Jim Cornette on Vince McMahon's Legacy
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.ค. 2022
- From Episode 441 of the Jim Cornette Experience
Artwork by Travis Heckel!
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For a generation of us born in the late 70s-early 90s he made all our childhoods awesome. We never knew the backstory of the territories etc and just got to enjoy the product for what it was
And back then, we never referred to it as "the product". It was just a fun show that roped us in with colorful characters and whack plots.
Agreed. The simplicity of it all back then made the industry believable. I mean it’s one man trying to beat the hell out of another man with such animosity. And now something like that today is not believable? It’s a damn mess now and for life of me I don’t get how the arenas still get packed
Unfortunately what it was, was crap.
@@judge218 because you were a kid. Kids who watch now think the same bc its just a show and they dont know how it works, nostalgia is a hell of a drug
@@wereallscrewed9714 I can understand that but today there’s no comparison right. Have you heard these kids actually talk about wrestling. I monitor my 8 year old when he’s online but his friends all know whats up because they follow the wrestlers and they’re not in character online. Kids talk shit how fake it is all the time around here. And that’s what sucks and my point.
As someone who grew up on the goofy 80's and was a teenager during the attitude era, I'm glad Vince was in the business.
AGREED
Same here. I’ll forever be grateful for the amazing things Vince did for the business. He’ll also always be my favorite heel, because he wasn’t your run of the mill heel wrestler, he was a heel you loved to hate because he was also the owner and billionaire. Actually, I rooted for him when he was in his Me. McMahon character, because I usually rooted for the heel, anyway. God, that man was great in that character. I miss those days so freakin much. Watching wrestling as a kid in the 80’s was magical. It was like watching cartoon and comic book characters come to life, and it seemed real to me as a little kid. It was indescribably magical. There’s just no describing the feeling.
BOO
"as someone who starts TH-cam comments with as someone who'
@@slimshead8100 stfu before i cry from nostalgia!
Making out with Trish In front of his wife who is in a vegetative state on smackdown perfectly captures Vince McMahon
That’s what I’ve said. That’s the Vince I want to remember. The genetic jackhammer who banged the divas.
Yeah he really is the man
My mom banned rasslin at our house for awhile because of that stunt
I think he was carrying out his sick fantasies all the time on that show. That's why he wanted an incest angle with stephanie
I was always a WWF guy. Especially the late 80s and early 90s. Was the best time as a kid watching all that shit. Saturday Nights Main Event and Superstars with Vince and Jessie. Prime Time with Gorilla and Bobby. Loved that time.
Saturday Night Main Event as a kid was epic. You looked forward all week to watch that show.
Facts
@@cflo1386 seeing SNME listed in the TV Guide that morning and I knew it was going to be a great week!
Vince's legacy is simple, he's the reason wrestling is still around. If not for him the entire sport would've died at the start of the 90s. People who are too young or don't do research have o clue just how bad a shape the business was in heading into the 90s, it was basically circling the drain and even the once powerful WWF was starting to struggle. As much crap as Bischoff gets he also deserves major props for carrying the business for 96 & 97. I know Cornette loves to think that the 80s style would thrive no matter the decade, but the reality is that if it could then NWA Powerrr would be doing much better.
wrestling had to change back then,that old style was getting so outdated...it needed an edgier approach ...
This is delusional, Vince killed the territories then put out a bad product
You'd also get a lot more hot young talent in the NWA pool, but best they can do is the old dudes who had their heyday 10-15 years ago in Trevor Murdoch, Tyrus, and Da Pope and one Nick Aldis who is content being the biggest fish in a small and once-again shrinking pond.
ALL FACTS. Thanks for telling the truth historically speaking.
The entire sport was dying in the 90's because Vince spent the previous decade killing it, and concentrating what was left under himself. We have no idea what/who would have happened to the wrestling business without him. Right now the wrestling business is a sliver of what it used to be, and the general population thinks that only retards watch it, so there is definitely room for improvement.
I know he's retired in writing but I feel Vince will always be the boss behind the scenes. He's a control freak there's no way he's completely out of the picture yet.
Don’t say things like that
@@pleaseshutup7053 shut up shut up
I agree
He's still a majority shareholder in the company
Can you picture him calling shots at home?
There’s no way certain decisions still won’t go through him, even if it’s over the phone or on zoom. There’s no way he’s walking off into the sunset.
Agreed Bro 💯
Unless he face jail time
they'll visitation him in jail to confirm storylines
I used to be incredibly critical of Vince for a lot of things but if I have to be honest my belief now is that one doesn't know how to appreciate some things until he loses them and since all of these things happen I had a talk with my friends, I just can't get myself to hate Vince anymore because he was my avenue to wrestling since I was a kid in my third world country, we just don't have wrestling here and when I fell in love with Wrestling was because of Vince and no one else and for that I thank him and while sometimes in my belief he was wrong about some choices he made more often than not he ended up being right about who he decided to put at the top and how to promote his business.
*"You listen to your audience, no matter where it's from, but sometimes the internet audience, a portion of it can be relatively biased and a bit harsh. So I don't listen to any of those. None of them"* -Vince Mcmahon the Genetic Jackhammer. GOAT
Great thing he didn’t
Grapefruits :)
Internet Audience is so dumb. No reason to listen to them.they never make sense they are just too much emotive/hater/troll. They are over negative or over positive
So Vince "listened to the audience" when he tried to ram Roman Reigns down their throats for five million years? Or when he ended Taker's streak like a popcorn fart that means absolutely nothing in hindsight?
Poor guy had to get cancer to finally get over. Otherwise they'd be still booing him right now.
@@henrygvidonas9573 ur crazy... cena got boo but was a fn star in merchandise sale ratings ppv buy. Ur clueless about wrestling. Wwe crowd are tough one compared the indy one who cheer at anything
He was the reason why many people started watching pro wrestling
He is also the reason why twice as many people stopped watching in the last 20 years. He is a business genius, but he is not a wrestling genius
Yup, when he got old he lost his touch.
Business geniuses don't chase off four fifths of their customers.
