ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2024
- After playing an extensive amount of Legend of the Five Rings, we are ready to talk seriously about who should play this game. Also - new Netrunner Core! New Netrunner Core!
Main Topic: 14:56
Answers & Questions: 1:07:51
If you have any questions for us, leave us a comment below, or with #askcovenant on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
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14:50 Actual start of discussion about L5R
This is also in the description of the video for future reference!
Thank you guys for an insightful discussion of L5R! It's been quite interesting to see how your opinions of the game develop over time. Personally I share a lot of your feelings about the game (a boardgame-like experience, enjoy the process type of a game etc) and I'm curious to see how well it translates to the tournament environment. Our local ex-Conquest LCG community has been enjoying (proxy) L5R so far.
Also, sooo good to see you back on the screen. This adds much value to the content.
And for the question you asked at the end: I host a lot of boardgame nights and I believe that you have to match the players with the game for maximum enjoyment. Therefore, sometimes games are sitting on the shelf, because they are awaiting the right type (and number) of players.
Keep up your good work!
Big thumbs up for the return to video!
So happy to see Steven is excited about Netrunner again. I am always watching the older videos you guys created with my wife. Looking forward to more Netrunner content to come.
Watching the Netrunner discussion for the first time in 2019 is painful.
EDIT: Is there a 2019 follow up of this? What are your thoughts about L5R now?
It's so good to be able to see you again!!
Watching this video in Dec ‘18, it breaks my heart when they are talking about ANRs potential...
Thumbs up for reminding everyone, in video, that you sell this game. For what it's worth it makes it easier, for me at least, to not have that detract from your opinions on the game and it is just a move I respect. Thanks for the great content!
Also, if possible, please stick to the video format for The Covenant Cast. In my opinion it is way better than the audio only format.
I personally liked this game.. last version of L5R, my first clan was Lion, then Pheonix, Mantis, then became interested in the Scorpion.. in the LCG version, I started with Lion which I LOVE oh so very much.. and starting to see how truly nasty the Scorpion is..
I did not think it was too complicated at all. I am a retired mtg player, and I felt that it was right up my alley. This game is a hit! I loved the experience this game brought, both the flavor and the gameplay. Highly recommend this game !!
Good to know and glad that you are enjoying it!
Ok, I am back again, comment on a different video from Covenant. Good work guys, I appreciate the effort and the quality in the videos.
On the point of the "Imperial Favor", you are so right.
After buying 3 cores, building 2 full decks (Phoenix and Scorpion) and playing a number of practice games and playing a couple of ACTUAL games, two things that I would not want to fight for are the Imperial Favor and the Void Ring. Fighting for the Air Ring (as the attacker) directly contributes to a victory condition. Fighting for the Fire Ring (as the attacker) is fighting for a victory condition indirectly. Fighting for the earth ring, gives you an extra card, and takes one from the opponent...cute, but not all that. Fighting for the Water Ring, gives me a bow/stand to a character. Bowing a courtier/shugenja does not completely remove it from the next combat because many of those actions do not require participation or "being ready/standing". So, it is not really worth fighting hard for, unless you are bowing a "bushi".
But Void...causes your opponent to waste one "fate". So, you are fighting for removing one of your opponent's "fate"...there are better ways to get your opponent to waste "fate". "Assassinate" trades three honor for a two fate character, not counting attachments on that character. "Pacification" (Phoenix Condition) on a character with a "-" [dash] diplomacy stat causes your opponent to have wasted the "casting" cost of that character, plus attachments, plus extra "fate" placed on that character. But even if you put "Pacification" on a champion, you have now restricted that character you half the conflicts (and possibly only one of those). Champions cost 5 "fate" out of the gate. My 2 "fate" in "Pacification" is all that and a side of guacamole. But you can add the "text blanking spell" to that and the list would go on. The Void ring should be MORE! It is supposed to be a flipping magical ring that is tuned to the nature of the Rokugan Universe.
