The idea that F1 consistently bans innovation boggles the mind. Well, until one considers the money involved, then the mind is deboggled. That being said, graphene is awesome!
itt works well because the tech that f1 uses is 'supposed' to pass down to our regularr cars. Of course that might change in he future with far less ICE cars being maade and used now
This product sets off my BS alarm. I hear a lot of claims, but little substance. Their website is full of unverifiable claims and doesn't actually give any detail about what this 'graphene' is supposed to actually do to improve thermal conductivity when suspended in a fluid. Ultimately water/glycol is a very effective cooling medium and improving on it without a lot of extra cost is difficult - the limiting factor is likely to be the surface area of the radiator and the amount of air flowing through it, so unless you can fundamentally improve that, the fluid inside it isn't going to make all that much difference. If you need more cooling capacity, increase the fin density and surface area of the radiator or fit more powerful fans to it.
You can't fool physics. Yes, this stuff can better remove heat from hot engine parts, but I don't think it will increase the efficiency of the radiators. Still, the metal-air process remains. And the more metal, the more contact with air and the more cooling. There is no additional substance in this equation.
This needs to be way higher in the comments list. Graphene would perhaps make for smaller channels to move waste heat between the engine and the heat exchanger, or could be used very effectively as a heat spreader inside of engines (to reduce hotspots or nuclear boiling) but the heat exchanger itself will still be limited by the materials it is made from and the air running through it.
@@Dayboot33 In my opinion, the limiting factor is air, its ability to absorb heat. With the same characteristics of the radiator and the same amount of air, there will be no difference between the water in the radiator and the miracle liquid. Under the same weather conditions and air temperature.
You are right but you can improve the "coolant to metal part" in the radiator thus doesn't matter if the "metal to air part" happens at the same rate, the overall time to transfer the heat would be shorter. Meaning that u can use a smaller radiator to achieve the same temperature drop for the coolant.
The switch to electric cars has shown that even when manufacturers have the option to go radical with new designs they just churn out stuff that looks like what we are used to. Making cooing requirements less won't really change anything apart from making parts smaller and the fluid changes more expensive.
Don't forget regulatory bodies and pedestrian safety... They're probably years behind what can be done with electric car packaging, so they err on the known side.
Exactly. Also, 60% better heat transfer from the fluid doesn't mean 60% smaller radiators; and the same could be achieved with higher airflow and coolant flow. This whole video seems overly optimistic, clickbaity, and low quality. Kinda sad from a great channel.
One thing..Even if the fluid is more efficient, you need to be able to extract the heat. Air can only pull so much into it, so you would still need a similar air flow volume to pull the same heat for just a fluidic change.
Which defeats the point of the video, which is radiators etc can be smaller. What would be needed would be more efficient transfer out of radiator and more air volume. @@dedasdude
With higher thermal conductivity, they could be planning to run more smaller diameter coolant passages through the block and head to make the temperature more uniform throughout, push the temperature up a bit for better thermal efficiency of the engine, and then force the air through at a higher velocity over a smaller, hotter radiator to achieve the same heat rejection. Just guessing.
If solid graphene has such a high thermal conductivity, why use liquid coolant at all? You could attach a band of graphene to the engine on one end and let it radiate the heat on the other. Furthermore, liquid graphene won't work as a viable alternative because all automotive fluids have to be non-toxic enough in case they leak into the groundwater or storm drain.
It depends on what it's suspended in but graphine is just carbon atoms, should be environmentally fine. it was first made (in Manchester) by using sticky tape to pull a pencil apart
All about surface area. Much like air cooling vs liquid cooling a PC, you still need a very large surface area with radiators to give enough fin surface area to create that heat exchange speed efficiency. Also think about other systems that use the cooling, like your heating in the car. No coolant means now you need inefficient heating solutions that degrade a lot of the benefits your gaining with this coolant. For example an electric heater system will rob power, or using engine heat becomes harder to control comfortable temperature/fumes and other unpleasentries.
Graphene strips and sheets also can only transfer heat one direction, or dimension as that makes a bit more sense. So if its in a sheet, it is the best at transferring heat edge to edge. When its trying to transfer heat on the flat, writing, parts, its thermal conductivity is horrible.
Im quite disappointed by this video - its quite misleading. The title is misleading - graphene is not illegal (though FIA has a rule that eliminates graphene from use in engines) and the science is not actually correct, and radiator size has littlte to no impact on car design. I'm quite disappointed that a channel of this prestige would be clickbaity
So the LTT video you linked, initially the nano fluid was within margin of error between it and water (basically no difference while within a normal room where temps were not controlled ), they did manage to get a consistent drop in temps when it was in a temperature controlled area but it wasn't that much it needs a lot more work and testing, especially in areas where the ambient temperature is high.
Great video lads! The moment I clicked on this i was like I remember LTT made a video about this stuff a while back, it was great to see that the video in question was actually mentioned. It's amazing that the computer and automotive scenes overlap with each other. Looking forward to more content like this :)
@2:39, the radiator at the upside of the screen is not original ford T model radiator. It is a never version and the production method of this radiator is CAB (controlled atmosphere brazing) and aluminum welding. However the original copper and brass version is made by soldering copper fins to brass tubes. Also headers of the radiator also soldered.
Why are there 0 mentions of the cons? 1:extreme abrasion everywhere it flows. 2:highly conductive so a spill/blowout could cause allot of electrical problems . 3:if the head gasket fails you can trow your block in the scrap metal bin. And this is just what I can think about without doing research, there are probably many more challenges to it.
Isn't this stuff a grift? It's been around for years, and the improvements it offers were measured to be marginal. There's an LTT video where the guys used this stuff (or an earlier form of it) in a PC cooling loop and it made like a 2 degree difference. Is that statistically greater than random? Sure. For anyone without the budget of an F1 team, is it worth going through the trouble of using this rather than the normal stuff, or even just distilled water and anti-freeze? You tell me.