Business geniuses don't fail with every single thing they try to start from the ground up, instead of getting it given to them by daddy in a capital transfer tax fraud scheme.
Business geniuses don't employ clowns like Kevin Dunn, Bruce Prichard, and John Laurinaitis for decades.
Vince is good at manipulating braindead television executives into buying crap "content" at insanely inflated prices. I'll give him that.
I wouldn't even say he's a genius. I think he got away with a lot illegal business practices in his life because nobody looks at wrestling seriously.
Imagine if Google showed up to ISPs and gave them a briefcase of money to simply cancel any other internet companies using their internet. That would bring on a congressional hearing- Vince did it, and nobody cared because it was just a carnival attraction
Your comment was cool. Nothing against you. But I would disagree with your statement that he is not a wrestling genius. He produced Rock vs Hogan, Rock vs Stone Cold, Heartbreak Kid vs Bret The Hitman Hart, Jerico vs CM Punk. I understand that the Wrestling Observer doesn't want to give out 5 or higher star matches to every WWE match (until NXT Black and Gold came around and Walter/Gunther vs Dragunov in UK), but unlike other promotions, the WWE works year-round. What other promotion in the WORLD puts 60 or more pro-wrestlers/Superstars on 2x a week in top notch production? I'll wait for that answer because other promotions take breaks. Nothing wrong with a break but Vince needed a safer style to maximize the number of shows the promotion can do a year. WWE matches are too smooth, too choreographed at times, but improvements have been happening in the last 5 years in my opinion. To be honest, I don't blame Vince for the wrestling. After Cena, who was it? He kicked Punk out for younger talent. Remember? Roman, Rollins, Ambrose? All became world champions. All had storylines. But they weren't The Rock or Kurt Angle or Triple H. They couldn't cut promos in that fashion. So, when you have a young Roman who doesn't have the tribal chief swag yet but has the same look, of course Vince will still push. But Raw didn't have to start with a 10 15 min promo from Roman in 2014 if he doesn't know how to do a promo. Vince didn't want to reform his show around his new top guys who came up from Indy Promotions rather than the WWE. (Roman maybe a WWE product but Mox/Ambrose came from CZW and Rollins ROH) I think that's what happened to wrestling. Vince didn't want to produce a product based on the talent he currently has, just a product around what made Vince superior. And it backfired. People are not watching because the product is horrible, lol it was horrible in the 90s lol, it's because you can stream as many networks as can watch on cable. It's programming everywhere. But yeah, in my opinion he's a wrestling genius as well. Maybe a Marketing genius first true. But he's a genius overall in the business of wrestling and the sport of Sports Entertainment (Pro-Wrestling)
After 2007 vince lost his love for wrestling and treated it as a business as a whole.
I started watching WWF in 1992. My Dad tutted and said “it’s all fake.” And I was like, yeah, but it’s GREAT.
Same
Yup - when any of my friends or family would say that, I would always say that yes it is and then ask them what the last movie they saw was. Oh so Michael J. Fox and Christopher Lloyd didn't travel forward in time in a Delorean? Well then you are watching fake stuff too and getting lost in the story and moment. Explain to me how WWF is different.
Nobody could ever articulate that.
@@christophergargaro959 humans are so petty with stuff like that, just let people enjoy wrestling
WWE is a case study for why monopolies should not exist.
One thing that kills it for me wrestling nowadays is the wrestlers finishers. They used to be the end of the match, and you'd sometimes have a kick out on ppv or main events. Now you can watch a wrestler take 3 of them before they're down for the 3 count. Now when I see someone do a signature move I mostly go "They're going to kick out."
Thank You!! Fact is a finisher is no longer a finisher (unless you're Baron Corbin for some reason) it defeats the purpose of a finisher
It’s what happens when you allow Vanilla Midgets and Marks to become the inmates running the asylum …
@@alexandru5369 Exactly Bro
When you see the first and second finishing move on a WWE show, you don't even get excited because you know it's going to be a two-count if the match is supposed to "mean" anything. Every. Single.Time.
It's as boring and predictable as the run-ins in WWC at the end of every match.
As an old school fan of Jim's approximate age, I can say that even though I watch the current product, I truly miss the old days. Nowadays, even among your own commenters here on TH-cam, the majority only know of wrestling since the Hulkamania era or the Attitude era and have no clue that the industry existed prior to 1982 when Vince bought WWF from his dad. (BTW, it was a decidedly telling remark when Stephanie said on Smackdown on 7/22/2022 that her dad "founded the company"! Ummmm, Steph, your GRANDFATHER founded the company. Your dad simply bought it from him!) I started watching wrestling in 1968 at 8 years of age when Bruno was in his first title reign. I attended my first live event in 1973 at a WWWF show at the high school gym in my hometown of Brockton MA. I watched the Washington DC Heavyweight Wrestling program until it was cancelled, then I watched Championship and All Star Wrestling. By the time I was 13 I knew wrestling was totally fake, BUT I DIDN'T CARE! I loved the stuff anyway. And I still do, even though it can be mightily frustrating to watch because so much of what WWE gives you is the same matches over and over and over again, on TV and on the "premium live events." (God, I hate that phrase!)
@elc1960 I am 14 yrs younger than you, and I got into wrestling in 82 via the AWA and World Class. (I am not from the US) Since my introduction to wrestling wasn’t through the WWF, well I always found Vince’s vision too cartoonish, though I enjoyed the Warrior and loved Bret and Stone Cold.
I watch very casually now. Used to watch religiously anything from mid 2000s to the beginning but can barely stand it now. It's way too vanilla and way too insultingly scripted for my taste. Still try to keep up enough in case the odd gem comes along here and there.
@@rick83083 and what do you think of AEW? Do you watch it at all?
@@maturanita No opinion, haven't tried to watch it.
@@rick83083 I have. It’s Ok. Better than the current WWE product, but then, that is a really low bar…
His impact on the WWE was a net positive. He bought the biggest regional territory in 1982 & transformed it into a global juggernaut.
His impact on the industry however was a net negative. He took an industry that was thriving in 1983 & made it less popular through monopolization.
