Smartest take on this that I've heard. As a native NYer who spends a lot of time in rural America, let me tell you that auto and oil companies are terrified of ebikes. Humans across the spectrum understand that ebikes are true car replacements -- maybe not for every trip, but for many trips. We see people using them to grocery shop, take laundry to the laundromat, meet friends, go fishing -- all the things that used to require one car or multiple cars. Of course the auto industry wants to stoke fear. And the recipients of their advertising dollars, a.k.a. local TV news stations, are complicit in the fear mongering.
Even a few years ago, auto manufacturers were wary of e-bikes. I participated in a forum on sustainable transport during an online conference in 2020 or 2021, and I could tell the representatives from auto manufacturers didn’t like when I and another participant were talking about how much we loved our e-bikes and what we were using them for. They could easily get on board and get in the market, or provide ways to combine the two. GM made an attempt and promptly canceled what looked like decent folding e-bikes. Of course, the main issue with their concepts were the proposed prices. I don’t know why they spec them so high when a more basic spec will do, especially if they or their components (like the battery) are well-integrated with the car.
@@chow-chihuang4903 Wow, I did not know about the GM Ariv project. They look like awesome bikes. But I guess GM is just happy selling 7000-lb gas pickups and the 9000-lb Hummer EV.
I don't see e-bikes or bicycles in general threatening the profits and sales of automobile companies. Americans largely want to have a car for themselves. It's standard and expected. Mostly that's true for even avid cyclists, with e-bikes or regular bikes. The mentality for bikes for utility use or commuting is simply an eccentric and uncommon one, excepting for teenagers or college students especially. Using them for down to earth and practical trips outside of dedicated exercise fits me to a tee, but I see myself as unusual, and even with me, I've only been doing it for a couple of years now for anything other than dropping off a bill in the mail. It's a mindset change that doesn't always happen. Probably far less likely for someone who didn't ride bikes a lot as a kid or didn't use them for school commutes. However, I still want my pick-up truck for some trips or for not being marooned in the city where I live.
I agree it won’t have as much impact on auto sales as the manufacturers fear, though it will have some. What e-bikes and other PEVs will do is reduce the use of autos for shorter trips, especially solo or duo trips when you don’t need to haul a bunch of heavy cargo. But I guess that would impact the sales of fossil fuels for ICEVs. I, for one, since I got a cargo ebike, and having a Costco open where I can get to it via bike somewhat safely, have greatly reduced the use of my car. I still use my car for longer trips or hauling heavy or bulky items that would be difficult to fit on the cargo bike or a cargo trailer, thus I have held onto it. I guess it will last longer, so I won’t be purchasing a replacement anytime soon. 😅
Every e-biker should stand and be counted with this guy, let the politicians know that this is our right to choose what we want to use for a daily commute or recreational activity, either they can side with lobbyists or side with the people who VOTE.
I think the only difference here is these products are a little bit more mature and they actually do have certain safety and testing requirements. In the US we work a little bit backwards and that we wait until there’s enough issues before actually making safety standards or requirement and this is one way that it’s backfired a little bit for us here
The main difference is that a failed lithium battery has a way higher chance of burning down a building than a failed toaster. This is because of the insanely high temperatures lithium batteries can reach. EV's for example reach 2760C which will melt through either steel, aluminum or concrete like butter. With a toaster, even if it fails (which is very rare) it's not very likely to start a fire. Don't get me wrong, toasters do present risks and do start about 2000 fires every year but think about it. Virtually EVERY house has a toaster and uses them frequently. If EVERY house had cheap e-bikes running lithium cell technology you would see some big trends. Trust me.
And don't get me wrong. I think it's terrible that people are being restricted in terms of personal mobility but I'm being realistic about this technology. It can and does burn down large buildings. We need to look at using better technology or simply revert to NiMH batteries which are virtually 100% safe even if you put a nail through them or burn them with a jet lighter. It's not our fault it's the fault of the massive corporations who have chosen to adopt this stupid dangerous tech in mass. Better range isn't a good thing when you lose that fantastic thing we call peace of mind. I have 3 EUC's and I am always aware that if one were to go off it will most likely vent in the form of ultra hot 20 foot flames that last several minutes. I've seen several videos of it happening. It's literally like having a military grade flamethrower emptying it's entire load. For a house to survive this it would be a miracle. These events could easily set entire buildings ablaze.
The problem is this allowing or not allowing crap. It's personal private property. If it fits in the door somehow then that's it. Government or the city should have no say in what you have or what you do. If it's the owner, then that's a different story. He ought to be able to filter the people and things in his building regardless of his personal prejudices, or hang ups, or morality standards. If the owner is a jerk to you then find another landlord. Exact same concept with banning tenants from having a smoke in their own place; Unreasonable and outrageous for the city. Unreasonable for the owner also, albeit within his rights since it's his building.
When the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 was exploding, people were blaming that device. When some low quality batteries explode, people are blaming all electric bikes.
Something everyone seems to be overlooking is Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (LifePo4). I've been running a DIY Lithium Phosphate Battery on my ebike almost three years and over 4,000 miles and about 300 charge cycles, and it's still at 90% of new capacity. LifePo4 costs half of a comparable capacity cheap Li-Ion Battery, lasts up to 10X longer and charges three times faster. The only down-side is that the Life04 battery battery is about 25% heavier, or about 5lbs more than a comparable Li-Ion Battery. Given the safety (LifePo4 does not self-combust like Li-Ion) lower cost, environmental and longevity advantages of LifeP04 over the downsides of a Li-ion battery, 5lbs is nothing.
@@purpleblueunicorn I've been comparing similar Li-Ion and LFP packs in summer and winter and have observed the range fall-off to be about the same on both types of cells. Li-Ion seems to have noticeably better response when cold but when the LFP packs generate a bit of heat the performance returns. IF the LFP packs and Ebike are stored inside a heated home (something I'd not do with Li-Ion packs ), and are in slightly insulated cases I don't notice any performance degradation when operated in cold temps. Last year I installed some thermal pads in two of my LFP packs that heat them up to about 80F and plugged them for about 15mins before a ride and they perform very well and maintain that temp as long as a drawing current.
@@jackoneil3933 Very nice, surprised this option is not offered more often, but I think the added range and lower price will always win in consumer's eyes. Even Li-Ion could be better controlled with good BMS and individual cell monitoring and rebalancing and few electric devices except very high-end will implement those features. Maybe these will become standard in the future.
Solid state batteries coming but that still won’t fix the problem. It’s simple. Every non compliant battery that comes into North America from somewhere else get sent back to where it came from. Don’t let them in! illegal to import, illegal to sell. Then you don’t have to worry about which bike is safe. Introduce a rebate to return non compliant batteries for disposal.
Thanks for all your hard work. I ride an e-bike in Australia, often long-distance and overnight charging is req. Riding to work and locking up in a cycle compound, power points were installed there just for e-Bikes, after all, we have thousands of li-ion powered laptops thoughout the building. I have long suggested Govts must become responsible for what is imported and allowed for sale. I sidestepped all the cheapies and bought a Cube pedelec with a Bosch system.
USB-C has a flimsy-looking PCB in the middle of the port and requires a voltage booster in the battery. Otherwise, it’d be a good standard connector as it can negotiate pin-assignment (so it doesn’t matter which way you plug in the cable), voltage and power, at least for low-speed charging. Most USB-C chargers are capped at 20V and 3A (60W) or 5A (100W), with some rated up to 48V and 5A (240W). I don’t know how water-tight the ports can be.
@@Propelbikes I know but maybe one day the could have something like electric cars have. It's a hope that I know won't happen. We should at least hope the companies stop changing their chargers. I am looking at you Bosch
@@chow-chihuang4903 i do not think usb-c pd can really handle ebikes [42~54.6, if not 58.8+v at full charge] all that well, i'd be more interested in a standardized charger connection like NACS here in the us or CCS in the EU/UK for the ev car/truck side for an example.. also, usb-c does not have any boost converters in the cable, the electronics in the cable are just a way to say 'this cable is ok for 5a current at a given voltage' and/or say it is ok to do other things, like displayport alt-mode.. also agree that Ted Cruz is being an idiot and ACTIVELY HARMING our safety and ability to get properly made/tested batteries for ebikes/escoots and similar such over a mere proposal, it never made it past that from what i am hearing.
You run a company that sells e-bikes in NYC, I would think you do have a case for a lawsuit in that this bans are affecting your business (fewer ppl can safely store their bikes in buildings = less business for you). That said, finding someone who has been directly impacted works too. Maybe two lawsuits? One from your business being impacted and one from a person who was banned from bringing their bike?
Me and my wife currently live in Co-Op City Bronx, New York. I have a Trek Allan’s + 8S which is a pedal assist 28 miles an hour with the botch motor and I have been unable to ride my bike due to this exact same reason and I’m sure you’re aware that this bikes pass all safety standards I would almost be honored We have talked to the Co-Op City board and been denied outright and was looking for a legal option
@@freeflymonkey Co-Op City has its own own police force, and they are constantly posted in front of my building which I do appreciate. And sometime they also in the lobby
Also a great example of how safety features can make things safer. It's actually pretty hard to start a fire at a space heater nowadays but people have older ones
The problem with banning space heaters, which I agree can be dangerous, is that landlords often don't turn on the heat to save money and tenants often freeze. It's miserable. Sure, there are heating laws in NYC but who has the money to hire a lawyer to sue the landlord?
I would love to volunteer for this lawsuit, but I don’t yet own an e-bike because of a ban at my building. It’s kind of a catch 22. Thanks Chris for taking this on
That's a direct impact and probably qualifies you to volunteer. How much are you spending on alternate forms of transportation that could be reduced with an e-bike? If you're using a regular acoustic bike instead, how much time is it costing you? In the latter case, you are spending more calories (=higher food costs) and likely more time traveling/showering, etc. than you otherwise would with an e-bike.
I have to agree with DizzyDiddy. You sound like a perfect candidate to bring this suit. You are a law abiding citizen being adversely affected by uninformed rules.
@@DizzyDiddy you’re correct, this is a direct impact. I commute 3hrs/day by subway to work. My commute could probably be reduced by 1hr with an e-bike. I’d also be getting exercise and saving $72/month I spend on train fare. @propelbikes, how do we connect?
As far as I understand it building insurers are part of the problem where they don't cover the fires resulting from ebikes. There was a recent thread on r/MicromobilityNYC where this was discussed in the comments as well.
Great video. Something to consider is building/apartment owners might be seeing restrictions come from their insurance carriers/policies. If they don’t restrict e-bikes in buildings, much like charcoal grills on balconies, they will lose coverage and have to potentially pay more due to higher fire risk.
And if insurance carriers are placing restrictions on landlords, it's because they've seen too many fires caused by e-bike batteries. They don't impose restrictions just for the sake of being difficult. They may not consider the UL listed status reliable enough to allay their fears.
@@CaliforniaArchitect UL= Underwriters Laboratory: underwriting is an important function of insurance companies do. Insurance companies started UL 120 years ago in order to lessen the risks of electric house fires (think about the state of electricity at that time!) so it would be ironic if they were refusing to accept UL certification now...
In Maryland, the state passed a law that prohibits co-ops, HOAs, and condo buildings from prohibiting charging e-bikes in the building. The law was originally written for EVs and the bike people amended it this year.
Thank you for this update. The issues that happen in NYC first will be everywhere at some point. While painful to work through first in the big city, it'll help set the standards going forward. Whenever I've seen stories of eBike fires, it's always with cheap knock off eBikes & batteries. You just don't know what you're getting and the quality and safety standards are just not their. While the eBikes @ Propel can seem expensive, the quality is definitely there in all the brands you sell. I'm still not totally convinced lithium based batteries are the end solution for big vehicles (especially cards and trucks), they were originally meant for portable electronics, but it was the developed tech that was available...
6:16 "we're limiting access to that because somebody doesn't want to do a little bit more work..." I love how you said this. If this ban goes through then the only logical next step is to outright ban cars from all urban areas since pedestrian fatalities are much more common than deaths from ebike battery-ignited apartment fires. Automakers don't want to do a little bit more work to make their products safer for pedestrians, so it's only fair for the law to apply this logic equally to them as well.
EV's have been having similar issues. Some HOA's (Not that I am willing to live under one of those) are banning parking structure presence and charging of EV's.
Keep up the good work we must keep these things available for this country and the people if an e-bike is your only Transportation can you force the apartment building people to go to court because they are depriving you the ability to move around town if your e-bike is your only form of transportation then they are forcing you out of your apartment??
This! I got a long, multi-modal commute and an e-bike (UL certified one) is crucial for riding during the winter and fleeing from any potential danger in the city!
I completely agree: UL Listed e-bikes should not be banned from buildings. That should address the safety concerns. Enforcement could still be an issue, given that NYC has a pretty large number of cheap non-UL Listed e-bikes already on the streets, so it could be confusing to both riders and building managers exactly which bikes and batteries can and can’t go inside.
That is a temporary problem, as non-UL listed bikes gradually die off. NYC has banned the sale of new non-UL listed bikes. And China created new regulations that will mean even new DTC Chinese bikes will have much safer batteries and electrical systems.
I really like your idea of a guide for landlords, to give them knowledge and perspective. There’s such a disconnect in knowledge about UL testing and ratings, and what that testing implies. It’s disappointing that our Federal governments (Canadian here) don’t prioritize the testing of electrical batteries/devices coming in to North America. Our insurance companies also have a responsibility to investigate and test batteries, rather than make the blanket statement that they’re all fire hazards. Thanks for your well thought-out and informative overview. I hope you get your volunteer!
