I personally think the idea of the “On-the-fly upgrade” was fantastic but implemented the wrong way. There could’ve been a dormant Cyberman factory or something in the planet that every time one was defeated would patch out what killed the last one.
@Seansilv25 the Borg are what they Cybermen are here, instant perfect adaptation on the fly for every single unit. And that's exactly why the borg are bullshit, because you always end up needing a Deus Ex Machina to escape from them, e.g. Q whisking you out of trouble. They're just too damn overpowered for any resolution to be satisfying and that's exactly why the Cybermen shouldn't have been made into Borg like this.
The problem with "instant upgrade" Cybermen is - where do they go from here? How are they going to be defeated in any future episodes if the only way to defeat them is to destroy the planet or galaxy?
To be fair, this is set long after the cyber wars, meaning the upgrade bit was likely developed some time during them. Simple solution to your question then is just to set them before that.
I like the idea of them constantly adapting and upgrading, I just think that NiS takes it too far. Like they just feel way too overpowered here, to the point that it would’ve probably been a pain in the ass to write them like this in future stories.
The 'Cybus' Cybermen are still my favourite design of any and all cybermen I've seen. The Lone Cyberman does (IMO) look much more interesting but as that's a unique individual I don't count it.
@@cyberemperor1435 I always thought that the Tomb of the Cybermen design was just about the worst, but I'd genuinely like you to tell me what you like so much about it
@@volnartheunforgiving3952Same, I was never too big on the Moonbase/Tomb Cyberman design. I think for me it was the hands, the whole 3 digit hand thing took away from the idea that Cybermen were originally human.
3:51 Have we ever seen a TV Doctor Who story set IN the Cyber Wars? It always seems like it's either shortly before (such as the Earthshock Cybermen trying to stop a treaty against them) or shortly after them (such as Ascension of the Cybermen which definitely wasted the concept or Revenge of the Cybermen).
It seems humanity in Doctor Who is always going to war to with one species or another like The Daleks, Cybermen, Sontarans etc. It's hard to keep track of which war happened in what year, like how can humanity go to war with the Daleks and not have the Cybermen also get involved?
@@maldon3659It makes sense Considering how many invasions are yearly? Makes you wonder where the future doctor is Is he dead is he the valley yard is he the curator
I love how the Doctor's intelligence is displayed by him knowing before hand that even if he had won the cyber Doctor wouldn't stick to their agreement in regards to what the winner's prise is.
I think my main issue with this episode was that it was obviously meant to be a 2 parter. And instead of the second part, they did the whole “abandon planet” concept. I really wish their had been a smarter way to end the story but it probably needed another part. And tbh I could have gone without the Cold War story to make room for it.
These Cybermen did feel unstoppable but this story didn’t work. If it was a 2 parter it could’ve I think. Plus the “I just feel sorry for the poor guy who’s gotta press the button” felt wasted since the doctor didn’t interact with him. Shouldn’t have been Clara cuz those 2 got a lot of interesting stuff in common there.
I think most of the upgrading makes sense. They're dealing mostly with energy weapons, and so they could have systems in place to dissipate the energy, and the upgrade process is them adapting to different types of energy needing to be dispersed and neutralised
I think what makes the Cybermens new look worse is the fact that they can remove their limbs and twist their heads all the way around which makes them even more inhuman
To be fair, the Cybusmen are literally human brains in a mechanical body. And I do like the overall design of these Cybermen, I'm still a much bigger fan of the classic Cybermen.
With the cybermen constantly upgrading, I would have their design constantly changing with the actual outfits having modular components so different cyberman upgrades would be noticeable but not obnoxiously so.
I love this episode. Seeing the Cybermen being these unstoppable powerhouses, with super speed, detachable limbs, and hive-mind adaptive tech, made them insanely scary in this episode. They were able to become immune to a gun that was one-shotting them earlier. Not to mention that with the Cybermites they can now hack the human mind directly without conversion, or a strange earpiece. Having them be defeated via planetary destruction was so badass! It’s a shame that these powers seem to be exclusive to this episode sadly. They become more normal in future appearances. (Aside from flying and cyber-rain) With that being said, I didn't get the feeling that these Cybermen were people, despite the episode saying that the Cybermen were kidnapping and converting people at the amusement park. The hardest thing about writing Cybermen is that despite being people, they are supposed to be lifeless and void of emotion. I think the major difference is that the Cybus Cybermen still retained some memory of who they were, but had thier emotions under control so they wouldn't snap. In Nightmare in Silver, aside from the Cyberplanner, all the Cybermen talk in generic robot language. There's no humanity to them. Sadly this seems to have been the norm until the Lone Cyberman. Here's hoping he get a proper combination of Cybermen which has both humanity, and a range of abilities as seen here.
Nah these abilities are too broken to consistently write good stories for. How would they be able to defeat them if theyre like this all the time? Just blow up every single planet you encounter them on? Its just too much, and it'd be a pain in the ass to write them like that in future episodes.
every time I saw the cybermen immediately upgrade and be so overpowered all I was thinking was how little the protagonists stand a chance and therefore the solution they must eventually come up with with either be ridiculous or cheap. Blowing them up with a convenient nuke they just had for some reason felt very cheap.
Yeah, and if the cybermen had stayed this OP it would have objectively ruined them forever because they can't be defeated in like any story other than this
I feel like the things that's so off about these cybermen is all the blue lights. Like, they have their arc reactors, Mr. Clever has those blinking lights on his face. What's the point? I don't get why modern designs put neon lights on everything. It seems so strange. Like this is their powersource. But they aren't robots, they're humans. The human flesh inside is their power source.