The industry would of collapsed without him. Like it or not Man
@@jkranites Strongly disagree.
Wrestling was thriving before he came into the picture. 1983 was a banner year for many territories. AWA, WWC, Memphis, Mid South, World Class, Maple Leaf, St. Louis and Mid Atlantic all had stacked rosters, hot feuds and drew big crowds. In that year, AWA drew 20,000 fans in St. Paul, Maple Leaf drew 20,703 in Toronto, World Class drew 21,000 in Dallas, Mid South drew 21,400 in New Orleans, and WWC drew 25,000 & 27,000 crowds in San Juan, Puerto Rico.
Vince is a fantastic promoter. That said, fewer people watch wrestling or attend wrestling shows now than in 1983, when he started his expansion. He has done a marvellous job at building his company over the last 40 years, but has made wrestling less popular in the process by ruthlessly monopolizing the industry.
The industry was better off when it wasn’t a monopoly and Vince was a hardcore monopolist hence why he went out of his way to sabotage the territories in the 1980’s. And after Vince achieved complete monopolization of the industry by buying WCW in 2001, the popularity of WWE & the industry kept declining consistently over the next 18 years.
@@jkranites pro wrestling is the greatest SPORT in the world Vince isn’t the only genuis mind to be apart of it
The industry was literally dying. Vince gave it a new fresh breath of life. Had he not did what he did , it would’ve wouldn’t of achieved the heights it has now globally
@@pleaseshutup7053 you guys do know AWA was going OOb right? And WCCW was because of the Von Rcichs troubles. Also Crockett spend himself out. The industry was dying and like it or not he saved it
Vince did a lot of great things in pro wrestling but he is also responsible to the death of pro wrestling. He killed the territory days with his national expansion. He turned wrestling into a cartoon. Southern wrestling was always the "real" wrestling which Vince hated.
So no I don't feel sorry that he's gone after doing some dumb shit. And make no mistake this was not about sex. He could have simply got some high price call girls for sex. This was about control. The same way he took over wrestling with a vice grip and killed business and careers alike. Vince you're not retired, you're fired!
Cable killed the territories. Vince just happened to be the guy who came in. If it wasn't Vince it would of been someone else. The territories were finished. Some of you have got to get that fantasy out of your head.
@@jkranites I agree with you. It was only ever going to be a matter of time, before someone came along and changed the business. If it wasn't Vince, it would have been someone else.
the world belongs to the living
Have any of you read about what it took to make it In the territory days? Guys living in their vans or cars. Eating scraps from restaurants when they could and wrestling in the same old gear for years until it fell apart. It’s a double edged sword. Talent may look and see the old days and wish pro wrestling would come back, but would they be willing to live the hard life to make it happen again? I’d say hell no. Wrestling would not be where it is or it might not exist period without how mainstream it’s become. The territories would have been out of business either way. Whether Vince did it or companies like UFC came around. Think about it, if WWE wasn’t what it is, UFC would’ve probably run “good ol’ rasslin” into the ground. The marketability of WWE to a world wide audience has allowed it to survive and thrive.
I’ve said it before I’ll say it again, the territories themselves were already dying by the 80’s. Anyone who doesn’t believe me can watch AWA’s Superclash III from and come to that same conclusion by the end of the show. Vince just stepped on their neck, and used the body to boost himself onto a National scale.
Let’s be real about this, long before Vince ever told the world that wrestling is fake, its not like people actually believed it was real. The jig has been up on wrestling since the 50’s, at least, and anybody with half a brain knew it. The reality is that Vince only confirmed what everybody already knew.
Yep they just didn't know the degree. The curtain was pulled back too far but that wasn't necessarily Vince's fault
Watch any wrestling clip from any territory in any era, and you will always find someone laughing, or smiling knowing full well it was a work. Anyone over 12 usually figures it out.
Hell it was exposed, in New York by Jack Pfefer when he fell out with the alliance between several top promoters, including Toots Mondt and top draw Jim Londos. By the end of 1934, sports writers refused to cover professional wrestling, and it became a laughingstock and went into a steep decline beyond the influence of the Great Depression.
*Actually, people knew in the 30s- the book 'The Fall Guys', detailing how pro wrestling wasn't real, was released in the 1930s.*
Dude come on people didn’t know it was fake during the 80s and attitude era, that’s what made wrestling so popular. WWE needs to stop breaking kayfabe and exposing the business on social media !!!
Jim is super intelligent no doubt. But, his idea that without Vince wrestling would be able to remain a secret is insane. People were already figuring it out. Vince could see the writing on the wall and decided to go another way. Cornette is completely wrong for blaming Vince. What does he expect people to think that folk would use an irish whip in a real fight?
Never underestimate the common stupidity of people. For evidence, I present to you the past couple of years.
@@dextersynesterformerlysorb5334 Not sure I understand your point?
@@amselite11tv you say people would have figured it out. I say people wouldn't
@@dextersynesterformerlysorb5334 I actually said they already figured it out due to (let's face it) the ridiculous nature of it. Imagine also seeing the UFC appear around 1993 and still trying to claim it was real fighting. Then social media appears. It would be an impossibility.
@@amselite11tv People are way dumber than you think.
I’ll always have a soft spot for 80’s era Vince in his baby blue WWF blazer.
Yeah let’s not mention Vince, WWF, and “Blue Blazer” in the same sentence pal.
“Stand back”
@@wilcee238 😭😭
@@wilcee238 Damn. I see what I did there.
@@wilcee238 aww noooo 😥😥
Vince is the greatest booker of all time.. I don’t believe that he killed the wrestling business.. he elevated wrestling to heights no one else could
The best booker is fritz or stu hart
He's a great businessman but a terrible writer
Up until the end of the ruthless aggression era. Then he jumped the shark
He doesn't really book anything. His writing teams always have.
HE ELEVATED HIS WWE WRESTLING BUT KILLED WRESTLING
Vince really is someone we needed for wrestling. For better or worse, we've had 4 decades of entertainment. From Hulkmania to the entire Attitude era, to ruthless aggression era then cenanation/PG era now. Gave us quite the history to look back on.
