This BJJ Position is Effective but Destroys Your Neck & Back
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ม.ค. 2023
- Recently I got a question about whether or not inverting is a necessity for a Brazilian Jiu-jitsu practitioners' game. Meaning they have to learn it. She asks because she's been messing around with the position and finds it's hurting her neck.
So, in this video I address the situation and answer about whether or not you must invert in order to be good at BJJ.
If you're someone who's struggling with the same situation, then I hope the video gives you a useful perspective to chew on for your training.
-Chewy
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I’m almost a black belt, and most of my injury occurred after I turned purple belt and started doing berimbolo/imanari stuff. Had two incidents where someone collapsed above me and I couldn’t feel my hands for weeks. I’ve since abandoned the inverting game. Trying to make it to black belt without anymore injuries.
Take it easy and best of luck🤞
Myself being 215 and competing at 205. Had a coach for about 2 years that was all bolos all the time, drilling wall spins and granbys every day and my neck was a total disaster for my entire time with him
Thought it was just how my body is and I'll live with it
Its completely a non-issue since he left the picture, havent inverted since
Ugh wallspins and granbys all day, my professor is the same.
Xande R. says the same thing because of his neck. I do think it's superior for guard retention compared to turtling, dog fighting, etc. I have major neck issues and it's originally what made me quit BJJ for several years. I restarted about 1.5 years ago and have recently dabbled with inverting. I try to avoid doing it with larger opponents however. I've gotten better at using my shoulders and my neck hurts less than it used to as it gets stronger and stronger. Also, I recommend the iron neck exercise device in either case. Neck injuries can definitely ruin your ability to do BJJ, so I think Chewy is giving solid advice. We are probably yet to see the full extent of inverting and how it will contribute to long term problems for many practitioners.
Any specific programs for the iron neck youd recommend?
@@BjorsN I just follow the one that comes with it at the moment. There are 8 or so exercises. They seem to cover everything from what I can tell.
I’ve seen spazzy sprawls on someone inverting. No. Thank. You.
I remember when I was in a class at your gym and someone was teaching inverting on a Friday, literally my first time learning inverting and I suffered a back injury, it's highly effective as he proved but it takes a lot of conditioning to use safely and even then has a high risk of injury.
Bjj guys are so out of shape it’s almost scary
@@LOLLYPOPPE This puts a large amount of stress on your bones, it's skeletal, not muscular, most people who fight for fun are pretty strong, but when you start putting stress on your bones it doesn't matter how strong you are, what matters is conditioning, and if you just jump right into something that puts alot of stress on your bones you will get hurt.
This Video Shows why We all Subscribed to this Channel. Amazing Truth that needed to be Shared. We Just Started Training in Jiujitsu & this concept came up already so to know this insight is very good for my brothers and i THANK YOU
As someone on a break from BJJ after quite a few back issues, this is the first video I’ve clicked on in years. Now I know why I have those issues!
You are the man Chewy!
Inverting doesn't feel right for me and I couldn't articulate why. This makes so much sense! Great explanation and good points regarding the "rotating tires" analogy. Awesome video. 👏👏🙏
Awesome video! Super helpful!
I bought Mikey Musumeci's Berimbolo course on bjj fanatics, and he teaches inversion where you don't go on your neck. It's a hip hinge movement, not neck or back.
I understand you're not on your neck. It doesn't mean it doesn't contribute to neck issues down the road from being in the position.
Love this Nick! An Absolutely necessary video! 💪👏👍
Well that just made a lot of sense to me. My neck always hurts. Most of my game is playing inverted. I might switch that up lol
I think inverting safely relies a lot on flexibility and timing. If your hamstrings and lower back are all inflexible then all that pressure is going to go to the neck. The worst thing you can do is try to push against the pressure with your back when your getting smashed. Have to be comfortable enough in those positions to just relax and frame away.
It doesn't take insane flexibility to do basic, lightweight inverting, but you are correct that you do need to have worked on that flexibility. I did this a few years back and it was a fun little bit to add at the end of the class as a cool down. Still don't invert as any major part of my game though.
"Inverting safely" says the person not 50 years old. Given a reasonable time span, inversion probably isn't good.
This is absolutely correct. If you observe world class competitors who base their game heavily on inversions you'll see that their hips barely leave the ground when they invert and the back is almost flat.