I agree. The cybus cybermen were industrial in design, and these were more digital or space age. I feel like designers for various things swap the two aesthetics sometimes when it's a bad move
I actually really liked the idea of the Cybermen in this episode. I think a way to make the upgrading make more sense would be to have it so the Cybermites are the ones that are constantly upgrading the ones on the battlefield. But I really liked the constantly upgrading enemy because they were like a disease. If you don’t kill all of them at once the remaining ones just evolve to become resistant to what killed them before and multiply even further and they can just sweep across a population like an epidemic. It made me think of antibiotic resistant bacterial strains. I found them much more intimidating than Tennant era Cybermen since their legacy is always just being the losing side in a war of 4 vs 5 million lol. But these Cybermen seem like they could actually stand up to Daleks.
the cybermen get even worse when they start flying in S8, like they're fucking iron man. moffat did the cybermen so dirty, but he semi redeemed himself with the masterful world enough and time two parter.
If the adaptation capabilities of the Cybermen had been tweaked to work against the last tactic or few used against them, that could have showcased the power while not making them so completely overpowered. Play to the idea of developing the punishment platoon by them using what resources they have to keep the Cybermen on their toes and using tools as the upgrades to counter them are cycled out.
I think them constantly upgrading does raise the stakes, but makes it feel a little *too* hopeless - we never really have a chance to believe that the other side can actually win, so we can't really get that interested in the story (if that makes sense).
It does. If it's too hopeless for the good guys, you become disconnected, because you know they're going to win anyway only now there is no way to resolve it in a satisfying manner
I actually really liked this episode. To me it made the Cybermen feel like more than just a jumpscare, which is all i felt they were in nuwho so far. The fact that they could upgrade on the fly made them unpredictable and the idea of fighting something that can immediately rewrite its coding to bypass any weakness is frankly terrifying to me. Because of this it created a scenario in which every victory was followed by an immediate loss which really hails to "the art of war" knowing yourself and your enemy will lead you to victory. Just knowing yourself but not the enemy will lead you equally to victory then immediate loss. It was a case in the end over whether the doctor could work out the cybercontroller before it figured him out. The cyber controller made a great adversary and i really enjoyed the battle of wits between the two. I also think this was the starting point for Clara's character arc with 12, how much like the doctor she becomes and how dangerous their relationship is towards the end. Their Duty of Care to eachother started the moment they met, they were destined to let that Duty of Care become the end all be all of the universe.
These things are good in theory. In the episode the unbeatable nature of the cybermen makes this version of them just about unusable as antagonists and the way it's executed doesn't totally make sense and undermines the human aspect and body horror and stuff that's the whole point of the cybermen. Mr. Clever would be fun in a vacuum, but he acts nothing like any cyberman and it makes no sense. He's also defeated in weird ways, like the cyberman weakness to gold being utterly misinterpreted and made into SOMEHOW being about his code and temporarily stunning him, and the metal built into the Doctor's face just sort of deleted from existence magically with a simple zap
I really can't stand this episode The Cybermen design is awful. They're just full on robots at this point taking away any scary factors. And making them overpowered doesn't help. The whole super speed scene was stupid. They should had won with that ability alone. The 2 kids are also awful. Don't know if it was the actors or the direction but they are insufferable. Actually majority of kids characters in Moffat's run are awful. There's these 2, the 1 girl from Kill The Moon and the entire class in Forest of the Night
@@notapplicable6985 No, they were huge step towards being robotic compared to classic rebut it was human, and Davies showed in when Tennant and Mrs Moore open one, and it speaks about how it is in pain, also the whole episode is about converting humans, Parallel Jackie was converted and Rose + Pete went inside the factory, even in doomsday we see people get converted like Yvonne Hartman
New Who never established the Mondas Cybermen in the same way they did the Daleks, Silurians, etc. There's a huge disconnect between these Cybermen and the ones we've seen until this point.
I’m not gonna watch the video yet, but what I’ll say is, you can’t have the Cybermen power scaled to one of them walking as if time is frozen, and then introduce an army which never does the exact same thing and instantly win. The stakes are immediately unbelievable and the resolution is invalid. Gaiman would’ve been better served treating this as his “Dalek” with a singular, evolved cyberman (which could infect the doctors mind) than go for this brainless spectacle.
I guess I've always been more partial to the Daleks. Not that there haven't been some decent Cyberman stories. This one, though...seems like another example of what we've seen a lot of in 21st century WHO: great idea killed by so-so execution.
The 'constantly upgrading technology' idea is almost perfect. But it should have to be the same as tech is in reality, instead of simply doing it without any kind of resource requirement, it should be something that gets folded into the upgrade process for the next batch. You've got a big fancy gun that kills them easily? Great... until they get your squadmate and upgrade them and now you've got a Cyberman that is immune to it, and know every one made from then on will be as well. It also adds stakes in that you know any good solution is only going to work so many times as long as it's something that can be resisted.
The only thing I don't like about these new Cyber designs is that they look very Plastic and in turn very light like the actual suits are. The paint doesn't make them look metallic. The Cybus design didn't really look metal most of the time either, more like foam, but they did look weighty and heavy. I also can't really stand the new voice. While the Cybus voice wasn't the best either, it still worked to make each Cyberman feel like an individual unit. The new voice feels cold and like they have no intelligence, which doesn't help that in every appearance since they'd been the underlings of the Master
Ive never hated the 2013 Cybermam design but it would have been nice to see the classic designs slowy evolve into it. Say instead of three Cybus desings in the museum having an Earthshock and Invasion Cybermen in the museum coming to life and slowly converting the soldiers with each conversion getting more and more high tech.
