TLDR / TLDW (Revelation) @ 24:33 Summary: Don't get IPA anywhere near these when fitted. Clean using soapy water on a rag / paper towel in future and you will be fine! I believe what's happening is the underside of the key does not have the same solid smooth surface that the top and sides have (due to mold). The IPA wicks up micro channels in the plastic, and due to stresses of the plunger being fitted, it allows it to crack. As commented down below - I tested on the spare keys and there is a problem when IPA makes contact with the underside when the key has a plunger fitted. *Update: 10/09/2023* - Dan Tootill has confirmed the problem on a couple of his spare transparent keys (clear and red). *Update: 14/09/2023* - Jim (CBMSTUFF) has suggested that you cannot clean any ABS plastic with IPA... That's interesting, because every piece of ABS on the 100s of systems and accessories I own have been cleaned with IPA, every single keyboard that ever came my way when I was in the trade was cleaned with IPA, thousands of systems were cleaned with IPA. The issue I think is its not just ABS on the transparent keys. What annoys me about this is the way he's reacted. Indiegogo Campaign - www.indiegogo.com/projects/keycaps-for-your-commodore-computer/x/10876693#/ Dan Tootill (helpful chap in the C64 community) - twitter.com/dantootill .....
If the key caps are Acrylic then any alcohol I.e. methylated spirit or IPA will react with it and cause it to "Craze" I first encounter this working on cars if you wipe plastic light lenses with meths or IPA it instantly destroys it's self it doesn't need to be under any sort of stress... 😒
I would say that, in general, people in the retro community reach very quickly to isopropylalcohol, while it is a rather strong solvent. Personally my default alcohol is simple ethanol. For many tasks people use IPA, such as removing solder flux, ethanol works just as well and it is a much less strong solvent. It is also way cheaper, a bottle of fuel for a decorative fireplace is 98% ethanol and dirt cheap compared to IPA. That said, I didn't know IPA was harmfull to plastics.
Story time! My parents needed a new screen. They checked with me and I recommended a nice IPS panel with anti-glare plastic coating. Their previous screen was somewhat mistreated, so I was very clear explaining: only clean this screen with the cloth you use for your glasses, do not use any chemicals. Got it! I come back months later and the screen is full of hideous white smears in arcs that repeat all over the screen. What happened??? Well, they used the cloth they use to clean their glasses. Tiny single-use alcohol-soaked paper towels. FML.
Isopropyl alcohol tends to promote crazing in acrylic, as it does in many transparent plastics. Some acrylic grades are more alcohol-resistant than others: resistance is typically a function of the molecular weight of the polymer, with higher molecular weight providing better alcohol resistance. Diluted solutions of isopropyl alcohol can be used to wipe down acrylic without adverse reaction but even then you're better off with just using soapy water. Anyway, this is "common knowledge" in the automotive industry. Anyway, every time I see people spray IPA over plastics I cringe. IPA should NEVER be used on any (non-HDPE) plastics that you care for.
I just checked my own keycaps. They are still in the platic bags. They feel really solid and the quality is good. Must have been a different plastic than what you are used to, GadgetUK. I've seen you use ipa on plastic cases for many years without problems. I took one for the team and squezed one with my fingers semi hard. No problem.
The key caps ended up being cracked upto be as expected! By the way, I got the black key caps... and noticed the restore key text is printed slightly lower than it should be... its not quiet centered!
Bad News.. I am pretty confident the IPA "see 12:26 onwards played at minimum TH-cam speed" caused an uneven chemical reaction, uneven because one side of the Plastic was exposed to more IPA than the other side ergo stressing JUST those keys. *NOTE* Err-Yeah note how just after the space bar was removed 12:07 none of the keys were exposed on a single surface to IPA ergo they appear pristine, but as soon as you started using the IPA or cleaning solution those keys experienced their grief.. Pay attention to the "V" Key..
Rather than your UV cure glue which will more than likely have different optical properties to the plastic, I don't know for sure if this would work but you could try some EMA plastic weld to repair the cracks. Be careful though, a tiny amount on a small brush will suck into the gap by capillary action. It will dissolve the printing so don't get anywhere near that. It's purely a solvent so once evapotated you're left with only the original plastic.
