In this Firearms Friday, we ask for help identifying strange markings on several Winchester 94 rifles that came to us from the Wyoming State Penitentiary.
These are simply the layers of steel folded in when forged. Those lines are very common on older Winchesters. Those lines don't cross the screws because the screw holes were made after the receivers were forged. They are not scratches, they are not defects.
In the late 70s/early 80s I was Deputy Warden of Oklahoma State Prison. We had dozens of those rifles, all branded OSP on the stock. No saddle rings because guards were always messing with their guns, I had a couple shoot their chair out from under themselves. The lines were assumed to be part of the manufacturing process and caused no concern. I agree with you that the state buys low bid so they may have seconds. When I took over in 1977 OSP’s armory was a hodge-podge of weapons from several Thompson’s, to Winchester 12 gas, 30-30s, 45s, 38s, 22s, from every manufacture in the US. After a time I was able to secure standardized issues from S&W and Mossberg
I don't know what firearms are currently issued at Wyoming Correctional Facilities. I assume there is some standardization. The prison Winchesters in this video were acquired from 1915 (five examples) to 1961 (1 example).
Bill Arends ; 👍 🤔 Just thinking about what you said, you more than likely came across some of my relatives or acquaintances. I'd love to get my hands on and own early model 94. In the mid 1960's, I had a early model 94, the Bluing was worn down to a soft grey color. It had a Crescent Buttplate and Buckhorn rear sight. That rifle would put the rounds in the Black all day without trying. Dumb me, I sold it to a coworker. I kick myself every day I think about it.
After sighting in at 60 feet, I could easily cover 5 shots with a nickel th-cam.com/users/postUgkxQt2uORDRfFOVSrO4idv4B90ThT6EOnEL ! Truly a pleasure to shoot! Scope was easy to adjust for eye relief. Only problem the varmints must have seen it delivered lol!Update: So impressed with shot groups at 30 yards I purchased a Hammers 3×9 with adjustable Objective scope! Now a true nail driver!
Over 20 years ago I was at a gun show in San Jose CA. A dealer there had 7 Model 94 Winchesters and engraved on the receiver of each one was Tennessee State Dept Of Corrections. I bought the nicest one for $500 and still have it. It's immaculate and looks like it was hardly ever used. I have not shot it. The finish is black not blue and the serial number shows it was made in 1957.
I have a 1897' Winchester shotgun marked tdc , #2 , Tennessee department corrections, Bought it at the Nashville fairgrounds gun show about 30 years ago.
Most saddle rings where removed because they where considered noisy. They clanked back and forth on the gun so much so it left a figure 8 pattern on those that where kept on long enough . Some people just wrapped the ring with leather but a lot of people just didn't like them and removed them.
We have a couple of pristine Winchester commemorative carbines that were issued for the 75th anniversary of Statehood. We wrapped the rings with fabric to prevent damage. I wonder if the rings were actually used very much. Most of the old hands I knew growing up either used a saddle scabbard or carried their rifles across their saddles. Never saw anyone using the ring for anything.
I have my Granddad's 1894 30/30 saddle ring carbine, which according to Winchester's records was manufactured in 1903. It has striations like yours do...........mainly on the right side of the receiver ...same side as the loading gate. I always figured they were just tooling marks.
I own and have shot a few of the old time cartridges in the Model 1894. This past fall I killed a whitetail buck with a Model 1894 Winchester in .32-40, which was the other blackpowder round when the gun was introduced. It wasn't as powerful as the .38-55 but it was known for being very accurate. It did well for me. I've got a Winchester 1894 in .38-55 as well and have killed deer with a .30-30, and they are all very capable rounds, especially on whitetail deer.
I believe the .32-40 was originally designed as a target round so the accuracy is not surprising. I have an 1893 Marlin rifle from 1909 in .38-55. With a hard cast lead bullet and a moderate powder charge, it is remarkably accurate despite so pitting and corrosion in the bore.
Those striations are from the forging process. These are common in the older 94s. I have a model 94 from 1921 with the same striations. Most post war 94s up until 1964 when Winchester switched to investment casting, lack these striations, as their post forging machining process improved dramatically.
Thanks for the comment. Our subsequent research leads us to agree with your assessment, the marks are from the forging process. We noted similar marks on the receiver of Colt Lightning rifle.
I never noticed before, so I just checked mine. I have 3 model 94 rifles and 2 model 92 rifles of that era. They are very very faint, but unless it's my imagination, I can see the lines. Maybe because these rifles (at the prison) were handled daily the metal is more worn exposing the layers. It reminds me of the gear shift knobs on the old ranch trucks on my dad's and uncle's dairy. Even the 1967 GMC pickup they bought brand new. The shift pattern numbers were worn almost off and some were gone completely.
Mr.Green: Go on over to Cody. I know, it's clear across the state, but I'm pretty sure you've been there. Take one of the 1894s and look up Ms. Ashley Hleblinsky at The Cody. If she doesn't know everything there is to know about that rifle, she'l know someone who does. Besides, you'll get to spend time with a brilliant historian who happens to be cuter than a basket of puppies!
Thanks. Yes, I have been to Cody, but not since they revamped their firearms displays. I'm looking forward to a trip in the near future. We have used the expertise of staff at the museum there with questions about guns in our collection.
I have a rifle made in 1900 with the same marks. I asked a guy who had the largest Winchester collection at one time. He said that was common. Mr. Harold McCallum, Monroe, Oregon.
Knew a guy who worked as a guard at San Quentin for a few years in the early 70s. His father worked there for decades, retired, and became a bounty hunter. They said they used Model 94s in 25-35 on the wall. Did these guys have some stories...
After 1896 they started mucking around with the metals that made the receivers and they had a high alloy content so the blue never stuck to the chamber
Got four 94's , one with four serial numbers one with five numbers and one with six numbers and a 94 44 mag with six numbers . It's a early model of 44 mag. The markings it more than likley dirty forming dies . Productions bosses were hell back in those days.......
The Model 94 in .44 Magnum came out in 1968. At the end of 1967, serial numbers were over 3,000,000. Are you sure you have the correct serial number on that one? The Model 94 hit 6 digits in 1897, so you have some very early guns.
