Focused On Failure | United Airlines Flight 173
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United Airlines Flight 173 was a scheduled flight from John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York City to Portland International Airport in Portland, Oregon, with a scheduled stop in Denver, Colorado. On December 28, 1978, the aircraft flying this route ran out of fuel while troubleshooting a landing gear problem and crashed in a suburban Portland neighborhood near NE 157th Avenue and East Burnside Street, killing ten on board.
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I had a co-worker who was onboard this flight when it crashed and he survived. It was chilling to hear him tell the story. When the aircraft ran out of fuel he said it was dead quiet in the plane. He said you could hear the wind noise outside it was so silent as the lights in the plane went out. That and people weren't panicking, but you could hear people mumbling prayers. He said one of the worst parts was that near the end you couldn't see any lights and you were frozen with fear just in the anticipation of the crash about to happen. He said it was a hard landing and you could hear the snapping of trees and hear the wings getting ripped off. Then as fast as it happened, it was over and quiet again. He and the survivors excited out of the broken parts of the fuselage and waited for help. There was no fire as there wasn't any jet fuel on board. As he tells it the plane only hit one house and destroyed it, but the sole homeowner had just left to the grocery store minutes earlier. He attended the 20th year reunion of the crash. I was so surprised that the captain attended the get together. He said people were kind to him and nobody seemed angry with him. It isn't often you meet somebody who is a survivor of a major airline crash and to hear his story was pretty riveting.
@Glenn Fletcher Glenn, I am not disagreeing with you. The pilot clearly didn't intend for this to happen and it was a mistake. He got fixated on a problem and lost focus. Also his fellow crew members didn't speak up clearly enough to the gravity of the situation. I was just surprised a bit personally that he attended the reunion as he was already racked with guilt, and that it would be tough to face the passengers and their families. At least for me it would be.
@@xxnanook A true tribute to the captain that he had the courage to face his passengers. Obviously a good man who made a mistake that sadly affected many. My heart goes out to him.
Glenn Fletcher - Well said!! Especially in this day and age where there is such a high standard of perfection. It’s unobtainable and childish... and selective to whom it’s applied, as you stated.
Humility and forgiveness are underrated qualities!!
Probably the best thing to happen was that it had no fuel!
I have reoccurring nightmares of being a passenger in a place crash, I have always been afraid of flying since as young as I can remember. In those dreams it is never less terrifying, even when I have had it so many times that I realize it is a dream. Looking out that window and seeing the ocean speeding near always makes me wake up so terrified.
I saw a sign once on a large construction site that basically said,, the two most dangerous workers were those who were new to the job and those who were well experienced.
I remember one person on the ground had his house destroyed by the crash. He went out to the store and came home to find his house gone. But he was alive. The house was empty because he lived alone.
It really makes you think about how life can just change beyond your control in a split second.
wow. just imagine. and well said, sir.
That cigarette run saved his life. Sometimes cigarettes are good for you.
@@user-ej2xz3lx2e That made me chuckle.
@@ac9110 lol I'm glad
@T
Maybe it was a tp run.
I was in flight training when this crash happened. My dad was a United mechanic at SFO. He new Capt. McBroom. He was very much an old school command and control captain. We studied this and other crashes while in school. In 1985, I started flying for United, and in 1987 I was a flight engineer on the DC-8-71. This accident was talked about endlessly. The how's and why's. First, when that metal rod is up, that is a mechanical indication that the main gear is down and locked. They should have landed then. They flew around another 50 minutes. When they said they had 5k pounds of fuel on board, they should have already been on the ground. When the fuel pressure light blink, you are under a 1,000 pounds in that tank. Those blinking lights tell you that your pumps are starting to suck air into them, lowering the pressure. This accident killed the flight engineer, the first flight attendant, and 4 Portland United mechanics returning home. It was 100% avoidable. I told many captains that tried to bully me a bit, if we are in the air with only 4,000 pounds of fuel, that cockpit voice recorder is going to have me on the tape screaming like a little brat.
Thanks for sharing this good information.
I totally agree Mike. Hell yes to screaming like a little brat!❤️👍✈️
Luckily he saved most of the passengers and plane intact. Accidents happen somehow.
Your able to use force on another co worker in the cabin if they aren't following procedure.
My graduating paper at Embry Riddle was all about CRM and this crash. It also landed a block and a half away from where my parents had a small rental house. I was in my mother's womb when it occured.
Seems McBroom was to blame, but notice the photo; he landed the aircraft in suburban woods yet it was hardly broken. The skill he used for that crash-landing must have saved a lot of lives.
Jim Davies If he had judgment and skill he wouldn’t have run out of fuel.
@@mannypuerta5086 He was just too focused on the landing gear. He is professional but was just too focused. At least he tried to save everyone onboard. Just landing in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Pooperhead1010 🤖 I was a DC-8 captain and check airman. This was a CRM study item for not how to conduct a problem. He was grossly irresponsible as a pilot in command. With his experience, he should have known better.
@@jubs0000 No, he was a prick in the pilot's seat. He was COMPLETELY unprofessional, and an idiot who wouldn't listen to others. If anyone needed to die in this crash, it was him!
@@SergeantExtreme Okay you're just saying that because your not even a pilot and dont know how to feel in that situation if you are a pilot.
The gear indicating rods were visible, so the gear was in a good enough condition to land. One of the biggest tunnel vision airliner crashes ever.
IMO, there's nothing wrong with spending extra time to resolve the conflict between the gear indicator showing the gear is down and the warning light displaying that something is amiss. Just like the rusty bolt that had failed, the gear indicator could have been faulty as well. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure......but it's not worth 5,000 lbs of fuel. The mistake was focusing too long on the gear problem and not realizing that even landing with a gear that collapses is better than flaming out all your engines. Also IMO, the First Officer should have gotten much more aggressive in getting the Captain to get the plane on the ground when fuel levels were dangerously low. Flight Engineer was only one with his head screwed on straight, and unfortunately paid the worst price.
@@python3574 This was sadly before the days when a FO could get more aggressive in the cockpit and push back against a Captain. This was still the days of strict unquestioned chain of command on the flight deck. This is pretty much what ended that. And you can follow what the Captain was seeking to do. He was concerned about the Landing Gear so he wanted to bleed off as much fuel as he could to reduce landing load and lessen fire risk. That makes sense. But he clearly had a mental picture of just how much fuel he had left that was at odds with reality and what his crew were telling him.