Yes one that has led to the smallest wrestling crowds in history. I think I got about 10 good years out of those 40.
He never cared about wrestling. He said so himself. Vince is the one who RUINED pro wrestling. Yeah, he gave us "sports entertainment", and most of us never wanted it.
@@milesalpha1 That's your story.
@@jtg1972 it’s funny how all major promotions are sports entertainment, it makes money.
@@brandondetroitfanmichaels4325 - Must be nice having Vince's Diet-Ice-Cream-Kangaroo in Yellow-Orange-Umbrella-Red mouth!
Cornette's take is bitter nostalgia. McMahon's legacy is being the Walt Disney of wrestling with killer licensing, a streamlined calendar year aligning with casual fan trends for their key events (like Sam Muchnick did); a campy, child-friendly product creating new fans, and running an enterprise placing primacy on character work when "real wrestling" felt it was too good to do that while equally marketing them in the apparatus. His rivals were backwards businessmen who became marks for their own product when almost everyone knew it was worked anyway. (Significant since Cornette was breaking kayfabe even in the early 90s.) McMahon's rivals did not collapse because he said his product was worked. He did that as late as 1989. "Real wrestling" was contracting for years, as early as the mid-70s.
Cornette blames McMahon for Crockett's fall. It's inexcusable that Gagne was making a doll line when Crockett never did - at least Jim Herd did one, and it was the best line WCW ever made given how schizophrenic ToyBiz was years later. Same with why Crockett joined PPV so late - almost 2 years since Wrestling Classic. He sabotaged Tunney in 1983, giving McMahon open access to the entire Canadian market. He got in major debt because Jim Ross convinced the bumpkin to buy up Mid South's syndicated television, morphing into debt. In light of all that, I'm starting to doubt the conspiracy theory that McMahon sabotaged Starrcade 87. Sounds to me like Crockett couldn't make the deals himself or was past due date with distributors, then blamed McMahon to others. I was in the air about Prichard's account but I'm going to listen to him again to see how well his defense of McMahon and Starrcade holds up. Bunkhouse Stampede drew 6,000 when a big WWF event would sell out. "Real wrestling" was dying for years. Let's not forget that the NWA was historically a CARTEL, so illegal. It's rich for these guys to cry foul over McMahon making good business decisions against crooks. And let's be serious: McMahon was the underdog against Turner. McMahon's national expansion was an investment and a MONEY BLEEDER, whose C crew got cut in November 1990 one year after their recession. Add in further falling business after Hogan left in April 1992, the steroid trial, that McMahon got RICO'd, the legal fees from that, and years of lost licensing and syndication. Production suffered immensely. Things were so bad that he used SMW undercard talent to offset costs and had the front office take paycuts. His defeat of Turner was the classic comeback story. McMahon is a baller
Ain’t nobody trynna read your autobiography
Thank you, these are all facts
Vince McMahon kept wrestling alive. Territory days would have died out, especially during social media era of life.
We need to protect kayfabe and not expose the business as fake on social media
@@ladistar if we all thought it was a real sport to this day questions would be brought up about why it’s not in the olympics etc. Anyways, Vince didn’t expose the business, Eddie Mansfield did.
@@jamiejones8521 No we didn't think it was real....I knew it was fake at 7 years old my sister would taunt me that it was fake but I didn't care because its an art form done by the coolest mfers on earth... Goldberg was almost a real life superhero to me. The trouble is wrestling have forgotten how to do it and the people that do it now are average Joe's who aren't believable in a physical fight...now I'm older I seen guys on building sites that look pysically more impressive that 95% of current day wrestling rosters
@@jamiejones8521 Wrestling become hijacked by the globalist woke brigade...that's where the fall started
@@rob8530 I agree completely. Nothing was a better watch for me even after my mom told me it was fake. Benoit fake and young bucks fake are different things though. It’s just not the same any more, not so much due to wwe either as the whole indies style has taken over
I wonder what Vince will do now with all of his newfound free time. I like to imagine him sitting on a park bench, feeding the pidgins, or maybe taking up model railroading, complete with a conductor’s cap.
“Feeding the pidgins”…😂
Somehow this reminds me of those Pablo Escobar memes.
@@dosdaysareover7781 Seriously, just imaging Vince shouting at a pidgin, “He’s...He’s gonna...He’s gonna puke!” 😂
Sounds like he'll pay women for sex.
He going to spend all his time on the gym now.
Unfortunately, people like him may not last long after they stop working. WWE is all he knows.
Brian would hate to ever admit he’s the fan he is and in the business he’s in because he started watching Vince’s product at a young age
He's jus too snotty and disingenuous to admit it. Every single wrestling fan is one because of wwe and vince. No denying that.
He said it just the other day on the Drive Thru actually...
@@SoelGriffin he never credits vince or the wwe for anything.
@@SoelGriffin doesn’t mean he liked admitting it
@@briangrossman5594 i kinda despise him for being a hypocrite and not calling out aew on their bullcrap. Corny is the only unbiased , honest guy here.
Vince figured out wrestling, in the end, is for kids. Kids seem to love wwe. Parents aren’t going to take their kids to aew when they crowd is chanting fuck this and fuck that lol. As soon as it was figured out that all of wrestling was fake most adults said screw this.
It’s a kids thing now. Is what it is.
Yep kids love wwe so their parent had to please them by taking them there, and every year there are new kids. that is why aew fans are mostly neckbeards
Even if i havent been watching for 15 + years I will forever be thankful for the decades of entertainment wwf brought me especially in my teenage years absolutely nothing was more important to me than the wwf from 1985 to 1990
There gonna be wheeling Vince in like Grandpa in Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2.
😃 😀 😄
This is what I’ve been waiting for.
People have known that it's a work since the 1930s when it was publicized in the newspaper so I don't buy this argument. Further the argument is that there were no crap gimmicks prior to events that doesn't hold either
This guy still believes that people today would still believe wrestling is real if it wasn’t for Vince.
When do we get “Corny Cards,” trading cards with Travis’s artwork?
