I suffered a stroke in 2022, and now have Aphasia (due to the brain injury)because of it. One of the things I learned early on was when I couldn't say a word, if I put it in a song, I could say it. This was how I was able to say my wife's name in the beginning. I would sing the birthday song to get her name to come out of my mouth, and it meant the world to her. You can’t convince me that there is not real magic in music, even something so silly as the birthday song. I also like her take on the bard as opposed to the tired trope of horny bard who want to sleep with everything.
Agreed. I like how they're upset about song doing things in combat, instead of realistic, grounded things like shooting a fireball from your hands after reading a book.
The honesty is a breath of fresh air, both hearing the Network dish grievances with each other, AND hearing Joe, Skid and Troy give voice to something A LOT of people in the hobby kind of just have to grit their teeth about with a certain class.
RE: Bards as fiction breaking: The magical power of music has history going back nearly as far as fantastical story and myth itself. Ancient Greek mythology is full of examples of people who would fit in our modern concept as bards - Orpheus is one example, but this wasn't limited to the Greeks. The principle character in Finland's classic collection of folklore, the Kalevala is a singer. Written in the 1800s that character, Väinämöinen was described as 'the eternal bard'. The Irish had Dagda's harp which controlled the weather, instilled courage before battle, and healed their wounds afterwards. But this history wasn't restricted to Europe! In ancient Taoist mythology, specific songs were credited with the ability to dispel illusion or ward off evil spirits. Throughout military history, even up to modern times, music has been used both to instill courage in one's own forces while striking fear into the hearts of your enemies. This is backed up in popular fiction as well. Remember the "Ride of the Valkyries" scene in Apocalypse Now? In Tolkein's Lord of the Rings, the songs of elves are repeatedly portrayed as having magical effects, and in the Silmarillion, Iluvatar - the supreme - literally creates Middle Earth as an manifestation of a song. The entire story of Lord of the Rings and the entire stretch of time from its beginning to its uttermost end is explicitly an object lesson for Morgoth and the other Maiar who tried to subvert Ilvatar's theme to give their own part of the chorus Iluvatar was conducting more prominence. Throughout Tolkein's works, the importance and power of songs is constantly reinforced. The examples are bottomless that bards and bardic magic are at least as true to the fiction that fantasy is built on than wizards and clerics. The fact that you feel silly about singing and music has nothing to do with the fiction.
Somebody explain to Joe and Troy that bards use songs to cast magic. It’s not the words causing physical damage, it’s the magic. It’s like saying “wizards are so ridiculous, how on earth does waving your hands around make a fireball appear”.
Reading the Silmarillion and learning that the LotR universe was sung into existence by Eru with the Ainu offering harmonies to help, and the original evil being Melkor singing in discordance really changed my view on bards
The parody songs are like "A Knight's Tale", the crowd isn't *actually* doing We Will Rock You, and David Bowie's Golden Years isn't the song they were playing at the dance, but they *evoke the feelings* that those songs do to modern audiences.
My argument in favor of Bard casting : somehow we accept that wizards do great magic saying unknown words and doing silly hand gestures... so Bards are really doing the same thing but with different words (maybe understandable ones).
To me it's not that bards' music is the magic, it's that they channel their magic through their music (or other performances) Also, Joe has literally played a bard on this network haha
You can also ask the gods to directly intervene with miracles, or you have sorcerers who can cast magic just 'cause. But MUSIC CASTING? In my Fantasy RPG?
A bard must be able to create harmonies by resonating with the warp and weave of the universe. I have always assumed that damage is caused by deliberately creating discords or perhaps minor chords.
So I played a bard back in 3e D&D from 1st to 30th, and it honestly gels well with the game. Something to consider is that music/performance and war has always gone hand in hand. Drummer boys, skalds, trumpeters, even now you see soldiers listening to music to pump them up. Who doesn't think music helps a fight in a video game even? Bards have been part of fighting for as long as we've been making instruments
"Here's a setting where magical lizards fly through the air and you can ask the gods to directly intervene" "I want to sing to rally my teammates-" "WHOA THERE BUDDY! You're breaking my immersion!"
Ah man, no one talked about how Tolkien the Bard class is. Not what it has become, but it's origins. The traveler, gathering lore and understanding history through multiple cultures (hence Legend Lore and extra Languages) using ancient songs and tales to inspire, teach, and awaken the ancient magic that created everything. Very Tolkien, true bards are not the clowns the class has become
Especially from the player, who plays an illusionist in another game, and basically uses holograms to deal damage. Also if we're going with GoT as to what should be in a Pathfinder party, those wizards, clerics, pretty much anyone who casts magic shouldn't be there.
Right. It's also not that strange. I think it shows a lack of imagination on their parts. There isn't just one type of magic in all of fantasy. I imagine Bards tapping into a power like True Naming or the magic of Words of Power. More "classical" casters use material, somatic and verbal components. They invoke magic through esoteric incantations and gestures. Bards using music is just a more literal interpretation of that. The issue is that most players playing casters don't roleplay their invocations or hand gestures out loud, while bard players often do. If everyone was forced to perform their spell components Bards would seem a lot less silly.