That's true. My first plane ride was on this flight at age 11. Was lucky it was a few years earlier tho.
Seems like the captain couldn't deal with the situation . Time is not on your side when flying ,every second your burning fuel . Even if the rods weren't exposed , he needed to land . Flying in a circle wasn't going to change anything except the fuel level in the tanks .
Its easy to say that now but he had two indicator lights essentially telling him two different things, one saying there is a problem with the landing gear and the other saying they are down. When you cannot actually physically see them its understandable why he hesitated, it was not paying attention to the other factors like fuel which really caused this.
Its surprising that you went into such detail about the aftermath of the accident Allec. We don't usually get to know what became of the pilots, assuming they lived to have a story after the crash. I really felt for this poor guy. Almost 28K flying hrs; think of all that experience! And yet not even all that flying time can prepare you for how to live with a death or deaths you caused because you neglected or overlooked something. And then all those health problems, his marriage falling apart, and depressed enough to be suicidal. I shed tears. This sort of thing really humanizes the story, and I would appreciate more of the same when possible. Really enjoy your videos 😀
No1 is perfect, even the most trained, most experienced person can make a mistake. Luckily for most of us, such a mistake doesnt come as such cost. I also think, its important to remember, that these were different times with different training and different procedures. And I truly applaud his superb airmanship in that miraculous landing, far too many pilots today do not have that ability, as they are trained more to monitor the planes than fly them.
Its truly sad, that ppl died due to an avoidable mistake. But the captain was a casualty too.
McBroom made mistakes and wouldn't listen, yes. But it appears he was sad and plagued about his errors, and it's sad that it affected him so much the rest of his life. RIP to him
Agreed
I wonder if something was up with him before the crash? Unhappy marriage? Miserable? Burned out? I've found myself catastrophising at work when under loads of stress for a long time. McBroom may have been doing something similar with his fixation on the possible gear failure.
sad it affected him so much? He killed people through his inaction.
@@soccerguy2433 What part of his suffering was going to bring any of them back?
So sad..Totally agree,especially as the accident could so easily have been avoided.
For a passenger plane to land in the woods and stay mostly intact shows Captain McBroom had some flying skills regardless of his mistake.
I disagree - You don't have much flight controls while your wings are busily chopping down trees in the dark.
In this situation, you can react but it's impossible to anticipate especially at speed.
Let's face it, have you ever tried to drive a 4wd through a forest at night with no lights.
It only stayed intact as it had no fuel left to go on fire.
My dad lived just a few blocks away at the time. He saw the news flash on the TV as he walked in the door from work, turned around and jumped back in his chevy pickup and immediately drove to the site of the crash. Walking through the dark and over the debris of the demolished house, he made his way to the fuselage and started helping crash survivors off the plane. Being an Air Force vet, he spoke of this often amongst other aircraft crashes he remembers back in the day. From time to time, I heard of this story during my childhood, but this is the first time I have looked it up.
I was a controller at ZDC when this happened. The one question that was always asked in the many conversations we had about this was why didn't anybody in the cockpit speak louder on the fuel situation. I was also a licensed pilot with a commercial rating and not to pretend I knew anything about the performance of the 8 and it's fuel consumption, but there is a certain amount of fuel that is unuseable in those tanks. I used to fuel these 8's along with other airline types in the early 70's before becoming a controller. 7000 pounds spread across 7 tanks, (4 mains, center and 2 reserves) isn't much fuel to indicate on those gauges. If I was working the flight, I would have asked about the fuel situation every 5-10 min or so and maybe suggest for them to turn towards the airport when the fuel got inside 5,000 pounds. This shouldn't have happened..
so pilot error then?
Nicky D Error in that he failed to monitor the fuel situation, yes
@@t0nyc0nde My thought, as well.
@@t0nyc0nde I flew with this captain as the flight engineer. As others have mentioned : he was a domineering prick who thought he was God. He would yell at other crew members event on normal flights. He thought that he was God's gift to aviation. I also believe that he had a short man complex. We hated to fly with him and avoided him whenever we could.
Ex FA here.....thank goodness for our constant CRM training!
I can only assume that the Captain was hearing the fuel quantity from the engineer, but forgetting that fuel consumption would be increased by a factor of about 3 with the gear down. My money would be on him assuming a typical gear up burn rate in his head and applying that to the total quantity on board, disregarding the flight engineer’s endurance estimates as erroneous due to the ‘Captain is God and other crew members are just assistants’ mentality of the time. Could be wrong, but I’m struggling to see otherwise how he could ignore such glaringly life threatening information.
Captain McBroom is the hero and the martyr. You can tell from the reunion that to the survivors there, he was a hero.
look man, wouldn't yo rather have a clumsy pilot who watched his god damned fool gages, did bumpy landings and never CRASHED? becuz I sho wud.
Y'all will call anyone a martyr... like it wasn't his fault the plane ran out of fuel.
I was working for United Airlines in Los Angeles at the time. I remember supervisors going around to everyone and informing them of the crash. We were told what to say and not to say to the public that called in. We were given some details of the flight; number of survivors (approx), etc. Some of the calls from family who had family members onboard would put a lump in my throat knowing the possibility of survival. But, we could say nothing as the facts were not all in. We could only take their information and it was forwarded to the sales department. It was a horrible feeling.
the flight engineer dying... the circumstances for this one are incredibly frustrating and tragic. great video, Alec!
Also the flight engineer was the only one noticing the problem way ahead...
@@christianschmitt2409 The flight engineer ( Frosty Mendenhall ) was a friend of mine, I used to go to his home to play chess. McBroom was one of those ( fortunately very few ) captains known to other pilots as "An accident looking for a place to happen." This was the final straw that led to the creation of the 3 day "CLR" ( Command, Leadership, Resources ) training all pilots had to attend. Too many disasters had happened within the industry precisely because of an arrogant prick in the captain's seat, and this was finally one too many. We had one of those in Seattle who will remain unnamed because he somehow managed to finish his career without killing anyone. He came beck from his 3 days, someone asked him what he thought of it. His reply. "It's OK for those that need it, You don't get it you jackass. YOU'RE THE ONE THEY HAD IN MIND!!
Christian Schmitt Yup, that’s what is so damn tragic about his death 😔
Bill Lawrence So sorry for the loss of your friend, Bill ❤️
@@billlawrence1899 Hey Bill, your description of the events and the players was exactly what I was told by those who flew back then . Another shit show was 227 into SLC. They tried to challenge him to no avail. Very sad.
