Happy Sunday everyone! Here's another quick breakdown of costs to help illustrate: At Mizzou, here are the expected costs: Housing & Dining, according to financial aid cost on average: $10,890, the average textbook costs is 1,049.50, American College Health Association, the average student health insurance plan costs between $1,500 and $2,500 per year.... And if we presume that a college student will use 200 dollars a month to cover discretionary expenditures like clothing and entertainment…. Divided by the 9 months you’re in Uni and you have 1,693 in monthly expenses. By Contrast, the German Federal Foreign Office, estimates those costs to be only 934 euros per month and requires from 1 January 2023, the presumed annual requirement that must be paid into the blocked account when applying for a visa amounts to 11,208 euros for a year. What do you think?
Textbooks may vary for field of study. I did a technical degree (some time ago). There were only very few books we needed. Some formulary (once) and we mostly bought scripts which were just copied papers which some student did in recent years and which were comparably cheap. You didn't need that if you were always there to write your own notes. There were a few good and expensive books which could help but you didn't need them and you only bought them once. Or you had luck and you could get one from the library. The most books I bought (on computers) were merely personal interest. I was for years without a car (I had a driving licence). Train and bike would be enough. Then I could use my mother's old car for some years. But it was a hassle to got to university by car and especially find a parking spot, so I used it only occasionally. Over 30 years ago I had (converted but not indexed) €430/month for everything. which would be about twice today. So it seems it didn't change much.
I agree with Reinhard. My study time was 40 years ago, and the BaföG was about 700 DM (at the most), room was 115 DM/month. I had a car, used it for visiting my parents. The rest of the time it was parked somewhere close to my dorm. I usually spent less than 800 DM/month. Just checked with my daughter, about ten years ago she spent about 800 Euro/month studying in Offenburg, rent in the Wohngemeinschaft of three was 300 Euro. So I think an estimation of 1000 Euro/month sounds like a good rule of thumb.
When you said roughly: “the educated student themselves are the return on the investment” I thought: “wow, finally someone doing this type of comparison who get’s the real difference”. That is was the single most important part of your analysis. Thanks!
You are right. There are some parts in a society that shouldn't be a business. Education is one. Germany has few natural ressources. So our most value ressources are the well educated people. Only with these people germany have successfull companies. We can not afford to only educate the ones, who can pay their education. Its also a thing of fairness to poorer people.
Investing in people always has paid off for Germany. Just think of the generations of Gastarbeiter, waves of refugees and last not least immigrants or soldiers that found their wifes here.
Regarding textbooks: as a student of the University of Applied Sciences in Bremen, I had access to almost every textbook I needed in PDF format as part of my library account. A quick run to the copy shop and 20 Euros later, I had a textbook that would've been 100+ Euros otherwise. I bought the more important ones directly from the publisher never the less.
About Scholarships: So this is important to me, therefore let me add this to your video: With the scholarships in Germany you forgot many institutions and foundations that also give out scholarships. The most prominent being the Studienstiftung des deutschen Volkes (the German Academic Scholarship Foundation), Germany's largest, oldest and most prestigious scholarship foundation according to their own website. Their scholarship is not to be confused with the Deutschlandstipendium you mentioned. With the Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung and the Heinrich-Böll-Stiftung you only mentioned two of the many political foundations that are closely aligned with a certain political party and usually grant scholarships to students who adhere to their political values. The Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung is close to the CDU, the Heinrich-Böll-Stiftung close to the Greens. Then there are the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung (SPD), the Friedrich-Naumann-Stiftung (FDP), the Rosa-Luxemburg-Stiftung (the Left), the Hanns Seidel-Stiftung (CSU) and recently there has been debate around the newly founded Desiderius-Erasmus-Stiftung (AfD). Then there are religious Foundations that give out scholarships like the Evangelisches Studienwerk Villigst (protestant), the Cusanuswerk (catholic), the Ernst-Ludwig-Ehrlich-Stiftung (jewish) and the Avicenna Studienwerk (muslim). There is also the Hans-Böckler-Stiftung (union/labour movements) and the Stiftung der deutschen Wirtschaft (economic actors/employer friendly). Those are the main ones, but then you might find niche foundations that give out scholarships to students with a really specific background. I only mention this because I was lucky to get a scholarship and during my time at University I met SO MANY BRILLIANT STUDENTS who should have had scholarships too but just weren’t aware of the possibility or didn’t know how to apply or didn’t think they would qualify or maybe thought they weren’t good enough. I want to raise awareness to these foundations because there is free money and so many more would qualify but never apply or are discouraged. SO: whoever student reads this: Applying doesn’t hurt, so, SO many more students could get in and benefit. It is free money, you ARE good enough, GO FOR IT!
I think it would make for an interesting video to talk more about these in the future... tbh as an American conducting my Phd research in Germany, I was first extremely confused by the political party scholarships. As an American, I would worry that there would be political bias or additional scrutiny over my research if it looked influenced by an ideology. But I was surprised that for the large part, this is not the case at all. That being said, as a non-EU citizen I didn't qualify for the vast majority of them, but was very very thankful for the grants I was awarded from the DAAD and the State of Baden Wurttemberg.
Plus, these fellowships are not just €300. That’s just the portion all scholars get, independently of income. There is also the income-based portion that follows the Bafög guidelines for income eligibility and amount, only that it’s a full scholarship, not half loan.
If you don't like the food offerd at one day in germany, you can just go to a private operated (fastfood) restaurant or bakery, wich is possible because usually the campus is basicly a part of the city center
Important point! All the universities I know are embedded into a town. Therefore many features do not have to be offered by the university because they are available at the next corner. Some places like Heidelberg do not even have a campus but the buildings are strewn throughout the town
Würzburg has built something like a campus area recently - still many university buildings are strewn over the town. If you don't want mensa food, you just go elsewhere.
That's not so common as you might think. Both my universities Mainz and Bremen have a dedicated huge campus with very little or nothing spread across town. That's basically true for most universities founded after the war, like said Uni Bremen, or for instance, Kaiserslautern, Saarbrücken, or Hildesheim. Uni Mainz was founded in 1477 but was disbanded during the French occupation and refounded directly after the war. Its campus is really large. Still, there are enough cafeterias and mensas to have a good selection, both privately and publicly operated. Same for Bremen.
But then you are paying out of pocket. US students typically buy a meal plan for the semester which allows them to choose among on-campus cafeterias, but wouldn’t cover off-campus meals.
@@annamc3947 depends on the system. here some meals are cheaper for students because part of the 300 to 500€- fee pays for this. But you do not have to preorder
All of 4 kids (in Germany) got their bachelor and masters degree. They all had no more then around 15000 loans, because of the help of Bafög and Kindergeld and some small jobs they did. They studied some semesters in other countries like Korea, Schweden, the Netherlands (mostly) and England. We as parents are so thankful for the German government how the helped us to let our children study.
Not that surprised about book costs. The most expensive book I bought was one for macroeconomics - 80€ (Book needed for the course, which was typically attended by 400 people.). We used the European international edition of it, which had a note in them that it was illegal to bring them to US/ CA and sell them. Our professor noted that this was because the students there were paying triple the price due to the nonregulated book market there.
Meanwhile in computer science: Book is available as PDF from the university library, and the professor makes sure enough physical copies are on hand for everyone who still needs one. Never had a course with mandatory books. Making materials available for the student was seen as responsibility of the lecturer. If you told one of the CS students at my university they MUST fork out 80€ for a book, there would be riots. I have seen quite some difference between fields like economics, law, chemistry, physics and computer science in terms of how material is handled, with economy/law and computer science seeming to be polar opposites. So I guess book costs heavily depend on your field and university.
Back in my days in Freiburg lots of restaurants around the university had either a cheap "Mittagstisch" or Studentenrabatt. So there was no need for fancy university restaurants as it is not a campus university and you had the entire city at your disposal, from fast food to Michelin star restaurants. Btw: you can get alcohol at a German student restaurant.
We are a German-American family living in Oregon. We just dropped our daughter off at the University of Cologne to start a Bachelor’s degree. If she had gone to the University of Oregon, we would have been lucky enough to not pay tuition (since we are Public university employees), but even the cost of living for room and board and personal expenses would have been $15,000 for 9 months according to the UO website. On the other hand, we expect her cost of living in Germany even in an expensive city like Cologne (but lucky enough to get a dorm room) to be $1000/month or $12,000/year (since university is year-round there). Then a Bachelors degree is only 3 years. So total cost just for cost of living would be $60,000 at UO and $36,000 in Cologne before you even talk abput tuition! As you mentioned, the dorm room is a single room. She has her own bathroom and a shared kitchen. Our friends’s kids starting at US universities now often have to share a room with 2 people! It costs $360/month. A private room would have much more expensive in a city like Cologne, more like $500. Also, the Semester Ticket of €300/semester covers the public transportation in all of Northrhine-Westphalia from Aachen to Bielefeld! So this can cover weekend trips as well. And then there are no non-financial benefits: no mass shootings, no party rapes, even the risk of meningitis is lower since students don’t live on top of each other as much.
Thank you for sharing. I agree about the non financial benefits. I would also add benefit of learning new culture, maybe pick up new language, opportunity to travel Europe etc. We are also planing on sending our daughter to study in Germany. She still has a long time tough.
Date rape doesn’t exist in Germany? I definitely would have that conversation with my daughter wherever she went to college about how to protect herself.
@@annamc3947 statistically the rate of rape is dramatically lower in Germany than the US. I was talking specifically about the frat party/drunk rape culture that is pervasive at many US colleges and not at German universities. Partially, because student liefe is different, partially because Germans tend to have a different attitude towards and education about sex and alcohol.
@@barbaras5550 or they’re just not reporting it. To make a decision about where to study on that basis seems bizarre to me. My daughter went to college in NYC which statistically has a high crime rate. Girls know to travel in groups and have each other’s backs.
@@annamc3947 sure, everybody has their own priorities. For me the priority is that my daughter has a care-free college experience. That includes not being traumatized by active shooter drills (number of gun homicides/year in the US: 10,000, in Germany: 50), being able to go to a college party with the expectation of not being molested or raped, going home by herself because you don’t need to travel in groups, and most of all be dept-free.
I‘m currently studying at the university of cologne and actually never had to pay anything for books. All professors are required to give book recommendations for their lecture but they also admit that these are most often not really necessary. Sometimes students also pass these books around as pdf or we simply get them in our library for free.
This is an awesome comparison. I also feel that you really like the German way of how things are done for the students. My daughter here in the US still has over $41000 in student loan debt at the age of 37 and she has just a regular office job, making $2400 a month. With a 2 bedroom apartment going for a minimum of $1800 a month anywhere in the US, It is impossible to ever have a life. When I went to University in Germany, I even got a "Foerderung" from the Government, meaning I got a monthly allowance that I did NOT have to pay back due to my family situation. Yes, I got paid to go to University. During my internship at Siemens, I got hired right away once I was done with University. I have no idea when and how it went wrong so bad in the US that going to University is just a money pit with no real ROI for the STUDENT...ever. BTW, my wife, over 60 years old, decided she wanted to finish her Bachelor at UNLV. It is mainly online and still costs her about $4000 a year for just 1 class per semester and when I look over her shoulder, I must admit that the courses are like Realschule/Gymnasium level. I am actually shocked as I personally think it is a scam to be honest to just give a degree that is useless but the university makes a lot of money.
As a foreign student in Germany, my costs were: - University: 500€/year, includes transportation - Textbooks: 0€/year - Housing: 2640€/year, includes electricity and internet - Food: 1600€/year - Insurance: 1080€/year Total costs: 5820€/year Income: 5400€/year Of course I had other costs like entertainment and clothing, but I kept those to a strict minimum, and my blocked account drained so slowly that I didn't have problems. Meanwhile there were germans with Bafög (financial aid) who were struggling with finances, I think a huge part comes down to not being willing to sacrifice their quality of life over the period of the studies, for me living within my means but stress free is a higher quality of life
Another thing to note about books in Germany is, that my university had entire sets of books for courses. Some of which had up to 1000 students. Everyone who wanted a book could get on from the "Lehrbuch Sammlung", a special section only for those sets of textbooks.
My uni lib in Germany even ordered an American textbook for a completely new subject for a course with the American book prices per book and gave it to us free of charge as loan book.
@@Miristzuheiss i`m a german student and a have acess to many datatbases form diffrent publisher companys where i can download the books i need for free, this service is provided from the bib
I'd like to add a couple of things: Food: In my experience, it's more common to just buy groceries and cook in Germany than in the US because a lot of dorm buildings only have one community kitchen. Books: You also have to consider the Buchpreisbindung, which means that the price of a book in Germany is set, so most books have a very similar middle-ground price and it's not determined by whoever sells the book. Financing: In Germany you're only allowed a part-time job (20 h/week) when studying full time. However, I know many American students who worked a lot more so they could pay their bills. Also in regards to sholarship: You mentioned the Konrad-Adenauer- and the Heinrich-Böll-Stiftung. Those are two of the 13 Begabtenförderwerke, which will grant sholarship on very specific criteria, for example party affiliation, religious beliefs or just excellent grades.