The other 'original' cartridge loaded in the first year production was the 32-40, also a favored target cartridge that was doubly capable of cleanly taking game. The 32 Special quickly replaced the 32-40.
I believe those scratches were there when it was new . Just not noticeable when it was new. . Also that rifle is probably a surplus rifle possibly from the navy. During WWI different countries had a hard time supply firearms to their troops. Many countries including the U.S. bought lever actions in very small numbers for their Airforce and Navy. The U.S. bought a small amount for the Nav and shortly after the war sold them to many prisons as surplus. There is very little paper trail and on Google but if you really keep looking you can find the info You can tell all of this by the rear military ladder sight instead of the traditional buck horn sights
That's not a military rear sight that's the original old carbine sight the saddle rings were only on the carbines at that time those two guns were considered carbines 20" barrel and shorter were carbines and trapper carbines as short as 12"barrels
I have a 1894 Winchester in 25-35 with the Nickel steel barrel. My great granddad found it in an old creek bed. Still shoots all because they used nickel in the steel.
Great video, guess I’m a little late. Just checked my 94 saddle ring carbine and the lines are there and my carbine is from the end of the saddle ring line,1925. Thanks for sharing.
In my opinion based on the depth and length of the scratches I think it must have been original from Winchester. Like you said the prison system probably got a good deal on those and Winchester didn't have to scrap them. Definitely very interesting rifles I'd love to have one. Thank you 👍
Earned a new sub! Very interesting video. I worked at the Kentucky State Reformatory. Our wall box guns were all Ruger Mini 14’s. It was obvious that they sat in the rack beside the door going out to the perimeter walk. One side was constantly being brushed against and was more exposed to the weather as the finish on the right side faced outward to the door. We could have used a better armorer (if We had one at all?) as they all needed attention. No I wasn’t disassembling them, I would always cycle a round through to make sure there was a round in the chamber and the bolts were all difficult to “get started”! I’m sure dropping the hammer on one would free it up but I liked to know the condition of the rifle in my care.
Kudos to the last commentor who said they are forging striations. It’s obvious if you compare the two receivers of the different carbines. The scratches match.
I would think running the serial number would’ve brought some satisfaction from the archives @ Winchester. VERY strange indeed. I’ve got a ‘94 .30-30 that I purchased 2nd-hand to replace one that was STOLEN out of my truck in Whitefish, Mt..and THAT one had been with me for a long time. I was SO mad, still upset about it and it’s been almost 20 years ago. Anyway, the carbine I have now is a ‘56-‘57 in .30-30, in excellent condition, bore and all..just the bluing is all gone. Interesting video..thanks.
According to the serial numbers, these carbines were shipped between 1915 (five examples) and 1961 (one example). We have requested information from Cody's Buffalo Bill Center for the West on a couple of Winchesters. But it costs and I don't have the budget to do these. Sorry to hear that your Winchester was stolen. Had that happen once with a Colt revolver, but the police recovered it and I got it back. The pre-1964 Model 94s are some of the best.
Those striations were from the factory and were very common,they blued the receivers and when they were new those flaws were far less noticeable but they look like hell nowadays.Winchester never sold seconds but they did send them west of the Mississippi figuring they were going to get beat up anyway.
Those Wyoming prison Lever Guns would likely have a prison Stamp’ marking somewhere on the receiver or stock . Wish I had one from Old Folsom Prison!!!! -Most of those old west prisons had a couple Gatling’ guns on hand and as time passed those were replaced with Browning machine guns in a few select towers. The old lever guns were often replaced with 30.06 rifles. I worked with a few old time guards that remember when they first started -once a month they would run a short fire drill with the Browning Machine gun -from a River Tower across the River into no mans land
Very interesting! Thanks. I am a retired LEO and I have a great appreciation for these old "working" LE guns. These .30-30 prison rifles speak to me. My beat partner carried a personally owned 12ga. pump shotgun in his patrol car, that was marked as being a veteran of the Yuma State Prison, a most infamous place in the Southwest. Part of our duties was searching for and arresting ex-con fugitives, and that old shotgun seemed to be the perfect choice for that duty. BTW: great looking hat, Evan!
A good shotgun is a very versatile problem solver. I like guns with a story, that were used as intended. The hat is a Stetson Open Road 25, probably 1950 or 60 vintage. It was like new when I acquired it.
@@frankhinkle5772 You are kind. I was born in 1944 and lived in a ranch house without running water until I was a freshman in high school. The hat was second hand, bought on Ebay about 15 years ago.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 Great find! And it seems to fit. Or it didn't and you wholloped on your own head with a 2X4 until it did. A great look. Maybe you owe us a story about your background.
I agree with mr. Rhodes a few comments earlier, this is an effect of the forging process, and because people carried it with their bare hands, the acids from their hands would etch into the folds of the forging. You can see how these striations actually go around the back of the frame beyond the Bloodlines and other portions of the shape. I have no answer as to the saddle Rings it's possible they were using those to lock them up and somehow lost the key and decided to take the saddle rings off to get the Firearms off of the lock if they lost the key. That is absolutely pure speculation, I have no idea why they would have lost those. I can understand why they would have taken the saddle ring off, because they were constantly rattling. If you would like a more definitive answer, I would suggest it you get a hold of D&D gun shop in Troy Michigan and ask the proprietor. He probably knows as much about the manufacture of firearms and the Metallurgy used to manufacture them and procedures throughout history as any other human on the planet.
We have other firearms in the collection with the saddle ring removed. In the case of a Sharps 1859 carbine, the bar has been removed as well. The ring tended to rub the bluing off the receiver if it was left in place and probably made an annoying rattle, not a good thing for a hunter.
Take pictures of both and overlay one on top of the other to see if the markings match. They look very similar. If they match, i would think at least that would rule out normal wear and point to manufacturing or tooling of some sort. If that is the case, the screws would not have any marks at all. Just a thought. I only watched this because I was looking for rifles made in 25-35 and the history behind them. Good Luck.