This is all on the captain. He had all the information needed for a completely different outcome. Focusing on the problem is no excuse to not watch the clock causing a worse problem. This is basic project management.
It is sad that his life was ruined.
I dunno man. If it had been one of my loved ones who died in that crash, I never could have forgiven him, even after his life fell apart.
I'm so happy you did this one. I was nine years old at the time. Lived not far away from the crash... rip to the souls lost..
Spoiler alert
I was 3 months old.
I was about 2 1/2 months old. This is the first I'm hearing about this.
What is not stated in this video, is that the NTSB concluded that when the flight crew aborted the approach to troubleshoot the landing gear issue, it failed to raise the flaps to zero degrees. They remained at 15 degrees the entire hour flight 173 circled. As a result, the fuel burn was much greater than it would have been and was the proximate cause of fuel starvation.
17:00 I lived in that house just behind the tail! Not when this happened, but the people across the street from us were there. Also, there are now 2 houses and an apartment complex where that plane is sitting!
Legend has it the spirits of the Portland Intl mechanics roam the parking lot of the apartment complex, moving things around inside the vehicles. Residents also get reminders about low fuel in their cars. Nobody dares to park with less than a half tank!
@@12jazon Idiot.
@@badrasta5 ok boomer
@Skip Tiburon ok boomer
Damn. Spent many times talking about the crash and we always seemed to paint the CA in a bad light. But actually seeing him on video at the reunion hit me hard. That must have been tough for him. Makes you realize, we’re all human that have lives and families.
Absolutely families waiting for loved ones to land n then hear plane crashes!! Going around staying up there to long,caused the crash
This captain was a prick in the pilot's seat. He well deserves any coat of paint he gets!
There is no room for error.
@@SignedOff402 That's just not true. Practically every flight has errors, either large or small. The goal is to catch and mitigate those errors before something catastrophic happens.
It was very frustrating hearing the captain as he made decisions that were so obvious to his colleagues and everyone watching this video but I do feel sorry for him and the way his life played out after this. Such a sad story
Seeing the picture of the fully intact plane at the end I thought "everyone must have lived" sad that was not the case.
I could hardly believe the fuselage was not in at least three pieces.
I've always said that if the plane still looks like a plane after an accident,, means a fairly good chance of survival. Maybe there was some damage on the right side of the plane (which wasn't shown) that accounted for the deaths (the FE would have been on the right side near the rear of the cockpit, possibly the FA fatality was in a jumpseat on the right just outside the cockpit, and the 8 pax may have been in first class seats just behind the FA). Very tragic.
And don't forget, there were a lot fewer safety features in airplanes back then as well.
same
The forward bit broke off but the rest of it was intact (see linked photo) I believe all the fatalities were in the front or along the detachment point.
www.martianherald.com/sites/default/files/173-accident.jpg
Remember this one like yesterday. At the time my girlfriend's sister was dating the hospital administrator where the pilot recovered. I was told he suffered extreme remorse for the accident and they had him sedated heavily over concerns he might take his life. News media and UAL pilled on hard against him while still at hospital. Hospital tried to shield him from public but the uproar was relentless. Very sad situation all the way around.
That's yet another example of the media having way too much power. Factual news coverage is one thing -- cruel herd mentality is another. Yes, the captain made a grave mistake but should be recognized for landing the plane with intact fuselage. Not black or white.
I remember this tragic crash that never should have happened well. This crash , and others before that United had experienced in the 60's and 70's, was the impetus for UAL's then called Cockpit leadership resource management. I knew several UAL Captains that were senior to Mcbroom and they explained the training they received during this time. I remember them explaining role playing in different emergency situations and if I remember they were rated by number on their ability to delegate and problem solve as a team. For many such as Mcbroom, this may well have been a difficult transition. May the crew members and passengers who perished rest in Peace.
@Allec Joshua Ibay
can you do Bashkirian Airlines flight 2937/ DHL flight 611 mid air collission over uberligen, Germany? Please respond to this comment. Im a big fan.
The ironic thing is that very CRM training helped save the lives of 185 passengers and crew when United 232 crashed in Sioux City 11 years later.
as, FA here...now all cockpit and cabin crew do CRM training together, initial and frequent recurrent training.
I was almost 8 years old and just over a mile away when this happened. Even at that age I still remember it vividly.
I was about 13 when that crashed happened. Just a few days after the crash, my family and I were able to go right up to that plane and look inside. I don’t remember anyone else around and no barriers to keep people out. It was kind of strange.
Man, this one actually pissed me off. The Captain kept delaying the inevitable, you've gotta put your bird down gear problems or not, his incompetency cost 10 people their lives. He just WOULDN'T LISTEN.
This crash was the single greatest driver of the crew resource management (CRM) revolution which has saved thousands and thousands of lives. Capt. McBroom's mistake had a silver lining.
@@ChimpWithACar sad but tragedy drives progress,the Titanic sinking is another good example of that
if i had been one of the other people in the cockpit, I would have put up a hiss and stood up for what was right, until he backed down or something changed! I dont' care if he ended up yelling or getting furious. I'd rather have that than anyone's lives ending.
@Tk -526 Thanks Captain Hindsight.
The captain made some honest mistakes. For whatever reason, he seemed to think he had more fuel than he truly did. A fallible human just like us all.
Aviation is unforgiving on all levels of pilotry. We've all made errs in judgement, and sometimes people die as a result. Happens in driving, construction, sea fishing, heck even industrial accidents. The only difference is, with aviation, death is usually more often than not the outcome. An unfortunate, and sobering reality that we can try and avoid death our whole life even though with life, death is the only certainty we have from the moment we're born, but will all be futile in the end.
I’m from Portland and distinctly remember when this happened when I was a boy. It did seem like a miracle that so many survived. I actually flew in or out of town for the holidays just after this and was afraid, but remember my uncle smiling and reassuring me how safe airlines were. When we were in the air I tried to look out the window to see where the plane may have gone down, but there were many clouds and I saw nothing.
Some 30 years later I was working at KOIN, a local TV station and being an airline buff (and related to a pilot), I casually mentioned this in our morning meeting. The news director decided to send a reporter out there that day, and by chance he ran into one of the survivors visiting the area and leaving flowers in a cluster of trees a long block or so from exactly where the plane went down. Even all these years later the mood was pretty somber.
