Tim, My wife and I bought a 1978 Whitby 42 for $15k USD back in October. It had been sitting at a dock behind someone's house in Florida since 2001! When I first looked at it, I was ready to take a pass. But the more and more I researched, the better it looked. It was a one owner boat purchased new in Ontario in 1978. The owner was meticulous! I have every piece of documentation, including the original VHF license from Canada, when she motored down the Erie Canal! (Reminded me of your adventure) Currently, the boat is still at the same dock, about two hours drive from our home. I got the Lehman diesel running after a 20+ year hibernation! She runs great! I removed and overhauled the velvet drive transmission after it puked 3 liters of fluid into the bilge. We are getting ready to moter her down the ICW to be closer, as we are preparing for haul out. We are prepping for blue water sailing and ocean crossings! I'll keep you posted... Right before we pulled the trigger, I said, "we aren't getting any younger. Why wait?"
There's a saying in the yard where I winter my boat. "There's nothing more expensive than a free boat". That being said, if you're lucky enough to get a decent one (as I did) is saves you a lot of money to to pay for the necessary items to upgrade and replace.
I'm quite pleased that you pretty much covered what I thought about ultra cheap boats No bad keels, too dodgy, then the deck, after that, it's a judgement call I'm a mechanic, with years of experience in using GRP. I used to make GRP trailers I can weld, and I've spent years on building and construction sites When I see Utubers doing boats up, and they really haven't got a clue, but they do it anyway, it gives me a great amount of hope that I won't have all that much trouble, especially when I see experienced round the world sailors loosing engine power because a rubber diesel pipe is letting air in........... If they can do it like that, then I won't have any problem.......... I wouldn't hesitate to pull an engine out, rebuild it, providing it's worth the effort I've rebuilt motorbike engines You really question your skills when you see 100 MPH on the clock Was that a tapping noise...?
Working on and building shop machines that go over 10k rpm are some clenchy moments. The break-in on those always makes me duck and cover. Almost as scary as building a CNC when you let it off the leash for the first time. (Not that I would ever do a spindle at near lightpseed on a new machine... I ain't that crazy) I'm in the serious thinking about building the whole boat... But the prospect of feature creep and skyrocketing costs have me in a long term planning/re-planning loop. I've always been in the camp of I want everything, and with the rule of Good-Fast-Cheap, I'm always slower than a donkey's ass. Like they say, when you're time ain't worth sh*t, DIY becomes so much more affordable.
DO NOT RE-TIGHTEN STAINLESS STEEL KEEL BOLTS. Stainless Steel stretches and continues to do so during its life. That's why we replace standing rigging. Re-tentening stainless steel keel bolts will stretch them further. They will break given too much load. They should be replaced. Re-tightening them may also cause galling or cold welding of the nut to the bolt. This will give a false impression of the torque of the nut on the threaded rod (or bolt) All modern stainless steel keel bolts are threaded rod with a washer and a nut and lock nut for this reason. Stainless Steel especially 316L has high stretch and low tensile strength. Sail Safe Guys, Ant & Cid.
That's very interesting, I'll need to research this I know. 316 is less brittle but weaker than 304 so what you are saying makes alot of sense. Honestly I don't know why we still use stainless at all it causes. All kinds of problems. The entire Marine industry should move over to grade 5 titanium for all components that don't Require welding. There may be a reasonable argument for carbon fiber chain plates and it seems even. The aluminum chain plates in my boat may be fine. But from what I understand grade 5 titanium lasts forever. Perhaps we are stuck with stainless standing rigging at least for those of us who live in areas with huge temperature swings Dyneema isn't really a viable option.
Umm let's see a fiberglass boat is for sure not 100% rigid and the hull flexes and things work loose over 20 years and you're not supposed to retighten? That conversely you should never retighten rod rigging? Which I'm guessing is sectionally under a greater load. I'm not disagreeing that SS steel does stretch but your position is tenuous at best. Work harding is for sure a big issue people don't understand. I think you overstate the issue.
@@jackwalby6257 rigging definitely l work.hardens little. Bending. An aluminum. Can back and forth until it breaks. It probably equals the crevice Corrosion problems with stainless. With the motion of the boat always rolling, Even when. Not under sail. I was asking a surveyor about this because I have no idea how old. My rigging is, and the boat has always been in fresh water when not on the hard for winter. He said the motion wears out the rigging also not just the salt. My rigging is possibly original from 79 with about half of the year on the hard. So. It's still about 23 years of motion even without the salt if it original so more than twice the useful lifespan even though not shows no visible signs. Of wear. No cracks or broken strands. It looks perfectly fine but it needs to go. He was saying if you start to see broken strands you have waited too long to the point of danger.
@SalingSamantas The thing is you can inspect rigging. It should be done at least every year and before ocean passages. if there is any doubt you change the suspect component. It's designed to take dynamic loads and these loads can be imposed purposefully to gain efficient sail shapes. Keel bolts are like like cylinder head bolts. They are designed to take torsional loads and are torqued in to the correct value to compress keel to boat. Re-tightening them will weaken them, stretch them and impose a load they were only ever designed to take one time.
Been rebuilding Catalina 30s for a few years now Motors are super cheap to rebuild the m25xp is just a Kubota d850 and rebuild kits can be had for 400 - 700 depending on the kit I will say keel smiles 99% of the time are super easy and inexpensive to fix if you do it yourself I finished 5 keel smiles and started a 6th that I will finish when it warms up My turn and run are boats that have been dropped off their stands Watch your compression post stub that's the interesting but doable repair Soft deck Rebed then think long and hard about how you want to fix it Injecting closed cell foam is cheap and fast although you will need a vacuum pump
TLDR: Sailing boats is a lot of fun. So is fixing up boats, sometimes, but it takes away from sailing time. Make sure you're doing what you want to do. I did buy a cheap sailboat once, for $300. An Ericson 29, which was a reasonalble boat. I had been sailing on it a few years prior, and it had been a solid boat. It belonged to an acquaintance at work, and he had left the boat on the hard for a summer while out of the state. When he returned to the boat, he found the interior full of water since water came in from a leaking deck fixture and had no way out. That meant that the engine -- an old atomic 4 - had been underwater. Simple, I thought, get a new engine and clean things up. So I had the boat hauled to my backyard and sailed my smaller boat and then I cleaned and cleaned and cleaned and cleaned. I sanded it and redid this and repaired that. When I got to the point where I started to think about pulling the Atomic 4, I stopped and said to myself "This is miserable. I would rather be sailing with my kids, and this boat is costing me that opportunity." So I called a friend at a boatyard and he came and bought the boat for $1000 -- well, it was in much better shape by this point -- and off it went. I took the money and made a down payment on an ODay 272 and my family went sailing. And never looked back. Since then I have realized that fixing up boats and sailing boats are two different pastimes. I enjoy occasional exposure to the first, but try not to let it become an end in itself. If I'm looking at a boat and I can't safely sail it *right now* then I don't buy it. Keep your priorities straight. If most of your sailing hours are spent with a toolbox, make sure that's what you want to do.
I'm one of those people who bought "the old sailboat". It's still something of an unknown as the marina's haul-out is currently not an option and we don't want to try to take it to another marina until we know it's 'sea-worthy". However, it was my dad's sailboat before he died so there's a lot of sentimental value. I've heard sailing, like motorcycles, is akin to therapy (hopefully not just in cost)... but then she only cost $1500 CAN (like with a free puppy, there will be much more spent, I know). She's a 1981 Newport 28 so there are parts to be found and we aren't afraid of doing our own work. I'd never spend big money on a sailboat. And while we won't be heading to blue water until maybe next winter, we have a busy year ahead learning about our boat and how to sail.
A Newport 28 is a quality boat. Your father would be happy to see you sailing it. As for the blue water, it's not going anyplace. It will be there when you're ready. Restoring the boat is a journey, too. Enjoy it. :-)
I've been a city guy all my life, but I love this channel! My dream is to sail the Caribbean from Yucatan, 🇲🇽 to Cuba, 🇨🇺 and Puerto Rico 🇵🇷 and back again before I leave this planet 😊🎉
I picked up a solid glass '76 40ft ketch for a nominal fee, no working engine, insides all needed replacing. But you know what? I went for it because I can do most of the work myself. Woodworking? No problem. Electrics? 12v/24v is so easy. NMEA2k? Hell yeah all day. Mast was good, sails were serviceable. I can get swageless rigging done at a reasonable price. Only thing it is costing me is a bit of time, and yard fees. I have been working on it for just over a year and it has been customised to how I want it. Only remaining costs for me are replacing the engine, which will cost me £5k and a few NMEA2k gadgets. All in, I will have a lovely ketch that has been customised to my requirements for under £45k all in. I'd struggle to find any deal that would get me exactly what I want for that price.
