@@marcoslaureano5562 I disagree and agree with some of what you’re saying, I think guys like Sam Jones and Hondo are all time great players in their own right but other guys like Satch Sanders, Kc Jones, and Tommy Heinsohn we’re great players but aren’t hall of fame caliber and we’re helped out by Bill Russell’s greatness in terms of their HOF resumes
@@marcoslaureano5562 well yeah I mean obviously that’s the case in terms of the Ewing thing but it is what it is, Bill Russell is still one of the greatest players to ever play and elite in his talent too !
@@marcoslaureano5562 also I don’t hear people talk about Havlicek’s greatness like that, I appreciate Uncle Hays appreciating him because I don’t see respect on his name like that
Congratulations! You picked two great basketball players I respect and admire. I missed all of Dr. J's career in the ABA. I caught Havlicek's career on Sundays starting around 1974. Both these players were peak performers and found ways to help their teams win. I'd like to think Dr. J's 1983 NBA championship punctuated his greatness. He was at the end of his career and still made the most memorable dunk in a NBA championship game. Since I didn't see the Doctor play in the ABA I never assumed he scored all his points on dunk shots. When I see his ABA clips he had a mid-range jump shot to go with the dunks and layups. I mentioned the mid-range jump shot because I learned basketball without a three point line. All my favorite teams, the Bullets, the Knicks, and Celtics had players that could shoot jumpers and free throws. Boston was the team that seemed to be the team on TV more than my Bullets. The big boys in the neighborhood on the basketball court games mirrored the Celtics. Hondo was well admired by them and it trickled down to me. Hondo was a great. Dr. J was great. As they aged the fans could breath. Those guys would always make you take a deep breathe when they were about to operate. Great job, Uncle Hays.
Havlicek is one of the most underrated players EVER, in terms of peak overall level of play but also awards and accolades. Hondo’s definitely one of the very best forwards ever!… Still, I gotta go with Dr J, when it comes to both at their primes but also all-time rank (with EVERYTHING considered). I can see the case for Havlicek, especially regarding all-time ranks, yet I’d say Erving is above, and I’d pick him before Havlicek.
That was an amazing video! It's really hard to compare the two players as both were unique in their own way! For sheer athleticism, Dr J. is the man! For sheer consistency, Hondo gets my vote! Both players were very classy individuals both on and off the court!!
@@junestevens5123Magic had a lot of help Dr J had a lot of help in the NBA Nevertheless Bird was the best player in all of his 3 rings not sure if Magic and Dr J can say that
Hondo was the man! He never slowed down and never stopped moving. A massive presence on both ends of the court and the go to man in the clutch. Until Bird got there, he was the best that I saw play for The Celtics.
@@manny4552 Yes! It seemed he always had the ball in his hands in crunch time. He took most of the shots at the end of games,( made most of them), and if he wasn't scoring he would make an impact with a great assist or steal!
@@70sfan17 yes sir.. I was living in buffalo in the 1970s... Havlicek was in his thirties and he ripped my buffalo braves and ny Knicks apart for nearly the entire decade
@@manny4552 Those were fun times, I became a fan of Havlicek during the 68-69 season and followed him till his retirement. I remember waiting to the see the box score and if it was on the West Coast it wouldn't be included in the early edition, sometimes my transistor radio would get WBZ Boston and listen to Most do the play by play! not like now when you can follow any game live! The Braves were no joke with McAdoo and Randy Smith, Ernie D as well, they could really put some points up! Knicks with Clyde and Reed, Debusschere, Bradley etc, those games with the Celtics were awesome. For me, biggest regret was 1973 when Havlicek injured his shoulder, they won 68 games that year and may have been their best team ever! Havlicek would have had 9 championships!
Here is the problem with the argument. If the NBA counted on John Havlicek to survive, it might no longer exist. Evrving carried the league for 3 years until Bird and Magic arrived! And even that was by a thread! Without him, no one can prove to me the NBA would have lasted. Havlicek had virtually no effect on that.
And that wasn’t a prime Erving. Hondo’s resume is largely overtaken by Russell. Hondo did the scoring, but Bill always stopped the larger than life Center
I am pretty sure that when Doc came into the league people paid to just see him play dunk etc. I never heard anyone say let’s spend our hard earned money and check out John Havlicek.
Havlicek has always been an easy choice for top 5 SF, only being outpaced by Bird, LeBron, maybe Barry, Baylor, and Dr. J on a good day. I feel like all of those guys are easily the top 6 with maybe Kawhi hovering in there and players, like Nique, Worthy, Pippen coming into the fray.
points per game Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24) Assists per game Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206) Steals per game Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76) Rebounds per game DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250) Blocks per game DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239 FG% Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165) Lol LBJ Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
Two guys who got it done in different ways. They were both winners and inspirational. I’d have a really hard time picking either one of them. I love Hondo’s all around play as much as I love Dr. J’s athleticism.
Well they were both spectacular athletes.. erving got off the ground higher but havlicek was a perpetual motion bionic guy who never ever tired .. different types of great athletic prowess
Okay, liking this page. Was gonna be irked at the raw fg% talk but SO GLAD you mentioned efg% and broke down their actual scoring and what they shot, I love this with videos. You got a new viewer lol
That was a great video, you covered it all! Havlicek was my favorite player growing up, so I'm going with Havlicek as well! Erving's highlight reel looks more impressive, but he was not as good of an all around player as Havlicek. Havlicek had no weakness and was one of the most clutch players in NBA history. He had an incredible mid range jump shot, was one of the best movers without the ball, could score on a set shot or off the dribble, could lead a fast break or finish a fast break, great passer, great defender and great clutch shooter. Thanks for highlighting these wonderful players and ambassadors of the sport!
@@70sfan17 and he could shoot from three point range if he wanted to but they did not have that yet in the NBA..Paul silas used to talk about how havlicek could shoot from way out if he felt like it..and often did in practice in games
@@manny4552 Yes, Havlicek had great range, but like you said if you get 2 points no matter the distance you are from the basket, you might as well shoot from closer in. This is why players like Havlicek had such great mid range jumpers! It was also harder in the old days to drive to the basket because it was a more physical game and you had dominant centers that would swat away shots and knock you down in the process! The 3 point shot would have made things interesting in the 60s and 70s and changed the outcome of a lot of games, imagine Jerry West's 60 foot shot against the Knicks in 1970 would have won the game ( Lakers lost in OT)
You could not be more wrong!!! Dr. J more career points, 4 MVPs Havlicek did not come close, more All Star selections , more All League teams, more blocks and steals. The ABA was a better league than the NBA from 1973-76 so his MVPs meant more. Plus Dr.J was never a 6th man ! Also do your research better as Dr.J was not always a small forward as he played shooting guard for a lot of his last two years
Havlicek was only a sixth man for half of his career but still always played huge minutes..just a strategic move by red.. he scored over 30 000 points counting play off points . Thirteen time all star.. the aba was never better than the NBA.. havlicek was a perineal all defensive selection.. thirteen time all-star... Eight wins in the finals no losses . Two without Russell ... Won titles 14 years apart
This was extremely interesting and intriguing to me. I always thought that Dr J was better, especially if we are including his ABA days, as I believe he is somewhere between 10 - 15 on the all time list. But, you're analysis really stunned me in a good way, and although I'm not entirely moved on the matter, I do believe Hondo is now one of the more underrated basketball players in history. Overall, this is a great video.
points per game Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24) Assists per game Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206) Steals per game Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76) Rebounds per game DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250) Blocks per game DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239 FG% Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165) Lol LBJ Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
@@TheMeefive I don't know about Dr J being the GOAT, but if he fits your criteria, that's fine. I would probably have him somewhere in or just outside the top 10. A lot of people don't value his ABA stats or accolades, but I do. The ABA was just as good as the NBA in the early - mid 70s, heck, you could make an argument they were even better.
@@BBallGOAT Stats aren't MY criteria. They are just an indication of what players could do. DRJ was a better rebounder than Jordan, a better shot blocker and he had a better fg percentage. Clearly that's just facts When he was given the opportunity DRJ was just as capable of scoring thirty points a game as Jordan. Sixers management told him explicitly that they did not need him to score 30 points a game and cut his minutes from over 40 a night to 35.9, when DRJ was just entering his prime. That has nothing to do with my criteria, that's just facts. Dr. J was hanging with the cream of the NBA in the 80's regularly making the Eastern Conference Finals and three times made the Finals. Jordan couldn't beat any of the 80's super teams, couldn't even sniff the Eastern Conference Finals. That's nothing to do with my criteria, that's just facts. When Jordan started winning in the 90s, the 80s super teams were just fossils.. Jordan had the super teams in the 90's. That's just facts.
@TheMeefive Jordan isn't my GOAT. My personal GOAT beat the greatest Regular Season coming back from down 3-1 in the NBA Finals. He dragged a terrible Cavaliers team to the Finals in his 4th season at just 22 years old. He is the all-time leading scorer. He is arguably the greatest all-around player ever. He is the only player to average a Triple Double in the NBA Finals. My personal GOAT is LeBron James. I think Mike has an argument to be the GOAT, but I have him 2nd all-time.
@@BBallGOAT Look at the stats mate. Lebron took 4 extra years just to match DrJ in total rebounds. Rebounds per game isn't even close. DrJ averaged more steals, rebounds, blocks and has a better fg percentage than Lebron. The NBA pushes the Jordan vs Lebron debate but the stats just don't add up.
It really depends on what I need. Do I need a athletic rim runner that can cut whenever, rise up above the rim & garner me a couple steals & blocks a night? Or do I need a point forward who can shoot on-ball or off-ball, plays good defence & can also work his way inside when need be? I feel like I prefer Hondo in most cases but can’t deny Julius is great in his own right. Both are easily Top 10 for SF’s all time.
Cool video. I think it’s an apples and oranges comparison. Dr. J was primarily a scorer, while Havlicek was a better defender and had a better all-around game.
Dr. J believed that sharing the ball with George McGuiness, Lloyd Free, Darryl Dawkins, Doug Collins, Andrew Toney, Moses Malone, and Charles Barkley would make the team more successful. On an NBA team that needs 30 a night from Doc, it wouldn't have been a problem. The 4th quarter was all J.