To that I add, the Imperial Favor...fighting for an additional "+1" to martial/diplomacy. You guys are right, it is a "win more" condition. Ties go to the attacker, so if I am the defender, I have to already be "winning". With the rare occasion where the "+1" gives you the defense win or tie as attacker, "Congrats...you got lucky" but the other 80%+ cases you would lose anyways. If the Imperial favor was "+/- 2 fate/honor for you/opponent/character", on the other hand. Hell, what if the void ring allowed you to refill a province "face up" during the next "Dynasty" Phase. You could buy an additional person. That could be worth fighting for!!
So, it feels like there are two places in this new L5R where FFG was, for lack of a better word, lazy.
But I have hope...
18:20 Yeah from the Core Set, Phoenix Clan wasn't there yet but they get very resourceful on expansions.
I watched a 2019 L5R LCG tournament (it's here on YT) and, out of the 64 participants, the two finalists were playing Phoenix. Of course that goes for the skill of the players (they're not "OP" compared to other clans), but yeah, Phoenix eventually got there =)
Good point guys. Why does every freaking card game have to be this competitive, overwrought, “let’s take this way too seriously ,” affair. Is it a foregone conclusion before the game is even made that this will be the case? I assume it’s monetary/profit reasons? When I saw the game played, I had the same impression, it feels like a board game and should be treated as such. When you want more variety, you buy an “expansion,” for the game. I would liked to have seen this game (or a game with CCG mechanics) but in something more akin to a “Dominion” format. Does such a game exist?
Fair review! As you guys didn't really seem that interested in competitive L5R, I'm wondering if you will be covering worlds and other tournaments?
We will be at Worlds, and probably just playing casually. It is likely that we will cover the Finals!
that controller analogy is spot on
In response to your question, the #1 reason some games don't make it to the table anymore is the complexity of the rules. Having to re-read the rules before (or even worse - during) a game night is an instant deal breaker. These days, my gaming group favours accessibility over deep strategy.
#AskCovenant So L5R is requiring us to buy 3 cores. Which means 3 sets of tokens, dials, rings, etc. Most of which won't be used. Do you think it would be more profitable and draw in more people if FFG released a second product that was only the cards from the core set and left out the cardboard? Less weight, smaller box, and they could sell it for $5-15 less than the standard core box. That way we could get into the competitive scene for under $100?
Great question.
FFG will never release a product that undermines their core gaming product
For 3 core sets, you get 7 full playable decks. Look a magic. if you buy 7 intro decks, whic are only semi playable, it would cost more.
The biggest reason that I don't get a game on the table is if I cannot conceptualize watt the game is wanting to doing theme-wise I can deal with complexity as long as I understand why I'm doing something instead of just doing it. The theme has to be appealing for me.
A thoroughly enjoyable show. Loved the discussion, and thank you very much for the entertainment. I would also like to give you guys props (perhaps a little ashamedly!) for putting the 'Main Topic' link down in the description. Having said that I'm certainly more inclined to watch through from the beginning in the future. As an older L5R player I personally love what FFG have accomplished... though I also have similar reservations about the Imperial Favour. Though as you guys also mentioned, I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens with the honour win/loss conditions in the future. Cheers!
Thank you for the shout! Now you have to catch up on the previous 27 episodes, right?!
Err... yes! Totally. Though it will be some good viewing if this is any indication :D
Great video. I demo’d the game @Gencon 2018. I’ve played a few games online. It’s early for me but all signs point to me wanting to play more / invest more. I’m from a medium to heavy weight board game background. The only card LCG I’ve played prior to L5R is Arkham Horror LCG.
My biggest concern as an old school L5R player has to do with honor, from the point of the honorable clans (Crane, Phoenix, etc). It feels very un-thematic for Crane to be playing in a dishonorable fashion, whether that be from playing assassination cards and losing honor, splashing for dishonor cards from, say, scorpion, or losing honor from duels. In fact, the biggest feel bad for me is that Crane, who's nickname in the original game was 'The Imperial Kneepads", has to potentially be losing honor when dueling. Dueling and honor running is their core identity, and it just feels very bad from my limited experience. I hope FFG can address my concerns in future expansion packs.