Doing that takes INSANE amounts of flexibility and it's an absolute must if you want to be have a game like that AND remain less physically broken.
Great video thanks for posting - we talked about this same thing today.
Totally true what your saying about wear and tear , been training for nearly 20 years and the culmination of niggling injuries take its toll
I’m 15 years in BJJ with neck problems I invert sometimes but most damage I got was from neck cranks and guilotines
Is there a way to limit injuries?
@@Ap-zp5oh Just tap to guillotines, your game will suffer 😊
I'm 15 weeks in BJJ with neck problems from neck cranks and guillotines. BJJ is a sport where literally everybody gets injured all the time, and sometimes severely.
@@Ap-zp5oh’m a recreational brown belt and will absolutely tap if someone is squeezing on my neck even if the choke isn’t there. Doesn’t matter who’s doing it. Finishing a round or match without getting submitted doesn’t outweigh not being able to turn your head for a few days/weeks, or worse, getting some irreversible nerve damage. Edited to add that I’ve been the most injury free in the periods that I also did some strength training & some mobility along side jiu jitsu. It just makes your body more resilient. That plus not being worried about tapping in the training room are things in your control that can help with avoiding injuries.
You should do an injury recovery video. How do you keep training with nagging injuries? I’m taking some time off but I know others who just train through it.
It gives me heartburn 😂
Yes this is definitelly sth to consider. for example the classic reverse x to saddle I would do also on people that are quiet heavier than me because most of their weight is on their hands for this entry. Some Back Takes from Reverse de la Riva I d only do on guys my size or smaller. Like it is not good to put the heavyweight new guy on your neck. But i hope that calisthenics training helps me to continue to train safe even when i like to invert from time to time.
Been dealing with a nagging neck injury for the past year due to this. Decided to quit temporarily while I attempt to strengthen my neck while dealing with a bit of degenerative disc disease. Would love to see a video on neck strengthening exercises to fend off injuries like this!
The only way to help it so take time off, stop trying to strengthen it. That area needs to heal.
I would look in to the iron neck exercise machine
@@RAPEDBYBLACKS There's definitely more proactive things you can do
An issue with your disk is not going to get resolved by strengthening muscle
I only do Berimobolo Rolls and Tornado Guard against smaller opponents and it's usually just for fun, because it's a little on the less effective side in my weight class. However she should know that inversion is on the shoulders, if she feels alot of pain on her neck I reccomend she shrug her shoulders. I will admit tho, inverting is great for retaining guard position and avoiding a guard pass.
The Wiltse bros came to my gym to teach berimbolo. I was brand new and not a small or young guy. Or flexible. Couldn't figure out how to invert for awhile. Now I can do it and it helps to deal with stack pass but I don't choose it if that makes sense. Anyway, it's funny looking back to have one of the best guys in the world teach class and I physically couldn't do the move.
Being a rooster (127 pounds), this is my go to but he is 100% correct. My neck is always injured. I have learned to not do it against bigger guys. I will only invert against people my size.
I don't even allow myself to get stacked if I can help it because of those neck and back issues you mentioned because I know the stress well be awful long term
It made me think. As an experienced practitioner, which would you consider relatively safe yet still effective positions?
I have recurring neck problems from getting strong whipped years ago during training. Inverting always causes me neck problems so I don't use it much anymore.
Here's to taking micro adjustments into 2023 🙌
Been rolling for years, this is the one technique I avoid completely. Well said.
Just nailed a question I having been asking myself ,why my shoulders especially my right shoulder has been really playing up ( I am 55 Yr old blue belt in UK). It was when you said about playing half guard and rotating the tyres. I too have been working on my half guard alot , and it's over use of being on one shoulder. Obvious has smacked me in the face,as I couldn't think why they are so knotted.
I no longer bolo from the bottom, I still love to invert and use it regularly for retention against people my own weight but not so much against someone heavier, that's when I tend to really try to stick to my frames and not go to turtle due to being compressed too often. But yeah even showing some bolo details to a blue belt in the gym last month I ended up with a knot in my neck for a whole week.
This is why I rarely do armbars from guard. I get stacked too often and it caused a lot of back pain. I can demo them and do them from other positions, but I only rarely do them in live rolls.