@GadgetUK164, you can see the crack appearing on the cursor up/down keycap. Set to 1/4 speed and play from here: th-cam.com/video/kZvK-8N9tCE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=dXjh0SoIqtP7lHnG&t=747 It's a reaction to the IPA 🙁 Not sure the plastic used, but it's reacting
I think it's the IPA travelling up the inside of the plastic, rather than the plastic having a reaction to the IPA! I tested on the 2 spare keys and that does seem to be the case. ie. when not fitted to a plunger, they are fine with IPA.
Might have got away with the cotton buds, but I bet the tissue made contact with the keys directly. Can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing, because I wouldn't even have considered this 😞
@@GadgetUK164 Interesting, the nail brush I mentioned in my comment cracked where the bristles were held into the plastic, which would have been a point of pressure from the bristles being held tightly in place, a bit like the plunger on your keys. Perhaps some combination of both. Certainly worth people being made aware of either way.
I've got a set of white keycaps that will be delivered later in the week (Sept. 10). I'll test out an extra key with a little IPA to see what happens. They'll be going on my 64C and I'll make sure I keep IPA well away from that machine from now on!
Your fastidious desire for cleanliness and order has finally got you, Gadget! If you'd left them all grimy and dirty like all my machines, instead of waving that IPA around, it'd have been grand! ;-)
Funny title hehe. Thanks for the heads up, allthoguh I usually just use mild soap for dirt, I could get IPA on them while fixing something else., so in that case thanks for the heads up and sorry to see yours crack. CBMSTUFF sent an backer-update mail speaking about this issue btw recently after you posted this video.
Oh wow. That's amazing that IPA will do that - i understand a bit more after reading some of the comments here. I have the Red and Black transparent keys. No cracking from just sitting on the stems at least. I'll have to be careful
Cool looking keys for the transparent case :) Very good to learn this about isopropyl alcohol, probably in the future I'll use it as a last resort, if less aggressive cleaners don't work.
Yes, I did mention just at the end there - probably the IPA! And I've tested since, and Dan Tootill has - IPA causes this problem with the transparent keys!
I have very mixed feelings about a clear case and clear keys. We as nerds, all love to see the circuitry inside our retro computers, and what's better than to have a clear case for this purpose? But, things collect dust, and that beautiful view soon becomes disgusting. This is even worse with the clear keys, there is nothing under there to see but a big black plastic plate that will show any tiny particle of dust that falls down in there. It is a matter of taste, I know but I think although I would have gone for a clear case, I would never ever have gotten clear keys. I don't know if non clear keys have the same cracking problem (different material?) but even if they did, they wouldn't show this much.
What did you use to clean the bottom of the keyboard? You can literally see the cracks starting to form right after that in the video at 12:28 onwards. I remember cleaning some paint brushes once with some white spirit or turps, whatever it was (not saying you have used that) but then using a clear plastic nail brush to work the paint out of the bristles. A few minutes later the nail brush fell apart. The stuff I used to clean the paint brush destroyed the plastic in the nail brush. I wonder if this is what's happened. Maybe something you can test with a spare key?
@@GadgetUK164 I imagine the plastic construction is very thin so doesn’t take much. I had this exact same issue when changing a game gear for a clear shell… cracks appeared where I had used IPA to clean it.
Just a thought - what did you wash the bottom of the keyboard with? Maybe that substance reacted with the plastics which would explain why it affects the bottom row only. Aside from that, there must be some tension in those caps forcing them to split. Since you said there are different grades of plastics involved, maybe the broken keycaps had some manufacturing defect as well? Apart from that, I never liked the translucent plastics look, not back when it was a thing around 1999 and not today either - but thats just personal taste.