Wesu Maru Yeah. I agree. Love the game, but compaird to the old game it is a lot harder to play for honor/disshoner.
Really looking forward to the upcoming cast covering the new netrunner. In answer to question "with all the existing product for anr how does one enter into game quickly" ffg could consider making a jumpstart kit to compliment the core 2.0. Something that helps to compliment the different ids pulling from existing legal content but not give you everything and also gives the target scope (suggested strategies) of the existing data packs and deluxe boxes. For people like me spend time enjoying the cards and deck building, this would compliment core 2.0 well. Also this is just a thought. The world champ decks feel counter productive to getting a player into the world and the amount of content feels overwhelming.
Re: the parallel between L5R's many phases and boardgames. There are phaseless (or near phaseless) boardgames out there and I always appreciate them. It's common with lighter games like Imhotep & Carcassonne, but I'd like to call out Hansa Teutonica as a game with a simple structure, great depth, and high interactivity. And it has no phases. It uses action points like Netrunner and there are only ever 5 options for each action.
Great video guys! I love that video is back! It really makes me feel like I'm a part of the Roundtable. (or square table in your case) The #1 reason why games don't hit the table as much as I would like is the lack of time. I also have Young kids so I also don't get to choose the games I want to play but I'm a patient man ( but there is a limit to how much whip cream in the face I can take ) and I know that will change in time.
#AskCovenant The number one thing that keeps me from getting a game on the table is the mood of the room. Sometimes even though you may have a group that likes playing a type of game, they may be feeling something else. Much as you may play a thousand games of Destiny, but that day you may just want to X-Wing. As a host I try to discern what everyone is feeling and make the choice according to the desires of my table.
Im all in! I've got 3 cores coming and i vow to buy every expansion. After about 2 cores 3 deluxes expansions and a few cycles i dripped out of netrunner about the time the drafts came out i just didnt see buying more.
But l5r to me seems alot more potential considering all the different mechanics in the game from holdings strongholds conflict deck dystany decks role cards honor and dishonor ect. I'll be honest ffg has their work cut out for em. Its alot of potential. The game could be tweaked in soooo many ways so many outlets.
the "honor win" mechanic is a problem within the scenario itself, and cause of most of the hatred against the Crane Clan, the Lion, the Crab and the Unicorn hate them because they completely avoid battle and still win by having someone at the court whispering at the Emperor's ears... hence why whenever an Emperor that didn't like the Crane arose the other Clans tried to erradicate it from existence (moment when the Kakita and Daidoji remember to Rokugan that they exist)
I really liked this game as a ccg. And was skeptical of the bew lcg. But once I started playing it, i became instantly addicted. It was great. I love the fact that you have to think about every move. It's almost like chess in that way. My only real complaint is that it's hard to find people in my area that plays. Mostly it's just for events but not regular play.
I think the main reason for imperial favour is that glory doesn't do anything if the character doesn't get honoured and you are paying for that glory with the fate cost of the character.
Steve, what an interesting description of volleyball ) I like the game and you've made great points. To answer your question: I'm really selective of my opponent (or team mate). To really enjoy the game my opponent need to know and respect the theme of the game and care about it. If it's not the case, I'd rather not waste my time.
Watched the video for L5R but was SO pleased to hear you discuss Netrunner. At one point my favourite game of all time that has completely plummeted to nothingness. But now THIS reinvigorated me. I've played some 2.0 (only using cards from the new core) and it WAS Netrunner. Not the Netrunner I first met, because I think we'd all say the original core set was filled with problems. This new Netrunner is better, more interesting and bizarrely more pure. Good gods I am excited! And L5R round the corner? *tips hat to FFG* 🎩
Thank you very much for this in depth and balanced review. Very good discussion indeed. The one point that raises my eyebrow is this reluctance about a game taking 1.5 - 2 hours. I've seen the same argument raised elsewhere and find it strange, as to me 2 hours for a strategy game is pretty standard. Even fast, really.
Thank you for watching! It sounds like L5R would be amazing for you.