I think you misunderstand the Buchpreisbindung: The publisher has to set a price for a book and no store is allowed to sell it for lower is the short version of it, so they could sell books for the american prizes.
@@betaich no, I understood it. It creates a more equal level of pricing, though. Not just for the same book, but also for books in general. In my experience, you can buy books for all different price points in the US, while here most books range between 10-30 bucks. (Sometimes more like the mentioned law books, like the Schönfelder.) In the US, I had to buy textbooks for 80$, which would be 25 here
Ah interesting point about financing/work. If I recall correctly, I think my student visa also limited me to working only 20 hours per week (but I think the technical wording was that I could work X number of days in a year). But as a foreign student with a visa, there are often more stringent regulations on work/study balance. Is this a regulation for native-german students as well?
@@TypeAshton Yes, you're only allowed to work a max of 20 h/week. There's only the possibility of a 70-Tages-Vertrag/kurzfristige Beschäftigung, which allows you to work more hours but only for 70 days of the year. It is mostly meant for breaks. You're supposed to focus on your studies and are only allowed to work more if you're a part-time student (or in an Urlaubssemester, I think) because then your focus is work.
@@daphnekruemel Technically you're allowed to work more than 20 hours a week. You would lose your 'student status', so can't work as a Werkstudent, have to pay the normal amount for health insurance depending on your income (instead of the lower student premium), have to pay taxes and so on, so you could end up with less money than if you just worked less than 20 h/week, but it's not forbidden for german citizens.
With the single book per class: back in my days you were usually permitted to copy the relevant sections of the book for your studies at the library. The student pass doubled as copy card.
I am neither an American nor German (I'm Macedonian) but have had the opportunity to study at University campuses both in the USA (SUNY-Fredonia) as well as in Germany (Humboldt- Uni in Berlin as well as Uni-Gießen) and I think I can pretty much compare the infrastructures in both countries from an unbiased point of view: if you don't want to read further, to summarize it has been my experience that university infrastructures in both countries are pretty much similar and I would concur with the points of the video. Repetitive as the author, but my takeaways: What I prefered in the US was the food varieties in the dining halls, and even in the late nineties, when vegetarianism wasn't a thing, there were meat-free options. Mensas in Germany, while ok, did not offer many varieties (everybody joked a about an infamous white sauce is Gießen which was used in literally every dish offered). Also very important to me: the sports infrastructure was very comparable on all campuses, so I could practice whatever I wanted to. And yes, it was also a downside of my experience in the US that I had to share a small room with a total stranger- while it was basically ok, I would've much prefered to have had my own room as well as use my own toilet. And yes, I only owned a bike in Germany whereas in the US, if you wanted to go places you really needed a car, otherwise you were more or less stuck on campus.
Just to add/correct regarding student accomodation in Germany: the buildings don't necessarily belong to the universities directly, but to the Studentenwerk, which are separate organisations. So for example in my city the Studentenwerk and its residence buildings are available to students from 7 different Universities.
Admittedly, my days as a student (in the US and in Germany) are long since past. When a friend told me a couple of years ago how much textbooks in the US cost these days, I had to pick myself up off the floor, so great was my shock! When I was a law student here in the 80s, I spent most afternoons in the library where I could find the commentaries and other reference books I required. The costs of those would have been prohibitive. I did subscribe to a loose-leaf volume of the most important laws. I would receive an update every few months that involved removing some pages and inserting new ones. I think every lawyer in Germany has this collection in the office.
What I have noticed about American universities is why do they have expensive sports clubs? This is all money that the students pay. That's why it's so expensive to study in the United States. If these sports clubs were eliminated, the cost of studying would be much lower. But who knows where some of the money goes, in any case, I suspect, into their own pockets.
I think a lot of the money goes to the professors, because... there's a weird system in place. In the US universities are seen as investigation centers and the products of the research are patented by the universities, so they pay a lot to professors to do research (not to teach) and they profit from the research too. (I'm not american. This is stuff I've read and I may be wrong)
@@germangarcia6118 , there is a nugget of truth in your assertion but it is more nuanced. Public research universities do have more of their faculty doing research than teaching nowadays but that is a more recent trend. During my time at university several decades ago, all faculty taught undergraduate courses as well as doing research. Now, those courses are often taught by graduate students or adjunct (part-time) faculty. Part of this is the result of needing to secure grants for their graduate students and the “publish or perish” mentality of those seeking a tenured position.
Aber du kannst doch auch in ein schickes Restaurant neben der Uni essen gehen :D habe ich ständig gemacht. Mittags ist das Essen überall auch schön günstig. Wir haben das früher ständig gemacht, um mal dem Mensaessen zu entgehen :)
Hello Ashton, happy Sunday! In my opinion the students in America are seen more soon as customers than students. I' ll always forget to give you a big aplause for your well researched deep dives into to each topic. This time I did not forgot it. Best regards Ralf
@@urlauburlaub2222 in the USA the 'parasites' are called 'banks'. And they are worse than the parasite students, I dare to say because they have enough money to buy influence and politicians
@@urlauburlaub2222 the US system attracts way, way more parasites, to be fair. That's why its so expensive. Also, what definition of scholarship are we using?
Re: books - when I was still back in university, it was usual to order books for a whole course, saving money "by numbers". Like, when I needed some books for my biology course, EVERYBODY in the course ordered those books, so we got a cost of maybe €15 per book.
I love all of your videos but I think this one is my favorite. I am particularly interested in this subject and here you are feeding all the info to me. I appreciate that you include so many facts and statistics and references. I had to pause it few times to not to miss any details and to analyze the tables. Such an informative video. I can’t thank you enough for compiling all in this elegant short form. And then the part of the mentality of education funding in Germany vs USA made me almost emotional. Thank you again ❤❤❤
The whole system of Germany's political foundations (like FES, HBS, or the two you mentioned) would probably be an interesting topic for your non-german viewers. It is very particular to Germany.
First of all your video was very comprehensive, informative and to put it shortly just great! I think with your comment on which kind of ROI is expected in Germany and the US you hit the nail on the head. And I would say that you can extend this argument to other topics like healthcare, welfare and so on. In my opinion Germany is more community centered/ views the whole society as one community while the US may be more individualistic or centered around local communities. Although it seems to me that some people here in Germany forgot that in nearly every individual success there is some part provided by society. May it be infrastructure, legal certainty, safety or (matching this video) the education of the successor him/herself or maybe her/his employees.
A word about England (education is a devolved area so Wales Scotland and NI are different) Students attend three terms a year varying from 8 to 12 weeks. Tuition fees are capped in the UK by the government who pick up the balance. The cap is also a floor. Most students finance this by government controlled loans from a commercial student loans. Currently the fee element for a three year degree is £30,000. In addition the loan will cover a proportion of the living costs based on parental income. For parents on low or no income a bursary is provided, and receipt of the bursary opens up additional funding from the university. My sons finished university 12/9 years ago. One studied at one of the ancient universities. Accommodation was provided for each of his three years at a reasonable rent first year was in college central to the town, but was for the terms only as the accommodation is used for conferences in the vacations. Meals are provided in college,breakfast and dinner being paid for termly though students can sign out for meals. There are no cooking facilities in the college for the first year. 2nd year + are in flats shared by 3 students with shared bathrooms and a living room/kitchen. At the end of his first year his exam results earned him a scholarship which was the maximum permitted of £320 per annum plus a free gown two free dinners in hall per week, and a termly book grant. Book prizes were also available for exam performance. Of course only some 10% of the year were awarded scholarships or exhibitions My other son attended one of the new universities that emerged from the polytechnics. Fees were the same as for his brother. His first year was in a university flat on the campus. This had en-suite bathroom and shared kitchen / living room. These flats had been built using private finance and were much more expensive than the donor financed accommodation at Oxbridge. Years two and three were in shared houses rented on the market. These were 12 Month rentals that he made use of because he worked the long vacation on an industrial placement. On completion of the placement he was offered a job with a bursary from the employer. This bursary exceeded his brother's scholarship emoluments including free meals book grants and gown! Neither boy worked a part time job during term time but worked in the summer vacation. The one at Oxbridge did some light activities paid by the college as shifts in the college bar and the other served in the OTC paid as part of the Army Reserve for a year. But these were both marginal. Because of my income about half the living costs were added to their loan and half financed by us their parents which was affordable. I believe they have both now paid off their student loans. However the cap was closer to £3,000 per year rather than £9,000 as today. Today increasing numbers of students of vocational, normally STEM, subjects take a graduate apprenticeship during which they combine work and studies. The apprentices receive a salary and the university fees are covered.
There is a big miss in your research! I’m a German who studied in Germany and struggled financially. 1. If you live in a big city (I studied in Cologne) cost of living is significantly higher! 2. My mother was supposed to pay me 600 Euro per month according to the Bafög committee. But that was her entire budget she had to live in, so I waved it. 3. Because of that I had to work a lot (30 hours a week due to very high cost of living) which resulted in not be able to be a full time student and after 4th semester My Bafög was cut off because I took to long! From that point on I had to work even more! I would’ve preferred a loan so I can study full time and be done faster. No system is perfect!
Another great video Ashton, you really have a great way of explaining complex matters and more importantly break them down to a societal level (I.e. Germany working for its future/long term and the US seemingly just looking to extract as much money from people). Keep up the excellent work!!
When I went to university, I had a car. While I walked mostly to classes, I drove home perhaps once a month. I studied in Braunschweig, where is no campus and the buildings for certain areas of learning are relatively wide-spread. But I lived very near most of my classes. Just once a week I should have walked further.
Very nice video again. I have a thesis which might explain some of the differences in costs for students - especially things like high rates on student loans in the US and high costs for accommodations on US campuses. As I understand it - please correct me if I'm wrong - a college degree is pretty much the only formal job qualification in the US. So either you have a collage degree or you are considered formally untrained, even if you did some form of apprenticeship in your craft. In other words, in the US a plumper is a person who learned their trade from another plumper - for better or worse. In Germany on the other hand we (Yes, I'm partisan. Take everything I say with a grain of salt ;)) we have the dual education system which combines an apprenticeship with trade school in a three and a half years long training which leads to official job degree which again is approved by the state. So in Germany the same plumper is a person with a least 42 months of training in plumbing but also in things like heating, solar energy and air conditioning. They can choose further education and achieve a masters degree (not the same as a masters degree in the US) which allows them to train young talents in their profession. The result of this system is that in Germany even an OK plumper likely will earn more money both per year and over their lifetime than many university graduates. To - slowly - get to my point: I'm not saying that the American or the German system is better. But while (as I understand it) in the US colleges basically have a monopoly on professional training, in Germany young people have options which way to go. Sure, US colleges and universities compete with each other but there is no other system of formal education they have to compete with. I wouldn't be surprised if this de facto monopoly on professional education leads to high student costs for example for a dorm room or for a student loans. What is the young person supposed to do? Go to another school with equally high prices for accommodations and with the same rates for loans (I'm aware that it's not the school who gives the loan)? Disclaimer: This is just a thought. I never experienced higher education in the US first hand. I would be happy to hear your thoughts.
Single rooms are quite normal in German dorms and cheaper. In Germany in the cities it makes no sense for a student to have a car because they are just too expensive.
In addition to dedicated student dorms, many students also team up in small groups and rent a regular normal flat together - flat-sharing. It's called Wohngemeinschaftin German (or WG for short). It's a *very* common thing to do, and has been for many decades.
In my expierience - which is a little bit dated since I'm on the older side - a car was nice to have but not necesssary cause you have good public transportation in most citys in germany and it's paid with your semester fee. But it is a good thing to have a drivers license, cause it opens up a lot of jobs you can do during breaks. Rearding the eating at a Uni... In Germany there is a saying "Der Student geht solange zur Mensa bis er bricht". You can translate it as "the student goes to the Mensa (=cafeteria) till he breaks, with the intended wordplay that the word "brechen" in german means breaking and vomiting. So if we are talking about food you know ... But from my experience - I studied in Hamburg - the food was cheap and good and if you didn't have the time to go there: the next Döner shop was right around the corner. My best Mensa memory is that they served Glühwein (=hot wine) during the winter time. We were 6 or 7 students who had the same courses for the whole day - practicle studies in the morning and lecture for the next day in the afternoon.So we eat lunch in the Mensa five days a week and the first one who put his fork down went and get hot wine for everyone (90 Cents for a cup almost the size of a red solo cup). When the lecture started everyone was 5 to 6 cups in (at least) and the last one was "to go" so we had something to do during the lecture. I still don't know how we survived this semester cause we were between tipsy and hammered every day, depending how fast we could eat and how many "Cup runs" we had.
Ah man, I remember too once that either and the beginning or the end of the semester (I can't quite recall because it was my first year) the Mensa served beer to celebrate. That would never happen in our conservative state in the USA. I think when I graduated from Mizzou they gave us a token for 1 single cup of beer and the line was so outrageous on the quad that it wasn't even worth it.
In Bonn for Pharmacy and Medcine you actually could get all your books at the library. They had all books needed in the appropiate numbers. Nevertheless you would usually buy one or two books for a total up to 80-100€ on your own so you could mark passages and make notations. As for food Mensas are the by far cost efficient way to get food at a german university. As the universities and sometimes even faculties are spread over a alarge part of the city you have a lot other options if you want more variety. And especially in areas with many students and faculties there are usually a lot of of resturant that cater especially to students.