Bless his heart and all those that passed.cpt mcbroom did not crash on purpose .by his suffering you can tell he just got tunnel visioned with the landing gear and making 100% sure passengers where ready..for that alone maybe so many people survived.looks like he even managed to keep the fuselage in 1 piece crash landing between all those trees.sad story
Tell that to the families and loved ones of those who were killed through abject incompetence.
Wow! That was a miracle most survived. RIP those that didn't.
No fuel, no fire.
It could have been worse. Imagine if the plane slammed into the highrise building
On the 707 we have 21k as our fuel needed over a destination, and 18k as min fuel. To hear him say 7k is plenty is mind boggling.
It’s a different aircraft with a different fuel burn. The captain was considering the normal holding fuel required, he didn’t consider how having the gear down would dramatically increase the fuel burn.
I lived down the street from this accident,I was aged 11.I remember the whole night like it was yesterday.
Where are you? I grew up in Damascus..
I was 18 and I lived on 172nd and pine... What an incredible sight that was
I lived on 172 nd and Burnside,you could look down the street and see the tail sticking out of the trees.We used to go and play in the hole created by the nose of the plane when it folded under the plane.
I remember when they pulled the entire fuel panel and brought it to the instrument shop for checks. Was a wierd feeling knowing the guy watching those gauges died in the crash.
All those old analog gauges rolling up and down the whole flight..... memories, gone but not forgotten.
"Why?" Indeed.
Glad to see he salvaged the situation somewhat but damn what an egregious screw up.. (GREAT VIDEO, ALLEC!)
This was especially good. The additional information included about the crew really added to the video.
On this channel I have seen far far worse piloting than Captain McBrooms error in focus. Apart from missing the fuel issue until too late he did prepare the passengers and crew for a harsh landing. No doubt this greatly contributed to the number of survivors. As did his piloting to the ground. Captain McBroom obviously took his job seriously and the crash even more so.
I am a UAL retired Captain. At that time, the PICs were kings and ruled the cockpit, a reminiscent command style from WWII. most were very good, a few set in their ways. As a First officer at the time I flew with a lot of them, they had different quirks. After this accident when they implemented CLRM, some of them fought it,.they thought their command was being usurped, but things got much better because there was real standardization. The crews were enticed to advocate and sound off if there was a deviation or any non standard issue that came up during the flight. I have stories to tell! When I made Captain, no problems, most of them had retired and things were set the right way, accidents came down and thanks to UAL, the company that created Command Leadership Resource Management, sold this program to other airlines and safety prevailed ! Way to go!!!!!
Poor guy. He was way too cautious and despite evidence proving that the gear was down he still needed a 100% yes. His intentions were good but they were costly. Hope he found peace in it all in the end.
From the voice recorder it seems like both the captain and the flight engineer are equally at fault. The captain is screwing around, adding 5 minutes, then another 5, then another 5, then another 5 even though the flight engineer has told him fuel is dangerously low. But at the same time, the flight engineer doesn't ever say "We need to land RIGHT NOW!".
Poor guy he's an idiot
@@Aethelhald I know! I wanted to be there and yell exactly that!
@@donnabaardsen5372 Today that would be said. Before CRM it would never be said. That would have made the flight engineer responsible for whatever happened, and if it were a crash because of gear problems with usable fuel in the tanks it would have been 100% on the FE's head. If it had not ended in a crash the FE would have been reprimanded. There is no winning strategy.
@@Aethelhald different times.. back then the captain was god and everyone else was just there as support. now that mentality is less likely to happen and F/O's can override the captain.
"The right main landing gear retract cylinder assembly had failed due to corrosion, and that allowed the right gear to free fall." Yet another maintenance issue that never should have progressed to the point of mechanical failure.
Yeah there should be nothing left rusty or corroded on a aircraft and regular maintenance schedules are supposed to be frequent enough to catch things like that.
Didn't you know its always the pilot's fault?
@@BillMorganChannel Yep like the Robert Piche scenario where they blamed him for improper crisis situation fuel management. Maintenance had knowingly installed an improper fuel line with inadequate clearance, which no surprise brushed against something and opened up. Someone in the maintenance department didn't like the installation of the incorrect part, but they still did it. Should have never happened.
@@BillMorganChannel So I work on your cars brakes. Afterward driving it you realize something is wrong with the brakes. You keep driving it until you crash badly. No fault on the driver?
@@billg7205 Money talks......
I know it was a cock up but it could've been so much worse. It looks like he put the plane down gently anyway
I was amazed to see the fuselage essentially intact. Luck played a big role but it is still amazing.
How anyone survived that crash, let alone 171 people is stunning to me. Then add the fact that the aircraft stayed so solidly intact upon impact makes the whole situation miraculous, even in light of pilot error.
@@TVHouseHistorian I totally agree with you. It really was a miracle🌈
Boo Spanyer.., It could have been much BETTER IDIOT, everyone could have lived.
@@josephjakubec3171 Yeah, well, thats not how it turned out. It was an accident. Accidents happen, and thus we learn. Improvements have always come from learned mistakes and accidents. Be thankful you live in a time where enough has been learned to feel confident in flight.
What a shame, this has happened with other planes where the crew concentrates on one thing and ignores others. Amazing so many survived.
Right. That plane is not going to fly itself. If it is left to that it's gonna crash. You have to utilize what you have first. It was flyable and they didn't focus on that until other things ate them up.
@@fredc8346 Remember, this was before CRM. This, the Tenerife disaster and some others in the same period were why CRM was invented and implemented.
I remember the media's spin was that the airlines were saving fuel by flying with barely enough fuel to make it. Wrong again.
link?
@@robodabbler The internet wasn't around back then.
i was driveing up burnside street when that hit.i remember helping alot of people off the plane.
I was flying home to Portland on December 28, 1978 with my 1 year old daughter on Continental Airlines after visiting my parents in Florida. When my husband picked me up at the airport, he told me that a plane had just crashed a couple hours before my plane landed. Some of my relatives thought that I had been on United Flight 173. I informed them that I was not on the United Flight but was instead flying on a Continental Flight.