It's not that he believed it, the GM and coach literally told him that they did not need him to score 30 a night and they cut his minutes down to 35 per game, which is why he went from averaging 29 points per game to 21 when he joined the Sixers. In the playoffs they let him play 42 minutes per game. He averaged 30.6 points.
Both were big time scorers.. winners.. great athletes.. passers.. defenders.. havlicek was a swingman.. erving forward.. but havlicek was a better rebounder.. and took more clutch shots at the end of games.. sometimes the difference between two guys is very subtle or small.. but havlicek was the guy who always seemed to be doing big things even without the ball... He was like having an extra head coach.. very smart.. he was just better without a huge tangible difference.... erving was more flashy and marketable.. maybe put more Fannies in the seats.... both were Superstars. But if I had to pick one in a draft for my team I'd take havlicek
Dr J... maybe im biased as a sixers fan but i also always acknowledge a players ABA achievements if they played in both leagues... especially considering how influential the ABA was and had a lot of star talent to.. but havo is definitely underrated
Great presentation. IMO, the point is not who was better, but look how good they both were. Having followed Hondo since his first game at Ohio State and interviewed him for a book, here is some added information on him. His name is pronounced Hav-ul-check by his family, but few media. The NBA All-Defense team was first selected in 1969, after John had been in the league for six years and when his focus turned to offense. Still, he made first or second team every year but one in the next nine years. Athleticism is more than jumping. Not only did John excel at 2 and 3 as you said, he played point in parts of most games and 4 when the Celtics were behind and pressing. Also, he was the first high school athlete to be first team All-Ohio in football, baseball and basketball. Woody Hayes said he would have been the best qb in the Big Ten; after graduating he was drafted by the Cleveland Browns and the last man cut, because first round draft choice Gary Collins, an All-American receiver at the position John was playing, could also punt. Then the Browns contacted him five more years, though he was an NBA star. Also, he hit .591 as a first baseman on the OSU freshman baseball team, then started the next two years on varsity. If there were a basketball tournament among worlds, with the winner being allowed to control the Universe, Havlicek would be sixth man for us - and probably lead the team in minutes played.
Thank you so much for all that great information! Havlicek was my favorite player growing up and I knew most of the info you mentioned but did not know about the pronunciation and the incredibly high batting average! I recall buying the newspaper just to see the boxscores from the previous day or trying to get reception and listen to the radio broadcast! Oh how I would look forward to the Sunday regular season broadcasts if the Celts were on! Aside from being a great player, it seemed to me he was a real gentleman, A stark contrast to the players of today!
@@70sfan17 His classmate, teammate and best friend through life, Gary Gearhart, simply said "John was the most outstanding Christian man I ever met." That about covers it.
Either you are uninformed or you're deliberately trying to be misleading. When Dr. J joined the NBA, the Sixers upper management told him that they did not need him to score 30 points a game. His scoring average dipped in the regular season because his minutes were cut to 35.9 per night. When they reach fled the playoffs, DrJ averaged 42 minutes per night and 30.1 points a game. The same big man and rim protectors couldn't stop him in the playoffs. The shame of it is that DrJ entered his prime when he joined the Sixers only to have his minutes cut.
Dr J saved the league. But Hondo was an animal. Dr J was the integrator of the NBA ABA merger. Hondo was a player was a Mamba like mentality player. He carried Boston to 8 rings.
So as someone who knows more about Doc and has him top 12 alltime, is this gonna imply John is top 12 also? Not instantly ignoring because of that but because I didn’t see as much of his. Doc’s defense was always underrated imo and never gets love which makes it hard to compare older players for me. Gonna watch now
points per game Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24) Assists per game Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206) Steals per game Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76) Rebounds per game DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250) Blocks per game DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239 FG% Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165) Lol LBJ Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
This is a tough one, but I ain't disagreeing or agreeing, they both are super great depending on the lense you look through either of them could be viewed as greater than the other. Julius impact on future greats and the NBAs growth like Hondo is underappreciated.
Well, first of all, when you're comparing TWO players, it's "greater," not "greatest." And without watching ANY of this, I'll tell you who the greater player was and they called him "Hondo" and he wore #17. Dr. J. had all the street flash and raw athletic power, but Havliceck's versatility and tenacity on the defensive end certainly gives him the edge. I don't think I remember Hondo dunking the ball even once in his 16 year NBA career, but look at his playoff statistics from 1965 through 1975 to see how great he was. He played in an era where they didn't record steals but he surely would have led the NBA more than a few times in his 16 year career if they had. Eight NBA championships, four ALL-NBA first team selections, four second team selections, and let's not forget his NCAA championship at Ohio State in 1960 either. Dr. J. played in the ABA during his prime years and of course was great, but no matter what anyone says, they really didn't play defense and it's not really fair to compare these players anyway. Why not Hondo and Rick Barry (not even close) or Dr. J. vs. Billy Cunningham? Of course Hondo played with the greatest player in NBA history, the immortal "Eagle With a Beard," Bill Russell, so who knows what he would have accomplished had he been the "man" for the first half of his illustrious career? He's still the greatest "6th man" ever and as far as I know the ONLY player in NBA history to be selected as BOTH a guard and a forward to an ALL-NBA first or second team. John was a pretty unique player and we'll not see his likes again.
Although I appreciate now having a more complete picture of the greatness of both players, I would argue that Havlicek and Dr J played in different eras with slight overlap (60's to early 70's and early 70's to mid 80's). Each era owes something to the previous one for giving them ideas on how the game can be played. It gives them a benchmark to both hit and transcend.. Both players are all-time top-5 players for their respective generations.
Doc is my favorite player, and I rank him as the 15th greatest player of all time. I’ve got Hondo a spot or two behind him. But, like you, I acknowledge that it’s close and just an opinion. Havlicek has all the credentials. Stats, longevity, winning, team play, defense, intangibles, and clutch. People don’t realize how strong and athletic he was. Not a great leaper, but a beast. Look at those broad shoulders and his endurance! Great analysis, Uncle Hays. I can respect your conclusion. And it really is a hot take. Check out the first video on my new channel. Doc dunking on giants. I’m about to post a video of Doc shooting jumpers. People were commenting that he couldn’t score well outside the paint, so I’ll respond. While he wasn’t a great shooter (inconsistent, as you point out), he was pretty good. You don’t score 30,000 points as a small forward without hitting a helluva lot of jump shots. Thanks for creating this video.
John Havlicek is my favorite player of all time, and I'm old enough to remember watching him throughout the '70s. But speaking of Doc, I remember him improving his jump shot later in his career.
points per game Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24) Assists per game Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206) Steals per game Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76) Rebounds per game DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250) Blocks per game DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239 FG% Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165) Lol LBJ Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
No disagrees with everyone opinions, but,, Havlicek didn't necessarily have to carry a team. If the Celtics didn't have Havlicek, I think they still would have won consistently.... But Doc, I'm sorry, was a way more athletic player, and the 76ers couldn't win without him ...
The Sixers were on the way up when Doc arrived in 76. Drafting Doug Collins and signing George Mcginnis put Philly on the upswing. Though they did make the finals his first year in Philly. After Russell and Sam Jones retired from the Celts 68-69, he was definitely the main man til about 75. Though no understating Dave Cowens arrival. Boston doesn't make finals without Havlicek, let alone win chips. Maybe win a first round playoff series. Of course I'll also say that goes for Philly without Julius.
Hard to choose which one is best because both of these guys were special athletes in there own way, but they are both gentlemen on and off the court...John havilcek was a member of one of the greatest dynasty teams the boston celtics that won alot of championships in decade with some great teammates such as Bill Russell, Jones boys (Sam & KC) Tom Heinsohn, Bailey Howell, Don Nelson, Satch sanders, Jo jo white, Paul silias Dave cowens and etc., while Dr.J played in the free sprited ABA and played with the Philadelphia 76ers that featured some solid ball players such as Moses molone, bobby jones, Mo cheeks, Andrew Toney, Sir Charles (Charles Barkley) Cadwell jones and etc...But Dr.J despite not winning alot of championships, he'll always be remembered as great gentlemen with high flying talent and his 1983 championship will never be forgotten and Hondo even though he has never won regular season MVP, he will be remembered as great gentlemen with great skills as he was instant offense and good on defense coming off the bench as the 6th man for legendary boston Celtics of the 1960s and main guy for 1974 and 1976 team
Doc was a human highlight reel , Hondo was the best defensive foreward of all time . Doc put fans in seats , Hondo put championship banners in the Garden
I'm a new subscriber to your channel and I love your videos. I have to go Hondo, easily the better player in my opinion because the majority of Doc's incredible accomplishments as a player came in a weaker league and Hondo is one of the most overlooked players in history
The NBA played against the ABA 155 times. The ABA won 79 times to the NBA's 76. In 1975 ABA teams beat NBA teams 30-17, The ABA had younger, more athletic players. Now you can continue to hold that the ABA was weaker based on your wishful thinking but the stats and facts paint a different picture.
@@TheMeefive The ABA was a weaker league that is a fact but I'm not knocking it. I believe the Kentucky Colonels were screwed and should be in the NBA. The ABA was a smaller league with the best big man in that league being Mel Daniels at 6'9" 220 before Artis Gilmore came in so obviously you're going to average many more rebounds per game in that league than you would in the NBA....case in point Gilmore, the Doctor, Connie Hawkins and more all were far better players in the ABA than they were in the NBA. They were All Stars in the NBA but they were otherworldly in the ABA, that's the point I was making. Anybody trying to make the case that the ABA was a better league than the NBA just doesn't know facts.
@@jeanwilde5357 Again, you are speaking your opinion based on what? I don't know. The facts say different. as to the Doc being a better player in the ABA, I beg to differ. When the Doc got to the NBA the GM and coach of the Sixers literally told him that they did not need him to score 30 points a game. Check the stats. In the ABA DrJ was playing over 40 minutes a game. The Sixers coach cut his playing time to 35.9 minutes. That's why his numbers went down in the regular season.. In the playoffs his minutes went back up to 40. He averaged 30.1 points per game; 10 points per game more than in the regular season. Again, I don't know how you all come up with these silly narratives when the facts are easily googled.
Great video & topic, as usual. Hondo is without a doubt one of the greatest players ever & THE best 6th man ever. The mechanic, no mere "bus rider" but he didn't lead the team until late in his career. I think Doc might be the best small forward ever as Bird was really a 4 who played 3 at times. I also think Julius accomplished as much or more than LeBron in less time against greater all-time greats.