Waterless coolants already exist (not graphene) and you can take off the radiator cap safely off a hot engine - it doesn't boil and transfers heat more efficiently than water BUT you can only use water in an F1 engine. Why ? Very simple - when a car crashes and spills coolant all over the road, they only allow water not to contaminate the road surface.
aren't multiple major car manufacturers already stopping developing new combustion engines? I feel like i've heard atleast Vw and Toyota saying that they won't do anymore after 2030 or something.
“Pre detonation” isn’t a thing. It’s a combination of 2 completely different ignition anomalies. Pre Ignition is spontaneous combustion before the spark plug fires. Detonation is a secondary combustion event inside the cylinder after the main ignition event. This causes competing flame fronts and a sudden and uncontrolled spike in cylinder pressure.
Would the graphene settle in radiators if the car is left unused for an extended time and would it choke the system if it happens along a narrow channel in the cooling system?
My guess is that this issue has been why it's been so hard to develop. I know from looking into graphene as a concrete additive that it isn't easy to get it into a fluid suspension. There are types of graphene that are much easier to do this with, the priciest types of course, like the turbostratic graphene that you get from Tour's Flash-Graphene synthesis. This just means that the flakes of graphene are not aligned with each other at all, which makes dispersion in fluid much easier. There is also an interesting, and very easy and cheap to replicate, process from a UK university that involves smashing up graphite in water using a food blender for an extended period. The end result of that is that the individual flakes of graphene DO stay suspended, while the heavier multi-layered clumps fall out of suspension and are separated out, but I'm not sure that it will stay suspended for very long. It's very suitable for something like addition to concrete, as that only calls for staying in suspension long enough to mix with the other ingredients in a uniform way, but I imagine there would be a need for other ingredients to keep it like that through varying temperature and pressure conditions.
I'm extremely curious about this too. In extremely high performance/exotic or race engines if the graphene would bond to the aluminum or magnesium engine block, water jackets, or in passageways after numerous or thousands of heat cycles creating clogs, sludge or debris. Also the effects of heat cycling graphene on things like seals, piping/tubing, etc. If its thermocycling heat out of the engine, and suddenly it cant will the graphene chemistry start breaking down? I wonder too what the lifespan of such an additive package is, and what risks come from exceeding it?
From a science standpoint this doesnt make sense. So lets assume you are pumping pure graphene yes more heat could be transfered to the graphene and more heat could be transfered from the graphene to the radiator but you would still need a big radiator because the cooling happens between the air and the radiator and graphene changes nothing in that department. Also the graphene needs to be suspended in a liquid which kinda acts like an insulator around the graphene Potentially it would wear down the coolant pump and could fall out of suspension if the car is sitting to long
No, you'd not get another 100bhp. As you increase the the power, by what ever means you employ to do so (timing, boost, ext..) the temperature of the engine increases. So, while you may see a 2 degree negative delta, that is only at baseline power. As you increase the power, the baseline temperature increases thereby reducing the deviation and further lowering the headroom for power increases.
Sounds like a promising technology. Hopefully they can pull it off and get it to market. There's lots to coolant that the average punter doesn't realise, and even small changes to the make-up can have knock-on consequences. An example is our preferred oil company was asked for a non glycol based coolant for our mining machinery to help prevent coolant fires [Glycol is flammable]. After several years of fighting cavitation issues, they came up with a blend that seemingly ticked all the boxes in relation to corrosion, anti boil and cavitation... Then we discovered that one particular brand of engine started failing engine oil heat exchangers. It was found that a solder use during manufacturing of the exchanger was reacting to the blend 😒 We're back with glycol again...
It's already available for open loop PC water cooling. It's effective in that application, but seen as a super expensive gimmick. It works well, but costs a lot and adds extra maintenance for something that can normally run forever with minimal maintenance. Car cooling systems are much less delicate though, there aren't tiny microfins to worry about clogging. This is definitely a far better application for the stuff.
I imagine there will be a lot of careful research into what these do when they are disposed of improperly... ...in about 50-60 years when any effects become prominent, like microplastics...
"...disposed of improperly..." You mean, like almost any significant front-end accident, at all, ever, i.e. all of them, nearly 100%, uniformly pouring coolant onto the ground and down the drain, like that? But yes, "disposal". ...and accidents.
People have been banging on about the properties of graphene for ages. A useful, affordable graphene coolant is years away and will be really expensive. Imagine how much the environmentalists will kick off if you spill some! In the mean time, try Water Wetter.
There were several things just glossed over in regards to F1 that give a skewed perspective on what actually is. First, the reason F1 has graphene coolant systems banned is for homologation reasons. They just simply haven't come up with rules for all teams to integrate graphene cooling into the cars. This is to ensure all teams have access and capability to develop it with their cars every season. Right now they're more focused on net 0 carbon footprint, and because they haven't finished the research and incorporation of low emission bio/synthetic fuels, adding in something else that directly interacts with the fuel changes they're working on would be a mess. Second is because it would be a waste currently due to the homologation rules. Even if they were to unban it, the requirements for the engines, minimum weight, size, etc... would mean teams couldn't really do much more than cool the engine more efficiently. Yes, they could reduce the sidepod size, but as Mercedes found out, you may not want to do that. Which brings us to the third thing. The reason the minimalistic sidepods didn't work for Mercedes wasn't anything to do with cooling. They've had about the same results as the other cars in that area. The reason they abandoned it was because of aerodynamics and the problems it was creating with ground effect (venturi tunnels). Basically this era of F1 cars that use ground effect have had better success with big sidepods that create a vortex over the side of the floor to seal the venturi tunnels.
im sure they could essentially turrn a current radiator around so to speak if they needed to, so it couldbe way fllatter but deeper allowing the shorter front profile. Of course we used to use just water for cooling not that long ago, im sure coolant was more than 50% more fficient than water so it isnt as tho we havent had this before :)
I think adding it to oil would be even more beneficial. Increased lubricity, which means you can reduce viscosity, and the added benefit of greater heat exchange. Take it a step further and coat the engine internals with graphene and you have yourself something. Almost zero surface wear on parts (which also reduces heat) and the ability to run higher compression, more fuel= more powahhh! [said in Clarkson’s voice]
Hmm. The thing with these nanoparticles is, we are already dealing with too many microplastics polluting our environment, this could make a coolant leak after an accident so much worse.