Check with the local gunsmiths for service records on these firearms as the pins and screws may have been replaced during servicing. The scratches look like they were laid across a concrete surface and needed attention after
Yes i have , i started to round them up while i was high school in 1959 and after i got out of the army . I paid as low as $ 20 for some them , 1873 , 1892 models 94 , 64 , 71 surprising they were all in really good shape ,how many have i got around a 100 or more the last one i bought was 1892 model 32-20 , now it needs a lot of TLC..............The one i hunt with is a 44 mag. model 94 i bought in early 1968 . I never like the 1 in 38 barrel that came with it so i had the barrel change to 1 in 16 . You talk about a big change , from 50 yds. to a 150 yds with on sight change , and i use a peep sight , laugh if you want but 80 years old and i can still lay them in there with the best of these hot shots and there 6.5 and so on with a old Winchester lever action !!!
I haven't measured. I think the explanation that the marks are the result of the forging process is more believable than the possibility that the guns were factory seconds or not properly finished.
If I was betting I would say the guns had been rebuilt armorers normally have those pieces and parts in parts supplies.way back when .38-55 was a target shooting round.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 I bet 2 apple pies that the saddle rings were removed nano-seconds before they were gifted to the museum. They were robbed for parts. I might be wrong but I'm willing to bet I'm right.
@@adelarsen9776 I hadn't considered that possibility, but we have other firearms with missing parts. I'm away from the Museum and don't remember if the staples are also gone as well as the rings. There must have been a demand for rings or Winchester wouldn't have put them on so many guns. I wonder how many rings were actually used for their intended purpose.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 Not many. It is placed there for attachment to a saddle scabbard. Not too many horses riding the walls of US penal facilities. Good health to you Sir.
Five of the carbines are dated 1915. Those have numbers in the 767XXX to 771XXX range, so close. Others were made 1918,1919, 1930,1959, 1961 so quite a spread in the numbers. No W under the numbers.
I'm guessing the Warden back then said to Winchester give me 50 rifles as cheap as you can. Winchester may have said we can make you guns at half the price from seconds/poorly machined parts.
I have a Remington model 8 in 35 rem Cal that was used in a prison has those same scratches on it it was my grandfather who carried it for the 15 years he worked there as a guard it's the keys they carry
I think they came straight from the factory just like you see them. The factory probably sold them as blemished but fully functional at a very low price to a State agency.
You refered to them as "carbines"? If they're chambered in .30-.30 they are not a carbine. A carbine is a long gun/rifle chambered in a pistol caliber. One could have a Henry rifle chambered in 30-30 and a Rossi carbine chambered in .44 mag, both lever rifles.
Hi Folks, I have a 1894 carbine 32WIN.SPÉCIAL with no Serial number on it , but stamped under the forehand on the barrel with a number 25 and like the book I have from the model 1894 this is the year of making and all the markings and type of tang, sights hammer and barrel markings and other variations of this carbine are like the ones of under the 1 millioun range. I can also exclued that the serial number was removed because you would find some kind of traces and I compared it with other carbines! DOES ANYBODY KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT IF WINCHESTER SOLD SOME WITHOUT SERIAL NUMMBERS ON IT??? THS for your opinions! Roger from Central Europe
Sorry I don't have a definite answer about serial numbers. To the best of my limited knowledge, all 1894 Winchesters should have left the factory with a serial number stamped on the bottom front of the action. In the United States, possession of a firearm that should have a serial number and doesn't is problematic. The owner could be subject to a criminal charge and the gun confiscated. Don't know the laws in your neck of the woods. I suppose it is possible that your receiver missed the stamping. Seems unlikely but if there is no evidence that the serial number has been removed, it's probably a factory error.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 Thank you Sir, I bought it years ago and have it legal "here in the woods" in Luxembourg, there is no Mystery about it. I am verry happy with it and it shoots great, won a couple of Westernshooting at 50 yards and won't sell it, mabe my 3 son's in law can have it when I am gone. Thanks for your opinion Sir! So long..🤠
@@rogerscherer You are most welcome. I am pleased to hear that you are enjoying your Winchester and have been successful with it in competition. I also participated in what we call Cowboy Action Shooting and was the Wyoming State Champion in 1999.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 Well, know that I know you are a Cowboy Action Shooter, let us call ourselves by our Knicknames, I am Member of SASS since 2000 #46085 life and known as the SingleJack and my Glory day was 2009 in Italy and won the EOT in the Cowboy class, was once back in the days 4th of the German CAS Championship , and won a few local Area matches in Germany. Know at my fifty's I get into IDPA by a close friend of mine who won the World Champion title 2019 in the Revolver class as Sharpshooter , but the Westernguns will always be a favorite of mine!🤠
Those don’t look like scratches. If they were, not only would they cross the screws and pins, they would cross each other. They don’t. They’re perfectly parallel. They are too wavy for machine marks. That only leaves us with forging marks. The rifles pretty much had to come from the factory like that.
@@SuburbanRifleman I'm glad you like the videos. We just did another series of eight that will be posted every other Friday. Couple of interesting ones are a Colt Artillery Model that may or may not have belonged to frontier scout Frank Grouard and a Winchester carbine associated with the Spring Creek Sheep Raid murders in Wyoming in 1909.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 it refers to refining, de burring, & finishing machined, or otherwise fabricated parts, or details. Unless they are very large or otherwise unwieldy, they’re generally done on a bench.
I just miced..my pre 64..top edge of the main block .24...I have a bill cody and a post 64..I think its 79 ...both of them are .25...my guess is the ones you have are not milled..or polished to save cost
Thanks for your comments. Interesting about the measurements. As you know, production techniques changed in the post-1964 Winchesters in an attempt to reduce manufacturing costs.
The wood stocks and fore grip are not scratched they would be scratched if the gate scenario was correct. I believe these are probably blem receivers models that were sold to correction facility at a cut rate most likely . I've done a significant amount of casting and would use a fine brush to get the basic formed mold to a pre cast stage. Some one made a mistake at the factory and didn't check the precast mold and used the wrong one somehow. Instead of trashing them they sold them to a customer that just needed the utilitarian function and didn't care about cosmetic blemish.
There have been only three firing squad executions in the last 45-50 years, all in Utah. At least in one they used Winchester model 94 30-30 rifles. Probably the other two as well.