#AskCovenant Question: Will Team Covenant be at Worlds this November? This is considering it is non Star Wars that I ask.
Keep up the good work and sorry to constantly be responding, but love you guys, your energy, and what you do for our tabletop community!
New Zealand had an earthquake earlier this year which slightly changed the coastline and did, indeed, create new land by raising the sea bed above sea level.
The biggest barrier for me to getting a game onto the table is the time element. For example, I love games like Eldritch Horror and Game of Thrones: The Board Game, but my friends and I don't always have time for an Eldritch Horror or GoT session. A secondary barrier would be the game itself, meaning if we are playing with new players or non-gamers that we are trying to get into gaming, the games are going to be different than ones we would normally play on a game night with my hardcore gamer friends.
Also, a question! For Steven and Zach, what card from Empire at War are you most excited to play with or have had the most fun with thus far in the early stages of this new meta? #askcovenant
Enjoyed your return to live video guys. I will go all-in on this one and plan to do as much tournament play as is possible. Netrunner is/was a fantastic game but I will not play it competitively as it has degenerated to something not resembling the Netrunner I love.I still have my old collection from the Wizards of the Coast days and I will much rather play that than the LCG of today.
L5R seems to place somewhere between Netrunner / AGoT and Doomtown: Reloaded in complexity, and since Doomtown is my favorite game I will consider L5R to be a nice chance to relax a bit gaming wise.
Looking forward to this one.
Thinking of it as a chance to relax really makes L5R enjoyable in our experience!
#askcovenant What do you think of digital CCGs like The Elder Scrolls: Legends or Eternal?
Great to be able to see you again! Will you keep the video format? I’d love that!
#AskCovenant
TC: Q-What is the #1 thing that keeps you from getting a game to the table?
Me: A-Time. Never enough time for games.
EXAMPLE: Purchased Metroid 2 remake on 3DS at launch on Friday(15 SEP). This is posting @ 0237 on Monday(18 SEP).
*I HAVE YET TO START-UP THE GAME*
Can you guys man another of this video? Catch us up on where things are. New player / interested players what to know :)
Honestly L5R's game state has not changed all that much, but we will certainly look at it Toby! Thanks for commenting!
Team Covenant first off y'all are awesome for commenting on an older video lol.
I guess my questions are more on helping someone like me that is interested in getting in right now. As a destiny player it's pretty easy to show someone what to do. Buy the 2 player starter, a few packs of the most resent set and you are in.
For this it seems like I need a core set or 2 or 3, and all of the packs from the cycles out, ( considering they all have cards for different clans) there are clan packs, that also have non clan specific cards? You have novelas ? You have the fiction pdfs. My head is spinning just writing this :)
Have you seen our L5R Learning Series Toby? We wrote and recorded 8 blogs and 9-ish videos detailing getting into L5R. Even discussing packs, how many cores and deck building guides! goo.gl/gNgybE
Yay video is back! makes the podcast much better :)
Destiny has been my first foray into FFG games. After listening to this show for a while, Steven's love of Netrunner has me excited about trying the game. The revised Core set sounded like a great starting point for a new player. I am confused by your comments that it's not a great starting point for new players, and I'm wondering how you would recommend someone try out Netrunner for the first time, and what would I even buy to start getting into the game? #AskCovenant
L5R is my favorite Card game, and top ten of all games of all time. The art looks good, the story (what I've read) seems good, but I'm very skeptical about this game.
I'll be trying the game, but unless it is a home-run mechanically...well, then I can't see justifying the cost and effort of an LCG.
On that--I've really begun to think that an LCG format is a NEGATIVE, except the case where you are intensely focused on that one game.
Old time fan here watching you guys who were doing vids on Monsterpocalypse.?Have u guys played Mage wars arena and what do u think about the game?
I feel after watching this video and hearing about your dislikes and likes about L5R and net runner you guys may enjoy the game.
I also wonder L5R may have the learning curve that Mage wars arena has in the since it may decrease play time with more experienced players from 3 1/2-4 hours games to 1 1/2 hours and less. Possibly with L5R making matches a lot shorter with the more experienced player.
