So not only does the UTG player not get kicked off the table but the guy with the nuts gets a warning for acting out of turn!?!?! I don't think I'd be playing in that room again any time soon.
I think the guy who went ‘all in’ should’ve forfeited his own stack And to clarify what I mean is, the jerk who said all in Not the big blind obviously
The learning point is this. Large pots don’t come up too often, and errors in big pots are very costly. Recognize when you are in a big pot and take extra care of the details.
I'm confused about why we don't think the casino owes him the difference. The dealer is an agent of the casino, and the dealer's instruction is what caused hero to act. I definitely get that it's wise to double check before calling (let alone turning over your hand), but I don't see how that changes the dealer's own responsibility, in the casino's name, to double check the action before issuing a costly false instruction.
That's an unreasonable standard to uphold though. Think of how many hands are dealt a day, and the number of idiots like this UTG player that can cause potentially cause confusion. Casinos already hate poker (low earnings), and think of what the rake would be if they were liable for this kind of thing. There's always going to be an element of random error when it comes to live play.
I don't play much live in casino, so I'm with you. Specifically: Dealer hears BB say All In, Dealer tosses All In puck into pot & tells Hero "it's on you, he's all in", Hero says Call and shows hand. At that moment hand is over winner gets pot. If I'm hero, I'm taking my pot, including BB's chips represented by the All In puck. So if we then learn that UTG & BB & Dealer engaged in some zanieness, why do their mistakes get resolved by taking my (Hero) money away from me? Maybe UTG repays BB for fucking with him on his turn. Certainly the house won't pay for Dealer's mistake, but why is it Hero who must pay? I guess I'll just take the final advice, take a min to see that the guy physically does something, like push in chips or muck his cards, before I act because words and dealer actions are meaningless.
@@benwengert8725 lol, did you listen to the video. Player kept track of the action, and was instructed by the dealer to make a decision. dealer, thus the casino is at fault here and should pay player the difference.
He could have been looking down, thinking, could have thought no one would seriously consider someone else saying all in as him saying it. Multiple reasons, especially if it happened quickly
I normally do not post on these vids but this one (and some of Bart's other videos with clear cheating) have me feeling very sad. While I agree it is very difficult to rectify this unfortunate situation, I wanted to highlight a few of my perspectives and make I proposition on what I think should happen here (Apologies for long post): 1) While the caller (D) did not do anything wrong here, as it is the dealer's responsibility to track the action accurately so that the "All-In" button represents official action, he could have protected himself better. I would much rather get some crap from other members at the table for taking 10-15 seconds longer than I should have than put myself at any risk of having my equity in the pot compromised my factors outside of gameplay. From a win rate perspective this is a total disaster for the button, so in this spot unless I knew with 100% certainty that BB said "All-In" I would ask him/her to confirm that they moved all in. I will do this whether I have the nuts, a hand with marginal showdown or a hand with no showdown value that I would consider bluffing with if checked to 2) Obviously the dealer did screw up here, and while I am 100% behind supporting dealers and do not think there should be any monetary punishment for failing to accurately track action, the floor needs to be alerted to the fact that the dealer made a mistake and take some action to try to ensure that the dealer understands the gravity of the mistake and works towards limiting the likelihood this happens again in the future. 3) Depending on how long the All In Button was out there and where it was thrown the villain (BB) may or may not be at fault here. It is possible that it was in a spot that wasn't clearly in front of him and he may have thought the caller (D) moved in out of turn, but given that the caller was in seat 10 and on the button, villain would be in seat 2 so I find this somewhat unlikely. From the call, it sounds like the button snap acted, so I'd lean towards absolving the BB of blame (although if the button had been out there for 10-15 seconds I'd change this opinion) 4) UTG is a total clown that personifies all of the sleaziness that some people associate with gambling/playing poker. There ABSOLUTELY needs to be a severe punishment for all instances where a player influences action whether the intention was to or just make a sick joke that didn't have any impact as he claims. There are so many well-intention-ed players that play this game for a variety of noble reasons (fun, profit, enjoyment of strategy etc.), but players who angle-shoot, influence action, or attempt to gain an unfair advantage in any way drag everyone who is part of the community through the mud and encourages players who are victimized by stories such as these to quit. We can take steps to restoring poker's image by dealing with people who attempt to cheat or harm other player's EV in a serious manner. Without this type of punishment, what is to stop UTG from attempting this type of "joke" again that hurts someone else's EV. *If I was floor manager, I would have given UTG a choice from a one-month ban from the casino or the option to pay off BB's effective stack to the button since his "joke" denied the button an opportunity to pick off a bluff from the BB* (to be clear what BB's hole-cards are is irrelevant if he had the K high flush the same logic of denying the BB the opportunity to value jam would still apply)
In an ideal world the casino would pay off the bet since their employee (the dealer) did not fulfill his/her responsibility to the game, but we don't live in an ideal world, so some type of action as outlined in #2 will have to do IMO. These are just my opinions presented respectfully, so if anyone who agrees/disagrees posts in a respectful way I am all for that
Great post. However, the problem is that with the nuts, if you give the other player any chance to take back the all-in, you're losing value. The fact that you do the same without the nuts doesn't matter - there's no balancing here.
regardless, the casino should compensate for the dealer making the error, period. if the dealer makes mistakes often, then fire him/her, its that simple.
Good advice from Bart. Slow down before tabling your hand. I’ve been in similar situations and I’ve made it a habit to confirm a player is all in before calling with nuttish hands. I’ll ask the dealer “is he all in?” or I’ll ask the player “are you all in?”
I once had someone say all in after I flopped a set of eights, and snap called him. He pleaded his case saying he said, he’s all this in. And was pointing at a min bet raise. It was ruled in my favor and I stacked the dude.