I think Utah at one time gave condemned person their choice as to the method of execution. The last by firing squad was Gary Gilmore in 1977. I don't believe that's an option today.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 it used to be a choice, and no longer is. However those that had chosen it before can still go through with it. I think there are 2 left. Don't know what we're waiting for. Gilmore was not the last firing squad execution, he was the first after they overturned Furhman, he was in 1977. They've had two more since John Albert Taylor in 1996 and Ronny Lee Gardiner in 2010.
Are those actual scratches or remnants of the bluing left in lines? Run your fingernail across the receiver and see if you can feel ridges or scratches. Many receivers on older Winchester lever actions wear in similar patters as seen here but they are not actually scratches in the metal, for some reason, maybe the metallurgy of the time? Barrels, or any other parts of the guns that I have seen do not wear in this pattern, only the Winchester receivers. Usually these types of striations on the Win. receivers seem to occur mainly in models made from about 1900-1940, and not all models of that time period. It must have something to do with the metal and the conditions in which caused the wear, ie. cleaning chemicals, humidity, and maybe even the material used to clean the guns with. Not really sure why this happens but I have seen it many, many times on these old Winchester receivers. By the way the first cartridge loading's for the Winchester model 1894 were two black powder cartridges, the .38-55 and the .32-40 in 1894. In 1895 Winchester changes the metal in the barrels to allow for higher pressure rounds and then chambered the first smokeless cartridge .30-30 and became the first American repeating rifle developed for smokeless powder cartridges. The .38-55 and the .32-20 cartridges were also very accurate calibers and were chambered for many of the target rifles of the period such as the Winchester Highwall. I hope some of this info helps.
Thank you for this information. We appreciate your comments. I have a Marlin 1893 in .38-55 made in 1906. It is surprisingly accurate given the condition of the bore. Based on research by Museum staff and information from other posters, we believe the striations are from the forging process at the Winchester factory. We have noted similar striations on a Colt Lightning in the collection, and on an early Winchester 1892 in .25-20 in a private collection.
the only thing that I can think of is when they're going to in and out of their locked Gates they're scratching it on the side of the gate when the gate comes back and hits their plate on that rifle because some of those gates are spring loaded that's the only thing I could think of
The wood stocks and fore grip are not scratched they would be scratched if the gate scenario was correct. I believe these are probably blem receivers models that were sold to correction facility at a cut rate most likely . I've done a significant amount of casting and would use a fine brush to get the basic formed mold to a pre cast stage. Some one made a mistake at the factory and didn't check the precast mold and used the wrong one somehow. Instead of trashing them they sold them to a customer that just need the utilitarian function and didn't care about cosmetic blemish.
These are simply the layers of steel folded in when forged. Those lines are very common on older Winchesters. Those lines don't cross the screws because the screw holes were made after the receivers were forged.
They are not scratches, they are not defects.
Thanks for the comment. You are correct.
Hmm, interesting. NEVER have I seen this on ANY rifle..carbine or otherwise. Makes sense though..
Thanks, I guessed correctly, but had no idea they're common. Never seen them before!
@@robertunderdunkterwilliger2290 We found the same marks on a Colt Lightning rifle from the late 19th Century.
In the late 70s/early 80s I was Deputy Warden of Oklahoma State Prison. We had dozens of those rifles, all branded OSP on the stock. No saddle rings because guards were always messing with their guns, I had a couple shoot their chair out from under themselves. The lines were assumed to be part of the manufacturing process and caused no concern. I agree with you that the state buys low bid so they may have seconds. When I took over in 1977 OSP’s armory was a hodge-podge of weapons from several Thompson’s, to Winchester 12 gas, 30-30s, 45s, 38s, 22s, from every manufacture in the US. After a time I was able to secure standardized issues from S&W and Mossberg
I don't know what firearms are currently issued at Wyoming Correctional Facilities. I assume there is some standardization. The prison Winchesters in this video were acquired from 1915 (five examples) to 1961 (1 example).
Bill Arends ; 👍 🤔 Just thinking about what you said, you more than likely came across some of my relatives or acquaintances.
I'd love to get my hands on and own early model 94. In the mid 1960's, I had a early model 94, the Bluing was worn down to a soft grey color. It had a Crescent Buttplate and Buckhorn rear sight. That rifle would put the rounds in the Black all day without trying. Dumb me, I sold it to a coworker. I kick myself every day I think about it.
Bill, I think I have one of these rifles. Has OSP carved into the stock and serial number places as made in 1947
@@harrisonmantooth3647 o
@@harrisonmantooth3647 which side of the wall were they on, the slick side or the sunny side?😂😂
Those lines are from the forging process over time it has shown the lines
I'm a Master moulder core maker & blacksmith
After sighting in at 60 feet, I could easily cover 5 shots with a nickel th-cam.com/users/postUgkxQt2uORDRfFOVSrO4idv4B90ThT6EOnEL ! Truly a pleasure to shoot! Scope was easy to adjust for eye relief. Only problem the varmints must have seen it delivered lol!Update: So impressed with shot groups at 30 yards I purchased a Hammers 3×9 with adjustable Objective scope! Now a true nail driver!
Over 20 years ago I was at a gun show in San Jose CA. A dealer there had 7 Model 94 Winchesters and engraved on the receiver of each one was Tennessee State Dept Of Corrections. I bought the nicest one for $500 and still have it. It's immaculate and looks like it was hardly ever used. I have not shot it. The finish is black not blue and the serial number shows it was made in 1957.
I have a 1897' Winchester shotgun marked tdc , #2 , Tennessee department corrections, Bought it at the Nashville fairgrounds gun show about 30 years ago.
Any chance ud sale it?
@@MegaRiffraff wana sale it?
@@justinweaver8787 Thanks but I better hang on to it , its small so it works good for a behind the seat truckgun .
@@MegaRiffraff ok sir thank u 4 the reply i had to ask i appricate u have a good week
I own one of these that belong to my father and it sold at surplus and was from Alcatraz Prison.
Ha haha
!a
Doubt that.
Alcatraz? And it successfully escaped? Congratulations, carbine.
Most saddle rings where removed because they where considered noisy. They clanked back and forth on the gun so much so it left a figure 8 pattern on those that where kept on long enough . Some people just wrapped the ring with leather but a lot of people just didn't like them and removed them.
I have one on my Canadian centennial ‘67 and it stops swinging before ever touching the receiver. Don’t know if that’s different with models
NEVER would’ve pulled it off..leather-wrapped for sure..