@@Grimm-Gaming "...only carbon..." I guess you don't understand the difference between atoms and molecules. A hyena is 70% water and plenty of perfectly harmless common atoms, but it'll still tear your face off when assembled into an unpleasant animal.
@JxH i guess u didnt watch the videos... its literally just carbon. Safe to eat drink put on your skin ecetera. The only negative is its mildly abrasive which is why its used in soaps and stuff + the purifying effect which is already cancelled out by the impurities there.
But I mean for everything that needs cooling, may even improve efficiency and power in electric cars as well, even heavy machines. That's incredible, I have a car from 81 and it overheats on hot days, this may save me from doing a giant radiator on it. Awesome tech! Great video thanks!
The coolant is only part of the solution because the coolant is reliant upon the distribution and the only component that has that job in a normal ICE is the water pump and if that pump is not up to spec then the distribution of the coolant regardless of it being water or nano glycol it needs to be distributed at a given rate. The given rate is 10 liters per minute at 500 rpm. Of course as the throttle is opened then too the distribution rate must increase to cope with the extra heat being created in the cylinder head . We have been doing this for about 30+ years and it works when you get it right regardless of the coolant.
I have waterless coolant in both my 4.0 V8 AMG and my Land Rover, it works very well, I wonder why these guys have not gone down the waterless route with a graphene additive?
Waterless doesn’t mean liquidless. It uses stuff like propylene glycol (pure “coolant”) undiluted by pure water. Interestingly propylene glycol and ethylene glycol have worse thermal conductivity than water does. A lot of race tracks ban “coolant” in radiators as it spilling onto tracks in accidents is an issue as it’s very slippery and takes longer to evaporate than water and it doesn’t cool your car better than pure water would anyway. Pure water for normal cars would need some “antifreeze” (coolant) in it while race cars aren’t often used in sub zero temperatures so it’s not required for that reason to. So waterless coolants can be seen as a bit of an expensive marketing gimmick really.
@@jim.franklinI was mainly replying to the commenter, but enlighten me, answer you own question then, why would they use waterless coolant to suspend graphene in over a water or water and conventional coolant mix and why do you run it in your vehicles. 😂
Sounds like graphene could play a major part in internal coatings of engines for heat dispersal along with intercooler and could use nano fluids in a water to air intercooler and maybe they could add it to engine and transmission oil depending on its abrasive properties potentially as a surface enhancer and also help shead heat faster, do hope synthetic fuel saves the ICE and we get to see stuff like this and digital valve trains become mainstream if car manufacturers have more trust that ICE will be around for the foreseeable future
Well, this gain in power can be applicable to race engines, not normal road cars that much. The only benefit would be less coolant pump power so better fuel economy. You can run your engine cooler but cooling the engine means more heat loss. Efficiency is basically an optimisation among heat losses, exhaust temperature and power output.
We have done a lot of research alongside universal matter on suspended graphene nanoplatelets. Graphene coolant is a nice idea, it wouldn’t be water based though as it is prone to agglomeration in water and this would clog the system.
I always appreciated more traditional design instead of screaming ones. Saying that graphene in cooling liquid will completely change car designs is a complete baloney XD
Seen this in pcs and it works great. Will work for any cooling, The issue is ice engines are not being designed anymore due to evs. Unless other fuels come along it’s a dead end for engine design other than maybe racing. Tuning though No need for ethanol
A problem with graphene in coolant liquid can be deposits. In the end, graphene is solid. If it is deposited in the cooling channels, that is a big problem in long run! It needs extensive testing at high temperature and flow rate conditions.
Don't some people use quite a bit of water in the fuel of retrofitted engines? Low Energy Nuclear Reactions are starting to be published on in peer reviewed journals. One atom in, another out, and thermal dynamics can end up VERY different.
It also has the very real potential to allow for drivers to detune their engines a bit for the sake of improving not only reliability, but fuel economy as well.
Synthetic fuels aren't usual, but aren't abundant enough to be cheap. Now if they want to be abundant enough, people need to back them or they need aftermarket support, just like synthetic fuel in south America that needs help also. Hopefully everyone will catch on and spread the word😎
this is all great, moving heat from engine. but the radiator needs to be size X to disapte heat X regardless where the heat comes from or how fast it's going to it. if anything might evenb need to be bigger to disapate all the exttra heat suddenly been dumped in it
If that really is the case with Nanofluid, just cooling the engine by 2°c and gain 100bhp would be an absolute game changer 😮. Imagine buying a standard 2023/4 Audi RS3 with around 400bhp, then swap your coolant, and suddenly you have 500bhp 😳. I know it's more technical and scientific than that, but still. Amazing.
Yep, and a 2hp engine (provided it is water cooled) would obviously leap directly to 102hp with a coolant change. Because the man said "+100hp" and we need not think too much.
If they can make sure it works while retaining the anti-boil, anti-freeze and galvanic corrosion inhibitors, could we see a simple bolt on/pour in upgrade, allowing for stock motors to be tuned for more power without much more than an ECU, fuel pump and injector swap?
glad I saved my comment towards the end... my comment was going to be about computer and more specifically CPU cooling as temperatures there fluctuate heavily but if you can cool a large cpu much more efficiently you can almost exponentially increase the power afforded to it... of course this may translate into only 10% gains but it is "free" if your cooler can handle it.
So you said that graphene is exceptionally strong. Why stop at fluids? If they can integrate it into the metals of the pistons, rings, cylinders, heads, and valves; then through the block and heads, theoretically you could go back to air cooling! Or even yet have the graphene coolant with it integrated into the metals and make absurd levels of power like a NHRA dragster, but doing it reliably!