Dear poker players, when crap like this happens please get the name of the floor who made the ruling and drag their ass through the mud. The fact UTG doesn’t get the boot and this guy got the warning for acting out of turn warrants the floor being fired for incompetence. This must stop happening and won’t until we do something about it
I've seen something like this happen twice; 1. On the river, a player starts to stack his chips together, and then starts to push them forward. Other player immediately calls the all in motion, and turns over his hand. The angle shooting player then states "I haven't acted or said anything " The floor was called over and ruled since there was forward movement of the stacks of chips, those chips were in play. House rule was any forward movement was a bet. The angle shooter was force to put those chips into the pot. Because this was the house rules at the time, I always counted out chips behind my cards 1st. 2. Same casino, but rules have changed and either player must say all in, or move all chips into pot and release. Dealer thinks a player has moved all in and released chips, puts out the button, and announcers All In, 2nd player snap calls, throwing out one chip and turns over his hand. Dealer then sees 1st player still has 2 black $100 chips back. Floor called and ruled that only the chips released where in the pot. I've learned to always confirm with the dealer what the action is, no matter where I'm playing. I agree, the person whom said All In should be removed from the table or the room for at least that day, or week, unless there have been other issues. I've even seen a player forced to pay for a set up, when he tore his 2 cards in half when I slow played a flopped set on him to the river and busted his aces.
Honestly I would be a bit concerned if the two were colluding and would have watched them for other tells that were or weren't. People like to believe it's a rare thing but it happens a lot. When I first started. I played at a casino where they allowed a husband and wife to play at the same table almost every time. It was often obvious that they colluded naturally do to being husband and wife.
These stories are nuts I play in Detroit and we dont even have this nonsense going on. Everything in Detroit is fucked up but we manage to play poker properly. I NEVER turn my hand over before the money is in. I learned poker playing with pure degenerates so i'm always on guard. If other people think you are slow rolling; fuck them.
This is why I always say " did you say you were all in? ". This Annoys people when I show them the nuts ultimately but F them. You NEED to protect your hand and your interests.
i think the BB is sneaky !! if dealer toss an all in button in front of me b4 i get to act. i will insta halt the action and asked the dealer what's going on.
I don't know how common this is in other casinos, but I did once see a guy who said he was all in as a joke (he too wasn't even in the hand), the dealer called a floor over, and the floor forced him to be all in with no hole cards (he was basically all in playing the board). In that case this dumb "joke" didn't actually affect the hand, since everyone at the table noticed that the guy who said it wasn't in the hand, so I thought it was kind of harsh. In the case of this caller, however, I would 100% get behind forcing the joker UTG to actually shove his stack into the pot.
That kind of ruling would have to depend on the board though. What if it came out KQQQQ, or a straight flush, and the joker who already folded pre-flop now shouts "I am all in!"?
I thought about that. Waiting a bit before saying call. But then it looks like ur slow rolling them. The exact reason people insta call is to not slow roll and make it seem like they have an actual decision.
Saw something similar happen to a buddy of mine. Villain had hidden 1k chips in the middle of stack. Now I always, always ask for a dealer count when jammed on. This could've saved Hero here too.
LOL RIGHT AS I READ YOUR COMMENT THEY MENTIONED HIM AT THE END. god thats crazy. literally "Ditto" my brain reading your comment and bart said his name at the exact same time
I was playing at the LV Golden Nugget new year and i had $450 in chips and $500 cash behind my chips (cash plays at GN). i started the hand with 77 and my opponent ,just sat down and bought for $1k, had 99. The flop came 2 7 9. We both flopped sets. Turn was a blank and river was a 7 giving me quad. He raised and then i went all in and he snapped called with his full house. As the dealer started counting my chips & cash the player went ballistic claiming that he didn't see the cash and had he seen the cash he would've folded. He demanded to view security camera accusing me of adding the cash bills. Players at the table start telling the player that i had been sitting at the table for hours with my 5 big $bills behind. He insisted the floor check the cameras and 45 minuted later when manger came and told him everything was fine he threw the chair and left.
We stopped doing cash behind at my casino, because people were adding money inbetween hands. Reality is, you can really deceive how much money you have in $100’s quickly. What happened at my home casino was that people were adding money behind their chips and not announcing. So one hand they may have $1500 and the next hand they have $2500. It’s been long overdue to make it to where only chips are in play and no cash. Players can always pull chips out of their pocket, but that always seemed less likely than cash.
So, what do you do when someone just says all in and sits there not moving their chips or they just put in a few chips and sit there? Do you ask them to put their chips in before calling?
@@lookdonttouchx Ask for a chip count b4 calling. Then it forces the dealer and player to push chips forward for the dealer to do a count. Then floor can rule forward action or that chips were pushed over the limit line.
@@awash33988 yes. Always asking for a count is the best. Although some occasions this wont ring true. I'm not a douche and would obviously pay up but I was in seat 1 yesterday and check jammed turn. Kid asked for count and dealer counted it right out in front of me but didnt move it forward. Probably because of the seat i was in. AS guy was tanking though I pushed them forward.
I feel like the floor could have done better. If the caller isn't entitled to his $800 for whatever reason then fine. But casinos give out comps all the time. So kick the dude out who said all in and, as a gesture of good faith, comp the button free dinner or a room for a night or a buy in for an upcoming tournament. Not a perfect or even fair solution....but at the very least it's professional and acknowledges that the button got screwed.
Because of the dealers mistake, casino should pay back to BB that last bet and give the whole all-in pot to button. Clear mistake by the dealer, I would never play again on that place, if the house isn't responsible. Utg out yeah, but not good enough, dealer made a mistake.
Totally not this guy's fault. However, the lesson being taught here is 100% correct. ALWAYS wait to call until you see the opponents bet go into the pot. Ask for a count if no one is forcing it. You will never run into this or any other situation like it again. Yes people may think you're slow rolling, but you can defend your reasoning well enough.
Also to the point about forcing a player to put chips in the pot...The casino is allowed to force the player who said all in (even though they don't have cards) to pay the bet. If the player refuses, they can ban the player indefinitely until the debt is paid. It would be an unusual ruling, but it has been ruled that way in poker before and that ruling does prevent these situations from happening.
I won't say the name of the casino but there was a person who literally stole a stack of poker chips from another player while he was away from the table and this casino has at least 3 armed police officers at one time and he was stopped and arrested and the chips were returned to the player who was away from the table. I've never seen a player at a table owe another player money and walk away without paying but I can imagine that the armed police officers would've stopped him/her and dealt with the situation accordingly.
I heard you say that fast playing can work wonders a few years ago. The next week I did exactly that. No one believed I actually had a flush, since I was betting. Worked wonders. And I always keep it in mind. Thanks
This is why I A.) Always clarify bets, the action and the amount. Especially with an all-in- Please count the entire stack B.) I always have the dealer make the pot right before show down.
I watched something similar happen in a home game one time. Unless I am literally looking at the person to act and witness him say all-in, I always will turn to that person and ask him if he said all-in if I only "hear" all-in, even if the dealer states it to me.