I did an extensive refit on my cheap boat pretty much everything except the mast hull and drive is new bulkhead deck cores port lights. Hatches electrical plumbing stringers floor and cabin soles even the rudder is new. I greatly appreciate the learning curve and experience I am still Gaining from this refit. I really know my boat. Every detail every inch. BUT once is enough I wouldn't want to do it again. It takes a lot of time and money that could be better spent sailing.
Great to hear your now sailing and the sense of pride you must feel every time the sails fill, i'm at the begining of my journey with a coronet 20 build number 20 and have found much that needs doing but she still makes me smile.
@@shawnbartley9223 well I'm not quite sailing yet still. Going on the project I'm. Hoping for something next summer. To. Finally. Splash again for the first time since the fall of 2020.
@@brownnoise357 I'd love. To hear. All about it. Agreed. Being without a boat is unbearable. Fortunately I've had a smaller MacGregor 21 and I have been able to live on the water all summer since. 2020 and do some. Sailing too. But it's definitely very tight and inconvenient. Still I get to feel. The rolling Waves and . Hear the water Laping. Against the hull. I've got the best neighbors in my marina too. It's been an enjoyable experience and aloud me to continue living this life throughout the refit. Please share When you get back on the water I'll be cheering for you.
well said, a cheap boat that is easy to fix the best bet if sailing is what you want to do, if you want to build your own boat build it, two different choices
So I’m currently in the market for sailboat #4 all were used and all were “cheap” boats. The first one, was a cute little Cal 22 for 3k she wasn’t in too bad of shape, standing rigging was solid, sails were decent, but the woodwork was a royal mess, there was no engine, nor was there any running rigging to speak of. A few months of work (weekends only) and she was good and seaworthy, I already had a little 6hp long shaft I could slap on the bracket and call good ‘nuff. For what she got used for, namely being taking a couple 20 somethings jaunting around Buzzards Bay one or twice a week I was fairly pleased with her. Total refit cost was about 1k, not bad. Boat 2, which was bought while I still owned boat 1 was not so easy. She was a C&C 25 that I picked up for 4k. Which I have to admit I over paid she needed pretty much everything except standing rigging and a mast. Fortunately she was also outboard so no big deal I thought. Sails were rotten, electrical was shot, basically a good hull, with a good deck, a solid mast and decent standing rigging, and not much else, even the rudder was junk! She got a serious makeover, and by the time I was done I could have pretty much just gone ahead and bought a much nicer example of the same boat. But that was a very good learning experience and it got me much more comfortable with working on things I might not have otherwise have tackled. Worked slowly in the yard on “Atropos” and still had “Vagabond” on the mooring to go for the occasional sail on to blow off steam with. A few run ins with a good chop and a wind against the tide coming though Quicks Hole however told me that outboards are probably not the best, could hobby horse so bad the prop could be lifted out of the water which is … less than ideal… Boat 3 was a Catalina 30, I practically stole that boat, they were asking 6k for her and her being an early MK1, I wasn’t expecting much, Craigslist no broker, crap pictures, pick your red flag it was there pretty much. But decided to give them a call anyway and see what was up. And to my surprise she was in fairly good condition. With most of the typical MK1 problems having already been solved. It was fairly apparent that until fairly recently someone had cared quite a deal about her, and there was the paper trail to prove it. The dodger was totaled with the isinglass blown out, the trim was in pretty rough shape and there were some minor bits that were rather conspicuously missing, like the galley table. But she was seaworthy as she was, so 5 days after purchase the delivery trip was done (the other 2 boats having been 1 sold and 2 lost in a terrible divorcing accident by this time) Now me being me I couldn’t let this perfectly serviceable boat go without some fiddling with so new table right off the rip. Then she sprouted a pair of 100w solar panels because well weekending had turned into whole weeks and running the diesel was loud and dead batteries suck. Next she got a second bigger fresh water tank because running out of that also sucks. Then a diesel heater got added because I was living aboard and cold sucks and Maine gets pretty cold. Bermuda became an idea one day towards the end of October a little over a decade ago. Soon she also sprouted a little wind genny because using too much juice. Ended up cruising the east coast, Bahamas and bits of the Caribbean on that boat. So things that would scare me away from the next boat; needing to do any recoring A bad mast Signs of keel issues, or keel damage suggesting a very hard grounding Zincs that are completely corroded away (no desire to deal with replacing a shaft and friends) A completely bad engine or one that has a stupid amount of hours on it Having multiple systems that all need to be replaced.
This was a very informative video! However, nearly all the other DYI sailboat TH-cam channels, tell a story of buying an inexpensive sailboat and then working on it for 2 - 3 years. It would be great to see someone buy a $20,000 and then fix her up in three months.
I'm 73 years old now so I've missed my opportunity. I did sail snipes out of Oakville when I was a teenager so I know what it's like. Life just took me in a different direction. Still, you stir my dreams but that's all they can be now. Thanks for what you do.
@@annhooper726 When poor health steals your strength, there's no amount of positive attitude that can help. My heart went into atrial fib the day after my 60th birthday and I couldn't stay conscious. I've spent a significant portion of the last 6 months in hospitals trying to stay alive. I've now no illusions about being able to circumnavigate solo again. I feel fortunate to have 4 useful hours each day. I can't cruise on that amount of horsepower. Enjoy your good health while you can.
If you sailed out of oakville you’re probably familiar with the Grampian yard. I sail a Walton 37 built by them in 1964. Still going strong. Never getting over the quality of their work.
Greetings from Texas Tim. Been following you for 6 months when caught the sailing bug and I’m 56 so feeling a sense of urgency. You were definitely an influence on me with your go cheap but go now message. I just put contact on an endeavor 32 in Pasadena Maryland currently on the hard for past 2 years. Plan to splash, survey and sea trial in March. Thanks for the encouragement. Happy New Year!
Hi Tim, very good vid, I think you covered the major points very well, I would add, never buy a boat that is in the water make sure you get it lifted out so as to inspect the bottom and keel fully. A friend of mine bought a sailboat for a £1.00 that was in a marina local to me, everything above the waterline looked fine and sounded like a great deal as the seller was retiring from sailing and just wanted rid off it, but my friend had it lifted out found to his horror that the keel was off centre ! had been bent over, then a terrible repair with fibreglass that was peeling off had been attempted ! My friend (who was fairly new to boats) ended up paying a surveyor report to asertain if it was worth trying to repair professionally only to find out it was 4 times more than the boat would be worth! He then had to pay a lot of money to get the boat scrapped and Marina fees due for the time this all took and it ended up costing him over two grand!! The morale of my story is Buyer Beware, if something seems like an incredible deal there's usually a reason for it, which many unscrupulous people won't divulge.
An example of a repaired keel - Sailing UMA. An example of a successful deck recore - Sail Life. Both of those counter examples notwithstanding, I don't want any of that smoke. I reglassed the rudder attachments on a dingy once.
One thing not mentioned. Older boats can have problems getting Insurance. Most if not all Marinas require at the least liability insurance. Check out that before getting your work project.
I sought a moderately priced, well-cared for, high-quality boat, with no red flags in the survey. It took me some time to find her, and I'm glad I went that route. My Tartan 31, even though she is more than 30 years old, was not cheap and she is worth every penny. I've watched too many TH-camrs who, even though they got a boat for super cheap, or even for free, ended up spending much more than I did, and losing a couple of sailing seasons, to go that route. If you have marketable skills, you're better off spending the time it would take to restore the boat working to save the money to buy a boat that won't sink you in bad glasswork, bad deck (or hull) core, bad rigging, a bad engine, or whatever other major problems the surveyor may find. Do buy a boat that you love when you see it, *and* that the surveyor confirms is seaworthy. Buying a cheap boat won't save you money, unless you decide you can live with the problems it has. As a wise old salt once said, there's nothing more expensive than a boat you got for cheap.
I'm years away from being able to purchase my first sailboat but already feel so knowledgeable and have started developing preferences just from watching all of your videos!
Watch some sailing channels where they bought a $5k boat. And then repair it for 5 years. Or more. Not me, i working and saving for a good base boat to start with then add my cruising needs.
You have to decide what is within your skill set. As far as work that’s going to need to be done. I’ve been in the business over 30 years… So what will be too far gone to me is different to other other other people.
Dad and I did extensive refit on 1983 Transworld 41' Ketch. A classic "Leaky Teaky" Beautiful boat. Paid 20k for hull. It had an engine but chronically malfunctioned (according to PO Log) Repowered with Yanmar 80HP Common Rail Diesel (Same engine as new IP). Installed new SS fuel tanks. The old ones were full of engine clogging debris and frankly... once out we could tell they were toast. New Electronics including downward and foward facing sonar. Replaced bow sprit, pulpit and raised safety line stanchions to hip level. We got new sails. Composting toilets (that was was one of the easiest things to do) installed solar panels - again. Easier than I thought. Sanded and reglassed keel. And finally... just as were "finishing" we realized compression post was rotting (there were hints but won't get into here) Compression post step was steel. Now it's stainless. In total over a 3 year period we spent 115,000.00 but we have a brand new boat. I wrote an article that was published Jan 2022 in "Good Old Boat" Magazine. That article was more about crazy parents and adventures. At that time we had just bought, "Bob" (That's our boat). I should probably reach out and update them. Happy to contribute some writing. My name is Nicole Black. TH-cam channel is Saddles & Sails. I'm not a sailor. Just a girl with sailboat. Oh... and I work on sailboats. So there's that. Happy Sailing!