What amazes me is that a Captain with over 27,500 hours of flight time is puzzled when the engines start to quit and asks the FO "WHY"....after he's been dickin' around trying to solve a "probable" issue and now getting himself (and everybody else onboard) in a world of pain because he hasn't considered something which is vital on a plane (FUEL) and now he's finaly got himself (and everybody else onboard) a real problem........and furthermore, still not happy, he declares MAYDAY only when he looses all four engines....wow, amazing.
The only thing I have to give him credit for his having the guts to show up at the 20th Anniversary of the crash without the fear of beeing beaten to death and that takes courage indeed.
McBroom was swept away by guilt.
Oh you merry punster😊
Love these videos man, thank you for uploading during these times and keeping me sane
McBroom confirmed to United Maintenance's query that he was landing five minutes past the hour as a ballpark estimate, so he was at least initially aware of the fuel limit. I was getting concerned when he kept saying that he was landing "in five minutes" seemingly every five minutes, and when the first engine flamed out I was aghast that he'd wonder why, when they were long past the point they should have been on the ground. Too bad Beebe just made a matter of fact reply of "fuel" instead of the soon-to-die Mendenhall giving a smart-ass answer for posterity.
I don't recall, what did Mendenhall say?
@@davef.2811 Mendenhall seemed to be the only guy doing his job.
At approx. 5:39, United Maintenance is called, and McBroom reports that he has 7000 lbs fuel, and confirms that a landing at about five minutes past the hour is "in the ballpark"; that he has about 15 or 20 minutes to get on the ground. So, he was at least aware that he had a limited amount of time to solve the problem and get into approach configuration.
After the call, Beebe asks about fuel, and Mendenhall states 5000, which McBroom acknowledges, so unless the captain was merely repeating words rather than understanding them, he'd know that in the few minutes it took to call San Francisco the fuel status had come to a critical stage, and presumably overriding the concern over the landing gear. I don't know what point of the orbit they in at that moment, but since it would probably take several minutes at least to reach final approach, a prudent pilot would have worked back from five past the hour to where they were, and probably have to make the decision within a few minutes at most to go straight in, gear or no gear.
Mendenhall expresses concern about the fuel pump indicator lights, and McBroom again acknowledges. About 5:50, McBroom turns to the weight, and he apparently thinks that he has another 15 minutes, although it's unclear if he believes that's time to landing or time to decision; Mendenhall says that won't be enough. McBroom has Mendenhall contact United about the situation, and to the latter's question confirms an intention to land at about 6:05.
Presumably a few minutes later, after making the call and completing the checklist, Mendenhall reports that there's only 3000 lbs of fuel remaining; that's a red line that should indicate that the time to work the problem is over and that landing in the next few minutes is imperative.
At 6:01, McBroom still hasn't asked for final, and Mendenhall again reminds him they only have 3(000). Instead of doing things that should have been done five or six minutes earlier, McBroom is still talking about the gear and not about getting down. Approach asks about intentions, and Beebe states an intention to land in five minutes and adds a request for equipment to stand by, so wheels-on-ground would already be past 6:05. To another query from Approach, McBroom tells Beebe that it would be in three-four-five minutes, and I'm guessing it's now at or almost 6:05 already. McBroom evidently believes they still have at least 3000 pounds left, several minutes after Mendenhall reported that level.
McBroom then says to the flight attendant that they would be landing in about five minutes, many minutes at least beyond original intended landing time.
Engine four then flames out, and to my astonishment McBroom at first didn't seem to understand why. Only then does McBroom ask Approach for clearance to land, and I assume that they were at some part of the orbit that it would take several more minutes to line up for final. Mendenhall says that they would lose a second engine in another minute. McBroom still seems to think that they have a thousand pounds. At about 6:12, the second engine goes out, and all good options are gone as well.
@@baraxor I agree. The time element was part of the problem in addition to the gear. This is obvious and was known to the captain. A conservative time to be on final should have been one of the first tasks to accomplish.
When I was little I used to fly on DC8’s to Hawaii from LA. I never knew they were regarded as heavy. I can’t imagine being the captain of a downed aircraft, knowing his actions killed people, surviving it and afterward trying to take his own life. Those kinds of accidents definitely happened in the prior century but had to happen for the knowledge we have now in aviation. Great video Allec!❤️👍✈️
Chip Whitley no, but weight of the aircraft, heavy can be a freight carrier with only 2-3 on board! RIP, CHEERS 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
@Chip Whitley @Chip Whitley Any aircraft with gross takeoff weight of 300,000 lbs or more are considered "heavy." It has nothing to do with passengers being on board or not.
This was a series 61. MTOW 325,000lbs
@Chip Whitley
"Heavy" is used on aircraft that have an MTOW of 300k pounds or more. ATC & pilots use the word "heavy" as a warning to other aircraft flying close behind the "heavy" aircraft of extreme wing vortices, the wake turbulence created by the wing vortices can completely flip a smaller plane upside-down and make it lose control if it gets too close behind a "heavy" aircraft that's the reason ATC and pilots use the word "heavy" it's just so planes flying behind the "heavy" hear the word heavy and know to stay back. Every widebody aircraft is considered "heavy" except the A300, A310. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_(aeronautics)
Aviation Nut thanks for the explanation on heavy. I thought it was all wide bodies.
@@AviationNut Textbook perfect explanation.
It was not solely the fault of the captain. Many things came together to bring the plane down. If anything his landing was fantastic, saving many lives.
YES it was.
Haven't watched this yet and I don't need to.
Another great recreation by Allec Joshua Ibay ❤️
To those here bitching about the captain: Yes, he made a mistake, but there are some things, u should consider b4 launching into the blame game.
First of all, none of us are perfect. All humans are flawed. Most of us are lucky enough, that making a mistake doesnt cost lives. U want the captain charged for manslaughter? Are u perfect? Have u never made a mistake?
Also, this was 1978. There was no CRM at the time, they were not trained for this. The captain didnt focus enough on fuel, he tunnelvisioned elsewhere. The Flight Engineer clearly knew, why didnt he clearly state the situation? Coz he wasnt trained for it. The First Officer voiced concern a couple of times, but he did not insist or overrule his captain. Why? Coz he was not trained for it. This is 1 of the several accidents in that period, that led to CRM being implemented. Never make the mistake of judging based on current standards.
And what about the maintenance issue, that led to the situation in the first place? I dont see any1 blaming the mechanic. The captain should never have been in this situation, coz that failure in maintenance should never have happened. And so on.