There was a tourney where a player mucked his hand, pot got given to the winner and then he said 'all in' as a joke. Dealer took his call and he was knocked out. The utg player here should've lost his chips.
This sucks, if there were justice then the utg should have his chips put in but that just doesn't work. Really the dealer fucked up and the liability for not properly tracking the action is on the casino but no chance they'd ever admit fault. Pure BS through and through
In my Opinion there would only be one fair way to solve this Situation: We have to first figure out, who's to blame for this Situation... I think we can all agree that UTG is the main Player to blame... But there is also some Fault on the Dealer/ BB Side. BB for not reacting faster, when he saw that All-In puck to wander into the Middle and the Dealer for setting him all-in and not double checking... The Hand should run out as an All-In and Hero wins the whole Pot. The All-In Bet on the River (those 500$) have to be splitted between those 3 Parties... Where the House has to pay around 5% and BB has to pay 5% of the Money and UTG has to pay the other 90%... In my Mind that would have been one of the only fair Solutions to this Situation.
My friend who’s been a floor his whole life had this happened in the room where he worked and was flooring and he made the guy who wasn’t in the hand that said all in pay that amount.
With all ins, I always confirm the action especially if I can’t see them. Also by waiting for the better(supposed better) to show first, isn’t slow rolling. It’s your right and now you can make sure he acted and you get to see his hand.
Casino also has some blame. The dealer should have made sure the action was from the correct player in the pot...then stating that the player in the pot declared all In. Put in the all in button...therefore the dealer/slash casino has said to u that the player in The pot said all in....therefore they are running the game and saying player said All in... To bad for the casino....there fck up they pay. Also player saying shit during hand he not in. Getting a beat down
Screw that casino. They don't deserve your timer or your money. I play a lot of poker at Bicycle in LA. One thing I can't stand is when the casino agrees or doesn't punish unprofessionalism like that. Either by the Dealer or the Player. You always wait for an opponent to show his cards in a big pot like that too. Too much at stake.
Hey man I mean that’s how it goes. I’m not mad at that. You want to act like a fool at another’s expense you can pay what you just cost him or get the shit kicked out of you. That’s life.
In the situation where the guy misstated his hand and the other guy mucked, almost everyone waits till they SEE the actual guys hand for that exact reason. Before mucking ur hand. U don’t have to turn ur hand over but at least wait till u KNOW ur beat for sure.
I was at a table where someone (MGM Springfield, Ma) tossed $1.00 chip in called all in, to a 60.00 all in, then lose the hand and take his chips and walk out. He was a regular and has been banned, but stupid people do stupid things.
Some of the worst poker I have ever played has been in Canada. Lots of shady stuff like this going on. Wouldn't be surprised if they knew each other and they angle shot you..
Here's a free tip: The better you behave, the better reactions you will get from other people. So if there is any sort of ruling needed, do not be the guy who is shouting and making everyone stressed, be the cool guy and just tell what happened.
Some are commenting that you should confirm a player is all in before acting. This may sound good on the surface but it's not feasible in the long run. You can't be pausing with the nuts every time someone shoves to make sure they're all in. For one, you might give something away, and also you can become exploitable in that you always confirm bets at the end with the nuts. The best way to combat this is simply to be focused on the action at all times while in the pot. If you're heads up, be watching your opponent when it is their turn to act (which you should be doing anyway). One thing I want to add that makes this ethical breach so bad is that let's take a look at the caller's perspective when he doesn't have the nuts. Let's say he has a medium strength hand that still happens to be good. UTG announces all in and hero mucks. Now BB is privy to extremely profitable information. That action costs the hero a lot of money regardless of his holdings. There actually is a way to balance the average "cost" to the hero with this action, in the long run, and applying this to the UTG in the form of a fine. I know this would never happen, but it would be nice.
Casino should pay off the all in bet, because the dealer put in the all in chip and didn’t look at the player actually in the hand. 800 is not much for a casino but a very large bet for a player.
Hero asked dealer about weather bb was all in and all in disc was thrown. Why didnt bb mention he wasnt the one to say “all in” during that time? Doesnt seem hero snap called. Bb should be getting thrown out too. bb and utg could be colluding/angling whereas utg says all in to hopefully induce action from hero and get to freeroll the pot. Also if dealer confirms a player is all in and throws all in disc why should hero pay for that mistake when holding the nuts. Shouldnt dealer be asked to make up for the all in amount? or at least part of it?
The opponent not saying something about the all-in puck being thrown in is a sanction of the all-in, meaning that it is effectively the same as him saying all-in. It is incumbent on every player in the hand to be aware of what is happening on the table and in the hand. If he didn’t say “wait, I didn’t say anything” when the all-in puck is thrown in, he failed in his vigilance, likely to see the reaction of the hero. He absolutely did do something wrong.
Agree with bart if not 3 bet pot def fast play it already on the flop, could even be good in this spot since the 3b guy should have 1010-AA or AK sometimes with K spade.
Sadly, this seems to be a common thing amongst amateurs. The amount of times I’ve seen an amateur do some variation of this is ridiculous. And they *_always_* think it’s hilarious…
The player who called all-in should have his chips added to the pot. The fact that he had previously folded was irrelevant...he was playing. He should also be banned.
Funny that poker players might only get involved in a hand 20% of the time and can switch off once they've mucked their hand but can't comprehend that a dealer never gets to switch off. Dealer hears "all in" from the direction of the blind and understandably moves on. If you can't keep up with the action when you're heads up in a decent sized pot, holding the nuts, then maybe time to head back to the black jack tables.
Exactly. I agree. Keeping your head down, hood on, headphones in, not trying to give any "Information" away, I personally find hilarious. Whenever I'm In a big pot heads up and the action is on my opponent, you better believe I am keeping my eye on him one way or another.
While the dealer is an agent of the casino, ultimately players are responsible for their own actions. The UTG needs to be banned, per casino policy. If that's not their policy, you may want to find another casino. The dealer should also be reprimanded, as his actions poorly represented the casino. And sadly, the hero needs to take responsibility for not following the action properly. Attempts to stay under the radar and hide tells do not relieve the responsibility of the player to know for themselves what action is taking place. While the dealer turning to him, may have certainly given him the impression it was his action, had he been paying attention himself, he would have known the villian had yet to act.