Hi Ashton, another great video! Regarding dorms and cafeterias, this also depends on whether the campus is spread around or not. Many universities were founded after the war, and usually, they are the ones with a big campus. Out of my head, Bremen, Hildesheim, Kaiserslautern, or Saarbrücken come to mind. Both my universities Mainz and Bremen have large campuses. Mainz was founded in the 1400s and disbanded under French occupation, but reopend in 1946 on new grounds with enough space to expand. On each of those campuses, you'll find some ugly high rise with student apartments and a significant number of cafeterias, cafes, or sometimes restaurants.
My personalexperiences on two topics. First the free transportation (semesterticket) in the early nineties. At that time most students had their own car, because as mentioned most of the don't live on the campus. When I studied the university had about 16000 students, but only 2000 places to live on the campus. So the university needed a large parking lot. Now the number of students nearly doubled and the former space of of parking lots was used for new buildings. There were a lot of discussions introducing the semsterticket, because everyone had to pay for it, but not everyone wanted to use is. It even went to court. The next thing was, what it would cover. One option was, that it would only contain the local bus. At the end with higher costs it was extended the trains in the area (150-200Km). This turns out to be a good way as the reduction of parking lots shows. Second is, that parents have to pay for the children. Yes, parents are more responsible for their children here as the get Kindergeld for years to invest in their education. When I started studying, we were a group of about 8 students, because this makes it easier than doing it alone. And one of them was struggling, because the parents didn't want to pay, because she left home a year ago in a fight. But her father owned a company with several employees and of course made enough mones to pay for it. So she gets the money from the social welfare office and they went to court against the father. She didn't have to take care for that. I think most students have three sources for their costs: BaFoeg, parents and working. Some get more from the parents, some work more,..., but at the end there's a good chance, the amount for work can be combined with studying and you loan be affordable to pay back.
Now college students often download books or buy them on Facebook from other students who took the class last term. My daughter (2021 NYU grad) spent very little on books. I spent far more as a law student at UCLA in the 80s. Then we were required to purchase books, often written by the professor, who would make extra money by assigning his own book. It was quite a racket.
Parents in Germany can deduct the cost of their children's studies from their taxes, if they pay 1000 EUR per month, then they don't have to pay taxes on it, which is up to 400 EUR savings, so they pay less than the amount they give to their children. Those who can't pay that should get Bafög, but of course there are always those who are right in between.
It's really easy to spot the campus building in Germany, all other things aside - the different styles of loud music echoing through the streets is a dead giveaway that a lot of youth are without supervision.
Something easily forgotten are the newly published papers that can be found in the university libraries, often for free (or you have to show your student-card). I was in the libraries when ever i could. Reading books or papers that sound interesting. From archeology over mathematics, physics to sociology. I would walk into a random section grab a book and see if it was interesting. I should have done more studying instead. 🙂
I never lived on campus because it was close to home so I could save on housing costs. Had my own room I never had to share with anyone else. Driving was a rule because I needed to get around and in the pre Internet era, downloading study material simply wasn’t an option. It was necessary to travel to distant campuses to get research done that couldn’t be accessed at my campus. All of that made for an interesting student life.
Why is it cheaper in Germany to study, because the German greed is not as big as in the US of A. Best example, I was a TA at a Florida University for a while, and there I noticed that some professors wrote their own Text books (which is cool I guess) and those Professors requiired their students to purchase their books for each course. Now how does it work in the US to make money for books each year? Simple you bring out a new edition each year, that way your students need to purchase the correct edition for that year, hindering the RE-USE of books from years prior. You see the greed is real, also some classes do not disclose the books you need until a few days before starting your semester, meaning you cannot search around (like on Amazon) to see if you get books cheaper (and yes you will get them cheaper on Amazon by 50% on some occations) .
There is something I need to ad. I study law in Germany and I am not buying new textbooks every semester. Infact I never even bought one textbook (with an exeption to the legal texts) ever. We normally have big data banks completly free for most of the secondary legal texts you would need. Anything else you can find at the libary and you can just scan it. The only thing which has to be up to date are the legal texts, but you can also find them in the internet. Only in exams you would need a new textbook. Also here the system is different. Normally (not in the beginning but after a few semesters) you would by books where you can take every single page out and then just the new pages. In total that would cost you about 100 € per semester. Depending on how many changes there were. So even as a law student you don't pay a lot for books. But I also think that changed in the last few years because there are more internet sources.
To foreigners: "Studentenwerk" is a corporation that shall offer services for students - like the dorms and Mensa. Also: What is blamed in Germany: There is only a very small number of dorms in relation to the number of students available. On Top, yes these dorms are relative cheap but also very basic. I had a friend in Cologne. Her dorm was some 12m² including bath. A table was attached to the wall. most time she sat on her bed (too high) at the table. A chair could only be places at the side of the table. On the other hand: Most students look for those, because renting a room in this cities might cost between 2 and 4 times a dorm (at least).
I lived about 50km away from my university and used the train to go there every day. 15min walk, 45min train, 15min walk (could've used the bus at that point) and that for about 5 years. The semester ticket went from 150€ to about 170€ in that time.
Universities get the headlines, but it's worth noting that in Germany there are also Fachhochschule (colleges of applied science) as we as other opportunities to gain work skills and experience; apprenticeships, job training, etc., so that not everyone 'needs' to go to university to get a job. You mention that a well-skilled workforce is the goal and that is true however the majority of that workforce in Germany didn't go to uni. I think this is a big difference that also needs to be looked at. Great video series nonetheless. It's clear you put a ton of time into these and I do enjoy them!
21:50 onward: on the point comparison between the two aproaches: US: Student invests in his/her individual success Germany: Gouvernment invests in the nation's success Thank you so much for your well made and in depth analyses. They reallyhelp to pit some things into perspective. Keep up the good work! Greetings from the Ruhr district!
Also to mention: Since the universities buildings are more or less spread you simply NEED a bicycle for your study - to get from on lesson to the next in time. I heard from Aachen - there are hardly 2 lessons in one building.
There is a great feature in from Deutschlandfunk Hintergrund "Studieren in Armut - Kein BAföG, Inflation und hohe Mieten" (2022/09/28) that's worth listening to understand the reason, why the BAföG is used less in recent years and how parents are involved in financing a university degree.
My time at university was decades ago and I commuted from my parent’s home. I got a top notch education for a bargain price but that was before the concept of the “university experience” became stylish. Now, it seems in the US that students are pampered, viewed as customers, and more concerned with the university’s amenities than the actual classroom/lab education and expect that they’re guaranteed good grades because they’re paying big dollars. That is a far cry from my freshman honors physics class where the professor asked us to look to the student to our left and right and understand one of them might not be there for the spring semester. We were expected to work the problem sets and pass exams to receive a passing grade. The idea that it would take 6 years or so years on average to attain a bachelors degree was lunacy to us. One recent incident making headlines in the US put this all in perspective for me. Reading about the mind-boggling incident of a group of pampered students being unhappy with their organic chemistry grade leading their university to non-renew the contract of a retired Princeton University professor that actually wrote THE text book on organic chemistry. They claimed their grade didn’t reflect the “effort” they put into it. They seem to be under the impression that it is not the mastery of a course’s material that earns you a passing grade but how much you tried. I’m not sure such a thing would happen in Germany but it is indicative of why so many US taxpayers without college degrees don’t want to support students and public universities with taxpayer funding. In the real world, these non-degree holding people realize it is the product you produce or the tasks you complete that earns you your paycheck, not if you made an “effort.” The end result is students have to pay for their education with little help from general society.
That professor taught at NYU, a private university. I know someone who took his class. While brilliant, he was very very tough and hated pre-med students. It’s a balancing act, but when a University has many students failing a key pre-med class, it’s a problem for recruitment and retention.
I was studying at a private Fachhochschule in Germany. We once had a teacher for marketing, whose contract was cancelled after a year. While the Fachhochschule had many people teaching, who have been working in the field to also teach practical information, that one teacher kinda, well, didn't do a good job. After each quarter, all students were asked to rate the professors. That guy probably got a pretty bad rating. I remember him telling me that it wouldn't matter if I didn't partake in the practice exam (I had a family event at that exact same date), He said I was good enough to finish with top marks. I actually failed the exam, like many others. The things asked didn't match what he taught us. We had to repeat the exam as an oral exam and most students did pass then. But it were other professors taking the exam. So, all in all it was good that his contract wasn't prolonged, as his teaching methods weren't too good. So, not prolonging a contract may be due to many factors. The teaching needs to be good, the way the exams are taken needs to be good. Students should be taught what is needed for the exams. Also, there shouldn't be any biases, no matter on what they are based. A tough professor is one thing, but a professional of a field doesn't have to be a good teacher. As in your example: That professor could have been the biggest expert of the field, but if he can't teach, he just shouldn't. There's a huge difference in research etc. and teaching the results of said research.
I have studied Industrial Engineering in Berlin and Business in St. Andrews. I have NEVER (!) bought any textbook. Either the lecturers had their own scripts for the class (which is the absolute norm) or we were required to read up-to-date journals, which were found online, via sciencedirect or else.
The financing of education explains partly why productivity in Germany is higher than in the U.S. More people can afford higher education. Maybe the gain more than covers the expense for the public sector, then it becomes a win-win situation.
The percentage of people going to university is a lot higher in the US. But that's because Germany has an extensive system of vocational training. So you don't need a degree for a lot of jobs. Though there is a noticeable trend of more people studying than learning a trade.
When I was in uni (Spain) I had a car, but I didn't use it to go to uni. It was 15km away from my home, but I took a bus. I don't like driving so early in the morning, I rather just sit half-asleep in the bus until I get there. My car was for the weekends.
Very common is WG (Wohngemeinschaft) means multiple persons share a apartment. When someone leaf the rest will decide together who take that place. This interviews with the future room-mates can be like Spanish inquisition.
The cost German students have to cover are mainly the normal costs of daily life. Universities in Germany are generally tuition free with only comparatively quite small fees, but that does not mean that they offer free board and room, too, or pay for the student's hobbies and partying. Students in Germany have to cover their own cost of life, but only little cost of education.
I remember one semester at Uni in the US my books cost me almost $500 and that was in 1993. Usually I was able to get used books costing roughly $200 per semester.
One semester I recall my books touching 1,000 USD - but many other semesters it could be cheaper, especially if I rented them online and not through the University bookstore.
I studied law in a northern city in Germany and our university always updated their collections as soon as a new edition was released. They also often gave away old editions for free to clear up stock. Also the universities always have contracts with the publishers regardless of the field of study so you can access the common most current textbooks online for free. You just need to use your university e-mail to access the content. So you really never need to purchase a textbook here if you cannot afford it.
Publishers in the US are there to make profits, it is not about making contracts with universities to give out free books. At some Community Colleges you might get the text books included in the tuition and by using your email it might provide you acess to a student version of certain software for free.
When is studied law in Götiingen, my book costs were not high mostly the law texts and some outdated secound hand commentaries. When done my work i cross checke with new versions in the libary if things had changed. Only for the exames i had a new set of books.
I am from Austria (neighbor to germany), I am a student and I receive study grants. The amount of my study grant depends on my eligibility, my age and other factors, e.g. the fact that I am married, my husband has his own income, that I have children or that I have an annual pass for public transport. I'm older than students usually are when they start and I've worked for a number of years before that, so I'm no longer entitled to support from my parents. That's why the state steps in because I've supported myself long enough and have already paid taxes and that's why I get a "self-support scholarship" (Selbsterhalter:innen-Stipendium) It is made up of my study grant plus a bonus for my public transport annual pass and support for my daughter’s childcare costs, which means that I only end up with 10.5 euros per month (no, that’s not a typo) [instead 160.5 euros per month] for day care: And if I add everything up and divide it by 12 (months), I get a total of 1852.00 per month, 12 times a year, tax-free, net, without having to pay anything back.. and so I definitely don't have any stress when studying. This is covered by the taxes that I have already paid or/and will pay in the future.
Ich bin meistens mit dem Fahrrad zur Uni, ab und zu mit dem Bus (Semesterticket) und bei schlechtem Wetter mit dem Auto (immer Probleme, einen Parkplatz zu finden). Fahrrad war ideal, wenn Kurse über den Tag in verschiedenen Uni-Gebäuden stattfanden, da ja diese in der Stadt verteilt lagen. Finanzierung teils durch Eltern (hauptsächlich für Miete in eigener kleinen Wohnung, kein Studentenwohnheim), teils durch BAFöG und teils durch Nebenjobs (mal in der freien Wirtschaft, mal als HiWi in der Uni). Ein Studentenausweis bringt häufig Vergünstigungen, insbesondere bei Eintritten und auch bei Kneipen.