To fix the cybermens design.. I would make their limbs a bit bulkier.. and kept the bracers from the arms and legs like seen on the head.. and on the previous design.. and I don’t hate the blue core.. if anything it kinda makes sense- and I would’ve made the month similar to the previous Cybermen.. But hey- at the end of the day.. at least they’re not the time lord Cybermen! Ugh…
Apparently, the Clara in this episode was supposed to be the Victorian era version from the Snowmen Christmas special and the children from that episode were supposed to be there in place of Angie and Artie but it was changed after Moffat decided to have multiple versions of Clara
I don't *hate* this story, it's reasonably competently written and shot, but the whole thing with the Cybermen is that there were tradeoffs to their pseudo-unstoppability. They were slow, not indestructible, weren't particularly mobile. I didn't like it when the Cybermen could fly in The Doctor Falls, and I don't like how OP the Cybermen were here.
There’s a bit that seems to be hinting at something that ultimately doesn’t pay off. It’s noted that the Doctor removing evidence of himself has created an evidence from absence of evidence situation, the Cybermen using this absence to get intel on him.
I think the upgrading is a very good idea and the Cyberman should become more powerful than the Daleks, because they can adept and improve. The Daleks cant because every "upgrade" or change would make them unpure or some other bullshit, because they already think they are perfect.
I’m not a fan of the episode as a whole but with the cybermen being my favourite dr who villain I love the idea of entire episode be centred around them bc at this point there really hadn’t been one since the best cyber man story in the show that being 2006s rise of cybermen/age of steal (as an extra note this episode introduced my favourite cyberman design)
Harbo, I always enjoy watching your videos, and I likely will as long as your continue making them, however long that will be. You usually articulate your points well.
This episode was the one I had looked forward to a lot when series 7b was airing. Neil Gaiman at the time was an unknown to me but I knew of him and how well his work was received. Seeing the episode is a bit weird. The aspect I don't like most about these new Cybermen is how they still move like robots even in super sleek new bodies. I kinda wish they'd stop with the robot walking, they're humans inside machines, show some personality in their movement. Using an example of Ashad, that's a Cyberman with personality, not just in looks, but movment. The constantly adapting and upgrading I don't mind but I think it should've been used more sparingly. For example, a few Cybermen die from the laser blasts, Cybermen touch the corpse download and update, it would give reason to try and destroy everything of a Cyberman, any corpse left behind could've been used against them.
I honestly love this episode with the Cybermen. My personal favourite. The cybermen look cool if only we could see some sort of body horror. Mr. Clever (cyber planner) and the Doctor battling for the Doctor’s mind for the fate of either halting the Cybermen or letting the Cybermen flourish and let loose and convert the universe and Matt looks like he’s having fun playing two characters in many scenes and I like the idea a Cybermen sort of tech latching onto the Doctor’s mind like a leach sucking blood from the skin and it’s just fun watching that happen. Especially in the Doctor’s mind scape. Clara is a good leader to distract the Cybermen for the Doctor’s time. And then there’s the side characters which they seem good (other than the nerdy guy.
I just didn’t get how a software upgrade could make an energy blast do nothing, it would make sense if the Cybermen would notice a flaw and the factory would start building a new version. Cybermen 1.1 with better shielding technology etc.
i really liked this episode but it was pretty clear that it needed WAY more time to really be good. the constant upgrades thing was a good idea but it didn't quite work. should have been a 2 parter
it's kinda cool some cybus cybermen were lying around , I imagine the cybus boys met the silver nemesis cybermen and joined technology, I do wander how that meeting went
The Cybermen were too overpowered. And there was a member of the platoon who had been told stories about them as a child. Him being Alfie was a question some of us have had. Also I could see Artie's sister marrying Porridge. It sounds cringy but it works
To an extent, you have to understand that a cyberwar episode would cost a ton in the effects budget. To do it right, you're almost talking feature film money. We're never going to get that as a normal episode, perhaps a christmas special series sometime.
I don't actually think this would work as a Dalek story. The Daleks work best when it's a single Dalek (or a small number) vs a horde, because it highlights just how powerful they are. In fact, if you could somehow tweak the plot to be about the Cybermen having a prisoner, and that prisoner being a Dalek, which then ends up killing all the Cybermen, that would have been amazing.
These Cybermen felt way too much like robots. They’re fixed in Dark Water/Death in Heaven by keeping the new designs and giving them some new features, but it’s toned down heavily compared to this episode.