It's so funny because I've played 2-5 in Montreal and a guy would do this every second hand when he wasn't in the pot. I'm wondering if it's the same guy
Personally I do think the casino should be liable for dealer errors. If a dealer tells you the other player is all in and this unfolds I do think the casino should be on the hook for the opponents stack size
I'd be pissed at the opponent almost more than the idiot who said all in. He hears the other player say "all in." He hears the dealer prompt you to act. He nevertheless says nothing. It may not have been an intentional angle or one he created, but it's certainly an angle of omission that he was knowingly and happily taking advantage of. There may not be any requirement for him to clarify the situation, but it was nevertheless the ethical thing to do. He got to see that you have the goods while knowing the all in wasn't binding.
Look, the all-in puck went in, the dealer accepted the all-in bet, so that bet should be live, and someone has to pay it. Of course, it should not be the player who didn't act, so it should be the casino. This called is owed that bet from the casino, quite clearly. I don't even think that's controversial. This would be far more controversial if the caller didn't have the nuts and this caused him to fold a winning hand. I also think there might be an angle here where the guy didn't immediately react to the all-in statement, the puck going in, or the dealer prompting the caller but instead only spoke up when the all-in was called. Maybe he was in his own world a bit but maybe he was hoping for the caller here to fold without risking his stack.
Yeah that dude was probably drunk and thought it was hilarious to fuck with the hand on an impulse. Some recs dont realize that even talking in a hand might get you punched in the mouth lmao. I would ask if i could take the pot with no river bet since he still had the absolute nuts. And yeah I would have reamed UTG and even if the floor doesnt kick him, im making sure hes not playing at that table.
I don’t buy this story. If I’m tanking for a minute and the guy next to me says “All in” and the dealer tosses me the “puck” I’m immediately freaking out saying “whoa I didn’t say anything” and I think everyone else would do the same thing. Like if the caller says he heard it and immediately flipped and called, that’s more believable. But the caller said the dealer turned to him, after tossing the puck, and said “it’s on you.” That’s far more than enough time for the guy to say “hey I’m not all in!” Also, just out of curiosity, why was that guy tanking so long? Something isn’t right about this story.
The dealer was crap, and the floor was crappier!? So, is the crap casino you’re in. Apparently, they sided the perpetrator on purpose. I’d take my money and never play there again. . To prevent this - It is a good idea to always learn the casino poker room rules before bringing your money in. If they say, ‘sorry we have them not available at this time’, then it is YOUR FAULT if you get damaged due to casino incompetence.
This is a crazy but kinda funny situation. He probably got the max, a lot of people raise the nut flush on the flop and if he had air he folds. I wouldn’t be too upset at the players but more upset at get a warning for acting out if turn. The Armenian mike situation was a joke tho lol, I think I would have gave mike half his chips back or something it was so stupid. Not like Armenian mike would ever be up on somebody so I would just want him in the game if it was “my game” like it was feldmans.
I know multiple people who are deaf or hard of hearing that play poker with me and rely upon cues from the dealer during a hand. Unless you want those people to be at an inherent disadvantage, your criticism cannot be valid.
@@JoseCaldercat course it's still valid. If you have the ability to pay better attention you should. He said he had a hood on, head down and obstructed by the dealer. It's on you for 2 of those things to not do your best.
What a stupid take. The dealer put the all in button out and told hero the villain was all in?! Whether he had earphones in or not what do you want him to do
Home game. Seven card stud, hi-low. $20/$40 limit. Declare with chips. 0 chips low, 1 chip high, 2 chips both ways. Three handed action pot. I have Ace diamond exposed and lead. Both player with low cards call. Pot continues with me getting K diamonds, Queen diamonds and Jack diamonds on board against all obviously low cards. Pot is bet and capped each round. I am playing to win half the pot. In fact, I have nothing underneath, but it is declare with chips. At showdown, one player blurts out of turn, "I have 64 for low!" and turns his cards face up, forgetting that it was "declare with chips." The other guy tanks and finally says, "I guess I'll go high with a six high straight. I cannot beat the straight, but obviously they were going to both declare low. That was 25 years ago and I'm still pissed.
So not only does the UTG player not get kicked off the table but the guy with the nuts gets a warning for acting out of turn!?!?! I don't think I'd be playing in that room again any time soon.
it sounds like he got a warning for an out of line protest
I think the guy who went ‘all in’ should’ve forfeited his own stack
And to clarify what I mean is, the jerk who said all in
Not the big blind obviously
The learning point is this. Large pots don’t come up too often, and errors in big pots are very costly. Recognize when you are in a big pot and take extra care of the details.
Come to Houston. Huge pots every few hands lol
I'm confused about why we don't think the casino owes him the difference. The dealer is an agent of the casino, and the dealer's instruction is what caused hero to act. I definitely get that it's wise to double check before calling (let alone turning over your hand), but I don't see how that changes the dealer's own responsibility, in the casino's name, to double check the action before issuing a costly false instruction.
That's an unreasonable standard to uphold though. Think of how many hands are dealt a day, and the number of idiots like this UTG player that can cause potentially cause confusion. Casinos already hate poker (low earnings), and think of what the rake would be if they were liable for this kind of thing. There's always going to be an element of random error when it comes to live play.
It is always the player's responsibility to keep track of the action despite what the dealer may do. See the Sammartino hand at the WSOP ME FT 2019.
I don't play much live in casino, so I'm with you. Specifically: Dealer hears BB say All In, Dealer tosses All In puck into pot & tells Hero "it's on you, he's all in", Hero says Call and shows hand. At that moment hand is over winner gets pot. If I'm hero, I'm taking my pot, including BB's chips represented by the All In puck.
So if we then learn that UTG & BB & Dealer engaged in some zanieness, why do their mistakes get resolved by taking my (Hero) money away from me? Maybe UTG repays BB for fucking with him on his turn. Certainly the house won't pay for Dealer's mistake, but why is it Hero who must pay?
I guess I'll just take the final advice, take a min to see that the guy physically does something, like push in chips or muck his cards, before I act because words and dealer actions are meaningless.
@@benwengert8725 lol, did you listen to the video. Player kept track of the action, and was instructed by the dealer to make a decision. dealer, thus the casino is at fault here and should pay player the difference.