Pour one out for Monsterpocalypse! We checked out Mage Wars a while back. Great concept.
Great discussion. cant do the L5R though. In too deep with Netrunner and Destiny and heavy euro board games.
#AskCovenant, What's your opinion about L5R cannibalize AGOT LCG or vice-versa?
One thing that comes to mind of all FFG customers is that L5R has many elements imported from previous LCG, most of them belonging to AGOT.
With the licence transition of ASOI&F to CMON and the fact that L5R and AGOT LCG "compete" for the same spot, the same kind of game, what do you expect to see being made from FFG for both these games? Will they fragment the customer-base, cannibalizing eachother? Will FFG end AGOT to provide more resources into L5R? Will FFG end an older LCG (SW LCG) to keep these two up? Or, if it flunks, could L5R be on a potential situation of vanishing from the market again?
I'm very skeptical about L5R. I've played the original back in '97 and I couldn't maintain the game because I was a teenager with no job and could only manage one game and that game was M:TG. But I've played alot of L5R back then and it was one of my fav games.
I look into this game and I don't see L5R as you mention. It's cool to see that people that played the CCG say this game feels like the CCG but not to me. I see too many trinkets, too many gimmicks and little to none backbreaking decisions the old version had.
The CCG was always mentioned as the chess of card games due to its complexity and how penalizing an error could be. People who disliked it say it was due to the "whirlpool effect" and no chance of coming back... well, that's what an error could do in that game. But now it's simplified. Losing a Province is no big deal anymore. Having an Army to play a turn is not a thing anymore. Sequecing plays for getting 5 Rings is not a thing anymore. Honor is not a thing anymore, neither Dishonor. This is a mild version of AGOT LCG with only two conflicts with some Rings in the middle. A few aspects of the original game were ported into this game but the game itself is not L5R.
Nice podcast with great topics as usual. :)
The number one thing that keeps me from getting a game on the table is time. I have a life with a lot of commitments and responsibilities and those often devour my gaming time.
Trent Hamm Right there with you. And in my case I only have mondays to do anything and most shops around me are closed on monday and tues. 😢
20 mins to get to the topic of the video - ouch.
I have a feeling the current Imperial Favor is a patch until they come out with a 2.0 of it. We're still seeing EZMode L5R and a lot of us OG players want to be able to run for honor. :)
I recently got a core set, but opened it to discover that I can't even play the game with a friend. I tried to build the "small" example decks according to the rules, and there still aren't enough cards. I called them up and the lady was very rude. I don't get this company. I was just trying to play a casual game. The core set is quite misleading. It truly is false advertising. Why is it sold in this manner?
We have been wondering that too David. To make a barebones deck you will need 2 core sets, and if you ever want to compete it goes up to 3.
One think we try and encourage in our store; if you have a friend you can both by a core set and split the factions. So one of you gets Lion, Unicorn and Scorpion. The other person gets Crab, Crane and Dragon. It isn't a great option, especially if you change your mind later, but it is less investment.
I understand why the Netrunner meta needs to be changed but I really don't like the fact that FFG said that Core would always be tournament legal when they announced the rotation and now they are saying that a lot of the Core I already own won't actually be legal. What's next? Will they do the same thing for all the deluxe boxes I own by releasing revised deluxe boxes?
It's frustrating for someone who started collecting Netrunner a few months before the rotation was announced.
I'm fine having cards from the original Core banned. What I don't like is having to rebuy cards I already own in new Revised Core boxes. I got into the game very late and I purposefully did not buy any of the Genesis or Spin cycle because I knew they were going to rotate out. Now all of a sudden cards from those cycles will be rotated back in via the Revised Core set. I have a feeling that they will not be three ofs either requiring you to buy multiple Revised Core sets to have a full playset of cards. But I guess that's putting the cart before the horse as far as my Chicken Little Sky Is Falling attitude goes since we don't know the full contents of the Revised Core yet.