I studied in Leipzig and I actually loved the mensa there, so as in the US, every university is different. We have different places in the city, but the largest at the main campus has everything. A vegan and vegetarian meal every day, also different each day, a meat and fish one, often pizza and Asian style food and a sort of barbeque, which operates like a take away and a bar where you can grab fresh smoothies or any kind of dessert. The other mensas didn't have this great variety, but a vegetarian option was always there. You also use your student card, which also serves as the semester ticket, to load up money and with which you can buy then at the check out. But from friends at mine I also know how bad other mensas at other universities can be . It's highly interesting to see how this is operated in the US.
With the online account of my university I get free access to PDFs of many scientific publications and books, because of a contract between Springer and my university
I studied in Germany and the UK. I've always had at least two jobs and my parents luckily paid my rent for me. I had a scholarship to cover the fees for my PhD programme in the UK but still worked roughly 25-30 hrs/week to pay for living costs. EDIT: Germany tried to introduce general tuition fees about 14 years ago when I was still in university. There were protests, strikes and even quite a number of universities were occupied by students and ..... let's just say, there are no more general tuition fees in Germany today.^^
When I started my vocational training with 18 (and had my own appartment) I transfered the responsibility Kindergeld to my hands. Just a signed formular by my parents and after that it was "mine" and I could tell to which bank account it goes. If you have no good reasons for your own appartment the government can send you back to your parents home until you are 25. When the students ask the goverment for BAföG ( Bundesausbildungsförderungsgesetz - Federal Training Assistance Act for students ) the students and parents then have to show their wealth (savings, possessions, etc.). If they have to much the students got no support from the goverment.
One more thing about the book situation: in Munich (and I guess, that is similar in most big universities in Germany) you do not have to buy any book, because the universities have subscriptions from the publishing companies, which allow all the students and other university members to get the digital copies of the books we would need for free. Of course if you want to study with a printed version, you would have to get it from the library or to buy it by yourself.
Scripts. Ie materials created directly for the lecture are usually either provided free of charge or for a minimal charge of a few Euro per Script (priniting cost)
The german Mensa real costs for a meal is the cost for guests - and without any profit for the mensa (not foreseen for a mensa), the prize for employees is reduced, as per law, the employer can pay an amount of the prize for his employees taxfree. The difference for the students and pupils of the students pays the gouvernment.
Great video! If you don’t qualify for BAföG, there is also loans from the German development bank KfW available, which have similar interest rates to American student loans and you only need to prove your student status to be eligible.
The university where I studied I has two dining places. One is the normal cafeteria, but there is also a fancier place that is a bit more expensive, but has far more choices, better presentation, higher quality, etc. Enough to compete with some restaurants. They won several country wide awards.
Very good overview and comparison thank you! I went to a top ten liberal arts college (Middlebury - now costs 72k/yr !) and then went to WashU for my doctorate (it was free and they paid me a stipend of 20+k/yr). If you study STEM in the USA for your doctorate you can get it for free and get paid to study. Just something for the Germans to know - it's not all crazy expensive.
Yes there are ways around it. I got my master's for "free" since I worked as a teaching/research assistant and was also offered a teaching position to offset my tuition if I conducted my PhD at the University of Kansas. Honestly, as a non-EU citizen it is difficult to qualify for scholarships or grants in Germany, as many have an EU citizenship pre-requisite.
Here in Berlin back when I was a student in the 1980s, most Studentenwohnheime were inhabited mainly by foreign students, especially POCs, who in those days had little chance of finding a place on the general housing market because of racism. The number was always woefully insufficient, and nowadays private companies have started building student housing in small quantities, and it is of course much more expensive. There is one of those buildings near where I live where a mini-apartment starts at €699.
4:20 Dormatories exist in Germany as well, they're just not that common. While I never lived in one I know quite a feew people who have...and all of them agree that studying is much more difficult there because there's always a party going on. I wouldn't say that dorms are the cheapest option - living in a WG (Wohngemeinschaft) can be quite affordable too depending on the city and number of people sharing the costs. I lived in a WG for 4 years with 3 friends (so we where 4 people in total) which made the appartment very affordable. There's a huge problem with scholarships in the USA btw. They are fine if you receive a scholarship from an academic institution, the state or a company that is aiming at offering you a job once you finished your studies, however many of them are also offered because you're good at sports....and that is a problem unless you try to become a sports teacher or something. College sports are huge in the USA, however these students can rarely focus on their actual studies.
Athletic scholarships only go to a select few. They’re not a big source of college funding. Only those at the very top can expect it to lead to a career in sports. Most student athletes are just in it for the scholarships.
The thought of ROI (return on investment) actually does not often cross my mind as a German, it is more like: "Am I considering it worth the investment at this time?". The latter thought includes many details that are hard (if not even impossible) to count. Looking back at decisions thirty years later (or more) often shows my gut feelings of that time were right. (The bad decisions I simply forget about). And that in turn makes me look at money I spend and spent for taxes or insurances in a much more positive way. I am just giving back a bit of what was given to me some decades ago. And I am giving back according to my possibilities, not by accounting for what I got.
I studied in Göttingen (Niedersachsen) from 2010 to 2014, so I had to pay around 500€ per semester. The lenght of study for that electrical engineering degree is 3 years but I had an arrangement with a company nearby where I could work in the time I wasn't present in the university. Its called "duales Studium" and is meant to combine studying at an university and make an apprenticeship at a company at the same time. So I had to split the first two semester so I can take half the classes and work half the weekdays. That made me spend one additional year but therefore the company paid the 500€ per Semester and I had a job with 25 (paid ;) ) vacation days and an monthly income of around 700€. Additional to that, I lived the first two years at my parents so I didn't have anything to pay for in the first two years. After that I shared an appartment with my girlfriend, so I had to spend a little bit (around 350€/month) for rent. $1400 for a student appartment seems very expensive. I live in a two-story house with 140m² right now and pay less ;) I also never bought a single book. We had an account at the Springer Verlag automatically with our university account. So, at least from that source, I could download and print any book of any field they offered for free. That was all I needed at least. But nice video :) Looking forward to the next one
Ok, I am 49 now, so my university time is some time ago. My Mensa experience was extremly different and much like my mothers. The discribed Food situation at a german university here would be heaven in my time. I never had to buy a single book, but had high copy costs.
Yeah, I've always been puzzled why the US Federal government's regulation on all federally consolidated loans (undergrad and grad plus) preventing private lenders from taking them over at lower interest rates while charging 5-7.8% interest. It's one of the highest interest loan rates (higher than home or auto loans). For reason's you mentioned, interest should be near 0% for those making the standard payments and slowly increase up to say 3% for people who aren't making payments (unless they can show financial hardship). That way it incentivises people to pay off their loans, without the federal government profiting off from high interest rates, which only further sink future earners. But for the government to have the highest rates and also prohibit private lenders from taking over the loan seems like a scam and a backward one at that :)
For me as a German and former student it was a bit of eye-opening by this well-done video that a) US universities run their own spaces to live (apartments etc.) and b) students are required to live there. I do not know any university in Germany which offers such an acommodation. The german student's apartments are mostly run by the Deutsches Studentenwerk, a state-run non-profit umbrella organization for student affairs in Germany, separated and indepently of any university. If you want an apartment from the local Studentenwerk, you basically only need to be a matriculated student in the respective city, no matter in which university of the city you study. Or you can take your own apartment or shared apartment, as you like it - the university does not take care of this. The second effect for me is that I can comprehend those scenes in Hollywood movies of dormitories, campus life and more of that culture which does not happen in Germany in that form,
I think you missed a very important fact about Bafög: If you're unemployed after university or can't afford paying your rates the payments of your rates can be suspended until you're able to pay them back again.
ha interesting, i did not know that german parents are mandated to financially step in during studies. And I am quite sure my parents never thought about that. It is just kind of normal way of thinking over here . At least as a student myself I thought so and perceived it like that. It is just what I thought was "selbstverständlich" that if possible you support your own family.
afaik parents have to pay for studies or ausbildung til the age of 27. so if you start over again and again, there must be a limit to the costs your parents have to pay for you. books: every seminar had a handapparat in the library. all the books you needed you could find there and they could not be taken outside. so you almost never had to buy books for your studies.
It seems Canada is leaning toward the US. We really don’t have full private Universities. It is cheaper to stay in your home province but you cant go to anouther for not that much more, especially if the program is of better quality. However, cost of living can be substantial. In most in major centre’s, cases more than tuition.
It is important to mention that FAFSA is need based, and although many students fund their own education, if the student is under 24 yo and their parents make above the threshold, they will not qualify for funding even with no contributions from the parents. Also, the program’s scholarship portion is limited at way below the tuition, anything above that is some sort of need based student loan, the biggest portion of which is non-subsidized. On my first year, I received a FAFSA offer of $300 in a loan, but no other type of funding as my parents made enough to fund my tuition, but by then, I was already independent and living on my own for quite some time, and had to fill out legal forms to become independent and receive the $1200 in funding per quarter. That was still not enough to fund the tuition, and I had to work full time for the most part of my undergraduate years… but I was lucky enough to find jobs within my field and graduated with 4.5 years of experience… but many of my friends had to find jobs at coffee shops and fast food restaurants, besides my international friends who were unable to obtain work authorization, every one of my university friends worked a job, and many had to work full time.
This is an excellent point and something I personally also dealt with. Interestingly FASFA will also base your financial assistance on your parent's "net worth" and not necessarily their yearly income. My dad is a farmer, so he has a lot of "worth" tied up in machinery, equipment and land... but the amount he makes at the end of the year, after paying off operating loans, is a tiny fraction of (about 2-3%). Unfortunately, their calculators don't take this into consideration and I didn't get any assistance for my bachelors besides an 8% interest rate loan from the government.
On the other hand, a professional graduate in USA can earn a lot of money. I remember numbers of 50k $ per year or more for 50% of the graduates. By the way, the Heidelberg castle is not in the Black Forest though the view is nice.
Another issue that has been mentioned a to lately is, that in the US, students are often told that a college education is the only way to get a good job (since there are few apprenticeship programs) - and so quite a few graduate with useless degrees and a lot of debt on top of that.
I had the same thought. In the US colleges and universities compete with each other but they don't have a second formal system of professional education to compete with like in Germany. There is basically a monopoly on formal job training in the US. My guess is that this leads to at least some of the high costs for students.
Shortly say: Yes they are! And If they can't pay, you will be f****d up and have to work for your study or in my case your trainee! That's the reason why my oldest one goes working since she is 13 years old!
Sehr interessant. Es gibt viele WGs, aber das war wie etwas, was ich wollte. Ich bin von zuhause in die Hochschule gependelt, habe in einer normalen Wohnung gewohnt und auch ein Semester in einem Studentenwohnheim. Ich würde die Wohnung empfehlen. Nur aus Neugierde: Hast Du noch Kontakt zu deiner Zimmergenossin von damals?
Ah yes the book thing. I almost forgot. Those books are made in thailand, and there was one guy who bought them locally at a very low price and then sold them at about half the normal price. Needless to say, the publishers sued the shit out of him until a US court decided that it was his right to trade his private property..... Meanwhile, I dont really need books because almost all of the information is on the lecture slides but even if I do, I can get them online for free. I think the Universities should be forced to include such costs in the tuition fees. At the very least, then the students would get an accurate idea of what the true costs are, and maybe some would stop insiting on fleecing their students with ultra expensive books.
i dont think the US will change their student loan scheme. its just way too beneficial for the companies to have it this way... its way easier to control and force new employees the way you want to, because they need their jobs way more with a high debt allready burdening them down
USA was cheap before Ronald Reagan, 1yr Tuition was only $900! I lived at home, used the bus, we bought books direct $150 the year 5X $30… Uni Mainz was free for me dorm on campus w/private room ~30$/ month ditto for Mensa and beer was a buck a bottle at down stairs kiosk.. Books were all checked out of Library, free. Then USA grad school hit, Tuition was out-of-state $10,000, 10x more than undergrad…. Books were $150 per class .. student loans at end were $50,000 and I worked on campus.. I vote for the German way….
Happy Sunday everyone! Here's another quick breakdown of costs to help illustrate:
At Mizzou, here are the expected costs:
Housing & Dining, according to financial aid cost on average: $10,890,
the average textbook costs is 1,049.50,
American College Health Association, the average student health insurance plan costs between $1,500 and $2,500 per year....
And if we presume that a college student will use 200 dollars a month to cover discretionary expenditures like clothing and entertainment….
Divided by the 9 months you’re in Uni and you have 1,693 in monthly expenses.
By Contrast, the German Federal Foreign Office, estimates those costs to be only 934 euros per month and requires from 1 January 2023, the presumed annual requirement that must be paid into the blocked account when applying for a visa amounts to 11,208 euros for a year.
What do you think?
Textbooks may vary for field of study. I did a technical degree (some time ago). There were only very few books we needed. Some formulary (once) and we mostly bought scripts which were just copied papers which some student did in recent years and which were comparably cheap. You didn't need that if you were always there to write your own notes. There were a few good and expensive books which could help but you didn't need them and you only bought them once. Or you had luck and you could get one from the library.
The most books I bought (on computers) were merely personal interest.
I was for years without a car (I had a driving licence). Train and bike would be enough. Then I could use my mother's old car for some years. But it was a hassle to got to university by car and especially find a parking spot, so I used it only occasionally.