I think casino usually make UTG to pay it in LA
It doesn't matter he has hand or not
Hero didn't make anything wrong
Is UTG and BB friends? Why didn’t BB protest the all-in puck? Most people protest immediately. Also I don’t get turning cards over before calling.
exactly I would have immediately reacted
@t- milt most casinos aren't like that. As long as you're heads up you can expose cards
I don't understand the showing of cards either.
He could have been looking down, thinking, could have thought no one would seriously consider someone else saying all in as him saying it. Multiple reasons, especially if it happened quickly
I normally do not post on these vids but this one (and some of Bart's other videos with clear cheating) have me feeling very sad. While I agree it is very difficult to rectify this unfortunate situation, I wanted to highlight a few of my perspectives and make I proposition on what I think should happen here (Apologies for long post):
1) While the caller (D) did not do anything wrong here, as it is the dealer's responsibility to track the action accurately so that the "All-In" button represents official action, he could have protected himself better. I would much rather get some crap from other members at the table for taking 10-15 seconds longer than I should have than put myself at any risk of having my equity in the pot compromised my factors outside of gameplay. From a win rate perspective this is a total disaster for the button, so in this spot unless I knew with 100% certainty that BB said "All-In" I would ask him/her to confirm that they moved all in. I will do this whether I have the nuts, a hand with marginal showdown or a hand with no showdown value that I would consider bluffing with if checked to
2) Obviously the dealer did screw up here, and while I am 100% behind supporting dealers and do not think there should be any monetary punishment for failing to accurately track action, the floor needs to be alerted to the fact that the dealer made a mistake and take some action to try to ensure that the dealer understands the gravity of the mistake and works towards limiting the likelihood this happens again in the future.
3) Depending on how long the All In Button was out there and where it was thrown the villain (BB) may or may not be at fault here. It is possible that it was in a spot that wasn't clearly in front of him and he may have thought the caller (D) moved in out of turn, but given that the caller was in seat 10 and on the button, villain would be in seat 2 so I find this somewhat unlikely. From the call, it sounds like the button snap acted, so I'd lean towards absolving the BB of blame (although if the button had been out there for 10-15 seconds I'd change this opinion)
4) UTG is a total clown that personifies all of the sleaziness that some people associate with gambling/playing poker. There ABSOLUTELY needs to be a severe punishment for all instances where a player influences action whether the intention was to or just make a sick joke that didn't have any impact as he claims. There are so many well-intention-ed players that play this game for a variety of noble reasons (fun, profit, enjoyment of strategy etc.), but players who angle-shoot, influence action, or attempt to gain an unfair advantage in any way drag everyone who is part of the community through the mud and encourages players who are victimized by stories such as these to quit. We can take steps to restoring poker's image by dealing with people who attempt to cheat or harm other player's EV in a serious manner. Without this type of punishment, what is to stop UTG from attempting this type of "joke" again that hurts someone else's EV. *If I was floor manager, I would have given UTG a choice from a one-month ban from the casino or the option to pay off BB's effective stack to the button since his "joke" denied the button an opportunity to pick off a bluff from the BB* (to be clear what BB's hole-cards are is irrelevant if he had the K high flush the same logic of denying the BB the opportunity to value jam would still apply)
In an ideal world the casino would pay off the bet since their employee (the dealer) did not fulfill his/her responsibility to the game, but we don't live in an ideal world, so some type of action as outlined in #2 will have to do IMO. These are just my opinions presented respectfully, so if anyone who agrees/disagrees posts in a respectful way I am all for that
Hear hear!
100% agree. I appreciate the time and effort put into this post. The floor at that casino needs to read this because they are clearly lost.
Great post. However, the problem is that with the nuts, if you give the other player any chance to take back the all-in, you're losing value. The fact that you do the same without the nuts doesn't matter - there's no balancing here.
Noob Mistake
Always and I mean ALWAYS wait for the opponent who you called to show their cards first, if you have the nuts or not.
regardless, the casino should compensate for the dealer making the error, period. if the dealer makes mistakes often, then fire him/her, its that simple.
youre joking. just the fact he called would prompt villlain to check fold anyway
Good advice from Bart. Slow down before tabling your hand. I’ve been in similar situations and I’ve made it a habit to confirm a player is all in before calling with nuttish hands. I’ll ask the dealer “is he all in?” or I’ll ask the player “are you all in?”
I once had someone say all in after I flopped a set of eights, and snap called him. He pleaded his case saying he said, he’s all this in. And was pointing at a min bet raise. It was ruled in my favor and I stacked the dude.
fuck yeah that makes me happy hearing that. fuck that dude
Dear poker players, when crap like this happens please get the name of the floor who made the ruling and drag their ass through the mud. The fact UTG doesn’t get the boot and this guy got the warning for acting out of turn warrants the floor being fired for incompetence. This must stop happening and won’t until we do something about it
I'm amazed how many floor managers are terrible.
I've seen something like this happen twice;
1. On the river, a player starts to stack his chips together, and then starts to push them forward. Other player immediately calls the all in motion, and turns over his hand. The angle shooting player then states "I haven't acted or said anything " The floor was called over and ruled since there was forward movement of the stacks of chips, those chips were in play. House rule was any forward movement was a bet. The angle shooter was force to put those chips into the pot. Because this was the house rules at the time, I always counted out chips behind my cards 1st.
2. Same casino, but rules have changed and either player must say all in, or move all chips into pot and release. Dealer thinks a player has moved all in and released chips, puts out the button, and announcers All In, 2nd player snap calls, throwing out one chip and turns over his hand. Dealer then sees 1st player still has 2 black $100 chips back. Floor called and ruled that only the chips released where in the pot.
I've learned to always confirm with the dealer what the action is, no matter where I'm playing.
I agree, the person whom said All In should be removed from the table or the room for at least that day, or week, unless there have been other issues. I've even seen a player forced to pay for a set up, when he tore his 2 cards in half when I slow played a flopped set on him to the river and busted his aces.
This is why I always confirm that the person is all in before I act, and wait for a response.
CanadianLoveKnot lol same. seems like common sense procedure to me. Especially for a few k pot.
Honestly I would be a bit concerned if the two were colluding and would have watched them for other tells that were or weren't. People like to believe it's a rare thing but it happens a lot. When I first started. I played at a casino where they allowed a husband and wife to play at the same table almost every time. It was often obvious that they colluded naturally do to being husband and wife.