Even though I'm a lifelong Celtics fan, I have to give the nod to Dr. J. He was the most electrifying player in basketball for about a decade, and my favorite non-Celtic of all time. That doesn't mean I don't think Hondo was great. He might be the third greatest Celtic, behind Russell and Bird. (Possibly 4th behind Pierce, but that's debatable.) His athleticism is underrated, and his hustle undeniable. But when I was growing up, Dr. J was the epitome of basketball greatness. Great video Uncle Hays. A fun comparison you might try is Elgin Baylor and Dominique Wilkins.
I would definitely take the doc at his peak over hondo. When Dr. J was on a hot streak he didn't miss, and he could put on the most beautiful display of lethal dunking, jump shooting, and layups.
They both journeyed toward superstardom and all-time greatness on different paths and different expectations. Havlicek was brought up slowly as a 6th man for the then greatest franchise ever. Playing under the leadership of Russell, Red, Cousy etc. And then once Russell retired, John smoothly transitioned into "the guy" in Boston and went on to lead the 74 and 76 Celtics to 2 titles alongside Dave Cowens. Dr. was THE guy, the face, the Ambassador, for both the ABA and eventually the NBA. He was the man and the main attraction almost from day 1 of stepping onto a professional court. That's a different level of pressure and responsibility that I'm not sure Hondo would have handled as well or successfully if he were given the same circumstance. Hondo was a more clutch performer, but all things considered, I think Doc J is ahead slightly.
You make some great points havlicek ..i watched him for years destroy my buffslo braves and ny knicks..was better All around.thsn dr j ..he was 8 and 0 in the finals..woukd have won it all in 1973 if he was not hurt he was the real mvp that season..in the early seventies while in his thirties he wss the worlds best player except for kareem...he scored over 30 ,000 points if you count playoff points...the top swingmsn in nba history..and if they hsd threes he would have excelled in that area too..great rebounder and passer..great basketball i q...perrienial all defensive team selection...hit more clutch last second shots than anyone except maybe bird.. and jordan ..hit even more than west.....
@@mistermousterian Chamberlain was a 1959 Cadillac with tail fins. Russell was a bullet-proof Mercedes Limo. Magic was a Delorean. Bird was a 1979 Ford F-250. Laimbeer was a 4 door BMW sedan with dents and blood stains on the front bumper and Jordan was the Batmobile.
The ABA was a different level of talent. There were a handful of very talented players. But the talent was thin. No way J would have his ABA stats in the NBA.
Facts disagree with you. The ABA had younger more athletic players Head to head in 155 matches the ABA won 79, the NBA won 76. In 1975 the ABA beat the NBA head to head 30-17. So yeah, it was a different level of talent. The ABA was better. But feel free to hold on to the delusion.
@@TheMeefive most of the guys who came over from the aba struggled big time after the merger.. with a few exceptions like Rick Barry who originally was in the NBA.. George gervin ..Dan issel . Bobby Jones ..Dr j and afew others
@@manny4552 How does that change the FACT that head to head the ABA won 79 times to the NBA's 76? How does that change the FACT that the ABA beat the NBA head to head 30-17 in 1975? Any narrative you can come up with to say the NBA was better can only be emotional wishful thinking in light of the concrete evidence.
@@TheMeefive yes the aba won 79 to 75 exhibition games.. but remember they were exhibition games and some NBA teams decided not to play in those games like Jerry west and his Lakers.. again if we go down the list of all aba stars who came over after the merger we can see how about 80 percent of them struggled badly once they got to the NBA and I can list all of the guys who came over and struggled if you want me to.. I still remember it
The Doctor was never a "6th man" . One on one ? Anyone not picking the Doc loses a lot of credibility. Hondo's 4 season peak, 1970 - 1973, saw the Celtic miss the playoffs twice and lose in the 2nd round the other 2 times. He's just not a guy that drives the bus, never any kind of MVP candidate. Havlicek was a career .439 shooter, not a great rebounder and a very similar assist guy as Erving. There wasn't a time that anyone would trade Erving for Havlicek , it's simply ridiculous.
@@lukesmith9692 DR J was a number 1 when he beat the Celtics in the Eastern Conference Finals in 1980 and 82, He was the number 1 when he won 2 championships in the ABA. And he didn't score over 30,000 points without a jump shot.
Great video. But peak Hondo all day over peak Dr. J. Erving was mostly a one dimensional offensive player. He scored a little more and a little more efficiently but he took easier shots and he didn’t affect the game on offense in as many ways as Hondo did. Hondo was a MUCH better playmaker who made his teammates better. I’d say they are about equal on offense and Honda outclasses Erving on defense by a mile.
Are you kidding? Dr. J was maybe the best shot-blocking small forward of all-time. A much better rebounder that Havlicek. A more dynamic scorer. Every bit the playmaker and (not withstanding a mediocre jumper) a very fundamental player. I'm 63. I loved Havlicek's game. But, in a match up where Doc is motivated, Hondo has no chance.
@@StevieAustin-ow3gc Dr. J wasn’t even close to Hondo as a playmaker. Hondo had 4 years straight averaging 7 assists per game. Dr. J barely averaged 5 assists 3 times. Hondo averaged at least 5 assists in 8 different seasons. But Dr. J was every bit the playmaker? Come on bud. Cool stat about blocks. Doesn’t mean anything though. In the same number of seasons Hondo had more defensive win shares than Dr. J. So it’s pretty conclusive Hondo was better on defense overall. Hassan whiteside got a lot of blocks too and he absolutely sucked on defense. So there’s that.
@@StevieAustin-ow3gc they are both all-time great players so there is really no wrong decision. I am not lucky enough to have seen either of them play but I think having watched them might make it harder to judge accurately due to emotional investment and memories/nostalgia. I am just looking at the numbers. Another point is that a lot of the Doc’s numbers came in the ABA, where the talent simply wasn’t as deep or as good as in the NBA. All of his best assist years came in the ABA. In his 11 NBA years he averaged 3.84 assists after averaging 4.78 in his 5 ABA seasons. As for rebounds, in the NBA he averaged 6.7 per game over 11 years after getting 12.1 per game in the ABA over 5 years. Dr. J’s NBA years were from his age 26 to age 36 seasons. During Honda’s age 26 to age 36 NBA seasons (to make it as fair as possible) he averaged 5.6 assists per game, almost two more than the Doc in his age equivalent seasons against similar competition. As for rebounds in those 11 age equivalent seasons, Hondo averaged 6.7 rebounds per game, the exact same as Erving at the same ages against similar competition. For defensive win shares, Hondo averaged 4.75 DWS in those same eleven seasons. Dr. J averaged 4.02 DWS in his. I’m struggling to find a single meaningful thing that Erving did better than Havlicek other than scoring slightly more efficiently, and that’s mostly because Erving’s game was mostly around the rim.
@@johnvaughan8239 Nice argument. But, I don't really rely on statistics in this issue. They played on different types of teams, played different roles, and had different approaches to the 3 position. Doc coming into a Sixers team and having to blend in with lots of gunners (McGuinness, Collins, Free, Jelly Bean, Dawkins) and later (Toney, Malone and Barkley). Erving, however, was the 4th quarter go-to. Havlicek was more guard-like in his play and didn't have to defer as much. As great as Havlicek was, I think Erving was just more talented. I also like how you think that my having actually watched them both play in real time makes me LESS qualified to judge. That's precious.
Your right havlicek was better... They played different types of games . Both are top twenty guys alltime on any intelligent list.. but havlicek is they guys id pick for my team
John Havlicek was the best team player I have ever seen. The consummate professional on and off the court. I wish I knew what happened to his poster that hung on my wall.
People from this time period tend to rate Havlicek very highly. My dad, my late grandpa, my uncle- they all rave about him. It is hard to think about a modern player to even compare him to because the game has changed so much. Pippen/Grant Hill type of guy without the same leaping ability, but definitely athletic.
Yes but I watched havlicek.. pippen and hill all play live for years and all three were great but it's not even close.. havlicek was by far the best of the three
Do you have Hondo over Jordan? Career stats have DRJ over Jordan by more than a hair. points per game Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24) Assists per game Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206) Steals per game Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76) Rebounds per game DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250) Blocks per game DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239 FG% Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165) Lol LBJ Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
hondo played 1 preseason for the Cleveland Browns and they said they had never seen such raw talent at WR and the only player faster was Jim Brown. I played with guys who could jump but weren't great raw athletes moving side to side and backwards shuffling their feet and vice versa. Hondo even looks fast at 37 in those clips vs Dr J
I watched both of them play live on TV and in person for years and I watched them guard each other.. both are top twenty players or higher of all-time but John havlicek wss a better all around player... I'd take him for my team if I had a choice
In the 1970s I watched havlicek outplay Jerry west.. Oscar Robertson. Walt Frazier.. bill Bradley.. Rick Barry.. billy Cunningham.. Elvin Hayes.. bob Dandridge.. jack marin.. chet walker many times in the 1970s .yeah he was that good
@@manny4552 Was Havlicek better all round than Jordan? DrJ was points per game Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24) Assists per game Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206) Steals per game Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76) Rebounds per game DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250) Blocks per game DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239 FG% Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165) Lol LBJ Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
@@TheMeefive I don't have stats in front of me but havlicek is still the Celtics alltime leading scorer with no three point shots and he certainly could shoot in that range . He scored over 30 000 points if you count playoff points. Eight time all defensive selection would have had more but they did not acknowledge those honors early in his career.. 13 time all-star... 8 and 0 in the finals won championships 14 years apart... Two without russell.... The best swingman in NBA history... Havlicek was an excellent passer and rebounder too and hit more last minute clutch shots than anyone except bird ... You take Dr j for your team I'll take havlicek.. I watched them both play live for years... would I take havlicek over Jordan no... over Dr j ... Yes
@@TheMeefive sometimes stats do lie... Havlicek out up huge numbers in an era where palming and traveling was still called.. and there was severe hand checking... With alot of giants in the paint .... and he still put up big-time career numbers. Anyway.... and havlicek played against a ton of the best NBA players in history in 16 years.. his era was not weak
@@TheMeefive Jordan havlicek and Dr j are all in the top 20 to 25 player list of all-time.. where you rank them is a matter of opinion.. I watched Dr j and Jordans whole careers.. and I watched havliceks last nine seasons... Dr j was flashy.. played above the rim.. havlicek only dunked the ball once a year.. but havlicek was a bionic man.. both were spectacular athletes... I'd love to have Dr j on my team he was a smart player ..good defender.. and passer too.. but if I had to choose between Dr j and havlicek for my team I'd take havlicek
First of all I like that during the video you call Julius Erving just Jay, but you talked about him so much in your videos that it's basically like you know him😁 The comparison between Erving and Havlicek is legitimate, and the latter is probably very underestimated especially because during the Celtics/Russell dynasty and the two titles won by the Celtics in the 70s he was always flanked by other Hall of Famers and MVPs, however I go with the more obvious choice, which is Erving Even though Havlicek was probably a more complete player, capable of playing guard and small forward, and a better clutch player even in the playoffs, Erving was a player ahead of his time, indefensible in the open court and capable of dunking on any opposing player, and although limited by a mediocre jumpshot, he remains one of the very few generational talents in the history of basketball Havlicek absolutely deserves to be in the NBA TOP 75, but Erving is a talent who changed an era of the game George Mikan Bill Russell Wilt Chamberlain Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Julius Erving Larry Bird Magic Johnson Michael Jordan Shaquille O'Neal Tim Duncan Kobe Bryant LeBron James Stephen Curry ..... I don't like making rankings, but these players are the few that I consider above all the others, and Doctor J is one of them🏀
Doctor J drove the bus most of his career. In the ABA, he was the bus. In the NBA, he drove the bus and did his thing. Hondo could drive the bus, but did not drive it like J did.