Vince destroyed the wrestling industry to line his pockets. There’s only two wrestling promotions now and everyone knows wrestling is pre planned or “fake”
The wrestlers killed the business by exposing kayfabe on social media
@@ladistar Vince was destroying kayfabe well before then.
Yeah Vince did some good for wrestling but he really dropped the ball in a lot of areas mostly with the tag division he's done good work but he really should have hung it up a while ago
My issue with the kayfabe thing is that I knew wrestling was fake when Austin and Rock were the top guys. And I absolutely knew they knew who was gonna win. But if you want me to believe that that wasn't Dwayne Johnson and Steve Anderson giving everything they had to beat the other guys performance then idk what to say
Jim Cornette: "When people realized Luke Skywalker wasn't ACTUALLY Vader's son but was some guy who likes to pretend to swing a lightsword, then everyone will go fucking nuts."
This fucking guy 🤣
If only Vince retired earlier, he could’ve been Flair’s last match. It would be a ladder match for the non sanctioned AARP title.
Vince Russo: “Medicare card on a pole match!”
Vince was the man most responsible for destroying the territories. Take that as you will.
The territories is where all the best talent came from. Without it you got the indies which produced far lesser talent.
Ric Flair somehow has outlasted Vince McMahon in the wrestling industry
PS: Retirements in wrestling are not permanent.
Flair has not done much in the last 20 years (and god I wish he would stop, no way I watch his "final" match), Vince never stopped. Sorry Vince wins that one by a mile.
@@milesalpha1 not to mention alot of what Flair did past the purchase of WCW is owed to Vince. He was widely known for WCW/NWA/Jim Crockett, but Vince brought him in and made him seem like a big deal again. Put the respect on his name and treated him like a true legend.
No not really! He is no longer there. Been gone a while been begging to come back to.
I think the more accurate statement is "Ric Flair has somehow outlasted Vince McMahon at not getting cancelled".
I wish he hadn't of pushed out the territories. It cost a lot of talent and training areas.
Corny been on this same "wrestling should have never gone national " forever. Kayfabe was never gonna exist in 2022.
It was you are wrong
I dont know if I'd equate exposing the business to limiting the audience. The Avengers is scripted but Marvel movies are the most successful entertainment on the planet. Theres plenty of people that wanna see a show. The problem is that the product just sucks. It's not entertaining or compelling, theres minimal desire to tune in next week to see how things progress, it just happens. Worst part of exposing the business is just that there was now no more effort to make it believable or something to get lost in.
Exactly, kayfabe was never alive to be dead. Nobody's gonna believe the undertaker is a deadman eitherway. Its jus entertainment and we immerse ourselves into it and suspend belief.
Cornette has been saying for years how terrible it was for Vinny Mac to break kayfabe. But never has explained how you could have maintained it with the rise in popularity of Mixed Martial Arts, the internet, and the fact that pro football/baseball/hockey/basketball/soccer athletes started making 100xs what wrestlers make. Even the couple of thousand dummies that still thought it was real would have figured it out by now.
I was 11 years old when I witnessed the
Hot Rod Coconut in real time and then watched Hogan beat the Sheik about a year later..
Vince Mcmahon is a Comidic Genius.
If you think your local territory had a shock going up against Vince- imagine only ever watching "world of sport" + then suddenly it's the British Bulldogs Vs Hart Foundation, Savage Vs Steamboat, Hercules Vs Ultimate Warrior!! - what a shock to the system in the UK in 86/87
I gotta disagree Jim. My generation can sit down with full knowledge of it being "fake" and watch it like an episode of game of thrones. We know in game of thrones there the murder plots aren't actually happening but it doesn't take away from our enjoyment or immersion. We know these two athletic guys aren't trying to hurt each other but it doesn't take away from my enjoyment or immersion.
Nothing is fake about wrestling dummy
Cornette is delusional if he thinks anyone other than some dumb hicks and simpletons ever believed wrestling was a 100% legitimate sports contest. Never stopped the rest of us from appreciating, enjoying, and respecting it though.
Your Thrones analogy is spot on. Similarly, I know that Rocky vs Drago wasn’t a real boxing match either, but it never stops my enjoyment of it.
Agreed
The difference is they didn't bother to keep telling you it's fake every three minutes during the show, destroying any suspension of disbelief.
@@danieldonnelly3589 absolutely delusional. He has no experience in the business whatsoever. Never been a booker, nor a promoter. He wasn't part of WCW, WWE, TNA...never. He didn't even participate in the training of the biggest stars of this century (Lesnar, Cena, Batista, Orton). He has absolutely no idea about the history of the business, not an encyclopedia of wrestling whatsoever. This man has absolutely no idea of what he's talking about. He doesn't even know half as you, oh great connoisseur of the art of the business of wrestling. You clearly know better than him. What does this ignorant inexperienced prick know?
Regardless of Vince’s shady choices recently, Vince has been shady for decades. The fact remains that Vince revolutionized sports entertainment/ pro wrestling and has created mountains of memories for generations.
What's wrong with Vinces shady choices? What he's done is Literally not even comparable to what Former presidents and Hollywood and Company CEOs have done to kids
What's sports entertainment? It's just a Vince-ism.
"revolutionized sports entertainment". You mean the death of professional wrestling?
@@jamesparker6364 bruh
And probably committed a few serious crimes too.
Awesome Shoot Today Jim!!😎🐐🐐
what’s the over/under on how many weeks in a row Vince can control himself and NOT tune into Raw or be able to watch Raw without losing his mind. (Forgive me, Jim. I’m not comparing you to Vince but picture Jim watching Heyman-booked OVW.). Vince doesn’t know what free time is let alone what to do with free time.
I think it's something like 1000:1 given this is entirely for show and I guarantee you anything he's still the final say on the end of the phone. We'll be able to tell when we either get HHH or Bruce produced television.
Vince's work is the reason why I fell in love with wrestling, but also the main reason why I became to loathe the product and ultimately stopped watching the product around the mid to late 2000s. I also saw snippets of wrestling before the Attitude Era and tbh it wasn't to my taste either. So, in my opinion, he's responsible for some of the best and some of the worst wrestling as subjectively defined.