We have a couple of pristine Winchester commemorative carbines that were issued for the 75th anniversary of Statehood. We wrapped the rings with fabric to prevent damage. I wonder if the rings were actually used very much. Most of the old hands I knew growing up either used a saddle scabbard or carried their rifles across their saddles. Never saw anyone using the ring for anything.
@@lobang725 We have several carbines in the Museum collection that show the figure 8 damage that The Cheese describes.
Thanks for sharing. Winchester’s are something special.
I have my Granddad's 1894 30/30 saddle ring carbine, which according to Winchester's records was manufactured in 1903. It has striations like yours do...........mainly on the right side of the receiver ...same side as the loading gate. I always figured they were just tooling marks.
Yes, the marks are a result of the forging process and not something that happened after the carbines were sold to the State.
Yeh all it is is the forging and it makes them awesome as far as I’m concerned it gives them caractor nice
I own and have shot a few of the old time cartridges in the Model 1894. This past fall I killed a whitetail buck with a Model 1894 Winchester in .32-40, which was the other blackpowder round when the gun was introduced. It wasn't as powerful as the .38-55 but it was known for being very accurate. It did well for me. I've got a Winchester 1894 in .38-55 as well and have killed deer with a .30-30, and they are all very capable rounds, especially on whitetail deer.
I believe the .32-40 was originally designed as a target round so the accuracy is not surprising. I have an 1893 Marlin rifle from 1909 in .38-55. With a hard cast lead bullet and a moderate powder charge, it is remarkably accurate despite so pitting and corrosion in the bore.
Thanks for sharing;that is what I love about these old guns.The stories and tales their scratches and markings could tell us if they could talk.
30-30 would have been quite a thump as you were climbing the fence!
I have a few "guard cartridges" in my collection. The only difference is they use a Full Metal Jacket bullet - just like a military cartridge.
Those striations are from the forging process. These are common in the older 94s. I have a model 94 from 1921 with the same striations. Most post war 94s up until 1964 when Winchester switched to investment casting, lack these striations, as their post forging machining process improved dramatically.
Thanks for the comment. Our subsequent research leads us to agree with your assessment, the marks are from the forging process. We noted similar marks on the receiver of Colt Lightning rifle.
I never noticed before, so I just checked mine. I have 3 model 94 rifles and 2 model 92 rifles of that era. They are very very faint, but unless it's my imagination, I can see the lines. Maybe because these rifles (at the prison) were handled daily the metal is more worn exposing the layers. It reminds me of the gear shift knobs on the old ranch trucks on my dad's and uncle's dairy. Even the 1967 GMC pickup they bought brand new. The shift pattern numbers were worn almost off and some were gone completely.
The 94 is one of the most iconic rifle ever made. Made in America 🇺🇸. It is a brush buster. My 94 was manufactured in1937. Love it.
You have a very nice rifle. The early models like yours are some of the best.
Mr.Green: Go on over to Cody. I know, it's clear across the state, but I'm pretty sure you've been there. Take one of the 1894s and look up Ms. Ashley Hleblinsky at The Cody. If she doesn't know everything there is to know about that rifle, she'l know someone who does. Besides, you'll get to spend time with a brilliant historian who happens to be cuter than a basket of puppies!
Thanks. Yes, I have been to Cody, but not since they revamped their firearms displays. I'm looking forward to a trip in the near future. We have used the expertise of staff at the museum there with questions about guns in our collection.
I have a rifle made in 1900 with the same marks. I asked a guy who had the largest Winchester collection at one time. He said that was common. Mr. Harold McCallum, Monroe, Oregon.
Thanks again Evan. Keep 'em coming.
Knew a guy who worked as a guard at San Quentin for a few years in the early 70s. His father worked there for decades, retired, and became a bounty hunter. They said they used Model 94s in 25-35 on the wall.
Did these guys have some stories...
They are forge marks,have a 1894 rifle quite similar.
Very interesting and just plain neat! Thank you for the video and I’m now a new subscriber.
After 1896 they started mucking around with the metals that made the receivers and they had a high alloy content so the blue never stuck to the chamber
Got four 94's , one with four serial numbers one with five numbers and one with six numbers and a 94 44 mag with six numbers . It's a early model of 44 mag. The markings it more than likley dirty forming dies . Productions bosses were hell back in those days.......
The Model 94 in .44 Magnum came out in 1968. At the end of 1967, serial numbers were over 3,000,000. Are you sure you have the correct serial number on that one? The Model 94 hit 6 digits in 1897, so you have some very early guns.
The other 'original' cartridge loaded in the first year production was the 32-40, also a favored target cartridge that was doubly capable of cleanly taking game. The 32 Special quickly replaced the 32-40.
I believe those scratches were there when it was new . Just not noticeable when it was new. . Also that rifle is probably a surplus rifle possibly from the navy. During WWI different countries had a hard time supply firearms to their troops. Many countries including the U.S. bought lever actions in very small numbers for their Airforce and Navy.
The U.S. bought a small amount for the Nav and shortly after the war sold them to many prisons as surplus. There is very little paper trail and on Google but if you really keep looking you can find the info
You can tell all of this by the rear military ladder sight instead of the traditional buck horn sights
That's not a military rear sight that's the original old carbine sight the saddle rings were only on the carbines at that time those two guns were considered carbines 20" barrel and shorter were carbines and trapper carbines as short as 12"barrels
More than likely part of the molding/forging/fabrication process.
I have a 1894 Winchester in 25-35 with the Nickel steel barrel. My great granddad found it in an old creek bed. Still shoots all because they used nickel in the steel.
Some historians have stated that the 303 Savage was the first commercial smokeless American cartridge. Both are great hunting rounds.
I cant get enough of these rifles. You can check a quick review I just did on a couple of pre 64 Winchesters if you like.
Great video, guess I’m a little late. Just checked my 94 saddle ring carbine and the lines are there and my carbine is from the end of the saddle ring line,1925. Thanks for sharing.
Very interesting, Thanks!