And actually I completely disagree with your problems with their design, where you say they're too removed from their humanity and organicness was actually a problem I've always had with the cybus cybermen, and this design fixed that in my eyes, being a lot sleeker and less industrial, and moving and walking more like people. They're way creepier imo
And their faces feel a lot closer to the classic cybermen which always had a creepy blankness to them that I always felt was missing from the cybus design
Thoughts before the video: I used to really dislike this episode but on rewatch I found that I really enjoyed it and liked porridge and the cyber planner, the kids aren't even in it for that long
I wasn’t convinced with Warwick Davis as Porridge,he was more Ready Brek in my opinion 😂 Why did David Tennant’s and especially Matt Smith’s performance’s have to be so large❗️ They made Laurence Olivier’s performance in Henry the V seem understated 😳 Eccleston and Capaldi got the balance right , so would have Jodie Whittaker if her scripts weren’t such trash. I’d be very unhappy if I were her.You can’t polish 💩’s however good an actor you are and Whittaker is a great actor !😊 I like a more serious doctor, Hartnell Pertwee Colin Baker Eccleston Capaldi The war Doctor Same with the villains Yup I’m a miserable sod 😂 I don’t want my doctor as a good version of Pennywise 😂😅
The real reason people don't like the Series 7 Cyberman design is that their suits weren't chrome-finished. They are virtually identical to Cyber Warriors but the latter is chromed. It's subconscious, but they didn't look real anymore.
I have a biased reason to hate this episode because it is the one that introduced the Cyberman redesign. I have never liked this design and it annoys me so much how it's never fully gone away. Even the CyberMasters in the Power of the Doctor have key elements of this design. Although the darker colour makes them look a lot better.
It's "excellent" to see a giant army? I see what you did there. A Cybermen episode written by Neil Gaiman - that should have been a guaranteed recipe for success. Alas, I've always felt a little underwhelmed by it. Although, the Mr. Clever duel is amazing and there are other positives I'd forgotten about. I think it's just unfortunate that the annoying kids overshadow a lot of it in my memory. I suppose they're not as bad as the brat that tags along in Season 8 though. Also, I'll just hit backspace now to erase my clever bit of trivia about The Silver Turk.
7:22 oh. So that's what I found a year or so ago. It was so small. Definitely silver. Minecraft might have made me misjudge their size even if just partially.
If New Earth is the worst Tenth Doctor story, Nightmare in Silver is the worst Eleventh Doctor story. I'd rather have Clara be playing that chess game against herself.
I feel it's so unfair to NewWho to act like they don't get cybermen. Majority of Classic Who stories have them being shit too. Half of y'all wouldn't like Cybermen as much as you do if not for Marc Platt.
Maybe they were better in Classic Who, haven't watched that, but personally the Cybermen are my most hated villain. I don't even know why I hate them, I just do. I get annoyed whenever they show up. BUT there definitely are a few good Cybermen stories like this one or Dark Water/Death in Heaven (if I remember the title correctly) and ofc the S2 finale. Wish I knew why I hate them xD
I like the Cybermen but I dislike how they've been overused. Especially in episodes like the James Corden one where they were ridiculously defeated by "a father's love for his child" which is frankly an embarrassment that's very hard to recover from 😂
i love the episode up until the end which felt too sudden and quickly done so it seems like it needed to be a two parter to have the story done justice.
Whyn I think back to this episode... After seeing an entire Galaxy destroyed, why again was the Doctor destroying his race and planet the greatest war crime in history again?
I don’t like this episode, THE WHOLE THING COULD’VE BEEN STOPPED IN 5s if they activated the nuclear device and teleported everyone out BUT at the same time, the cyber men could’ve wiped everyone out in 5 seconds, that’s why I don’t like them to be TOO OVERPOWERED. But even then you’ve get the annoying children, the name porridge and his reveal, I just don’t like it
![DID IT SUCK? | Doctor Who [NIGHTMARE IN SILVER REVIEW]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ye_0e_X4MvE/mqdefault.jpg)
I personally think the idea of the “On-the-fly upgrade” was fantastic but implemented the wrong way. There could’ve been a dormant Cyberman factory or something in the planet that every time one was defeated would patch out what killed the last one.
Like a neural network thingy that learns from precious ones? That sounds much better.
That does sound cool, but isn’t that almost exactly what the Borg from Star Trek can do?
@@seansilv25 I think with the Borg, it’s exactly what we see with the Cybermen here, something happens, and they immediately adapt to it.
@Seansilv25 the Borg are what they Cybermen are here, instant perfect adaptation on the fly for every single unit. And that's exactly why the borg are bullshit, because you always end up needing a Deus Ex Machina to escape from them, e.g. Q whisking you out of trouble. They're just too damn overpowered for any resolution to be satisfying and that's exactly why the Cybermen shouldn't have been made into Borg like this.
The problem with "instant upgrade" Cybermen is - where do they go from here? How are they going to be defeated in any future episodes if the only way to defeat them is to destroy the planet or galaxy?
Exactly
Still not as bad as regenerating time lord cybermen
To be fair, this is set long after the cyber wars, meaning the upgrade bit was likely developed some time during them. Simple solution to your question then is just to set them before that.
@@vullord666I know you put this 6 months ago but facts
@@vullord666correct ❤
It always really felt to me like the Cybermen in this episode were trying to be the Borg, especially with the whole adapting to weapons thing.
I mean that kind of fits them
The Borg were based on the Cyberman
Well the Borg are better
@@CashelOConnolly 🧢🧢🧢🧢🧢🧢🧢
Actually - this Cyberiad become a MUCH stronger that Borg.
I like the idea of them constantly adapting and upgrading, I just think that NiS takes it too far. Like they just feel way too overpowered here, to the point that it would’ve probably been a pain in the ass to write them like this in future stories.
The 'Cybus' Cybermen are still my favourite design of any and all cybermen I've seen. The Lone Cyberman does (IMO) look much more interesting but as that's a unique individual I don't count it.