Man, can I relate to this. I come from powerlifting and strongman staying between 220-240 pounds and my coach is this super bendy wizard. I admire his dedication to his flexibility as he does yoga and various other activities, but I’d hate whenever this 165 pound wizard would announce we were doing inverted stuff😂
I don't do the inverted stuff. Partially because I'm 6'2" 230lbs and partially because I'm a 42 year old washed up powerlifter and the body is a bit beat up. In my game, minimal as it is, about as fancy as I get is some De La Riva or spider guard. They are pretty effective and can be really annoying.
Same here man. I like simple BJJ, don't need to be doing this ninja stuff. Get on top, make them feel that pressure and make em quit before you've even started a sub 🤟
@@jacket2848 ya that’s one of the reasons the sambo guys are dominating bjj guys in ufc. No messing around or fancy shit just do what’s effective
When i was younger, i used to inver alot. As i got older i strayed away from it and only do it with guys similar in size and weight, and if i need to versus how i used to do it all the time.
That 2-stripe white belt with the micro adjustments (real sneaky like) will never be forgotten 😂😂😂
as a small guy 110lbs You are not wrong ive played inverted manyyy years. being smashed Consistently is Awful on the neck and back.
Got my neck cranked in a RNC in a judo tourney years ago when I was very new to grappling and didn't know any better to tap quickly. I've suffered neck issues on and off the mats ever since and it flares up if I get stacked in jiu jitsu--just had to sit out a week of practice because of it. After watching this video I've decided to not make inversions a major part of my game any more and just give up the position if I get stacked doing a triangle or arm bar. Train smarter, not harder.
take MSM . It will feel like new
Never really thought about this, really interesting point. I don’t make inversions a huge part of my game, put I’ve got a few nice moves up my sleeve that require inversion. Never noticed neck/back pain as a result, in fact I often do inversions down the mat to warm up my neck/shoulders. Is this a case of bad inversion technique maybe? Or just in occasions where someone sprawls on you/stacks you etc?
I invert quite a bit. But I'm 180 pounder with good flexibility. I never get neck pain. But that goes to what you were saying about cycling moves. I also do lots of technical stand ups into submissions, throws, or leg takedowns.
I think someone with good hip escaping and technical stand ups will do just fine without inversions. It's just a shortcut if you have flexibility. Also it needs to be used sparingly with strikes involved. Not great mma or self defense cause it becomes like grip fighting against punching 😕 😒
Anyways thanks for the content.
"I'm not suffering from repetition injuries!" Ok let's meet back here in a couple years.
@@aplus1080 oh I've been doing martial arts since I was 5 or so.... I definitely have repetition injuries. And because of that I am on board with cycling the muscles used. Plus I regularly stretch throughout the day.
I don't know you got more experience with chronic injuries from inversions than I do. But I also think that the whole inversion thing is somewhat misunderstood. The past year or so I've been working on bolos/crab ride etc. However, what I've kind of learned about these techniques is that you're inverting to get your hips in correct position, and you're letting your body do the work, similar to most throws on your feet.
My experience is that if you're forcing inversions so that you're placing a lot of pressure on your back/neck, then there was probably a more effective and efficient technique at your disposal and you went and forced something. That's a recipe for injury even with techniques that aren't inversions.
And yes, there's a difference between using strength and forcing a technique, all of this ends up being pretty subjective, I just think that bolo positions and other inversions are there to increase your mobility and if you're getting stuck in that inversion position then why would you invert to a position that's making you less mobile. That's literally the opposite of what the technique is supposed to do.
I only invert because it looks cool 😎
I’ve been practicing inverting to just be able to know how do it safely and just for movement. I feel like staying that way doesn’t make sense, like I wouldn’t want to be in a position bent over like for an entire round lol.
But knowing how to roll backwards and forwards and side to side without carrying weight on your neck is important. I feel like thats where this kind of practice matters so that you know how to properly carry your weight onto your shoulders, because carrying it on your neck is very very bad. This is where I think instruction matters and where the practice should be focused rather than drilling it to a point your neck is hurting :(
Could doing neck strengthening exercises help with this? I know F1 drivers do them and have good success with them.
I invert to backside 50/50 when people pass with a knee on belly on me, but that doesn't really give them a chance to flatten my neck since I pop out on the other side. I never really have any neck issues, but I am 160lbs and pretty mobile/flexible.
Keep doing you then. No problem.