To answer Tim's question, "when would I walk away," The short answer is when the surveyor tells me to." Two years ago, I found a 1983 Pearson 303 being offered for about $10,000. There was one big problem. The boat was in Rhode Island, and I live in Florida. So, for less than the cost of an airplane ticket, I hired a professional surveyor who answered all those questions, appraised it at $23,000 and provided me with a survey I could hand off to my insurance company. Turned out the boat passed, was in fair condition(no headsail), and with the deficiencies noted, the owner accepted my offer of $9500.😂
Another sailing channel used HomeDepot wire for the rigging and it held up for like 4 years'ish. And for the record we love you too bro, Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
"run away like a girl trying to heal me with a pile of rocks" speaks volumes to me, sir. :-) Well done! Love the channel and encourage everyone to join me in supporting you on Patreon. Yours are some of the most straightforward cruising videos out there and it's appreciated.
What do you think of stainless steel wire rope with thimbles double swaged and oversized (like from the box hardware store) instead of machine swaged SS standing rigging .... I've met world cruisers in the Florida keys who said they did it and it was fine.... I did it on my trailer sailer no complaints.... Stretched but lasted just as long as the thinner factory rigging at 1/5 cost
Ill be happy to pay for tims consultantation when i im looking at buying my next liveaboard cruiser. People have experience in different areas, some people are very practically minded & do big builds while others are happy doing small jobs . Good thing about working on your own boat is knowing the layout, when things go wrong or stop working you will generally know exactly whats happened. What id like to know is , is there an online trading site for saiboats only for all things parts , accessories 2nd hand (besides ebay , craigslist ,etc ) where people buy/sell things internationally . Brand new parts are $$$ , some times its better to buy good 2nd hand as people often buy things for spares & never use them or buy something only to realise that wasn't the problem & be stuck with a near new one after they bought the other part or have too many parts ( masts , booms , furlers , engines , transmissions , electronics, keels , etc etc )
9:07 agree with your breakdown. We bought a Seamaster 925 for 5 k€ last summer. Good reputation boat. From 1975. Although I admit we weee too eager/naive we knew we had to refit it thourougly. Problem was the seller didn’t tell us the mast was bad. Slagen we had it inspected before refit it showed a crack halfway through at the stay. Apparently this crack was years old and due to some impact on the rigging. Guy did not tell it when we bought it and denies knowing about it while claiming he inspected frequently ( not). Hard to get the money back and Hard to get a second hand mast of the right size and stays. Bummer! We now own a corpse…. Lesson learned. Keep up the videos! We learn a lot from them (well, also through the hard way 🙄) Cheers from the Netherlands!
for some of us... buying a 10k boat (with issues) along with a 25k total budget is an advantage...if they are the right issues. We get to re-build or upgrade it in the way that we would want. Want to try synthetic rigging, rig a carbon mast on a smaller boat, or install an electric drive to get rid of that old gas or diesel monster. A good hull with a mostly intact boat can be a steal.
I bought one of these boats in the summer this year and do want to say that (so far) it was well worth buying cheap now than waiting 10 years. I've (again, so far) avoided these issues and definitely agree with the breakdown of tasks by how big a deal they are. My mast is solid, decks/cores dry, keels (bilge keel) and bolts good. I've re-engined no problem (cost reflected in original price), done some glass work and changed the through hulls. All took work and a bit of money but reasonable on both fronts. New standing rigging, sails, headlinings, interior woodwork etc. will need doing but I'm comfortable doing them over time, and with an acceptable amount of my labour for the cost. All in all, if like me you can't afford a non-bargain boat, I say go for it! But don't just buy the first thing you find, take your time and get something that's got solid foundations, and this guys points are a really good start to finding that
am looking for a boat between about 16 and 223 feet, something to camp cruise around the interior waterways of the US on. i kayaked source to sea down the Mississippi river years ago and want to do something similar on a small sailboat. see how far i can go in 6 months or so.. havent found a boat yet. something big enough 2 adults can sleep aboard at anchor if there isnt a place for us to camp onshore would be a big plus.. i think my ideal boat for this would be a 20ish foot catamaran or trimaran. a windrider 17 would be pretty sweet.
Exellant advice regarding keel & unseen structual wood between fibergalss sandwich rotting. As for loos - people go to composting and say they wished they had done it earlier.
I've seen a few in port with some non-obvious but considerably-sized repair work done on the leading edge of the bow. That's something I wouldn't dare sail with.
great episode. I Walked away form a cheap Pearson 28 after casually leaning on a bulkhead and feeling a slight shift. Not something that can't be fixed or if DIYing it could be affordable but the time it would take was out of the question. In short, time has to be considered as much as monetary obstacles. Keep up the great work.
My wife and i are looking for a budget boat here in scotland and I'm finding your vids so helpful, im sure we'll get there but these vids make it no quite as scary! So thank u 👌🏴🇬🇧
Your on track in a good direction. Great subject content. We bought a late 80's 44ft cutter ketch rig built of steel hull &deck from Sweden shipyard. We love the cruise stability of the mizzen sail without using the mail (jig and gigger is the UK term). Live in belgium with boat in canaries is like little Hawaii with cheap flights every place for visitors.
Walked away from many boats I couldn’t stand up in, searched by Capsize ratio, in the 28-32’ range in the PNW all the good boats were getting sold before I could even see them finally made an offer on a Cal 2-30, very sound 1.66 cap ratio, new diesel, needs a main sail and new electronics and electrical been a great journey last two years headed to the Caribbean when done 😅
Congrats on the new position! Sailboats are made to sail and every time I haul out to repair it hurts because I want to sail but the wrong side up is not conducive to keeping the right side up. Your advice has always been a great source for me. Happy New Year Tim and keep up the good work!
1st boat cost me 2000. 31 foot 2009 2nd an amel Kirk 36 for 1000 and was in good condition only cosmetic. Even a boltruster and inox chain inox anchor, rollref 4 sails
I agree. Wood rot, especially deck rot was a big NO for me when I wanted to buy, but little did I know the beta repower that was started(engine/transmission was supplied but not installed) was going to cost so much! And if I would’ve had to purchase that beta new I’d of been out that much more $$$. The benefit of buying a used boat needing work is you can get that $40k boat for $10k like me and slowly put the money into it over time(new main sail, electronics, rewired/replumbed, running rigging) and you don’t need to save forever or get a loan to get sailing.
Keel shows signs of stress? Replacing the bolts and rebedding the sole is a 20-30 hours work... With an additional 60-70 hours you can repair a classic built hull after a hard keel grounding... Just done on a Sunrise 34 bought as scrap for 3000€... And it is now MUCH stronger and reliable than ever before. The only things that would make me walk away is the sandwich delamination and the mast that is missing... The rest can be fixed with relatively little money.
What is too much depends on the boat and the price. The biggest consideration is that an old boat is only worth so much. So throwing $30K to $40K at a boat that is only worth $15K max is not worth it unless the boat has some special meaning to you. Of course you may always find that one special person who thinks your restored to better than new Bayliner Buccaneer 210 is really worth the $30K you have in it. I agree about rigging, although my approach is to measure the individual wires and then simply order new ones. I have been using a rigging company in Massachusetts for almost 30 years with great results and the price is right. One thing about replacing the rig is to do it symmetrically - in other words, do both cap shrouds at the same time. Repowering with a new inboard diesel is a big cost ($15K+ if you do the work yourself), so the boat has to be worth it. Recoring a deck is not that hard. The hard part of that job is making the deck look pretty after the recore is done.