Lil green dude with split personalities that lets him make fire and ice with his mind? Great! Guy who prays you back to health? Fine! Lady whose mastery of the body lets her manipulate life energy? Of course! Guy who can hit harder because he has a bag of odds-and-ends that convince you he can? Perfect! Short girl who sings magic? NO, MY SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF, COME BACK! Seriously, I hope they tone it down in the remaining episodes.
I mean, My Little Pony is magic too, but it's still wildly out of place in many magical settings. Also, it's completely subjective so arguing how wrong or right they are is pedantic and pointless, no?
And he never helps in combat, he's more like a delta green high lvl bond that keeps Geralt sane than a pathfinder party member that actually helps with every challenge.
The title being a reference to the Guards! Guards! discworld novel i guess we are going to try something that is a million to one but it just might work
Skid isn't kidding around about the old bards. 1st AD&D bard can only be a human or half-elf and needed to have strength, dexterity, charisma, and wisdom of 15 or better, plus a minimum 12 intelligence and 10 constitution. You had to start as a fighter and switch class to thief after 5th level, but before 8th. You then had to switch from thief after 5th but before 9th to "druid", but at this point they start leveling as a bard. "Difficult to qualify" is putting it pretty mildly.
The fact that Joe thinks bards suck when they're widely regarded as the hands down strongest support class is pretty funny. Maybe Syd shouldn't worry about the opinion of the guy whose monk didn't survive one round of combat.
No no, he says they don't make sense and are out of place in combat not that they're not good. I think to play a bard you have to make it good and appropriate, not just a random guy playing a guitar and being witty (the stereotype). It could be a flute player that enchants animals or enemies (to me this is one of the most fitting bards you can have!).
100%. For me it's the best combat they've had and in no small part due to better encounter design (multiple PL-2 enemies and no one shot murder machine PL+2/3 boss in sight)
I played a bard to 23rd level (the max) in AD&D, but really that was just for the challenge of it. In AD&D as Skid said, they were optional, and essentially were a multiclass of Fighter/Thief/Druid. They appeared first in the Strategic Review (magazine predecessor to Dragon), but as Skid said they first appear in the appendix of the first PHB.
I am sorry, but as a Bard class hater I have to admit and state that Sydney's bard character is amazing 😂 I think we have to look it more like a wizard that sings, that's basically it and it's great how she interprets it! 😅 Also she's good at singing so.. that's a plus! To me one of the most fitting kind of bard would be like a flute player enchanting the enemies in combat, like the guy from the tale!
The concept of battle medicine as an activity between each fight is so ludicrous. Quickly, time is of the essence, we just captured the enemies who could attempt an escape at any moment. Let's just sit here for several hours in the meantime...
A Druid using magic to turn into an Animal…no problem. A barbarian using his anger to become resistant to all kinds of damage. No problem. A Bard using magic to make there music do damage….nope
I'm going to keep shouting this until it gets to the table: When you succeed on Recall Knowledge, ask for their lowest saving throw! It is the most universally useful piece of information and they never ask for it. For example, the Charlatan enemy here has a terrible Fort save and actually just got very lucky when they rolled 23 against Gick's Void Warp. With this information, they would know that Gick and Buggles should focus on targetting her with their Fort save spells, and that Barnes and Zephyr can easily succeed on a Grapple to impose off-guard and a flat check for casting most spells, as well as a decent chance of Restraining them, which prevents any actions other than Escape attempts.
That whole intro just felt like "old white guys hate change and fun" Bard is one of the dopest classes I hope Sydney beats every boss with a song and a quip
@trancebodega2739 white men have been known to hold possession over the "right way" to enjoy or play many aspects of nerdy media. Telling new comer especially women and POCs that they way they enjoy something is essentially wrong because that things has traditionally been a "white guy" thing. We've been calling this gatekeeping for years now but it's just basic resistance to cultural shifts. So the reason cultural identity factors in to it is because it was literally a but of old white guys saying the they liked what better before the new thing that others like was added. Nothing wrong with being white or hating bards but this intro felt very gatekeepy
This anti-bard stuff feels real 2002, I thought we were all past this. Psychics in tabletop fantasy are weird. The thaumaturge is wonderfully weird. The way Joe chooses to play a cleric, focusing on healing in combat like a WoW priest, is *weird.* I don't understand why Syd is the only person who's gotta waste breath defending her class choice.
@@trancebodega2739 Nah, that argument doesn't fly. Hubert Hedge and Brother Toke-Circle were breaking tone long before now. Interesting that you're willing to issue a pass to them and not to Sydney.
Music being magical and inspirational just doesn’t seem like a stretch to me. War drums were used in actual warfare. A cleric’s healing beams? Not so much.
Sydney can you please perform a song in Gnomish for us? Just what ever random sou ds and noises you can make. Bonus points if you can make Joe twitch or tremble on camera for us. ❤ Gick, always remember feared 3 and fleeing.