Vince goes down in shame flames. Sad way to end his era.
The only way he could go down. I suspected he would be murdered but this is more tame
He wasn't the man in the wrestling business... he was a man in the wrestling business that used his estranged father's wealth to poach talent and surround himself with the best minds and talent in the business to be successful... his empire was built on the backs of people that were a lot more talented and intelligent than him.
This is a very fair portrayal of Vince's legacy here. I know Jim is very old school which I love but the thing Vince did that I think he has a great point is made it cartoonish, especially in the 80's and early 90's when everyone had to have an over the top gimmick. Meanwhile you had guys like the Midnight Express who had a gimmick but it was rooted in reality.
By the time we got to even the late 90's and the Attitude Era where all the top guys like Austin, Rock, Michaels, etc. were told to be themselves with the volume turned way up, the horse was out of the barn because as much as promoters like to think wrestling fans are dimwitted, they are extremely smart and didn't buy the gimmick stuff anymore but know the business is choreographed (FWIW I will never ever call wrestling fake because guys take real bumps and perform real athletic moves in-ring).
This cuts both ways because you can argue that everyone knows that Arnold Schwarzenegger isn't a cyborg robot from the future but you watch Terminator on the big screen because you want to lose yourself in the story and moment. Pro wrestlers can do the same so even if you know the matches are choreographed and results are predetermined, it can be given a sense of reality where you lose yourself in the moment of the angle and match.
That was impossible to do in Vince's 1980's wrestling for anyone basically over the age of 12 because everyone had such a cartoonish gimmick. Even top stars like Hogan were so far over the top, it made smart fans think wrestling was in fact "fake" instead of choreographed. Fans knowing the latter I have no issue with; the former is a huge thing IMO.
I love Vince, he made me a wrestling fan with the first wrestler I ever saw being the larger than life Warrior, to how he presented HBK during the boyhood dream(and how amazing he was in ring) and everything else(aside from Mae Young's hand 😞) But I am interested to see if CM Punk's pipe bomb prophecy will come true and nothing will change of if it will. I think Triple H will do a LOT better than it has been compared to what Punk thought he'd do back then.
HHH will thrust the Vanilla Midgets to the forefront like he did in NXT and we know how that turned out?!…. 👀
@@constablekennedy7705 It was the best wrestling show on television and ratings were double what they are now?
@@constablekennedy7705 Man, I bet Jim Cornette hates all the weasels who talk and sound just like him, it's like a bingo card: "Outlaw Mud Show" etc
Vince, for me, is the person responsible for getting me into pro-wrestling when I originally never cared for any kind of sport. He drew me in around 85 because I became curious about this new toy that started popping up during my weekday and saturday morning cartoons with this guy (Snuka) diving off some stairs, followed up by other odd characters like the Iron Shiek and Hulk Hogan. Then I got to see the cartoon (which I actually liked because I was 10 or so) and eventually caught my first wrestling program on channel 11 where I saw Corporal Kirschner against some other military guy (not Slaughter) and seeing this insane crowd responding; later on the same broadcast, Hogan would come out to completely electrify the crowd and inspire a 10 or so year old kid that this was going to be one of his main passions in life.
Although I did discover other promotions like the NWA and WCCW, only the NWA at that time really had my interest. WCCW was hit and miss while we had Brian Last's favorite mud show indy promotion CCW with their nonstop crap looking bloody brawls at some random cocktail lounge while a body builder guy ripped off a Hulk Hogan head to get heat as the crowd pretty much was trying to boo the guy out the building. The thing is that Vince just knew how to attract someone like me in those days because he was so good at marketing.
If you really think about Vince's true genius, it really wasn't at pro-wrestling; it was marketing. He effectively had built a mass marketing empire with a sort of sports theme attached. I think for a long time he had a real clear vision about what his company should be and what pro-wrestling could evolve into. Brian Last talks about how the other territories simply were not equipped to fight Vince whether they wanted or not. Plus they weren't even close to Vince's level of ruthlessness and probably didn't want to think on the scale that Vince was.
One thing that Vince did in this conquest was ultimately killing pro-wrestling itself. I think the official death knell declared by Vince was the Montreal Screwjob but the growing cartoonish-ness of the WWF slowly was the thing that made people realize just how fake wrestling was. I think you can have certain types of heroes but you can't make them outrageous where they're unbelievable. Guys like a Mantaur or Bastion Booger were offensive and those things accumulatively just dismembered any credibility pro-wrestling had over time. But it did work to a degree for the kids at the time. It's just that once you grow up, you start realizing how dumb stuff like that is and there's no real rhyme nor reason for it besides trying to entertain Vince because of how he probably has seen and done it all by now.
But maybe that was his problem. He really had nothing else besides the WWE. Like for myself, I've always said that I've had two careers in writing and software engineering. Software engineering paid the bills but all the office drama, politics and people that I've met over the years helped fuel many of my stories. He's never been the outsider looking in and I think he had a single minded purpose since acquiring his father's original company.
You can't argue what he's done though for better or worse. I really hope some day a truthful memoir comes out because he's got to be the most fascinating mind in pro-wrestling. Personally, I wish I could have a full day conversation with the guy just to hear how he thinks and do a deep dive into what makes him tick.
Thank you for the thoughtful post, I enjoyed it.
That said, as I assume you already know, in this format, 99% of the folks here in this comment section will not read beyond the first paragraph, unfortunately, due to a lack of attention span combined with a lack of interest in anything that doesn't glorify themselves like their social media does.
I hate to break it to Cornette, but people largely knew wrestling was "fake" even back then. They just didnt know how. But I had TONS of people laughing at me when I was a kid in the 1980's and I thought it was real. And it wouldnt have mattered because while Vince couldnt have predicted the rise of the internet, once the internet, cellphones and social media became a thing in every household, the secret would have gotten out regardless. Kayfabe could NOT have survived the internet.
Vince McMahon is probably the greatest promoter of his generation. He put more eyeballs on the wrestling product than had ever been. He also was giving midcard talent more pay than they could get ANYWHERE. The times were changing and the product had to change with it. I miss those old days too. I miss the territories, and the feel of the crowd being so much closer, and the blood and the grittiness. But times were changing and changing fast.