11 years ago I bought my 1980 Watkins 27 sailboat. 30-some years of hoping, dreaming and saving; two years of research and browsing...... After travelling far and wide (for me!) and seeing nothing but "bad" boats, I spied a likely candidate that had been listed for over a year and price-dropped at every listing. Sadly she'd been dropped back in the water just before a nasty storm, leading to (fresh) water in the bilge, a few topside scrapes and sagging rub rails. All good for dickering. ;) Last listed at $4600, i got the dealer down to $3850 all in; tags, title, transfer, winter storage and drop-in come Spring; amounting to $2800 actually in the boat. Soft foredeck, soft spots on cabin top, gel cracks around stress points; BUT..... a virtually new, 80 hr. Beta 20, at the time worth over $3500 used! And an all original, untouched interior. I can fix fiberglass. I can source sails. I can install bits and bobs; but I'm not a diesel mechanic. Sailed/motored it home 17 mi. and have had a glorious time sailing, fixing and relaxing for all these years So.....I bought an almost new engine and drive train, at a 70% discount and a sound hull and rigging came with it. Don't discount the fixer-uppers too hard. Cash on hand, deep research, dickering skills and patience may get you on the water, living your dream. 😂
Tim, I buy those old (bad) good deals, fix em up properly & sell em! Make sum good $ sumtimes! Never lost $! Just got a O'day 272 for $1,000! Doesn't need a lot of work! Just mega cleaning & polishing! But needs sails! Gonna sail it awhile & flip it! I currently have 3 other sailboats! They're all 4 sale! Luv ur channel! Thanx 4 the vids! ❤👍
Awesome content. Tim, I've loved following you this 2023, let me be one of the first from Down under Brisbane Australia to wish you & your family a very Happy New Year for 2024 🎆🎊, I finished my year off by purchasing my very first sailing boat. 2024 Adventures awaits, your advice is invaluable to many & inspired myself. Hope to see you on the water one day to raise a glass.🍻🍻
Heya Tim . Discovered your channel about 2 months ago and I appreciate your knowledge . I'm a newbie based in the Whitsundays , Australia atm with a budget of 20 - 30 K to purchase a liveaboard day cruising yacht . Watching your Videos has given me much patience in selecting a vessel . Thank you so much
We old sea hounds have it all wrong. Today's "influencers" with their all so easy breezy old driftwood boats they got for free or just a handful of dollars work outstanding. They fix them up for zero to nothing. Working on them like a champ and manage a close to perfect redo. With their zero to none cost of living, zero marina fees and everything else, they show us how it's done. They even have time to work on their videos and social platforms. 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅 There is no such thing as a "cheap" boat. Regardless whatever you need be replaced. Everything cost a shit load of cash. People who believe different are simply delusional. Thanks for sharing and happy new year.
I’d have to say bad engines are definitely worth it especially for say a Catalina and Ericsson 30-35s in good condition I’ve seen a lot recently for under 5k in great condition with either engine is old atomic4 that’s toast or universal that’s having a issue I think you can get a decent used low he yanmar 10hp single cylinder for 2-3k low hrs and they are typically smaller aswell as the motor swap of a sailboat is pretty simple in comparison to cars
You gave a lot of good info. I have worked on ships , tugs ,commercial fishing boats for over 60 years. I. Know wood , steel and fiberglass boats well. They all have their pro and cons. One thing is sure is if you are not able to do your own work you better have a lot of money. I have my 35 Ted Brewer sail boat in Rio Dulce guatemala. Because the marinas are very affordable. We would leave our boat for hurricane season in Panama , Columbia or Guatemala like crusiers from all over the world. If you are retired or free to travel the western carribean is very good . I will be 83 soon my boat is a classic and ready to go offshore now. Make me a offer , its in Happy Iguana marina it will be the deal of your life, and make my wife happy. She says Im too old to sail. .
I really like the idea of a great boat with a bad motor and converting to solar and electric motor. Wind and Sun powered sailing is my dream boat. Do you see this becoming more popular in time?
I think the main "walk away" is combination of problems. If all the boat is good, but engine is bad, then is something to tackle, if the rigging is bad, well, time to change it, deck soft? ok, you have to work on the deck, need new sails, you may go for it, all together, you won't know where to start, and you won't be able to sail it until an N amount of work is done, that might end up being years... I remember once walk away from a boat, the overall condition was "if you go sailing it'll fall apart on the sails pressure and sink". All the rest, could be done, like bad mast, well you look for the mast, and then see if the deal work together, otherwise, is a no. Off topic, I live outside of the US and I'm always looking for boats there (maybe one day... I'll go and buy one) but something really difficult to figure out is marinas and boatyard pricing there, winter storages, etc... That might be a good topic for when you run out of topics
I do keel bolts/keels, needing keel bolts should not be a deal breaker, as much as a “deal maker”. You would not believe some of the stories i have, about keels. Lol!
Great video! Liked (just now) and subscribed (quite a while ago). I'd add another "walk away" criteria to your excellent list. IMO, walk away from any boat that is going to take so much time to rebuild that you'll be trapped on the hard and not be able to live your dream. I have a friend in Key West who lost his girlfriend - she walked away after waiting over two years for him to finish up a 44' project boat that was given to him for free. He told her endless stories about the exotic locales they were going to sail to. She didn't want to be trapped in the yard with him, working 50 hours/week to make money to buy parts, and spending another 50 hours/week working on a too-big (IMO) boat. " Go small. Go simple. Go now."
Happy new year. Thanks for all the awesome information you share with the viewers. Keep up the good work 💪 SV Kiwi Lady Opua Bay of islands New Zealand 👍🏿
.. 1977 25 ft Irwin swing keel $150 essentially for the four stancions One sail Mast fair Halyards fair deck fair bottom job needed Got her in 2023 Nov shooting for summer sailing ...
Did you already do a series on (pending) Taxes/VAT when buying a boat, on choosing the flag and maybe even choosing to set up a eg Virgin Islands? Company which owns the boat to make circumnavigations easier. At least things top consider already when buying the first boat.
An Alberg 30 1969 near me. Looks like it just has a few marks in the fiberglass from moving it around. would need paint anyway. motor may or may not work and probably need to gut the inside. Its free if i remove it (the land has sold so its a condition of sale). Owner has the mast, rigging and sails to give me. I picked up a trailer on the cheap so im going to have it loaded and bring it home. Am I crazy? I have lots of room and im pretty handy at all of the aspects. Thick solid hull.
Great blog to watch... thank you for sharing I have the bug and off soon to Malaysia to look at buying a boat somewhere in the 40ft range Can you do me a favour and do a video on buying your first boat and things to look for obvious i will get a survey done on it before i sign but would be a great head start Keep up the videos and happy new year from Fremantle in Western Australia
I'm curious about your comment about the cost of TH-cam? You're not the only content provider who has recently grumbled. I'm strictly on the recieving end and supply no content, but have noticed an amazing uptick in advertisements. I find it crazy to watch a 10 minute video and have 3 or 4 advertisements. Someone is not making enough money I presume? OK...That's all I was wondering. Enjoyed the video. Oh, and just wanted to mention that in a previous video you stated you had a Chrysler 22 some years ago. I also had one in the 80's. Nice enough little boat. Sailed the Keys, Tortugas, West coast of Fla and even Bimini. But...and a big Butt...was the seal on the over engineered pivot for the swing keel. For short periods of time I could stop the leaking, and I'd say it was a definite design flaw from the get go. I've got a centerboard boat now with a nicely sealed trunk that does not leak. Thanks for all your great info and I'm enjoying your history vlog as well...Happy New Year
I downsized due to age and got a " free Maxi 68" 1 owner since new, stored inside in 11 years, inboard engine looks and runs like new, toilet with blackwayertank and heater. New sails ( used1 year) Good shape in gelcoat ! I live and sailed 5 month with it easy to handle ,easy to reef sails. But a " free boat" has costs , truck to get it from storage = 400 euro , + winter storage 2023-2024 = 650 euro, + cover 100 euro. But still i think she is worth it. She is my boat number 45 in my life and i guess the last !
Tim, My wife and I bought a 1978 Whitby 42 for $15k USD back in October. It had been sitting at a dock behind someone's house in Florida since 2001! When I first looked at it, I was ready to take a pass. But the more and more I researched, the better it looked. It was a one owner boat purchased new in Ontario in 1978. The owner was meticulous! I have every piece of documentation, including the original VHF license from Canada, when she motored down the Erie Canal! (Reminded me of your adventure) Currently, the boat is still at the same dock, about two hours drive from our home. I got the Lehman diesel running after a 20+ year hibernation! She runs great! I removed and overhauled the velvet drive transmission after it puked 3 liters of fluid into the bilge. We are getting ready to moter her down the ICW to be closer, as we are preparing for haul out. We are prepping for blue water sailing and ocean crossings! I'll keep you posted... Right before we pulled the trigger, I said, "we aren't getting any younger. Why wait?"
Subscribing to follow your journey!
There's a saying in the yard where I winter my boat. "There's nothing more expensive than a free boat". That being said, if you're lucky enough to get a decent one (as I did) is saves you a lot of money to to pay for the necessary items to upgrade and replace.
I'm quite pleased that you pretty much covered what I thought about ultra cheap boats
No bad keels, too dodgy, then the deck, after that, it's a judgement call
I'm a mechanic, with years of experience in using GRP. I used to make GRP trailers
I can weld, and I've spent years on building and construction sites
When I see Utubers doing boats up, and they really haven't got a clue, but they do it anyway, it gives me a great amount of hope that I won't have all that much trouble, especially when I see experienced round the world sailors loosing engine power because a rubber diesel pipe is letting air in...........