These stories are nuts I play in Detroit and we dont even have this nonsense going on. Everything in Detroit is fucked up but we manage to play poker properly. I NEVER turn my hand over before the money is in. I learned poker playing with pure degenerates so i'm always on guard. If other people think you are slow rolling; fuck them.
This is why I always say " did you say you were all in? ". This Annoys people when I show them the nuts ultimately but F them. You NEED to protect your hand and your interests.
i think the BB is sneaky !! if dealer toss an all in button in front of me b4 i get to act. i will insta halt the action and asked the dealer what's going on.
Now I really want to know what Ben Dipson said...
The world may never know...
All I'm here for
I don't know how common this is in other casinos, but I did once see a guy who said he was all in as a joke (he too wasn't even in the hand), the dealer called a floor over, and the floor forced him to be all in with no hole cards (he was basically all in playing the board).
In that case this dumb "joke" didn't actually affect the hand, since everyone at the table noticed that the guy who said it wasn't in the hand, so I thought it was kind of harsh. In the case of this caller, however, I would 100% get behind forcing the joker UTG to actually shove his stack into the pot.
That ruling makes no sense lol. So if the board was the best hand he would win some of the dead money?
That kind of ruling would have to depend on the board though. What if it came out KQQQQ, or a straight flush, and the joker who already folded pre-flop now shouts "I am all in!"?
I thought about that. Waiting a bit before saying call. But then it looks like ur slow rolling them. The exact reason people insta call is to not slow roll and make it seem like they have an actual decision.
Saw something similar happen to a buddy of mine.
Villain had hidden 1k chips in the middle of stack.
Now I always, always ask for a dealer count when jammed on.
This could've saved Hero here too.
Didn't watch, but having read the title, imma assume it's about Armenian Mike
Kevin L I had the same thought. Then I heard the guys voice
That's what I initially though too...
Ben dipson is a dipshit 👀
LOL RIGHT AS I READ YOUR COMMENT THEY MENTIONED HIM AT THE END. god thats crazy. literally "Ditto" my brain reading your comment and bart said his name at the exact same time
19:41 What did Ben Dipson say in the live chat
I wanna know too! 😂
I was playing at the LV Golden Nugget new year and i had $450 in chips and $500 cash behind my chips (cash plays at GN). i started the hand with 77 and my opponent ,just sat down and bought for $1k, had 99. The flop came 2 7 9. We both flopped sets. Turn was a blank and river was a 7 giving me quad. He raised and then i went all in and he snapped called with his full house. As the dealer started counting my chips & cash the player went ballistic claiming that he didn't see the cash and had he seen the cash he would've folded. He demanded to view security camera accusing me of adding the cash bills. Players at the table start telling the player that i had been sitting at the table for hours with my 5 big $bills behind. He insisted the floor check the cameras and 45 minuted later when manger came and told him everything was fine he threw the chair and left.
Lets hope that one day he grows some balls and owes up his mistakes without the need for the floor manager to be involved
We stopped doing cash behind at my casino, because people were adding money inbetween hands. Reality is, you can really deceive how much money you have in $100’s quickly. What happened at my home casino was that people were adding money behind their chips and not announcing. So one hand they may have $1500 and the next hand they have $2500.
It’s been long overdue to make it to where only chips are in play and no cash. Players can always pull chips out of their pocket, but that always seemed less likely than cash.
So, what do you do when someone just says all in and sits there not moving their chips or they just put in a few chips and sit there? Do you ask them to put their chips in before calling?
Bart has a video on this. But yes.
@@lookdonttouchx Ask for a chip count b4 calling. Then it forces the dealer and player to push chips forward for the dealer to do a count. Then floor can rule forward action or that chips were pushed over the limit line.
@@awash33988 yes. Always asking for a count is the best. Although some occasions this wont ring true. I'm not a douche and would obviously pay up but I was in seat 1 yesterday and check jammed turn. Kid asked for count and dealer counted it right out in front of me but didnt move it forward. Probably because of the seat i was in. AS guy was tanking though I pushed them forward.
I feel like the floor could have done better. If the caller isn't entitled to his $800 for whatever reason then fine. But casinos give out comps all the time. So kick the dude out who said all in and, as a gesture of good faith, comp the button free dinner or a room for a night or a buy in for an upcoming tournament. Not a perfect or even fair solution....but at the very least it's professional and acknowledges that the button got screwed.
I think this would've been a great way to handle it actually.
Because of the dealers mistake, casino should pay back to BB that last bet and give the whole all-in pot to button. Clear mistake by the dealer, I would never play again on that place, if the house isn't responsible. Utg out yeah, but not good enough, dealer made a mistake.
Totally not this guy's fault. However, the lesson being taught here is 100% correct. ALWAYS wait to call until you see the opponents bet go into the pot. Ask for a count if no one is forcing it. You will never run into this or any other situation like it again. Yes people may think you're slow rolling, but you can defend your reasoning well enough.
Also to the point about forcing a player to put chips in the pot...The casino is allowed to force the player who said all in (even though they don't have cards) to pay the bet. If the player refuses, they can ban the player indefinitely until the debt is paid. It would be an unusual ruling, but it has been ruled that way in poker before and that ruling does prevent these situations from happening.
I won't say the name of the casino but there was a person who literally stole a stack of poker chips from another player while he was away from the table and this casino has at least 3 armed police officers at one time and he was stopped and arrested and the chips were returned to the player who was away from the table. I've never seen a player at a table owe another player money and walk away without paying but I can imagine that the armed police officers would've stopped him/her and dealt with the situation accordingly.
I heard you say that fast playing can work wonders a few years ago. The next week I did exactly that. No one believed I actually had a flush, since I was betting. Worked wonders. And I always keep it in mind. Thanks
This is why I A.) Always clarify bets, the action and the amount. Especially with an all-in- Please count the entire stack B.) I always have the dealer make the pot right before show down.
Maybe could be a team?
I watched something similar happen in a home game one time. Unless I am literally looking at the person to act and witness him say all-in, I always will turn to that person and ask him if he said all-in if I only "hear" all-in, even if the dealer states it to me.
There was a tourney where a player mucked his hand, pot got given to the winner and then he said 'all in' as a joke. Dealer took his call and he was knocked out. The utg player here should've lost his chips.
This sucks, if there were justice then the utg should have his chips put in but that just doesn't work. Really the dealer fucked up and the liability for not properly tracking the action is on the casino but no chance they'd ever admit fault. Pure BS through and through
casino niagara is the WORST place to play poker, absolute worst place on earth.