The bard hate bit already feels old and overused (almost annoying already), so I hope it stops at some point. Bards are not the only weird spellcasting class or feature. My problem is the Scanlan epidemic: Almost any bard feels like that stupid constantly seducing, always joking, etc. clichee. Thorne on Legacy, Leliana in Dragon Age Origins, etc. - there are good examples of cool bards.
Yeah, played a Bard in 1E AD&D, as well as 2E and 5E D&D. They're very effective in what they do. But it seems the "in combat" thing still confuses Joe. Okay. Try this. Imagine Theoden as a Valor/Sword Bard. Now his speech before the charge of the Rohirrim becomes a spell. Consider the historical references in multiple cultures (eg. Scotland, Norway, India, etc) of warrior poets. They who inspired then lead forces into battle. Try remembering the old Zulu movie (Michael Cain), before the final charge of the Zulu at Rorkes Drift. That's completely a battle between rival bards. Lastly, since Joe has clearly never been to a Metal concert, the power of performance to drive a crowd into a frenzy, then bring them back down, really needs to be experienced. Bards are more than just singing. The right speech. A haka. The haunting wail of bagpipes in combat. Be open to possibility.
Whatever you think of Bards, Troy and Joe apparently allowed her to make and play the character. They then proceeded to bash Sydney for a majority of the banter is just BS. Sydney is a better person than me is what i learned.
It's hilarious and kinda sad how personally people are taking the guys bagging on bards. They're having fun, chill tf out Naish. Your subjective opinions on bards are no better than theirs.
Bards in d&d are basically the Skalds from Norse tradition : literate people that are fighters too, so skillfull in many things that they were crown/nobles councillors. And power through music/words to inspire allies and inspire fear in enemies probably from historical figures of Scottish drummers/bagpipes musicians (they were even a thing during the battle in Normandy in ww2)
Still watching these grown people talk about not singing a song in a role playing game jesus christ. I hope she sings a fuckin musical for the next 10 episodes.
The Naish Vegas meet promo makes me uncomfortable, because i'm pretty sure this is the first reveal we've seen Kate's ear and I feel like I need to apologize to her for it. I feel like we just read her diary or something.
The constant ragging on Syd and Bards kind of soured the episode. Bards have been in fiction for a long time. I get that you might not want current pop songs but how is a song doing damage any more game breaking than wiggling fingers and a word causing damage?
52:52 There are no components anymore. The only thing that matters is whether a spell has the Manipulate trait or not. You still have to be able to speak though.
This whole bard/syd bashing feels like "oh you like this, name ten whatevers". A bunch of old white dudes telling a younger woman how to play the game to their standard, or as you may otherwise know it, "the right way".
If I was about to be in a fight and Led Zeppelin started playing Immigrant Song right behind me, my chances of winning that fight increases ten fold. Just saying.
My idea for bard is they know how to weave sound waves to create concentrated spikes and dips that cause effects. Like rubbing your finger on a wine glass at the right speed and pressure to create resonance, the bard sees the harmonic fabric of the world and manipulates it. Actually makes more sense than "I'm a wizard and I have a bird feather and know how to flap my hands and say stuff therefore i cast fly"
You needed to have levels of fighter, thief, and Druid to qualify as a Bard in the old days, and you needed a 15 in FOUR different stats. It was indeed SUPER hard to qualify for but they were very, very powerful if you ever actually came across one.
OG bards were incredibly hard to make needing 15+ in something like 4 abilities and then having to level up in several classes before actually becoming a bard. Dope AF but almost impossible to make.
I like how the ep starts with bard bashing HOWEVER Flash mobs exist, so busting out into song and dance in public spontaneously is a thing that happens outside of musicals.
53:43 Interesting how nobody seemed to care that Skid made his Flat Check AFTER the Frostbite roll. Edit: Not an "attack" roll, but also not the point.
@@0282097 incorrect, the contention has always been about the order of rolling the flat check when there is an attack roll, because some at the table were arguing they intended their first roll to be the attack roll while others were arguing that RAW the flat check is always first. When you roll the flat check for a saving throw spell it doesn’t matter at all when you roll it as long as you remember to do it, because there’s nothing else that roll can be, and has never been a point of argument on this show.
I feel your pain Joe, I absolutely hate the Bard character class, specifically how pop culture latched onto that class and made them sex hounds that are super annoying. It was the reason why I hated The Witcher and couldn't get in Vox (beside all the characters being tropes and cliches). I know I'm going to get downvoted to hell for this opinion but that's just how I feel.
Just thinking another dull week was about to end, and along come you guys to fill the world with sunshine! Ever since covid times so please please keep going forever!
When Skid was talking about AD&D Bards, it would have been so awesome to play Nerdage again. It’s been so long since that dropped played. This was a great ep!! Happy New Year guys. I hope this year starts off well for you all.
