I never thought of this method using the extension cords. Brilliant! Since I work in mostly new construction, I don't feel that spending around $450 for the ideal suretest is the most efficient use of my hard earned 💰💰 especially given the sticky inflation over the last 4 years (just my auto insurance went up significantly more than an Ideal suretest cost in that timeframe, but that's a topic for a different discussion another day) So here's the method I use when I need to determine the first receptacle on a circuit in existing installations. First I use the same method as you did in step 1 without the Suretest, that is, turning off the breaker and noting which receptacles are dead. Step 2, plug in my Master Appliance HG-501D heat gun, 1740 watts, 14.5 amps and measure the neutral - ground voltage in the other half of the receptacle, note the readings. The receptacle with the lowest reading is the first in the daisy chain, the highest reading is the end of run. Any receptacles which measure 0V neutral - ground under this heavy load indicates a pirated ground eg. neutral - ground bonded at the receptacle, no ground wire available in the circuit.
I always look forward to your comments on my videos. I always learn from them. It sounds like you’re essentially doing the same thing I’m doing by measuring voltage drops. But instead of measuring voltage drops just on the neutral wire, you are measuring the drop between the neutral and the ground, which is going to increase as you get further from the panel. And you’re creating the voltage drop by running a high power load to create that voltage drop. I may have to make a new video to add yours to the list of options available.
It did not look like you were drawing a heavy load when you used the Ideal tester. With no load, the voltage drop should be extremely close to zero on a circuit of any reasonable length. Can you explain why the almost 7% voltage drop at the end of a circuit with no load? Or am I missing something? Thanks!
Hi. Great question. The circuit analyzer applies a 15 amp load by using a resistor connected between the hot and the neutral and uses that to calculate the voltage drop. So it actually was under a 15 amp load.
Hey Mike, while I was driving home from the grocery store, I though of a safer way to connect. Instead of getting alligator clips, get two banana plugs and two POLARIZED ac plugs or junk box extension cords, and connect the bananas to the neutral (LARGE SPADE) side of the polarized ac plugs. Plug the bananas into your meter. Now even if the bananas come out of the meter, they are on the neutral, which should be safe, assuming the house is wired properly. Probably best to check with the outlet tester you already have because you were using it to alligator to. I can see an alligator coming loose and making contact with the hot side, and unless it is the 4th, the fireworks would not be appreciated.
@@morganinspectionservices3840And if I may, the echo or large empty room sound quality makes it hard to listen to your voice. No offense, but if you remake for stable video, maybe also work on the audio also. I'm pretty ignorant about making videos so I can't offer any useful suggestions. Thank you for the interesting video. I will be watching it more than once. John
Why use the extension cord with DMM? Why not just measure the load voltage at each receptacle and record the results. The one with the highest voltage should be the upstream receptacle.
This is probably the best method. No extension cord or alligator needed. And if all outlets have the same voltage, then the outlet with the load is the upstream receptacle. It requires a more accurate meter (DMM), whereas the method shown in the video should work even with less accurate analog meter.
Hi. That’s a great question. I apologize for the confusion. I had already recorded the disconnected part when I realized I needed to explain about checking the receptacles in the bedroom. When I recorded showing the receptacles in the bedroom, that receptacle in the other room was not still disconnected.
Ok, they make probe tips which are shaped like the blades of a plugin, which are pretty easy to use. I bought an assorted set of probes off Amazon, which included probes for receptacles. Additionally, I bought jacks, and made a plugin which goes in the receptacle, and has jacks for standard 1/8-inch probe tips.
If the power was interrupted when you unhooked the first outlet in the chain why was the light on the kobalt circuit tester still illuminated , because the neutral circuit was still hooked up right.
No. Sorry about the confusion there. As I was putting the video together, I decided to go in and record the four receptacles as I said “you need to check that these four outlets are dead.” At that moment, the receptacle in the living room was not still disassembled. It was a video editing error.
Couldn't it be possible for the feed to go to BR1 and then 2 branches come off of that, one to LR and one to BR2? Not sure why they would do that in a new construction but if they did, your test would not identify it unless you also tested between BR1 and LR.