The Amazons, eBays, & Walmarts need to be held accountable for selling cheap unsafe batteries. Ted Cruz is an unreasonable person, so expecting any reasonable legislation with his support is not going to happen. Maybe you should just rent someplace on your own to set up the scenario that you need.
With the popularity of e-bikes and the world they open, I’ve been waiting for someone in the industry to take up a case. I mean, if you can’t ride it certain places, and you can’t store your private property on your premises, the industry has a vested interest in getting the laws right, or the market will die.
A problem with cycle storage is that so far all the solutions I see, including ones frequently shown from the Netherlands, are ableist. Disabled cyclists exist. People who ride e-assist on trikes, quads, bakfiets, etc. exist. The storage pods and racks are almost always only designed for abled cyclists riding standard upright e-bikes. (They only have room for standard upright bikes and/or they require lifting.) If we want to be equitable, if we want it to be possible for as many people as possible to give up cars or leave the car at home, cycle infrastructure has to be accessible. I agree that if e-cycles are going to be banned from buildings or that there's not room for them inside small apartments, we need secure storage. But that storage has to be accessible as well.
Not even, it's sadder than that really. It's a bunch of local politicians flipping their lid over a few accidents and making emotionally driven and reactionary policy decisions, rather than logically trying to solve real safety problems. The problem in this case is performative politics, not lobbyists.
I don't own a building but if I did I certainly wouldn't want lots of random ebikes being stored in it. This is coming from an EUC enthusiast. We are using needlessly dangerous tech because the show is being run by clowns. Even the primitive NiMH batteries are quite literally a million times safer when it comes to not burning down entire buildings. They don't have as much range but let's get our priorities right. My EUC is the size of a briefcase and has 260km nominal range. I think we can sacrifice a bit of range for drastically increased safety.
Yeah, and behind the oil lobbies are the fascists and they are guided by the Illuminati at whose head are aliens. It’s always the aliens if you follow the power. Okay, seriously, did you just blame the oil companies because you thought it would help win support, or do you really believe it?
People who use electric wheelchairs have batteries that will have to charge indoors. Is there a standard for another device of that battery capacity that is comparable to the battery power of an e-bike that exists?
@@jamesphillips2285Yeah, back in 2000s that was the reality, but these batteries tend to release harmful vapors after some time, which may be fine in a car engine bay, but not on something you are going to be sitting on top for years. The best battery type for wheelchairs is LiFePO4, especially the A123. Those often offer lower energy density and heavier than lithium polymer, batteries, but much safer and even viable for sensitive environment, like airline aircraft electrical systems. The reason is the fact those do not burst violently into fire after a puncture or short circuit.
When the lobbyists and those they represent start to take electric buses seriously as a threat to the private car industry, I wouldn’t be surprised if we suddenly start hearing a lot about battery and charging safety there too.
The band will never go through. I do not believe it and I only base this on if they’re going to ban electric bikes, and batteries. Well they’re gonna have to ban iPhones anything that needs to be charged laptop laptop because these things are safe. The batteries are safe as long as you Buy them in the correct way from a reputable supplier same thing that goes when an electric bike anything can go wrong, but with these electric bikes, you really really have to pay attention. You can’t go to sleep and charge. You can’t leave the house in charge. That’s a responsibility that you have to take on yourself. The same thing goes with a phone or a laptop if you leave it charging too long it’s going to either break or catch on fire. It’s just like bikes or a little bit bigger so we have to be responsible on how we charge and what we do and if we have kids to have electric bikes, we need to make sure that they are doing and charging the right way and I don’t think they’re gonna just ban the electric bikes. I could see if it’s in Illegal Electric bike that’s something different and somebody wants to take a risk on losing their bike that they put so much money into by not driving responsibly because that’s the only way you can get caught is by not following the speed limit not following the bikes going up one ways And going up one ways I need to work on that myself. It’s about safety everybody and it’s true if things get crazy with the electric bikes, they can ban them. Yes, they can. I just don’t see the same situations that we’re going on a year ago two years ago People are actually respecting the batteries and understanding their capabilities if they are treated wrong or made wrong we are making better decisions on how to buy batteries and electric bikes. It’s not worth it to pay $79 for a 48 V 20 amp power battery that you have no idea how it was made And has no label. It’s worth paying the full price for a product that you know is labeled and will not hurt you or anybody else you cannot promise that the battery is not going to be faulty but the chances are better when you know what you product you are buying.
I wish that I could write that I can't believe they are still harping on about gas stoves, but I can 't write that because we seem to be living the idiocracy movie. Regulation for safety is something that republicans haven't understood for longalongatime.
Can't you start that lawsuit as you have a business in New York that sells (UL-certified) e-bikes, not too far fetched that such a ban affects your turnover.
I think most e-bike fire issues are due to aftermarket mods. A DIY battery. I'm going to make a battery for my e-bike. I'll trust it not too burn... .... But the building owner has no reason to believe I made the battery safe. A fire proof Secure bike park with outlets for charging is the only option I know.
ALL the ebike fires were done from idiots using wrong charger as some figure the stronger the charger in amps, the quicker they get battery recharged. This is way overlooked and reason Apartments insurances are trying to ban ebikes believing any ebike will start a fire when it is not a 50 50 chance, more like .0001% ( and Im being nice to critics of rate )of ebikers who tinker with components, controller, wire cutting, ect.
@@2505JAD The solution for delivery guys is battery swapping infrastructure. Near-zero downtime and slow charging is not an issue. The infrastructure can be made to contain battery fires.
I'm about 2 minutes in, so this may have been said already: Probably the simplest solution is to just create secure bike storage space for the bikes. If people have an mutually acceptable way to store their bikes, the ban doesn't need to happen. Edit: Yeah. Literally seconds later. Also the battery safety is immensely important as well.
Thieves just break in here and I've seen them take an hour with angle grinding and no obe stopped them! That means I just sneak in my e-bike to my apartment and don't have to worry about leaving it out there!
I just sneak in my UL certified e-scooter and soon to be e-bike through these apartments! Just lucky my family's co-op has no doorman for the time being and has a side-door! Can't take away my safe e-bike!
@larrycamilli9589 And you sound like those close-minded, paranoid, philistine, uninviting folks who can't distinguish the crucial details and track recorfs that separates UL certified batteries from the real hazard! So far, there have been no documented UL-certified battery fires and the ones that do were because of illegal modifications, mixing different, incompatible chargers and mostly from being burned by a fire started by an exploding, neighboring non-certified battery! Unless one blatantly punctures, submerges or forces an overcharge to a UL certified battery with a wrong aftermarket charger, the chances of it catching fire while charging normally is less than one in a million! One's apartment is far more likely to be burned down by a burning kitchen stove than a UL certified battery explosion by a factor of at least a thousand!
@larrycamilli9589 To be UL certified requires rigurous, strict safety standards and testing including the procedure in which a battery pack is assembled and the sophistication of its BMS system!
This whole issue is a red herring. None of these laws, codes or standards do anything directly to address e-bike battery safety. The only real factor in e-bike battery fire safety is the quality of the cells. Batteries with cells manufactured by one of the "big 4"--Sony, LG, Samsung or Panasonic--are safe. Batteries constructed with cells not from one of those manufacturers are unsafe. What they should be testing is the cells; testing the whole battery pack as shown in your b-roll isn't really testing anything of any true value. I have charged various e-bikes in my garage for the past 7 years, and have never had an issue, as you haven't in your shop, because all of the brands I have purchased use batteries from manufacturers that utilize cells from the big 4. However, some of those batteries were tested under UL standards, some CE, some TUV (which is actually a stricter standard than UL), so technically, most of my bikes are now no longer legal, despite the fact that they are entirely safe, due to a new fire code here in San Francisco, which is similarly, or perhaps more, draconian than the new one in NY. For instance, if you own more than 4 e-bikes, you are required to space your chargers 3 feet apart and conduct all of your charging in a room surrounded by 2-hour firewalls, a monitored fire alarm system and sprinklers. None of these codes apply to charging an EV indoors, despite the fact that there have been many more EV fires than e-bike fires, and EV batteries are orders of magnitude larger. It's interesting that despite the fact there have been many more EV fires, you rarely see those stories in the news. California also made two more of my e-bikes fully illegal this year, by passing a law that makes e-bikes that allow you to load different profiles in your computer to change it to/from a class 1, 2 or 3 bike, which is very convenient if you want to go on a family ride as a class 1, but do a solo errand ride as class 3. This will do nothing to improve public safety, as it does not address the actual issue, which is people who purchase and operate illegal electric mopeds like Sur-rons, Stealth B-52's and HPC's, because they are already ignorant of the law and will continue to be, or they know the law and don't care, and will continue to not care. And it doesn't really matter, because there is zero enforcement. SFPD doesn't even enforce traffic laws. All it does is unnecessarily punish and criminalize companies and customers who are already manufacturing and operating perfectly safe products. So by all means, pursue this route (and I don't think you have a choice, because the government has defined the issue this way legally), and I honestly wish you the best of luck. Understand however, that the other side is not arguing in good faith. The point of these laws is not to improve public safety. The point is for politicians to score points with two audiences: the automotive industry and what I call automotive conservatives--people who love cars and hate bikes and other transit options and who, if they could, would ban all bicycles from the road. The latter are in full-blown Karen hysterics about e-bikes, so placating their fears is a decent way to potentially earn votes. The former makes far more profit than the e-bike industry, and so is a much larger potential donor to US political campaigns. The automotive industry's goal is to make e-bikes as unattractive and inconvenient as possible so that people will prefer EV's and AV's instead. Note that there is no data showing that even illegal eletric mopeds and scooters are a threat to public safety. Annual fatalities caused by bicycles and mopeds combined are in the low double-digits; while cars are responsible for 40k+ deaths every year. Only about 2% of the US population regularly rides bicycles of any kind. Cars of all kinds, including EV's, produce orders of magnitude more emissions from manufacturing, operation and disposal than either traditional bicycles or e-bikes. And yet we are seeing a crack down on e-bikes. So ask yourself what the motivation is. P.S., E-bikes are defined as bicycles federally, as you pointed out, and in nearly every state and local jurisdiction in the US, to such an extent that I think it would be challenging to even locate a jurisdiction where they are not. Bikes like Sur-rons, Stealth B-52's and HPC's are illegal electric mopeds, despite people erroneously labeling them "e-bikes".
You are badly mistaken! Cells do not contain ANY safety features. If you directly short a samsung cell, or puncture it, it is just as unsafe as any other cell. The BMS is what matters in terms of prevention, and the case is the main factor in containment once there is a failure. The BMS is a safety system that sits between the battery cells and the rest of the system, it balances the cell, makes sure they don't get under/over a certain voltage level, that they don't discharge too fast, that they don't overheat, etc. Once you do have an issue ( ex: puncture, direct short of the cells in an accident, whatever ), no amount of external electronics is going to save you, you need to contain the failure in some way with a properly designed casing.
I know several coworkers who buy electric bikes to deliver food, but they don't get the performance they are looking for and they put a bigger battery on them, which is not recommended and that is where the fires start. But the electric wheelchair uses the same lithium battery and there have been no problems.
This issue is beyond just the batteries. A lot of these cheaper import bikes are marketed towards people that really know nothing about bikes and they are trying to throw all these bells and whistles on, but really using cheap parts. They are also pushing way beyond the limit of what is even legally considered an e-bike. So not only are the problems like they were having in New York from batteries going to be an issue. The industry is turning the general public completely against them. We will be facing more issues, such as the one in Key Biscayne Florida. They banned all e-bikes completely. Honestly, a push needs to be given to the industry to quit selling under the name of the e-bike, products that do not fit the legal description of one. Otherwise, these problems will fall on everyone, including the responsible ones that are trying to buy, ride, and live responsibly with an e-bike. I have even heard big TH-cam reviewers. Tell me that a bike can be classified as a class 2and a class 3 at the same time. these people should be called out. Just my thoughts. BTW, you are completely correct that this will take a lawsuit to settle
Interesting. Ebay UK has just announced a ban on private ebike sales (i.e. qualified business seller only) stating battery and EAPC regulations as the cause.
Interesting. I could see how companies could potentially use eBay to skirt regulations. I wonder if that would eventually come to the US. NYC has already put laws in place making it difficult to sell used eBikes.
Most (if not all) of the untested e-bikes enter the Netherland by individuals who buy them of Alibaba or Temu. It is extreme hard to regulate those kinds of Chinese imports.
@@PropelbikesThe authorized testing labs could make it easier to verify if the brand and model have been certified by 1) combining their individual databases into one and 2) make it fully and easily accessible to individuals. As it is now, I have to search databases at SGS, TUV and UL, and each offers different available search criteria, and display differing amounts of information.
This seems completely irrational to me. Our homes are filled with lithium-ion batteries, all of which could cause a fire if they were improperly manufactured or lack charging safety features. If there is an issue with bad batteries, associated with e-bikes, the solution is to investigate the supply chain and root out the bad actors.
Exactly! It’s not as if they banned laptops, phones or tablets when some of their batteries had thermal runaway issues. We now have power banks, power stations, cordless vacuums & power tools, earbuds, headphones, game controllers, etc. with batteries of the same chemistries.
True, portable electronics have much smaller batteries than PEVs, but some yard equipment batteries can be as large or larger, and people who have them have multiple. Then again, they tend to be kept in stand-alone single family homes, so aren’t subject to the same restrictions. The least we can do is what China has, which is crack down nationally on poor-quality PEV batteries. Ironic, given how many of them are made there. That’s the good thing about requiring UL certification. It helps root out bad actors. It does add to the cost of goods, but I think it’s needed, and making it mandatory will make the playing field fair to all companies.