Getting the heat from the engine faster isn't going to increase thermal efficiency, 30% pushes the piston down, 30% goes out the exhaust and 30% goes into the radiator is only going to increase cooling efficiency but won't make less heat in the cooling system.
If you can make a smaller more efficient cooling system, it can come up to operating temperature faster and more evenly. Better for emissions, performance, and longevity.
The limit is the limits of how fast air can absorb that heat. Does not mater if the liquid can absorb and release heat so well. The radiator will have to go through a redesign, to be able to release that heat to the air more efficiently. A second issue comes so it being a certain viscosity because of the ratio of graphene to liquid. Too much one way and its a syrup, the other has no added effects. Something else too, if it was being used in solid form, such as graphene strips and sheets they can only transfer heat one direction, or dimension as that makes a bit more sense. So if its in a sheet, it is the best at transferring heat edge to edge. When its trying to transfer heat on the flat, writing, parts, its thermal conductivity is horrible. Atleast for current tech,
Given that graphene transfers heat so well, wouldn't be even better to have engine components or the radiator made with the stuff? Imagine a head gasket that would help keep the cylinder head cooler directly? Or the radiator would just transfer the heat almost instantly.
Regular antifreeze is bad enough when it leaks out. Nanoparticles in waterways and soil aren't natural. Heat should travel through a solid or gel without circulation. Just having fins like the old air-cooled engines had may be all that's needed.
im confused you still have the ac coil which is the same size of the radiator, also engines works better at higher temperatures if you want power, however the issue is the parts melt so we use water to protect and cool the metal parts. other issues is cost of the liquid and if it leaks how bad is it for the environment, im sorry the coolants today are amazing and worst case you can use water in an emergency, water is amazing and cheap way to cool a engine.
What happens if Jeremy puts liquid graphene in his alfa romeo, it leaks all out onto the ground, and gets in to water supply? Hopefully the molecules are big enough for filters to handle.
It would work in an electric car too. It could take heat from the motors and electronics and transfer the heat to the batteries to increase cold weather range.
But the heat needs to be transferred from the cylinder walls to atmosphere. Between those there are cylinder block, hoses and the radiator and the coolant only transfers the heat forward. Radiator finally convects the heat to atmosphere and the liquid doesn't affect the efficiency of the radiator so much. It's still just aluminum
I wasn’t patient enough to watch this whole thing. There’s a reason engine cooling technology hasn’t changed, it doesn’t need to because it already works. Racing situations aside, car engine cooling is as efficient as it needs to be for the masses.
I don't know for sure, but if this is sponsored content (or in a grey area), remember the UK is particularly brutal about untagged ads. If not, then carry on.
The design of the front end of road going cars isn't going to change all that much, Pedestrian safety regulations will prevent a bunch of the changes Mike mentioned.
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
This needs to come out immediately so BMW can make their grilles smaller again.
If only😂.
😂
lol,
They don’t need to be that anyway, it’s an excuse for a terrible design choice.
😂 LMAO
New car magic cooling with bigger grill
The idea that F1 consistently bans innovation boggles the mind. Well, until one considers the money involved, then the mind is deboggled. That being said, graphene is awesome!
itt works well because the tech that f1 uses is 'supposed' to pass down to our regularr cars. Of course that might change in he future with far less ICE cars being maade and used now
F1 is a sport these days. I think when F1 goes either electric drive or completely electric you'll see innovation come back into the fold.
@@dabuessIt'll never go electric, they are fighting very hard to avoid that. Hence the heavy investment in bio fuels.
@@marksapollo If ever needed the formula e would level up.
F1 isn't innovative anymore. Anyone who innovates is branded a cheat and that innovation is banned. The "Formula" is so strict you basically cant
This product sets off my BS alarm. I hear a lot of claims, but little substance. Their website is full of unverifiable claims and doesn't actually give any detail about what this 'graphene' is supposed to actually do to improve thermal conductivity when suspended in a fluid.
Ultimately water/glycol is a very effective cooling medium and improving on it without a lot of extra cost is difficult - the limiting factor is likely to be the surface area of the radiator and the amount of air flowing through it, so unless you can fundamentally improve that, the fluid inside it isn't going to make all that much difference. If you need more cooling capacity, increase the fin density and surface area of the radiator or fit more powerful fans to it.
You can't fool physics. Yes, this stuff can better remove heat from hot engine parts, but I don't think it will increase the efficiency of the radiators. Still, the metal-air process remains. And the more metal, the more contact with air and the more cooling. There is no additional substance in this equation.
You also need to replace the Earth's entire atmosphere with the same nano-graphene fluid. Then it all makes sense.
This needs to be way higher in the comments list. Graphene would perhaps make for smaller channels to move waste heat between the engine and the heat exchanger, or could be used very effectively as a heat spreader inside of engines (to reduce hotspots or nuclear boiling) but the heat exchanger itself will still be limited by the materials it is made from and the air running through it.
Doesn't that depend on whether the current limiting factor is the coolant's ability to lose heat or the air's capacity to absorb it?
@@Dayboot33 In my opinion, the limiting factor is air, its ability to absorb heat. With the same characteristics of the radiator and the same amount of air, there will be no difference between the water in the radiator and the miracle liquid. Under the same weather conditions and air temperature.
You are right but you can improve the "coolant to metal part" in the radiator thus doesn't matter if the "metal to air part" happens at the same rate, the overall time to transfer the heat would be shorter.
Meaning that u can use a smaller radiator to achieve the same temperature drop for the coolant.
The switch to electric cars has shown that even when manufacturers have the option to go radical with new designs they just churn out stuff that looks like what we are used to. Making cooing requirements less won't really change anything apart from making parts smaller and the fluid changes more expensive.
Exactly my thoughts !
It'll be EV'a only, for the Civilised World, from 2030.
Don't forget regulatory bodies and pedestrian safety... They're probably years behind what can be done with electric car packaging, so they err on the known side.
Exactly. Also, 60% better heat transfer from the fluid doesn't mean 60% smaller radiators; and the same could be achieved with higher airflow and coolant flow.