I agree, but I, tied with the tomb of the cyber man ones, but the Cyrus industries are great and so is the lone cyberman
@@cyberemperor1435 I always thought that the Tomb of the Cybermen design was just about the worst, but I'd genuinely like you to tell me what you like so much about it
@@volnartheunforgiving3952Same, I was never too big on the Moonbase/Tomb Cyberman design. I think for me it was the hands, the whole 3 digit hand thing took away from the idea that Cybermen were originally human.
3:51 Have we ever seen a TV Doctor Who story set IN the Cyber Wars? It always seems like it's either shortly before (such as the Earthshock Cybermen trying to stop a treaty against them) or shortly after them (such as Ascension of the Cybermen which definitely wasted the concept or Revenge of the Cybermen).
It seems humanity in Doctor Who is always going to war to with one species or another like The Daleks, Cybermen, Sontarans etc. It's hard to keep track of which war happened in what year, like how can humanity go to war with the Daleks and not have the Cybermen also get involved?
@@maldon3659It makes sense Considering how many invasions are yearly?
Makes you wonder where the future doctor is Is he dead is he the valley yard is he the curator
I love how the Doctor's intelligence is displayed by him knowing before hand that even if he had won the cyber Doctor wouldn't stick to their agreement in regards to what the winner's prise is.
I think my main issue with this episode was that it was obviously meant to be a 2 parter. And instead of the second part, they did the whole “abandon planet” concept.
I really wish their had been a smarter way to end the story but it probably needed another part. And tbh I could have gone without the Cold War story to make room for it.
These Cybermen did feel unstoppable but this story didn’t work.
If it was a 2 parter it could’ve I think.
Plus the “I just feel sorry for the poor guy who’s gotta press the button” felt wasted since the doctor didn’t interact with him.
Shouldn’t have been Clara cuz those 2 got a lot of interesting stuff in common there.
We love a bit of Warwick Davis.
I think most of the upgrading makes sense. They're dealing mostly with energy weapons, and so they could have systems in place to dissipate the energy, and the upgrade process is them adapting to different types of energy needing to be dispersed and neutralised
I think what makes the Cybermens new look worse is the fact that they can remove their limbs and twist their heads all the way around which makes them even more inhuman
To be fair, the Cybusmen are literally human brains in a mechanical body. And I do like the overall design of these Cybermen, I'm still a much bigger fan of the classic Cybermen.
Tbf this is the far future.
With the cybermen constantly upgrading, I would have their design constantly changing with the actual outfits having modular components so different cyberman upgrades would be noticeable but not obnoxiously so.
I love this episode.
Seeing the Cybermen being these unstoppable powerhouses, with super speed, detachable limbs, and hive-mind adaptive tech, made them insanely scary in this episode.
They were able to become immune to a gun that was one-shotting them earlier.
Not to mention that with the Cybermites they can now hack the human mind directly without conversion, or a strange earpiece.
Having them be defeated via planetary destruction was so badass!
It’s a shame that these powers seem to be exclusive to this episode sadly.
They become more normal in future appearances. (Aside from flying and cyber-rain)
With that being said, I didn't get the feeling that these Cybermen were people, despite the episode saying that the Cybermen were kidnapping and converting people at the amusement park.
The hardest thing about writing Cybermen is that despite being people, they are supposed to be lifeless and void of emotion.
I think the major difference is that the Cybus Cybermen still retained some memory of who they were, but had thier emotions under control so they wouldn't snap.
In Nightmare in Silver, aside from the Cyberplanner, all the Cybermen talk in generic robot language. There's no humanity to them. Sadly this seems to have been the norm until the Lone Cyberman.
Here's hoping he get a proper combination of Cybermen which has both humanity, and a range of abilities as seen here.
Nah these abilities are too broken to consistently write good stories for. How would they be able to defeat them if theyre like this all the time? Just blow up every single planet you encounter them on? Its just too much, and it'd be a pain in the ass to write them like that in future episodes.
I think it makes them too overpowered, it means they could’ve wiped out the humans in 5 seconds
Cybus cybermen best cybermen
every time I saw the cybermen immediately upgrade and be so overpowered all I was thinking was how little the protagonists stand a chance and therefore the solution they must eventually come up with with either be ridiculous or cheap. Blowing them up with a convenient nuke they just had for some reason felt very cheap.
I mean they had the convenient nuke because they’ve had to do this before
Yeah, and if the cybermen had stayed this OP it would have objectively ruined them forever because they can't be defeated in like any story other than this
I feel like the things that's so off about these cybermen is all the blue lights. Like, they have their arc reactors, Mr. Clever has those blinking lights on his face. What's the point? I don't get why modern designs put neon lights on everything.
It seems so strange. Like this is their powersource. But they aren't robots, they're humans. The human flesh inside is their power source.
I agree. The cybus cybermen were industrial in design, and these were more digital or space age. I feel like designers for various things swap the two aesthetics sometimes when it's a bad move
I actually really liked the idea of the Cybermen in this episode. I think a way to make the upgrading make more sense would be to have it so the Cybermites are the ones that are constantly upgrading the ones on the battlefield. But I really liked the constantly upgrading enemy because they were like a disease. If you don’t kill all of them at once the remaining ones just evolve to become resistant to what killed them before and multiply even further and they can just sweep across a population like an epidemic. It made me think of antibiotic resistant bacterial strains.
I found them much more intimidating than Tennant era Cybermen since their legacy is always just being the losing side in a war of 4 vs 5 million lol. But these Cybermen seem like they could actually stand up to Daleks.
the cybermen get even worse when they start flying in S8, like they're fucking iron man. moffat did the cybermen so dirty, but he semi redeemed himself with the masterful world enough and time two parter.