I suppose that could be possible, but when I turn off the breaker and check for all dead receptacles, they were only in these two rooms, so I had identified all of the receptacles that I was dealing with before I started my test. The key is to identify all of those receptacles first, and I think that the way I was doing this test would work regardless of it branching off to other rooms or not. It might have become necessary to plug the extension cord/test apparatus into another set of receptacles, but I think with some logic that this method should work.
Hey can you do a video on capacitive coupling and how it plays a role in high voltage grounded and ungrounded systems? Nobody seems to have any …..practical conceptual videos for self learners interested in it.
I will put that on my list. I know a little bit about it, but not a lot. I will do some research and see what I can come up with. Thank you for the suggestion/request.
@ thank you you are the man! A god among men! Love how you teach fun stuff for self learners. I find the idea of high voltage and capacitive coupling fascinating. Basically I’d like to know: 1) How and why does it occur in ungrounded systems under high voltage but not grounded? Completely confuses me. 2) Could a human be capacitively coupled if hovering In the air under the HV in a grounded or ungrounded. I read a fluroudent light will glow under HV even if not touching the ground. Unless I misread! 3) How could capacitive coupling affect a homes hot and neutral lines ? Thanks so much!!!
That's pretty sick. I did a voltage drop test on a 16 gauge extension cord with 800watt on it. It was a 7 volt differential on the cord itself. Same if hot to hot or neutral to neutral. When i tested hot to neutral at wall it was 124 volt and 122 volt at the end of extension cord. What i don't understand is it's a 7 volt drop from hot to hot or n to n. But only a 2 volt difference from wall hot to n vs hot to n at the end of the cord
I think I understand what you’re saying, and I think I understand what’s going on. Let me try to explain. Let me know if this makes sense. When you measured 124V “hot to neutral” at the wall and 122V at the end of the extension cord, that 2V drop is the net voltage drop across the entire circuit-including both the hot and neutral wires. The key here is that electricity flows in a complete circuit: current travels out through the hot wire to the load and back through the neutral wire. Both wires have resistance, and each contributes to the total voltage drop. For example, If the hot wire drops 1V due to resistance, and the neutral wire drops another 1V, the total voltage drop from “hot to neutral” is 2V. This is what you measured at the end of the cord. On the other hand, when you measure “hot to hot” or “neutral to neutral” along the cord, you’re isolating the voltage drop on just one conductor. That’s why you saw a larger 7V drop when measuring “hot to hot” or “neutral to neutral”-you’re focusing on the voltage drop across a single wire, not the combined effect of both. So, the 2V drop “hot to neutral” is the result of the load current interacting with the resistance of both the hot and neutral wires, effectively splitting the total voltage drop between them.
@morganinspectionservices3840 I could have worded it better, yes that's what I was saying. I figured 7 volts is about 5% loss. Just wanted to see what it was. I thought your video was cool, thanks for the tips
I am a pretty good trouble shooter , but I could not follow you. I did run into this where about eight outlets some room lights and porch lights were out. It took me a long time to find the first feed box where the wires were quick pushed into the back of the receptacle had an open connection in it stopping the current to the rest of the outlets.
I am in the process of making a new and improved video that shows these methods, but it will also include diagrams and will be done better. Look for it within the next 24 hours or so. I appreciate your feedback.
Why does the wiring inside the wall cause a voltage drop, BUT the (50-foot ?) extension cord used in this test does NOT cause a voltage drop ??? Something doesn't make sense here.
That’s a very good question. The answer is that the extension cord does not cause a voltage drop because no current is flowing through the extension cord during the test. There must be current to cause a voltage drop. The voltage drop occurs on the neutral wire of the circuit because that’s where the load’s current is running.
Lovely fun until the clip pops off and shorts to the hot pin. I used a couple of old salvaged 3 prong cords and put insulated banana plugs on to plug into the meter. The hot and ground wires are taped off. 100% safe. Be prepared to see 120 volts, because some outlets are wired wrong! If you use the tester first you'll find this though.