There is never 1 reason for a crash. There are always a multitude of reasons, things that by themselves wouldnt cause a crash, but if all things align, they do. Ultimately, the captain is responsible for the aircraft and every1 on board, but clearly, this was not intentional. It was a simple mistake, made in connection with a series of other parts, that together caused this crash, and it is so sad, that ppl died due to something so avoidable. And obviously, the captain never got over it. Nobody blamed him more than himself.
But dont rage about this crash. This may be the most obvious example, except perhaps the Everglades crash a couple of years earlier. But almost all crashes have elements like this in them. Even with CRM and cutting edge training today, these things still happen. Air France 447 is a good example of that, but there are more every year. And as long as we are human, u cannot fully avoid that. Coz all humans make mistakes, no matter how well trained, no matter how experienced, no matter how well intentioned.
I think the idea is to understand the human errors and developed strategies to mitigate them. I’m not sure how aviation safety is improved by saying people make mistakes, get over it.
@@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549 I think, u missed my point. I was reacting to the many harsh comments calling for the prosecution of the captain or his head on a platter. Which is a total overreaction and completely uncalled for. And I specifically mentioned, that CRM was developed due to this and other crashes in that period with the same problems with communication and task distribution. My very point was to stop blaming and instead look at the problems and implement fixes.
U telling me to get over it is irrelevant, I have nothing to get over. I was merely making objective observations in response to ppl ranting and raving and NOT being constructive in improving aviation safety, they were just being meanspirited, hateful and ignorant, not a good combo.
If u find me trying to be objective about facts in the face of raging ppl ignoring the facts and just being plain dumb and vindictive as something I need to "get over", then frankly, u arent improving anything, not aviation safety, not factbased discussion, not civil engagement. Maybe u could use some CRM training. Or maybe u just need to get over urself.
I hope, I managed to burst ur bubble. If not - get over it. I only respond to trolls once.
@@dfuher968 I think you misunderstood my point, I was not specifically telling you to ‘get over it’. As you are aware this crash took place more than 40 years ago so I think that it’s reasonable to discuss this in a dispassionate manner and not take it so personally. I’m not sure who is calling for this captains head on a platter, I haven’t seen that post that you are referring to, but the captain, if he is alive will be well into his 90s by now and probably protected by the statute of limitations.
In discussion of the crash the captains decisions will naturally come under scrutiny and be open to criticism, and the rest of us benefit from the lessons learned. Ultimately this crash has been investigated and discussed by professional aviators and crash investigators and so a few ill informed options on a TH-cam channel are utterly inconsequential.
Been waiting for this one for years
This incident goes to illustrate just how much fuel these big birds use an hour!
A Boeing 777 uses at cruise approx.5.5 tons an hour.Big engines though!
A new post from Allec Joshua Ibay......YEAH!...The work and research he puts into these video really shows....Thanks Allec.
After seeing what happened inside that cockpit for close to an hour, the gear bolt wasn't the only rusty thing that brought down this aircraft.
The thing that scares me with this kind of 'accident' is that we have THREE likely competent experienced professionals and between them this happens? Can't trust much of anything can you.
Alec, thank you for another beautiful video in which we can learn and reflect on. Nice job!
As usual, excellent work Allec. Great follow up on the survivors!
I remember when this happened . There were white tents lined up on Marine DRIVE from 33 RD . up to The Glen Jackson ( 205 Bridge ) you could not access Marine Drive from either end because they had it blocked off during the investigation of the crash, although the crash happened on BURNSIDE not Marine Drive .
Unfortunately in aviation you can only learn from the mistakes and pay with blood, I thank and salute all that fly before us so we can fly safer today
Yeah, it was the captain's fault, all the hours of flight time didn't come in to play except for the landing which must have taken some skill.
"Yeah, it was the captain's fault, all the hours of flight time didn't come in to play except for the landing which must have taken some skill." Well what about that part where he saved the plane from crashing into a million houses?
And I thought I was getting to sleep early... not tonight 😂
Analysis paralysis..? Crew Resource Management (CRM) has likely saved thousands of lives since its implementation. This was an unnecessary, & sad event, but it did accelerate airlines into CRM training, so in that respect, something good came of it.
It's just too bad First & Second officers didn't come up with something along those lines themselves much earlier in the game.
"Crew resource management in the US formally began with a National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) recommendation written by NTSB Air Safety Investigator and aviation psychologist, Dr. Alan Diehl.[3] during his investigation of the 1978 United Airlines Flight 173 crash. The issues surrounding that crash included a DC-8 crew running out of fuel over Portland, Oregon, while troubleshooting a landing gear problem.[4]"
@Allec Joshua Ibay Showing us how it affected the Captain was a nice touch, like most people watching I knew how it ended but recreating the cockpit like this made me so angry at the Captain for surviving when the FE and nine other innocent people all lost their lives that without learning he was tormented by it I'd have forgotten he was human. He clearly wanted the best outcome for everyone, and somehow failed to grasp the severity of their situation. He was on the same plane so I guess he wasn't deliberately taking a risk, he just wanted zero risk of fire if the gear failed and failed to see the danger he put them all it. Seems hard to believe tho, it's just maths. What a thing to have on your conscience.
Great job as always Allec!👍👍
2019 was the 40th anniversary of this crash. Portland media had stories and articles of this crash.
There are trees damaged by this crash still standing to this day. There is a sign or plaque in the area of the crash site. But most of the area is now an apartment complex and houses
What part of town was this? Gresham?
@@owenchristofferson Yeah, the Gresham area. I never rode the bus that far to see the crash site myself.
Google Maps can also be used to view the area.
@@danw2112 It's right off the MAX line.
@@erik_griswold That's right. I've only used the MAX a couple of times to go to Gresham in the last 15 years. And I totally forgot about this crash when I rode through there.
Unfortunately, the captain was subjected to scapegoating by the media.
Judge after You've Heard The Real, "Rest of the Story:"
-Many passengers credited their survival to the captain's extremely skillful Sully-esque
landing, were not angry with him, in fact - gave him a standing ovation at the 1998 Crash Reunion. They saw he was a broken man - and encouraged him to "keep on."
Multiple Miracles
-This crash is known to be one of the most miraculous in the history of aviation.
-He managed to land in a dense residential neighborhood (not a "suburb,") striking only 2
homes, (recently unoccupied,) killed no one on the ground, and threaded the fuselage like a needle through a narrow trail in a thick stand of 100 foot tall Douglas fir trees - at night. The tail hooked power lines - this stopped the craft like the wire on an aircraft carrier. It skidded less than 2,000 feet. The power lines were live - yet nobody was electrocuted.