If they can do it like that, then I won't have any problem..........
I wouldn't hesitate to pull an engine out, rebuild it, providing it's worth the effort
I've rebuilt motorbike engines
You really question your skills when you see 100 MPH on the clock
Was that a tapping noise...?
Working on and building shop machines that go over 10k rpm are some clenchy moments. The break-in on those always makes me duck and cover.
Almost as scary as building a CNC when you let it off the leash for the first time. (Not that I would ever do a spindle at near lightpseed on a new machine... I ain't that crazy)
I'm in the serious thinking about building the whole boat... But the prospect of feature creep and skyrocketing costs have me in a long term planning/re-planning loop.
I've always been in the camp of I want everything, and with the rule of Good-Fast-Cheap, I'm always slower than a donkey's ass. Like they say, when you're time ain't worth sh*t, DIY becomes so much more affordable.
DO NOT RE-TIGHTEN STAINLESS STEEL KEEL BOLTS. Stainless Steel stretches and continues to do so during its life. That's why we replace standing rigging. Re-tentening stainless steel keel bolts will stretch them further. They will break given too much load. They should be replaced. Re-tightening them may also cause galling or cold welding of the nut to the bolt. This will give a false impression of the torque of the nut on the threaded rod (or bolt) All modern stainless steel keel bolts are threaded rod with a washer and a nut and lock nut for this reason. Stainless Steel especially 316L has high stretch and low tensile strength. Sail Safe Guys, Ant & Cid.
Totally agree
That's very interesting, I'll need to research this I know. 316 is less brittle but weaker than 304 so what you are saying makes alot of sense. Honestly I don't know why we still use stainless at all it causes. All kinds of problems. The entire Marine industry should move over to grade 5 titanium for all components that don't Require welding.
There may be a reasonable argument for carbon fiber chain plates and it seems even. The aluminum chain plates in my boat may be fine. But from what I understand grade 5 titanium lasts forever. Perhaps we are stuck with stainless standing rigging at least for those of us who live in areas with huge temperature swings Dyneema isn't really a viable option.
Umm let's see a fiberglass boat is for sure not 100% rigid and the hull flexes and things work loose over 20 years and you're not supposed to retighten? That conversely you should never retighten rod rigging? Which I'm guessing is sectionally under a greater load. I'm not disagreeing that SS steel does stretch but your position is tenuous at best. Work harding is for sure a big issue people don't understand.
I think you overstate the issue.
@@jackwalby6257 rigging definitely l work.hardens little. Bending. An aluminum. Can back and forth until it breaks. It probably equals the crevice Corrosion problems with stainless. With the motion of the boat always rolling, Even when. Not under sail. I was asking a surveyor about this because I have no idea how old. My rigging is, and the boat has always been in fresh water when not on the hard for winter.
He said the motion wears out the rigging also not just the salt. My rigging is possibly original from 79 with about half of the year on the hard. So. It's still about 23 years of motion even without the salt if it original so more than twice the useful lifespan even though not shows no visible signs. Of wear. No cracks or broken strands. It looks perfectly fine but it needs to go.
He was saying if you start to see broken strands you have waited too long to the point of danger.
@SalingSamantas The thing is you can inspect rigging. It should be done at least every year and before ocean passages. if there is any doubt you change the suspect component. It's designed to take dynamic loads and these loads can be imposed purposefully to gain efficient sail shapes. Keel bolts are like like cylinder head bolts. They are designed to take torsional loads and are torqued in to the correct value to compress keel to boat. Re-tightening them will weaken them, stretch them and impose a load they were only ever designed to take one time.
Been rebuilding Catalina 30s for a few years now
Motors are super cheap to rebuild the m25xp is just a Kubota d850 and rebuild kits can be had for 400 - 700 depending on the kit
I will say keel smiles 99% of the time are super easy and inexpensive to fix if you do it yourself
I finished 5 keel smiles and started a 6th that I will finish when it warms up
My turn and run are boats that have been dropped off their stands
Watch your compression post stub that's the interesting but doable repair
Soft deck
Rebed then think long and hard about how you want to fix it
Injecting closed cell foam is cheap and fast although you will need a vacuum pump
Great summary! I might add rotten bulkheads, particularly the main bulkhead where chainplates are often attached.
TLDR: Sailing boats is a lot of fun. So is fixing up boats, sometimes, but it takes away from sailing time. Make sure you're doing what you want to do.
I did buy a cheap sailboat once, for $300. An Ericson 29, which was a reasonalble boat. I had been sailing on it a few years prior, and it had been a solid boat. It belonged to an acquaintance at work, and he had left the boat on the hard for a summer while out of the state. When he returned to the boat, he found the interior full of water since water came in from a leaking deck fixture and had no way out. That meant that the engine -- an old atomic 4 - had been underwater. Simple, I thought, get a new engine and clean things up.
So I had the boat hauled to my backyard and sailed my smaller boat and then I cleaned and cleaned and cleaned and cleaned. I sanded it and redid this and repaired that.
When I got to the point where I started to think about pulling the Atomic 4, I stopped and said to myself "This is miserable. I would rather be sailing with my kids, and this boat is costing me that opportunity."
So I called a friend at a boatyard and he came and bought the boat for $1000 -- well, it was in much better shape by this point -- and off it went. I took the money and made a down payment on an ODay 272 and my family went sailing. And never looked back.
Since then I have realized that fixing up boats and sailing boats are two different pastimes. I enjoy occasional exposure to the first, but try not to let it become an end in itself. If I'm looking at a boat and I can't safely sail it *right now* then I don't buy it.
Keep your priorities straight. If most of your sailing hours are spent with a toolbox, make sure that's what you want to do.
I'm one of those people who bought "the old sailboat". It's still something of an unknown as the marina's haul-out is currently not an option and we don't want to try to take it to another marina until we know it's 'sea-worthy". However, it was my dad's sailboat before he died so there's a lot of sentimental value. I've heard sailing, like motorcycles, is akin to therapy (hopefully not just in cost)... but then she only cost $1500 CAN (like with a free puppy, there will be much more spent, I know). She's a 1981 Newport 28 so there are parts to be found and we aren't afraid of doing our own work. I'd never spend big money on a sailboat. And while we won't be heading to blue water until maybe next winter, we have a busy year ahead learning about our boat and how to sail.
A Newport 28 is a quality boat. Your father would be happy to see you sailing it. As for the blue water, it's not going anyplace. It will be there when you're ready. Restoring the boat is a journey, too. Enjoy it. :-)
I've been a city guy all my life, but I love this channel! My dream is to sail the Caribbean from Yucatan, 🇲🇽 to Cuba, 🇨🇺 and Puerto Rico 🇵🇷 and back again before I leave this planet 😊🎉
Run baby run !
Get a job washing dishes, save some money, buy a boat that some other skipper has spent a fortune on
That's our plan too hope to see you on the Sail
I picked up a solid glass '76 40ft ketch for a nominal fee, no working engine, insides all needed replacing. But you know what? I went for it because I can do most of the work myself. Woodworking? No problem. Electrics? 12v/24v is so easy. NMEA2k? Hell yeah all day. Mast was good, sails were serviceable. I can get swageless rigging done at a reasonable price. Only thing it is costing me is a bit of time, and yard fees. I have been working on it for just over a year and it has been customised to how I want it. Only remaining costs for me are replacing the engine, which will cost me £5k and a few NMEA2k gadgets. All in, I will have a lovely ketch that has been customised to my requirements for under £45k all in. I'd struggle to find any deal that would get me exactly what I want for that price.
I did an extensive refit on my cheap boat pretty much everything except the mast hull and drive is new bulkhead deck cores port lights. Hatches electrical plumbing stringers floor and cabin soles even the rudder is new. I greatly appreciate the learning curve and experience I am still Gaining from this refit. I really know my boat. Every detail every inch. BUT once is enough I wouldn't want to do it again. It takes a lot of time and money that could be better spent sailing.
Great to hear your now sailing and the sense of pride you must feel every time the sails fill, i'm at the begining of my journey with a coronet 20 build number 20 and have found much that needs doing but she still makes me smile.
@@shawnbartley9223 well I'm not quite sailing yet still. Going on the project I'm. Hoping for something next summer. To. Finally. Splash again for the first time since the fall of 2020.
@@brownnoise357 I'd love. To hear. All about it. Agreed. Being without a boat is unbearable. Fortunately I've had a smaller MacGregor 21 and I have been able to live on the water all summer since. 2020 and do some. Sailing too. But it's definitely very tight and inconvenient. Still I get to feel. The rolling Waves and . Hear the water Laping. Against the hull. I've got the best neighbors in my marina too. It's been an enjoyable experience and aloud me to continue living this life throughout the refit.
Please share When you get back on the water I'll be cheering for you.
well said, a cheap boat that is easy to fix the best bet if sailing is what you want to do, if you want to build your own boat build it, two different choices
So I’m currently in the market for sailboat #4 all were used and all were “cheap” boats.