Over 30 years ago I had (converted but not indexed) €430/month for everything. which would be about twice today. So it seems it didn't change much.
I agree with Reinhard. My study time was 40 years ago, and the BaföG was about 700 DM (at the most), room was 115 DM/month. I had a car, used it for visiting my parents. The rest of the time it was parked somewhere close to my dorm. I usually spent less than 800 DM/month.
Just checked with my daughter, about ten years ago she spent about 800 Euro/month studying in Offenburg, rent in the Wohngemeinschaft of three was 300 Euro. So I think an estimation of 1000 Euro/month sounds like a good rule of thumb.
How about the tuition fees? They may be even more than the sum above.
@@danielb3299 That's in the other video and yes, that's a big difference.
Also you have the Erasmus program if you are Eu citizen which is a scholarship program if you study in another country in the EU.
When you said roughly: “the educated student themselves are the return on the investment” I thought: “wow, finally someone doing this type of comparison who get’s the real difference”. That is was the single most important part of your analysis. Thanks!
You are right. There are some parts in a society that shouldn't be a business. Education is one. Germany has few natural ressources. So our most value ressources are the well educated people. Only with these people germany have successfull companies. We can not afford to only educate the ones, who can pay their education. Its also a thing of fairness to poorer people.
Investing in people always has paid off for Germany. Just think of the generations of Gastarbeiter, waves of refugees and last not least immigrants or soldiers that found their wifes here.
Regarding textbooks: as a student of the University of Applied Sciences in Bremen, I had access to almost every textbook I needed in PDF format as part of my library account. A quick run to the copy shop and 20 Euros later, I had a textbook that would've been 100+ Euros otherwise. I bought the more important ones directly from the publisher never the less.
About Scholarships: So this is important to me, therefore let me add this to your video:
With the scholarships in Germany you forgot many institutions and foundations that also give out scholarships. The most prominent being the Studienstiftung des deutschen Volkes (the German Academic Scholarship Foundation), Germany's largest, oldest and most prestigious scholarship foundation according to their own website. Their scholarship is not to be confused with the Deutschlandstipendium you mentioned.
With the Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung and the Heinrich-Böll-Stiftung you only mentioned two of the many political foundations that are closely aligned with a certain political party and usually grant scholarships to students who adhere to their political values. The Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung is close to the CDU, the Heinrich-Böll-Stiftung close to the Greens. Then there are the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung (SPD), the Friedrich-Naumann-Stiftung (FDP), the Rosa-Luxemburg-Stiftung (the Left), the Hanns Seidel-Stiftung (CSU) and recently there has been debate around the newly founded Desiderius-Erasmus-Stiftung (AfD).
Then there are religious Foundations that give out scholarships like the Evangelisches Studienwerk Villigst (protestant), the Cusanuswerk (catholic), the Ernst-Ludwig-Ehrlich-Stiftung (jewish) and the Avicenna Studienwerk (muslim).
There is also the Hans-Böckler-Stiftung (union/labour movements) and the Stiftung der deutschen Wirtschaft (economic actors/employer friendly).
Those are the main ones, but then you might find niche foundations that give out scholarships to students with a really specific background.
I only mention this because I was lucky to get a scholarship and during my time at University I met SO MANY BRILLIANT STUDENTS who should have had scholarships too but just weren’t aware of the possibility or didn’t know how to apply or didn’t think they would qualify or maybe thought they weren’t good enough. I want to raise awareness to these foundations because there is free money and so many more would qualify but never apply or are discouraged. SO: whoever student reads this: Applying doesn’t hurt, so, SO many more students could get in and benefit. It is free money, you ARE good enough, GO FOR IT!
I think it would make for an interesting video to talk more about these in the future... tbh as an American conducting my Phd research in Germany, I was first extremely confused by the political party scholarships. As an American, I would worry that there would be political bias or additional scrutiny over my research if it looked influenced by an ideology. But I was surprised that for the large part, this is not the case at all. That being said, as a non-EU citizen I didn't qualify for the vast majority of them, but was very very thankful for the grants I was awarded from the DAAD and the State of Baden Wurttemberg.
Plus, these fellowships are not just €300. That’s just the portion all scholars get, independently of income. There is also the income-based portion that follows the Bafög guidelines for income eligibility and amount, only that it’s a full scholarship, not half loan.
If you don't like the food offerd at one day in germany, you can just go to a private operated (fastfood) restaurant or bakery, wich is possible because usually the campus is basicly a part of the city center
Important point! All the universities I know are embedded into a town. Therefore many features do not have to be offered by the university because they are available at the next corner. Some places like Heidelberg do not even have a campus but the buildings are strewn throughout the town
Würzburg has built something like a campus area recently - still many university buildings are strewn over the town. If you don't want mensa food, you just go elsewhere.
That's not so common as you might think. Both my universities Mainz and Bremen have a dedicated huge campus with very little or nothing spread across town. That's basically true for most universities founded after the war, like said Uni Bremen, or for instance, Kaiserslautern, Saarbrücken, or Hildesheim. Uni Mainz was founded in 1477 but was disbanded during the French occupation and refounded directly after the war. Its campus is really large. Still, there are enough cafeterias and mensas to have a good selection, both privately and publicly operated. Same for Bremen.
But then you are paying out of pocket. US students typically buy a meal plan for the semester which allows them to choose among on-campus cafeterias, but wouldn’t cover off-campus meals.
@@annamc3947 depends on the system. here some meals are cheaper for students because part of the 300 to 500€- fee pays for this. But you do not have to preorder
All of 4 kids (in Germany) got their bachelor and masters degree. They all had no more then around 15000 loans, because of the help of Bafög and Kindergeld and some small jobs they did. They studied some semesters in other countries like Korea, Schweden, the Netherlands (mostly) and England. We as parents are so thankful for the German government how the helped us to let our children study.
Not that surprised about book costs. The most expensive book I bought was one for macroeconomics - 80€ (Book needed for the course, which was typically attended by 400 people.). We used the European international edition of it, which had a note in them that it was illegal to bring them to US/ CA and sell them. Our professor noted that this was because the students there were paying triple the price due to the nonregulated book market there.
And a prime example of market segregation.
Meanwhile in computer science: Book is available as PDF from the university library, and the professor makes sure enough physical copies are on hand for everyone who still needs one. Never had a course with mandatory books. Making materials available for the student was seen as responsibility of the lecturer. If you told one of the CS students at my university they MUST fork out 80€ for a book, there would be riots. I have seen quite some difference between fields like economics, law, chemistry, physics and computer science in terms of how material is handled, with economy/law and computer science seeming to be polar opposites. So I guess book costs heavily depend on your field and university.
Back in my days in Freiburg lots of restaurants around the university had either a cheap "Mittagstisch" or Studentenrabatt. So there was no need for fancy university restaurants as it is not a campus university and you had the entire city at your disposal, from fast food to Michelin star restaurants.
Btw: you can get alcohol at a German student restaurant.
We are a German-American family living in Oregon. We just dropped our daughter off at the University of Cologne to start a Bachelor’s degree. If she had gone to the University of Oregon, we would have been lucky enough to not pay tuition (since we are Public university employees), but even the cost of living for room and board and personal expenses would have been $15,000 for 9 months according to the UO website. On the other hand, we expect her cost of living in Germany even in an expensive city like Cologne (but lucky enough to get a dorm room) to be $1000/month or $12,000/year (since university is year-round there). Then a Bachelors degree is only 3 years. So total cost just for cost of living would be $60,000 at UO and $36,000 in Cologne before you even talk abput tuition!
As you mentioned, the dorm room is a single room. She has her own bathroom and a shared kitchen. Our friends’s kids starting at US universities now often have to share a room with 2 people! It costs $360/month. A private room would have much more expensive in a city like Cologne, more like $500. Also, the Semester Ticket of €300/semester covers the public transportation in all of Northrhine-Westphalia from Aachen to Bielefeld! So this can cover weekend trips as well.
And then there are no non-financial benefits: no mass shootings, no party rapes, even the risk of meningitis is lower since students don’t live on top of each other as much.
Thank you for sharing. I agree about the non financial benefits. I would also add benefit of learning new culture, maybe pick up new language, opportunity to travel Europe etc. We are also planing on sending our daughter to study in Germany. She still has a long time tough.
Date rape doesn’t exist in Germany? I definitely would have that conversation with my daughter wherever she went to college about how to protect herself.
@@annamc3947 statistically the rate of rape is dramatically lower in Germany than the US. I was talking specifically about the frat party/drunk rape culture that is pervasive at many US colleges and not at German universities. Partially, because student liefe is different, partially because Germans tend to have a different attitude towards and education about sex and alcohol.
@@barbaras5550 or they’re just not reporting it. To make a decision about where to study on that basis seems bizarre to me. My daughter went to college in NYC which statistically has a high crime rate. Girls know to travel in groups and have each other’s backs.
@@annamc3947 sure, everybody has their own priorities. For me the priority is that my daughter has a care-free college experience. That includes not being traumatized by active shooter drills (number of gun homicides/year in the US: 10,000, in Germany: 50), being able to go to a college party with the expectation of not being molested or raped, going home by herself because you don’t need to travel in groups, and most of all be dept-free.
I‘m currently studying at the university of cologne and actually never had to pay anything for books. All professors are required to give book recommendations for their lecture but they also admit that these are most often not really necessary. Sometimes students also pass these books around as pdf or we simply get them in our library for free.
This is an awesome comparison. I also feel that you really like the German way of how things are done for the students. My daughter here in the US still has over $41000 in student loan debt at the age of 37 and she has just a regular office job, making $2400 a month. With a 2 bedroom apartment going for a minimum of $1800 a month anywhere in the US, It is impossible to ever have a life. When I went to University in Germany, I even got a "Foerderung" from the Government, meaning I got a monthly allowance that I did NOT have to pay back due to my family situation. Yes, I got paid to go to University. During my internship at Siemens, I got hired right away once I was done with University. I have no idea when and how it went wrong so bad in the US that going to University is just a money pit with no real ROI for the STUDENT...ever.
BTW, my wife, over 60 years old, decided she wanted to finish her Bachelor at UNLV. It is mainly online and still costs her about $4000 a year for just 1 class per semester and when I look over her shoulder, I must admit that the courses are like Realschule/Gymnasium level. I am actually shocked as I personally think it is a scam to be honest to just give a degree that is useless but the university makes a lot of money.
As a foreign student in Germany, my costs were:
- University: 500€/year, includes transportation
- Textbooks: 0€/year
- Housing: 2640€/year, includes electricity and internet
- Food: 1600€/year
- Insurance: 1080€/year
Total costs: 5820€/year
Income: 5400€/year
Of course I had other costs like entertainment and clothing, but I kept those to a strict minimum, and my blocked account drained so slowly that I didn't have problems. Meanwhile there were germans with Bafög (financial aid) who were struggling with finances, I think a huge part comes down to not being willing to sacrifice their quality of life over the period of the studies, for me living within my means but stress free is a higher quality of life
Another thing to note about books in Germany is, that my university had entire sets of books for courses. Some of which had up to 1000 students. Everyone who wanted a book could get on from the "Lehrbuch Sammlung", a special section only for those sets of textbooks.
My uni lib in Germany even ordered an American textbook for a completely new subject for a course with the American book prices per book and gave it to us free of charge as loan book.
Ive never seen books by my studiing daughters. They load all sides and read them on PC. There is no need to buy books
@@Miristzuheiss
e files are not necessary free
@@thodan467 from the sides my daughters take them, they are free. But i dont know nothing about legality🤫
Its a students miracle
@@Miristzuheiss i`m a german student and a have acess to many datatbases form diffrent publisher companys where i can download the books i need for free, this service is provided from the bib
I'd like to add a couple of things: Food: In my experience, it's more common to just buy groceries and cook in Germany than in the US because a lot of dorm buildings only have one community kitchen. Books: You also have to consider the Buchpreisbindung, which means that the price of a book in Germany is set, so most books have a very similar middle-ground price and it's not determined by whoever sells the book. Financing: In Germany you're only allowed a part-time job (20 h/week) when studying full time. However, I know many American students who worked a lot more so they could pay their bills. Also in regards to sholarship: You mentioned the Konrad-Adenauer- and the Heinrich-Böll-Stiftung. Those are two of the 13 Begabtenförderwerke, which will grant sholarship on very specific criteria, for example party affiliation, religious beliefs or just excellent grades.
I think you misunderstand the Buchpreisbindung: The publisher has to set a price for a book and no store is allowed to sell it for lower is the short version of it, so they could sell books for the american prizes.
@@betaich no, I understood it. It creates a more equal level of pricing, though. Not just for the same book, but also for books in general. In my experience, you can buy books for all different price points in the US, while here most books range between 10-30 bucks. (Sometimes more like the mentioned law books, like the Schönfelder.) In the US, I had to buy textbooks for 80$, which would be 25 here
Ah interesting point about financing/work. If I recall correctly, I think my student visa also limited me to working only 20 hours per week (but I think the technical wording was that I could work X number of days in a year). But as a foreign student with a visa, there are often more stringent regulations on work/study balance. Is this a regulation for native-german students as well?