Yeah, it’s weird that he suddenly came up with a master piece like that
If the adaptation capabilities of the Cybermen had been tweaked to work against the last tactic or few used against them, that could have showcased the power while not making them so completely overpowered. Play to the idea of developing the punishment platoon by them using what resources they have to keep the Cybermen on their toes and using tools as the upgrades to counter them are cycled out.
I think them constantly upgrading does raise the stakes, but makes it feel a little *too* hopeless - we never really have a chance to believe that the other side can actually win, so we can't really get that interested in the story (if that makes sense).
It does. If it's too hopeless for the good guys, you become disconnected, because you know they're going to win anyway only now there is no way to resolve it in a satisfying manner
The only version of the Doctor I wish to see Cyber-converted is that non-canon female Doctor played by Jodie Whittaker
Im really glad the show ended with Peter Capaldi not seein who he regenerated in too
I actually really liked this episode. To me it made the Cybermen feel like more than just a jumpscare, which is all i felt they were in nuwho so far.
The fact that they could upgrade on the fly made them unpredictable and the idea of fighting something that can immediately rewrite its coding to bypass any weakness is frankly terrifying to me.
Because of this it created a scenario in which every victory was followed by an immediate loss which really hails to "the art of war" knowing yourself and your enemy will lead you to victory. Just knowing yourself but not the enemy will lead you equally to victory then immediate loss.
It was a case in the end over whether the doctor could work out the cybercontroller before it figured him out. The cyber controller made a great adversary and i really enjoyed the battle of wits between the two.
I also think this was the starting point for Clara's character arc with 12, how much like the doctor she becomes and how dangerous their relationship is towards the end. Their Duty of Care to eachother started the moment they met, they were destined to let that Duty of Care become the end all be all of the universe.
These things are good in theory. In the episode the unbeatable nature of the cybermen makes this version of them just about unusable as antagonists and the way it's executed doesn't totally make sense and undermines the human aspect and body horror and stuff that's the whole point of the cybermen. Mr. Clever would be fun in a vacuum, but he acts nothing like any cyberman and it makes no sense. He's also defeated in weird ways, like the cyberman weakness to gold being utterly misinterpreted and made into SOMEHOW being about his code and temporarily stunning him, and the metal built into the Doctor's face just sort of deleted from existence magically with a simple zap
I really can't stand this episode
The Cybermen design is awful. They're just full on robots at this point taking away any scary factors. And making them overpowered doesn't help. The whole super speed scene was stupid. They should had won with that ability alone.
The 2 kids are also awful. Don't know if it was the actors or the direction but they are insufferable. Actually majority of kids characters in Moffat's run are awful. There's these 2, the 1 girl from Kill The Moon and the entire class in Forest of the Night
I agree but also they could’ve just nuked the planet and then teleport away with porridge
Wern't they full robots before with the petes world ones?
@@notapplicable6985 No, they were huge step towards being robotic compared to classic rebut it was human, and Davies showed in when Tennant and Mrs Moore open one, and it speaks about how it is in pain, also the whole episode is about converting humans, Parallel Jackie was converted and Rose + Pete went inside the factory, even in doomsday we see people get converted like Yvonne Hartman
New Who never established the Mondas Cybermen in the same way they did the Daleks, Silurians, etc. There's a huge disconnect between these Cybermen and the ones we've seen until this point.
I’m not gonna watch the video yet, but what I’ll say is, you can’t have the Cybermen power scaled to one of them walking as if time is frozen, and then introduce an army which never does the exact same thing and instantly win. The stakes are immediately unbelievable and the resolution is invalid.
Gaiman would’ve been better served treating this as his “Dalek” with a singular, evolved cyberman (which could infect the doctors mind) than go for this brainless spectacle.
I guess I've always been more partial to the Daleks. Not that there haven't been some decent Cyberman stories. This one, though...seems like another example of what we've seen a lot of in 21st century WHO: great idea killed by so-so execution.
The 'constantly upgrading technology' idea is almost perfect. But it should have to be the same as tech is in reality, instead of simply doing it without any kind of resource requirement, it should be something that gets folded into the upgrade process for the next batch. You've got a big fancy gun that kills them easily? Great... until they get your squadmate and upgrade them and now you've got a Cyberman that is immune to it, and know every one made from then on will be as well. It also adds stakes in that you know any good solution is only going to work so many times as long as it's something that can be resisted.
The only thing I don't like about these new Cyber designs is that they look very Plastic and in turn very light like the actual suits are. The paint doesn't make them look metallic. The Cybus design didn't really look metal most of the time either, more like foam, but they did look weighty and heavy. I also can't really stand the new voice. While the Cybus voice wasn't the best either, it still worked to make each Cyberman feel like an individual unit. The new voice feels cold and like they have no intelligence, which doesn't help that in every appearance since they'd been the underlings of the Master
Ive never hated the 2013 Cybermam design but it would have been nice to see the classic designs slowy evolve into it. Say instead of three Cybus desings in the museum having an Earthshock and Invasion Cybermen in the museum coming to life and slowly converting the soldiers with each conversion getting more and more high tech.
To fix the cybermens design.. I would make their limbs a bit bulkier.. and kept the bracers from the arms and legs like seen on the head.. and on the previous design.. and I don’t hate the blue core.. if anything it kinda makes sense- and I would’ve made the month similar to the previous Cybermen..
