shelf, but there you are calling that a box. A big MF-ing box, but not a Shelf.
A shelf is a piece of furniture you put the box(es) on. The Toscanini Edition came in its own shelf.
@@DavesClassicalGuide That's what threw me, It's very own shelf? Excuse the troll talk, but lo effing l. Thankyou for the clarification. I'm stealing your knowledge to find more music I can like. We are a big fan.
Thaks for this. hopefully the Jappanees wil releas the Knappertsbusch bayreuth recording & the rest of his legacy i.e. beethoven brahms Bruckner
I'm confused, this is a Warner box, but does it also contain ALL of the DG studio stuff?
Yes.
Furt wanted the 53 Ring released??? But he already had plans to record it with the Vienna Phil and actually started it the next year
Right. That is what I read too. And hearing the result issued by EMI, one understands why. This is one the most disappointing experiences I made as a hardcore oldies collector of both Wagner and Furtwängler. The orchestral playing is so crappy one has a hard time trying to enjoy what is actually good in these perfomances (Mödl, and Suthaus, namely). I do not share all the views expressed here by David Hurwitz. But this Ring would have been quite appropriate to make his point. All the more since other extant recordings attest that the Rome RAI orchestra could play very well sophisticated music at that very time : superb Pelléas under Karajan, and a stunning Rosenkavalier conducted by Rodzinski. Those maestros were certainly better suited as orchestra trainers than W. Furtwängler.
To your point, if I select at random a disc by Markevitch, or Szell, or Martinon, or Bruno Walter, etc. etc., I am very likely to hear a well-executed performance, while with Furtwangler, it's a much lower percentage of high-quality performances- whatever the underlying reasons. I still love some of his well-known recordings such as the NDR Brahms 1st and his Wagner generally, but the big boxes are probably not the way to go with WF.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
Thank you for saving me a lot of money! I'll listen to Furtwängler in TH-cam instead, if I ever have the time or desire to.
That's an excellent idea.
Wait for "The Complete Herbert von Karajan on Record" - 950cds!
You would need a truck to transport HVK's recorded legacy.
@@hmhparis1904 LMAOOO
I thought for a moment you were going to start weightlifting when you brought out the large Japanese box. 😂😂
I was tempted.
I loved your back and forth with Rob Cowan on Presto. Most of what you say here I'm in agreement with though the greatest Sieglinde of all time is Lotte Lehmann with Walter.
German conductors like WF and Kna never get the Pastoral Symphony. The very greatest ones are non-Germans like Toscanini and Monteux. IMO.
EMI also recorded live Gotterdammerung excerpts in the 30s with Beecham and Frida Leider. Head to head, in Act 2, I actually find Beecham more exciting and thrilling than Furtwangler.
Rysanek was a famous and impassioned Sieglinde but the lower octave so important to the role was hardly her strong point - she sings the first act of the 54 Walkure really wretchedly with a jumbled unsteady tone. To hear the deal go to Lehmann or Crespin
@@jaykauffman4775 I like Crespin. Rysanek did better later.
Hi David---was the pope Ratzinger? That would explain it.
Nope. The current one.
As a novice I have been enjoying this box set, but I must say it's very difficult to open and close the box itself. This has nothing to do with the contents but it's still really annoying!
Shit à la mode is better than shit.
That explains it!
Didn't beethoven tell a critic "my shit is better than anything you've ever done". Good burn Louis!
@@garysikon1812 Yes, about Wellington's Victory.
David, if you ever want to unburden yourself of all that Furtie excess please let me know. Happy to help! PS -- Seriously, you have too many CDs. You should open up a store and sell them to obsessed music lovers whose mouths water at the mere sight of the many (and rare) box sets you show off on TH-cam. :D
These discussions about "boxes" reinforce my decades of disdain for them. As you wisely advised one of the other commenters, it's better to seek out notably good performances than to get a huge "box" that usually contains too much chaff and not enough wheat.
The only disc I want to listen to in this new Warner set, is cd 54. The rest I already have listen to it, maybe in poorer sound. but I do not care. But for now I used my money on Markevitch DGG et Decca new boxsets.,
What is the greatest Furtwangler's recording? For me the War time Beethoven 5th catch me up. And Brahms 3rd. And Beethoven 9th from LUcerne on Audite. Tahra, Audite, and the FRench Furtwangler Society has given the best remasterings. And Olympics Records,has given the worst ones. DGG and Emi or Warner are so so. But I guess there is exceptions. And all the Breitklang artificial stereos are terribles.
I don't think that's a realistic question. There is no consensus, and it depends on what you like. It's all subjective.
Noting the higher ratio of dislikes this morning 🤔
The truth hurts sometimes.
I am not a fan of Furtwangler. When I was a poor student many years ago, I did get a handful of CDs from those second-hand CD stores. Never like them and was always wondering why he is so famous. Now I'd want to give it another shot to see if my taste have changed when I get older. I'd want to buy 1 Furtwangler box, which one would you suggest?
I wouldn't. As some others here have suggested, you should try to hear individual performances--the Lucerne Festival Beethoven 9th, the NDR Brahms 1st, and the good ones mentioned in the video.
OMG! All those boxes. That’s WAY too much Furtwangler.
Thanks for such an honest assessment. I like a number of Furtwangler's performances but this ENDLESS re-cycling of every shred and scrap is ludicrous. Good lord. Move on. There are many boxes of other deserving artists that could be produced instead. I am a newcomer to your site but wonder if you have already or if not would consider reviewing the boxes of Pierre Monteux performances that have been compiled. When I first began exploring classical music more than 60 years ago many of his recordings were my initial exposure to the great works. An elegant and wide ranging artist and historically important. Thanks for all you do to broaden understanding and appreciation of the great and NEW music!
444 now that's a box, I stopped video and listen to Bee's 9th with his name in the tittle. I'll find a better one..
I tried the 5th, (who could f up the 5th?) Yeah, good tip, I'll listen to more. Thankyou.
Love the Furtwaengler vs R.Straus comparison. On target! And Strauss wins (even as a conductor)
1:22 😀😀😀 Don't know why you're not a huge star. Very funny man.
Who says he's not?
@@tom6693 not you and me.
I suppose we should be glad that WF never did Ravel's Boléro...
It's bad enough that he did the Rapsodie Espagnole.
with old fuzzy recordings its easier to keep myths alive