Just IPA! Same thing we all use to clean every keyboard ever! I tested on the two spare keys (and filmed if I feel like sharing that later) - the keys looked perfect at the start, dip base in IPA when they have a plunger fitted and they crack. The IPA does appear to wick up imperfections in the underside plastic (due to mold orientation and pressure etc), and as it wicks up it somehow causes the fracture. IPA on the surface of the keys (top and sides) seemingly has no effect.
are they actually cracks or stress marks in the plastic? with Abs plastics you can have white stress marks in coloured plastic and you can gently heat it to remove the stress marks, guess as they are clear its more apparent and i not sure heating it would help in this case
Not that I can tell! I tested on the two spare keys (and filmed if I feel like sharing that later) - the keys looked perfect at the start, dip base in IPA when they have a plunger fitted and they crack. The IPA does appear to wick up imperfections in the underside plastic (due to mold orientation and pressure etc), and as it wicks up it somehow causes the fracture. IPA on the surface of the keys (top and sides) seemingly has no effect.
Hehe =D I am OK with them tbh - I would prefer them to not have cracks, but I suspect CBMSTUFF won't be able to replace them any time soon since he's out of the clear sets...
Great content and thanks for sharing with us. The keycaps are bad i think out of manufacturing. Can you claim it? Greetings from Steven from the Netherlands
I am not sure, I suspect it probably affects a large number of these. It was hard enough for the creator of the campaign to get the factory to produce and deliver them to start with. I would personally be happy with replacements for the cracked keys, and will keep IPA away from them.
TLDR / TLDW (Revelation) @ 24:33
Summary: Don't get IPA anywhere near these when fitted. Clean using soapy water on a rag / paper towel in future and you will be fine! I believe what's happening is the underside of the key does not have the same solid smooth surface that the top and sides have (due to mold). The IPA wicks up micro channels in the plastic, and due to stresses of the plunger being fitted, it allows it to crack. As commented down below - I tested on the spare keys and there is a problem when IPA makes contact with the underside when the key has a plunger fitted.
*Update: 10/09/2023* - Dan Tootill has confirmed the problem on a couple of his spare transparent keys (clear and red).
*Update: 14/09/2023* - Jim (CBMSTUFF) has suggested that you cannot clean any ABS plastic with IPA... That's interesting, because every piece of ABS on the 100s of systems and accessories I own have been cleaned with IPA, every single keyboard that ever came my way when I was in the trade was cleaned with IPA, thousands of systems were cleaned with IPA. The issue I think is its not just ABS on the transparent keys. What annoys me about this is the way he's reacted.
Indiegogo Campaign - www.indiegogo.com/projects/keycaps-for-your-commodore-computer/x/10876693#/
Dan Tootill (helpful chap in the C64 community) - twitter.com/dantootill
.....
If the key caps are Acrylic then any alcohol I.e. methylated spirit or
IPA will react with it and cause it to "Craze" I first encounter this working on cars if you wipe plastic light lenses with meths or IPA it instantly destroys it's self it doesn't need to be under any sort of stress... 😒
I would say that, in general, people in the retro community reach very quickly to isopropylalcohol, while it is a rather strong solvent. Personally my default alcohol is simple ethanol. For many tasks people use IPA, such as removing solder flux, ethanol works just as well and it is a much less strong solvent. It is also way cheaper, a bottle of fuel for a decorative fireplace is 98% ethanol and dirt cheap compared to IPA.
That said, I didn't know IPA was harmfull to plastics.
Story time!
My parents needed a new screen. They checked with me and I recommended a nice IPS panel with anti-glare plastic coating. Their previous screen was somewhat mistreated, so I was very clear explaining: only clean this screen with the cloth you use for your glasses, do not use any chemicals. Got it!
I come back months later and the screen is full of hideous white smears in arcs that repeat all over the screen. What happened???
Well, they used the cloth they use to clean their glasses.
Tiny single-use alcohol-soaked paper towels.
FML.