In my Opinion there would only be one fair way to solve this Situation:
We have to first figure out, who's to blame for this Situation... I think we can all agree that UTG is the main Player to blame... But there is also some Fault on the Dealer/ BB Side. BB for not reacting faster, when he saw that All-In puck to wander into the Middle and the Dealer for setting him all-in and not double checking...
The Hand should run out as an All-In and Hero wins the whole Pot. The All-In Bet on the River (those 500$) have to be splitted between those 3 Parties... Where the House has to pay around 5% and BB has to pay 5% of the Money and UTG has to pay the other 90%...
In my Mind that would have been one of the only fair Solutions to this Situation.
The UTG player should be all-in then, and with no hand to table, is out the chips!
My friend who’s been a floor his whole life had this happened in the room where he worked and was flooring and he made the guy who wasn’t in the hand that said all in pay that amount.
With all ins, I always confirm the action especially if I can’t see them. Also by waiting for the better(supposed better) to show first, isn’t slow rolling. It’s your right and now you can make sure he acted and you get to see his hand.
This is so tilting to watch. UTG needs a beat down
UTG needs to be ITG. In front of the gun.
What angels shooting occured in May?
What do you have against angels that you want them shot?
Perhaps you meant angles where it is L-E after the ang and not E-L. :)
Casino also has some blame. The dealer should have made sure the action was from the correct player in the pot...then stating that the player in the pot declared all In. Put in the all in button...therefore the dealer/slash casino has said to u that the player in The pot said all in....therefore they are running the game and saying player said All in...
To bad for the casino....there fck up they pay. Also player saying shit during hand he not in. Getting a beat down
I think gto says to raise flop on monotone board with nut flush
Screw that casino. They don't deserve your timer or your money. I play a lot of poker at Bicycle in LA. One thing I can't stand is when the casino agrees or doesn't punish unprofessionalism like that. Either by the Dealer or the Player. You always wait for an opponent to show his cards in a big pot like that too. Too much at stake.
In fairness to the hero, he was just avoiding the "slow roller" tag.
Make stupid jokes win stupid prices.. really stupid prices in this case...
I don't think I would have tipped the dealer after that hand.
Have an old man that does this at are private games. Gave him the option, take a beating or pay the action.
Grymm Gaming
How bad was the beating ?
Hey man I mean that’s how it goes. I’m not mad at that. You want to act like a fool at another’s expense you can pay what you just cost him or get the shit kicked out of you. That’s life.
Utg should have to pay the all in bet!! He should have to pay off the last $500 or be banned for life.
Sounds like a planned play to me.
In the situation where the guy misstated his hand and the other guy mucked, almost everyone waits till they SEE the actual guys hand for that exact reason. Before mucking ur hand. U don’t have to turn ur hand over but at least wait till u KNOW ur beat for sure.
I was at a table where someone (MGM Springfield, Ma) tossed $1.00 chip in called all in, to a 60.00 all in, then lose the hand and take his chips and walk out. He was a regular and has been banned, but stupid people do stupid things.
Some of the worst poker I have ever played has been in Canada. Lots of shady stuff like this going on. Wouldn't be surprised if they knew each other and they angle shot you..
Here's a free tip: The better you behave, the better reactions you will get from other people. So if there is any sort of ruling needed, do not be the guy who is shouting and making everyone stressed, be the cool guy and just tell what happened.
Some are commenting that you should confirm a player is all in before acting. This may sound good on the surface but it's not feasible in the long run. You can't be pausing with the nuts every time someone shoves to make sure they're all in. For one, you might give something away, and also you can become exploitable in that you always confirm bets at the end with the nuts.
The best way to combat this is simply to be focused on the action at all times while in the pot. If you're heads up, be watching your opponent when it is their turn to act (which you should be doing anyway).
One thing I want to add that makes this ethical breach so bad is that let's take a look at the caller's perspective when he doesn't have the nuts. Let's say he has a medium strength hand that still happens to be good. UTG announces all in and hero mucks. Now BB is privy to extremely profitable information. That action costs the hero a lot of money regardless of his holdings.
There actually is a way to balance the average "cost" to the hero with this action, in the long run, and applying this to the UTG in the form of a fine. I know this would never happen, but it would be nice.
If you are not involved in a hand you shut you your cake hole and say nothing about the hand as you could affect the action.
Casino should pay off the all in bet, because the dealer put in the all in chip and didn’t look at the player actually in the hand. 800 is not much for a casino but a very large bet for a player.
Hero asked dealer about weather bb was all in and all in disc was thrown. Why didnt bb mention he wasnt the one to say “all in” during that time? Doesnt seem hero snap called. Bb should be getting thrown out too. bb and utg could be colluding/angling whereas utg says all in to hopefully induce action from hero and get to freeroll the pot. Also if dealer confirms a player is all in and throws all in disc why should hero pay for that mistake when holding the nuts. Shouldnt dealer be asked to make up for the all in amount? or at least part of it?
Solution: Seat 3 gets kicked out. Card room pays up.
Dealer fucked up, therefore, casino fucked up.
The opponent not saying something about the all-in puck being thrown in is a sanction of the all-in, meaning that it is effectively the same as him saying all-in. It is incumbent on every player in the hand to be aware of what is happening on the table and in the hand. If he didn’t say “wait, I didn’t say anything” when the all-in puck is thrown in, he failed in his vigilance, likely to see the reaction of the hero. He absolutely did do something wrong.
Agree with bart if not 3 bet pot def fast play it already on the flop, could even be good in this spot since the 3b guy should have 1010-AA or AK sometimes with K spade.
Who is Ben Dipson
He’s some dipshit...
Sadly, this seems to be a common thing amongst amateurs. The amount of times I’ve seen an amateur do some variation of this is ridiculous. And they *_always_* think it’s hilarious…
I think there should be recourse against the dealer. How do you miss which player has gone all in?! Voices aren’t all the same 😂.
Another reason to fast play the nuts on the flop
just a prank bro
Never, Never, Never turn your cards over until the Dealer tells you to! I've been burned by turning over my cards too soon. Slow down!
The player who called all-in should have his chips added to the pot.
The fact that he had previously folded was irrelevant...he was playing.
He should also be banned.
lol. Can you bet after you have folded?