-The landing was so smooth - fatalities only occurred because two trees were closer-in on the
trail than the others. The cockpit was decapitated by a tree, shoved underneath the plane, crumpled into the size of a dining table - yet the captain stumbled out alive. Those behind the cockpit on the right side - were slain by the tree.
The Gauges
-The captain maintained the gauges were not reading correctly, blinked wildly, and were faulty.
-The abject confusion of the crew, who on the recordings vacillate between hopefulness and anxiety, voicing only occasional, meek, non-confident concerns - partly backs him up.
-The FAA's fuel math was based on factory equipment functioning perfectly - not on test of the
actual equipment on board the cockpit (which now resembled crumpled tinfoil.) (So you blame your motorcycle accident on a faulty brake - yet experts say "the brakes on other motorcycles are fine!" Frustrating.)
-Juries refused to fault the captain during suits, even though United blamed him, and threw him
under the bus. (As did some national media.) If their maintenance was at fault - they would owe millions, both in fines and payouts.
-The FAA report states the captain's distraction was the ultimate cause - but it actually
exonerates him from blame; citing he was tasked with keeping track of too many things at once
for a human to maintain total awareness (radio, troubleshooting, fuel + crew communication.)
-That he needed the rest of the crew to take away a few roles from him - yet that wasn't
procedure at the time.
Spin
-Reports that his cockpit was "tyrannical" or that the crew were "afraid to speak up" are media
spin - the captain was well-liked with the nickname "Buddy." This also slanders the crew - depicting them as cowardly or foolish enough to let a plane crash because of an unwillingness to speak up.
-In reality, they were just as confused about the fuel state as he was.
-Many locals, more plugged into kinder, local coverage - believe the captain was scapegoated -
to distract from United's maintenance negligence, (rust to the point of bolts falling off,) also...
-Negligence in failing to inform the crew the new fuel gauges installed just months before had
a 3% margin of error, up from 1% previously.
-The crash happened only 1-3 minutes flying time from the runway.
-He states later - burning up most
of the fuel was the idea. It's unsafe to throw sparks during a nose-scraping landing with excess fuel on board. Ironically, on the old system, he might have landed with the perfect amount - almost none. There is an argument to be made - that he actually calculated correctly, but was defeated by a greater margin of error unknown to him.
New System
-The role of the new fuel gauges/computer has been downplayed in the saga - but it seems quite
important.
-The fuel gauge numbers were not accurate, ever. Why? 3 digit displays. For each tank. You
read that right!
-Got 3,000 lbs of fuel? It's gonna say "30." You must now do 30x100.
-Yup. Because they didn't spend the money on a few extra digital number slots - They required
math to work it out! Worse, when looking at an individual tank, one must multiply the number by 100. BUT, when looking at the "total" tank, one must multiply it by 1,000. Pretty tragic, if under adrenaline, in an emergency - you maybe get that backwards?
-It gets WORSE! The new computer could only display _100 lbs increments per tank, and 1,000 on
the total gauge._ This is why the captain/crew estimate "3,000 OR 4,000 lbs" - the system can't actually tell them which number is true!
-Accuracy depended also on factors like flaps drag, gear-down drag, + wind. (The direction of which changes constantly in a circular holding pattern.)
-You'd think it'd be "quick and easy" - to tell how much fuel you have left and if you can reach a destination. Oh no.
Still Blame Him?
-To those critical of him; the captain was supposed to do this all in his head, alone, whist
talking on the radio and reading a troubleshooting book, plus flipping switches.
Right!
-The crew did not do their own math, or alert him to their differing results, until 38 minutes after the emergency began. When they did so, they were not confident, and it's easy to see why.
(Allec, there is so much more to this story that should be on the end. I hope you can get
audio from the KOIN interview here, he is muted when he defends himself at the end of your
video. If he can speak, it goes a long way for him having a voice today to defend himself. Love your videos, as always.)
th-cam.com/video/p1spVsTVGAk/w-d-xo.html
This is the best follow-up comment on a TH-cam video ever. Thanks for detailing out the story!
yes he is still to blame. 100% his fault. no excuses. The physical down locks in the wings indicate the gear is safely down. He should have landed then. There would be no one dead.
Naaah.
He forgot THE most basic rule....
FLY THE PLANE. KEEP IT FLYING.
Sorry. He messed up.
A Multnomah County sheriff was escorting a prisoner and had his wrist handcuffed to the prisoners. When it became known there was trouble the sheriff took the cuffs off. Both men were fine after the crash and they helped other passengers. When everybody was out of the plane the prisoner says "I'm going to be taking off now." The sheriff told him not to go, that his behavior in the crash would look good and he should face the court. The guys says "No, I'm leaving." He shook hands with the sheriff and last I heard hasn't been seen since.
I could not even begin to comprehend the guilt he had to live with or the loss and anger the loved ones of those killed must feel
Just wanted to say that you do a really good job with these re-creations. I appreciate your time and effort. Keep up the good work.
Hi Allec! I'm so happy because of you uploading this new video. Keep up, Buddy! :)
My God, was this a rollercoaster ride of the senses to watch. The hairs on my arms and goosebumps are still raised.
Another great piece of history you've done here Allec.
Thank you for another great video. I hope that the Captain forgave himself before he passed away.
ALLEC COMING IN HAWT ...WAKING US UP .KICKING OUR ASSES BUT WE LOVE IT ....THANKS FOR SHARING IN A WAY THAT NOBODY ELSE COULD EVER REPEAT 👍💯⭐💕BEDTIME STORY REAL TALK WITH ALLEC⭐
This is amazing, engineer on board, two pilots and run out of fuel.
This reminds me of Easter Air Flight 401. In that case, a landing gear issue also distracted the crew and they didn’t realize that they were losing altitude, not from any mechanical issue but because they forgot to set the autopilot.
They set the AP but accidently knocked it off. That’s why now u háve a very loud alert when disconnecting AP
I live in New York and this accident brings back memories of Avianca Flt. 52 from Bogota ,Columbia to NY JFK on 25 January 1990. It was a Boeing 707. The aircraft had been put into a holding pattern over the Jersey Coast due to poor visibility at JFK. They burned a substantial amount of fuel while holding . They made an ILS missed approach at JFK. They were aware of the low fuel situation but did not declare an EMERGENCY. Instead of vectoring the aircraft directly back to JFK , Approach Control vectored AV52 back out over Long Island to rejoin the approach course which burned more fuel and used valuable time.The bottom line is they ran out of fuel and crashed. Another tragedy that could have been averted if they had declared an EMERGENCY!