Bards are cool. You’re a hater this time Joe. I do think it’s more fun to play them as a mystic or spellcaster who happens to use song as their casting. It’s totally normal to imagine Gandalf humming or chanting something as casting. I feel like you’re really fixating on how other people react to the bard as a singer, as if he was a normal singer who got bitten by a radioactive singer and became a magic singer. Bro, it’s just a mage with song-magic. The Hound doesn’t bring Ed Sheeran to the battle but he could easily bring a man with a magical flute, or a wizard who knows a healing song, or anysuch. There’s a weird performer/bard conflation in the newer additions I agree is silly, but i think the concept is sound.
So the god of books letting you heal is fine, but someone channeling magic through music is game-breaking? Musical magic has long had a place in mythology.
Imagining the effect of 'laughing fit' as feeling as if you're being tickled against your will and can't get away - that is horrifying. Abyone who's been in a similar situation knows how bad it is. I only played a bard in BG2 (so a variation upon 3.5 rules), and they were great. High damage output, and with all the magical armour and spell resistances they could cast, the bard did great on the very front lines of any fight. The class felt like a streamlined fighter/mage/a bit of rogue.
OK, just starting the ep, and wondering why everyone is wearing black except Skid. I mean, I know that I've heard that the series is endin.Did they know before this episode that they were going to end it on this episode.
The miles of the day and all that ye slay and all that lines up ta kills ya will all fade away so down all ye lay and listen while ol' Welby heals ya My latest character's (class randomly selected, I hate bards too) Song of Healing (5e but still applies). The ONLY way to make it cool is to write your own songs.
I know it's easy to pile on Sydney and I'm usually all for it, but really with the bard slander? Y'all, if you wanted an optimized party with the requisite RPG triumvirate (DPS / Tank / Healer) then you wouldn't have started the campaign by expressly limiting PC coordination and obfuscating classes and ancestries. I LOVED the separate Session Zero videos. But guys... you chose this life. Your party is a ramshackle bunch of mismatched weirdos plagued by bad dice rolls and a stubborn GM. You Chose This Life. Anyway, praise log, GCN Forever
I rarely single out one player in a comment, but dammit Sydney, leave the bards for players with less dignity and self awareness...like in Legacy (lol sorry Nick). Seriously though, she will be fine in a week or two. Once Sydney starts to settle into the character
I hope you guys know how blessed you are to have an old grognard like Skid that knows the history and lore of the OG games 👍
I suffered a stroke in 2022, and now have Aphasia (due to the brain injury)because of it. One of the things I learned early on was when I couldn't say a word, if I put it in a song, I could say it. This was how I was able to say my wife's name in the beginning. I would sing the birthday song to get her name to come out of my mouth, and it meant the world to her. You can’t convince me that there is not real magic in music, even something so silly as the birthday song.
I also like her take on the bard as opposed to the tired trope of horny bard who want to sleep with everything.
Joe's little dance to the "Basketball" drop showed me he has more rhythm than I ever expected him to have.
The Sydney pile on about bards was a shitty thing to do. She has thicker skin than me, for enduring all that and still putting in a good show.
Agreed. I like how they're upset about song doing things in combat, instead of realistic, grounded things like shooting a fireball from your hands after reading a book.
I never liked bards and still don't like them, but Sydney's is a well made bard that makes sense 😅
The honesty is a breath of fresh air, both hearing the Network dish grievances with each other, AND hearing Joe, Skid and Troy give voice to something A LOT of people in the hobby kind of just have to grit their teeth about with a certain class.
Maybe Joe should just treat bards as like his wizard Atticus Grimm. A caster performer.
RE: Bards as fiction breaking: The magical power of music has history going back nearly as far as fantastical story and myth itself. Ancient Greek mythology is full of examples of people who would fit in our modern concept as bards - Orpheus is one example, but this wasn't limited to the Greeks. The principle character in Finland's classic collection of folklore, the Kalevala is a singer. Written in the 1800s that character, Väinämöinen was described as 'the eternal bard'. The Irish had Dagda's harp which controlled the weather, instilled courage before battle, and healed their wounds afterwards. But this history wasn't restricted to Europe! In ancient Taoist mythology, specific songs were credited with the ability to dispel illusion or ward off evil spirits.
Throughout military history, even up to modern times, music has been used both to instill courage in one's own forces while striking fear into the hearts of your enemies. This is backed up in popular fiction as well. Remember the "Ride of the Valkyries" scene in Apocalypse Now?
In Tolkein's Lord of the Rings, the songs of elves are repeatedly portrayed as having magical effects, and in the Silmarillion, Iluvatar - the supreme - literally creates Middle Earth as an manifestation of a song. The entire story of Lord of the Rings and the entire stretch of time from its beginning to its uttermost end is explicitly an object lesson for Morgoth and the other Maiar who tried to subvert Ilvatar's theme to give their own part of the chorus Iluvatar was conducting more prominence. Throughout Tolkein's works, the importance and power of songs is constantly reinforced.
The examples are bottomless that bards and bardic magic are at least as true to the fiction that fantasy is built on than wizards and clerics. The fact that you feel silly about singing and music has nothing to do with the fiction.
I mean, _Merlin_ was a bard. _Merlin_ .
100%
If you can cast magic by speaking and waving your hands, you can certainly cast it by using music.