This whole video seems overly optimistic, clickbaity, and low quality. Kinda sad from a great channel.
One thing..Even if the fluid is more efficient, you need to be able to extract the heat. Air can only pull so much into it, so you would still need a similar air flow volume to pull the same heat for just a fluidic change.
exactly right. i was thininking the same and looking for this comment. seems like sponsored content but there was no mention
yup. air is definetly the limiting factor. im calling bs
larger radiators.
Which defeats the point of the video, which is radiators etc can be smaller. What would be needed would be more efficient transfer out of radiator and more air volume.
@@dedasdude
With higher thermal conductivity, they could be planning to run more smaller diameter coolant passages through the block and head to make the temperature more uniform throughout, push the temperature up a bit for better thermal efficiency of the engine, and then force the air through at a higher velocity over a smaller, hotter radiator to achieve the same heat rejection. Just guessing.
If solid graphene has such a high thermal conductivity, why use liquid coolant at all? You could attach a band of graphene to the engine on one end and let it radiate the heat on the other. Furthermore, liquid graphene won't work as a viable alternative because all automotive fluids have to be non-toxic enough in case they leak into the groundwater or storm drain.
It depends on what it's suspended in but graphine is just carbon atoms, should be environmentally fine. it was first made (in Manchester) by using sticky tape to pull a pencil apart
All about surface area. Much like air cooling vs liquid cooling a PC, you still need a very large surface area with radiators to give enough fin surface area to create that heat exchange speed efficiency. Also think about other systems that use the cooling, like your heating in the car. No coolant means now you need inefficient heating solutions that degrade a lot of the benefits your gaining with this coolant. For example an electric heater system will rob power, or using engine heat becomes harder to control comfortable temperature/fumes and other unpleasentries.
Graphene strips and sheets also can only transfer heat one direction, or dimension as that makes a bit more sense. So if its in a sheet, it is the best at transferring heat edge to edge. When its trying to transfer heat on the flat, writing, parts, its thermal conductivity is horrible.
Coolant is very toxic
Im quite disappointed by this video - its quite misleading. The title is misleading - graphene is not illegal (though FIA has a rule that eliminates graphene from use in engines) and the science is not actually correct, and radiator size has littlte to no impact on car design. I'm quite disappointed that a channel of this prestige would be clickbaity
So the LTT video you linked, initially the nano fluid was within margin of error between it and water (basically no difference while within a normal room where temps were not controlled ), they did manage to get a consistent drop in temps when it was in a temperature controlled area but it wasn't that much it needs a lot more work and testing, especially in areas where the ambient temperature is high.
Great video lads! The moment I clicked on this i was like I remember LTT made a video about this stuff a while back, it was great to see that the video in question was actually mentioned. It's amazing that the computer and automotive scenes overlap with each other. Looking forward to more content like this :)
Never thought I'd see a Drivetribe video mentioning LTT!
Speaking of LTT hes a segue, To our sponsor!
LTT has been losing credibility lately, so the name drop was a bit odd.
Where was LTT mentioned?
Tuning cars and tuning computers are very similar hobbies.
LTT is about as reliable as your local dodgy mechanic. Too many jobs(videos) not enough quality control.
The equation about temperature and horsepower seems a bit stretched. Gain 10 hp with a 0.2°c drop in temperature? Hmmm
i say false and and post study
Still got to remember the regulations regarding the space between the bonnet and the top of the engine for pedestrian saafety.
yea thats right, look at early 90s Hondas (integra) and how low the front of the hood was.
@@ghostrider-be9ek That's because it was made before the regulation came in.
So what about a Corvette? McLaren? Etc
@@sinformant Current Corvette and McLaren are mid-engined. Old Corvette didn't comply as it wasn't officially sold in the EU.
@@Weissman111 I didn't know you were talking about Europe regulations as it wasn't stated. I live in the us.
@2:39, the radiator at the upside of the screen is not original ford T model radiator. It is a never version and the production method of this radiator is CAB (controlled atmosphere brazing) and aluminum welding. However the original copper and brass version is made by soldering copper fins to brass tubes. Also headers of the radiator also soldered.
Why are there 0 mentions of the cons?
1:extreme abrasion everywhere it flows.
2:highly conductive so a spill/blowout could cause allot of electrical problems .
3:if the head gasket fails you can trow your block in the scrap metal bin.
And this is just what I can think about without doing research, there are probably many more challenges to it.
Isn't this stuff a grift? It's been around for years, and the improvements it offers were measured to be marginal. There's an LTT video where the guys used this stuff (or an earlier form of it) in a PC cooling loop and it made like a 2 degree difference.
Is that statistically greater than random? Sure. For anyone without the budget of an F1 team, is it worth going through the trouble of using this rather than the normal stuff, or even just distilled water and anti-freeze? You tell me.
Dude what is with that background music noise during the radiator design section, it’s torture
Waterless coolants already exist (not graphene) and you can take off the radiator cap safely off a hot engine - it doesn't boil and transfers heat more efficiently than water BUT you can only use water in an F1 engine. Why ? Very simple - when a car crashes and spills coolant all over the road, they only allow water not to contaminate the road surface.
Great to see people not giving up on the internal combustion engine just yet.
aren't multiple major car manufacturers already stopping developing new combustion engines? I feel like i've heard atleast Vw and Toyota saying that they won't do anymore after 2030 or something.
You guys went full adhd with today's thumbnail lol only thing missing is a giant red arrow/circle.
And someone with their mouth open
@@nijasty LOL they changed it 🤣 it literally did have that too.
And is it illegal? Not mentioned anywhere
What about the extreme abrasion that will occur in the water pump!
It's also super conductive regarding electricity. A spill inside your engine bay would need an excessive cleaning.
It may not be an issue as graphite can actually be a good lubricant
please please please i beg of you stop with the moronic clickbait titles and thumbnails, we are going to watch regardless
“Pre detonation” isn’t a thing. It’s a combination of 2 completely different ignition anomalies.
