I have to wonder after the release of the 2020 NEC, how many executives from the major electrical supply manufacturers, as well as insurance industry lawyers were involved in these revisions. Some things make sense, such as AFCI's in some instances, whole house surge protection, 70 lb. fan boxes, and 50 lb. ceiling light boxes. Others make no sense other than to jack the cost of constructiuon up, and rake in windfall profits for suppliers, and even service providers down the road. For example GFCI protection for HVAC units, WHY?? The entire enclosure is bonded to equipment grounding, if there is a ground fault it will trip the breaker, seldom does the average homeowner touch the compressor/condenser and air handler units and a service tech shouldn't be handling the equipment if they aren't trained on electrical safety. I can see a lot of "nussiance trips" of the GFCI just from normally occurring conditions that present no safety/fire hazard such as condensation on compressor contacts, or a little moisture that got inside the condensor fan during a torrential summer thunderstorm, or even a contactor with sticky contacts. A lot of HVAC contractors will be having orgasms at how many new units they will be able to sell claiming they have "dangerous" electrical fault, or "Your unit isn't compatible with new electrical systems.". The GFCI on the dryer, again, really?, The case is bonded, and unless the dryer is wet garage or basement concrete floor shouldn't present any life threatening ground faults so long as the case is grounded properly. How many nussance issues will happen here, such as moisture from the wet clothes accumulating around the electrical components, or even a little lint on the heating elements. Aside from someone with no electrical knowledge who didn't remove the bonding jumper on a 4 wire pigtail I see no logic here. The range GFCI again, aside from incorrect pigtail wiring presents even less danger, most ranges aren't in close proximity to the sink or water sources. This is just enhancing the planned obsolescence of appliances that are beyond 7 years of age. Depending on the brand of breaker panel used, as few as three 2 pole GFCI breakers could cost more than the panel itself. Imagine having to upgrade a panel in an older home, the new NEC requirements would make it cost prohibitive in many instances, I see a lot of unpermitted work being done.
I just yesterday pulled a 14 2 from behind a removed Brand new manufactured Home Porch light box, 24" of the NMB was UN-stapled.... My Neighbor's help us out when we need it so I did their new service at there new location, an attached Garage was added so the porch light was not cool any more.
Yes the main breaker on a main breaker panel as long as it's listed for service equipment can be used as this disconnect, it still would have to be located in the proper location
Tamper resistant.? When they first came out,..there were many customers (especially older people...remodels, etc.,) that asked us to remove the tamper resistant recepticals after final inspection and install "normal" ones. It has been quite a few years,..and this has not changed,. they are disliked by the majority of our remodel customers. I am not sure where our state legistlature will go with this, but they definitely threw out the requirement to have AFI protection....which, in my opinion, was a good call. I heard that 2 or 3 other states threw out the requirement to have gfci protection.
And I will answer the mystery "why 0.25 conductor after 4?" Airspace and heat dissipation. This isn't really anything new to us. "Hickeys and clamps" have been part of the calculations for at least a decade if not 2 or more. Most never bothered or understood why. Current-carrying conductors generate heat, and heat increases resistance, which is why we have to limit how many are in a box based on cubic inches of available airspace. If you have a 4-11/16" square by 2-1/8" box full of MC cables, you might have 8 insulated #12 grounding conductors just hanging out taking up airspace, and that adds up eventually to the point where your conductors and the box cannot dissipate heat as fast as it accumulates.
@@ElectricalCodeCoach Thanks! I just wanted to say that I appreciate all the hard work you put into these videos. Not only is the content superb but your motivational speaking is very inspiring!
How many people are electrocuted annually?? The number, no doubt inflated, stated by the U S Consumer Product Safety Commission is 400. Drugs causes 107,000, Traffic causes 42,000, and Food causes 3,000. THINK ABOUT IT!! The NEC is more concerned with employee job security than public safety!!!
Outdoor ac condensers don't have a common wire to connect to. The disconnect box doesnt have a connection for the wht wire. The whip doesnt have a wht wire in it. The 2020 NEC says It has to be gfci protected now. Where does the white wire go?
I'll guess that the gnd wire becomes common and gets the wht tape only at the condenser. In subpanels, what was gnd is now common. Just trying to figure it out.
can you clarify number 9? you referenced 210.8 (F) as being dwelling but is it not under 210.8 (B) Other than dwelling? 210.8 (A) (3) cover dwellings outdoor.
Its a great question! i do not know why the code does that! it does it for dishwashers as well. They are a separate codes but it can make it confusing by it not being listed under the dwelling unit list!!
I got zapped at the HVAC on the roof, because an idiot electrician did not bond the equipment. He just stuck a few inches of a green wire into a raceway, pretending that it's bonded. GFCI - a good call.
I have to wonder after the release of the 2020 NEC, how many executives from the major electrical supply manufacturers, as well as insurance industry lawyers were involved in these revisions. Some things make sense, such as AFCI's in some instances, whole house surge protection, 70 lb. fan boxes, and 50 lb. ceiling light boxes. Others make no sense other than to jack the cost of constructiuon up, and rake in windfall profits for suppliers, and even service providers down the road.