In my opinion based on the depth and length of the scratches I think it must have been original from Winchester. Like you said the prison system probably got a good deal on those and Winchester didn't have to scrap them. Definitely very interesting rifles I'd love to have one. Thank you 👍
Earned a new sub! Very interesting video. I worked at the Kentucky State Reformatory. Our wall box guns were all Ruger Mini 14’s. It was obvious that they sat in the rack beside the door going out to the perimeter walk. One side was constantly being brushed against and was more exposed to the weather as the finish on the right side faced outward to the door. We could have used a better armorer (if We had one at all?) as they all needed attention. No I wasn’t disassembling them, I would always cycle a round through to make sure there was a round in the chamber and the bolts were all difficult to “get started”! I’m sure dropping the hammer on one would free it up but I liked to know the condition of the rifle in my care.
Kudos to the last commentor who said they are forging striations. It’s obvious if you compare the two receivers of the different carbines. The scratches match.
I would think running the serial number would’ve brought some satisfaction from the archives @ Winchester. VERY strange indeed. I’ve got a ‘94 .30-30 that I purchased 2nd-hand to replace one that was STOLEN out of my truck in Whitefish, Mt..and THAT one had been with me for a long time. I was SO mad, still upset about it and it’s been almost 20 years ago. Anyway, the carbine I have now is a ‘56-‘57 in .30-30, in excellent condition, bore and all..just the bluing is all gone. Interesting video..thanks.
According to the serial numbers, these carbines were shipped between 1915 (five examples) and 1961 (one example). We have requested information from Cody's Buffalo Bill Center for the West on a couple of Winchesters. But it costs and I don't have the budget to do these. Sorry to hear that your Winchester was stolen. Had that happen once with a Colt revolver, but the police recovered it and I got it back. The pre-1964 Model 94s are some of the best.
Yes. Those folds were there before machining and finishing. They were not finished as cleanly as commercial guns.
Those striations were from the factory and were very common,they blued the receivers and when they were new those flaws were far less noticeable but they look like hell nowadays.Winchester never sold seconds but they did send them west of the Mississippi figuring they were going to get beat up anyway.
Thanks to you all the other commenters who have correctly identified the source of the marks.
Those Wyoming prison Lever Guns would likely have a prison Stamp’ marking somewhere on the receiver or stock . Wish I had one from Old Folsom Prison!!!! -Most of those old west prisons had a couple Gatling’ guns on hand and as time passed those were replaced with Browning machine guns in a few select towers. The old lever guns were often replaced with 30.06 rifles. I worked with a few old time guards that remember when they first started -once a month they would run a short fire drill with the Browning Machine gun -from a River Tower across the River into no mans land
Interesting video! Beautiful guns, despite the markings. Gives them character, though!
Did any of those prison rifles have a brass plate on the stock inscribed “Prison Authority, Wyoming Territory, Rawlings WYO” ??
i just picked up a 1922 model 94 with a saddle ring . what is the name of this type of sights than stand up and have a sliding tab ? Thanks
Very interesting! Thanks. I am a retired LEO and I have a great appreciation for these old "working" LE guns. These .30-30 prison rifles speak to me. My beat partner carried a personally owned 12ga. pump shotgun in his patrol car, that was marked as being a veteran of the Yuma State Prison, a most infamous place in the Southwest. Part of our duties was searching for and arresting ex-con fugitives, and that old shotgun seemed to be the perfect choice for that duty. BTW: great looking hat, Evan!
A good shotgun is a very versatile problem solver. I like guns with a story, that were used as intended. The hat is a Stetson Open Road 25, probably 1950 or 60 vintage. It was like new when I acquired it.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 You must have been a child when you got it and then grew into it.
@@frankhinkle5772 You are kind. I was born in 1944 and lived in a ranch house without running water until I was a freshman in high school. The hat was second hand, bought on Ebay about 15 years ago.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 Great find! And it seems to fit. Or it didn't and you wholloped on your own head with a 2X4 until it did. A great look. Maybe you owe us a story about your background.
Have almost excact same ,,die makes,,mine are only in the center of both sides so must be earlier model not so worn out ,yet gr8 vid
I have a model 94 mfg in 1896. The lines are very faint (nothing like the examples in video) even though the receiver is in very good shape.
Would u want to sale it by chance?
@@justinweaver8787 Sorry, it decorates the mantel in my family room
@@bobadams3661 i understand i just had to ask
I agree with mr. Rhodes a few comments earlier, this is an effect of the forging process, and because people carried it with their bare hands, the acids from their hands would etch into the folds of the forging. You can see how these striations actually go around the back of the frame beyond the Bloodlines and other portions of the shape. I have no answer as to the saddle Rings it's possible they were using those to lock them up and somehow lost the key and decided to take the saddle rings off to get the Firearms off of the lock if they lost the key. That is absolutely pure speculation, I have no idea why they would have lost those. I can understand why they would have taken the saddle ring off, because they were constantly rattling.
If you would like a more definitive answer, I would suggest it you get a hold of D&D gun shop in Troy Michigan and ask the proprietor. He probably knows as much about the manufacture of firearms and the Metallurgy used to manufacture them and procedures throughout history as any other human on the planet.
We have other firearms in the collection with the saddle ring removed. In the case of a Sharps 1859 carbine, the bar has been removed as well. The ring tended to rub the bluing off the receiver if it was left in place and probably made an annoying rattle, not a good thing for a hunter.
Are the pins and screws hardened.
Take pictures of both and overlay one on top of the other to see if the markings match. They look very similar. If they match, i would think at least that would rule out normal wear and point to manufacturing or tooling of some sort. If that is the case, the screws would not have any marks at all. Just a thought. I only watched this because I was looking for rifles made in 25-35 and the history behind them. Good Luck.
Check with the local gunsmiths for service records on these firearms as the pins and screws may have been replaced during servicing. The scratches look like they were laid across a concrete surface and needed attention after
looks like pattern welding process used to make the thing is what I'm thinking.
Yes i have , i started to round them up while i was high school in 1959 and after i got out of the army . I paid as low as $ 20 for some them , 1873 , 1892 models 94 , 64 , 71 surprising they were all in really good shape ,how many have i got around a 100 or more the last one i bought was 1892 model 32-20 , now it needs a lot of TLC..............The one i hunt with is a 44 mag. model 94 i bought in early 1968 . I never like the 1 in 38 barrel that came with it so i had the barrel change to 1 in 16 . You talk about a big change , from 50 yds. to a 150 yds with on sight change , and i use a peep sight , laugh if you want but 80 years old and i can still lay them in there with the best of these hot shots and there 6.5 and so on with a old Winchester lever action !!!