@@chow-chihuang4903 I worry about this ever since I opened a replacement Macbook battery I'd bought from a reputable supplier, which died after the warranty expired. It was made of re-used beat-up under sized cells with the markings mostly washed off, misc spare wires, and a block of rubber to take space and add weight. The soldering could have been done better by a blind child using his feet. I wonder how many of us are sleeping within range of such time b*mbs.
Quick question...looking at potentially purchasing an ebike and wanted to better understand if I need to bring the battery inside to charge during the winter (cold/hot in a Colorado garage) or can I charge it year round in the garage? I have a Onewheel, but just keep it charged in our den inside the house...
Depends on the temperatures the inside of your garage reaches. Your bike’s owners manual should provide both operating and charging temperature ranges. I use a fan to cool the charger and battery while they’re charging, and I use a repeating timer on my watch to remind me to check on them periodically. Some people set their charger on a shut-off timer to prevent overcharging.
You should hook up with V from Powerful Lithium out of Jersey City, NJ, the foremost authority on ebike batteries in the entire country. He builds them & shows in great detail how unscrupulous battery repair shops hack the built-in lithium battery's safety device & then resell them as essentially time bombs waiting to explode. The ones who do that belong behind bars! My ebike turns two yrs old tomorrow, but it's nationally illegal AF. Almost double the legal watts registering at 1,300 max watts, & goes 40 mph... Ariel Rider brand Kepler model, the biggest bang for the buck bad-a$$ ebike (or was when I got it).
Yours isn't illegal because it has an unsafe battery, it's illegal because it is too powerful to be called a bicycle. It is _not_ an ebike. It is classed as a motor vehicle, and needs a license, registration, and insurance just like every other motor vehicle.
Here in UK the last clueless Govt held a consultation before they got kicked out to up the ebikes to 500 watts and allow throttles to 15.5mph. Most bike associations said no and that they were missing the point. What we needed was more protected cycling infrastructure not more powerful motors and in turn batteries where the unregulated ones without BMSs cause the fires.
If you are crazy, you're my kind of crazy! Always fighting the good fight. I wish you success in your suit. As a NYC apartment dweller & DIY e-bike(s) owner I hate the new UL requirements. I was paranoid about batteries so I researched heavily before buying. Now some of the best built batteries are unavailable to me:( I don't think most people will do that level of research or pay the premium for properly built batteries when they can get a battery for up to 50% less, so (reluctantly) I SUPPORT THE UL REQUIREMENTS.
It’s the charger, not the battery, not the bike. Stay with me here. If you use a low power charger, you don’t cook the battery. You solve the problem. I get this is not what folks like, but low and slow charging, with a published standard solves the problem. The rider charges over night. 5 to 7 hours. Who gives a crap, you’re sleeping. Fast charging is bad. It is hazardous because it is bad. I’ve always had a low voltage, low amp charger, low HEAT charger. The real enemy is quick charging. The answer is maybe another battery or another charger, or both. 14 years on an ebike.
I have two euc's and some electric skate boards. I like to store them in the garage in metal garbage cans. It would be nice to be able to conveniently remove the batteries and store and charge in a fire proof place. Then store the Eboards and electric unicycles in the house with out the batteries. Unfortunately removing the batteries is not that easy. It's the batteries we should be concerned about not the vehicle.
Also think ADA. Denying access arbitrarily violates many precedents! Awesome for you! This same approach needs to be applied to land access. It is totally silly to ban access based on ebike non-ebike, there is no difference to the land and trail.
We agree with you, and I feel that the building owner should have to create a bicycle parking area, with charging available. Saw some great ones in Holland too. Josh K.
I live in the Netherlands (Holland) and overhere biking is the way to go when traveling to and in our the cities. The problem with the e-bikes is the fire hazards (battery run down) which can occur, even when it’s a reputable brand fire is possible through unnoticeable damage / dropping or just because in production things got screwed. Battery (Lithium) fires are high in energy difficult to put out, and produce deathly gases like hydrogen fluoride (HF), that is why over here we are not allowed to charge electric bikes in the big (15k) bicycle parking garages we have over here. There are experiments where charging of the battery takes place out of the bike and the battery is placed in a enclosed space (semi bank vault) where if fire breaks out, extinguishing the fire is done by removing oxygen and toxic gases. Overhere e-bikes are a somewhat controversial topic, a lot of accidents occur due to inadequate usage and antisocial / immature behavior of the users and by others (fellow road users) due to the lack of correlation between the noted physical efforts and the real world speed in witch the e bike moves through the traffic the big speed differences makes it hard to anticipate. Not an easy discussion, yes biking is the way to go, improves health, makes our cities livable etc. but does everyone need an e-bike not the best for improving your health if you are able to pedal normally, costs are high to the environment (producing batteries, chargers, motors, network and power to charge the batteries and after end of life your left over with so much stuff (like lithium) a normal bike wouldn’t bring to the table. On the other hand as all those people would otherwise have bought a car buying an e-bike is the better option for health and our planet.
Liking the idea of buildings having safe charging cages. Think of lockable personal post office mailboxes. The charging cages would be installed in a weather protected fire safe location, with each box having a plug. This only works of course with bikes that have a removable battery.
It's the insurers that need to feel safe with these products, more so than the building owners. Chasing after building owners first is coming at the situation from the wrong angle, IMHO. Manufacturers need to team up and work with each other, as well as legislators, and major insurers, to create a universal certified standard AND registration system, that shows that their e-mobility product(s) meet a given level of safety. And that registration and certification needs to be tied to that bicycle and its charging system…beyond a mere UL certification. Until then, if an insurer says they won’t cover damages involving a e-bike/etc., then the building owner have no choice but to start banning them.
2 things, my battery went off while charging in August. There was no tampering, no overcharging. The battery was 3 years old. As far as i know, the BMS crapped out. I own a Shanshan bumble bee rack battery. 2nd, I tried to apply to the city battery swap program, and because i wasn't specifically a food delivery driver, I was rejected.
Well i don't live in New York,i been hearing that this has become a real problem for many riders. While owning a car, paying insurance and increased gas costs keep going higher, riding Ebikes are much cheaper. It would be nice if buildings set aside Ebike parking lots along with charging outlets for a small monthly fee to the tenants that need to use it. I ride my Ebike 16 miles everyday and its good excerise for your health and your pocket at the sametime. Also UL listed Ebikes are better to minimize risk of fires 🔥 as well. Another idea is to have a portable POD outside the building for storage too with built in electric outlets as those can be rented by anyone with a monthly fee. Great video by the way. Thank you.
The chemistry is the problem so until the technology improves to a perfectly fail-safe level, liability insurance should be part of the solution. A million dollar personal liability umbrella policy is like $120/year. I used to charge an ebike in a multi-tenant building, and confirmed my policy would cover any damage caused by that.
@@Propelbikes Thank you for doing this. The risks are crazy right now but blanket banning all e-bikes is clearly wrong. Some buildings are just electrically unsound. Some people do build wildly unsafe battery packs and e-bikes. Certifications underwritten by insurers are how society deals with most risks. Bikers should generally have some kind of liability coverage for more likely risks anyway - like hitting someone, being falsely accused of it, or being sued by someone who bought, borrowed or even stole your bike and crashed it. Maybe allowing building owners to require appropriate insurance for any energy dense power source is a good compromise.
There is no other motorized device with higher efficiency than an e-bike. Snow, cars , theft and other dangers to riders aside for 85% of my travel I can use an e bike. No infrastructure in this country to allow a nation wide switch of that sort but they work to complete the task. Luckily here I can get to work and grocery shop a full cart of groceries back home by e-bike with the use of a carrier. Doctor, dentist, hair cut, meals out all turn into an easy cruise no gasoline. Besides how freaking fun they are they can also fill the need for much of the travel America needs done.
If you start the discussion by asking why buildings want to ban e-bikes, you can work toward a solution. The why is easy: e-bike charging systems have been known to cause fires. That makes it easy for an anti-bike culture to call for their ban. The overall problem with e-bikes is two-fold: shoddy products and illegal modification. People want to create electric motorcycles -- machines that are able to go a lot faster without the need to pedal than the law allows -- and badge them as Class 3 e-bikes. If a machine can carry its pilot at 30-40 mph without pedal input, it's clearly not a bicycle, nor is it a mobility device. It's a motorcycle, and it must be treated as such. A vehicle with that much power is unlikely to pass the UL e-bike battery charging standard.
@@TommyJonesProductions The answer is in my post. It's because we live in an anti-bike culture in the US. Cars rule; bikes are in their way. Of course that view is ridiculous, but it's prevalent.
Viewing this from Toronto with interest. While we haven't had the same scale of problems with fires, if banning e-bikes from buildings became normalized in NYC I would expect a movement to follow suit here. I hope you're able to keep NYC moving forward, I think cities across Turtle Island will feel the ripples from that momentum.
It should be noted that the federal definition is a commerce definition, covering interstate trade/commerce and not a “road legal” definition that is upto individual jurisdictions to define and enforce.
I live in the Netherlands (Holland) and overhere biking is the way to go when traveling to and in our the cities. The problem with the e-bikes is the fire hazards (battery run down) which can occur, even when it’s a reputable brand fire is possible through unnoticeable damage / dropping or just because in production things got screwed. Battery (Lithium) fires are high in energy difficult to put out, and produce deathly gases like hydrogen fluoride (HF), that is why over here we are not allowed to charge electric bikes in the big (15k) bicycle parking garages we have over here. There are experiments where charging of the battery takes place out of the bike and the battery is placed in a enclosed space (semi bank vault) where if fire breaks out, extinguishing the fire is done by removing oxygen and toxic gases. Overhere e-bikes are a somewhat controversial topic, a lot of accidents occur due to inadequate usage and antisocial / immature behavior of the users and by others (fellow road users) due to the lack of correlation between the noted physical efforts and the real world speed in witch the e bike moves through the traffic the big speed differences makes it hard to anticipate. Not an easy discussion, yes biking is the way to go, improves health, makes our cities livable etc. but does everyone need an e-bike not the best for improving your health if you are able to pedal normally, costs are high to the environment (producing batteries, chargers, motors, network and power to charge the batteries and after end of life your left over with so much stuff (like lithium) a normal bike wouldn’t bring to the table. On the other hand as all those people would otherwise have bought a car buying an e-bike is the better option for health and our planet.
What do you think about a compromise that says a building is unable to ban ebikes, but they are able to mandate a fire enclosure for the batteries of the bike that they would have to provide or at least help with acquiring so in the event a faulty battery does catch fire in an old building that doesn't meet modern fire specifications, it will be contained to the box and not spread to the rest of the building. Also, for full disclosure, I don't have any skin in the game here. I don't live in an apartment building or in new york, I don't own an ebike and have no plans to acquire one in the next few years (they cost too much money and I make do well enough with my human powered bike)
This is a prime example of laws/regulation not keeping pace with technology. If the bikes meet safety standards there should be no reason to ban them. Many buildings have parking garages for cars, vehicles with a large tank of flamable liquid. We feel safe with cars because we know they are built to a certain safety standard. Bikes should be no different.
I think it's the size of the battery and the potential hazard. There also seems to be more low quality un-tested batteries in the eBike space though too.
had an Aventure here, and have ran that bike's battery on a custom-build, that batt was happy as can be regardless of what it powered as it's properly made and all. i made sure my end [the custom build ebike] was wired properly and had no issues as well..
I called a well known bike company. I asked the lady if they gonna start selling there e bikes in New York City again she said it because of the batteries, I asked her ain’t your company batteries UL certified she said yes, then she said but I think it’s the motor too….i was sad after that 🤷🏽♀️
I'm a strong advocate for safe battery charging methods directly in the bike shed. I would even go as far as makiy it possible to ban charging ebike batteries in the apartments, IF there's safe and affordable method of storing and charging them inside the building in concentrated manner. This is the way I think we should be heading. I was also about to pitch you the idea of banning untested batteries being sold and imported altogether, but it seems that's already in the process. That would really be the best case scenario for everyone here.
Appartments need lockers outside in safe no fire area for charging batteries without the bike, the bike can be taken in the apartment without the battery. The lockers could have AC outlets to charge the battery in the outside lockers for the removed e-bike battery.
Everything is dangerous to some degree so yes what's needed is sensible precautions to limit the risk to acceptable levels. Here in UK I'm lucky enough to have a garage that I store and charge my ebikes in and personally I would be very wary of charging indoors. Having said that we all have phones and laptops and I fly RC planes all have lithium batteries, but they are all quality and protected circuits etc. Note I just got rid of a gas cooker after finding a gas leak in the pipe under the floor in kitchen, capped it off at entry apart from boiler and using electric , having tested my house wiring I found some dodgy connections which could have caused a fire and sorted those. I was a landlord for a while and Tennant left the house with burn holes in the carpet and smoke damage on ceiling etc, kitchen had obviously been flooded recently too, so I understand the concerns of a landlord. Leaving a expensive ebikes in a dedicated building would require decent security if that was the suggested answer. Nothing here has an easy fix/answer but banning is only going to serve to keep the car industry going which is a worse thing imho.
For starters if you opt to charge your EV battery indoors it should always be in a safer area where the charger can properly cool down and ALWAYS be ON A TIMER to limit the charging times and to ensure that the power is completely disconnected when complete
Chris, I totally agree with you. However, here's the rub. I've been involved in too much litigation to mention (mostly professionally). When you go down the road of litigation, you have to look at it from the standpoint of the third party (i.e. judge or jury). The building owner stands there and tells the judge his insurance carrier will cancel his insurance unless he prohibits e-bikes. What's a judge going to do? The judge will see the building owner as between a rock and a hard place. It has nothing to do with what's right or fair. You will have to have an answer for that situation. Something strong enough to compel a judge to make the right decision.