John was a great all-around player first of all you said that dr. J couldn't score but yet he won 3 scoring titles furthermore come into the NBA at age 28 that's not prime a real disturbing thing that you said was on Will you fail to say the doctor Jake could have been on the all-defensive team three times dr. J besides on Hakeem Olajuwon is only player to have 100 blocks and 100 steals 5 straight season also is the only small forward or with 1,000 block was NBA all time leader in steals when he retired make the playoffs every year. John had more success in playoffs for the same reason he had more triple doubles cuz of more talent John with how many Hall Of Famers well Julius play with one and talk like Doc doesn't have over 5,000 assists peak Doc has an MVP in his peak I'm confused 🤔 John is great apply for the greatest organization in the NBA thanks to Red elastic at the 76ers organization had Wilt , Iverson and Doc only 2 🏆🏆 Celtics 17 Lakers 17 and Knicks 2 the who play for the better organization John what you fail to say that but you fail to say or realize Doc is the 1st non center to score over 30,000 points also he has over 10,000 also talk about FG % and 40 points game ok NBA Doc games Hou ,Det and Cleveland where he make 60% and 40 and 2 or 3 of the same games damn near Quadple double but Hondo was great l great defense team player but Julius The Doctor Erving wins in my book .
With all due respect to the great Dr j...but if I was drafting players and had a chance to take just one of these guys for my team I'd take havlicek without question
Without even watching this,i was there to see some of this. If i haf to pick one,i would pick Hondo first. The Doctir wad a better player,but Hondo played better defense,was more of a hustler abd never stopped. He was perpetual motion.
I'll go with Dr J. I admired Hondo but Red Auerbach said that his favorite forwards were Bob Pettit, Elgin Baylor, Dr J and Larry Bird. Red didn't know whether to put Hondo at forward or guard.
Dr J was a far better mid-range shooter than you give him credit for, and scored most of his points from mid-range. Of course, people who didn't actually watch his career and go by highlight videos are going to assume he was all about dunks and acrobatic layups, but he was a skilled all-around scorer. The primary reason he scored less in the NBA was that he sacrificed shots at the request of team management. Doc was also a far better defender than you give him credit for. You touched on his blocks and steals, but fail to mention that he has by far the most blocks of any SF in history and is second in steals to Pippen. You look at all-defensive teams, where Havlicek had 8 and Doc 1, but neglect defensive win shares, where Doc was top 10 for 10 seasons and is 16th all-time for his career. Havlicek was only slightly better, with 11 top 10s and 15th overall for his career. So defense is relatively close, other than a subjective award, where Havlicek holds a big advantage. As far as comparing peaks, it's not coincidental that Havlicek's best years were when the ABA was at it's best and many of the most talented young players were in the ABA. If you want to discount what Doc did from 1971-1976, then you have to discount the NBA during those years as well, because the talent was drained by the ABA, particularly at forward. Havlicek deserves far more respect than he gets historically, he is easily a top 5 all-time SF, discounting Combo forwards like Bird, KD, and LeBron, but he is not at Dr J's level, who was the greatest SF of all-time.
You guys don't quit with the insults on DRJ. Would you ask if Havlicek was better than Jordan? I thin not. DrJ was better than Jordan according to their career stats. points per game Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24) Assists per game Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206) Steals per game Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76) Rebounds per game DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250) Blocks per game DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239 FG% Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165) Lol LBJ Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
Dr. J was one of my favorite players. He was in my five greatest of all time (the others: Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, LeBron James. Until last year, I replaced Dr. J with Steph Curry because of the championships Steph won compared to Dr. J. Dr. J. was a great impactful player and more of an athlete, but Havlicek won more championships and played a key role in every championship series in which he played. This is like comparing apples to oranges. If championships is the benchmark - the advantage is with Havlicek. Everything else - Dr. J.
You are wrong !! Doc was a far more dominant player in the regular season and playoffs! He changed the game and took it to another level. Havlicek did not come close to that !
. havlicek took and hit more last second shots than anyone except bird or maybe Jordan.. of course west hit alot too... and havlicek was a master at shooting on the move
Oh they're both in, for sure. 63 year NBA watcher here, up to the current era, Would definitely put them in top 20, ahead of, say, DWade or Rodman, both great players in their own right.
points per game Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24) Assists per game Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206) Steals per game Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76) Rebounds per game DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250) Blocks per game DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239 FG% Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165) Lol LBJ Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT I guess Jordan and Lebron don't make your top 20 either lol
There aren't many people who would pick Havlicek over Erving as the better player and there are many reasons for that. First of all you are comparing guys who played two different positions which is always messy. There is a reason Dr.J was considered the best player in the NBA from between 77-81 This is in a league that had Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Larry Bird in it. Even the advanced stats greatly favor Erving. But the biggest red flag was when you claim Havlicek was a better scorer even though Erving scored more points, averaged more points, and did both of those things more efficiently than Havlicek.
Havlicek played against Kareem.. wilt.. Baylor.. west..pettit.. Barry..Dr j.. Frazier Oscar etc.. and he scored over 30 000 points if you count playoff points .. with no threes and he certainly had three point range in his arsenal
This is an interesting argument either way. I'm a Buckeye, but also a Sixers fan ....Doc was better than Hondo. Very interesting... Doc was amazing, but Havilcek was awesome.....I mean it's 50 ~ 50.
I feel like Havlicek is one of the most slept on players all time, he was an elite player with an insane resume that no one talks about !
I totally agree with you!!
@@marcoslaureano5562 I disagree and agree with some of what you’re saying, I think guys like Sam Jones and Hondo are all time great players in their own right but other guys like Satch Sanders, Kc Jones, and Tommy Heinsohn we’re great players but aren’t hall of fame caliber and we’re helped out by Bill Russell’s greatness in terms of their HOF resumes
@@marcoslaureano5562 well yeah I mean obviously that’s the case in terms of the Ewing thing but it is what it is, Bill Russell is still one of the greatest players to ever play and elite in his talent too !
@@westies1962 thanks man 🙏
@@marcoslaureano5562 also I don’t hear people talk about Havlicek’s greatness like that, I appreciate Uncle Hays appreciating him because I don’t see respect on his name like that
Congratulations! You picked two great basketball players I respect and admire. I missed all of Dr. J's career in the ABA. I caught Havlicek's career on Sundays starting around 1974. Both these players were peak performers and found ways to help their teams win. I'd like to think Dr. J's 1983 NBA championship punctuated his greatness. He was at the end of his career and still made the most memorable dunk in a NBA championship game. Since I didn't see the Doctor play in the ABA I never assumed he scored all his points on dunk shots. When I see his ABA clips he had a mid-range jump shot to go with the dunks and layups. I mentioned the mid-range jump shot because I learned basketball without a three point line. All my favorite teams, the Bullets, the Knicks, and Celtics had players that could shoot jumpers and free throws. Boston was the team that seemed to be the team on TV more than my Bullets. The big boys in the neighborhood on the basketball court games mirrored the Celtics. Hondo was well admired by them and it trickled down to me. Hondo was a great. Dr. J was great. As they aged the fans could breath. Those guys would always make you take a deep breathe when they were about to operate. Great job, Uncle Hays.
@@salsaabcs8999 well said...as Dr j aged and his body showed down he worked alot on his jump shot..it got much better as he got older
Havlicek possessed elite athleticism.
Yes he did... The bionic man
Hondo got drafted by the NFL. i’d say his athleticism was on par
Yes, he was drafted as a wide receiver by the Browns.
Woodrow Hayes wanted Havilcek to be his qb
I really appreciate the kind of content you’re putting out. You do a better job of providing history for younger fans like me than the nba does imo.
Both are great!!
Winning aside: If you want to sell tickets, I'm telling you, it's Dr. J. 😊
Winning aside. Lol.
Havlicek is one of the most underrated players EVER, in terms of peak overall level of play but also awards and accolades. Hondo’s definitely one of the very best forwards ever!… Still, I gotta go with Dr J, when it comes to both at their primes but also all-time rank (with EVERYTHING considered). I can see the case for Havlicek, especially regarding all-time ranks, yet I’d say Erving is above, and I’d pick him before Havlicek.
Fair enough.. both great players
If course havlicek was a swingman
They did A LOT of scoring without the 3 point line.......
That was an amazing video! It's really hard to compare the two players as both were unique in their own way! For sheer athleticism, Dr J. is the man! For sheer consistency, Hondo gets my vote! Both players were very classy individuals both on and off the court!!
Yea everybody's classy until they play Larry Legend lol
@@MagiikJohnson don't forget his Hall Of Fame co- stars cuz he definitely had alot help .
Yes Hondo won championships with Russell but he also won on his own
@@junestevens5123Magic had a lot of help Dr J had a lot of help in the NBA
Nevertheless Bird was the best player in all of his 3 rings not sure if Magic and Dr J can say that
@@philserna25 9-0 without his injury in 1973 in my opinion
Hondo was the man! He never slowed down and never stopped moving. A massive presence on both ends of the court and the go to man in the clutch. Until Bird got there, he was the best that I saw play for The Celtics.