@@TypeAshton Yes, you're only allowed to work a max of 20 h/week. There's only the possibility of a 70-Tages-Vertrag/kurzfristige Beschäftigung, which allows you to work more hours but only for 70 days of the year. It is mostly meant for breaks. You're supposed to focus on your studies and are only allowed to work more if you're a part-time student (or in an Urlaubssemester, I think) because then your focus is work.
@@daphnekruemel Technically you're allowed to work more than 20 hours a week. You would lose your 'student status', so can't work as a Werkstudent, have to pay the normal amount for health insurance depending on your income (instead of the lower student premium), have to pay taxes and so on, so you could end up with less money than if you just worked less than 20 h/week, but it's not forbidden for german citizens.
With the single book per class: back in my days you were usually permitted to copy the relevant sections of the book for your studies at the library. The student pass doubled as copy card.
I am neither an American nor German (I'm Macedonian) but have had the opportunity to study at University campuses both in the USA (SUNY-Fredonia) as well as in Germany (Humboldt- Uni in Berlin as well as Uni-Gießen) and I think I can pretty much compare the infrastructures in both countries from an unbiased point of view:
if you don't want to read further, to summarize it has been my experience that university infrastructures in both countries are pretty much similar and I would concur with the points of the video.
Repetitive as the author, but my takeaways:
What I prefered in the US was the food varieties in the dining halls, and even in the late nineties, when vegetarianism wasn't a thing, there were meat-free options. Mensas in Germany, while ok, did not offer many varieties (everybody joked a about an infamous white sauce is Gießen which was used in literally every dish offered).
Also very important to me: the sports infrastructure was very comparable on all campuses, so I could practice whatever I wanted to.
And yes, it was also a downside of my experience in the US that I had to share a small room with a total stranger- while it was basically ok, I would've much prefered to have had my own room as well as use my own toilet.
And yes, I only owned a bike in Germany whereas in the US, if you wanted to go places you really needed a car, otherwise you were more or less stuck on campus.
Just to add/correct regarding student accomodation in Germany: the buildings don't necessarily belong to the universities directly, but to the Studentenwerk, which are separate organisations. So for example in my city the Studentenwerk and its residence buildings are available to students from 7 different Universities.
Admittedly, my days as a student (in the US and in Germany) are long since past. When a friend told me a couple of years ago how much textbooks in the US cost these days, I had to pick myself up off the floor, so great was my shock! When I was a law student here in the 80s, I spent most afternoons in the library where I could find the commentaries and other reference books I required. The costs of those would have been prohibitive. I did subscribe to a loose-leaf volume of the most important laws. I would receive an update every few months that involved removing some pages and inserting new ones. I think every lawyer in Germany has this collection in the office.
What I have noticed about American universities is why do they have expensive sports clubs? This is all money that the students pay. That's why it's so expensive to study in the United States. If these sports clubs were eliminated, the cost of studying would be much lower. But who knows where some of the money goes, in any case, I suspect, into their own pockets.
@@haggardjude8880 Better invest in a degree to notice spam better.
reporting all those spam bots is really a struggle...
@@V100-e5q where can I get that one? i accidentally reported you as well 😅
I think a lot of the money goes to the professors, because... there's a weird system in place. In the US universities are seen as investigation centers and the products of the research are patented by the universities, so they pay a lot to professors to do research (not to teach) and they profit from the research too. (I'm not american. This is stuff I've read and I may be wrong)
@@germangarcia6118 , there is a nugget of truth in your assertion but it is more nuanced. Public research universities do have more of their faculty doing research than teaching nowadays but that is a more recent trend. During my time at university several decades ago, all faculty taught undergraduate courses as well as doing research. Now, those courses are often taught by graduate students or adjunct (part-time) faculty. Part of this is the result of needing to secure grants for their graduate students and the “publish or perish” mentality of those seeking a tenured position.
Aber du kannst doch auch in ein schickes Restaurant neben der Uni essen gehen :D habe ich ständig gemacht. Mittags ist das Essen überall auch schön günstig. Wir haben das früher ständig gemacht, um mal dem Mensaessen zu entgehen :)
Even if this video is about university, I guess it's worth mentioning that the BAFöG also applies to students on trade schools etc.
Und es gibt "Schüler" - Bafög (hab ich damals bekommen, damals ohne Rückzahlung wie es heute ist, weiß ich nicht)
Hello Ashton, happy Sunday!
In my opinion the students in America are seen more soon as customers than students.
I' ll always forget to give you a big aplause for your well researched deep dives into to each topic. This time I did not forgot it. Best regards Ralf
You can always go back to a video and check the thumbs-up-button.
@@urlauburlaub2222 in the USA the 'parasites' are called 'banks'. And they are worse than the parasite students, I dare to say because they have enough money to buy influence and politicians
@@urlauburlaub2222 the US system attracts way, way more parasites, to be fair. That's why its so expensive.
Also, what definition of scholarship are we using?
Re: books - when I was still back in university, it was usual to order books for a whole course, saving money "by numbers". Like, when I needed some books for my biology course, EVERYBODY in the course ordered those books, so we got a cost of maybe €15 per book.
I love all of your videos but I think this one is my favorite. I am particularly interested in this subject and here you are feeding all the info to me. I appreciate that you include so many facts and statistics and references. I had to pause it few times to not to miss any details and to analyze the tables. Such an informative video. I can’t thank you enough for compiling all in this elegant short form. And then the part of the mentality of education funding in Germany vs USA made me almost emotional. Thank you again ❤❤❤
Really glad that you found this to be helpful ♥️♥️♥️
There is a big difference in studying law in the US and Germany. “Case law” makes a big difference when it comes to actuality.
The whole system of Germany's political foundations (like FES, HBS, or the two you mentioned) would probably be an interesting topic for your non-german viewers. It is very particular to Germany.
Yes! This was VERY interesting for me when I first arrived.
First of all your video was very comprehensive, informative and to put it shortly just great!
I think with your comment on which kind of ROI is expected in Germany and the US you hit the nail on the head. And I would say that you can extend this argument to other topics like healthcare, welfare and so on. In my opinion Germany is more community centered/ views the whole society as one community while the US may be more individualistic or centered around local communities. Although it seems to me that some people here in Germany forgot that in nearly every individual success there is some part provided by society. May it be infrastructure, legal certainty, safety or (matching this video) the education of the successor him/herself or maybe her/his employees.
A word about England (education is a devolved area so Wales Scotland and NI are different)
Students attend three terms a year varying from 8 to 12 weeks.
Tuition fees are capped in the UK by the government who pick up the balance. The cap is also a floor. Most students finance this by government controlled loans from a commercial student loans. Currently the fee element for a three year degree is £30,000. In addition the loan will cover a proportion of the living costs based on parental income. For parents on low or no income a bursary is provided, and receipt of the bursary opens up additional funding from the university.
My sons finished university 12/9 years ago.
One studied at one of the ancient universities. Accommodation was provided for each of his three years at a reasonable rent first year was in college central to the town, but was for the terms only as the accommodation is used for conferences in the vacations. Meals are provided in college,breakfast and dinner being paid for termly though students can sign out for meals. There are no cooking facilities in the college for the first year. 2nd year + are in flats shared by 3 students with shared bathrooms and a living room/kitchen. At the end of his first year his exam results earned him a scholarship which was the maximum permitted of £320 per annum plus a free gown two free dinners in hall per week, and a termly book grant. Book prizes were also available for exam performance. Of course only some 10% of the year were awarded scholarships or exhibitions
My other son attended one of the new universities that emerged from the polytechnics. Fees were the same as for his brother. His first year was in a university flat on the campus. This had en-suite bathroom and shared kitchen / living room. These flats had been built using private finance and were much more expensive than the donor financed accommodation at Oxbridge. Years two and three were in shared houses rented on the market. These were 12 Month rentals that he made use of because he worked the long vacation on an industrial placement. On completion of the placement he was offered a job with a bursary from the employer. This bursary exceeded his brother's scholarship emoluments including free meals book grants and gown!
Neither boy worked a part time job during term time but worked in the summer vacation. The one at Oxbridge did some light activities paid by the college as shifts in the college bar and the other served in the OTC paid as part of the Army Reserve for a year. But these were both marginal.
Because of my income about half the living costs were added to their loan and half financed by us their parents which was affordable.
I believe they have both now paid off their student loans. However the cap was closer to £3,000 per year rather than £9,000 as today.
Today increasing numbers of students of vocational, normally STEM, subjects take a graduate apprenticeship during which they combine work and studies. The apprentices receive a salary and the university fees are covered.
There is a big miss in your research!
I’m a German who studied in Germany and struggled financially.
1. If you live in a big city (I studied in Cologne) cost of living is significantly higher!
2. My mother was supposed to pay me 600 Euro per month according to the Bafög committee. But that was her entire budget she had to live in, so I waved it.
3. Because of that I had to work a lot (30 hours a week due to very high cost of living) which resulted in not be able to be a full time student and after 4th semester My Bafög was cut off because I took to long!
From that point on I had to work even more!
I would’ve preferred a loan so I can study full time and be done faster.
No system is perfect!
Another great video Ashton, you really have a great way of explaining complex matters and more importantly break them down to a societal level (I.e. Germany working for its future/long term and the US seemingly just looking to extract as much money from people).
Keep up the excellent work!!
Thank you so much!!
When I went to university, I had a car. While I walked mostly to classes, I drove home perhaps once a month.
I studied in Braunschweig, where is no campus and the buildings for certain areas of learning are relatively wide-spread. But I lived very near most of my classes. Just once a week I should have walked further.
Very nice video again. I have a thesis which might explain some of the differences in costs for students - especially things like high rates on student loans in the US and high costs for accommodations on US campuses. As I understand it - please correct me if I'm wrong - a college degree is pretty much the only formal job qualification in the US. So either you have a collage degree or you are considered formally untrained, even if you did some form of apprenticeship in your craft. In other words, in the US a plumper is a person who learned their trade from another plumper - for better or worse. In Germany on the other hand we (Yes, I'm partisan. Take everything I say with a grain of salt ;)) we have the dual education system which combines an apprenticeship with trade school in a three and a half years long training which leads to official job degree which again is approved by the state. So in Germany the same plumper is a person with a least 42 months of training in plumbing but also in things like heating, solar energy and air conditioning. They can choose further education and achieve a masters degree (not the same as a masters degree in the US) which allows them to train young talents in their profession. The result of this system is that in Germany even an OK plumper likely will earn more money both per year and over their lifetime than many university graduates. To - slowly - get to my point: I'm not saying that the American or the German system is better. But while (as I understand it) in the US colleges basically have a monopoly on professional training, in Germany young people have options which way to go. Sure, US colleges and universities compete with each other but there is no other system of formal education they have to compete with. I wouldn't be surprised if this de facto monopoly on professional education leads to high student costs for example for a dorm room or for a student loans. What is the young person supposed to do? Go to another school with equally high prices for accommodations and with the same rates for loans (I'm aware that it's not the school who gives the loan)? Disclaimer: This is just a thought. I never experienced higher education in the US first hand. I would be happy to hear your thoughts.
Single rooms are quite normal in German dorms and cheaper. In Germany in the cities it makes no sense for a student to have a car because they are just too expensive.
In addition to dedicated student dorms, many students also team up in small groups and rent a regular normal flat together - flat-sharing. It's called Wohngemeinschaftin German (or WG for short). It's a *very* common thing to do, and has been for many decades.
In my expierience - which is a little bit dated since I'm on the older side - a car was nice to have but not necesssary cause you have good public transportation in most citys in germany and it's paid with your semester fee.
But it is a good thing to have a drivers license, cause it opens up a lot of jobs you can do during breaks.
Rearding the eating at a Uni... In Germany there is a saying "Der Student geht solange zur Mensa bis er bricht". You can translate it as "the student goes to the Mensa (=cafeteria) till he breaks, with the intended wordplay that the word "brechen" in german means breaking and vomiting. So if we are talking about food you know ...
But from my experience - I studied in Hamburg - the food was cheap and good and if you didn't have the time to go there: the next Döner shop was right around the corner.
My best Mensa memory is that they served Glühwein (=hot wine) during the winter time. We were 6 or 7 students who had the same courses for the whole day - practicle studies in the morning and lecture for the next day in the afternoon.So we eat lunch in the Mensa five days a week and the first one who put his fork down went and get hot wine for everyone (90 Cents for a cup almost the size of a red solo cup). When the lecture started everyone was 5 to 6 cups in (at least) and the last one was "to go" so we had something to do during the lecture.
I still don't know how we survived this semester cause we were between tipsy and hammered every day, depending how fast we could eat and how many "Cup runs" we had.
Ah man, I remember too once that either and the beginning or the end of the semester (I can't quite recall because it was my first year) the Mensa served beer to celebrate. That would never happen in our conservative state in the USA. I think when I graduated from Mizzou they gave us a token for 1 single cup of beer and the line was so outrageous on the quad that it wasn't even worth it.
In Bonn for Pharmacy and Medcine you actually could get all your books at the library. They had all books needed in the appropiate numbers. Nevertheless you would usually buy one or two books for a total up to 80-100€ on your own so you could mark passages and make notations.