But hey- at the end of the day.. at least they’re not the time lord Cybermen! Ugh…
Apparently, the Clara in this episode was supposed to be the Victorian era version from the Snowmen Christmas special and the children from that episode were supposed to be there in place of Angie and Artie but it was changed after Moffat decided to have multiple versions of Clara
Lol. I remembered reading somewhere that Gaiman mentioned that one of his biggest regrets is unable to write for an angry scottish Doctor.
say what you want about the design but the voices of the nis cybermen is so good
I don't *hate* this story, it's reasonably competently written and shot, but the whole thing with the Cybermen is that there were tradeoffs to their pseudo-unstoppability. They were slow, not indestructible, weren't particularly mobile. I didn't like it when the Cybermen could fly in The Doctor Falls, and I don't like how OP the Cybermen were here.
There’s a bit that seems to be hinting at something that ultimately doesn’t pay off. It’s noted that the Doctor removing evidence of himself has created an evidence from absence of evidence situation, the Cybermen using this absence to get intel on him.
I think the upgrading is a very good idea and the Cyberman should become more powerful than the Daleks, because they can adept and improve. The Daleks cant because every "upgrade" or change would make them unpure or some other bullshit, because they already think they are perfect.
Gotta say, I never expected Doctor Who to give me Red vs Blue flashbacks.
I’m not a fan of the episode as a whole but with the cybermen being my favourite dr who villain I love the idea of entire episode be centred around them bc at this point there really hadn’t been one since the best cyber man story in the show that being 2006s rise of cybermen/age of steal (as an extra note this episode introduced my favourite cyberman design)
Harbo, I always enjoy watching your videos, and I likely will as long as your continue making them, however long that will be. You usually articulate your points well.
This episode was the one I had looked forward to a lot when series 7b was airing. Neil Gaiman at the time was an unknown to me but I knew of him and how well his work was received.
Seeing the episode is a bit weird. The aspect I don't like most about these new Cybermen is how they still move like robots even in super sleek new bodies. I kinda wish they'd stop with the robot walking, they're humans inside machines, show some personality in their movement. Using an example of Ashad, that's a Cyberman with personality, not just in looks, but movment.
The constantly adapting and upgrading I don't mind but I think it should've been used more sparingly. For example, a few Cybermen die from the laser blasts, Cybermen touch the corpse download and update, it would give reason to try and destroy everything of a Cyberman, any corpse left behind could've been used against them.
I loved the Upgrade In Progress. Made the Cybermen so much more dangerous. I wish they could have fleshed that out more
Say what you will about how the episode turned out, but I love me some Warwick Davies.
i wish that the cyberplaner/mr cleaver was less emotional (can fake emotion to trick people) and more logical like the cybermen are meant to be
Cybermen? In "Nightmare in Silver" they ate Cyber-Borg
I honestly love this episode with the Cybermen. My personal favourite.
The cybermen look cool if only we could see some sort of body horror. Mr. Clever (cyber planner) and the Doctor battling for the Doctor’s mind for the fate of either halting the Cybermen or letting the Cybermen flourish and let loose and convert the universe and Matt looks like he’s having fun playing two characters in many scenes and I like the idea a Cybermen sort of tech latching onto the Doctor’s mind like a leach sucking blood from the skin and it’s just fun watching that happen. Especially in the Doctor’s mind scape. Clara is a good leader to distract the Cybermen for the Doctor’s time. And then there’s the side characters which they seem good (other than the nerdy guy.
Patreon shilling
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I just didn’t get how a software upgrade could make an energy blast do nothing, it would make sense if the Cybermen would notice a flaw and the factory would start building a new version. Cybermen 1.1 with better shielding technology etc.
i really liked this episode but it was pretty clear that it needed WAY more time to really be good. the constant upgrades thing was a good idea but it didn't quite work. should have been a 2 parter
Hote take: The Cybermens and Mr. Clever should've been the main villains of Series 7 and had a two parter (hell a three-parter like Series 3)
Yeah, I like this episode. There' SO MUCH PACKED in it world-wise that I always though that was a two-parter
it's kinda cool some cybus cybermen were lying around , I imagine the cybus boys met the silver nemesis cybermen and joined technology, I do wander how that meeting went
Asylum of the Cybermen and Nightmare in Bronze sound very cool, to be fair.
Warwick Davis is awesome. He makes the episode a lot better.
Also, Neil Gaiman wrote this to be a 2 parter
This episode is seriously tragic
The Cybermen were too overpowered. And there was a member of the platoon who had been told stories about them as a child. Him being Alfie was a question some of us have had. Also I could see Artie's sister marrying Porridge. It sounds cringy but it works
To an extent, you have to understand that a cyberwar episode would cost a ton in the effects budget. To do it right, you're almost talking feature film money. We're never going to get that as a normal episode, perhaps a christmas special series sometime.
I don't actually think this would work as a Dalek story. The Daleks work best when it's a single Dalek (or a small number) vs a horde, because it highlights just how powerful they are.
In fact, if you could somehow tweak the plot to be about the Cybermen having a prisoner, and that prisoner being a Dalek, which then ends up killing all the Cybermen, that would have been amazing.
These Cybermen felt way too much like robots. They’re fixed in Dark Water/Death in Heaven by keeping the new designs and giving them some new features, but it’s toned down heavily compared to this episode.