Pre Ignition is spontaneous combustion before the spark plug fires. Detonation is a secondary combustion event inside the cylinder after the main ignition event. This causes competing flame fronts and a sudden and uncontrolled spike in cylinder pressure.
Would the graphene settle in radiators if the car is left unused for an extended time and would it choke the system if it happens along a narrow channel in the cooling system?
My guess is that this issue has been why it's been so hard to develop. I know from looking into graphene as a concrete additive that it isn't easy to get it into a fluid suspension. There are types of graphene that are much easier to do this with, the priciest types of course, like the turbostratic graphene that you get from Tour's Flash-Graphene synthesis. This just means that the flakes of graphene are not aligned with each other at all, which makes dispersion in fluid much easier.
There is also an interesting, and very easy and cheap to replicate, process from a UK university that involves smashing up graphite in water using a food blender for an extended period. The end result of that is that the individual flakes of graphene DO stay suspended, while the heavier multi-layered clumps fall out of suspension and are separated out, but I'm not sure that it will stay suspended for very long. It's very suitable for something like addition to concrete, as that only calls for staying in suspension long enough to mix with the other ingredients in a uniform way, but I imagine there would be a need for other ingredients to keep it like that through varying temperature and pressure conditions.
I'm extremely curious about this too. In extremely high performance/exotic or race engines if the graphene would bond to the aluminum or magnesium engine block, water jackets, or in passageways after numerous or thousands of heat cycles creating clogs, sludge or debris. Also the effects of heat cycling graphene on things like seals, piping/tubing, etc. If its thermocycling heat out of the engine, and suddenly it cant will the graphene chemistry start breaking down? I wonder too what the lifespan of such an additive package is, and what risks come from exceeding it?
From a science standpoint this doesnt make sense.
So lets assume you are pumping pure graphene
yes more heat could be transfered to the graphene and more heat could be transfered from the graphene to the radiator but you would still need a big radiator because the cooling happens between the air and the radiator and graphene changes nothing in that department.
Also the graphene needs to be suspended in a liquid which kinda acts like an insulator around the graphene
Potentially it would wear down the coolant pump and could fall out of suspension if the car is sitting to long
No, you'd not get another 100bhp. As you increase the the power, by what ever means you employ to do so (timing, boost, ext..) the temperature of the engine increases.
So, while you may see a 2 degree negative delta, that is only at baseline power. As you increase the power, the baseline temperature increases thereby reducing the deviation and further lowering the headroom for power increases.
Sounds like a promising technology.
Hopefully they can pull it off and get it to market.
There's lots to coolant that the average punter doesn't realise, and even small changes to the make-up can have knock-on consequences.
An example is our preferred oil company was asked for a non glycol based coolant for our mining machinery to help prevent coolant fires [Glycol is flammable].
After several years of fighting cavitation issues, they came up with a blend that seemingly ticked all the boxes in relation to corrosion, anti boil and cavitation... Then we discovered that one particular brand of engine started failing engine oil heat exchangers.
It was found that a solder use during manufacturing of the exchanger was reacting to the blend 😒
We're back with glycol again...
It's already available for open loop PC water cooling. It's effective in that application, but seen as a super expensive gimmick. It works well, but costs a lot and adds extra maintenance for something that can normally run forever with minimal maintenance. Car cooling systems are much less delicate though, there aren't tiny microfins to worry about clogging. This is definitely a far better application for the stuff.
I imagine there will be a lot of careful research into what these do when they are disposed of improperly...
...in about 50-60 years when any effects become prominent, like microplastics...
"...disposed of improperly..."
You mean, like almost any significant front-end accident, at all, ever, i.e. all of them, nearly 100%, uniformly pouring coolant onto the ground and down the drain, like that?
But yes, "disposal". ...and accidents.
People have been banging on about the properties of graphene for ages. A useful, affordable graphene coolant is years away and will be really expensive. Imagine how much the environmentalists will kick off if you spill some! In the mean time, try Water Wetter.
There were several things just glossed over in regards to F1 that give a skewed perspective on what actually is. First, the reason F1 has graphene coolant systems banned is for homologation reasons. They just simply haven't come up with rules for all teams to integrate graphene cooling into the cars. This is to ensure all teams have access and capability to develop it with their cars every season. Right now they're more focused on net 0 carbon footprint, and because they haven't finished the research and incorporation of low emission bio/synthetic fuels, adding in something else that directly interacts with the fuel changes they're working on would be a mess.
Second is because it would be a waste currently due to the homologation rules. Even if they were to unban it, the requirements for the engines, minimum weight, size, etc... would mean teams couldn't really do much more than cool the engine more efficiently. Yes, they could reduce the sidepod size, but as Mercedes found out, you may not want to do that.
Which brings us to the third thing. The reason the minimalistic sidepods didn't work for Mercedes wasn't anything to do with cooling. They've had about the same results as the other cars in that area. The reason they abandoned it was because of aerodynamics and the problems it was creating with ground effect (venturi tunnels). Basically this era of F1 cars that use ground effect have had better success with big sidepods that create a vortex over the side of the floor to seal the venturi tunnels.
I think Graphene batteries will change the automotive world before Graphene nano-fluid coolant.
Agree!!!!
im sure they could essentially turrn a current radiator around so to speak if they needed to, so it couldbe way fllatter but deeper allowing the shorter front profile. Of course we used to use just water for cooling not that long ago, im sure coolant was more than 50% more fficient than water so it isnt as tho we havent had this before :)
5:12 isnt it Centre and not Center? Drivetribe is British so I assume you wouldn't use American English
Banned by the FIA. So not illegal then 🙄
I think adding it to oil would be even more beneficial. Increased lubricity, which means you can reduce viscosity, and the added benefit of greater heat exchange. Take it a step further and coat the engine internals with graphene and you have yourself something. Almost zero surface wear on parts (which also reduces heat) and the ability to run higher compression, more fuel= more powahhh! [said in Clarkson’s voice]
Hmm. The thing with these nanoparticles is, we are already dealing with too many microplastics polluting our environment, this could make a coolant leak after an accident so much worse.