For example GFCI protection for HVAC units, WHY?? The entire enclosure is bonded to equipment grounding, if there is a ground fault it will trip the breaker, seldom does the average homeowner touch the compressor/condenser and air handler units and a service tech shouldn't be handling the equipment if they aren't trained on electrical safety. I can see a lot of "nussiance trips" of the GFCI just from normally occurring conditions that present no safety/fire hazard such as condensation on compressor contacts, or a little moisture that got inside the condensor fan during a torrential summer thunderstorm, or even a contactor with sticky contacts. A lot of HVAC contractors will be having orgasms at how many new units they will be able to sell claiming they have "dangerous" electrical fault, or "Your unit isn't compatible with new electrical systems.".
The GFCI on the dryer, again, really?, The case is bonded, and unless the dryer is wet garage or basement concrete floor shouldn't present any life threatening ground faults so long as the case is grounded properly. How many nussance issues will happen here, such as moisture from the wet clothes accumulating around the electrical components, or even a little lint on the heating elements. Aside from someone with no electrical knowledge who didn't remove the bonding jumper on a 4 wire pigtail I see no logic here.
The range GFCI again, aside from incorrect pigtail wiring presents even less danger, most ranges aren't in close proximity to the sink or water sources. This is just enhancing the planned obsolescence of appliances that are beyond 7 years of age. Depending on the brand of breaker panel used, as few as three 2 pole GFCI breakers could cost more than the panel itself. Imagine having to upgrade a panel in an older home, the new NEC requirements would make it cost prohibitive in many instances, I see a lot of unpermitted work being done.
Lets drive up the cost for customers!!!.....YES......👍👍👍.....for NO good reason.....😆
I just yesterday pulled a 14 2 from behind a removed Brand new manufactured Home Porch light box, 24" of the NMB was UN-stapled.... My Neighbor's help us out when we need it so I did their new service at there new location, an attached Garage was added so the porch light was not cool any more.
Yeah you run into all kinds of things on mobile homes!
Can you use a main breaker on a main breaker service panel for your emergency disconnect?
Yes the main breaker on a main breaker panel as long as it's listed for service equipment can be used as this disconnect, it still would have to be located in the proper location
#2, lots of people like having too many service loops in some areas.
Tamper resistant.? When they first came out,..there were many customers (especially older people...remodels, etc.,) that asked us to remove the tamper resistant recepticals after final inspection and install "normal" ones. It has been quite a few years,..and this has not changed,. they are disliked by the majority of our remodel customers. I am not sure where our state legistlature will go with this, but they definitely threw out the requirement to have AFI protection....which, in my opinion, was a good call. I heard that 2 or 3 other states threw out the requirement to have gfci protection.
Thanks Coach
Just a note on number 4. You only have to count grounds that do not originate from the box
Excellent point! You do not have to count any conductor that is a "pigtail" or jumper
And I will answer the mystery "why 0.25 conductor after 4?" Airspace and heat dissipation. This isn't really anything new to us. "Hickeys and clamps" have been part of the calculations for at least a decade if not 2 or more. Most never bothered or understood why. Current-carrying conductors generate heat, and heat increases resistance, which is why we have to limit how many are in a box based on cubic inches of available airspace. If you have a 4-11/16" square by 2-1/8" box full of MC cables, you might have 8 insulated #12 grounding conductors just hanging out taking up airspace, and that adds up eventually to the point where your conductors and the box cannot dissipate heat as fast as it accumulates.
Do disconnects for mini-split systems fall under this code change and require GFCI protection?
Great question! Yes!
@@ElectricalCodeCoach Thanks! I just wanted to say that I appreciate all the hard work you put into these videos. Not only is the content superb but your motivational speaking is very inspiring!
How many people are electrocuted annually?? The number, no doubt inflated, stated by the U S Consumer Product Safety Commission is 400. Drugs causes 107,000, Traffic causes 42,000, and Food causes 3,000. THINK ABOUT IT!! The NEC is more concerned with employee job security than public safety!!!
Outdoor ac condensers don't have a common wire to connect to. The disconnect box doesnt have a connection for the wht wire. The whip doesnt have a wht wire in it. The 2020 NEC says It has to be gfci protected now. Where does the white wire go?
I'll guess that the gnd wire becomes common and gets the wht tape only at the condenser. In subpanels, what was gnd is now common. Just trying to figure it out.
Breaker and wire manufacturers lobby hard to change the code ….
Back to square one and study all over again. Lol
Let's Get To It!!
just when you thought you had box fill figured out........
Lol I know it brother!
can you clarify number 9? you referenced 210.8 (F) as being dwelling but is it not under 210.8 (B) Other than dwelling?
210.8 (A) (3) cover dwellings outdoor.
Its a great question! i do not know why the code does that! it does it for dishwashers as well. They are a separate codes but it can make it confusing by it not being listed under the dwelling unit list!!
I got zapped at the HVAC on the roof, because an idiot electrician did not bond the equipment. He just stuck a few inches of a green wire into a raceway, pretending that it's bonded.
GFCI - a good call.
Very sorry to hear that! Glad your okay!
Just discovered your videos great content you got a new subscriber
Thank you! Welcome!!!