I’m “Bottle cap-ing” skid for remembering that he has an onyx dog and using it for such a perfect reason
Matter of fact I’m bottle capping Matthew too for his crafty back door maneuver
Somebody explain to Joe and Troy that bards use songs to cast magic. It’s not the words causing physical damage, it’s the magic. It’s like saying “wizards are so ridiculous, how on earth does waving your hands around make a fireball appear”.
Syd’s credit in the opening bant still saying ‘Asta’ while talking about making an in memoriam for her made me chuckle.
Reading the Silmarillion and learning that the LotR universe was sung into existence by Eru with the Ainu offering harmonies to help, and the original evil being Melkor singing in discordance really changed my view on bards
It flabbergasts me that people can say bards feel out of place in DnD fantasy, after playing monks and gunslingers....
The parody songs are like "A Knight's Tale", the crowd isn't *actually* doing We Will Rock You, and David Bowie's Golden Years isn't the song they were playing at the dance, but they *evoke the feelings* that those songs do to modern audiences.
My argument in favor of Bard casting : somehow we accept that wizards do great magic saying unknown words and doing silly hand gestures... so Bards are really doing the same thing but with different words (maybe understandable ones).
To me it's not that bards' music is the magic, it's that they channel their magic through their music (or other performances)
Also, Joe has literally played a bard on this network haha
You can also ask the gods to directly intervene with miracles, or you have sorcerers who can cast magic just 'cause.
But MUSIC CASTING? In my Fantasy RPG?
Think about the musical assassins from Kung Fu Hustle
A bard must be able to create harmonies by resonating with the warp and weave of the universe. I have always assumed that damage is caused by deliberately creating discords or perhaps minor chords.
Love the "Gik Muk" drop!
The city might be under a few realm effect from Tasha's cauldron of everything. Specifically 64-72 effect
So I played a bard back in 3e D&D from 1st to 30th, and it honestly gels well with the game.
Something to consider is that music/performance and war has always gone hand in hand. Drummer boys, skalds, trumpeters, even now you see soldiers listening to music to pump them up. Who doesn't think music helps a fight in a video game even? Bards have been part of fighting for as long as we've been making instruments
"Here's a setting where magical lizards fly through the air and you can ask the gods to directly intervene"
"I want to sing to rally my teammates-"
"WHOA THERE BUDDY! You're breaking my immersion!"
THIS. A discussion about believability in a fantasy setting is wild to me.
Ah man, no one talked about how Tolkien the Bard class is. Not what it has become, but it's origins. The traveler, gathering lore and understanding history through multiple cultures (hence Legend Lore and extra Languages) using ancient songs and tales to inspire, teach, and awaken the ancient magic that created everything. Very Tolkien, true bards are not the clowns the class has become
@@AzureMillenuim exactly. but players typically dont play the class this way - they go the epic marvel oneliner route
GCP bard slander is outta control
Nick Lowe is a national treasure and deserves more respect.
Especially from the player, who plays an illusionist in another game, and basically uses holograms to deal damage. Also if we're going with GoT as to what should be in a Pathfinder party, those wizards, clerics, pretty much anyone who casts magic shouldn't be there.
The subreddit was pretty mad about the banter this ep but upon actually listening it seems fine and everyone is in on it
It’s fucking magic in a magical world, Joe!
Right. It's also not that strange. I think it shows a lack of imagination on their parts. There isn't just one type of magic in all of fantasy.
I imagine Bards tapping into a power like True Naming or the magic of Words of Power.
More "classical" casters use material, somatic and verbal components. They invoke magic through esoteric incantations and gestures. Bards using music is just a more literal interpretation of that.
The issue is that most players playing casters don't roleplay their invocations or hand gestures out loud, while bard players often do. If everyone was forced to perform their spell components Bards would seem a lot less silly.
Lil green dude with split personalities that lets him make fire and ice with his mind? Great!
Guy who prays you back to health? Fine!
Lady whose mastery of the body lets her manipulate life energy? Of course!
Guy who can hit harder because he has a bag of odds-and-ends that convince you he can? Perfect!
Short girl who sings magic? NO, MY SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF, COME BACK!
Seriously, I hope they tone it down in the remaining episodes.
@@B-019 me too. It makes them seem like real dummies.
it's not Syd's fault that Paizo included the Bard class in PF2. Constantly making her feel bad for a rule that's part of the game is a d!&k move.
I mean, My Little Pony is magic too, but it's still wildly out of place in many magical settings.
Also, it's completely subjective so arguing how wrong or right they are is pedantic and pointless, no?
I move that the Harlem Globetrotters be recognized as irl bards.
“Lot of sap” genius 😂
You literally see a bard accompany the Witcher though, his companion is a bard. Arguably Gabriel from Xena is also a bard.
And he never helps in combat, he's more like a delta green high lvl bond that keeps Geralt sane than a pathfinder party member that actually helps with every challenge.
The title being a reference to the Guards! Guards! discworld novel i guess we are going to try something that is a million to one but it just might work
A million to one, works every time.