Its only carbon though. No harm no foul
@@Grimm-Gaming "...only carbon..."
I guess you don't understand the difference between atoms and molecules.
A hyena is 70% water and plenty of perfectly harmless common atoms, but it'll still tear your face off when assembled into an unpleasant animal.
@JxH i guess u didnt watch the videos... its literally just carbon. Safe to eat drink put on your skin ecetera. The only negative is its mildly abrasive which is why its used in soaps and stuff + the purifying effect which is already cancelled out by the impurities there.
@@JxH also lol. Hyenas r cute till there not
Make the heat exchanger out of grapheme.
But I mean for everything that needs cooling, may even improve efficiency and power in electric cars as well, even heavy machines. That's incredible, I have a car from 81 and it overheats on hot days, this may save me from doing a giant radiator on it. Awesome tech! Great video thanks!
The coolant is only part of the solution because the coolant is reliant upon the distribution and the only component that has that job in a normal ICE is the water pump and if that pump is not up to spec then the distribution of the coolant regardless of it being water or nano glycol it needs to be distributed at a given rate. The given rate is 10 liters per minute at 500 rpm. Of course as the throttle is opened then too the distribution rate must increase to cope with the extra heat being created in the cylinder head . We have been doing this for about 30+ years and it works when you get it right regardless of the coolant.
I have waterless coolant in both my 4.0 V8 AMG and my Land Rover, it works very well, I wonder why these guys have not gone down the waterless route with a graphene additive?
Wait. How does this work?????
Waterless doesn’t mean liquidless. It uses stuff like propylene glycol (pure “coolant”) undiluted by pure water. Interestingly propylene glycol and ethylene glycol have worse thermal conductivity than water does. A lot of race tracks ban “coolant” in radiators as it spilling onto tracks in accidents is an issue as it’s very slippery and takes longer to evaporate than water and it doesn’t cool your car better than pure water would anyway. Pure water for normal cars would need some “antifreeze” (coolant) in it while race cars aren’t often used in sub zero temperatures so it’s not required for that reason to. So waterless coolants can be seen as a bit of an expensive marketing gimmick really.
@@A1-qu6kl Thanks for mansplaining. I never learnt the different between water and other liquids in 42 years of engineering and science - just wow 🫣
@@jim.franklinI was mainly replying to the commenter, but enlighten me, answer you own question then, why would they use waterless coolant to suspend graphene in over a water or water and conventional coolant mix and why do you run it in your vehicles. 😂
Sounds like graphene could play a major part in internal coatings of engines for heat dispersal along with intercooler and could use nano fluids in a water to air intercooler and maybe they could add it to engine and transmission oil depending on its abrasive properties potentially as a surface enhancer and also help shead heat faster, do hope synthetic fuel saves the ICE and we get to see stuff like this and digital valve trains become mainstream if car manufacturers have more trust that ICE will be around for the foreseeable future
Well, this gain in power can be applicable to race engines, not normal road cars that much. The only benefit would be less coolant pump power so better fuel economy. You can run your engine cooler but cooling the engine means more heat loss. Efficiency is basically an optimisation among heat losses, exhaust temperature and power output.
We have done a lot of research alongside universal matter on suspended graphene nanoplatelets.
Graphene coolant is a nice idea, it wouldn’t be water based though as it is prone to agglomeration in water and this would clog the system.
I always appreciated more traditional design instead of screaming ones.
Saying that graphene in cooling liquid will completely change car designs is a complete baloney XD
I can't wait to try it in my stock 4dr civic.
Seen this in pcs and it works great.
Will work for any cooling,
The issue is ice engines are not being designed anymore due to evs.
Unless other fuels come along it’s a dead end for engine design other than maybe racing.
Tuning though No need for ethanol
Granted, the technology could still be used in EVs, as they do still require cooling.
Whats the toxicity of nanofluid
Ask Phizer.
A problem with graphene in coolant liquid can be deposits. In the end, graphene is solid. If it is deposited in the cooling channels, that is a big problem in long run! It needs extensive testing at high temperature and flow rate conditions.
*Nucleate boiling, not nuclear.
Don't some people use quite a bit of water in the fuel of retrofitted engines? Low Energy Nuclear Reactions are starting to be published on in peer reviewed journals. One atom in, another out, and thermal dynamics can end up VERY different.
It also has the very real potential to allow for drivers to detune their engines a bit for the sake of improving not only reliability, but fuel economy as well.
Quite interesting. Thx for the Video
Synthetic fuels aren't usual, but aren't abundant enough to be cheap. Now if they want to be abundant enough, people need to back them or they need aftermarket support, just like synthetic fuel in south America that needs help also. Hopefully everyone will catch on and spread the word😎
I’m glad all the scientists who watch Drive Tribe, have this product worked out faster than the company investing fortunes in it.
I can imagine Christine Horner having a hissy fit about this 🤣🤣🤣
Nano scale stuff is very interesting but I'm concerned about the effects on the environment and biological effects.
this is all great, moving heat from engine. but the radiator needs to be size X to disapte heat X regardless where the heat comes from or how fast it's going to it. if anything might evenb need to be bigger to disapate all the exttra heat suddenly been dumped in it
With all the superior qualities of graphene, I’d have thought the projected improvement would be MUCH greater than just 60% to be honest.
If that really is the case with Nanofluid, just cooling the engine by 2°c and gain 100bhp would be an absolute game changer 😮.
Imagine buying a standard 2023/4 Audi RS3 with around 400bhp, then swap your coolant, and suddenly you have 500bhp 😳. I know it's more technical and scientific than that, but still. Amazing.
Yep, and a 2hp engine (provided it is water cooled) would obviously leap directly to 102hp with a coolant change.
Because the man said "+100hp" and we need not think too much.
Wow....how much did they pay you for this?