Buying a plug end would be cheaper. Then solder on a banana plug to wire to go in the meter.Or plug is on another circuit. I wired my rooms to every other outlet So I always had power if I needed to turn off a breaker.
That’s a great idea to wire your room with every other outlet on a different circuit. I have another video coming out, showing other methods to find the first receptacle in the chain. One of my methods uses the plug that I cut off the end of an extension cord. I appreciate you watching and commenting.
Ok, total noob here. I could follow what you were doing pretty well. Very interesting! (Informative comment section also!) So, as a home owner, when and why would I need/want to know this information? If I buy a newly constructed house, or have one built, should I ask for a copy of the wiring schematics for the whole house? Would that information be on file locally where building permits and inspection reports are generated, or is this info known only to God, the original electrical contractor and the inspector? This would be a home physics experiment for me. That Ideal Suretest device is pretty spendy at ~$420-500.00. I found a Klein test device that seems to provide similar info for ~1/3 the cost of the Ideal unit but have to research it a bit more. I do have a good multimeter and extension cords and my wife has at least one hair dryer, so could go that route for sure. Thank you, sir! Subscribed. John
Hi John. I appreciate your comment and feedback. Typically the builder would have a wiring diagram. Most often doing something like this would come in handy on an older house that is not GFCI protected or that has ungrounded receptacles. A lot of people in the situations like to add a GFCI protected receptacle on the first outlet on the circuit so that it will protect all other outlets downstream. That is the main reason for doing something like this. Yes, the Suretest is rather pricey, and there are some other devices that do basically the same thing.
You are not the first to point out that I pulled by the cord. That is not my normal way of doing it, but trying to work the camera and test equipment simultaneously…. I am already working on a new and improved version. Thanks for the feedback.
There is no aluminum wiring. It is all copper. Yes, I did pull on the cord to unplug the tester. That was the result of me holding the camera in one hand and doing the work with the other hand. I’m surprised you’re the first one who’s commented on that. That is not something I normally do.
@@morganinspectionservices3840 I guess the small screen and color is a tad off, so I went to the desktop and big screen, and yes, now it looks like copper. But, speed wiring is still very dangerous, I can't tell you how many outlets I have replaced that were melted due to being speed wired(just plugged into the holes) I would love to see the difference in percent of drop if you wrap the wires under the screw.
@@morganinspectionservices3840I was going to comment on that, especially with it being so tight. At least you weren’t unplugging the running hairdryer 😉
Are you talking in the outlet that I removed the wires from? If so, when you saw it on video, that was the very first time I ever opened that outlet. I did not install that outlet. hopefully, a licensed electrician installed it since this is a brand new house.
Love the video. This is a brilliant way to do this. I’ve never seen it before.
Thanks for the feedback.
I never thought of this method using the extension cords. Brilliant!
Since I work in mostly new construction, I don't feel that spending around $450 for the ideal suretest is the most efficient use of my hard earned 💰💰 especially given the sticky inflation over the last 4 years (just my auto insurance went up significantly more than an Ideal suretest cost in that timeframe, but that's a topic for a different discussion another day)
So here's the method I use when I need to determine the first receptacle on a circuit in existing installations. First I use the same method as you did in step 1 without the Suretest, that is, turning off the breaker and noting which receptacles are dead. Step 2, plug in my Master Appliance HG-501D heat gun, 1740 watts, 14.5 amps and measure the neutral - ground voltage in the other half of the receptacle, note the readings. The receptacle with the lowest reading is the first in the daisy chain, the highest reading is the end of run.
Any receptacles which measure 0V neutral - ground under this heavy load indicates a pirated ground eg. neutral - ground bonded at the receptacle, no ground wire available in the circuit.
I always look forward to your comments on my videos. I always learn from them.
It sounds like you’re essentially doing the same thing I’m doing by measuring voltage drops. But instead of measuring voltage drops just on the neutral wire, you are measuring the drop between the neutral and the ground, which is going to increase as you get further from the panel. And you’re creating the voltage drop by running a high power load to create that voltage drop.