Funny that poker players might only get involved in a hand 20% of the time and can switch off once they've mucked their hand but can't comprehend that a dealer never gets to switch off. Dealer hears "all in" from the direction of the blind and understandably moves on. If you can't keep up with the action when you're heads up in a decent sized pot, holding the nuts, then maybe time to head back to the black jack tables.
Exactly. I agree. Keeping your head down, hood on, headphones in, not trying to give any "Information" away, I personally find hilarious. Whenever I'm In a big pot heads up and the action is on my opponent, you better believe I am keeping my eye on him one way or another.
Damnit I clicked on this expecting a crazy review of LATB
How do you think the first slow was invented- for these situations.
While the dealer is an agent of the casino, ultimately players are responsible for their own actions.
The UTG needs to be banned, per casino policy. If that's not their policy, you may want to find another casino.
The dealer should also be reprimanded, as his actions poorly represented the casino.
And sadly, the hero needs to take responsibility for not following the action properly. Attempts to stay under the radar and hide tells do not relieve the responsibility of the player to know for themselves what action is taking place. While the dealer turning to him, may have certainly given him the impression it was his action, had he been paying attention himself, he would have known the villian had yet to act.
Jesus. I would have fought the floor bareknuckles. Terrible ruling
It's so funny because I've played 2-5 in Montreal and a guy would do this every second hand when he wasn't in the pot. I'm wondering if it's the same guy
Personally I do think the casino should be liable for dealer errors. If a dealer tells you the other player is all in and this unfolds I do think the casino should be on the hook for the opponents stack size
I'd be pissed at the opponent almost more than the idiot who said all in. He hears the other player say "all in." He hears the dealer prompt you to act. He nevertheless says nothing. It may not have been an intentional angle or one he created, but it's certainly an angle of omission that he was knowingly and happily taking advantage of. There may not be any requirement for him to clarify the situation, but it was nevertheless the ethical thing to do. He got to see that you have the goods while knowing the all in wasn't binding.
Look, the all-in puck went in, the dealer accepted the all-in bet, so that bet should be live, and someone has to pay it. Of course, it should not be the player who didn't act, so it should be the casino. This called is owed that bet from the casino, quite clearly. I don't even think that's controversial. This would be far more controversial if the caller didn't have the nuts and this caused him to fold a winning hand.
I also think there might be an angle here where the guy didn't immediately react to the all-in statement, the puck going in, or the dealer prompting the caller but instead only spoke up when the all-in was called. Maybe he was in his own world a bit but maybe he was hoping for the caller here to fold without risking his stack.
"Deep shit" ahahahhaha lmao. What did the guy wrote in chat ?
What really sucks here is that you can't take the time to confirm the guy is allin for certain without slow rolling him. Such a shitty spot.
Never make jokes. Obviously.
the dealer needs to go back to school
utg should be banned for life - this would be such extreme way to collude to gain ton of information
Verbal action is binding but oh well
I would always wait until the chips hit the pot
The ALL IN WISE guy would get an ass whooping
It’s very clear you haven’t played many big pots
Yeah that dude was probably drunk and thought it was hilarious to fuck with the hand on an impulse.
Some recs dont realize that even talking in a hand might get you punched in the mouth lmao.
I would ask if i could take the pot with no river bet since he still had the absolute nuts. And yeah I would have reamed UTG and even if the floor doesnt kick him, im making sure hes not playing at that table.
utg should have to cough up his stack
Please don't compare this this with the video titled "The WORST Angle Shooting Incident in Poker!" These two incidents have nothing in common.
That was a great story Bart. Lol
I don’t buy this story. If I’m tanking for a minute and the guy next to me says “All in” and the dealer tosses me the “puck” I’m immediately freaking out saying “whoa I didn’t say anything” and I think everyone else would do the same thing. Like if the caller says he heard it and immediately flipped and called, that’s more believable. But the caller said the dealer turned to him, after tossing the puck, and said “it’s on you.” That’s far more than enough time for the guy to say “hey I’m not all in!” Also, just out of curiosity, why was that guy tanking so long? Something isn’t right about this story.
I have Verbally humiliated people till they quit or swing I believe that is what I would do.
The dealer was crap, and the floor was crappier!? So, is the crap casino you’re in. Apparently, they sided the perpetrator on purpose. I’d take my money and never play there again.
.
To prevent this - It is a good idea to always learn the casino poker room rules before bringing your money in. If they say, ‘sorry we have them not available at this time’, then it is YOUR FAULT if you get damaged due to casino incompetence.
This is a crazy but kinda funny situation. He probably got the max, a lot of people raise the nut flush on the flop and if he had air he folds. I wouldn’t be too upset at the players but more upset at get a warning for acting out if turn. The Armenian mike situation was a joke tho lol, I think I would have gave mike half his chips back or something it was so stupid. Not like Armenian mike would ever be up on somebody so I would just want him in the game if it was “my game” like it was feldmans.
If the hero had headphones or earbuds then he's somewhat at fault. That would've never happened to me, in huge spots like that, pay attention.
I know multiple people who are deaf or hard of hearing that play poker with me and rely upon cues from the dealer during a hand. Unless you want those people to be at an inherent disadvantage, your criticism cannot be valid.
@@JoseCaldercat course it's still valid. If you have the ability to pay better attention you should. He said he had a hood on, head down and obstructed by the dealer. It's on you for 2 of those things to not do your best.
What a stupid take. The dealer put the all in button out and told hero the villain was all in?! Whether he had earphones in or not what do you want him to do
This is why I make sure chips go in first.
it does not matter dealer make the wrong decision dealer have to pay for it the house have to pay it
I would have been livid!
hopefully the house looked the other way for what you did to SB later on in the parking lot.
Home game. Seven card stud, hi-low. $20/$40 limit. Declare with chips. 0 chips low, 1 chip high, 2 chips both ways. Three handed action pot. I have Ace diamond exposed and lead. Both player with low cards call. Pot continues with me getting K diamonds, Queen diamonds and Jack diamonds on board against all obviously low cards. Pot is bet and capped each round. I am playing to win half the pot. In fact, I have nothing underneath, but it is declare with chips. At showdown, one player blurts out of turn, "I have 64 for low!" and turns his cards face up, forgetting that it was "declare with chips." The other guy tanks and finally says, "I guess I'll go high with a six high straight. I cannot beat the straight, but obviously they were going to both declare low. That was 25 years ago and I'm still pissed.
Can you add graffics with table positions for us newbies?