As for food Mensas are the by far cost efficient way to get food at a german university. As the universities and sometimes even faculties are spread over a alarge part of the city you have a lot other options if you want more variety. And especially in areas with many students and faculties there are usually a lot of of resturant that cater especially to students.
Hi Ashton, another great video!
Regarding dorms and cafeterias, this also depends on whether the campus is spread around or not. Many universities were founded after the war, and usually, they are the ones with a big campus. Out of my head, Bremen, Hildesheim, Kaiserslautern, or Saarbrücken come to mind. Both my universities Mainz and Bremen have large campuses. Mainz was founded in the 1400s and disbanded under French occupation, but reopend in 1946 on new grounds with enough space to expand. On each of those campuses, you'll find some ugly high rise with student apartments and a significant number of cafeterias, cafes, or sometimes restaurants.
Ah interesting (and excellent) point!
My personalexperiences on two topics. First the free transportation (semesterticket) in the early nineties. At that time most students had their own car, because as mentioned most of the don't live on the campus. When I studied the university had about 16000 students, but only 2000 places to live on the campus. So the university needed a large parking lot. Now the number of students nearly doubled and the former space of of parking lots was used for new buildings. There were a lot of discussions introducing the semsterticket, because everyone had to pay for it, but not everyone wanted to use is. It even went to court. The next thing was, what it would cover. One option was, that it would only contain the local bus. At the end with higher costs it was extended the trains in the area (150-200Km). This turns out to be a good way as the reduction of parking lots shows.
Second is, that parents have to pay for the children. Yes, parents are more responsible for their children here as the get Kindergeld for years to invest in their education. When I started studying, we were a group of about 8 students, because this makes it easier than doing it alone. And one of them was struggling, because the parents didn't want to pay, because she left home a year ago in a fight. But her father owned a company with several employees and of course made enough mones to pay for it. So she gets the money from the social welfare office and they went to court against the father. She didn't have to take care for that.
I think most students have three sources for their costs: BaFoeg, parents and working. Some get more from the parents, some work more,..., but at the end there's a good chance, the amount for work can be combined with studying and you loan be affordable to pay back.
I like the way you go for the extra mile in your videos. You dig very deep into the details like a true academic.
Now college students often download books or buy them on Facebook from other students who took the class last term. My daughter (2021 NYU grad) spent very little on books. I spent far more as a law student at UCLA in the 80s. Then we were required to purchase books, often written by the professor, who would make extra money by assigning his own book. It was quite a racket.
Parents in Germany can deduct the cost of their children's studies from their taxes, if they pay 1000 EUR per month, then they don't have to pay taxes on it, which is up to 400 EUR savings, so they pay less than the amount they give to their children. Those who can't pay that should get Bafög, but of course there are always those who are right in between.
Ah great to know!
It's really easy to spot the campus building in Germany, all other things aside - the different styles of loud music echoing through the streets is a dead giveaway that a lot of youth are without supervision.
Something easily forgotten are the newly published papers that can be found in the university libraries, often for free (or you have to show your student-card). I was in the libraries when ever i could. Reading books or papers that sound interesting. From archeology over mathematics, physics to sociology. I would walk into a random section grab a book and see if it was interesting. I should have done more studying instead. 🙂
I never lived on campus because it was close to home so I could save on housing costs. Had my own room I never had to share with anyone else. Driving was a rule because I needed to get around and in the pre Internet era, downloading study material simply wasn’t an option. It was necessary to travel to distant campuses to get research done that couldn’t be accessed at my campus. All of that made for an interesting student life.
Why is it cheaper in Germany to study, because the German greed is not as big as in the US of A.
Best example, I was a TA at a Florida University for a while, and there I noticed that some professors wrote their own Text books (which is cool I guess) and those Professors requiired their students to purchase their books for each course. Now how does it work in the US to make money for books each year? Simple you bring out a new edition each year, that way your students need to purchase the correct edition for that year, hindering the RE-USE of books from years prior.
You see the greed is real, also some classes do not disclose the books you need until a few days before starting your semester, meaning you cannot search around (like on Amazon) to see if you get books cheaper (and yes you will get them cheaper on Amazon by 50% on some occations) .
There is something I need to ad.
I study law in Germany and I am not buying new textbooks every semester. Infact I never even bought one textbook (with an exeption to the legal texts) ever.
We normally have big data banks completly free for most of the secondary legal texts you would need. Anything else you can find at the libary and you can just scan it.
The only thing which has to be up to date are the legal texts, but you can also find them in the internet. Only in exams you would need a new textbook.
Also here the system is different. Normally (not in the beginning but after a few semesters) you would by books where you can take every single page out and then just the new pages.
In total that would cost you about 100 € per semester. Depending on how many changes there were.
So even as a law student you don't pay a lot for books.
But I also think that changed in the last few years because there are more internet sources.
Watching your videos shows me, Germany is really fancy, fair, smart and social.
I am really lucky, beeing born and living here!
To foreigners: "Studentenwerk" is a corporation that shall offer services for students - like the dorms and Mensa.
Also: What is blamed in Germany: There is only a very small number of dorms in relation to the number of students available.
On Top, yes these dorms are relative cheap but also very basic. I had a friend in Cologne. Her dorm was some 12m² including bath. A table was attached to the wall. most time she sat on her bed (too high) at the table. A chair could only be places at the side of the table.
On the other hand: Most students look for those, because renting a room in this cities might cost between 2 and 4 times a dorm (at least).
I lived about 50km away from my university and used the train to go there every day. 15min walk, 45min train, 15min walk (could've used the bus at that point) and that for about 5 years. The semester ticket went from 150€ to about 170€ in that time.
Universities get the headlines, but it's worth noting that in Germany there are also Fachhochschule (colleges of applied science) as we as other opportunities to gain work skills and experience; apprenticeships, job training, etc., so that not everyone 'needs' to go to university to get a job. You mention that a well-skilled workforce is the goal and that is true however the majority of that workforce in Germany didn't go to uni. I think this is a big difference that also needs to be looked at. Great video series nonetheless. It's clear you put a ton of time into these and I do enjoy them!
21:50 onward: on the point comparison between the two aproaches:
US: Student invests in his/her individual success
Germany: Gouvernment invests in the nation's success
Thank you so much for your well made and in depth analyses. They reallyhelp to pit some things into perspective. Keep up the good work!
Greetings from the Ruhr district!
Thank you so much!
Also to mention: Since the universities buildings are more or less spread you simply NEED a bicycle for your study - to get from on lesson to the next in time. I heard from Aachen - there are hardly 2 lessons in one building.
There is a great feature in from Deutschlandfunk Hintergrund "Studieren in Armut - Kein BAföG, Inflation und hohe Mieten" (2022/09/28) that's worth listening to understand the reason, why the BAföG is used less in recent years and how parents are involved in financing a university degree.
One of my professor from Germany, who said, that often students would rip out the important pages from the texts at the library in Germany.
My time at university was decades ago and I commuted from my parent’s home. I got a top notch education for a bargain price but that was before the concept of the “university experience” became stylish. Now, it seems in the US that students are pampered, viewed as customers, and more concerned with the university’s amenities than the actual classroom/lab education and expect that they’re guaranteed good grades because they’re paying big dollars. That is a far cry from my freshman honors physics class where the professor asked us to look to the student to our left and right and understand one of them might not be there for the spring semester. We were expected to work the problem sets and pass exams to receive a passing grade. The idea that it would take 6 years or so years on average to attain a bachelors degree was lunacy to us.
One recent incident making headlines in the US put this all in perspective for me. Reading about the mind-boggling incident of a group of pampered students being unhappy with their organic chemistry grade leading their university to non-renew the contract of a retired Princeton University professor that actually wrote THE text book on organic chemistry. They claimed their grade didn’t reflect the “effort” they put into it. They seem to be under the impression that it is not the mastery of a course’s material that earns you a passing grade but how much you tried. I’m not sure such a thing would happen in Germany but it is indicative of why so many US taxpayers without college degrees don’t want to support students and public universities with taxpayer funding. In the real world, these non-degree holding people realize it is the product you produce or the tasks you complete that earns you your paycheck, not if you made an “effort.” The end result is students have to pay for their education with little help from general society.
That professor taught at NYU, a private university. I know someone who took his class. While brilliant, he was very very tough and hated pre-med students. It’s a balancing act, but when a University has many students failing a key pre-med class, it’s a problem for recruitment and retention.
I was studying at a private Fachhochschule in Germany. We once had a teacher for marketing, whose contract was cancelled after a year. While the Fachhochschule had many people teaching, who have been working in the field to also teach practical information, that one teacher kinda, well, didn't do a good job. After each quarter, all students were asked to rate the professors. That guy probably got a pretty bad rating. I remember him telling me that it wouldn't matter if I didn't partake in the practice exam (I had a family event at that exact same date), He said I was good enough to finish with top marks. I actually failed the exam, like many others. The things asked didn't match what he taught us. We had to repeat the exam as an oral exam and most students did pass then. But it were other professors taking the exam. So, all in all it was good that his contract wasn't prolonged, as his teaching methods weren't too good.
So, not prolonging a contract may be due to many factors. The teaching needs to be good, the way the exams are taken needs to be good. Students should be taught what is needed for the exams. Also, there shouldn't be any biases, no matter on what they are based. A tough professor is one thing, but a professional of a field doesn't have to be a good teacher. As in your example: That professor could have been the biggest expert of the field, but if he can't teach, he just shouldn't. There's a huge difference in research etc. and teaching the results of said research.
Meals in America: hamburgers, tacos and sandwiches.
Meals in Germany: noodles with spinach, salad and fruit.
I have studied Industrial Engineering in Berlin and Business in St. Andrews. I have NEVER (!) bought any textbook. Either the lecturers had their own scripts for the class (which is the absolute norm) or we were required to read up-to-date journals, which were found online, via sciencedirect or else.
Love the Animal House reference clips
Hahahaha FINALLY someone commented about these. Love that movie, a great classic.
The financing of education explains partly why productivity in Germany is higher than in the U.S. More people can afford higher education. Maybe the gain more than covers the expense for the public sector, then it becomes a win-win situation.
The percentage of people going to university is a lot higher in the US. But that's because Germany has an extensive system of vocational training. So you don't need a degree for a lot of jobs. Though there is a noticeable trend of more people studying than learning a trade.
When I was in uni (Spain) I had a car, but I didn't use it to go to uni. It was 15km away from my home, but I took a bus. I don't like driving so early in the morning, I rather just sit half-asleep in the bus until I get there. My car was for the weekends.
Very common is WG (Wohngemeinschaft) means multiple persons share a apartment.
When someone leaf the rest will decide together who take that place.
This interviews with the future room-mates can be like Spanish inquisition.
They used to always show in news in Canada of German parents who loss in court of their kids still billing billed if child keeps changing major.
The cost German students have to cover are mainly the normal costs of daily life. Universities in Germany are generally tuition free with only comparatively quite small fees, but that does not mean that they offer free board and room, too, or pay for the student's hobbies and partying. Students in Germany have to cover their own cost of life, but only little cost of education.
Well put!
I remember one semester at Uni in the US my books cost me almost $500 and that was in 1993. Usually I was able to get used books costing roughly $200 per semester.
One semester I recall my books touching 1,000 USD - but many other semesters it could be cheaper, especially if I rented them online and not through the University bookstore.
I studied law in a northern city in Germany and our university always updated their collections as soon as a new edition was released. They also often gave away old editions for free to clear up stock. Also the universities always have contracts with the publishers regardless of the field of study so you can access the common most current textbooks online for free. You just need to use your university e-mail to access the content. So you really never need to purchase a textbook here if you cannot afford it.
Publishers in the US are there to make profits, it is not about making contracts with universities to give out free books. At some Community Colleges you might get the text books included in the tuition and by using your email it might provide you acess to a student version of certain software for free.
When is studied law in Götiingen, my book costs were not high mostly the law texts and some outdated secound hand commentaries. When done my work i cross checke with new versions in the libary if things had changed. Only for the exames i had a new set of books.
I am from Austria (neighbor to germany), I am a student and I receive study grants.
The amount of my study grant depends on my eligibility, my age and other factors, e.g. the fact that I am married, my husband has his own income, that I have children or that I have an annual pass for public transport. I'm older than students usually are when they start and I've worked for a number of years before that, so I'm no longer entitled to support from my parents. That's why the state steps in because I've supported myself long enough and have already paid taxes and that's why I get a "self-support scholarship" (Selbsterhalter:innen-Stipendium)
It is made up of my study grant plus a bonus for my public transport annual pass and support for my daughter’s childcare costs, which means that I only end up with 10.5 euros per month (no, that’s not a typo) [instead 160.5 euros per month] for day care: And if I add everything up and divide it by 12 (months), I get a total of 1852.00 per month, 12 times a year, tax-free, net, without having to pay anything back.. and so I definitely don't have any stress when studying.
This is covered by the taxes that I have already paid or/and will pay in the future.