I may have to make a new video to add yours to the list of options available.
Thank you Sparky 5. I like your way of doing this just as much as this video!
Thanks! Been using voltage drop on my car… Hadn’t thought about it in the house :-)
Voltage drop is a great way to follow circuits.
Nice Work, Morgan! I use the Suretest method, as an Electrician. Thanks,Russ, 29 years in the Electrical Trade.
The Suretest sure makes the process simple. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Brilliant!
@@c_b5060 Thanks
Very interesting. I had never considered this approach. I think I will make up a set of plugs with banana connections to make this easier.
That’s a great idea. It would make testing a lot faster.
Great video.
Thanks for watching!
Very clever!
Thanks
It did not look like you were drawing a heavy load when you used the Ideal tester. With no load, the voltage drop should be extremely close to zero on a circuit of any reasonable length. Can you explain why the almost 7% voltage drop at the end of a circuit with no load? Or am I missing something? Thanks!
Hi. Great question. The circuit analyzer applies a 15 amp load by using a resistor connected between the hot and the neutral and uses that to calculate the voltage drop. So it actually was under a 15 amp load.
Great video
Thank you for watching!
Great info! Thanks
Thanks for watching.
great idea, but the video gave me vertigo. to much waving the camera around moving from spot to spot.
Same here, I got dizzy watching it, but the information was great.
Hey Mike, while I was driving home from the grocery store, I though of a safer way to connect. Instead of getting alligator clips, get two banana plugs and two POLARIZED ac plugs or junk box extension cords, and connect the bananas to the neutral (LARGE SPADE) side of the polarized ac plugs. Plug the bananas into your meter. Now even if the bananas come out of the meter, they are on the neutral, which should be safe, assuming the house is wired properly. Probably best to check with the outlet tester you already have because you were using it to alligator to. I can see an alligator coming loose and making contact with the hot side, and unless it is the 4th, the fireworks would not be appreciated.
Thanks for the feedback. My daughter said the same thing lol. I may redo the video to eliminate a lot of the movement.
@@morganinspectionservices3840And if I may, the echo or large empty room sound quality makes it hard to listen to your voice. No offense, but if you remake for stable video, maybe also work on the audio also. I'm pretty ignorant about making videos so I can't offer any useful suggestions.
Thank you for the interesting video. I will be watching it more than once.
John
Why use the extension cord with DMM? Why not just measure the load voltage at each receptacle and record the results. The one with the highest voltage should be the upstream receptacle.
That is another option that would probably work just fine.
This is probably the best method. No extension cord or alligator needed. And if all outlets have the same voltage, then the outlet with the load is the upstream receptacle. It requires a more accurate meter (DMM), whereas the method shown in the video should work even with less accurate analog meter.
Why is the outlet tester showing power and correct polarity at 9:06 with your line Wire disconnected at your first outlet in the daisy chain?
Hi. That’s a great question. I apologize for the confusion. I had already recorded the disconnected part when I realized I needed to explain about checking the receptacles in the bedroom. When I recorded showing the receptacles in the bedroom, that receptacle in the other room was not still disconnected.
Ok, they make probe tips which are shaped like the blades of a plugin, which are pretty easy to use. I bought an assorted set of probes off Amazon, which included probes for receptacles. Additionally, I bought jacks, and made a plugin which goes in the receptacle, and has jacks for standard 1/8-inch probe tips.
I appreciate the info. I may just have to buy a set of probe tips to help me with other videos like this.
If the power was interrupted when you unhooked the first outlet in the chain why was the light on the kobalt circuit tester still illuminated , because the neutral circuit was still hooked up right.
No. Sorry about the confusion there. As I was putting the video together, I decided to go in and record the four receptacles as I said “you need to check that these four outlets are dead.” At that moment, the receptacle in the living room was not still disassembled. It was a video editing error.
Got it was just wondering 👍
Good deal
Very informative video
Im going to try the Klein RT390
Conduct 12A, 15A, and 20A load testing to measure percentage voltage drops
Amazon about 150$
@@freezetemp-hvac Thanks for your comment. I would love to hear what you find with the Klein RT390. It is definitely cheaper than the ideal suretest.