Thanks! I agree though if you are just starting out, or are against a really good opponent, you can end up in some really bad spots. Kind of why I don't fight the double under pass too much anymore once it's late stage and just go for turtle or something..
New white belt. I am a bigger guy. One of my rolling partners that is a blue belt is also a bigger guy. When I get into side control he plays super defensive. Arms in tight and protecting his neck. What are some techniques I can use to open him up? I can move to better positions like knee on belly or mount. I am looking for something to move towards a submission.
I’ve just started in BJJ in December and I’m 51. One of the things I have noticed is that my neck is incapable of doing inversions. On one of the warm ups we did a thing where you throw your legs over your head while lying on your back. I think I did two of them before I realised it wasn’t good for me. The important thing is to have fun and the really important thing is to not cause excessive damage to your body.
Same here,53 and white belt.Would love to invert, but despite working on flexibility I can feel the pressure on my neck when I think about trying.I already have some issues with my fingers, so not keen to risk my neck
do you mean like x guard and berimbolos and like that?
I do this sometimes to fuck around. I don’t know what I’m doing but my training partners believe I do lol.
Do you have students where inversion is their primary game?
Inversions and backward rolls are a super important part of your Jiu-jitsu foundation. I struggled with them at first and felt neck pain sometimes, but now they are a part of my warm up before any session.. Just remember to relax and exhale while you're folded in half.
Back rolls are super important for sure. Inverting isn't a foundational element to BJJ.
@@Chewjitsu I kinda disagree with you. While you're kinda right, inverting is a basic guard retention technique and inverting is only a very small step from pummeling a leg over top retain guard. It might not be as foundational as a shrimp, but I would put it on a similar level as a technical standup (which is also another technique like inversions that is super useful in many different technical positions).
The issue is that I think people try to force inversions rather than using them when its natural to do so.
Im 185 and i had a 260lb 6'4 guy fall on top of me while inverting. I thought i broke my neck. Thankfully it was fine but definitely a good warning....
The position that I find to be hardest on my neck and back is called jiujitsu. 🤨
Diddo, I RARELY invert and when I do it is for a short period of time. I suggest my students do the same.
Tried inverting to escape a triangle. Ended up smashing my head to the mat. My neck cracked. This happened today. Pretty scared. What should I do? I don't feel pain or soreness on my neck. But hearing the crack made me a wee bit concerned? Should I get an x ray? Please help. Just started for about 2 months now. I practice MMA and I do no gi rolls in BJJ
Give it some time to rest and heal. If it doesn't improve go see a doc.
I'm surprised that between the video and comments I see almost no mention of the importance of proper technique in inverting. If you're doing it properly then sure, like Chew says any skillset you focus on will contribute to a particular stress on your body. That said I see a lot of white and blue belts who attempt to invert by basically throwing themselves into their own neck and then complain about it with no regard for their personal human error.
Inverting is number one. Learn it and you'll see!
It’s not the techniques fault if you’re rolling on your neck. You need to stay on your shoulders and learn how to maintain thoracic extension inverted.
There is also an issue with most people that the front and side muscles of the neck are tight (from looking down all day) and your cervical column is anterior; if you have a back neck bump you have a tight sternocleidomastoid muscle group. (Dumb long name for muscles on the sides of the neck)
I've come to this realization with the wrestling step-through (aka, the "shot"). I'm 48 but have always lifted and stayed in shape. My knees are perfectly healthy.
However, I have thick quads and very open hips, so that motion doesn't come naturally or line up well. (I'm a solid 5'7" and 230 pounds, with about 13% body fat). But I thought that maybe if I train the step-through specifically I can use the motion effectively. So, I spent about four weeks SLOWLY going through the motion, carefully attempting to program the mechanics.
And my knees were SCREWED. I actually had to spend a few weeks recovering, doing a light rehab protocol and everything. So, lesson learned. Not every mechanic is going to be part of your toolbox. And that's okay.
And for just practicing it slowly or applying it in intense rolls ?
5'7 230 lbs @ 13% bf wtf!! ... What supps do you take? ;)
@@glenkurry3269 HA HA! I get that a lot. My family is VERY short and thick, on both sides. Good ole Greek and Danish genes, basically. I was 150 pounds in the 6th grade, and my Dad has 17-inch forearms well into his 70s. As a kid, I remember watching his mother strap on a chest harness and pull a plow.