For those blasting Captain Malburn McBroom, yes, he made a egregious mistake. But incompetent? NO. His career was actually stellar, yes he was a hard case that demanded professionalism. The culture of the time was the captain was in command, and he had 2 assistants. A friend of mine who’s still flies for Delta spelled it out how it was back then. He had just gotten out of the Air Force and was hired by a major air line. The captains in those days would came strolling in at the last minute and plop down, putting tremendous pressure on the FO and FE to getting start checklists completed and the plane configured, just because the captain could. It’s not that way anymore, thank goodness.
bs
@@atholmackie668 Agreed BS
Nope, absolute truth.
Thanks for making these videos and thanks for focusing on all accidents and not just the mainstream stuff, that's actually really important and interesting.
I really enjoy how you wrap up your videos by including personal stories about the protagonists.
I felt bad for captain. After the accident his life was destroyed, he retired because of his error,marriage issues, etc and he got cancer. He met the survivors of the accident during anniversary and they recalled him as broken man, they respected him before he died.
I remember this well as I was 14 years old and living in Seattle. It's amazing so many did survive this crash.
Good video, keep it up allec
Just found your channel, and subbed. I'm about to binge on the rest of your videos.
This one was excellent!
Excellent compilation, thank you Mr. Ibay.
I've been waiting thanks
5000 lbs... about 750 gallons, in 15 minutes hold. That's one thirsty baby.
Jim Davies The -61 burned about 16000#/hour. The -71, with CFM engines burned 12000#/hour. Great airplane, but old technology these days.
Don’t forget the landing gear was down all the time during circling. The drag of the lowered landing gear nearly doubles the fuel flow which the captain maybe did not have in mind.
@escaped to Vancouver Actually, if you fly low, the fuel burn is the same as at altitude until you are very light, but your speed is less. At least that was the case in the DC-8.
Another fantastic video, Allec
When i die, i wanna die like my grandpa in his sleep, not like the passengers screaming and shouting in his car.......
Ha!
Nick Thomas i think it was Jack Dee
I love it.
My grandpa also died in his sleep. Also, I like your joke.
Terrific video Allec, as always. The Capt worried about something that *could* be a problem & avoided the 1 thing that was the *actual* problem. A lesson learned by all of us at some point but not always with such catastrophic consequences.
Well done as always.
I flew the DC-8 and 8000#'s of fuel was considered emergency fuel. The manual landing gear pegs over the wing that were observed from the cabin window, confirmed the gear was down. The flight engineer had manual fuel control levers, that looked like beer handles. I assume all cross feed values were open to allow any fuel from any tank to feed any engine. Eastern had a similar accident with a landing gear light over the Everglades at about the same time.
These accidents led to every major airline to include Command Leadership Resource (Human Factors) during recurrent training. If gave permission for any cockpit crew member to challenges the pilot in command by using the acronym CUS. If you say I am concerned, uncomfortable of I believe it unsafe, you can challenge the captain and talk about in on the ground and it was your duty to have a no CUS flight operation.
Dave Witter :
I have watched the accounts of this accident on other channels also. It is such a shame that the captain continued with diagnosis after the wing indicators were checked and found to be OK. All that being said, we are all human, and subject to mistakes and tunnel vision. The other crewmembers tried to advise the captain about the fuel, he just wasn't hearing their warnings. All that being said, it looks as though the captain did a pretty good job of landing the plane in the woods and keeping most of the plane together. The captain was plagued with survivor's guilt for the rest of his life, and I'm sure most of his illness' were a direct result of depression, stress, and guilt. I can totally understand his desire to end his life. I give captain McBroom so much credit for being man enough to attend the reunion and face the families of those who died in the crash.
Being a flight attendant, I am so relieved when I fly with a cockpit crew that gets along and is comfortable with each other, two heads are definitely better than one. I have only been involved in one emergency, and am forever grateful to that cockpit crew, they only had a split second to recognize/diagnose the problem, then take corrective action. I get very nervous when I fly with unfamiliar cockpit crew, especially if the captain appears to be a "one man band".
A passenger on this flight was in handcuffs in the custody of two Marshall’s who removed the handcuffs as the cabin crew was prepping the cabin for an emergency landing. After the crash the prisoner spent hours in and around the wreck removing injured passengers and getting them to ambulances. Everyone who observed him spoke glowingly of his actions. But at the end of the evening he was gone. Years later he appeared in front of a judge who when he heard of the prisoners conduct on the night of the crash dismissed the charges. On the descent with no power the plane went through some power lines according to some reports that acted as arresting gear which slowed the plane down. During the cabin prep prior to the crash the flight attendants separated a toddler from their parents with a sad result. This led to changes in how families are handled in emergency circumstances. I can’t confirm this directly at the time, but I heard that Captain Buddy McBroom had been involved as a first officer in the 1960’s with a DC-8 fire on landing in Denver that may have obsessed him with landing with minimal fuel on board.
interesting
This is interesting, as the Captain made a comment to the Engineer about making sure if the gear failed on landing to "make sure to get those fuel boost pumps off". This could have been an issue in the fire he previously experienced, and was weighing on him heavily when this situation occurred.
I like how you design the planes based on the actual year
This was an especially good one. Thanks.
I absolutely love Your channel. Carry on making these great videos. You're a star...
I flew DC-8's for many years as a Captain. I always wanted to be looking at having 10k on the fuel entering the terminal area. If I was in a hold trying to figure out a gear problem and my engineer told me we have 5k of fuel remaining I'm turning to the airport. We all learn from these accidents and unfortunately people died from the Captain's mistakes.
As did I. The last 4,000 lbs or 1,000 per engine was maybe there and maybe not. You needed to be on the ground when the gauges hit 8,000 lbs. If you hadn't landed yet, you would be soon.
Coming: External cameras on landing gear, engines and tail assembly.🎬📸📷 ( None too soon!)
In retrospect, had McBroom landed the plane on the runway despite the question over the gear, had the gear actually folded, the plane & everyone in it would more than likely have been fine, just a shower of sparks.