Thank you for this presentation. Users of micro-mobility devices are people who have adapted to the space constraints that exist in any very-large city. Use of micro-mobility devices should be encouraged. I understand people's concerns about battery fires. There might be a profitable market for various sizes of fire-proof pre-cast concrete micro-mobility-device storage vaults that could be purchased, delivered by flat-bed truck, and placed in a suitable above-ground location within the property boundaries of private residences, apartment buildings, and self-storage facilities, but outside of and a safe distance away from those buildings.
I worry that a judge might not side with you on this question. There is precedent for a building owner to prevent residents from bringing certain things (like pets, grow lights) into a building. And, while you may be correct that most of an e-bike is a bike, the battery, itself, could be seen as a separate thing. For this reason, I favor a legislative approach that addresses the matter in a more nuanced way than a judge could. If I were a judge adjudicating a case involving a single plaintiff, I'd decide the case on the narrowest grounds possible. So you could end up with a decision that a building owner cannot ban the particular brand and model of e-bike involved in the suit. To avoid a ruling on those narrow grounds, you might need to bring a class action suit, which would require many similarly-situated plaintiffs. Assembling that class comes with its own hurdles. But, even then, a judicial ruling is ordinarily a relatively blunt instrument where a scalpel is really needed. For example, it might make sense to allow a building owner to require that batteries over a certain size (and made of a certain material) be stored and charged in a special part of the building. Or maybe a building owner should be able to require a certificate from the local fire department that a particular battery is appropriately tested and safe for storage in the building. These are not regulatory structures that a judge could impose through an opinion and, yet, they are the sort of things that would balance competing reasonable concerns.
You’re being way too charitable to these obviously disingenuous bad actors who are clearly aware that the city could ban bikes that don’t meet the fire safety regulations only.
My workplace currently has policies on storing e-bikes or charging them at work. They are completely happy to house electric cars and charge them in the same locations.
Never had a LI battery blow up or catch fire. Only get very hot. That includes my E Trike which I immediately unplugged. People need to be careful and vigilant when changing these type of batterys.
@Propel - Why not have a fireproof locker where people can store and charge their battery? The bike without the battery can be brought into the apartment.
I own Bosch made e-bikes. Bosch designs the entire electrical system, which includes the battery and charger, the controller and the motor. Bosch is UL approved. I suspect that the e-bikes are constructed with random off the shelf components may be the problem.
My batteries never get more than slightly warm to the touch, though the chargers without internal cooling fans do get very warm to the touch (48V, so output 54.6V @ 2A). I set the charger on a small cooling rack and use a fan to blow air over both the charger and battery as they charge. That keeps the charger much cooler. The 48V 3A charger I got with one ebike has a cooling fan so it never gets more than slightly warm. I use an external fan over both battery and charger anyway for extra peace of mind.
I would support laws that restrict storage to fire resistant areas or facilities. Like open areas and parking garages. I would also support limited security deposits for apartments and public housing for storage of all electric vehicles.
I am legally disabled and allowed by the ADA act to use my OPD-MD on any public land open to the public, or any private land open to t the public. My OPD-MD happens to be a 2 wheel ebike with a 750 watt motor, it is not as wide as some wheel chairs and 3 wheel mobility devices found in Walmart available to the public for free, . It is against t he ADA law for any public official to ask me what is my exact disability, providing I show proof of my disability decision by any state, federal government, such as disability award letter from social security . I am a senior citizen with 50 years of motorcycle experience with endorsement on my license, I also carry a Combined liability policy of $500k on both of my OPD-MD s. In Florida there are local city ordinances banning ebikes in congested pedestrian areas, which in my case is against the law. I want to join a coalition of disabled ebike riders to change these elegal laws with no exceptions for the disability act.
I live in Vancouver Canada, grew up here. My whole life we never had Forrest fires and smoke in the city...now it's every year the last 8 years. Global warming is real. If e bikes stop carbon emissions and slow Global warming then it's a must!!!!
Make sure to add this to the lawsuit: It is a scientific fact, that batteries are not supposed to be kept in frigid temperatures, as the cold changes battery chemistry and causes irreperable damage to the cells. By banning e-bikes, the people doing the banning are inherently increasing the rate of battery failure, by forcing people to ignore battery safety guidelines. When it starts to approach freezing as winter comes, one really should be taking the bike indoors, or if possible to remove it, the battery at the very least. Try to get it said by a judge, that if anyone actively attempts to stop you from storing your e-bike correctly and as designed, they have to pay for any damage incurred. Remind them that e-bike batteries are not cheap, by any means, with the cheapest ones costing $400-600. Seek judgements which say the people who cause the damage can be held liable, as if they grabbed a key and scraped a car. Their actions cause damage, they pay.
Also the fear mongering of e-bike fires is insane. Battery testing is not fool-proof. Regulators gave Samsung the go-ahead for their phones, and look what happened with their Note series. Batteries ignite sometimes, that's just a matter of fact. Thus if you want to ban e-bikes, you have to also ban electric vehicles (many of which are being imported from China, and likely don't meet US safety standards), you'd have to ban laptops, smartphones... literally ANYTHING with a battery. Size of batteries doesn't matter. The battery in a TV remote or smartphone can can cause just as much damage as a car or e-bike battery. It ignites and doesn't get put out promptly, the building is gone. It's as simple as that.
This is another shot being fired in the war against the poor. If you are carless, an electric bicycle can dramatically enhance your mobility and improve your health, if used properly. Yes, they are expensive too but far less than purchasing, insuring, maintaining, and fueling a car. Yes, it is important that the E-bikes are good quality and being operated safely. Although most E-bikes have removable batteries, the lack of bicycle storage and danger of theft really forces owners to take these expensive bikes to their apartments.
19:14 how can a motorized bike improve your health? if anything it worsens it....u dont get the upside health benefits of a bicycle but u get all the downside...fulltime exposure to polluted air.
@@ronrollo5023 I too shake my head when I see lazy e-bike riders just using throttle and not pedaling. But many do use the "pedalec" style of e-bike riding which requires pedaling. Other aspects of bike riding are often overlooked like improving your balance, awareness of surroundings, fresh air, getting on and off the bikes, lifting them. Even an e-bike can force you to be much more physically active than you would be driving a car. I happen to have a mechanical bike, but my 65 year old knees are beginning to bother me. So I see an e-bike in the future extending my bike riding life for many more years.
@@ronrollo5023 what happens if/when the cars/trucks are used far less, once ebikes have taken over near 90+% the short-tripping that is done in cars currently? and yes, they are, by far, more efficient and less maintenance-intensive than a car in that short-tripping role. even EV cars aren't quite as good in the short-tripping role, though they are better than any fuel-burning car..
Also I'm a cycling club member and a responsible, seasoned, safe cyclist. I was banned from a bike tour in NJ because my e-bike is class 2 to 3. I can actually ride it without the battery, it's rather hard since it's 47 ish lbs without the battery, but they said No way! 😞 Not the same issue but a real one.
I’m all for e-bikes but we have to admit that it is unreasonable to expect bicycles to be identified as UL listed vs not. Not to say cops can’t learn a thing or two but enforcement will be an issue. Like all other laws, they’re designed to be an umbrella over everything. Few incidence of fires or mishandling of batteries ruins it for the majority. That’s the world we live in.
I FULLY reject the idea of "it has to do with the quality of the product, not an inherent problem with the technology". That line of thinking almost always comes with banning ways that working class people find cheap ways to travel. They said the same thing about inspections in NY. Cheap cars are too dangerous.. And then they made CA compliant cats a requirement to pass inspection. A $25 inspection and a $50 fix turned into the reason I had to take my car off the road. A 6k fix to replace both of my cats on an otherwise perfectly running vehicle. Im fully against any safety measure on working class transportation UNLESS it is funded by the state... and the state increases taxes on luxury vehicles and million plus dollar properties to pay for it. Otherwise, theyre just going to keep legislating the working man into debt forever.
Pointing the tested battery problem. As a Latino, I can say that Latino ebike users always choose the cheapest way possible, chinese chargers, chinese batteries. It doesn't matter if it explodes, if it's cheap, good for them. I wish they could see this video so we don't have problems in the future with the bans.
Make the batteries removable, only allow charging and storing them in a fire safe box. No amount of testing or engineering will make a lithium battery 100% safe, just the drawback of storing a bunch of potential energy in such a tiny package. A laptop has what, maybe 100Wh? Ebikes probably pack 3-10 times as much or even more. That's the difference between burning down your kitchen table and burning down the entire block. Toasters are not inherently unsafe, nor are space heaters or other household appliances. Nothing you find in a home is even remotely comparable.
Second comment: In case it needs to be said, municipalities and states ARE NOT free to do or legislate something different than what the US federal government has already legislated or defined. The reason is because of something called "preemption" in law. In other words, if federal law speaks on a subject of law, as here E-bikes or E-scooters (e.g., Surrons without pedals), even if state law or municipal ordinance already exists, federal law pre-empts or "trumps" state law. This is in the federal Constitution under Article VI, known as the "Supremacy Clause." That said, here in Michigan, because federal statute and federal definitions have already defined E-bikes as "low-speed electric bicycles" which have _functioning pedals,_ Michigan exempted E-bikes from the Michigan Vehicle Code, as is proper. Therefore, there is no debate with regards to the question, "Are E-bikes bicycles?" Because that question, as a matter of law, is settled. E-bikes are bicycles, and are to be treated as bicycles. This means E-bikes cannot be restricted from trails or other pathways bicycles can be used on. They are also, very importantly, not a "motor vehicle" as defined by law. Michigan law, per the definition of "motor vehicle," specifically EXEMPTS E-bikes from the definition of "motor vehicle." Which means that any public signage for a trail or pathway with a "motor vehicle" prohibition DOES NOT apply to E-bikes. I say this because I have come across ignorant and errant people who erroneously think, out of ignorance, that E-bikes, because they have a motor, somehow are a "motor vehicle" and therefore are prohibited. E-bikes are not prohibited because they are not "motor vehicles." Edit: Given the federal government already governs the importation of AAA, AA, C, D, 9V, 6V small engine, 12V car/truck/motorcycle, and large industrial batteries (Komatsu makes industrial equipment like electric forklift trucks), I would argue that E-bike batteries are already covered under federal law, since the component E-bike battery cells, made up of AA or larger batteries, already covers those. The same goes for 18/20V electric tool batteries, like electric drill, electric impact gun, and electric ratchet batteries as well.
I think you’re going about this the right way because you’re taking babies at like when you’re charging the battery you can do the quick charge right which means it doesn’t give a good fully charge but you can do the trickle charge which means you’re kinda charging it in layers, which means it’s a stronger type of charge that’s where the old batteries used to bethe slow way they’re trying figure out really what’s at the bottom level of why this is happening and then moving a couple inches up and figuring out where it is there so it’s easier to track and it’s easier to argue in a courtroom. Very good idea.
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Smartest take on this that I've heard. As a native NYer who spends a lot of time in rural America, let me tell you that auto and oil companies are terrified of ebikes. Humans across the spectrum understand that ebikes are true car replacements -- maybe not for every trip, but for many trips. We see people using them to grocery shop, take laundry to the laundromat, meet friends, go fishing -- all the things that used to require one car or multiple cars.
Of course the auto industry wants to stoke fear. And the recipients of their advertising dollars, a.k.a. local TV news stations, are complicit in the fear mongering.
Even a few years ago, auto manufacturers were wary of e-bikes.
I participated in a forum on sustainable transport during an online conference in 2020 or 2021, and I could tell the representatives from auto manufacturers didn’t like when I and another participant were talking about how much we loved our e-bikes and what we were using them for.
They could easily get on board and get in the market, or provide ways to combine the two. GM made an attempt and promptly canceled what looked like decent folding e-bikes. Of course, the main issue with their concepts were the proposed prices. I don’t know why they spec them so high when a more basic spec will do, especially if they or their components (like the battery) are well-integrated with the car.
@@chow-chihuang4903 Wow, I did not know about the GM Ariv project. They look like awesome bikes. But I guess GM is just happy selling 7000-lb gas pickups and the 9000-lb Hummer EV.
I just bought one so I don't have to drive everywhere I go. If I can go around 10-15 miles without taking my car.
I don't see e-bikes or bicycles in general threatening the profits and sales of automobile companies. Americans largely want to have a car for themselves. It's standard and expected. Mostly that's true for even avid cyclists, with e-bikes or regular bikes. The mentality for bikes for utility use or commuting is simply an eccentric and uncommon one, excepting for teenagers or college students especially. Using them for down to earth and practical trips outside of dedicated exercise fits me to a tee, but I see myself as unusual, and even with me, I've only been doing it for a couple of years now for anything other than dropping off a bill in the mail. It's a mindset change that doesn't always happen. Probably far less likely for someone who didn't ride bikes a lot as a kid or didn't use them for school commutes. However, I still want my pick-up truck for some trips or for not being marooned in the city where I live.
I agree it won’t have as much impact on auto sales as the manufacturers fear, though it will have some.
What e-bikes and other PEVs will do is reduce the use of autos for shorter trips, especially solo or duo trips when you don’t need to haul a bunch of heavy cargo.
But I guess that would impact the sales of fossil fuels for ICEVs. I, for one, since I got a cargo ebike, and having a Costco open where I can get to it via bike somewhat safely, have greatly reduced the use of my car. I still use my car for longer trips or hauling heavy or bulky items that would be difficult to fit on the cargo bike or a cargo trailer, thus I have held onto it. I guess it will last longer, so I won’t be purchasing a replacement anytime soon. 😅
Thank you for taking a stand for all of us who can’t! Thank you!
Thanks! I'm doing what I can!
Every e-biker should stand and be counted with this guy, let the politicians know that this is our right to choose what we want to use for a daily commute or recreational activity, either they can side with lobbyists or side with the people who VOTE.