Man, this reference has me craving a GlassCannon run of Agents of Edgewatch. It's an urban campaign that would fit right in with this crew.
Isn’t there a Disk World RPG that was released recently?
@@Tornakin-98 kickstarter that finished with a playtest but yes yes there is a new discworld rpg but there are 1 or 2 older ones as well
Skid isn't kidding around about the old bards. 1st AD&D bard can only be a human or half-elf and needed to have strength, dexterity, charisma, and wisdom of 15 or better, plus a minimum 12 intelligence and 10 constitution. You had to start as a fighter and switch class to thief after 5th level, but before 8th. You then had to switch from thief after 5th but before 9th to "druid", but at this point they start leveling as a bard. "Difficult to qualify" is putting it pretty mildly.
I hope they exceptionally did not have to use the Dual Class rules :P (which were horrible!)
All this Bard bashing. Bards have always been my favorite class. I like the 2e Bard. You go Syd!
The fact that Joe thinks bards suck when they're widely regarded as the hands down strongest support class is pretty funny. Maybe Syd shouldn't worry about the opinion of the guy whose monk didn't survive one round of combat.
Everyone disses the bard until the buffs start stacking up and suddenly their character is so much better. ;)
Bards can be incredibly useful and completely ridiculous at the same time.
But his view isn’t that they suck, his view is that they don’t make sense.
No no, he says they don't make sense and are out of place in combat not that they're not good. I think to play a bard you have to make it good and appropriate, not just a random guy playing a guitar and being witty (the stereotype). It could be a flute player that enchants animals or enemies (to me this is one of the most fitting bards you can have!).
this was a really enjoyable combat, it was super tactical and PCs are synergizing their abilities
100%. For me it's the best combat they've had and in no small part due to better encounter design (multiple PL-2 enemies and no one shot murder machine PL+2/3 boss in sight)
I just realized that Hubert is just Austin Powers
Does Sydney have an appointment breaking into the Gotham Museum of Fine Art after this episode?
I played a bard to 23rd level (the max) in AD&D, but really that was just for the challenge of it. In AD&D as Skid said, they were optional, and essentially were a multiclass of Fighter/Thief/Druid.
They appeared first in the Strategic Review (magazine predecessor to Dragon), but as Skid said they first appear in the appendix of the first PHB.
I am sorry, but as a Bard class hater I have to admit and state that Sydney's bard character is amazing 😂
I think we have to look it more like a wizard that sings, that's basically it and it's great how she interprets it! 😅
Also she's good at singing so.. that's a plus!
To me one of the most fitting kind of bard would be like a flute player enchanting the enemies in combat, like the guy from the tale!
gonna miss the healing RP with ramius and the gang
Ed Sheeran was a bard in Game of Thrones in a scene
15:36
I think Joe is just jealous that he didn’t choose a bard instead of his crappy cleric.
😂 Chill tf out. They're having fun ffs
@@jasondavies7000 language!
The concept of battle medicine as an activity between each fight is so ludicrous.
Quickly, time is of the essence, we just captured the enemies who could attempt an escape at any moment. Let's just sit here for several hours in the meantime...
Bard is still my #1 class. It's fun and effective and maybe a bit silly, but hey, that's what I'm after in the game!
styling bards as bene gesserit is a cool flavor idea
9:25 Everything makes me think of Harry T...
HARRY T, THE BARD: Check out this sick jam.
Syds nameplate thing saying Asta as she's talking about her dead characters is either a nice touch or a wonderful oversight
A Druid using magic to turn into an Animal…no problem. A barbarian using his anger to become resistant to all kinds of damage. No problem. A Bard using magic to make there music do damage….nope
I'm going to keep shouting this until it gets to the table: When you succeed on Recall Knowledge, ask for their lowest saving throw! It is the most universally useful piece of information and they never ask for it.
For example, the Charlatan enemy here has a terrible Fort save and actually just got very lucky when they rolled 23 against Gick's Void Warp. With this information, they would know that Gick and Buggles should focus on targetting her with their Fort save spells, and that Barnes and Zephyr can easily succeed on a Grapple to impose off-guard and a flat check for casting most spells, as well as a decent chance of Restraining them, which prevents any actions other than Escape attempts.
Merry Christmas and happy New Years
Skid should have used the pocket dog against that cat that killed Sydney’s character.
That whole intro just felt like "old white guys hate change and fun" Bard is one of the dopest classes I hope Sydney beats every boss with a song and a quip
Cultural identity factors into this how?
@trancebodega2739 white men have been known to hold possession over the "right way" to enjoy or play many aspects of nerdy media. Telling new comer especially women and POCs that they way they enjoy something is essentially wrong because that things has traditionally been a "white guy" thing. We've been calling this gatekeeping for years now but it's just basic resistance to cultural shifts. So the reason cultural identity factors in to it is because it was literally a but of old white guys saying the they liked what better before the new thing that others like was added. Nothing wrong with being white or hating bards but this intro felt very gatekeepy
This anti-bard stuff feels real 2002, I thought we were all past this. Psychics in tabletop fantasy are weird. The thaumaturge is wonderfully weird. The way Joe chooses to play a cleric, focusing on healing in combat like a WoW priest, is *weird.* I don't understand why Syd is the only person who's gotta waste breath defending her class choice.