We farmed growing up, so I've always exercised and eaten healthy food. The only thing I add to my diet is creatine and whey protein. I started shooting for 150 grams of protein per day, and that's honesty made all the difference in the world. I immediately noticed I was a LOT less sore after training. I use the Isopure whey protein, and really like it. It doesn't hit your stomach hard like some of the other stuff I've tried.
@@nicocontreras5366 I'm nowhere near ready to try it in a roll. Basically what I've done is drill the movement in parts, slowly and under control. Splitting my stance, lowering my level, dropping the back knee inward, then driving forward on the front leg. I've experimented with numerous adjustments, trying to find a movement pattern that's comfortable, and I just can't do it. It honestly feels like I'm hurting myself every time I try it.
You ever have movements like that? Where your body is just like, "No".
If your neck is getting hurt, you're not inverting, you're being stacked. Inverting is across the shoulders, your neck should never have any pressure on it.
How long have you been training?
This is hilarious that it came out today. I just got injured from inverting. It wasn't evena big guy that did it, it was a 115 lbs female 😂
And I thought jujitsu was supposed to be known as the gentle skill, but I guess not at times.
As a 1 year old white belt in jiu jitsu, it is insane to me that jiu jitsu classes allow beginners to stack eachother on their necks with no safety training as one of the first moves. Teaching how to protect your neck in the closed guard should be a prereq for even playing inversions. I think it's a primary reason people quit, whether first year or 5th year.
One year olds shouldn't be inverting at all. But congrats on that reading level.
@@aplus1080 my 1 year old daughter does handstands and headstands all the time. I just don't let people push on her neck while she does it.
6'3 250. I do it but sparringly. With heavier weighted people they just become a walrus and plant on you.
No part of Jiujitsu is mandatory if it injures you.
im a 42 year old blue belt in a system that inverts quite a bit....10th planet haha. i had a cage fighter who is also a brown belt and is also older, a woman, tell me to stay off my fuckin neck lol. i never forgot this. plus what i train for is so practical i dont really fuck with all the fancy shit. i busted fuckers up with americanas today in class lol
But is it necessary for a person to at least achieve the flexibility to do that kind of body position? Ofcourse, as far as bjj is concerned.
Theres a brown belt at my gym and inversion is a BIG part of his game. Oddly enough his neck and back is fine it’s his knees that are bad 😂😂😂
Thing to understand about inversion- it SHOULD be more of a hamstring stretch than neck compression.
I think, if you want to Ben confident about guard retention, you NEED to be competent at inversion.
*be
Not a fan of inverting. its good and all for bjj but not ideal for a real fight.
You just said that your brain couldn’t access all of the possible moves in this game. However, what about people who are known as savants? These are people who are usually autistic, and they just know something. really really well without much training required. Although this is not jujitsu related, you can see this with Mr. Derek Paravicini, who plays the piano. Please look him up on TH-cam.
Savants represent an incredibly small fraction of the population.
@@Chewjitsu
I know, but, so, do we have a little bit… People who are blind or visually impaired. I’m just trying to give you information, use it or not. Not that any person who has autism would be able to do it properly, if they’re like Derek… Severely autistic and unaware of the world except for a small subset, like his music. Derek cannot button his shirt, and he has to have 24 hour care. However, he can play the piano like it’s nothing. He can listen to a song once, and play it by ear. He has perfect pitch. Look him up sometime. He takes requests, so anything you would like.
Learn how to do it. Learn why and when. Then exploit those who do.
stick to bjj for mma '
or at least with some awareness to striking ...
Avoid inversion . pull guard .. wrist lock .......
Appreciate the content 😃
Am just returning to the mats after 14 mos. Inversions will probably be a danger zone for ever due to neck trouble I’ve had.
FWIW, did a ton of research and if you need neck surgery th-cam.com/video/XLyXxcvXdbA/w-d-xo.html is the cure for neck and arm pain due to herniated discs crowding nerve channels.
Cheers
I'm 40 years old..... invert ain't in my vocabulary.
Fundamentals matter: natural body movements and energy efficiency... thats it. 😆
I am the second one to comment
wow can we get your autograph mate
@@clinicallydepressedcat3497 I’ll pray about it
@@discontentAK LOL!