Vince declared war on the territories and won.
The gobbledygooker was hilarious. I’m sorry, I liked it. Gobbledygook…
The video we've all been waiting 4
My biggest issue with Vince McMahon was that after WCW and ECW went under, it's as if he just stopped caring about putting out a good product. With no more competition nipping at his heels, he no longer put any effort to make it feel special. He got complacent and that's a big no-no when it comes to running a business. Even if you are the only game in town, you put your best effort into whatever it is you're doing as if you are competing to ensure a satisfied customer base. And Vince failed at that. It wasn't the lack of competition that ended the WWE's boom period. The thing is that despite how horrendous and badly booked the product was in its dying days, WCW still had a strong and passionate fanbase. A fanbase that Vince McMahon could've converted into WWE fans had he treated the WCW brand with some respect. This could've lead to a new boom period with the best of WWE, WCW and ECW as part of a super promotion. Because by acquiring WCW, as well as the select ECW guys that came over following that company's bankruptcy, the WWE found itself with the most stacked roster in terms of star power and work rate since the late 80s/early 90s. But unfortunately, ego and complacency played a major factor in that not becoming a reality. It wasn't the lack of competition that damaged the WWE's product, it was the inability to look past ego and arrogance to truly take advantage of the purchase to make an even superior product than before. Because if there is anything better than making money, it's making a shitload of money.
Someone needs to open the forbidden door WWE VS AEW
WWE is still the best wrestling organization of all time, some things could be better obviously but they are the best thanks Vince
They exposed the business as fake though
No, d'oh, and hell no!
I found out wrestling was fake on the same day I found out there was no such thing as Santa. Crushing news for a 8 year old at the time lol
Travis, my man... This might be your best ever! Just sayin' P.S. With all due respect, Corny, I love Tuesday Night Titans... The top three segments ever: 1) Dr. D David Schultz showing his guns and actually firing one by accident turning Vince McMannequin into Mr. McMahon on a dime 2. Terry Funk whooping Tony Garea in a saloon fight 3. Whenever Bobby Heenan was on: guaranteed hilarity every time!
There is an old quote where Vince told Ted Turner that he was in the entertainment business. Vince messed up professional wrestling to build an entertainment company but that is exactly what he set out to do.
In the seventies everyone watched wrestling to see the wrestling . In the nineties everyone was watching wrestling for the stories
We liked the mini stories too in the 70s, because they were raw and less like soap operas.
Fact remains retired or not Vince McMahon still owns like 38 percent of WWE stock or shares which is more than anybody and 83 percent of the voting power so he still basically owns WWE. He's just not going to be involved in the same capacity he once was. Until he gives that up WWE won't be sold or whatever other rumors related to that won't happen unless Vince says so.
81%
The drawing in this thumbnail is truly a work of art!💯
At first glance I thought it was Seth Rollins
In explaining the point of view of those were detracted from Vince's logic, Jim gave the most convincing argument as to why Vince was smart to do it. Keeping the industry small as Jim said would have been irrelevant, as eyes were going onto professional wrestling anyway, and even if Vince didn't know this, eventually none of it would matter as we would live in an age where any business, regardless of its size, would be revealed via social media, especially one that was purporting to be legitimate. Vince, as with many things he did, was ahead of the curve, and was rewarded with a vast fortune as a result of it. Did his actions eventually destroy the market for wrestling? That can be argued as a yes. It can also be argued that holding onto that carnival mindset was a sinking ship and he jumped out before someone else would have.
As Jeremy Irons character said in Margin Call, "There are three ways to make a living in this business: be first; be smarter; or cheat. Now, I don't cheat. And although I like to think we have some pretty smart people in this building, it sure is a hell of a lot easier to just be first."
How about they change the belts so they don't look like toys
My favorite Vince McMahon moment is Wrestlemania 23 battle of the billionaires
Vince getting his head shaved by Donald Trump, Bobby Lashley & Stone Cold Steve Austin
My brother and I grew up as old school (late ‘70s, early ‘80s) WWF wrestling fans. Both of us prefer the pre-national expansion years. Vince and Jesse in the late ‘80s was funny, but the magic was gone. Vince inserting himself into the drama as “Mr. McMahon” struck both of us as jumping the shark and we lost interest. In the long run he probably did more harm than good. (In my opinion.)
I absolutely agree with you ,in my opinion he ruined professional wrestling
@@mitzicarpenter2820 How did he ruined it when so many wrestlers wanted to work for him in the first place?
@@chadk890 they didn’t all want to back in the day if they wanted or needed the money they had no other choice the territories couldn’t compete with his money
As a person he clearly isn’t the best or probably not even a good one. But i don’t care what Twitter says because I will always thank him for what he did for my life. If it wasn’t for WWE (I was born in 2000) I wouldn’t have ever had a real relationship with my dad before he passed. I only saw him Weekends but Friday and ppv sundays were our days. While a shitty man a good businessman.
In '93 at 10years old, I knew it was a work. I Just Didn't Care. I gave up around '97 and the Attitude Era......Nowadays I like watching those old matches and Vince as the announcer.
Vince didn't expose the business, it was always obvious. He DID turn it into a soap opera. As a business man, that was brilliant.
Thanks for the memories.
I’m turning 40 this year and watched wrestling since I can even remember. I’ll say this much, growing up Hulk Hogan was larger than life. Now don’t get me wrong Flair was great but I didn’t see as much of Flair as I did Hogan. I watched wrestling every Saturday morning hoping just to see Hogan on there even if it was just an interview. I also do remember watching Mid South on channel 39 in Houston but I think Mid South came on Saturday nights and then WWF started coming on instead once Vince bought out a bunch of their stars. Around 1989 or 1990 WCW started coming on local TV and I got into watching them and I remember seeing Sting and Luger thinking they were trying to be Hogan. Flair was the champ forever and he was fun to hate. Then came this damn manager named James E Cornette and he got you stirred up and hoped that someone would come along and shut him up 😂.