Isopropyl alcohol tends to promote crazing in acrylic, as it does in many transparent plastics. Some acrylic grades are more alcohol-resistant than others: resistance is typically a function of the molecular weight of the polymer, with higher molecular weight providing better alcohol resistance. Diluted solutions of isopropyl alcohol can be used to wipe down acrylic without adverse reaction but even then you're better off with just using soapy water. Anyway, this is "common knowledge" in the automotive industry. Anyway, every time I see people spray IPA over plastics I cringe. IPA should NEVER be used on any (non-HDPE) plastics that you care for.
That's probably the issue then - the transparent nature of this set, it's probably made with acrylic!
If the function keys had been a slightly darker plastic, it would have been a nice touch.
I just checked my own keycaps. They are still in the platic bags. They feel really solid and the quality is good. Must have been a different plastic than what you are used to, GadgetUK. I've seen you use ipa on plastic cases for many years without problems. I took one for the team and squezed one with my fingers semi hard. No problem.
The key caps ended up being cracked upto be as expected! By the way, I got the black key caps... and noticed the restore key text is printed slightly lower than it should be... its not quiet centered!
It does look the nuts, cracks or no cracks.
=D
Bad News.. I am pretty confident the IPA "see 12:26 onwards played at minimum TH-cam speed" caused an uneven chemical reaction,
uneven because one side of the Plastic was exposed to more IPA than the other side ergo stressing JUST those keys.
*NOTE*
Err-Yeah note how just after the space bar was removed 12:07 none of the keys were exposed on a single surface to IPA ergo they
appear pristine, but as soon as you started using the IPA or cleaning solution those keys experienced their grief.. Pay attention to the "V"
Key..
Rather than your UV cure glue which will more than likely have different optical properties to the plastic, I don't know for sure if this would work but you could try some EMA plastic weld to repair the cracks. Be careful though, a tiny amount on a small brush will suck into the gap by capillary action. It will dissolve the printing so don't get anywhere near that. It's purely a solvent so once evapotated you're left with only the original plastic.
@GadgetUK164, you can see the crack appearing on the cursor up/down keycap. Set to 1/4 speed and play from here: th-cam.com/video/kZvK-8N9tCE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=dXjh0SoIqtP7lHnG&t=747 It's a reaction to the IPA 🙁 Not sure the plastic used, but it's reacting
He show that in the end of the video...
I think it's the IPA travelling up the inside of the plastic, rather than the plastic having a reaction to the IPA! I tested on the 2 spare keys and that does seem to be the case. ie. when not fitted to a plunger, they are fine with IPA.
Might have got away with the cotton buds, but I bet the tissue made contact with the keys directly. Can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing, because I wouldn't even have considered this 😞
@@GadgetUK164 Interesting, the nail brush I mentioned in my comment cracked where the bristles were held into the plastic, which would have been a point of pressure from the bristles being held tightly in place, a bit like the plunger on your keys. Perhaps some combination of both. Certainly worth people being made aware of either way.
I've got a set of white keycaps that will be delivered later in the week (Sept. 10). I'll test out an extra key with a little IPA to see what happens. They'll be going on my 64C and I'll make sure I keep IPA well away from that machine from now on!
Your fastidious desire for cleanliness and order has finally got you, Gadget! If you'd left them all grimy and dirty like all my machines, instead of waving that IPA around, it'd have been grand! ;-)
🤣
Funny title hehe. Thanks for the heads up, allthoguh I usually just use mild soap for dirt, I could get IPA on them while fixing something else., so in that case thanks for the heads up and sorry to see yours crack. CBMSTUFF sent an backer-update mail speaking about this issue btw recently after you posted this video.
Oh wow. That's amazing that IPA will do that - i understand a bit more after reading some of the comments here. I have the Red and Black transparent keys. No cracking from just sitting on the stems at least. I'll have to be careful
Cool looking keys for the transparent case :) Very good to learn this about isopropyl alcohol, probably in the future I'll use it as a last resort, if less aggressive cleaners don't work.
You can use IPA on any other key on any other system - avoid using it on the front of bread bin key caps though.
I noticed that the keys cracked when you was cleaning the space bar part, maybe the liquid you use maybe IPA affected the keys 👍✌
Yes, I did mention just at the end there - probably the IPA! And I've tested since, and Dan Tootill has - IPA causes this problem with the transparent keys!