The first one, was a cute little Cal 22 for 3k she wasn’t in too bad of shape, standing rigging was solid, sails were decent, but the woodwork was a royal mess, there was no engine, nor was there any running rigging to speak of. A few months of work (weekends only) and she was good and seaworthy, I already had a little 6hp long shaft I could slap on the bracket and call good ‘nuff. For what she got used for, namely being taking a couple 20 somethings jaunting around Buzzards Bay one or twice a week I was fairly pleased with her. Total refit cost was about 1k, not bad.
Boat 2, which was bought while I still owned boat 1 was not so easy. She was a C&C 25 that I picked up for 4k. Which I have to admit I over paid she needed pretty much everything except standing rigging and a mast. Fortunately she was also outboard so no big deal I thought. Sails were rotten, electrical was shot, basically a good hull, with a good deck, a solid mast and decent standing rigging, and not much else, even the rudder was junk! She got a serious makeover, and by the time I was done I could have pretty much just gone ahead and bought a much nicer example of the same boat. But that was a very good learning experience and it got me much more comfortable with working on things I might not have otherwise have tackled. Worked slowly in the yard on “Atropos” and still had “Vagabond” on the mooring to go for the occasional sail on to blow off steam with.
A few run ins with a good chop and a wind against the tide coming though Quicks Hole however told me that outboards are probably not the best, could hobby horse so bad the prop could be lifted out of the water which is … less than ideal…
Boat 3 was a Catalina 30, I practically stole that boat, they were asking 6k for her and her being an early MK1, I wasn’t expecting much, Craigslist no broker, crap pictures, pick your red flag it was there pretty much. But decided to give them a call anyway and see what was up. And to my surprise she was in fairly good condition. With most of the typical MK1 problems having already been solved. It was fairly apparent that until fairly recently someone had cared quite a deal about her, and there was the paper trail to prove it. The dodger was totaled with the isinglass blown out, the trim was in pretty rough shape and there were some minor bits that were rather conspicuously missing, like the galley table. But she was seaworthy as she was, so 5 days after purchase the delivery trip was done (the other 2 boats having been 1 sold and 2 lost in a terrible divorcing accident by this time)
Now me being me I couldn’t let this perfectly serviceable boat go without some fiddling with so new table right off the rip. Then she sprouted a pair of 100w solar panels because well weekending had turned into whole weeks and running the diesel was loud and dead batteries suck. Next she got a second bigger fresh water tank because running out of that also sucks. Then a diesel heater got added because I was living aboard and cold sucks and Maine gets pretty cold. Bermuda became an idea one day towards the end of October a little over a decade ago. Soon she also sprouted a little wind genny because using too much juice. Ended up cruising the east coast, Bahamas and bits of the Caribbean on that boat.
So things that would scare me away from the next boat; needing to do any recoring
A bad mast
Signs of keel issues, or keel damage suggesting a very hard grounding
Zincs that are completely corroded away (no desire to deal with replacing a shaft and friends)
A completely bad engine or one that has a stupid amount of hours on it
Having multiple systems that all need to be replaced.
This was a very informative video! However, nearly all the other DYI sailboat TH-cam channels, tell a story of buying an inexpensive sailboat and then working on it for 2 - 3 years. It would be great to see someone buy a $20,000 and then fix her up in three months.
The hull and engines are the most important things for me when buying a boat, if those are bad then walk away
I'm 73 years old now so I've missed my opportunity. I did sail snipes out of Oakville when I was a teenager so I know what it's like. Life just took me in a different direction. Still, you stir my dreams but that's all they can be now. Thanks for what you do.
@@annhooper726 When poor health steals your strength, there's no amount of positive attitude that can help. My heart went into atrial fib the day after my 60th birthday and I couldn't stay conscious. I've spent a significant portion of the last 6 months in hospitals trying to stay alive. I've now no illusions about being able to circumnavigate solo again. I feel fortunate to have 4 useful hours each day. I can't cruise on that amount of horsepower.
Enjoy your good health while you can.
If you sailed out of oakville you’re probably familiar with the Grampian yard. I sail a Walton 37 built by them in 1964. Still going strong. Never getting over the quality of their work.
Greetings from Texas Tim. Been following you for 6 months when caught the sailing bug and I’m 56 so feeling a sense of urgency. You were definitely an influence on me with your go cheap but go now message. I just put contact on an endeavor 32 in Pasadena Maryland currently on the hard for past 2 years. Plan to splash, survey and sea trial in March. Thanks for the encouragement. Happy New Year!
Thanks for the encouragement Bob!
That cat with the pitched tent on deck had me dying 😂 💀
Hi Tim, very good vid, I think you covered the major points very well, I would add, never buy a boat that is in the water make sure you get it lifted out so as to inspect the bottom and keel fully. A friend of mine bought a sailboat for a £1.00 that was in a marina local to me, everything above the waterline looked fine and sounded like a great deal as the seller was retiring from sailing and just wanted rid off it, but my friend had it lifted out found to his horror that the keel was off centre ! had been bent over, then a terrible repair with fibreglass that was peeling off had been attempted !
My friend (who was fairly new to boats) ended up paying a surveyor report to asertain if it was worth trying to repair professionally only to find out it was 4 times more than the boat would be worth! He then had to pay a lot of money to get the boat scrapped and Marina fees due for the time this all took and it ended up costing him over two grand!!
The morale of my story is Buyer Beware, if something seems like an incredible deal there's usually a reason for it, which many unscrupulous people won't divulge.
An example of a repaired keel - Sailing UMA.
An example of a successful deck recore - Sail Life.
Both of those counter examples notwithstanding, I don't want any of that smoke.
I reglassed the rudder attachments on a dingy once.
One thing not mentioned.
Older boats can have problems getting Insurance. Most if not all Marinas require at the least liability insurance. Check out that before getting your work project.
I sought a moderately priced, well-cared for, high-quality boat, with no red flags in the survey. It took me some time to find her, and I'm glad I went that route. My Tartan 31, even though she is more than 30 years old, was not cheap and she is worth every penny. I've watched too many TH-camrs who, even though they got a boat for super cheap, or even for free, ended up spending much more than I did, and losing a couple of sailing seasons, to go that route. If you have marketable skills, you're better off spending the time it would take to restore the boat working to save the money to buy a boat that won't sink you in bad glasswork, bad deck (or hull) core, bad rigging, a bad engine, or whatever other major problems the surveyor may find.
Do buy a boat that you love when you see it, *and* that the surveyor confirms is seaworthy. Buying a cheap boat won't save you money, unless you decide you can live with the problems it has.
As a wise old salt once said, there's nothing more expensive than a boat you got for cheap.
I'm years away from being able to purchase my first sailboat but already feel so knowledgeable and have started developing preferences just from watching all of your videos!
Watch some sailing channels where they bought a $5k boat. And then repair it for 5 years. Or more. Not me, i working and saving for a good base boat to start with then add my cruising needs.
You have to decide what is within your skill set. As far as work that’s going to need to be done. I’ve been in the business over 30 years… So what will be too far gone to me is different to other other other people.
Dad and I did extensive refit on 1983 Transworld 41' Ketch. A classic "Leaky Teaky" Beautiful boat. Paid 20k for hull. It had an engine but chronically malfunctioned (according to PO Log) Repowered with Yanmar 80HP Common Rail Diesel (Same engine as new IP). Installed new SS fuel tanks. The old ones were full of engine clogging debris and frankly... once out we could tell they were toast. New Electronics including downward and foward facing sonar. Replaced bow sprit, pulpit and raised safety line stanchions to hip level. We got new sails. Composting toilets (that was was one of the easiest things to do) installed solar panels - again. Easier than I thought. Sanded and reglassed keel. And finally... just as were "finishing" we realized compression post was rotting (there were hints but won't get into here) Compression post step was steel. Now it's stainless. In total over a 3 year period we spent 115,000.00 but we have a brand new boat. I wrote an article that was published Jan 2022 in "Good Old Boat" Magazine. That article was more about crazy parents and adventures. At that time we had just bought, "Bob" (That's our boat). I should probably reach out and update them. Happy to contribute some writing. My name is Nicole Black. TH-cam channel is Saddles & Sails. I'm not a sailor. Just a girl with sailboat. Oh... and I work on sailboats. So there's that. Happy Sailing!
To answer Tim's question, "when would I walk away," The short answer is when the surveyor tells me to." Two years ago, I found a 1983 Pearson 303 being offered for about $10,000. There was one big problem. The boat was in Rhode Island, and I live in Florida. So, for less than the cost of an airplane ticket, I hired a professional surveyor who answered all those questions, appraised it at $23,000 and provided me with a survey I could hand off to my insurance company. Turned out the boat passed, was in fair condition(no headsail), and with the deficiencies noted, the owner accepted my offer of $9500.😂
Another sailing channel used HomeDepot wire for the rigging and it held up for like 4 years'ish. And for the record we love you too bro, Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
"run away like a girl trying to heal me with a pile of rocks" speaks volumes to me, sir. :-)
Well done!