Agreed, it’s getting real old real fast
Agreed, real old real fast.
@@Aibheaog old and fast 2: aged and speedy
It's not about credulity in the game world. It's a tone shift in overall culture of the hobby and it makes a lot of us cringe.
@@trancebodega2739 Nah, that argument doesn't fly. Hubert Hedge and Brother Toke-Circle were breaking tone long before now. Interesting that you're willing to issue a pass to them and not to Sydney.
Bards aren’t bad. People who play bards are 😂 One of the funniest bards was one who played a cowbell in our campaign. “We need more cowbell!”
Matt’s gonna buy Troy dice and remove the luck from them?
Music being magical and inspirational just doesn’t seem like a stretch to me. War drums were used in actual warfare. A cleric’s healing beams? Not so much.
The problem isn't the bard class. It's Joe's lack of imagination
42:09 "It's too heavy for you. You're weak."
Sydney can you please perform a song in Gnomish for us? Just what ever random sou ds and noises you can make. Bonus points if you can make Joe twitch or tremble on camera for us. ❤ Gick, always remember feared 3 and fleeing.
The bard hate bit already feels old and overused (almost annoying already), so I hope it stops at some point.
Bards are not the only weird spellcasting class or feature. My problem is the Scanlan epidemic: Almost any bard feels like that stupid constantly seducing, always joking, etc. clichee.
Thorne on Legacy, Leliana in Dragon Age Origins, etc. - there are good examples of cool bards.
You’ve been Thunder-Jawned!
Yeah, played a Bard in 1E AD&D, as well as 2E and 5E D&D. They're very effective in what they do. But it seems the "in combat" thing still confuses Joe.
Okay. Try this. Imagine Theoden as a Valor/Sword Bard. Now his speech before the charge of the Rohirrim becomes a spell.
Consider the historical references in multiple cultures (eg. Scotland, Norway, India, etc) of warrior poets. They who inspired then lead forces into battle.
Try remembering the old Zulu movie (Michael Cain), before the final charge of the Zulu at Rorkes Drift. That's completely a battle between rival bards.
Lastly, since Joe has clearly never been to a Metal concert, the power of performance to drive a crowd into a frenzy, then bring them back down, really needs to be experienced.
Bards are more than just singing. The right speech. A haka. The haunting wail of bagpipes in combat.
Be open to possibility.
Is nobody going to talk about Syds cat costume?
Whatever you think of Bards, Troy and Joe apparently allowed her to make and play the character. They then proceeded to bash Sydney for a majority of the banter is just BS. Sydney is a better person than me is what i learned.
It's hilarious and kinda sad how personally people are taking the guys bagging on bards.
They're having fun, chill tf out Naish.
Your subjective opinions on bards are no better than theirs.
Bards in d&d are basically the Skalds from Norse tradition : literate people that are fighters too, so skillfull in many things that they were crown/nobles councillors. And power through music/words to inspire allies and inspire fear in enemies probably from historical figures of Scottish drummers/bagpipes musicians (they were even a thing during the battle in Normandy in ww2)
Yeah, go Bards !
( love that mix of the title and Kate's explosion of joy on the image )
Don't bring singers into my dragon wizard game. Immersion breaking I can't pretend anymore.
Still watching these grown people talk about not singing a song in a role playing game jesus christ. I hope she sings a fuckin musical for the next 10 episodes.
Happy New Year, GCN, and Naish!! Looking forward to a fun-filled 2025 full of TPKs and new character intros! 😅
The Naish Vegas meet promo makes me uncomfortable, because i'm pretty sure this is the first reveal we've seen Kate's ear and I feel like I need to apologize to her for it. I feel like we just read her diary or something.
:D I had not noticed. Ear reveal.
Sydney during the bant: "Joe, why don't you do something useful for a change?!"
Sydney after combat: "lolz, heal me pls"
The constant ragging on Syd and Bards kind of soured the episode. Bards have been in fiction for a long time. I get that you might not want current pop songs but how is a song doing damage any more game breaking than wiggling fingers and a word causing damage?
Thom Merrilin is a bard from WOT. And he's bad ass!!!
52:52 There are no components anymore. The only thing that matters is whether a spell has the Manipulate trait or not. You still have to be able to speak though.
Syd and Kate high-fiving is my favorite thing 👏
This whole bard/syd bashing feels like "oh you like this, name ten whatevers". A bunch of old white dudes telling a younger woman how to play the game to their standard, or as you may otherwise know it, "the right way".
Glad you're back gang . happy new year.
If I was about to be in a fight and Led Zeppelin started playing Immigrant Song right behind me, my chances of winning that fight increases ten fold. Just saying.
Thunderjawn was the original name of the massive robot in Horizon: Zero Jawn
The only real problem I have with bards, is that like 90% of players play them the exact same way.