@@GadgetUK164 Good to know for anyone with transparent material that IPA could affect it 👍✌
I have very mixed feelings about a clear case and clear keys. We as nerds, all love to see the circuitry inside our retro computers, and what's better than to have a clear case for this purpose? But, things collect dust, and that beautiful view soon becomes disgusting. This is even worse with the clear keys, there is nothing under there to see but a big black plastic plate that will show any tiny particle of dust that falls down in there. It is a matter of taste, I know but I think although I would have gone for a clear case, I would never ever have gotten clear keys. I don't know if non clear keys have the same cracking problem (different material?) but even if they did, they wouldn't show this much.
What did you use to clean the bottom of the keyboard? You can literally see the cracks starting to form right after that in the video at 12:28 onwards. I remember cleaning some paint brushes once with some white spirit or turps, whatever it was (not saying you have used that) but then using a clear plastic nail brush to work the paint out of the bristles. A few minutes later the nail brush fell apart. The stuff I used to clean the paint brush destroyed the plastic in the nail brush. I wonder if this is what's happened. Maybe something you can test with a spare key?
Watch the cursor up down key at 1/4 speed playback 😞
Yep the crack appeared after IPA (Isopropyl Alcohol went onto the bottom row of Keys :()
Just IPA! Good old IPA!
@@DaveDoc1984 I think the IPA wicked up micro channels in the underside of the plastic and caused it to split with the pressure from the plunger.
@@GadgetUK164 I imagine the plastic construction is very thin so doesn’t take much. I had this exact same issue when changing a game gear for a clear shell… cracks appeared where I had used IPA to clean it.
Just a thought - what did you wash the bottom of the keyboard with? Maybe that substance reacted with the plastics which would explain why it affects the bottom row only. Aside from that, there must be some tension in those caps forcing them to split. Since you said there are different grades of plastics involved, maybe the broken keycaps had some manufacturing defect as well?
Apart from that, I never liked the translucent plastics look, not back when it was a thing around 1999 and not today either - but thats just personal taste.
Just IPA! Same thing we all use to clean every keyboard ever! I tested on the two spare keys (and filmed if I feel like sharing that later) - the keys looked perfect at the start, dip base in IPA when they have a plunger fitted and they crack. The IPA does appear to wick up imperfections in the underside plastic (due to mold orientation and pressure etc), and as it wicks up it somehow causes the fracture. IPA on the surface of the keys (top and sides) seemingly has no effect.
are they actually cracks or stress marks in the plastic?
with Abs plastics you can have white stress marks in coloured plastic and you can gently heat it to remove the stress marks, guess as they are clear its more apparent and i not sure heating it would help in this case
Not that I can tell! I tested on the two spare keys (and filmed if I feel like sharing that later) - the keys looked perfect at the start, dip base in IPA when they have a plunger fitted and they crack. The IPA does appear to wick up imperfections in the underside plastic (due to mold orientation and pressure etc), and as it wicks up it somehow causes the fracture. IPA on the surface of the keys (top and sides) seemingly has no effect.
Are the bottom row key cracked? or is it Klingon?
Why oh why can't spacebars just have 3 switches (wired in parallel)? I'd be willing to pay the extra £2
Those keys look cracking! sorry..... ARE cracking!
LOL! Cracking comment!
It looks good. How is the OCD ? (sorry. lol)
Hehe =D I am OK with them tbh - I would prefer them to not have cracks, but I suspect CBMSTUFF won't be able to replace them any time soon since he's out of the clear sets...
@@GadgetUK164 It's just a shame it's the bottom row.
Great content and thanks for sharing with us. The keycaps are bad i think out of manufacturing. Can you claim it? Greetings from Steven from the Netherlands
Medelander!! :)
Hallo en ook goedendag
@@RDJ134
I am not sure, I suspect it probably affects a large number of these. It was hard enough for the creator of the campaign to get the factory to produce and deliver them to start with. I would personally be happy with replacements for the cracked keys, and will keep IPA away from them.