Love the channel and encourage everyone to join me in supporting you on Patreon. Yours are some of the most straightforward cruising videos out there and it's appreciated.
What do you think of stainless steel wire rope with thimbles double swaged and oversized (like from the box hardware store) instead of machine swaged SS standing rigging .... I've met world cruisers in the Florida keys who said they did it and it was fine.... I did it on my trailer sailer no complaints.... Stretched but lasted just as long as the thinner factory rigging at 1/5 cost
I have refit two "very expensive" cheap boats. no regrets. My next boat...well I haven't decided yet.
What about a 1979 Westsail 32? I am thinking of buying one
My 1983 Catalina 27 just passed its Survey . It is a great boat with a full list the former owner did to the boat So they are out there
Ill be happy to pay for tims consultantation when i im looking at buying my next liveaboard cruiser.
People have experience in different areas, some people are very practically minded & do big builds while others are happy doing small jobs .
Good thing about working on your own boat is knowing the layout, when things go wrong or stop working you will generally know exactly whats happened.
What id like to know is , is there an online trading site for saiboats only for all things parts , accessories 2nd hand (besides ebay , craigslist ,etc ) where people buy/sell things internationally . Brand new parts are $$$ , some times its better to buy good 2nd hand as people often buy things for spares & never use them or buy something only to realise that wasn't the problem & be stuck with a near new one after they bought the other part or have too many parts ( masts , booms , furlers , engines , transmissions , electronics, keels , etc etc )
9:07 agree with your breakdown. We bought a Seamaster 925 for 5 k€ last summer. Good reputation boat. From 1975. Although I admit we weee too eager/naive we knew we had to refit it thourougly. Problem was the seller didn’t tell us the mast was bad. Slagen we had it inspected before refit it showed a crack halfway through at the stay. Apparently this crack was years old and due to some impact on the rigging. Guy did not tell it when we bought it and denies knowing about it while claiming he inspected frequently ( not). Hard to get the money back and Hard to get a second hand mast of the right size and stays. Bummer! We now own a corpse…. Lesson learned.
Keep up the videos! We learn a lot from them (well, also through the hard way 🙄)
Cheers from the Netherlands!
for some of us... buying a 10k boat (with issues) along with a 25k total budget is an advantage...if they are the right issues. We get to re-build or upgrade it in the way that we would want. Want to try synthetic rigging, rig a carbon mast on a smaller boat, or install an electric drive to get rid of that old gas or diesel monster. A good hull with a mostly intact boat can be a steal.
Get a good hull, engine and reasonable sailwork and you are on your way. So many good boats for under 10k.
I bought one of these boats in the summer this year and do want to say that (so far) it was well worth buying cheap now than waiting 10 years.
I've (again, so far) avoided these issues and definitely agree with the breakdown of tasks by how big a deal they are. My mast is solid, decks/cores dry, keels (bilge keel) and bolts good. I've re-engined no problem (cost reflected in original price), done some glass work and changed the through hulls. All took work and a bit of money but reasonable on both fronts.
New standing rigging, sails, headlinings, interior woodwork etc. will need doing but I'm comfortable doing them over time, and with an acceptable amount of my labour for the cost.
All in all, if like me you can't afford a non-bargain boat, I say go for it! But don't just buy the first thing you find, take your time and get something that's got solid foundations, and this guys points are a really good start to finding that
am looking for a boat between about 16 and 223 feet, something to camp cruise around the interior waterways of the US on. i kayaked source to sea down the Mississippi river years ago and want to do something similar on a small sailboat. see how far i can go in 6 months or so.. havent found a boat yet. something big enough 2 adults can sleep aboard at anchor if there isnt a place for us to camp onshore would be a big plus.. i think my ideal boat for this would be a 20ish foot catamaran or trimaran. a windrider 17 would be pretty sweet.
Exellant advice regarding keel & unseen structual wood between fibergalss sandwich rotting. As for loos - people go to composting and say they wished they had done it earlier.
I've seen a few in port with some non-obvious but considerably-sized repair work done on the leading edge of the bow. That's something I wouldn't dare sail with.
great episode. I Walked away form a cheap Pearson 28 after casually leaning on a bulkhead and feeling a slight shift. Not something that can't be fixed or if DIYing it could be affordable but the time it would take was out of the question. In short, time has to be considered as much as monetary obstacles. Keep up the great work.
My wife and i are looking for a budget boat here in scotland and I'm finding your vids so helpful, im sure we'll get there but these vids make it no quite as scary! So thank u 👌🏴🇬🇧
thank you for watching!
Your on track in a good direction. Great subject content. We bought a late 80's 44ft cutter ketch rig built of steel hull &deck from Sweden shipyard. We love the cruise stability of the mizzen sail without using the mail (jig and gigger is the UK term). Live in belgium with boat in canaries is like little Hawaii with cheap flights every place for visitors.
Walked away from many boats I couldn’t stand up in, searched by Capsize ratio, in the 28-32’ range in the PNW all the good boats were getting sold before I could even see them finally made an offer on a Cal 2-30, very sound 1.66 cap ratio, new diesel, needs a main sail and new electronics and electrical been a great journey last two years headed to the Caribbean when done 😅
Just finished a re-core job on my Tartan 34c. Also added some glass to re-enforce the coach roof. Gel coat going back on now!
Congrats on the new position! Sailboats are made to sail and every time I haul out to repair it hurts because I want to sail but the wrong side up is not conducive to keeping the right side up. Your advice has always been a great source for me. Happy New Year Tim and keep up the good work!
1st boat cost me 2000. 31 foot 2009
2nd an amel Kirk 36 for 1000 and was in good condition only cosmetic. Even a boltruster and inox chain inox anchor, rollref 4 sails
I agree. Wood rot, especially deck rot was a big NO for me when I wanted to buy, but little did I know the beta repower that was started(engine/transmission was supplied but not installed) was going to cost so much! And if I would’ve had to purchase that beta new I’d of been out that much more $$$. The benefit of buying a used boat needing work is you can get that $40k boat for $10k like me and slowly put the money into it over time(new main sail, electronics, rewired/replumbed, running rigging) and you don’t need to save forever or get a loan to get sailing.
Happy new year, great content!! Welding masts is no problem with the right skills and equipment.
Keel shows signs of stress? Replacing the bolts and rebedding the sole is a 20-30 hours work... With an additional 60-70 hours you can repair a classic built hull after a hard keel grounding... Just done on a Sunrise 34 bought as scrap for 3000€... And it is now MUCH stronger and reliable than ever before.
The only things that would make me walk away is the sandwich delamination and the mast that is missing... The rest can be fixed with relatively little money.
What is too much depends on the boat and the price. The biggest consideration is that an old boat is only worth so much. So throwing $30K to $40K at a boat that is only worth $15K max is not worth it unless the boat has some special meaning to you. Of course you may always find that one special person who thinks your restored to better than new Bayliner Buccaneer 210 is really worth the $30K you have in it.
I agree about rigging, although my approach is to measure the individual wires and then simply order new ones. I have been using a rigging company in Massachusetts for almost 30 years with great results and the price is right. One thing about replacing the rig is to do it symmetrically - in other words, do both cap shrouds at the same time. Repowering with a new inboard diesel is a big cost ($15K+ if you do the work yourself), so the boat has to be worth it. Recoring a deck is not that hard. The hard part of that job is making the deck look pretty after the recore is done.
Thanks for the great tips and for sharing your opinions. Give us something to keep in mind. I really like the one stay/shroud at a time idea.
Congrats on the new job, and dont kick puppies
11 years ago I bought my 1980 Watkins 27 sailboat. 30-some years of hoping, dreaming and saving; two years of research and browsing......
After travelling far and wide (for me!) and seeing nothing but "bad" boats, I spied a likely candidate that had been listed for over a year and price-dropped at every listing.
Sadly she'd been dropped back in the water just before a nasty storm, leading to (fresh) water in the bilge, a few topside scrapes and sagging rub rails. All good for dickering. ;)
Last listed at $4600, i got the dealer down to $3850 all in; tags, title, transfer, winter storage and drop-in come Spring; amounting to $2800 actually in the boat.
Soft foredeck, soft spots on cabin top, gel cracks around stress points; BUT.....
a virtually new, 80 hr. Beta 20, at the time worth over $3500 used! And an all original, untouched interior.
I can fix fiberglass. I can source sails. I can install bits and bobs; but I'm not a diesel mechanic.
Sailed/motored it home 17 mi. and have had a glorious time sailing, fixing and relaxing for all these years
So.....I bought an almost new engine and drive train, at a 70% discount and a sound hull and rigging came with it.