Couldn't it be possible for the feed to go to BR1 and then 2 branches come off of that, one to LR and one to BR2? Not sure why they would do that in a new construction but if they did, your test would not identify it unless you also tested between BR1 and LR.
I suppose that could be possible, but when I turn off the breaker and check for all dead receptacles, they were only in these two rooms, so I had identified all of the receptacles that I was dealing with before I started my test. The key is to identify all of those receptacles first, and I think that the way I was doing this test would work regardless of it branching off to other rooms or not. It might have become necessary to plug the extension cord/test apparatus into another set of receptacles, but I think with some logic that this method should work.
Hey can you do a video on capacitive coupling and how it plays a role in high voltage grounded and ungrounded systems? Nobody seems to have any …..practical conceptual videos for self learners interested in it.
I will put that on my list. I know a little bit about it, but not a lot. I will do some research and see what I can come up with. Thank you for the suggestion/request.
@ thank you you are the man! A god among men! Love how you teach fun stuff for self learners. I find the idea of high voltage and capacitive coupling fascinating. Basically I’d like to know:
1)
How and why does it occur in ungrounded systems under high voltage but not grounded? Completely confuses me.
2)
Could a human be capacitively coupled if hovering In the air under the HV in a grounded or ungrounded. I read a fluroudent light will glow under HV even if not touching the ground. Unless I misread!
3)
How could capacitive coupling affect a homes hot and neutral lines ?
Thanks so much!!!
Voltage drop can be used to detect 2-wire wiring faking 3-wire (in old houses) where ground is illegally connected to neutral at each outlet.
Yes, you are correct.
That's pretty sick. I did a voltage drop test on a 16 gauge extension cord with 800watt on it. It was a 7 volt differential on the cord itself. Same if hot to hot or neutral to neutral. When i tested hot to neutral at wall it was 124 volt and 122 volt at the end of extension cord.
What i don't understand is it's a 7 volt drop from hot to hot or n to n. But only a 2 volt difference from wall hot to n vs hot to n at the end of the cord
I think I understand what you’re saying, and I think I understand what’s going on. Let me try to explain. Let me know if this makes sense.
When you measured 124V “hot to neutral” at the wall and 122V at the end of the extension cord, that 2V drop is the net voltage drop across the entire circuit-including both the hot and neutral wires. The key here is that electricity flows in a complete circuit: current travels out through the hot wire to the load and back through the neutral wire. Both wires have resistance, and each contributes to the total voltage drop.
For example, If the hot wire drops 1V due to resistance, and the neutral wire drops another 1V, the total voltage drop from “hot to neutral” is 2V. This is what you measured at the end of the cord.
On the other hand, when you measure “hot to hot” or “neutral to neutral” along the cord, you’re isolating the voltage drop on just one conductor. That’s why you saw a larger 7V drop when measuring “hot to hot” or “neutral to neutral”-you’re focusing on the voltage drop across a single wire, not the combined effect of both.
So, the 2V drop “hot to neutral” is the result of the load current interacting with the resistance of both the hot and neutral wires, effectively splitting the total voltage drop between them.
@morganinspectionservices3840 I could have worded it better, yes that's what I was saying. I figured 7 volts is about 5% loss. Just wanted to see what it was. I thought your video was cool, thanks for the tips
I am a pretty good trouble shooter , but I could not follow you. I did run into this where about eight outlets some room lights and porch lights were out. It took me a long time to find the first feed box where the wires were quick pushed into the back of the receptacle had an open connection in it stopping the current to the rest of the outlets.
I am in the process of making a new and improved video that shows these methods, but it will also include diagrams and will be done better. Look for it within the next 24 hours or so. I appreciate your feedback.
Why does the wiring inside the wall cause a voltage drop, BUT the (50-foot ?) extension cord used in this test does NOT cause a voltage drop ??? Something doesn't make sense here.