My idea for bard is they know how to weave sound waves to create concentrated spikes and dips that cause effects. Like rubbing your finger on a wine glass at the right speed and pressure to create resonance, the bard sees the harmonic fabric of the world and manipulates it. Actually makes more sense than "I'm a wizard and I have a bird feather and know how to flap my hands and say stuff therefore i cast fly"
You needed to have levels of fighter, thief, and Druid to qualify as a Bard in the old days, and you needed a 15 in FOUR different stats. It was indeed SUPER hard to qualify for but they were very, very powerful if you ever actually came across one.
OG bards were incredibly hard to make needing 15+ in something like 4 abilities and then having to level up in several classes before actually becoming a bard. Dope AF but almost impossible to make.
Syds cap is awesome
I like how the ep starts with bard bashing
HOWEVER
Flash mobs exist, so busting out into song and dance in public spontaneously is a thing that happens outside of musicals.
Think of biting words as "The Voice" from Dune.
53:43
Interesting how nobody seemed to care that Skid made his Flat Check AFTER the Frostbite roll.
Edit: Not an "attack" roll, but also not the point.
Frostbite doesn't have an attack roll, it's a saving throw spell.
@@Jackson79136 Regardless, my point was that the Flat Check was made after the fact, which has been a point of contention.
@@0282097 incorrect, the contention has always been about the order of rolling the flat check when there is an attack roll, because some at the table were arguing they intended their first roll to be the attack roll while others were arguing that RAW the flat check is always first.
When you roll the flat check for a saving throw spell it doesn’t matter at all when you roll it as long as you remember to do it, because there’s nothing else that roll can be, and has never been a point of argument on this show.
I feel your pain Joe, I absolutely hate the Bard character class, specifically how pop culture latched onto that class and made them sex hounds that are super annoying. It was the reason why I hated The Witcher and couldn't get in Vox (beside all the characters being tropes and cliches).
I know I'm going to get downvoted to hell for this opinion but that's just how I feel.
Sydney... Love The Hat
Just thinking another dull week was about to end, and along come you guys to fill the world with sunshine! Ever since covid times so please please keep going forever!
When Skid was talking about AD&D Bards, it would have been so awesome to play Nerdage again. It’s been so long since that dropped played.
This was a great ep!! Happy New Year guys. I hope this year starts off well for you all.
Anyone else always make sure they have a nooner ready for Thursday night? Sad I know my last one is going soon.
Better apologise to Syd attacking her class choice lol
Also yall, they are friends. They’re ribbing Syd because they like her.
Bards are cool. You’re a hater this time Joe. I do think it’s more fun to play them as a mystic or spellcaster who happens to use song as their casting. It’s totally normal to imagine Gandalf humming or chanting something as casting. I feel like you’re really fixating on how other people react to the bard as a singer, as if he was a normal singer who got bitten by a radioactive singer and became a magic singer.
Bro, it’s just a mage with song-magic. The Hound doesn’t bring Ed Sheeran to the battle but he could easily bring a man with a magical flute, or a wizard who knows a healing song, or anysuch. There’s a weird performer/bard conflation in the newer additions I agree is silly, but i think the concept is sound.
Laurie in Midkemia is a bard but Bard in the Hobbit isn't.
So the god of books letting you heal is fine, but someone channeling magic through music is game-breaking? Musical magic has long had a place in mythology.
Imagining the effect of 'laughing fit' as feeling as if you're being tickled against your will and can't get away - that is horrifying. Abyone who's been in a similar situation knows how bad it is.
I only played a bard in BG2 (so a variation upon 3.5 rules), and they were great. High damage output, and with all the magical armour and spell resistances they could cast, the bard did great on the very front lines of any fight. The class felt like a streamlined fighter/mage/a bit of rogue.
OK, just starting the ep, and wondering why everyone is wearing black except Skid. I mean, I know that I've heard that the series is endin.Did they know before this episode that they were going to end it on this episode.
The miles of the day
and all that ye slay
and all that lines up ta kills ya
will all fade away
so down all ye lay
and listen while ol' Welby heals ya
My latest character's (class randomly selected, I hate bards too) Song of Healing (5e but still applies). The ONLY way to make it cool is to write your own songs.
When i hear this intro music ..man i just go Wild, i can't help It.
sing Sid sing
I know it's easy to pile on Sydney and I'm usually all for it, but really with the bard slander? Y'all, if you wanted an optimized party with the requisite RPG triumvirate (DPS / Tank / Healer) then you wouldn't have started the campaign by expressly limiting PC coordination and obfuscating classes and ancestries. I LOVED the separate Session Zero videos. But guys... you chose this life. Your party is a ramshackle bunch of mismatched weirdos plagued by bad dice rolls and a stubborn GM. You Chose This Life.
Anyway, praise log, GCN Forever
👏👏👏
I rarely single out one player in a comment, but dammit Sydney, leave the bards for players with less dignity and self awareness...like in Legacy (lol sorry Nick). Seriously though, she will be fine in a week or two. Once Sydney starts to settle into the character
Goddam guys you are on the last few episodes, chill on the poo poo on a class BS. Let Syd have her fun for a bit.