If they can make sure it works while retaining the anti-boil, anti-freeze and galvanic corrosion inhibitors, could we see a simple bolt on/pour in upgrade, allowing for stock motors to be tuned for more power without much more than an ECU, fuel pump and injector swap?
glad I saved my comment towards the end... my comment was going to be about computer and more specifically CPU cooling as temperatures there fluctuate heavily but if you can cool a large cpu much more efficiently you can almost exponentially increase the power afforded to it... of course this may translate into only 10% gains but it is "free" if your cooler can handle it.
Ffs Mike they haven't 'ran' tests they have RUN tests.
So you said that graphene is exceptionally strong. Why stop at fluids? If they can integrate it into the metals of the pistons, rings, cylinders, heads, and valves; then through the block and heads, theoretically you could go back to air cooling! Or even yet have the graphene coolant with it integrated into the metals and make absurd levels of power like a NHRA dragster, but doing it reliably!
Also, area percentage is not as extreme as you might expect. 60% smaller radiator wouldn't shrink it by as much as imagined.
Getting the heat from the engine faster isn't going to increase thermal efficiency, 30% pushes the piston down, 30% goes out the exhaust and 30% goes into the radiator is only going to increase cooling efficiency but won't make less heat in the cooling system.
So, how much is the engine negatively affected if a gasket compromise begins and this additive begins seeping into spaces not intended?
Doesn't a (modern) car have to come to normally operating temperature to reach peak power and efficiency ?
Basically yes, a steady 100C ish
Yes, but it also can't run much hotter than that and that's where the benefit of this would be found. The video explains it well from about 6:18
@@davedyer3654 its usually 80c in many hondas.
@@ghostrider-be9ek as an average, over 100 around the cylinders but boiling controlled due to the pressure cap
If you can make a smaller more efficient cooling system, it can come up to operating temperature faster and more evenly. Better for emissions, performance, and longevity.
We’ve been using/ trialing graphiene in road surfacing for a little while now
The limit is the limits of how fast air can absorb that heat. Does not mater if the liquid can absorb and release heat so well. The radiator will have to go through a redesign, to be able to release that heat to the air more efficiently.
A second issue comes so it being a certain viscosity because of the ratio of graphene to liquid. Too much one way and its a syrup, the other has no added effects.
Something else too, if it was being used in solid form, such as graphene strips and sheets they can only transfer heat one direction, or dimension as that makes a bit more sense. So if its in a sheet, it is the best at transferring heat edge to edge. When its trying to transfer heat on the flat, writing, parts, its thermal conductivity is horrible. Atleast for current tech,
Yes! Just what we need. Graphene released into the environment at every crash.
BMW will still insist on the huge grilles though
hehe
It's to upsell you to the higher range models that still have a normal grill.
Graphene is only one way to drop the temperature of an engine:
You can also drop the temp of an engine by bonding a lubricant to the metal.
:-)
Imagine using the graphene film for the radiator using the nano fluid with it you would have drastic changes for the better
As long as the heater still works well in winter I'm all in . 😊
Given that graphene transfers heat so well, wouldn't be even better to have engine components or the radiator made with the stuff? Imagine a head gasket that would help keep the cylinder head cooler directly? Or the radiator would just transfer the heat almost instantly.
I reckon you’d get hot stops in the cylinder due to constant heat and cold spots in the rad, as nothing would circulate, dunno though😂
It needs to be remembered that the grossly inefficient ICE engine needs to run at almost 100C to get the 30% efficiency it currently has
Regular antifreeze is bad enough when it leaks out.
Nanoparticles in waterways and soil aren't natural.
Heat should travel through a solid or gel without circulation.
Just having fins like the old air-cooled engines had may be all that's needed.
Love the thumbnail :) much better :) great vid.
im confused you still have the ac coil which is the same size of the radiator, also engines works better at higher temperatures if you want power, however the issue is the parts melt so we use water to protect and cool the metal parts. other issues is cost of the liquid and if it leaks how bad is it for the environment, im sorry the coolants today are amazing and worst case you can use water in an emergency, water is amazing and cheap way to cool a engine.
What happens if Jeremy puts liquid graphene in his alfa romeo, it leaks all out onto the ground, and gets in to water supply? Hopefully the molecules are big enough for filters to handle.
Wouldn't a better idea be to use the heat energy to charge batteries or even do similar with exhaust heat
It would work in an electric car too. It could take heat from the motors and electronics and transfer the heat to the batteries to increase cold weather range.
What happen in the winter ? The engine never get to temp°.... or what ?
But the heat needs to be transferred from the cylinder walls to atmosphere. Between those there are cylinder block, hoses and the radiator and the coolant only transfers the heat forward. Radiator finally convects the heat to atmosphere and the liquid doesn't affect the efficiency of the radiator so much. It's still just aluminum
DRIVETRIBE have done a carwow by changing the thumbnail at least three times 😮
I wasn’t patient enough to watch this whole thing. There’s a reason engine cooling technology hasn’t changed, it doesn’t need to because it already works. Racing situations aside, car engine cooling is as efficient as it needs to be for the masses.
The problem with graphene is that it is abrasive. So while it will cool more efficiently, it will eat your engine from the inside.
graphene only conducts heat in one plane tho.
This reminds me of the revolutionary coolant gm had. Except it wasn't all that great after it started breaking down and clogging everything
I don't know for sure, but if this is sponsored content (or in a grey area), remember the UK is particularly brutal about untagged ads. If not, then carry on.
How would this work in a diesel and what’s is the life time of this fluid . And will u need a filter
The design of the front end of road going cars isn't going to change all that much, Pedestrian safety regulations will prevent a bunch of the changes Mike mentioned.
I imagine an air to water intercooler would benefit greatly from this.
My first thought of watching this was when will the coolant come to PC water-cooling. Then I remembered Linus already got that lol.
This is really interesting. It could revolutionize everything. There is so much potential here.
Of course hotter combustion chamber temps lead to higher NOx emissions. Not knocks NOx, oxides of nitrogen. The acid rain chemical
first model cars now graphene - new subscriber acquired...
Who approved this thumbnail? It doesn't make sense it and it's horrible