Exactly! We allow toasters in apartments, but not just any toaster. Same with batteries - laptops, phones, AAs, and now ebikes.
I think the only difference here is these products are a little bit more mature and they actually do have certain safety and testing requirements. In the US we work a little bit backwards and that we wait until there’s enough issues before actually making safety standards or requirement and this is one way that it’s backfired a little bit for us here
The main difference is that a failed lithium battery has a way higher chance of burning down a building than a failed toaster. This is because of the insanely high temperatures lithium batteries can reach. EV's for example reach 2760C which will melt through either steel, aluminum or concrete like butter. With a toaster, even if it fails (which is very rare) it's not very likely to start a fire. Don't get me wrong, toasters do present risks and do start about 2000 fires every year but think about it. Virtually EVERY house has a toaster and uses them frequently. If EVERY house had cheap e-bikes running lithium cell technology you would see some big trends. Trust me.
And don't get me wrong. I think it's terrible that people are being restricted in terms of personal mobility but I'm being realistic about this technology. It can and does burn down large buildings. We need to look at using better technology or simply revert to NiMH batteries which are virtually 100% safe even if you put a nail through them or burn them with a jet lighter.
It's not our fault it's the fault of the massive corporations who have chosen to adopt this stupid dangerous tech in mass. Better range isn't a good thing when you lose that fantastic thing we call peace of mind. I have 3 EUC's and I am always aware that if one were to go off it will most likely vent in the form of ultra hot 20 foot flames that last several minutes.
I've seen several videos of it happening. It's literally like having a military grade flamethrower emptying it's entire load. For a house to survive this it would be a miracle. These events could easily set entire buildings ablaze.
Thank you, needs to be discussed 👍
The problem is this allowing or not allowing crap. It's personal private property. If it fits in the door somehow then that's it. Government or the city should have no say in what you have or what you do. If it's the owner, then that's a different story. He ought to be able to filter the people and things in his building regardless of his personal prejudices, or hang ups, or morality standards. If the owner is a jerk to you then find another landlord. Exact same concept with banning tenants from having a smoke in their own place; Unreasonable and outrageous for the city. Unreasonable for the owner also, albeit within his rights since it's his building.
When the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 was exploding, people were blaming that device.
When some low quality batteries explode, people are blaming all electric bikes.
Something everyone seems to be overlooking is Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (LifePo4). I've been running a DIY Lithium Phosphate Battery on my ebike almost three years and over 4,000 miles and about 300 charge cycles, and it's still at 90% of new capacity. LifePo4 costs half of a comparable capacity cheap Li-Ion Battery, lasts up to 10X longer and charges three times faster. The only down-side is that the Life04 battery battery is about 25% heavier, or about 5lbs more than a comparable Li-Ion Battery. Given the safety (LifePo4 does not self-combust like Li-Ion) lower cost, environmental and longevity advantages of LifeP04 over the downsides of a Li-ion battery, 5lbs is nothing.
Also less performance in cold weather, but better in hot. Looks interesting.
@@purpleblueunicorn I've been comparing similar Li-Ion and LFP packs in summer and winter and have observed the range fall-off to be about the same on both types of cells. Li-Ion seems to have noticeably better response when cold but when the LFP packs generate a bit of heat the performance returns. IF the LFP packs and Ebike are stored inside a heated home (something I'd not do with Li-Ion packs ), and are in slightly insulated cases I don't notice any performance degradation when operated in cold temps.
Last year I installed some thermal pads in two of my LFP packs that heat them up to about 80F and plugged them for about 15mins before a ride and they perform very well and maintain that temp as long as a drawing current.
@@jackoneil3933 Very nice, surprised this option is not offered more often, but I think the added range and lower price will always win in consumer's eyes. Even Li-Ion could be better controlled with good BMS and individual cell monitoring and rebalancing and few electric devices except very high-end will implement those features. Maybe these will become standard in the future.
Solid state batteries coming but that still won’t fix the problem. It’s simple. Every non compliant battery that comes into North America from somewhere else get sent back to where it came from. Don’t let them in! illegal to import, illegal to sell. Then you don’t have to worry about which bike is safe. Introduce a rebate to return non compliant batteries for disposal.
Thanks for all your hard work. I ride an e-bike in Australia, often long-distance and overnight charging is req. Riding to work and locking up in a cycle compound, power points were installed there just for e-Bikes, after all, we have thousands of li-ion powered laptops thoughout the building.
I have long suggested Govts must become responsible for what is imported and allowed for sale.
I sidestepped all the cheapies and bought a Cube pedelec with a Bosch system.
Can we please get a universal charger. That would help out so much as well.
Unfortunately there is little consistency and standards on the battery shows so I'm not sure the universal charger will solve it.
USB-C has a flimsy-looking PCB in the middle of the port and requires a voltage booster in the battery. Otherwise, it’d be a good standard connector as it can negotiate pin-assignment (so it doesn’t matter which way you plug in the cable), voltage and power, at least for low-speed charging. Most USB-C chargers are capped at 20V and 3A (60W) or 5A (100W), with some rated up to 48V and 5A (240W).
I don’t know how water-tight the ports can be.
@@Propelbikes I know but maybe one day the could have something like electric cars have. It's a hope that I know won't happen. We should at least hope the companies stop changing their chargers. I am looking at you Bosch
Deploy free power outlet for Chargers
@@chow-chihuang4903 i do not think usb-c pd can really handle ebikes [42~54.6, if not 58.8+v at full charge] all that well, i'd be more interested in a standardized charger connection like NACS here in the us or CCS in the EU/UK for the ev car/truck side for an example.. also, usb-c does not have any boost converters in the cable, the electronics in the cable are just a way to say 'this cable is ok for 5a current at a given voltage' and/or say it is ok to do other things, like displayport alt-mode.. also agree that Ted Cruz is being an idiot and ACTIVELY HARMING our safety and ability to get properly made/tested batteries for ebikes/escoots and similar such over a mere proposal, it never made it past that from what i am hearing.
You run a company that sells e-bikes in NYC, I would think you do have a case for a lawsuit in that this bans are affecting your business (fewer ppl can safely store their bikes in buildings = less business for you).
That said, finding someone who has been directly impacted works too. Maybe two lawsuits? One from your business being impacted and one from a person who was banned from bringing their bike?
Me and my wife currently live in Co-Op City Bronx, New York. I have a Trek Allan’s + 8S which is a pedal assist 28 miles an hour with the botch motor and I have been unable to ride my bike due to this exact same reason and I’m sure you’re aware that this bikes pass all safety standards I would almost be honored We have talked to the Co-Op City board and been denied outright and was looking for a legal option
Just ride it bro. No one is gonna stop u. The police won't even know.
@@freeflymonkey
Co-Op City has its own own police force, and they are constantly posted in front of my building which I do appreciate. And sometime they also in the lobby
@@carltonbacot5375 there's a link in the description of the video if you want to volunteer
Carlton have you received a warning from co-op police or a ticket? I’ve seen folk riding their e-bikes over there.
@@vincedemo2752 they have $1000 fine posted on the window soon as you walk up to the door and I did talk to a police officer once stopped me
Ban space heaters, I don't even know the stats but it has to be more people
Also a great example of how safety features can make things safer. It's actually pretty hard to start a fire at a space heater nowadays but people have older ones
they are in most council housing
Ban cars, alcohol, cigarettes and fast food. Those are the places you can get easy wins lol
The problem with banning space heaters, which I agree can be dangerous, is that landlords often don't turn on the heat to save money and tenants often freeze. It's miserable. Sure, there are heating laws in NYC but who has the money to hire a lawyer to sue the landlord?
Ban gas heaters now electric heaters, good luck in the cold
I would love to volunteer for this lawsuit, but I don’t yet own an e-bike because of a ban at my building. It’s kind of a catch 22. Thanks Chris for taking this on
That's a direct impact and probably qualifies you to volunteer. How much are you spending on alternate forms of transportation that could be reduced with an e-bike? If you're using a regular acoustic bike instead, how much time is it costing you? In the latter case, you are spending more calories (=higher food costs) and likely more time traveling/showering, etc. than you otherwise would with an e-bike.
I have to agree with DizzyDiddy. You sound like a perfect candidate to bring this suit. You are a law abiding citizen being adversely affected by uninformed rules.
@@DizzyDiddy you’re correct, this is a direct impact. I commute 3hrs/day by subway to work. My commute could probably be reduced by 1hr with an e-bike. I’d also be getting exercise and saving $72/month I spend on train fare. @propelbikes, how do we connect?
@@willgavillan there's a link in the description of the video if you want to volunteer
@@DizzyDiddythanks, missed that. Done
As far as I understand it building insurers are part of the problem where they don't cover the fires resulting from ebikes. There was a recent thread on r/MicromobilityNYC where this was discussed in the comments as well.
Great video. Something to consider is building/apartment owners might be seeing restrictions come from their insurance carriers/policies. If they don’t restrict e-bikes in buildings, much like charcoal grills on balconies, they will lose coverage and have to potentially pay more due to higher fire risk.
And if insurance carriers are placing restrictions on landlords, it's because they've seen too many fires caused by e-bike batteries. They don't impose restrictions just for the sake of being difficult. They may not consider the UL listed status reliable enough to allay their fears.
@@CaliforniaArchitect UL= Underwriters Laboratory: underwriting is an important function of insurance companies do. Insurance companies started UL 120 years ago in order to lessen the risks of electric house fires (think about the state of electricity at that time!) so it would be ironic if they were refusing to accept UL certification now...
@@CaliforniaArchitect no they love being difficult. Being difficult gets them money by allowing them to deny claims.
In Maryland, the state passed a law that prohibits co-ops, HOAs, and condo buildings from prohibiting charging e-bikes in the building. The law was originally written for EVs and the bike people amended it this year.
I suspect the issue is pure fear, and little fact.
Thank you for this update. The issues that happen in NYC first will be everywhere at some point. While painful to work through first in the big city, it'll help set the standards going forward. Whenever I've seen stories of eBike fires, it's always with cheap knock off eBikes & batteries. You just don't know what you're getting and the quality and safety standards are just not their. While the eBikes @ Propel can seem expensive, the quality is definitely there in all the brands you sell. I'm still not totally convinced lithium based batteries are the end solution for big vehicles (especially cards and trucks), they were originally meant for portable electronics, but it was the developed tech that was available...
6:16 "we're limiting access to that because somebody doesn't want to do a little bit more work..."
I love how you said this. If this ban goes through then the only logical next step is to outright ban cars from all urban areas since pedestrian fatalities are much more common than deaths from ebike battery-ignited apartment fires. Automakers don't want to do a little bit more work to make their products safer for pedestrians, so it's only fair for the law to apply this logic equally to them as well.
Thanks for your support! Definitely some parallel logic which many wouldn't want to see followed.
Are Tesla's being banned from charging in garages?
I haven't seen that.
EV's have been having similar issues. Some HOA's (Not that I am willing to live under one of those) are banning parking structure presence and charging of EV's.
Keep up the good work we must keep these things available for this country and the people if an e-bike is your only Transportation can you force the apartment building people to go to court because they are depriving you the ability to move around town if your e-bike is your only form of transportation then they are forcing you out of your apartment??
This!
I got a long, multi-modal commute and an e-bike (UL certified one) is crucial for riding during the winter and fleeing from any potential danger in the city!
I completely agree: UL Listed e-bikes should not be banned from buildings. That should address the safety concerns. Enforcement could still be an issue, given that NYC has a pretty large number of cheap non-UL Listed e-bikes already on the streets, so it could be confusing to both riders and building managers exactly which bikes and batteries can and can’t go inside.
I can see a market of fake UL stickers
That is a temporary problem, as non-UL listed bikes gradually die off. NYC has banned the sale of new non-UL listed bikes. And China created new regulations that will mean even new DTC Chinese bikes will have much safer batteries and electrical systems.
I really like your idea of a guide for landlords, to give them knowledge and perspective. There’s such a disconnect in knowledge about UL testing and ratings, and what that testing implies. It’s disappointing that our Federal governments (Canadian here) don’t prioritize the testing of electrical batteries/devices coming in to North America. Our insurance companies also have a responsibility to investigate and test batteries, rather than make the blanket statement that they’re all fire hazards.
Thanks for your well thought-out and informative overview. I hope you get your volunteer!
The Amazons, eBays, & Walmarts need to be held accountable for selling cheap unsafe batteries.
Ted Cruz is an unreasonable person, so expecting any reasonable legislation with his support is not going to happen.
Maybe you should just rent someplace on your own to set up the scenario that you need.
So, play politics... How droll...
With the popularity of e-bikes and the world they open, I’ve been waiting for someone in the industry to take up a case. I mean, if you can’t ride it certain places, and you can’t store your private property on your premises, the industry has a vested interest in getting the laws right, or the market will die.
For sure!
A problem with cycle storage is that so far all the solutions I see, including ones frequently shown from the Netherlands, are ableist. Disabled cyclists exist. People who ride e-assist on trikes, quads, bakfiets, etc. exist. The storage pods and racks are almost always only designed for abled cyclists riding standard upright e-bikes. (They only have room for standard upright bikes and/or they require lifting.) If we want to be equitable, if we want it to be possible for as many people as possible to give up cars or leave the car at home, cycle infrastructure has to be accessible. I agree that if e-cycles are going to be banned from buildings or that there's not room for them inside small apartments, we need secure storage. But that storage has to be accessible as well.
This is an excellent point and I really appreciate your perspective.
this is oil companies lobby. They don't want people to change a car to a ebike.
Not even, it's sadder than that really. It's a bunch of local politicians flipping their lid over a few accidents and making emotionally driven and reactionary policy decisions, rather than logically trying to solve real safety problems. The problem in this case is performative politics, not lobbyists.