I have a wichester 94 made in 1937 32 win 32spcl still has its saddle ring
What were the serial numbers? Were any sequential?
I wonder what the bores on those 94s look like?
Best video ever.
The guard carried those the keys he carried on his head made those scratches
What does the thickness mic out to is it thicker and just hasn't been polished for the general public??
I haven't measured. I think the explanation that the marks are the result of the forging process is more believable than the possibility that the guns were factory seconds or not properly finished.
Interesting video 🇦🇺👍
Thank you! Glad you liked it.
If I was betting I would say the guns had been rebuilt armorers normally have those pieces and parts in parts supplies.way back when .38-55 was a target shooting round.
It does look like one of those did have a saddle ring on it at one time because of the circular scarring on the one rifle
They left the factory with the ring. Mine still has it and it came from an Alabama prison in the 30's.
@@lewisparker4488 Yes, I think all of them came with the ring. Not uncommon for the ring and staple to be removed.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 I bet 2 apple pies that the saddle rings were removed nano-seconds before they were gifted to the museum. They were robbed for parts. I might be wrong but I'm willing to bet I'm right.
@@adelarsen9776 I hadn't considered that possibility, but we have other firearms with missing parts. I'm away from the Museum and don't remember if the staples are also gone as well as the rings. There must have been a demand for rings or Winchester wouldn't have put them on so many guns. I wonder how many rings were actually used for their intended purpose.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 Not many. It is placed there for attachment to a saddle scabbard. Not too many horses riding the walls of US penal facilities.
Good health to you Sir.
The receiver is made out of wrought iron. Wrought iron has a wood like grain to it.
Do the rifles share a close serial number?
Do they have a W under the serial number?
Five of the carbines are dated 1915. Those have numbers in the 767XXX to 771XXX range, so close. Others were made 1918,1919, 1930,1959, 1961 so quite a spread in the numbers. No W under the numbers.
*easy to use and very well*
I'm guessing the Warden back then said to Winchester give me 50 rifles as cheap as you can. Winchester may have said we can make you guns at half the price from seconds/poorly machined parts.
I have a Remington model 8 in 35 rem Cal that was used in a prison has those same scratches on it it was my grandfather who carried it for the 15 years he worked there as a guard it's the keys they carry
I have Winchester usa 1894model what price
Where did u get that hat."..?
I think they came straight from the factory just like you see them. The factory probably sold them as blemished but fully functional at a very low price to a State agency.
Those lines are layers in the steel formed when forging.
@@geoffreyandemma Correct! I'm happy to learn the truth.
Maybe the "scratches" were placed there for a more positive grip with sweaty hands?
Nomenclature: 1894 - original issue series. model 94 - current continuation.
You are correct. Winchester stopped using the 1894 stamping in 1921 and then labeled the guns Model 94.
They infact did as a cheaper model as scrubs at a discount to low budget alternative mill stamp forgings
Could be. Note that the guns were dated between 1915 and 1961 so if they were factory seconds, the program went on for a long time.
Odd that the barrel band is in front of the front sight.
They were that way until the 30’s
You refered to them as "carbines"? If they're chambered in .30-.30 they are not a carbine. A carbine is a long gun/rifle chambered in a pistol caliber.
One could have a Henry rifle chambered in 30-30 and a Rossi carbine chambered in .44 mag, both lever rifles.
Hi Folks, I have a 1894 carbine 32WIN.SPÉCIAL with no Serial number on it , but stamped under the forehand on the barrel with a number 25 and like the book I have from the model 1894 this is the year of making and all the markings and type of tang, sights hammer and barrel markings and other variations of this carbine are like the ones of under the 1 millioun range. I can also exclued that the serial number was removed because you would find some kind of traces and I compared it with other carbines!
DOES ANYBODY KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT IF WINCHESTER SOLD SOME WITHOUT SERIAL NUMMBERS ON IT??? THS for your opinions! Roger from Central Europe
Sorry I don't have a definite answer about serial numbers. To the best of my limited knowledge, all 1894 Winchesters should have left the factory with a serial number stamped on the bottom front of the action. In the United States, possession of a firearm that should have a serial number and doesn't is problematic. The owner could be subject to a criminal charge and the gun confiscated. Don't know the laws in your neck of the woods. I suppose it is possible that your receiver missed the stamping. Seems unlikely but if there is no evidence that the serial number has been removed, it's probably a factory error.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 Thank you Sir, I bought it years ago and have it legal "here in the woods" in Luxembourg, there is no Mystery about it. I am verry happy with it and it shoots great, won a couple of Westernshooting at 50 yards and won't sell it, mabe my 3 son's in law can have it when I am gone. Thanks for your opinion Sir! So long..🤠
@@rogerscherer You are most welcome. I am pleased to hear that you are enjoying your Winchester and have been successful with it in competition. I also participated in what we call Cowboy Action Shooting and was the Wyoming State Champion in 1999.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 Well, know that I know you are a Cowboy Action Shooter, let us call ourselves by our Knicknames, I am Member of SASS since 2000 #46085 life and known as the SingleJack and my Glory day was 2009 in Italy and won the EOT in the Cowboy class, was once back in the days 4th of the German CAS Championship , and won a few local Area matches in Germany. Know at my fifty's I get into IDPA by a close friend of mine who won the World Champion title 2019 in the Revolver class as Sharpshooter , but the Westernguns will always be a favorite of mine!🤠
@@rogerscherer I was Coyote or Coyote Wyoming. A long time ago.
factory seconds sold to NONprivate bulk buyers (like military/prison/P.D.)
Those don’t look like scratches. If they were, not only would they cross the screws and pins, they would cross each other. They don’t. They’re perfectly parallel. They are too wavy for machine marks. That only leaves us with forging marks. The rifles pretty much had to come from the factory like that.
Yes. I agree they came that way and were not a result of handling at the prison.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 great work, by the way. I really enjoy your content.
Thank you!