I love the body design for the new Cyberboys, I hate that round head tho
This is one of my favourite episodes I had no idea anyone thought negatively of it
And actually I completely disagree with your problems with their design, where you say they're too removed from their humanity and organicness was actually a problem I've always had with the cybus cybermen, and this design fixed that in my eyes, being a lot sleeker and less industrial, and moving and walking more like people. They're way creepier imo
And their faces feel a lot closer to the classic cybermen which always had a creepy blankness to them that I always felt was missing from the cybus design
Although you're totally right about how they should've swapped asylum of the daleks and this episodes' villians
This episode is good and I enjoy it but the instant upgrading is way too overkill. Otherwise I like it quite a lot.
I watched enough randomly suggested videos, guess it's time to sub.
Good evening to Christopher Eccleston
Thoughts before the video: I used to really dislike this episode but on rewatch I found that I really enjoyed it and liked porridge and the cyber planner, the kids aren't even in it for that long
I wasn’t convinced with Warwick Davis as Porridge,he was more Ready Brek in my opinion 😂
Why did David Tennant’s and especially Matt Smith’s performance’s have to be so large❗️ They made Laurence Olivier’s performance in Henry the V seem understated 😳
Eccleston and Capaldi got the balance right , so would have Jodie Whittaker if her scripts weren’t such trash. I’d be very unhappy if I were her.You can’t polish 💩’s however good an actor you are and Whittaker is a great actor !😊
I like a more serious doctor,
Hartnell
Pertwee
Colin Baker
Eccleston
Capaldi
The war Doctor
Same with the villains
Yup I’m a miserable sod 😂
I don’t want my doctor as a good version of Pennywise 😂😅
Nightmare in Silver was just a big rip-off of the Borg from Star Trek.
Excuse me, but the kids are in privileged positions to play these characters, don't hate on them
Does anyone else get "Best of Both World" vibes from this episode as well?
This has always been my third favourite Matt smith episode
matt smith’s performance is what makes the episode for me
The real reason people don't like the Series 7 Cyberman design is that their suits weren't chrome-finished. They are virtually identical to Cyber Warriors but the latter is chromed. It's subconscious, but they didn't look real anymore.
I would love to see another cyberman vs daleks episode
The best cybermen episode, by law, period.
Smith alone brings this from a three to a seven
I love this Cybermen design!.
There's always that one story that doesn't need to be there. I'd replace this with an extra episode for Time of the Doctor.
I have a biased reason to hate this episode because it is the one that introduced the Cyberman redesign. I have never liked this design and it annoys me so much how it's never fully gone away. Even the CyberMasters in the Power of the Doctor have key elements of this design. Although the darker colour makes them look a lot better.
I enjoyed this the idea of a cyber doctor was a good threat
I don't mind Angie and Artie too much personally. They're alright.
also, that soundtrack
It's "excellent" to see a giant army? I see what you did there.
A Cybermen episode written by Neil Gaiman - that should have been a guaranteed recipe for success. Alas, I've always felt a little underwhelmed by it.
Although, the Mr. Clever duel is amazing and there are other positives I'd forgotten about. I think it's just unfortunate that the annoying kids overshadow a lot of it in my memory.
I suppose they're not as bad as the brat that tags along in Season 8 though.
Also, I'll just hit backspace now to erase my clever bit of trivia about The Silver Turk.
Always good to see s Neil Gaiman story.
This should have been switched with Daleks with Cyberman for these stories
They're my favourite design for the Cybermen.
I don't know what to think of the superspeed one though...
What do you think about The Transformers movies?
7:22 oh. So that's what I found a year or so ago. It was so small. Definitely silver. Minecraft might have made me misjudge their size even if just partially.
Finally a human of quality!
If New Earth is the worst Tenth Doctor story, Nightmare in Silver is the worst Eleventh Doctor story. I'd rather have Clara be playing that chess game against herself.
I feel it's so unfair to NewWho to act like they don't get cybermen.
Majority of Classic Who stories have them being shit too. Half of y'all wouldn't like Cybermen as much as you do if not for Marc Platt.
Remember when they were... mining? Lol
Maybe they were better in Classic Who, haven't watched that, but personally the Cybermen are my most hated villain. I don't even know why I hate them, I just do. I get annoyed whenever they show up. BUT there definitely are a few good Cybermen stories like this one or Dark Water/Death in Heaven (if I remember the title correctly) and ofc the S2 finale. Wish I knew why I hate them xD
I like the Cybermen but I dislike how they've been overused. Especially in episodes like the James Corden one where they were ridiculously defeated by "a father's love for his child" which is frankly an embarrassment that's very hard to recover from 😂
I like the Smith and Cyber Smith parts
I thought those were cool!
Been waiting for this episode 😬😃
Love this episode
im sorry i personally love these cybermen designs
i love the episode up until the end which felt too sudden and quickly done so it seems like it needed to be a two parter to have the story done justice.
Whyn I think back to this episode... After seeing an entire Galaxy destroyed, why again was the Doctor destroying his race and planet the greatest war crime in history again?
I don’t like this episode, THE WHOLE THING COULD’VE BEEN STOPPED IN 5s if they activated the nuclear device and teleported everyone out BUT at the same time, the cyber men could’ve wiped everyone out in 5 seconds, that’s why I don’t like them to be TOO OVERPOWERED.
But even then you’ve get the annoying children, the name porridge and his reveal, I just don’t like it
I thought it was really bad. Matt Smiths performance was fantastic but the rest was a mess.
Always loved this episode