@@hemingwaybromfield3722It is the owners of the properties.
I don't own a building but if I did I certainly wouldn't want lots of random ebikes being stored in it. This is coming from an EUC enthusiast.
We are using needlessly dangerous tech because the show is being run by clowns. Even the primitive NiMH batteries are quite literally a million times safer when it comes to not burning down entire buildings. They don't have as much range but let's get our priorities right. My EUC is the size of a briefcase and has 260km nominal range. I think we can sacrifice a bit of range for drastically increased safety.
Maybe, but they’ve got a point, which needs fixing so they can’t use it against us
Yeah, and behind the oil lobbies are the fascists and they are guided by the Illuminati at whose head are aliens. It’s always the aliens if you follow the power.
Okay, seriously, did you just blame the oil companies because you thought it would help win support, or do you really believe it?
People who use electric wheelchairs have batteries that will have to charge indoors. Is there a standard for another device of that battery capacity that is comparable to the battery power of an e-bike that exists?
I think power wheelchairs are often still using Sealed Lead Acid (SLA) as ballast to make the machine more stable.
@@jamesphillips2285Yeah, back in 2000s that was the reality, but these batteries tend to release harmful vapors after some time, which may be fine in a car engine bay, but not on something you are going to be sitting on top for years.
The best battery type for wheelchairs is LiFePO4, especially the A123. Those often offer lower energy density and heavier than lithium polymer, batteries, but much safer and even viable for sensitive environment, like airline aircraft electrical systems. The reason is the fact those do not burst violently into fire after a puncture or short circuit.
When the lobbyists and those they represent start to take electric buses seriously as a threat to the private car industry, I wouldn’t be surprised if we suddenly start hearing a lot about battery and charging safety there too.
The band will never go through. I do not believe it and I only base this on if they’re going to ban electric bikes, and batteries. Well they’re gonna have to ban iPhones anything that needs to be charged laptop laptop because these things are safe. The batteries are safe as long as you Buy them in the correct way from a reputable supplier same thing that goes when an electric bike anything can go wrong, but with these electric bikes, you really really have to pay attention. You can’t go to sleep and charge. You can’t leave the house in charge. That’s a responsibility that you have to take on yourself. The same thing goes with a phone or a laptop if you leave it charging too long it’s going to either break or catch on fire. It’s just like bikes or a little bit bigger so we have to be responsible on how we charge and what we do and if we have kids to have electric bikes, we need to make sure that they are doing and charging the right way and I don’t think they’re gonna just ban the electric bikes. I could see if it’s in Illegal Electric bike that’s something different and somebody wants to take a risk on losing their bike that they put so much money into by not driving responsibly because that’s the only way you can get caught is by not following the speed limit not following the bikes going up one ways And going up one ways I need to work on that myself. It’s about safety everybody and it’s true if things get crazy with the electric bikes, they can ban them. Yes, they can. I just don’t see the same situations that we’re going on a year ago two years ago People are actually respecting the batteries and understanding their capabilities if they are treated wrong or made wrong we are making better decisions on how to buy batteries and electric bikes. It’s not worth it to pay $79 for a 48 V 20 amp power battery that you have no idea how it was made And has no label. It’s worth paying the full price for a product that you know is labeled and will not hurt you or anybody else you cannot promise that the battery is not going to be faulty but the chances are better when you know what you product you are buying.
The solution to the Ted Cruz problem is Colin Allred. And it's a much bigger problem than just batteries.
I wish that I could write that I can't believe they are still harping on about gas stoves, but I can 't write that because we seem to be living the idiocracy movie. Regulation for safety is something that republicans haven't understood for longalongatime.
Can't you start that lawsuit as you have a business in New York that sells (UL-certified) e-bikes, not too far fetched that such a ban affects your turnover.
I wish it was that simple. I have done that before as I mentioned related to the sale, but I'm not directly aggrieved as a tenant would be.
@@Propelbikes You are still a local business owner.
@garyseckel295 I wish it was that simple but I’m not sure if it is
I think most e-bike fire issues are due to aftermarket mods. A DIY battery. I'm going to make a battery for my e-bike. I'll trust it not too burn...
.... But the building owner has no reason to believe I made the battery safe.
A fire proof Secure bike park with outlets for charging is the only option I know.
Totally, 100% agree! Everyone, picture yourself AS the apartment building owner!
ALL the ebike fires were done from idiots using wrong charger as some figure the stronger the charger in amps, the quicker they get battery recharged. This is way overlooked and reason Apartments insurances are trying to ban ebikes believing any ebike will start a fire when it is not a 50 50 chance, more like .0001% ( and Im being nice to critics of rate )of ebikers who tinker with components, controller, wire cutting, ect.
I assume they are delivery guys trying to stay on the road by using off brand batteries and chargers. I understand their plight, but only to a point.
@@2505JAD The solution for delivery guys is battery swapping infrastructure. Near-zero downtime and slow charging is not an issue. The infrastructure can be made to contain battery fires.
I'm about 2 minutes in, so this may have been said already: Probably the simplest solution is to just create secure bike storage space for the bikes. If people have an mutually acceptable way to store their bikes, the ban doesn't need to happen.
Edit: Yeah. Literally seconds later. Also the battery safety is immensely important as well.
This is likely one of many solutions that should be implemented to make eBikes a more sustainable transportation solution.
Thieves just break in here and I've seen them take an hour with angle grinding and no obe stopped them!
That means I just sneak in my e-bike to my apartment and don't have to worry about leaving it out there!
I just sneak in my UL certified e-scooter and soon to be e-bike through these apartments! Just lucky my family's co-op has no doorman for the time being and has a side-door!
Can't take away my safe e-bike!
@larrycamilli9589 And you sound like those close-minded, paranoid, philistine, uninviting folks who can't distinguish the crucial details and track recorfs that separates UL certified batteries from the real hazard!
So far, there have been no documented UL-certified battery fires and the ones that do were because of illegal modifications, mixing different, incompatible chargers and mostly from being burned by a fire started by an exploding, neighboring non-certified battery!
Unless one blatantly punctures, submerges or forces an overcharge to a UL certified battery with a wrong aftermarket charger, the chances of it catching fire while charging normally is less than one in a million!
One's apartment is far more likely to be burned down by a burning kitchen stove than a UL certified battery explosion by a factor of at least a thousand!
@larrycamilli9589 To be UL certified requires rigurous, strict safety standards and testing including the procedure in which a battery pack is assembled and the sophistication of its BMS system!
This whole issue is a red herring.
None of these laws, codes or standards do anything directly to address e-bike battery safety. The only real factor in e-bike battery fire safety is the quality of the cells. Batteries with cells manufactured by one of the "big 4"--Sony, LG, Samsung or Panasonic--are safe. Batteries constructed with cells not from one of those manufacturers are unsafe. What they should be testing is the cells; testing the whole battery pack as shown in your b-roll isn't really testing anything of any true value.
I have charged various e-bikes in my garage for the past 7 years, and have never had an issue, as you haven't in your shop, because all of the brands I have purchased use batteries from manufacturers that utilize cells from the big 4. However, some of those batteries were tested under UL standards, some CE, some TUV (which is actually a stricter standard than UL), so technically, most of my bikes are now no longer legal, despite the fact that they are entirely safe, due to a new fire code here in San Francisco, which is similarly, or perhaps more, draconian than the new one in NY. For instance, if you own more than 4 e-bikes, you are required to space your chargers 3 feet apart and conduct all of your charging in a room surrounded by 2-hour firewalls, a monitored fire alarm system and sprinklers. None of these codes apply to charging an EV indoors, despite the fact that there have been many more EV fires than e-bike fires, and EV batteries are orders of magnitude larger. It's interesting that despite the fact there have been many more EV fires, you rarely see those stories in the news.
California also made two more of my e-bikes fully illegal this year, by passing a law that makes e-bikes that allow you to load different profiles in your computer to change it to/from a class 1, 2 or 3 bike, which is very convenient if you want to go on a family ride as a class 1, but do a solo errand ride as class 3. This will do nothing to improve public safety, as it does not address the actual issue, which is people who purchase and operate illegal electric mopeds like Sur-rons, Stealth B-52's and HPC's, because they are already ignorant of the law and will continue to be, or they know the law and don't care, and will continue to not care. And it doesn't really matter, because there is zero enforcement. SFPD doesn't even enforce traffic laws. All it does is unnecessarily punish and criminalize companies and customers who are already manufacturing and operating perfectly safe products.
So by all means, pursue this route (and I don't think you have a choice, because the government has defined the issue this way legally), and I honestly wish you the best of luck. Understand however, that the other side is not arguing in good faith. The point of these laws is not to improve public safety. The point is for politicians to score points with two audiences: the automotive industry and what I call automotive conservatives--people who love cars and hate bikes and other transit options and who, if they could, would ban all bicycles from the road. The latter are in full-blown Karen hysterics about e-bikes, so placating their fears is a decent way to potentially earn votes. The former makes far more profit than the e-bike industry, and so is a much larger potential donor to US political campaigns. The automotive industry's goal is to make e-bikes as unattractive and inconvenient as possible so that people will prefer EV's and AV's instead.
Note that there is no data showing that even illegal eletric mopeds and scooters are a threat to public safety. Annual fatalities caused by bicycles and mopeds combined are in the low double-digits; while cars are responsible for 40k+ deaths every year. Only about 2% of the US population regularly rides bicycles of any kind. Cars of all kinds, including EV's, produce orders of magnitude more emissions from manufacturing, operation and disposal than either traditional bicycles or e-bikes. And yet we are seeing a crack down on e-bikes. So ask yourself what the motivation is.
P.S., E-bikes are defined as bicycles federally, as you pointed out, and in nearly every state and local jurisdiction in the US, to such an extent that I think it would be challenging to even locate a jurisdiction where they are not. Bikes like Sur-rons, Stealth B-52's and HPC's are illegal electric mopeds, despite people erroneously labeling them "e-bikes".
You are badly mistaken!
Cells do not contain ANY safety features.
If you directly short a samsung cell, or puncture it, it is just as unsafe as any other cell.
The BMS is what matters in terms of prevention, and the case is the main factor in containment once there is a failure. The BMS is a safety system that sits between the battery cells and the rest of the system, it balances the cell, makes sure they don't get under/over a certain voltage level, that they don't discharge too fast, that they don't overheat, etc.
Once you do have an issue ( ex: puncture, direct short of the cells in an accident, whatever ), no amount of external electronics is going to save you, you need to contain the failure in some way with a properly designed casing.
Holy moly dude, free time on your hands?
@@boblatkey7160 who sent him is more like it 🤔 "the big 4"
@@boblatkey7160 no, I just think deeper and type faster than you.
I know several coworkers who buy electric bikes to deliver food, but they don't get the performance they are looking for and they put a bigger battery on them, which is not recommended and that is where the fires start. But the electric wheelchair uses the same lithium battery and there have been no problems.
This issue is beyond just the batteries. A lot of these cheaper import bikes are marketed towards people that really know nothing about bikes and they are trying to throw all these bells and whistles on, but really using cheap parts. They are also pushing way beyond the limit of what is even legally considered an e-bike. So not only are the problems like they were having in New York from batteries going to be an issue. The industry is turning the general public completely against them. We will be facing more issues, such as the one in Key Biscayne Florida. They banned all e-bikes completely. Honestly, a push needs to be given to the industry to quit selling under the name of the e-bike, products that do not fit the legal description of one. Otherwise, these problems will fall on everyone, including the responsible ones that are trying to buy, ride, and live responsibly with an e-bike. I have even heard big TH-cam reviewers. Tell me that a bike can be classified as a class 2and a class 3 at the same time. these people should be called out. Just my thoughts. BTW, you are completely correct that this will take a lawsuit to settle
Interesting. Ebay UK has just announced a ban on private ebike sales (i.e. qualified business seller only) stating battery and EAPC regulations as the cause.
Interesting. I could see how companies could potentially use eBay to skirt regulations. I wonder if that would eventually come to the US. NYC has already put laws in place making it difficult to sell used eBikes.
Most (if not all) of the untested e-bikes enter the Netherland by individuals who buy them of Alibaba or Temu. It is extreme hard to regulate those kinds of Chinese imports.
@@buddy1155 it is possible for Customs to manage this, but it is challenging to address counterfeit test labeling.
I think it kinda makes sense. It's one way of regulating the market. I mean, how do you hold a private person liabel?
@@PropelbikesThe authorized testing labs could make it easier to verify if the brand and model have been certified by 1) combining their individual databases into one and 2) make it fully and easily accessible to individuals.
As it is now, I have to search databases at SGS, TUV and UL, and each offers different available search criteria, and display differing amounts of information.
This seems completely irrational to me. Our homes are filled with lithium-ion batteries, all of which could cause a fire if they were improperly manufactured or lack charging safety features. If there is an issue with bad batteries, associated with e-bikes, the solution is to investigate the supply chain and root out the bad actors.
Exactly! It’s not as if they banned laptops, phones or tablets when some of their batteries had thermal runaway issues.
We now have power banks, power stations, cordless vacuums & power tools, earbuds, headphones, game controllers, etc. with batteries of the same chemistries.
I will say that as a fan of PEVs ebikes and such have a lot more battery than your average laptop does to be fair..
True, portable electronics have much smaller batteries than PEVs, but some yard equipment batteries can be as large or larger, and people who have them have multiple. Then again, they tend to be kept in stand-alone single family homes, so aren’t subject to the same restrictions.
The least we can do is what China has, which is crack down nationally on poor-quality PEV batteries. Ironic, given how many of them are made there. That’s the good thing about requiring UL certification. It helps root out bad actors. It does add to the cost of goods, but I think it’s needed, and making it mandatory will make the playing field fair to all companies.