I agree well said.. and havlicek was a better all around player than Dr j
Man havlicek hit a ton of last second clutch shots for Boston in 16 years
@@manny4552 Yes! It seemed he always had the ball in his hands in crunch time. He took most of the shots at the end of games,( made most of them), and if he wasn't scoring he would make an impact with a great assist or steal!
@@70sfan17 yes sir.. I was living in buffalo in the 1970s... Havlicek was in his thirties and he ripped my buffalo braves and ny Knicks apart for nearly the entire decade
@@manny4552 Those were fun times, I became a fan of Havlicek during the 68-69 season and followed him till his retirement. I remember waiting to the see the box score and if it was on the West Coast it wouldn't be included in the early edition, sometimes my transistor radio would get WBZ Boston and listen to Most do the play by play! not like now when you can follow any game live! The Braves were no joke with McAdoo and Randy Smith, Ernie D as well, they could really put some points up! Knicks with Clyde and Reed, Debusschere, Bradley etc, those games with the Celtics were awesome. For me, biggest regret was 1973 when Havlicek injured his shoulder, they won 68 games that year and may have been their best team ever! Havlicek would have had 9 championships!
I'll never forget how Knick fans feared Hondo back in the early 70s when I first started paying attention to basketball. He was GREAT great!
Two of my favorite things: old school nba and Castlevania
Here is the problem with the argument. If the NBA counted on John Havlicek to survive, it might no longer exist. Evrving carried the league for 3 years until Bird and Magic arrived! And even that was by a thread! Without him, no one can prove to me the NBA would have lasted. Havlicek had virtually no effect on that.
And that wasn’t a prime Erving. Hondo’s resume is largely overtaken by Russell. Hondo did the scoring, but Bill always stopped the larger than life Center
I am pretty sure that when Doc came into the league people paid to just see him play dunk etc. I never heard anyone say let’s spend our hard earned money and check out John Havlicek.
@@drumbellyI did
@@drumbellyDr j was more flashy yes.. but havlicek was a better all around player
It's because he's whife.
Havlicek has always been an easy choice for top 5 SF, only being outpaced by Bird, LeBron, maybe Barry, Baylor, and Dr. J on a good day. I feel like all of those guys are easily the top 6 with maybe Kawhi hovering in there and players, like Nique, Worthy, Pippen coming into the fray.
Good insight and I agree
points per game
Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24)
Assists per game
Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206)
Steals per game
Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76)
Rebounds per game
DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250)
Blocks per game
DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239
FG%
Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165)
Lol LBJ
Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
Intestinal points.. yeah havlicek was awesome.. and of course he was a swingman.. the best swingman in nba history
Two guys who got it done in different ways. They were both winners and inspirational. I’d have a really hard time picking either one of them. I love Hondo’s all around play as much as I love Dr. J’s athleticism.
Well they were both spectacular athletes.. erving got off the ground higher but havlicek was a perpetual motion bionic guy who never ever tired .. different types of great athletic prowess
Okay, liking this page. Was gonna be irked at the raw fg% talk but SO GLAD you mentioned efg% and broke down their actual scoring and what they shot, I love this with videos. You got a new viewer lol
That was a great video, you covered it all! Havlicek was my favorite player growing up, so I'm going with Havlicek as well! Erving's highlight reel looks more impressive, but he was not as good of an all around player as Havlicek. Havlicek had no weakness and was one of the most clutch players in NBA history. He had an incredible mid range jump shot, was one of the best movers without the ball, could score on a set shot or off the dribble, could lead a fast break or finish a fast break, great passer, great defender and great clutch shooter. Thanks for highlighting these wonderful players and ambassadors of the sport!
You are quite correct here
@@70sfan17 and he could shoot from three point range if he wanted to but they did not have that yet in the NBA..Paul silas used to talk about how havlicek could shoot from way out if he felt like it..and often did in practice in games
@@manny4552 Yes, Havlicek had great range, but like you said if you get 2 points no matter the distance you are from the basket, you might as well shoot from closer in. This is why players like Havlicek had such great mid range jumpers! It was also harder in the old days to drive to the basket because it was a more physical game and you had dominant centers that would swat away shots and knock you down in the process! The 3 point shot would have made things interesting in the 60s and 70s and changed the outcome of a lot of games, imagine Jerry West's 60 foot shot against the Knicks in 1970 would have won the game ( Lakers lost in OT)
@@70sfan17 yes sir great points
Excellent video
Both great players good enough for me
Hot take but give me Hondo, especially NBA wise, he was one the best defenders ever at this position and always bought in during the playoffs
@@hctterrell well said
Love this video!
You could not be more wrong!!! Dr. J more career points, 4 MVPs Havlicek did not come close, more All Star selections , more All League teams, more blocks and steals. The ABA was a better league than the NBA from 1973-76 so his MVPs meant more. Plus Dr.J was never a 6th man ! Also do your research better as Dr.J was not always a small forward as he played shooting guard for a lot of his last two years
Havlicek was only a sixth man for half of his career but still always played huge minutes..just a strategic move by red.. he scored over 30 000 points counting play off points . Thirteen time all star.. the aba was never better than the NBA.. havlicek was a perineal all defensive selection.. thirteen time all-star... Eight wins in the finals no losses . Two without Russell ... Won titles 14 years apart
This was extremely interesting and intriguing to me. I always thought that Dr J was better, especially if we are including his ABA days, as I believe he is somewhere between 10 - 15 on the all time list. But, you're analysis really stunned me in a good way, and although I'm not entirely moved on the matter, I do believe Hondo is now one of the more underrated basketball players in history. Overall, this is a great video.
points per game
Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24)
Assists per game
Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206)
Steals per game
Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76)
Rebounds per game
DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250)
Blocks per game
DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239
FG%
Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165)
Lol LBJ
Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
@@TheMeefive I don't know about Dr J being the GOAT, but if he fits your criteria, that's fine. I would probably have him somewhere in or just outside the top 10. A lot of people don't value his ABA stats or accolades, but I do. The ABA was just as good as the NBA in the early - mid 70s, heck, you could make an argument they were even better.
@@BBallGOAT Stats aren't MY criteria. They are just an indication of what players could do. DRJ was a better rebounder than Jordan, a better shot blocker and he had a better fg percentage. Clearly that's just facts
When he was given the opportunity DRJ was just as capable of scoring thirty points a game as Jordan. Sixers management told him explicitly that they did not need him to score 30 points a game and cut his minutes from over 40 a night to 35.9, when DRJ was just entering his prime. That has nothing to do with my criteria, that's just facts.
Dr. J was hanging with the cream of the NBA in the 80's regularly making the Eastern Conference Finals and three times made the Finals. Jordan couldn't beat any of the 80's super teams, couldn't even sniff the Eastern Conference Finals. That's nothing to do with my criteria, that's just facts.
When Jordan started winning in the 90s, the 80s super teams were just fossils.. Jordan had the super teams in the 90's. That's just facts.
@TheMeefive Jordan isn't my GOAT. My personal GOAT beat the greatest Regular Season coming back from down 3-1 in the NBA Finals. He dragged a terrible Cavaliers team to the Finals in his 4th season at just 22 years old. He is the all-time leading scorer. He is arguably the greatest all-around player ever. He is the only player to average a Triple Double in the NBA Finals. My personal GOAT is LeBron James. I think Mike has an argument to be the GOAT, but I have him 2nd all-time.
@@BBallGOAT Look at the stats mate. Lebron took 4 extra years just to match DrJ in total rebounds. Rebounds per game isn't even close. DrJ averaged more steals, rebounds, blocks and has a better fg percentage than Lebron. The NBA pushes the Jordan vs Lebron debate but the stats just don't add up.
It really depends on what I need. Do I need a athletic rim runner that can cut whenever, rise up above the rim & garner me a couple steals & blocks a night? Or do I need a point forward who can shoot on-ball or off-ball, plays good defence & can also work his way inside when need be?
I feel like I prefer Hondo in most cases but can’t deny Julius is great in his own right. Both are easily Top 10 for SF’s all time.
Yes indeed
Cool video. I think it’s an apples and oranges comparison. Dr. J was primarily a scorer, while Havlicek was a better defender and had a better all-around game.
Dr. J believed that sharing the ball with George McGuiness, Lloyd Free, Darryl Dawkins, Doug Collins, Andrew Toney, Moses Malone, and Charles Barkley would make the team more successful. On an NBA team that needs 30 a night from Doc, it wouldn't have been a problem. The 4th quarter was all J.
It's not that he believed it, the GM and coach literally told him that they did not need him to score 30 a night and they cut his minutes down to 35 per game, which is why he went from averaging 29 points per game to 21 when he joined the Sixers. In the playoffs they let him play 42 minutes per game. He averaged 30.6 points.
Both were big time scorers.. winners.. great athletes.. passers.. defenders.. havlicek was a swingman.. erving forward.. but havlicek was a better rebounder.. and took more clutch shots at the end of games.. sometimes the difference between two guys is very subtle or small.. but havlicek was the guy who always seemed to be doing big things even without the ball... He was like having an extra head coach.. very smart.. he was just better without a huge tangible difference.... erving was more flashy and marketable.. maybe put more Fannies in the seats.... both were Superstars. But if I had to pick one in a draft for my team I'd take havlicek
Dr J... maybe im biased as a sixers fan but i also always acknowledge a players ABA achievements if they played in both leagues... especially considering how influential the ABA was and had a lot of star talent to.. but havo is definitely underrated
I’m a Celtics fan but I say the dr
Great presentation. IMO, the point is not who was better, but look how good they both were. Having followed Hondo since his first game at Ohio State and interviewed him for a book, here is some added information on him. His name is pronounced Hav-ul-check by his family, but few media. The NBA All-Defense team was first selected in 1969, after John had been in the league for six years and when his focus turned to offense. Still, he made first or second team every year but one in the next nine years. Athleticism is more than jumping. Not only did John excel at 2 and 3 as you said, he played point in parts of most games and 4 when the Celtics were behind and pressing. Also, he was the first high school athlete to be first team All-Ohio in football, baseball and basketball. Woody Hayes said he would have been the best qb in the Big Ten; after graduating he was drafted by the Cleveland Browns and the last man cut, because first round draft choice Gary Collins, an All-American receiver at the position John was playing, could also punt. Then the Browns contacted him five more years, though he was an NBA star. Also, he hit .591 as a first baseman on the OSU freshman baseball team, then started the next two years on varsity.