On a side note I HATE what they did with the L5R core set. With Netrunner it was easy to make tournament legal starter decks with just the core set, or at least a full deck. Where with L5R you're forced to buy at least two core sets to even make a full 40/40 card deck. That annoys the hell out of me.
Any chance we could see the rules reference you guys used in your first games of L5R?
Kyle Fisher You can download the RR from FFG's website.
Graham Hindle Much appreciated!
L5R sounds like it has the highest barrier to entry from a rules standpoint of all the existing LCGs. I worry its long-term success is going to be heavily dependent on those interested in the setting willing to put in the time to learn such a complex, nuanced game. That said, I think this game would make for terrible tournament play. I would approach it as a medium weight board game and play it occasionally for the longer, story aspects.
Seems fair. I think L5R sits in quite an interesting place because it has a rather large player base that will move over from the CCG... and quite frankly, the complexity levels are pretty similar. In terms of overall structure the two big differences are the fact that rounds didn't alternate (outside of a battle; one player did everything, then the other and so on. The second point is that you produced from a province at the end of the round, not during the dynasty phase at the start.
Sure there are other changes like fate and the added strategy revolving around keeping character in play longer, but really that was in the original game with gold manipulation and holdings. Likewise honour was there but handled in different ways. I agree it'll be naff it puts some new comers off, but as long as FFG don't really drop the ball and cause the 'meta' to bomb somehow, I wouldn't worry at all about the health of this game.
I played my first game of l5r lcg without knowing the turn structure rules and I found it easy enough to get into. Yes there is a lot to manage but not so much more than say mtg. After a few more games(I've only played the one so far) I'm sure I'll have it down pat. Maybe it's just me but I was even able to assess why I lost.
It's not as complex as netrunner I can say the very least. That's one of the least accessible games I've ever played. L5R is a lot less complex then it's CCG forefather as well, it's just got more layers of strategy, which is a good thing. And it's great in tournament play BECAUSE of the complexity and skill ceiling. Limits variance and means that over time, the better you are the more you win. Unlike games that demand luck And huge investments like mtg.
Covenant Theology Cast!!!!! :D I'll watch it. #thumbsup
Of course, you wouldn't be limited to discussing "covenant theology" but you should cover it ;)
Okay for real, don't do stuff that'll hurt sales ... but if you can figure out how ...
We are already competing with a number of theology casts due to our name, so...
What are your impressions of Steamforged games doing public beta testing for guild ball and asking their player base's opinions? Is it helpful for the players to have direct input in the upkeep of the game than to be behind closed doors? #askcovenant
Added to our list!
should i be getting 3 cores like all the other lcg's?
If you want a full playset, yes. We suggest three, but we are all pretty serious players.
As always, thanks for the insightful and entertaining cast. The reason I don't get a game to the table is simply having people to play with. I'm an international school teacher and I find myself in places that don't have groups that play the games I'm interested in. Case in point, I just moved to Tokyo where I thought I could find a lot of FFG game players but there seems to be no organised play out here, except for X- wing. Hopefully that will change but it certainly has been my number one issue.
#AskCovenent Do you think pre-made "duel decks" might be a useful way to bring new players into Netrunner? Some folks don't have the time necessary to build/test decks, but might have the time to learn one already built--perhaps two decks designed to be balanced against each other?
I was thinking duel decks or faction starters - the latter appears a lot in miniature tabletop wargames.
A faction starter could include all of the faction cards from the core and deluxe boxes, along with the neutrals, 3 copies of each card.
I feel like this review suffers somewhat for lacking anyone who played the L5R CCG. Because fundamentally that's going to be the core audience. Pulling in new folks is definitely an objective, but the foundation is going to be the whackjobs that have a clan mon tattoo - the ones that never truly left Rokugan. They are providing a context to their space that nobody in this vid has tapped into, and I think that that's a HUGE piece of what gives L5R its magic.
It would have been nice to have a classic L5R player, for sure.
I prefer watching to just listening. Keep the camera.
#askcovenant How do you see augmented reality games changing the landscape of tabletop and card games? You can see an example of what I mean in Apple's latest Keynote speech.
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