@@chow-chihuang4903 I worry about this ever since I opened a replacement Macbook battery I'd bought from a reputable supplier, which died after the warranty expired. It was made of re-used beat-up under sized cells with the markings mostly washed off, misc spare wires, and a block of rubber to take space and add weight. The soldering could have been done better by a blind child using his feet. I wonder how many of us are sleeping within range of such time b*mbs.
responsibility for having a compliant ebike should be 100 pct on the customer allowing for them to be sued directly in the event of a fire.
Quick question...looking at potentially purchasing an ebike and wanted to better understand if I need to bring the battery inside to charge during the winter (cold/hot in a Colorado garage) or can I charge it year round in the garage? I have a Onewheel, but just keep it charged in our den inside the house...
Depends on the temperatures the inside of your garage reaches.
Your bike’s owners manual should provide both operating and charging temperature ranges.
I use a fan to cool the charger and battery while they’re charging, and I use a repeating timer on my watch to remind me to check on them periodically. Some people set their charger on a shut-off timer to prevent overcharging.
You should hook up with V from Powerful Lithium out of Jersey City, NJ, the foremost authority on ebike batteries in the entire country. He builds them & shows in great detail how unscrupulous battery repair shops hack the built-in lithium battery's safety device & then resell them as essentially time bombs waiting to explode. The ones who do that belong behind bars! My ebike turns two yrs old tomorrow, but it's nationally illegal AF. Almost double the legal watts registering at 1,300 max watts, & goes 40 mph... Ariel Rider brand Kepler model, the biggest bang for the buck bad-a$$ ebike (or was when I got it).
Yours isn't illegal because it has an unsafe battery, it's illegal because it is too powerful to be called a bicycle. It is _not_ an ebike. It is classed as a motor vehicle, and needs a license, registration, and insurance just like every other motor vehicle.
Here in UK the last clueless Govt held a consultation before they got kicked out to up the ebikes to 500 watts and allow throttles to 15.5mph. Most bike associations said no and that they were missing the point. What we needed was more protected cycling infrastructure not more powerful motors and in turn batteries where the unregulated ones without BMSs cause the fires.
Amazing job explaining the situation and props for wanting to step up and help out a new not full understood community! Thank you!
If you are crazy, you're my kind of crazy! Always fighting the good fight. I wish you success in your suit.
As a NYC apartment dweller & DIY e-bike(s) owner I hate the new UL requirements. I was paranoid about batteries so I researched heavily before buying. Now some of the best built batteries are unavailable to me:( I don't think most people will do that level of research or pay the premium for properly built batteries when they can get a battery for up to 50% less, so (reluctantly) I SUPPORT THE UL REQUIREMENTS.
Much appreciate Michael!
19th and 21st century will have public spaces used by the public, vs the 20th where autos dominated.
That’s a great perspective!
It’s the charger, not the battery, not the bike. Stay with me here. If you use a low power charger, you don’t cook the battery. You solve the problem.
I get this is not what folks like, but low and slow charging, with a published standard solves the problem. The rider charges over night. 5 to 7 hours. Who gives a crap, you’re sleeping. Fast charging is bad. It is hazardous because it is bad. I’ve always had a low voltage, low amp charger, low HEAT charger.
The real enemy is quick charging. The answer is maybe another battery or another charger, or both. 14 years on an ebike.
This is a common issue, but not the only issue by any means.
I have two euc's and some electric skate boards. I like to store them in the garage in metal garbage cans. It would be nice to be able to conveniently remove the batteries and store and charge in a fire proof place. Then store the Eboards and electric unicycles in the house with out the batteries. Unfortunately removing the batteries is not that easy. It's the batteries we should be concerned about not the vehicle.
Good points for sure!
I like your approach to this subject. Cheers!
Big oil hates ebikes, also they can't remotely shut off your ebike if you do something naughty (like the ev future they want)
Also think ADA. Denying access arbitrarily violates many precedents! Awesome for you! This same approach needs to be applied to land access. It is totally silly to ban access based on ebike non-ebike, there is no difference to the land and trail.
This is a fair point, but I don’t think it would be as widespread of a solution
We agree with you, and I feel that the building owner should have to create a bicycle parking area, with charging available. Saw some great ones in Holland too. Josh K.
Many buildings do have parking fortunately, but most of them don't have charging available. It would be great to see more of that.
I live in the Netherlands (Holland) and overhere biking is the way to go when traveling to and in our the cities. The problem with the e-bikes is the fire hazards (battery run down) which can occur, even when it’s a reputable brand fire is possible through unnoticeable damage / dropping or just because in production things got screwed. Battery (Lithium) fires are high in energy difficult to put out, and produce deathly gases like hydrogen fluoride (HF), that is why over here we are not allowed to charge electric bikes in the big (15k) bicycle parking garages we have over here. There are experiments where charging of the battery takes place out of the bike and the battery is placed in a enclosed space (semi bank vault) where if fire breaks out, extinguishing the fire is done by removing oxygen and toxic gases.
Overhere e-bikes are a somewhat controversial topic, a lot of accidents occur due to inadequate usage and antisocial / immature behavior of the users and by others (fellow road users) due to the lack of correlation between the noted physical efforts and the real world speed in witch the e bike moves through the traffic the big speed differences makes it hard to anticipate. Not an easy discussion, yes biking is the way to go, improves health, makes our cities livable etc. but does everyone need an e-bike not the best for improving your health if you are able to pedal normally, costs are high to the environment (producing batteries, chargers, motors, network and power to charge the batteries and after end of life your left over with so much stuff (like lithium) a normal bike wouldn’t bring to the table. On the other hand as all those people would otherwise have bought a car buying an e-bike is the better option for health and our planet.
Liking the idea of buildings having safe charging cages. Think of lockable personal post office mailboxes. The charging cages would be installed in a weather protected fire safe location, with each box having a plug. This only works of course with bikes that have a removable battery.
This would be really nice. There are some companies introducing these solutions right now. We just need adoption
It's the insurers that need to feel safe with these products, more so than the building owners. Chasing after building owners first is coming at the situation from the wrong angle, IMHO.
Manufacturers need to team up and work with each other, as well as legislators, and major insurers, to create a universal certified standard AND registration system, that shows that their e-mobility product(s) meet a given level of safety. And that registration and certification needs to be tied to that bicycle and its charging system…beyond a mere UL certification.
Until then, if an insurer says they won’t cover damages involving a e-bike/etc., then the building owner have no choice but to start banning them.
2 things, my battery went off while charging in August. There was no tampering, no overcharging. The battery was 3 years old. As far as i know, the BMS crapped out. I own a Shanshan bumble bee rack battery.
2nd, I tried to apply to the city battery swap program, and because i wasn't specifically a food delivery driver, I was rejected.
Well i don't live in New York,i been hearing that this has become a real problem for many riders. While owning a car, paying insurance and increased gas costs keep going higher, riding Ebikes are much cheaper. It would be nice if buildings set aside Ebike parking lots along with charging outlets for a small monthly fee to the tenants that need to use it. I ride my Ebike 16 miles everyday and its good excerise for your health and your pocket at the sametime. Also UL listed Ebikes are better to minimize risk of fires 🔥 as well.
Another idea is to have a portable POD outside the building for storage too with built in electric outlets as those can be rented by anyone with a monthly fee. Great video by the way. Thank you.
The chemistry is the problem so until the technology improves to a perfectly fail-safe level, liability insurance should be part of the solution. A million dollar personal liability umbrella policy is like $120/year. I used to charge an ebike in a multi-tenant building, and confirmed my policy would cover any damage caused by that.
That's interesting perspective and feedback. Thanks for sharing!
@@Propelbikes Thank you for doing this. The risks are crazy right now but blanket banning all e-bikes is clearly wrong. Some buildings are just electrically unsound. Some people do build wildly unsafe battery packs and e-bikes. Certifications underwritten by insurers are how society deals with most risks. Bikers should generally have some kind of liability coverage for more likely risks anyway - like hitting someone, being falsely accused of it, or being sued by someone who bought, borrowed or even stole your bike and crashed it. Maybe allowing building owners to require appropriate insurance for any energy dense power source is a good compromise.
There is no other motorized device with higher efficiency than an e-bike. Snow, cars , theft and other dangers to riders aside for 85% of my travel I can use an e bike. No infrastructure in this country to allow a nation wide switch of that sort but they work to complete the task. Luckily here I can get to work and grocery shop a full cart of groceries back home by e-bike with the use of a carrier. Doctor, dentist, hair cut, meals out all turn into an easy cruise no gasoline. Besides how freaking fun they are they can also fill the need for much of the travel America needs done.
If you start the discussion by asking why buildings want to ban e-bikes, you can work toward a solution. The why is easy: e-bike charging systems have been known to cause fires. That makes it easy for an anti-bike culture to call for their ban. The overall problem with e-bikes is two-fold: shoddy products and illegal modification. People want to create electric motorcycles -- machines that are able to go a lot faster without the need to pedal than the law allows -- and badge them as Class 3 e-bikes. If a machine can carry its pilot at 30-40 mph without pedal input, it's clearly not a bicycle, nor is it a mobility device. It's a motorcycle, and it must be treated as such. A vehicle with that much power is unlikely to pass the UL e-bike battery charging standard.
But we don't ban other products that cause fires more often than ebikes. Why single out ebikes?
@@TommyJonesProductions The answer is in my post. It's because we live in an anti-bike culture in the US. Cars rule; bikes are in their way. Of course that view is ridiculous, but it's prevalent.
In my opinion having batteries that are not tested is a non-starter. Everything else is just about convenience
Agreed, but unfortunately there are many un-tested batteries out there.
@@Propelbikes government funded buy backs? I remember hearing about something like that before. Zero interest loans? Huge price,breaks, etc..
Viewing this from Toronto with interest. While we haven't had the same scale of problems with fires, if banning e-bikes from buildings became normalized in NYC I would expect a movement to follow suit here. I hope you're able to keep NYC moving forward, I think cities across Turtle Island will feel the ripples from that momentum.
Have you got a link to a video of the UL actually testing Bosch batteries (powerpack 500) or equivalent?
The solution is simple. Buildings shouldn't ban the bike but should ban batteries over certain capacities.
Someone finally gets it
Mylocal state trails have banned my e bike. They only allow class 1 ebikes.
It should be noted that the federal definition is a commerce definition, covering interstate trade/commerce and not a “road legal” definition that is upto individual jurisdictions to define and enforce.
Fair point and certainly to be considered.
I believe you have a case and I love this. You will find someone with standing soon!
Much appreciated!
I live in the Netherlands (Holland) and overhere biking is the way to go when traveling to and in our the cities. The problem with the e-bikes is the fire hazards (battery run down) which can occur, even when it’s a reputable brand fire is possible through unnoticeable damage / dropping or just because in production things got screwed. Battery (Lithium) fires are high in energy difficult to put out, and produce deathly gases like hydrogen fluoride (HF), that is why over here we are not allowed to charge electric bikes in the big (15k) bicycle parking garages we have over here. There are experiments where charging of the battery takes place out of the bike and the battery is placed in a enclosed space (semi bank vault) where if fire breaks out, extinguishing the fire is done by removing oxygen and toxic gases.
Overhere e-bikes are a somewhat controversial topic, a lot of accidents occur due to inadequate usage and antisocial / immature behavior of the users and by others (fellow road users) due to the lack of correlation between the noted physical efforts and the real world speed in witch the e bike moves through the traffic the big speed differences makes it hard to anticipate. Not an easy discussion, yes biking is the way to go, improves health, makes our cities livable etc. but does everyone need an e-bike not the best for improving your health if you are able to pedal normally, costs are high to the environment (producing batteries, chargers, motors, network and power to charge the batteries and after end of life your left over with so much stuff (like lithium) a normal bike wouldn’t bring to the table. On the other hand as all those people would otherwise have bought a car buying an e-bike is the better option for health and our planet.
What do you think about a compromise that says a building is unable to ban ebikes, but they are able to mandate a fire enclosure for the batteries of the bike that they would have to provide or at least help with acquiring so in the event a faulty battery does catch fire in an old building that doesn't meet modern fire specifications, it will be contained to the box and not spread to the rest of the building.
Also, for full disclosure, I don't have any skin in the game here. I don't live in an apartment building or in new york, I don't own an ebike and have no plans to acquire one in the next few years (they cost too much money and I make do well enough with my human powered bike)
This is a prime example of laws/regulation not keeping pace with technology. If the bikes meet safety standards there should be no reason to ban them. Many buildings have parking garages for cars, vehicles with a large tank of flamable liquid. We feel safe with cars because we know they are built to a certain safety standard. Bikes should be no different.
Why are they not cracking down on phones, roombas and other lipo devices often found in homes?
I think it's the size of the battery and the potential hazard. There also seems to be more low quality un-tested batteries in the eBike space though too.
I love my Aventon Pace 500.3. all Aventon batteries are UL tested. Iove that you made this video ❤
had an Aventure here, and have ran that bike's battery on a custom-build, that batt was happy as can be regardless of what it powered as it's properly made and all. i made sure my end [the custom build ebike] was wired properly and had no issues as well..
We can’t have nice things because of a few irresponsible
Most likely do not realize their unit is or was going to become illegal.
I DO realize, but long-term e-assist rider here!
I called a well known bike company. I asked the lady if they gonna start selling there e bikes in New York City again she said it because of the batteries, I asked her ain’t your company batteries UL certified she said yes, then she said but I think it’s the motor too….i was sad after that 🤷🏽♀️
Sounds like they need more education at that company.