Ich bin meistens mit dem Fahrrad zur Uni, ab und zu mit dem Bus (Semesterticket) und bei schlechtem Wetter mit dem Auto (immer Probleme, einen Parkplatz zu finden). Fahrrad war ideal, wenn Kurse über den Tag in verschiedenen Uni-Gebäuden stattfanden, da ja diese in der Stadt verteilt lagen. Finanzierung teils durch Eltern (hauptsächlich für Miete in eigener kleinen Wohnung, kein Studentenwohnheim), teils durch BAFöG und teils durch Nebenjobs (mal in der freien Wirtschaft, mal als HiWi in der Uni). Ein Studentenausweis bringt häufig Vergünstigungen, insbesondere bei Eintritten und auch bei Kneipen.
I studied in Leipzig and I actually loved the mensa there, so as in the US, every university is different. We have different places in the city, but the largest at the main campus has everything. A vegan and vegetarian meal every day, also different each day, a meat and fish one, often pizza and Asian style food and a sort of barbeque, which operates like a take away and a bar where you can grab fresh smoothies or any kind of dessert. The other mensas didn't have this great variety, but a vegetarian option was always there. You also use your student card, which also serves as the semester ticket, to load up money and with which you can buy then at the check out. But from friends at mine I also know how bad other mensas at other universities can be . It's highly interesting to see how this is operated in the US.
With the online account of my university I get free access to PDFs of many scientific publications and books, because of a contract between Springer and my university
To clarify this: The mentioned "Springer" is the Springer Science+Business Media company, not the one with the bad newspapers.
I studied in Germany and the UK. I've always had at least two jobs and my parents luckily paid my rent for me. I had a scholarship to cover the fees for my PhD programme in the UK but still worked roughly 25-30 hrs/week to pay for living costs.
EDIT: Germany tried to introduce general tuition fees about 14 years ago when I was still in university. There were protests, strikes and even quite a number of universities were occupied by students and ..... let's just say, there are no more general tuition fees in Germany today.^^
When I started my vocational training with 18 (and had my own appartment) I transfered the responsibility Kindergeld to my hands. Just a signed formular by my parents and after that it was "mine" and I could tell to which bank account it goes.
If you have no good reasons for your own appartment the government can send you back to your parents home until you are 25.
When the students ask the goverment for BAföG ( Bundesausbildungsförderungsgesetz - Federal Training Assistance Act for students ) the students and parents then have to show their wealth (savings, possessions, etc.).
If they have to much the students got no support from the goverment.
One more thing about the book situation: in Munich (and I guess, that is similar in most big universities in Germany) you do not have to buy any book, because the universities have subscriptions from the publishing companies, which allow all the students and other university members to get the digital copies of the books we would need for free. Of course if you want to study with a printed version, you would have to get it from the library or to buy it by yourself.
Scripts. Ie materials created directly for the lecture are usually either provided free of charge or for a minimal charge of a few Euro per Script (priniting cost)
The german Mensa real costs for a meal is the cost for guests - and without any profit for the mensa (not foreseen for a mensa), the prize for employees is reduced, as per law, the employer can pay an amount of the prize for his employees taxfree. The difference for the students and pupils of the students pays the gouvernment.
Great video! If you don’t qualify for BAföG, there is also loans from the German development bank KfW available, which have similar interest rates to American student loans and you only need to prove your student status to be eligible.
The university where I studied I has two dining places. One is the normal cafeteria, but there is also a fancier place that is a bit more expensive, but has far more choices, better presentation, higher quality, etc. Enough to compete with some restaurants. They won several country wide awards.
Me and most of my co students did not had a car. Its simple not needed. We had a bike :) Thats back in the 90's
My province (Alberta) used to have a system close to the Bafog.
Very good overview and comparison thank you! I went to a top ten liberal arts college (Middlebury - now costs 72k/yr !) and then went to WashU for my doctorate (it was free and they paid me a stipend of 20+k/yr). If you study STEM in the USA for your doctorate you can get it for free and get paid to study. Just something for the Germans to know - it's not all crazy expensive.
Yes there are ways around it. I got my master's for "free" since I worked as a teaching/research assistant and was also offered a teaching position to offset my tuition if I conducted my PhD at the University of Kansas. Honestly, as a non-EU citizen it is difficult to qualify for scholarships or grants in Germany, as many have an EU citizenship pre-requisite.
Here in Berlin back when I was a student in the 1980s, most Studentenwohnheime were inhabited mainly by foreign students, especially POCs, who in those days had little chance of finding a place on the general housing market because of racism. The number was always woefully insufficient, and nowadays private companies have started building student housing in small quantities, and it is of course much more expensive. There is one of those buildings near where I live where a mini-apartment starts at €699.
4:20 Dormatories exist in Germany as well, they're just not that common. While I never lived in one I know quite a feew people who have...and all of them agree that studying is much more difficult there because there's always a party going on.
I wouldn't say that dorms are the cheapest option - living in a WG (Wohngemeinschaft) can be quite affordable too depending on the city and number of people sharing the costs. I lived in a WG for 4 years with 3 friends (so we where 4 people in total) which made the appartment very affordable.
There's a huge problem with scholarships in the USA btw. They are fine if you receive a scholarship from an academic institution, the state or a company that is aiming at offering you a job once you finished your studies, however many of them are also offered because you're good at sports....and that is a problem unless you try to become a sports teacher or something. College sports are huge in the USA, however these students can rarely focus on their actual studies.
Athletic scholarships only go to a select few. They’re not a big source of college funding. Only those at the very top can expect it to lead to a career in sports. Most student athletes are just in it for the scholarships.
Your description of our idea in Germany revolving around higher education is on point.👍
Thank you!
The thought of ROI (return on investment) actually does not often cross my mind as a German, it is more like: "Am I considering it worth the investment at this time?". The latter thought includes many details that are hard (if not even impossible) to count. Looking back at decisions thirty years later (or more) often shows my gut feelings of that time were right. (The bad decisions I simply forget about). And that in turn makes me look at money I spend and spent for taxes or insurances in a much more positive way. I am just giving back a bit of what was given to me some decades ago. And I am giving back according to my possibilities, not by accounting for what I got.
I studied in Göttingen (Niedersachsen) from 2010 to 2014, so I had to pay around 500€ per semester. The lenght of study for that electrical engineering degree is 3 years but I had an arrangement with a company nearby where I could work in the time I wasn't present in the university. Its called "duales Studium" and is meant to combine studying at an university and make an apprenticeship at a company at the same time. So I had to split the first two semester so I can take half the classes and work half the weekdays. That made me spend one additional year but therefore the company paid the 500€ per Semester and I had a job with 25 (paid ;) ) vacation days and an monthly income of around 700€. Additional to that, I lived the first two years at my parents so I didn't have anything to pay for in the first two years. After that I shared an appartment with my girlfriend, so I had to spend a little bit (around 350€/month) for rent. $1400 for a student appartment seems very expensive. I live in a two-story house with 140m² right now and pay less ;)
I also never bought a single book. We had an account at the Springer Verlag automatically with our university account. So, at least from that source, I could download and print any book of any field they offered for free. That was all I needed at least.
But nice video :) Looking forward to the next one
Ok, I am 49 now, so my university time is some time ago. My Mensa experience was extremly different and much like my mothers. The discribed Food situation at a german university here would be heaven in my time. I never had to buy a single book, but had high copy costs.
Yeah, I've always been puzzled why the US Federal government's regulation on all federally consolidated loans (undergrad and grad plus) preventing private lenders from taking them over at lower interest rates while charging 5-7.8% interest. It's one of the highest interest loan rates (higher than home or auto loans). For reason's you mentioned, interest should be near 0% for those making the standard payments and slowly increase up to say 3% for people who aren't making payments (unless they can show financial hardship). That way it incentivises people to pay off their loans, without the federal government profiting off from high interest rates, which only further sink future earners. But for the government to have the highest rates and also prohibit private lenders from taking over the loan seems like a scam and a backward one at that :)
10000% agree.
For me as a German and former student it was a bit of eye-opening by this well-done video that a) US universities run their own spaces to live (apartments etc.) and b) students are required to live there. I do not know any university in Germany which offers such an acommodation.
The german student's apartments are mostly run by the Deutsches Studentenwerk, a state-run non-profit umbrella organization for student affairs in Germany, separated and indepently of any university. If you want an apartment from the local Studentenwerk, you basically only need to be a matriculated student in the respective city, no matter in which university of the city you study. Or you can take your own apartment or shared apartment, as you like it - the university does not take care of this.
The second effect for me is that I can comprehend those scenes in Hollywood movies of dormitories, campus life and more of that culture which does not happen in Germany in that form,
I think you missed a very important fact about Bafög: If you're unemployed after university or can't afford paying your rates the payments of your rates can be suspended until you're able to pay them back again.
In Europe we have cities 😅 ;) So there you can just rent a condo on the free market
ha interesting, i did not know that german parents are mandated to financially step in during studies. And I am quite sure my parents never thought about that. It is just kind of normal way of thinking over here . At least as a student myself I thought so and perceived it like that. It is just what I thought was "selbstverständlich" that if possible you support your own family.
afaik parents have to pay for studies or ausbildung til the age of 27. so if you start over again and again, there must be a limit to the costs your parents have to pay for you.
books: every seminar had a handapparat in the library. all the books you needed you could find there and they could not be taken outside. so you almost never had to buy books for your studies.
It seems Canada is leaning toward the US. We really don’t have full private Universities. It is cheaper to stay in your home province but you cant go to anouther for not that much more, especially if the program is of better quality. However, cost of living can be substantial. In most in major centre’s, cases more than tuition.
It is important to mention that FAFSA is need based, and although many students fund their own education, if the student is under 24 yo and their parents make above the threshold, they will not qualify for funding even with no contributions from the parents. Also, the program’s scholarship portion is limited at way below the tuition, anything above that is some sort of need based student loan, the biggest portion of which is non-subsidized.
On my first year, I received a FAFSA offer of $300 in a loan, but no other type of funding as my parents made enough to fund my tuition, but by then, I was already independent and living on my own for quite some time, and had to fill out legal forms to become independent and receive the $1200 in funding per quarter. That was still not enough to fund the tuition, and I had to work full time for the most part of my undergraduate years… but I was lucky enough to find jobs within my field and graduated with 4.5 years of experience… but many of my friends had to find jobs at coffee shops and fast food restaurants, besides my international friends who were unable to obtain work authorization, every one of my university friends worked a job, and many had to work full time.
This is an excellent point and something I personally also dealt with. Interestingly FASFA will also base your financial assistance on your parent's "net worth" and not necessarily their yearly income. My dad is a farmer, so he has a lot of "worth" tied up in machinery, equipment and land... but the amount he makes at the end of the year, after paying off operating loans, is a tiny fraction of (about 2-3%). Unfortunately, their calculators don't take this into consideration and I didn't get any assistance for my bachelors besides an 8% interest rate loan from the government.
On the other hand, a professional graduate in USA can earn a lot of money. I remember numbers of 50k $ per year or more for 50% of the graduates.
By the way, the Heidelberg castle is not in the Black Forest though the view is nice.
BTW: BAFöG has been a loan only since 1982. Before that BAFöG receivers didn't have to pay back anything.
Another issue that has been mentioned a to lately is, that in the US, students are often told that a college education is the only way to get a good job (since there are few apprenticeship programs) - and so quite a few graduate with useless degrees and a lot of debt on top of that.
I had the same thought. In the US colleges and universities compete with each other but they don't have a second formal system of professional education to compete with like in Germany. There is basically a monopoly on formal job training in the US. My guess is that this leads to at least some of the high costs for students.
Shortly say: Yes they are! And If they can't pay, you will be f****d up and have to work for your study or in my case your trainee! That's the reason why my oldest one goes working since she is 13 years old!
Sehr interessant.
Es gibt viele WGs, aber das war wie etwas, was ich wollte. Ich bin von zuhause in die Hochschule gependelt, habe in einer normalen Wohnung gewohnt und auch ein Semester in einem Studentenwohnheim. Ich würde die Wohnung empfehlen.
Nur aus Neugierde: Hast Du noch Kontakt zu deiner Zimmergenossin von damals?
Ah yes the book thing. I almost forgot. Those books are made in thailand, and there was one guy who bought them locally at a very low price and then sold them at about half the normal price. Needless to say, the publishers sued the shit out of him until a US court decided that it was his right to trade his private property..... Meanwhile, I dont really need books because almost all of the information is on the lecture slides but even if I do, I can get them online for free. I think the Universities should be forced to include such costs in the tuition fees. At the very least, then the students would get an accurate idea of what the true costs are, and maybe some would stop insiting on fleecing their students with ultra expensive books.
i dont think the US will change their student loan scheme. its just way too beneficial for the companies to have it this way... its way easier to control and force new employees the way you want to, because they need their jobs way more with a high debt allready burdening them down
USA was cheap before Ronald Reagan, 1yr Tuition was only $900! I lived at home, used the bus, we bought books direct $150 the year 5X $30…
Uni Mainz was free for me dorm on campus w/private room ~30$/ month ditto for Mensa and beer was a buck a bottle at down stairs kiosk.. Books were all checked out of Library, free.
Then USA grad school hit, Tuition was out-of-state $10,000, 10x more than undergrad…. Books were $150 per class .. student loans at end were $50,000 and I worked on campus..
I vote for the German way….