If there were a basketball tournament among worlds, with the winner being allowed to control the Universe, Havlicek would be sixth man for us - and probably lead the team in minutes played.
Thank you so much for all that great information! Havlicek was my favorite player growing up and I knew most of the info you mentioned but did not know about the pronunciation and the incredibly high batting average! I recall buying the newspaper just to see the boxscores from the previous day or trying to get reception and listen to the radio broadcast! Oh how I would look forward to the Sunday regular season broadcasts if the Celts were on! Aside from being a great player, it seemed to me he was a real gentleman, A stark contrast to the players of today!
Great points
@@70sfan17 His classmate, teammate and best friend through life, Gary Gearhart, simply said "John was the most outstanding Christian man I ever met." That about covers it.
Either you are uninformed or you're deliberately trying to be misleading.
When Dr. J joined the NBA, the Sixers upper management told him that they did not need him to score 30 points a game. His scoring average dipped in the regular season because his minutes were cut to 35.9 per night. When they reach fled the playoffs, DrJ averaged 42 minutes per night and 30.1 points a game. The same big man and rim protectors couldn't stop him in the playoffs.
The shame of it is that DrJ entered his prime when he joined the Sixers only to have his minutes cut.
Dr J saved the league. But Hondo was an animal. Dr J was the integrator of the NBA ABA merger. Hondo was a player was a Mamba like mentality player. He carried Boston to 8 rings.
Havlicek West and the Big O precursors to the modern game.
Pete Maravich
@@Alphasports576 about 10 years later, he brought the next level, then erving came along, Kareem was a monster..as it goes
So as someone who knows more about Doc and has him top 12 alltime, is this gonna imply John is top 12 also? Not instantly ignoring because of that but because I didn’t see as much of his. Doc’s defense was always underrated imo and never gets love which makes it hard to compare older players for me. Gonna watch now
points per game
Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24)
Assists per game
Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206)
Steals per game
Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76)
Rebounds per game
DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250)
Blocks per game
DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239
FG%
Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165)
Lol LBJ
Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
One thing for sure, Erving had the better highlight reel
This is a tough one, but I ain't disagreeing or agreeing, they both are super great depending on the lense you look through either of them could be viewed as greater than the other. Julius impact on future greats and the NBAs growth like Hondo is underappreciated.
Well, first of all, when you're comparing TWO players, it's "greater," not "greatest." And without watching ANY of this, I'll tell you who the greater player was and they called him "Hondo" and he wore #17. Dr. J. had all the street flash and raw athletic power, but Havliceck's versatility and tenacity on the defensive end certainly gives him the edge. I don't think I remember Hondo dunking the ball even once in his 16 year NBA career, but look at his playoff statistics from 1965 through 1975 to see how great he was. He played in an era where they didn't record steals but he surely would have led the NBA more than a few times in his 16 year career if they had. Eight NBA championships, four ALL-NBA first team selections, four second team selections, and let's not forget his NCAA championship at Ohio State in 1960 either. Dr. J. played in the ABA during his prime years and of course was great, but no matter what anyone says, they really didn't play defense and it's not really fair to compare these players anyway. Why not Hondo and Rick Barry (not even close) or Dr. J. vs. Billy Cunningham? Of course Hondo played with the greatest player in NBA history, the immortal "Eagle With a Beard," Bill Russell, so who knows what he would have accomplished had he been the "man" for the first half of his illustrious career? He's still the greatest "6th man" ever and as far as I know the ONLY player in NBA history to be selected as BOTH a guard and a forward to an ALL-NBA first or second team. John was a pretty unique player and we'll not see his likes again.
Although I appreciate now having a more complete picture of the greatness of both players, I would argue that Havlicek and Dr J played in different eras with slight overlap (60's to early 70's and early 70's to mid 80's). Each era owes something to the previous one for giving them ideas on how the game can be played. It gives them a benchmark to both hit and transcend.. Both players are all-time top-5 players for their respective generations.
He was sixth man in the beginning of his career but he still played big time minutes
Red always said not to pay a lot of attention to who starts, but who finishes.
Doc is my favorite player, and I rank him as the 15th greatest player of all time. I’ve got Hondo a spot or two behind him.
But, like you, I acknowledge that it’s close and just an opinion.
Havlicek has all the credentials. Stats, longevity, winning, team play, defense, intangibles, and clutch. People don’t realize how strong and athletic he was. Not a great leaper, but a beast. Look at those broad shoulders and his endurance!
Great analysis, Uncle Hays. I can respect your conclusion. And it really is a hot take.
Check out the first video on my new channel. Doc dunking on giants. I’m about to post a video of Doc shooting jumpers. People were commenting that he couldn’t score well outside the paint, so I’ll respond. While he wasn’t a great shooter (inconsistent, as you point out), he was pretty good. You don’t score 30,000 points as a small forward without hitting a helluva lot of jump shots.
Thanks for creating this video.
Can’t wait for that vid!
Can u do a top 10 nba player all time nxt! nice video
John Havlicek is my favorite player of all time, and I'm old enough to remember watching him throughout the '70s. But speaking of Doc, I remember him improving his jump shot later in his career.
points per game
Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24)
Assists per game
Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206)
Steals per game
Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76)
Rebounds per game
DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250)
Blocks per game
DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239
FG%
Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165)
Lol LBJ
Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
Great analysis
For defensive stats, you didn't count defensive rebounds too ?
No disagrees with everyone opinions, but,, Havlicek didn't necessarily have to carry a team. If the Celtics didn't have Havlicek, I think they still would have won consistently.... But Doc, I'm sorry, was a way more athletic player, and the 76ers couldn't win without him ...
Dr j played higher off the ground above the rim but havlicek wss a Superior athlete too and havlicek was more effective
The Sixers were on the way up when Doc arrived in 76. Drafting Doug Collins and signing George Mcginnis put Philly on the upswing. Though they did make the finals his first year in Philly.
After Russell and Sam Jones retired from the Celts 68-69, he was definitely the main man til about 75. Though no understating Dave Cowens arrival. Boston doesn't make finals without Havlicek, let alone win chips. Maybe win a first round playoff series.
Of course I'll also say that goes for Philly without Julius.
Hard to choose which one is best because both of these guys were special athletes in there own way, but they are both gentlemen on and off the court...John havilcek was a member of one of the greatest dynasty teams the boston celtics that won alot of championships in decade with some great teammates such as Bill Russell, Jones boys (Sam & KC) Tom Heinsohn, Bailey Howell, Don Nelson, Satch sanders, Jo jo white, Paul silias Dave cowens and etc., while Dr.J played in the free sprited ABA and played with the Philadelphia 76ers that featured some solid ball players such as Moses molone, bobby jones, Mo cheeks, Andrew Toney, Sir Charles (Charles Barkley) Cadwell jones and etc...But Dr.J despite not winning alot of championships, he'll always be remembered as great gentlemen with high flying talent and his 1983 championship will never be forgotten and Hondo even though he has never won regular season MVP, he will be remembered as great gentlemen with great skills as he was instant offense and good on defense coming off the bench as the 6th man for legendary boston Celtics of the 1960s and main guy for 1974 and 1976 team
Doc was a human highlight reel , Hondo was the best defensive foreward of all time . Doc put fans in seats , Hondo put championship banners in the Garden
I'm a new subscriber to your channel and I love your videos. I have to go Hondo, easily the better player in my opinion because the majority of Doc's incredible accomplishments as a player came in a weaker league and Hondo is one of the most overlooked players in history
The NBA played against the ABA 155 times. The ABA won 79 times to the NBA's 76. In 1975 ABA teams beat NBA teams 30-17, The ABA had younger, more athletic players.
Now you can continue to hold that the ABA was weaker based on your wishful thinking but the stats and facts paint a different picture.
@@TheMeefive The ABA was a weaker league that is a fact but I'm not knocking it. I believe the Kentucky Colonels were screwed and should be in the NBA. The ABA was a smaller league with the best big man in that league being Mel Daniels at 6'9" 220 before Artis Gilmore came in so obviously you're going to average many more rebounds per game in that league than you would in the NBA....case in point Gilmore, the Doctor, Connie Hawkins and more all were far better players in the ABA than they were in the NBA. They were All Stars in the NBA but they were otherworldly in the ABA, that's the point I was making. Anybody trying to make the case that the ABA was a better league than the NBA just doesn't know facts.
@@jeanwilde5357 Again, you are speaking your opinion based on what? I don't know. The facts say different.
as to the Doc being a better player in the ABA, I beg to differ. When the Doc got to the NBA the GM and coach of the Sixers literally told him that they did not need him to score 30 points a game. Check the stats. In the ABA DrJ was playing over 40 minutes a game. The Sixers coach cut his playing time to 35.9 minutes. That's why his numbers went down in the regular season.. In the playoffs his minutes went back up to 40. He averaged 30.1 points per game; 10 points per game more than in the regular season.
Again, I don't know how you all come up with these silly narratives when the facts are easily googled.
The So called "weaker league " won against the NBA more games than they lost ! Especially in the last 3 years of the ABA's existence ....
This is gonna be great, personally I have Dr.J. But can’t go wrong with Hondo all I need to say is 8-0.
Great video & topic, as usual. Hondo is without a doubt one of the greatest players ever & THE best 6th man ever. The mechanic, no mere "bus rider" but he didn't lead the team until late in his career.
I think Doc might be the best small forward ever as Bird was really a 4 who played 3 at times. I also think Julius accomplished as much or more than LeBron in less time against greater all-time greats.
Hondo had one of the best teachers on defense of all time. That gave him an advantage that most others would never had.
Even though I'm a lifelong Celtics fan, I have to give the nod to Dr. J. He was the most electrifying player in basketball for about a decade, and my favorite non-Celtic of all time.
That doesn't mean I don't think Hondo was great. He might be the third greatest Celtic, behind Russell and Bird. (Possibly 4th behind Pierce, but that's debatable.) His athleticism is underrated, and his hustle undeniable.
But when I was growing up, Dr. J was the epitome of basketball greatness.