@@Propelbikes yes thank you
I'm a strong advocate for safe battery charging methods directly in the bike shed. I would even go as far as makiy it possible to ban charging ebike batteries in the apartments, IF there's safe and affordable method of storing and charging them inside the building in concentrated manner. This is the way I think we should be heading.
I was also about to pitch you the idea of banning untested batteries being sold and imported altogether, but it seems that's already in the process.
That would really be the best case scenario for everyone here.
Appartments need lockers outside in safe no fire area for charging batteries without the bike, the bike can be taken in the apartment without the battery. The lockers could have AC outlets to charge the battery in the outside lockers for the removed e-bike battery.
Very articulate and well presented discussion. Best of luck in advancing the agenda.
This needs to be addressed not just in buildings, but on trains as well.
That would be nice, but I don't know if there is as simple of a path for this in the near-term.
Everything is dangerous to some degree so yes what's needed is sensible precautions to limit the risk to acceptable levels.
Here in UK I'm lucky enough to have a garage that I store and charge my ebikes in and personally I would be very wary of charging indoors.
Having said that we all have phones and laptops and I fly RC planes all have lithium batteries, but they are all quality and protected circuits etc.
Note I just got rid of a gas cooker after finding a gas leak in the pipe under the floor in kitchen, capped it off at entry apart from boiler and using electric , having tested my house wiring I found some dodgy connections which could have caused a fire and sorted those.
I was a landlord for a while and Tennant left the house with burn holes in the carpet and smoke damage on ceiling etc, kitchen had obviously been flooded recently too, so I understand the concerns of a landlord.
Leaving a expensive ebikes in a dedicated building would require decent security if that was the suggested answer.
Nothing here has an easy fix/answer but banning is only going to serve to keep the car industry going which is a worse thing imho.
For starters if you opt to charge your EV battery indoors it should always be in a safer area where the charger can properly cool down and ALWAYS be ON A TIMER to limit the charging times and to ensure that the power is completely disconnected when complete
Chris, I totally agree with you. However, here's the rub. I've been involved in too much litigation to mention (mostly professionally). When you go down the road of litigation, you have to look at it from the standpoint of the third party (i.e. judge or jury). The building owner stands there and tells the judge his insurance carrier will cancel his insurance unless he prohibits e-bikes. What's a judge going to do? The judge will see the building owner as between a rock and a hard place. It has nothing to do with what's right or fair. You will have to have an answer for that situation. Something strong enough to compel a judge to make the right decision.
Thank you for this presentation.
Users of micro-mobility devices are people who have adapted to the space constraints that exist in any very-large city. Use of micro-mobility devices should be encouraged.
I understand people's concerns about battery fires.
There might be a profitable market for various sizes of fire-proof pre-cast concrete micro-mobility-device storage vaults that could be purchased, delivered by flat-bed truck, and placed in a suitable above-ground location within the property boundaries of private residences, apartment buildings, and self-storage facilities, but outside of and a safe distance away from those buildings.
I worry that a judge might not side with you on this question. There is precedent for a building owner to prevent residents from bringing certain things (like pets, grow lights) into a building. And, while you may be correct that most of an e-bike is a bike, the battery, itself, could be seen as a separate thing. For this reason, I favor a legislative approach that addresses the matter in a more nuanced way than a judge could. If I were a judge adjudicating a case involving a single plaintiff, I'd decide the case on the narrowest grounds possible. So you could end up with a decision that a building owner cannot ban the particular brand and model of e-bike involved in the suit. To avoid a ruling on those narrow grounds, you might need to bring a class action suit, which would require many similarly-situated plaintiffs. Assembling that class comes with its own hurdles. But, even then, a judicial ruling is ordinarily a relatively blunt instrument where a scalpel is really needed. For example, it might make sense to allow a building owner to require that batteries over a certain size (and made of a certain material) be stored and charged in a special part of the building. Or maybe a building owner should be able to require a certificate from the local fire department that a particular battery is appropriately tested and safe for storage in the building. These are not regulatory structures that a judge could impose through an opinion and, yet, they are the sort of things that would balance competing reasonable concerns.
Really great points! We will definitely consider these as we pursue this further.
Certainly will create an architecturally-transformative Moment in Urban Design!! Wow...absolutely this is worth the "fight", as...its the Future!!
Thanks! We really hope we can influence some positive change here.
You’re being way too charitable to these obviously disingenuous bad actors who are clearly aware that the city could ban bikes that don’t meet the fire safety regulations only.
Thanks Chris! I appreciate your support as always!
My workplace currently has policies on storing e-bikes or charging them at work. They are completely happy to house electric cars and charge them in the same locations.
Never had a LI battery blow up or catch fire. Only get very hot. That includes my E Trike which I immediately unplugged. People need to be careful and vigilant when changing these type of batterys.
@Propel - Why not have a fireproof locker where people can store and charge their battery? The bike without the battery can be brought into the apartment.
I own Bosch made e-bikes. Bosch designs the entire electrical system, which includes the battery and charger, the controller and the motor. Bosch is UL approved.
I suspect that the e-bikes are constructed with random off the shelf components may be the problem.
You have valid points I have a bioxix battery. Charge one hour then off for two battery stays cool
Definitely be careful if you're battery is getting hot. I would be concerned if my battery or charger was getting hot while charging.
My batteries never get more than slightly warm to the touch, though the chargers without internal cooling fans do get very warm to the touch (48V, so output 54.6V @ 2A).
I set the charger on a small cooling rack and use a fan to blow air over both the charger and battery as they charge. That keeps the charger much cooler.
The 48V 3A charger I got with one ebike has a cooling fan so it never gets more than slightly warm. I use an external fan over both battery and charger anyway for extra peace of mind.
I would support laws that restrict storage to fire resistant areas or facilities. Like open areas and parking garages. I would also support limited security deposits for apartments and public housing for storage of all electric vehicles.
I am legally disabled and allowed by the ADA act to use my OPD-MD on any public land open to the public, or any private land open to t the public. My OPD-MD happens to be a 2 wheel ebike with a 750 watt motor, it is not as wide as some wheel chairs and 3 wheel mobility devices found in Walmart available to the public for free, . It is against t he ADA law for any public official to ask me what is my exact disability, providing I show proof of my disability decision by any state, federal government, such as disability award letter from social security .
I am a senior citizen with 50 years of motorcycle experience with endorsement on my license, I also carry a Combined liability policy of $500k on both of my OPD-MD s. In Florida there are local city ordinances banning ebikes in congested pedestrian areas, which in my case is against the law. I want to join a coalition of disabled ebike riders to change these elegal laws with no exceptions for the disability act.
I live in Vancouver Canada, grew up here. My whole life we never had Forrest fires and smoke in the city...now it's every year the last 8 years. Global warming is real. If e bikes stop carbon emissions and slow Global warming then it's a must!!!!
Make sure to add this to the lawsuit:
It is a scientific fact, that batteries are not supposed to be kept in frigid temperatures, as the cold changes battery chemistry and causes irreperable damage to the cells. By banning e-bikes, the people doing the banning are inherently increasing the rate of battery failure, by forcing people to ignore battery safety guidelines.
When it starts to approach freezing as winter comes, one really should be taking the bike indoors, or if possible to remove it, the battery at the very least.
Try to get it said by a judge, that if anyone actively attempts to stop you from storing your e-bike correctly and as designed, they have to pay for any damage incurred. Remind them that e-bike batteries are not cheap, by any means, with the cheapest ones costing $400-600. Seek judgements which say the people who cause the damage can be held liable, as if they grabbed a key and scraped a car. Their actions cause damage, they pay.
Also the fear mongering of e-bike fires is insane. Battery testing is not fool-proof. Regulators gave Samsung the go-ahead for their phones, and look what happened with their Note series. Batteries ignite sometimes, that's just a matter of fact. Thus if you want to ban e-bikes, you have to also ban electric vehicles (many of which are being imported from China, and likely don't meet US safety standards), you'd have to ban laptops, smartphones... literally ANYTHING with a battery.
Size of batteries doesn't matter. The battery in a TV remote or smartphone can can cause just as much damage as a car or e-bike battery. It ignites and doesn't get put out promptly, the building is gone. It's as simple as that.
This is another shot being fired in the war against the poor. If you are carless, an electric bicycle can dramatically enhance your mobility and improve your health, if used properly. Yes, they are expensive too but far less than purchasing, insuring, maintaining, and fueling a car. Yes, it is important that the E-bikes are good quality and being operated safely. Although most E-bikes have removable batteries, the lack of bicycle storage and danger of theft really forces owners to take these expensive bikes to their apartments.
19:14 how can a motorized bike improve your health? if anything it worsens it....u dont get the upside health benefits of a bicycle but u get all the downside...fulltime exposure to polluted air.
@@ronrollo5023 I too shake my head when I see lazy e-bike riders just using throttle and not pedaling. But many do use the "pedalec" style of e-bike riding which requires pedaling. Other aspects of bike riding are often overlooked like improving your balance, awareness of surroundings, fresh air, getting on and off the bikes, lifting them. Even an e-bike can force you to be much more physically active than you would be driving a car. I happen to have a mechanical bike, but my 65 year old knees are beginning to bother me. So I see an e-bike in the future extending my bike riding life for many more years.
@@ronrollo5023 what happens if/when the cars/trucks are used far less, once ebikes have taken over near 90+% the short-tripping that is done in cars currently? and yes, they are, by far, more efficient and less maintenance-intensive than a car in that short-tripping role. even EV cars aren't quite as good in the short-tripping role, though they are better than any fuel-burning car..
Also I'm a cycling club member and a responsible, seasoned, safe cyclist. I was banned from a bike tour in NJ because my e-bike is class 2 to 3. I can actually ride it without the battery, it's rather hard since it's 47 ish lbs without the battery, but they said No way! 😞 Not the same issue but a real one.
I’m all for e-bikes but we have to admit that it is unreasonable to expect bicycles to be identified as UL listed vs not. Not to say cops can’t learn a thing or two but enforcement will be an issue.
Like all other laws, they’re designed to be an umbrella over everything. Few incidence of fires or mishandling of batteries ruins it for the majority. That’s the world we live in.
I FULLY reject the idea of "it has to do with the quality of the product, not an inherent problem with the technology".
That line of thinking almost always comes with banning ways that working class people find cheap ways to travel.
They said the same thing about inspections in NY. Cheap cars are too dangerous.. And then they made CA compliant cats a requirement to pass inspection. A $25 inspection and a $50 fix turned into the reason I had to take my car off the road. A 6k fix to replace both of my cats on an otherwise perfectly running vehicle.
Im fully against any safety measure on working class transportation UNLESS it is funded by the state... and the state increases taxes on luxury vehicles and million plus dollar properties to pay for it.
Otherwise, theyre just going to keep legislating the working man into debt forever.
Pointing the tested battery problem.
As a Latino, I can say that Latino ebike users always choose the cheapest way possible, chinese chargers, chinese batteries. It doesn't matter if it explodes, if it's cheap, good for them. I wish they could see this video so we don't have problems in the future with the bans.
Make the batteries removable, only allow charging and storing them in a fire safe box. No amount of testing or engineering will make a lithium battery 100% safe, just the drawback of storing a bunch of potential energy in such a tiny package. A laptop has what, maybe 100Wh? Ebikes probably pack 3-10 times as much or even more. That's the difference between burning down your kitchen table and burning down the entire block.
Toasters are not inherently unsafe, nor are space heaters or other household appliances. Nothing you find in a home is even remotely comparable.
Can you do a review of the beachman 64 ebike?
Second comment:
In case it needs to be said, municipalities and states ARE NOT free to do or legislate something different than what the US federal government has already legislated or defined.
The reason is because of something called "preemption" in law. In other words, if federal law speaks on a subject of law, as here E-bikes or E-scooters (e.g., Surrons without pedals), even if state law or municipal ordinance already exists, federal law pre-empts or "trumps" state law. This is in the federal Constitution under Article VI, known as the "Supremacy Clause."
That said, here in Michigan, because federal statute and federal definitions have already defined E-bikes as "low-speed electric bicycles" which have _functioning pedals,_ Michigan exempted E-bikes from the Michigan Vehicle Code, as is proper. Therefore, there is no debate with regards to the question, "Are E-bikes bicycles?" Because that question, as a matter of law, is settled. E-bikes are bicycles, and are to be treated as bicycles. This means E-bikes cannot be restricted from trails or other pathways bicycles can be used on. They are also, very importantly, not a "motor vehicle" as defined by law. Michigan law, per the definition of "motor vehicle," specifically EXEMPTS E-bikes from the definition of "motor vehicle."
Which means that any public signage for a trail or pathway with a "motor vehicle" prohibition DOES NOT apply to E-bikes. I say this because I have come across ignorant and errant people who erroneously think, out of ignorance, that E-bikes, because they have a motor, somehow are a "motor vehicle" and therefore are prohibited. E-bikes are not prohibited because they are not "motor vehicles."
Edit: Given the federal government already governs the importation of AAA, AA, C, D, 9V, 6V small engine, 12V car/truck/motorcycle, and large industrial batteries (Komatsu makes industrial equipment like electric forklift trucks), I would argue that E-bike batteries are already covered under federal law, since the component E-bike battery cells, made up of AA or larger batteries, already covers those. The same goes for 18/20V electric tool batteries, like electric drill, electric impact gun, and electric ratchet batteries as well.
I think you’re going about this the right way because you’re taking babies at like when you’re charging the battery you can do the quick charge right which means it doesn’t give a good fully charge but you can do the trickle charge which means you’re kinda charging it in layers, which means it’s a stronger type of charge that’s where the old batteries used to bethe slow way they’re trying figure out really what’s at the bottom level of why this is happening and then moving a couple inches up and figuring out where it is there so it’s easier to track and it’s easier to argue in a courtroom. Very good idea.