As my teenage years came along the Monday Night Wars started and I spent Monday nights switching between RAW and Nitro. Monday nights were the best.
Thank you Vince for the memories. I know you didn’t want to ever retire but there is a time in life where you live instead of work it away. Enjoy it sir you deserve it!
Even as a child I knew it was a show. Never did I think that was real life but I wasn't born until 87 so wrestling had become cartoonist by then.
Thank you, Vince. There is only one “weirdo billionaire.”
🤦🏽🤣
Come on now, you can start in the 1920s/30s with Howard Hughes who out-weirded Vince by a mile.
Most billionaires are weirdos
Very much so.
Elon Musk says hello
VKM was still dumpin his clip at 77. That’s an inspiration to us all.
Your inspired by a rapist ?
Genetic jackhammer brother
@@drd9918 Vince Mcmahon is a rapist and I wouldn't be proud of that if I was you.
People who known Vince for years: He's a genius, the best ever, there will never be another
Marks on the internet: that crazy old man doesn't know what he's doing! I know better than him!
This started as a good argument, and then ended in "what ifs"
My thing is,all those old promoters were equally as out for themselves as Vince was,they just didnt have his ambition to execute it. I love Jim but lets be real Steve Austin hated the Jarretts so long because he had to live in his car and eat nothing but potatoes while working in Memphis and got paid dirt while Jerry Jarrett lived on acres and acres of land. Wrestlers would’ve NEVER made anything near what they would without merch,toys,gate numbers that WWF opened. Vince “telling everybody wrestling was fake” wasnt a newsflash and in a way he had to in order to not only explain the steroids but the brutality. At some point it had to be referred to as “Entertainment” to justify it,which IT ISSSS!
Jim is the best with his analogy and showing every side of the story
Vince’s legacy to me is he made wrestlers immortal because of the network and popularity. Look at all the older wrestlers making a comfortable living because of the network
"Look at all the older wrestlers making a comfortable living because of the network" How many actually are though, outside of the top names?
Was the Ted Turner thing really all in Vince's head? Turner put Nitro on Monday nights for a reason.
There's got to be a way to evolve the business past Vince. Can't put the horse back in the stable, but maybe go the other way. Good strong storytelling, where the matches support the story. Somewhere between Game of thrones and daytime soaps.
Make the struggle between 2 or 3 companies/families, (in story) where the wins/losses affect the dominance of the factions in story.
There's gotta be something there to use.
I want this thumbnail printed in a museum hahahaja
This genre of entertainment existed for about 38 years, since Hogan's appearance on Rocky 3 (1982) until the retirement ceremony for the Undertaker (2020). Hence, this genre of entertainment coincided with the hands-on involvement of Vince McMahon. It was a fringe, niche thing with a small audience before him, and will dwindle down to that after him (as is already happening).
video-gaming is still considered niche ,yet brings in more cash than all of hollywood combined,and it gets nowhere near the recognition that wwe gets...
As someone who grew up watching Tri-States Wrestling, the latter days of Leroy McGirk right before Bill Watts bought it and re- branded it into Mid-South, I could catch World Class on an Independent Station, and I could watch Georgia Championship Wrestling on TBS.
I have never cared for Vince MxMahon and his WWF with the cartoon stuff.
I stuck with WCW to the end.
After Benoit WWE died, Vince just fucking killed it
WWE has been dead since WCW went under in 2001
@@rolandmeyer7853 The Yes Movement? The Shield, Brock.
@@chadk890 They had a few good talents thru the years but the actual product itself has sucked since about 1993.
@@chadk890 the shield worked for like a year let’s be honest, it made 2 out of the 3 real stars
The brilliance of Vince McMahon is that he realized how stupid WWF fans were.
It’s going to be an interesting time indeed! The post Vince Era is shaping up to be fascinating and I am here for the ride. I grew up watching all things wrestling, and I understand the history of WWE. I was a baby during the 80s boom period of wrestling, but I grew up seeing the Monday Night Wars, Attitude Era, Ruthless Aggression Era, and the PG Era. I know enough about wrestling, but I’m still learning. I know Enought about every wrestler’s background story, history, and finishing moves.
I liked TBS and it's wrestling heroes and it's style. I liked WWE. I hated how Vince, once he defeated TBS, pulled in those heroes and regurgitated them as a lesser self.
Vince is the best promoter of all time.
I don't know how anyone can question that.
The point isn't that Vince told everyone it was fake, they knew that already. The point is that Vince tooled the product around it being fake instead of creating the illusion of reality. It's CGI animation in place of a carefully orchestrated movie stunt. And for the first few years, audiences will gobble it up. It's great when its done right. But after that, they recognize it and get bored, and then you have to do something else (Tom Cruise stunts in this analogy) like an ECW or a CM Punk to get the illusion back.
Cornette still has a stick up his butt that Vince "exposed the business." The business was already exposed in the 80s and trying to pretend it was legit was not working anymore. Fans were being embarassed out of their fandom by outsiders that take every opportunity to tell them it was fake. Vince just had the sense to swim with the current instead of against it. Business is about adaptation, you adapt or get left behind. If that's "killing the wrestling business" then I guess it needed to be killed. Keeping it more or less what it was in the 80s was just not realistic for it to grow. I have zero sympathy for those territory promoters that wanted to keep us in the smoke-filled, dark arena era.
“Watts would have taken a goddamn dump in the boardroom….”
Wow, is that statement seriously ironic in 2024….
Biggest positive of Vince's legacy was hands down the Mr. McMahon character. Stone Cold was the most popular wrestler of all time for a reason. He embodied the regular working class Joe wanting to stick it to the man. Or in this case, The Mc Mahon. And as iconic as Steve was in his portrayal of 'The Rattlesnake', he never takes off without Vince as his foil. It's wrestlings version of Batman/Joker and there will NEVER be a better feud.
Vince McMahon's Legacy = The Destroyer of the Worlds
If Vince hadn't broken kayfabe, someone else would have. And if he hadn't gone national, someone else would have. And it's not like wrestling was a clean business. I'm not sure Corny acknowledges this.