Great video Uncle Hays. A fun comparison you might try is Elgin Baylor and Dominique Wilkins.
I've been a Celtics fan since at least as far back as 1970, and Havlicek definitely belongs ahead of Pierce in the rankings.
I would definitely take the doc at his peak over hondo. When Dr. J was on a hot streak he didn't miss, and he could put on the most beautiful display of lethal dunking, jump shooting, and layups.
Hondo. Without a doubt..tge doctor was great sldo..a total icon..very close. But hondo by a nose.
I agree
They both journeyed toward superstardom and all-time greatness on different paths and different expectations. Havlicek was brought up slowly as a 6th man for the then greatest franchise ever. Playing under the leadership of Russell, Red, Cousy etc. And then once Russell retired, John smoothly transitioned into "the guy" in Boston and went on to lead the 74 and 76 Celtics to 2 titles alongside Dave Cowens.
Dr. was THE guy, the face, the Ambassador, for both the ABA and eventually the NBA. He was the man and the main attraction almost from day 1 of stepping onto a professional court. That's a different level of pressure and responsibility that I'm not sure Hondo would have handled as well or successfully if he were given the same circumstance. Hondo was a more clutch performer, but all things considered, I think Doc J is ahead slightly.
You make some great points havlicek ..i watched him for years destroy my buffslo braves and ny knicks..was better All around.thsn dr j ..he was 8 and 0 in the finals..woukd have won it all in 1973 if he was not hurt he was the real mvp that season..in the early seventies while in his thirties he wss the worlds best player except for kareem...he scored over 30 ,000 points if you count playoff points...the top swingmsn in nba history..and if they hsd threes he would have excelled in that area too..great rebounder and passer..great basketball i q...perrienial all defensive team selection...hit more clutch last second shots than anyone except maybe bird.. and jordan ..hit even more than west.....
John Havicek was as electrifying as larry bird and michael jordan. It was such a pleasure to watch him!!! ❤❤❤
Dr. J was a 1967 Ferrari 330 P4. Havlicek was a 2006 Honda Accord.
John was the GT40
@@mistermousterian Chamberlain was a 1959 Cadillac with tail fins. Russell was a bullet-proof Mercedes Limo. Magic was a Delorean. Bird was a 1979 Ford F-250. Laimbeer was a 4 door BMW sedan with dents and blood stains on the front bumper and Jordan was the Batmobile.
Dr.J was for show - Hondo was for dough.
The ABA was a different level of talent. There were a handful of very talented players. But the talent was thin. No way J would have his ABA stats in the NBA.
Your right
Facts disagree with you. The ABA had younger more athletic players Head to head in 155 matches the ABA won 79, the NBA won 76. In 1975 the ABA beat the NBA head to head 30-17.
So yeah, it was a different level of talent. The ABA was better. But feel free to hold on to the delusion.
@@TheMeefive most of the guys who came over from the aba struggled big time after the merger.. with a few exceptions like Rick Barry who originally was in the NBA.. George gervin ..Dan issel . Bobby Jones ..Dr j and afew others
@@manny4552 How does that change the FACT that head to head the ABA won 79 times to the NBA's 76? How does that change the FACT that the ABA beat the NBA head to head 30-17 in 1975? Any narrative you can come up with to say the NBA was better can only be emotional wishful thinking in light of the concrete evidence.
@@TheMeefive yes the aba won 79 to 75 exhibition games.. but remember they were exhibition games and some NBA teams decided not to play in those games like Jerry west and his Lakers.. again if we go down the list of all aba stars who came over after the merger we can see how about 80 percent of them struggled badly once they got to the NBA and I can list all of the guys who came over and struggled if you want me to.. I still remember it
Havlicek was also an amazing football player who was also drafted by the Cleveland Browns.
Both were legends, celtic fan
The Doctor was never a "6th man" . One on one ? Anyone not picking the Doc loses a lot of credibility. Hondo's 4 season peak, 1970 - 1973, saw the Celtic miss the playoffs twice and lose in the 2nd round the other 2 times. He's just not a guy that drives the bus, never any kind of MVP candidate. Havlicek was a career .439 shooter, not a great rebounder and a very similar assist guy as Erving. There wasn't a time that anyone would trade Erving for Havlicek , it's simply ridiculous.
You were right about everything except the bus driver argument. He showed he could be the bus driver when he won his last 2 championships.
Dr J was a second fiddle to Moses Malone so what are you talking about. Dr J could never be the number one. Plus he had no jump shot
@@lukesmith9692 DR J was a number 1 when he beat the Celtics in the Eastern Conference Finals in 1980 and 82, He was the number 1 when he won 2 championships in the ABA. And he didn't score over 30,000 points without a jump shot.
Great video. But peak Hondo all day over peak Dr. J. Erving was mostly a one dimensional offensive player. He scored a little more and a little more efficiently but he took easier shots and he didn’t affect the game on offense in as many ways as Hondo did. Hondo was a MUCH better playmaker who made his teammates better. I’d say they are about equal on offense and Honda outclasses Erving on defense by a mile.
Are you kidding? Dr. J was maybe the best shot-blocking small forward of all-time. A much better rebounder that Havlicek. A more dynamic scorer. Every bit the playmaker and (not withstanding a mediocre jumper) a very fundamental player. I'm 63. I loved Havlicek's game. But, in a match up where Doc is motivated, Hondo has no chance.
@@StevieAustin-ow3gc Dr. J wasn’t even close to Hondo as a playmaker. Hondo had 4 years straight averaging 7 assists per game. Dr. J barely averaged 5 assists 3 times. Hondo averaged at least 5 assists in 8 different seasons. But Dr. J was every bit the playmaker? Come on bud. Cool stat about blocks. Doesn’t mean anything though. In the same number of seasons Hondo had more defensive win shares than Dr. J. So it’s pretty conclusive Hondo was better on defense overall. Hassan whiteside got a lot of blocks too and he absolutely sucked on defense. So there’s that.
@@StevieAustin-ow3gc they are both all-time great players so there is really no wrong decision. I am not lucky enough to have seen either of them play but I think having watched them might make it harder to judge accurately due to emotional investment and memories/nostalgia. I am just looking at the numbers. Another point is that a lot of the Doc’s numbers came in the ABA, where the talent simply wasn’t as deep or as good as in the NBA. All of his best assist years came in the ABA. In his 11 NBA years he averaged 3.84 assists after averaging 4.78 in his 5 ABA seasons. As for rebounds, in the NBA he averaged 6.7 per game over 11 years after getting 12.1 per game in the ABA over 5 years. Dr. J’s NBA years were from his age 26 to age 36 seasons. During Honda’s age 26 to age 36 NBA seasons (to make it as fair as possible) he averaged 5.6 assists per game, almost two more than the Doc in his age equivalent seasons against similar competition. As for rebounds in those 11 age equivalent seasons, Hondo averaged 6.7 rebounds per game, the exact same as Erving at the same ages against similar competition. For defensive win shares, Hondo averaged 4.75 DWS in those same eleven seasons. Dr. J averaged 4.02 DWS in his. I’m struggling to find a single meaningful thing that Erving did better than Havlicek other than scoring slightly more efficiently, and that’s mostly because Erving’s game was mostly around the rim.
@@johnvaughan8239 Nice argument. But, I don't really rely on statistics in this issue. They played on different types of teams, played different roles, and had different approaches to the 3 position. Doc coming into a Sixers team and having to blend in with lots of gunners (McGuinness, Collins, Free, Jelly Bean, Dawkins) and later (Toney, Malone and Barkley). Erving, however, was the 4th quarter go-to. Havlicek was more guard-like in his play and didn't have to defer as much. As great as Havlicek was, I think Erving was just more talented.
I also like how you think that my having actually watched them both play in real time makes me LESS qualified to judge. That's precious.
Your right havlicek was better... They played different types of games . Both are top twenty guys alltime on any intelligent list.. but havlicek is they guys id pick for my team
John Havlicek was the best team player I have ever seen. The consummate professional on and off the court. I wish I knew what happened to his poster that hung on my wall.
Good to see old arenas boston garden spectrum
People from this time period tend to rate Havlicek very highly. My dad, my late grandpa, my uncle- they all rave about him. It is hard to think about a modern player to even compare him to because the game has changed so much. Pippen/Grant Hill type of guy without the same leaping ability, but definitely athletic.
Yes but I watched havlicek.. pippen and hill all play live for years and all three were great but it's not even close.. havlicek was by far the best of the three
Hondo plays college football. He was drafted in pro football, but went to celtics. He was a terrific physical athlete. People don't know that.
Dr. J my favorite player of all time. I saw him play at Ruckers. I have Hondo over him by a hair.
Do you have Hondo over Jordan? Career stats have DRJ over Jordan by more than a hair.
points per game
Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24)
Assists per game
Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206)
Steals per game
Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76)
Rebounds per game
DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250)
Blocks per game
DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239
FG%
Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165)
Lol LBJ
Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
honestly peak for peak plyer you can't go wrong with either so I don't even feel the need to pick one over the other.....
Havlicek was definitely the better player.
JH definitely made his team mates better.
No way. Played with the superior team. That’s it
Your right and I watched them both play
@@Yapperofthecentury97 , he was the reason the team was superior.
@@silvianosanchez8430especially late 60s on. As Russell wasn't quite as dominant.
I love Johnny man underrated
I would like to have seen Doc and Wilt together in there prime!! They may have rolled off 3 or 4 maybe 5 chips in a row...