Don't discount the fixer-uppers too hard. Cash on hand, deep research, dickering skills and patience may get you on the water, living your dream. 😂
Tim, I buy those old (bad) good deals, fix em up properly & sell em! Make sum good $ sumtimes! Never lost $! Just got a O'day 272 for $1,000! Doesn't need a lot of work! Just mega cleaning & polishing! But needs sails! Gonna sail it awhile & flip it! I currently have 3 other sailboats! They're all 4 sale! Luv ur channel! Thanx 4 the vids! ❤👍
I love your videos I dream of sailing just have a lot of obstacles
Awesome content. Tim, I've loved following you this 2023, let me be one of the first from Down under Brisbane Australia to wish you & your family a very Happy New Year for 2024 🎆🎊, I finished my year off by purchasing my very first sailing boat. 2024 Adventures awaits, your advice is invaluable to many & inspired myself. Hope to see you on the water one day to raise a glass.🍻🍻
Heya Tim . Discovered your channel about 2 months ago and I appreciate your knowledge .
I'm a newbie based in the Whitsundays , Australia atm with a budget of 20 - 30 K to purchase a liveaboard day cruising yacht .
Watching your Videos has given me much patience in selecting a vessel . Thank you so much
Your mast statements made me think of Sailing Emerald Steel, they made their own mast on the boat, quite a feat. See their channel for the vids.
stay away from healers throwing stones!.. and I loved the "I feel like I just watched someone kick a puppy" line!... Happy New Year!
We old sea hounds have it all wrong.
Today's "influencers" with their all so easy breezy old driftwood boats they got for free or just a handful of dollars work outstanding. They fix them up for zero to nothing.
Working on them like a champ and manage a close to perfect redo.
With their zero to none cost of living, zero marina fees and everything else, they show us how it's done.
They even have time to work on their videos and social platforms.
😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
There is no such thing as a "cheap" boat. Regardless whatever you need be replaced. Everything cost a shit load of cash.
People who believe different are simply delusional.
Thanks for sharing and happy new year.
Slip and winter storage 3k per year.15 years of pleasure 45k. Use this Russ formula as Minimum price for a used sailboat
I’d have to say bad engines are definitely worth it especially for say a Catalina and Ericsson 30-35s in good condition I’ve seen a lot recently for under 5k in great condition with either engine is old atomic4 that’s toast or universal that’s having a issue I think you can get a decent used low he yanmar 10hp single cylinder for 2-3k low hrs and they are typically smaller aswell as the motor swap of a sailboat is pretty simple in comparison to cars
You gave a lot of good info. I have worked on ships , tugs ,commercial fishing boats for over 60 years. I. Know wood , steel and fiberglass boats well. They all have their pro and cons. One thing is sure is if you are not able to do your own work you better have a lot of money. I have my 35 Ted Brewer sail boat in Rio Dulce guatemala. Because the marinas are very affordable. We would leave our boat for hurricane season in Panama , Columbia or Guatemala like crusiers from all over the world. If you are retired or free to travel the western carribean is very good . I will be 83 soon my boat is a classic and ready to go offshore now. Make me a offer , its in Happy Iguana marina it will be the deal of your life, and make my wife happy. She says Im too old to sail.
.
Thanks for everything!
I really like the idea of a great boat with a bad motor and converting to solar and electric motor. Wind and Sun powered sailing is my dream boat. Do you see this becoming more popular in time?
Thanks for the light hearted video, iv had a rough moment or 3 and it was nice to shut the stress off for a few minutes.😊
I think the main "walk away" is combination of problems. If all the boat is good, but engine is bad, then is something to tackle, if the rigging is bad, well, time to change it, deck soft? ok, you have to work on the deck, need new sails, you may go for it, all together, you won't know where to start, and you won't be able to sail it until an N amount of work is done, that might end up being years... I remember once walk away from a boat, the overall condition was "if you go sailing it'll fall apart on the sails pressure and sink". All the rest, could be done, like bad mast, well you look for the mast, and then see if the deal work together, otherwise, is a no.
Off topic, I live outside of the US and I'm always looking for boats there (maybe one day... I'll go and buy one) but something really difficult to figure out is marinas and boatyard pricing there, winter storages, etc... That might be a good topic for when you run out of topics
I do keel bolts/keels, needing keel bolts should not be a deal breaker, as much as a “deal maker”. You would not believe some of the stories i have, about keels. Lol!
wholeheartedly agree
Great video! Liked (just now) and subscribed (quite a while ago).
I'd add another "walk away" criteria to your excellent list. IMO, walk away from any boat that is going to take so much time to rebuild that you'll be trapped on the hard and not be able to live your dream.
I have a friend in Key West who lost his girlfriend - she walked away after waiting over two years for him to finish up a 44' project boat that was given to him for free. He told her endless stories about the exotic locales they were going to sail to. She didn't want to be trapped in the yard with him, working 50 hours/week to make money to buy parts, and spending another 50 hours/week working on a too-big (IMO) boat.
" Go small. Go simple. Go now."
Very good advice. The bigger the boat the bigger the costs. From standing rigging to marina fees, insurance, bottom paint....
Thank you for your input. I enjoy to listen to your videos. Always learn something for I am novice in the words of sailing.
Good stuff. Very informative
Excelentt advise: spot on.
Everything can be fixed
But what are the costs of that? That’s his point
This was very helpful! Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for your time and experience
Another thing that doesnt scare me is hull blisters. They do not affect performance or structural integrity.
Thumbs up for natures head, no more black water tank - best decision ever.
Thank you
Love your videos. Great presentation! Good luck with your new venture and keep em coming in 24. Thank you my friend.
Crazy, excellent topic well done
Happy new year. Thanks for all the awesome information you share with the viewers. Keep up the good work 💪 SV Kiwi Lady Opua Bay of islands New Zealand 👍🏿
Happy new year !
Thankyou 👍
Love this vlog, been a while, starting my very first project boat and always find good advice and tips here.
..
1977
25 ft Irwin
swing keel
$150
essentially
for the four stancions
One sail
Mast fair
Halyards fair
deck fair
bottom job needed
Got her in 2023 Nov
shooting for summer sailing
...
Happy New Year
What about moorings, dry dock and hauling in/out fees. That’s the real expense and never goes away.
Happy holidays Tim! Best of luck for the new upcoming year. Cheers!
Did you already do a series on (pending) Taxes/VAT when buying a boat, on choosing the flag and maybe even choosing to set up a eg Virgin Islands? Company which owns the boat to make circumnavigations easier. At least things top consider already when buying the first boat.
An Alberg 30 1969 near me. Looks like it just has a few marks in the fiberglass from moving it around. would need paint anyway. motor may or may not work and probably need to gut the inside. Its free if i remove it (the land has sold so its a condition of sale). Owner has the mast, rigging and sails to give me. I picked up a trailer on the cheap so im going to have it loaded and bring it home. Am I crazy? I have lots of room and im pretty handy at all of the aspects. Thick solid hull.
That’s a great find! You’ll have a blast bringing her back to life.
Cheers.
Do you have a video on how to do fiberglass work?
Great blog to watch... thank you for sharing
I have the bug and off soon to Malaysia to look at buying a boat somewhere in the 40ft range
Can you do me a favour and do a video on buying your first boat and things to look for obvious i will get a survey done on it before i sign but would be a great head start
Keep up the videos and happy new year from Fremantle in Western Australia
I'm curious about your comment about the cost of TH-cam? You're not the only content provider who has recently grumbled. I'm strictly on the recieving end and supply no content, but have noticed an amazing uptick in advertisements. I find it crazy to watch a 10 minute video and have 3 or 4 advertisements. Someone is not making enough money I presume? OK...That's all I was wondering. Enjoyed the video. Oh, and just wanted to mention that in a previous video you stated you had a Chrysler 22 some years ago. I also had one in the 80's. Nice enough little boat. Sailed the Keys, Tortugas, West coast of Fla and even Bimini. But...and a big Butt...was the seal on the over engineered pivot for the swing keel. For short periods of time I could stop the leaking, and I'd say it was a definite design flaw from the get go. I've got a centerboard boat now with a nicely sealed trunk that does not leak. Thanks for all your great info and I'm enjoying your history vlog as well...Happy New Year
I downsized due to age and got a " free Maxi 68" 1 owner since new, stored inside in 11 years, inboard engine looks and runs like new, toilet with blackwayertank and heater. New sails ( used1 year) Good shape in gelcoat ! I live and sailed 5 month with it easy to handle ,easy to reef sails. But a " free boat" has costs , truck to get it from storage = 400 euro , + winter storage 2023-2024 = 650 euro, + cover 100 euro. But still i think she is worth it. She is my boat number 45 in my life and i guess the last !
Happy new year captain k. All the best from the The Black Whale
Another great vid !
What about Chain plates ? I here some can be expensive to replace
YES SIR..