That’s a very good question. The answer is that the extension cord does not cause a voltage drop because no current is flowing through the extension cord during the test. There must be current to cause a voltage drop. The voltage drop occurs on the neutral wire of the circuit because that’s where the load’s current is running.
@@morganinspectionservices3840 Thanks!
Lovely fun until the clip pops off and shorts to the hot pin. I used a couple of old salvaged 3 prong cords and put insulated banana plugs on to plug into the meter. The hot and ground wires are taped off. 100% safe. Be prepared to see 120 volts, because some outlets are wired wrong! If you use the tester first you'll find this though.
Good advice
Buying a plug end would be cheaper. Then solder on a banana plug to wire to go in the meter.Or plug is on another circuit.
I wired my rooms to every other outlet So I always had power if I needed to turn off a breaker.
That’s a great idea to wire your room with every other outlet on a different circuit. I have another video coming out, showing other methods to find the first receptacle in the chain. One of my methods uses the plug that I cut off the end of an extension cord. I appreciate you watching and commenting.
Ok, total noob here. I could follow what you were doing pretty well. Very interesting! (Informative comment section also!)
So, as a home owner, when and why would I need/want to know this information?
If I buy a newly constructed house, or have one built, should I ask for a copy of the wiring schematics for the whole house? Would that information be on file locally where building permits and inspection reports are generated, or is this info known only to God, the original electrical contractor and the inspector?
This would be a home physics experiment for me. That Ideal Suretest device is pretty spendy at ~$420-500.00. I found a Klein test device that seems to provide similar info for ~1/3 the cost of the Ideal unit but have to research it a bit more.
I do have a good multimeter and extension cords and my wife has at least one hair dryer, so could go that route for sure.
Thank you, sir!
Subscribed.
John
Hi John. I appreciate your comment and feedback. Typically the builder would have a wiring diagram. Most often doing something like this would come in handy on an older house that is not GFCI protected or that has ungrounded receptacles. A lot of people in the situations like to add a GFCI protected receptacle on the first outlet on the circuit so that it will protect all other outlets downstream. That is the main reason for doing something like this. Yes, the Suretest is rather pricey, and there are some other devices that do basically the same thing.
👍👍
Thanks
Too hard to follow. Do a diagram on paper to back it up what you're saying.
You pull by the cord? Seriously.....
You are not the first to point out that I pulled by the cord. That is not my normal way of doing it, but trying to work the camera and test equipment simultaneously…. I am already working on a new and improved version. Thanks for the feedback.
Iteresting in theory, but I’ll stick to removing the cover plate and disconnecting the receptacle then seeing which if any other receptacles are dead.
He didn't just state a theory, he showed a proof.
That’s fine. I’m just offering another option.
Major issue here is aluminum wiring that is speed wired into the outlet. Then you you pulled on the cord to unplug the tester, yikes.
There is no aluminum wiring. It is all copper. Yes, I did pull on the cord to unplug the tester. That was the result of me holding the camera in one hand and doing the work with the other hand. I’m surprised you’re the first one who’s commented on that. That is not something I normally do.
@@morganinspectionservices3840 I guess the small screen and color is a tad off, so I went to the desktop and big screen, and yes, now it looks like copper. But, speed wiring is still very dangerous, I can't tell you how many outlets I have replaced that were melted due to being speed wired(just plugged into the holes) I would love to see the difference in percent of drop if you wrap the wires under the screw.
@@morganinspectionservices3840I was going to comment on that, especially with it being so tight.
At least you weren’t unplugging the running hairdryer 😉
That is something you should never do. Haste is no excuse. @@morganinspectionservices3840
You didn't hardly have those wires pushed in the back of the outlet. Well we know you are not an electrician for sure!!!
Are you talking in the outlet that I removed the wires from? If so, when you saw it on video, that was the very first time I ever opened that outlet. I did not install that outlet. hopefully, a licensed electrician installed it since this is a brand new house.
@@morganinspectionservices3840 I apologize for assuming you installed it.
STOP SAYING "SO"!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the feedback. I will definitely work on that.