Havlicek, by a little
hondo played 1 preseason for the Cleveland Browns and they said they had never seen such raw talent at WR and the only player faster was Jim Brown. I played with guys who could jump but weren't great raw athletes moving side to side and backwards shuffling their feet and vice versa. Hondo even looks fast at 37 in those clips vs Dr J
I watched both of them play live on TV and in person for years and I watched them guard each other.. both are top twenty players or higher of all-time but John havlicek wss a better all around player... I'd take him for my team if I had a choice
In the 1970s I watched havlicek outplay Jerry west.. Oscar Robertson. Walt Frazier.. bill Bradley.. Rick Barry.. billy Cunningham.. Elvin Hayes.. bob Dandridge.. jack marin.. chet walker many times in the 1970s .yeah he was that good
@@manny4552 Was Havlicek better all round than Jordan? DrJ was
points per game
Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24)
Assists per game
Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206)
Steals per game
Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76)
Rebounds per game
DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250)
Blocks per game
DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239
FG%
Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165)
Lol LBJ
Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
@@TheMeefive I don't have stats in front of me but havlicek is still the Celtics alltime leading scorer with no three point shots and he certainly could shoot in that range . He scored over 30 000 points if you count playoff points. Eight time all defensive selection would have had more but they did not acknowledge those honors early in his career.. 13 time all-star... 8 and 0 in the finals won championships 14 years apart... Two without russell.... The best swingman in NBA history... Havlicek was an excellent passer and rebounder too and hit more last minute clutch shots than anyone except bird ... You take Dr j for your team I'll take havlicek.. I watched them both play live for years... would I take havlicek over Jordan no... over Dr j ... Yes
@@TheMeefive sometimes stats do lie... Havlicek out up huge numbers in an era where palming and traveling was still called.. and there was severe hand checking... With alot of giants in the paint .... and he still put up big-time career numbers. Anyway.... and havlicek played against a ton of the best NBA players in history in 16 years.. his era was not weak
@@TheMeefive Jordan havlicek and Dr j are all in the top 20 to 25 player list of all-time.. where you rank them is a matter of opinion.. I watched Dr j and Jordans whole careers.. and I watched havliceks last nine seasons... Dr j was flashy.. played above the rim.. havlicek only dunked the ball once a year.. but havlicek was a bionic man.. both were spectacular athletes... I'd love to have Dr j on my team he was a smart player ..good defender.. and passer too.. but if I had to choose between Dr j and havlicek for my team I'd take havlicek
Doc is the better player in every aspect Hondo is great and underrated but nah Doc was insane
Every aspect? 😂😂
Dick j was more flashy... That's it
@@manny4552 Doc was a main character Hondo was a side character
First of all I like that during the video you call Julius Erving just Jay,
but you talked about him so much in your videos that it's basically like you know him😁
The comparison between Erving and Havlicek is legitimate,
and the latter is probably very underestimated especially because
during the Celtics/Russell dynasty and the two titles won by the Celtics in the 70s
he was always flanked by other Hall of Famers and MVPs,
however I go with the more obvious choice, which is Erving
Even though Havlicek was probably a more complete player,
capable of playing guard and small forward,
and a better clutch player even in the playoffs,
Erving was a player ahead of his time,
indefensible in the open court and capable of dunking on any opposing player,
and although limited by a mediocre jumpshot,
he remains one of the very few generational talents in the history of basketball
Havlicek absolutely deserves to be in the NBA TOP 75,
but Erving is a talent who changed an era of the game
George Mikan
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Julius Erving
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Stephen Curry
.....
I don't like making rankings,
but these players are the few that I consider above all the others,
and Doctor J is one of them🏀
They is more than basketball to show a athletic a player.
Doctor J drove the bus most of his career. In the ABA, he was the bus. In the NBA, he drove the bus and did his thing. Hondo could drive the bus, but did not drive it like J did.
You can include Bobby Jones as a future HoF-er.
I've seen the doctor listed at 6'5
Maybe that was without the fro
John was a great all-around player first of all you said that dr. J couldn't score but yet he won 3 scoring titles furthermore come into the NBA at age 28 that's not prime a real disturbing thing that you said was on Will you fail to say the doctor Jake could have been on the all-defensive team three times dr. J besides on Hakeem Olajuwon is only player to have 100 blocks and 100 steals 5 straight season also is the only small forward or with 1,000 block was NBA all time leader in steals when he retired make the playoffs every year. John had more success in playoffs for the same reason he had more triple doubles cuz of more talent John with how many Hall Of Famers well Julius play with one and talk like Doc doesn't have over 5,000 assists peak Doc has an MVP in his peak I'm confused 🤔 John is great apply for the greatest organization in the NBA thanks to Red elastic at the 76ers organization had Wilt , Iverson and Doc only 2 🏆🏆 Celtics 17 Lakers 17 and Knicks 2 the who play for the better organization John what you fail to say that but you fail to say or realize Doc is the 1st non center to score over 30,000 points also he has over 10,000 also talk about FG % and 40 points game ok NBA Doc games Hou ,Det and Cleveland where he make 60% and 40 and 2 or 3 of the same games damn near Quadple double but Hondo was great l great defense team player but Julius The Doctor Erving wins in my book .
DR J IN MY ALL-TIME NBA 🏀 TOP 10 .. THE UNDERRATED JOHN HAVLICEK IS A TOP 20-30 PLAYER ..
I remember an NBA vs. ABA all star game Dr.j couldnt bring the ball up court who was guarding him HONDO! Havlicek all day🙏
Dr. J is arguably the best dunker I have ever seen .
With all due respect to the great Dr j...but if I was drafting players and had a chance to take just one of these guys for my team I'd take havlicek without question
Without even watching this,i was there to see some of this. If i haf to pick one,i would pick Hondo first.
The Doctir wad a better player,but Hondo played better defense,was more of a hustler abd never stopped. He was perpetual motion.
I'll go with Dr J. I admired Hondo but Red Auerbach said that his favorite forwards were Bob Pettit, Elgin Baylor, Dr J and Larry Bird. Red didn't know whether to put Hondo at forward or guard.
Dr J was the better player because he would change the emotion of a game.
Dr J was a far better mid-range shooter than you give him credit for, and scored most of his points from mid-range. Of course, people who didn't actually watch his career and go by highlight videos are going to assume he was all about dunks and acrobatic layups, but he was a skilled all-around scorer. The primary reason he scored less in the NBA was that he sacrificed shots at the request of team management. Doc was also a far better defender than you give him credit for. You touched on his blocks and steals, but fail to mention that he has by far the most blocks of any SF in history and is second in steals to Pippen. You look at all-defensive teams, where Havlicek had 8 and Doc 1, but neglect defensive win shares, where Doc was top 10 for 10 seasons and is 16th all-time for his career. Havlicek was only slightly better, with 11 top 10s and 15th overall for his career. So defense is relatively close, other than a subjective award, where Havlicek holds a big advantage. As far as comparing peaks, it's not coincidental that Havlicek's best years were when the ABA was at it's best and many of the most talented young players were in the ABA. If you want to discount what Doc did from 1971-1976, then you have to discount the NBA during those years as well, because the talent was drained by the ABA, particularly at forward. Havlicek deserves far more respect than he gets historically, he is easily a top 5 all-time SF, discounting Combo forwards like Bird, KD, and LeBron, but he is not at Dr J's level, who was the greatest SF of all-time.
You guys don't quit with the insults on DRJ. Would you ask if Havlicek was better than Jordan? I thin not. DrJ was better than Jordan according to their career stats.
points per game
Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24)
Assists per game
Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206)
Steals per game
Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76)
Rebounds per game
DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250)
Blocks per game
DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239
FG%
Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165)
Lol LBJ
Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
Dr. J was one of my favorite players. He was in my five greatest of all time (the others: Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, LeBron James. Until last year, I replaced Dr. J with Steph Curry because of the championships Steph won compared to Dr. J. Dr. J. was a great impactful player and more of an athlete, but Havlicek won more championships and played a key role in every championship series in which he played. This is like comparing apples to oranges. If championships is the benchmark - the advantage is with Havlicek. Everything else - Dr. J.
John way better on defense you have no idea
I'd take either one.
You are wrong !! Doc was a far more dominant player in the regular season and playoffs! He changed the game and took it to another level. Havlicek did not come close to that !
Well one could defend and shoot while the other could dunk
They could both do all that.
@@mistermousteriannaw he got it right
Not a good comparison. I 'd rather pose John vs. Kobe or Jordan. @@lukesmith9692
. havlicek took and hit more last second shots than anyone except bird or maybe Jordan.. of course west hit alot too... and havlicek was a master at shooting on the move
@@manny4552 Yeah there was a lot more running in those days, that was his game, nowadays it's stand around the perimeter and get back on defense
Dr j for me better hondo is great player but dr j is legend
NBA only, the debate is REAL. And both would barely make my top 20. 🙌
NBA only it’s relatively easily John Havlicek, but including the ABA you can definitely say the Doctor was better/greater
@@hctterrellthe aba was definitely weaker than the NBA
Oh they're both in, for sure. 63 year NBA watcher here, up to the current era,
Would definitely put them in top 20, ahead of, say, DWade or Rodman, both great players in their own right.
@@hctterrell including ABA, Dr. J is top 8 IMO
points per game
Jordan 30.12(#1) Lebron 27..2 (#6) Dr. J 24.16 (#24)
Assists per game
Lebron 7.33 (#24) Jordan 5.25 (#104) DR. J 4.16 (#206)
Steals per game
Jordan 2.35 (#4) Dr. J 1.96 (#17) Lebron 1.54 #76)
Rebounds per game
DR. J 8.47 (#135) Lebron 7.51 (#207) Jordan (not in the top 250)
Blocks per game
DR. J 1.67 (#45) Jordan 0.83 (#227) Lebron 0.8 (#239
FG%
Dr. J .5069 (#110) Lebron .5046(#123) Jordan .4969 (#165)
Lol LBJ
Stats don't lie. Dr J is the GOAT
I guess Jordan and Lebron don't make your top 20 either lol
There aren't many people who would pick Havlicek over Erving as the better player and there are many reasons for that. First of all you are comparing guys who played two different positions which is always messy. There is a reason Dr.J was considered the best player in the NBA from between 77-81 This is in a league that had Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Larry Bird in it. Even the advanced stats greatly favor Erving. But the biggest red flag was when you claim Havlicek was a better scorer even though Erving scored more points, averaged more points, and did both of those things more efficiently than Havlicek.
Havlicek played against Kareem.. wilt.. Baylor.. west..pettit.. Barry..Dr j.. Frazier Oscar etc.. and he scored over 30 000 points if you count playoff points .. with no threes and he certainly had three point range in his arsenal
When these two guys guarded each other I usually watched it on tv live and havlicek seemed to outplay erving usually
This debate....is about 50 Fiddy as you can get......you like Chocolate ice cream or Vanilla ice cream? Is there a wrong answer here?
Both were spectacular athletes...erving just had better leaping ability
This is an interesting argument either way. I'm a Buckeye, but also a Sixers fan ....Doc was better than Hondo. Very interesting... Doc was amazing, but Havilcek was awesome.....I mean it's 50 ~ 50.