@@SuburbanRifleman I'm glad you like the videos. We just did another series of eight that will be posted every other Friday. Couple of interesting ones are a Colt Artillery Model that may or may not have belonged to frontier scout Frank Grouard and a Winchester carbine associated with the Spring Creek Sheep Raid murders in Wyoming in 1909.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 Awesome. I will watch them for sure
maybe its from wedding ring if you carry a rifle in a wedding ring on you hand it might do that
Scratches probably from striking matches?
THEY WERE JUST BUILT like that the machine left them rough is all it was there milling marks, and they left them rough
I like that hat! Type/model?
It's a vintage Stetson Open Road Twenty Five, probably from the 1950s with my twist on brim shape.
@@evangreen3209 With hard earned sweat to boot!
@@nmelkhunter1 Yes, it's legitimate wear, was as new when I bought it.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 The best kind! Here’s to your health and more fine videos! 🍻
@@nmelkhunter1 Thank you. We plan to resume Firearms Friday videos after June 1. The virus disrupted our schedule. To your health as well my friend.
Maybe it was made to grip better. Sspecially on chain gangs, rain, sleet ice, who knows. I teresting for sure.
Looks like wrought iron, early metal fabrication.
Receivers are wrought iron.
The reason for the machining marks indicate They weren’t “benched”.
I don't know the term "benched." Can you explain please? Always will to learn something new.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 it refers to refining, de burring, & finishing machined, or otherwise fabricated parts, or details. Unless they are very large or otherwise unwieldy, they’re generally done on a bench.
@@calidodds4720 Thanks! I appreciate the information.
Looks like machinery marks
I just miced..my pre 64..top edge of the main block .24...I have a bill cody and a post 64..I think its 79 ...both of them are .25...my guess is the ones you have are not milled..or polished to save cost
Thanks for your comments. Interesting about the measurements. As you know, production techniques changed in the post-1964 Winchesters in an attempt to reduce manufacturing costs.
The wood stocks and fore grip are not scratched they would be scratched if the gate scenario was correct. I believe these are probably blem receivers models that were sold to correction facility at a cut rate most likely . I've done a significant amount of casting and would use a fine brush to get the basic formed mold to a pre cast stage. Some one made a mistake at the factory and didn't check the precast mold and used the wrong one somehow. Instead of trashing them they sold them to a customer that just needed the utilitarian function and didn't care about cosmetic blemish.
These aren't cast.
There have been only three firing squad executions in the last 45-50 years, all in Utah. At least in one they used Winchester model 94 30-30 rifles. Probably the other two as well.
I think Utah at one time gave condemned person their choice as to the method of execution. The last by firing squad was Gary Gilmore in 1977. I don't believe that's an option today.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 it used to be a choice, and no longer is. However those that had chosen it before can still go through with it. I think there are 2 left. Don't know what we're waiting for. Gilmore was not the last firing squad execution, he was the first after they overturned Furhman, he was in 1977. They've had two more since John Albert Taylor in 1996 and Ronny Lee Gardiner in 2010.
@@ltdc426 Thanks for the correction. That's what I get for depending on Wiki for information.
@@wsmvolunteers8588 yeah, I don't know how hard it can be for wiki to update. Our modern media info source I suppose.
Are those actual scratches or remnants of the bluing left in lines? Run your fingernail across the receiver and see if you can feel ridges or scratches. Many receivers on older Winchester lever actions wear in similar patters as seen here but they are not actually scratches in the metal, for some reason, maybe the metallurgy of the time? Barrels, or any other parts of the guns that I have seen do not wear in this pattern, only the Winchester receivers. Usually these types of striations on the Win. receivers seem to occur mainly in models made from about 1900-1940, and not all models of that time period. It must have something to do with the metal and the conditions in which caused the wear, ie. cleaning chemicals, humidity, and maybe even the material used to clean the guns with. Not really sure why this happens but I have seen it many, many times on these old Winchester receivers.
By the way the first cartridge loading's for the Winchester model 1894 were two black powder cartridges, the .38-55 and the .32-40 in 1894. In 1895 Winchester changes the metal in the barrels to allow for higher pressure rounds and then chambered the first smokeless cartridge .30-30 and became the first American repeating rifle developed for smokeless powder cartridges. The .38-55 and the .32-20 cartridges were also very accurate calibers and were chambered for many of the target rifles of the period such as the Winchester Highwall.
I hope some of this info helps.
Thank you for this information. We appreciate your comments. I have a Marlin 1893 in .38-55 made in 1906. It is surprisingly accurate given the condition of the bore. Based on research by Museum staff and information from other posters, we believe the striations are from the forging process at the Winchester factory. We have noted similar striations on a Colt Lightning in the collection, and on an early Winchester 1892 in .25-20 in a private collection.
Aka the Spruce gun
the only thing that I can think of is when they're going to in and out of their locked Gates they're scratching it on the side of the gate when the gate comes back and hits their plate on that rifle because some of those gates are spring loaded that's the only thing I could think of
The wood stocks and fore grip are not scratched they would be scratched if the gate scenario was correct. I believe these are probably blem receivers models that were sold to correction facility at a cut rate most likely . I've done a significant amount of casting and would use a fine brush to get the basic formed mold to a pre cast stage. Some one made a mistake at the factory and didn't check the precast mold and used the wrong one somehow. Instead of trashing them they sold them to a customer that just need the utilitarian function and didn't care about cosmetic blemish.
Well, very interesting all the comments here, but no one got an idee why my carbine has no serial number, see my comment a month ago 🤠
👍
They look like factory marks to me.
I agree.
i love my carbean
I have a model 1894 manufactured in 1899, it does not have the stirations as yours does. The receiver is very smooth and looks machine polished.
Interesting, thanks for the comment. Is the bluing mostly intact on your gun? I think the lines may become visible only when the finish is worn?
winch....number one !!!!
Nah...
They were scared by the wooden rifle keeps on the towers they were rough cut lumber and asbestos shingle side
I think that could explain the damage to the stocks.
32-40
I feel much safer watching the video 1500 miles away knowing the weapons have been verified unloaded just like the ones on the Rust movie set.
We do a much better job than Hollywood. We try to set an example of proper gun handling. We've never had a negligent discharge.
For all your 66 76 86 92 94 95 Winchester parts and screws homestead parts.com Tucson Arizona