Elden Ring - Meta Level Discussion - Meta is More than Just Duels and Why We Need 2 Metas
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 มี.ค. 2022
- Scott's Discussion on Meta: • Why the Elden Ring Met...
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A few closing thoughts to add. Naturally playing through the game you'll easily hit 150, I hit 150 and still had 3-4 bosses left to tackle and don't expect players to stop leveling at 120/125 and hang onto 9 million souls while finishing a playthrough strictly for a duelist meta, that's going to be a very small part of the overall community.
At the same time, I think going beyond 150 begins to give you too much flexibility. I think once you get into the 170+ range you have enough stats to reach softcaps and multiple damage stats and that's getting too insane.
150 would be fine if player damage wasn't so high but I'm sure from will nerf a lot of things in the future. I personally would rather see 130-135 since it gives you extra 10 to spec into whatever is lacking from a 125 build. But even then I think the biggest problem is just how much damage each person can spit out and almost all level ranges the fight is over within 3 attacks. If from doesn't nerf the damage values I would almost say chugging flasks in a duel would be ok at this point just to keep them interesting.
@@ZachIsTerrible Problem is if they nerf damage all of a sudden people are struggling in PvE. Some of the late game bosses are insane.
I’m so glad you made this. I literally told a friend of mine that I was tempted to try your arcane dragon blood build you have a video on, and this dude ripped into me telling me that I should try to do something other than “the meta”. I feel like meta is such a stereotype now, I just wanna enjoy this game in every way Lol And if I can pull off doing it to another player then awesome, if not then GG.
@@FightinCowboy True beating Malenia at 100 was a chore. I think the best solution to the problem is lowering damage done to other players by a bit or just normalize chugging in duels since 1-2 shot duels seem pretty common at 120
@@ZachIsTerrible Yeah a PvP specific nerf would work, slice all damage in pvp across the board by like 30% or something.
There are so many weapons and spells that have hybrid requirements. int/faith, faith/arcane, int/arcane. This game does so much to encourage you to use those different stats and you have to lock yourself out of the coolest shit in the game to stay at a low level.
there is also triple requirment for a good amount of stuff
There's a lot of talismans and items that increase your stats for free. Get a seal talisman for 20 free points you can invest somewhere else, as well as the +5 skill talismans, you could easily get several end game items for low levels.
This can also apply for high lvl meta. Getting seal with the two +5 dex talismans and a physick, you have 30 free dex right there. You can then leave it at 50 and invest the 30 into something else for duels.
Biggest issue is poise. If you put level too high, you'll have Havel casters all over again. Builds that only care about 1 or 2 stats will dominate, doesn't matter how many cool weapons you lock yourself out on if theres 120+ poise mages with 2k+ life and 80 int. that's what you'll see at 150. Mages who don't care if you hit them casting.
@@SirSabzZa most spells have no poise now though, and the ones that do are pretty mediocre, higher health is much more important to a mage than better armor imo.
@@jimtsap04 all spells are interrupted when you are staggered, staggers is determined by your poise. Everything you just said is false lol.
Another important thing to take in to account is that a lot of the late game enemies are clearly scaled for you to be at least 130 to fight them comfortably as a somewhat casual player
This I swear the tuning for late game even on your first playthrough is somewhere around lvl 130-150.
Hell even on my super high level 300 in NG+ Farum Banished knights wreck my health bar to almost a one shot with their quick casted little fire breath that they do.
End game bosses still beat me to death with like 2-4 hits, that's with 1700 health and 40%+ physical and 30%+ magic resist.
@@Shishomuru Its always been a weird quirk of endgame Fromsoft design to just make enemies that delete your health, its endemic in their dlc
yea because the game is meant to be played slower, fully exploring and killing, this leads to higher levels going into the late game.
So many people are afraid of change bro because of ds3’s 40/40 mindset. This game is not ds3 we need to embrace the change. There’s way too much in this game to gimp yourself at 120. Great video man
I keep telling everyone this, but not including the buffs to stats you receive from talismans, flask, and runes…
You. Can. Do. Everything.
Why be afraid of change when it’s worked very well before?
Prior games would not have had the lifespan in pvp they had if you had Havel quality builds that could reliably cast with a good amount of hp
Builds do not matter anymore and pvp WILL become stale.
That's not why people want it to stay at 125. The damage to health ratio is INSANE. if you hit TWO soft caps with 1900 health you and whoever runs that build will literally oneshot whoever gets hit first.
It's unfun and a huge problem at higher levels. 60 vig is the soft cap for health and everyone can hit it at 125
@@HumbleHomunculus new game new meta
@@HumbleHomunculus thats not the issue
In duels all those oneshot tools wont do shit
People are arguing the 125 meta so people cant be mage backflipping havelmonsters in duels
Thats the only reason and the correct reason
@@agentace1476 Elden ring pvp discord already pretty much agreed 125 is meta level. So tbh content creators want to do 150, cool. I'll stick with the dueling scene.
You’re the goat cowboy. Started watching you from the Far Cry 3 & 4 walkthroughs and stuck with you ever since. Thanks for the informative videos and keep going hard
I think 150 is the way to go everyone seems to be hitting that naturally on their playthrough
This is another big thing. Majority of players aren't going to stop at 120 and hang onto 9 million souls mid playthrough for a strict pvp meta.
I've been dueling at 150 and it feels perfect 👌
Yeah I'm already 125 and have an entire zone to do still plus a few optional bosses. I'm just gonna go 150.
At 150, you can cast most great faith spells, have enough end to wear most armor and hold most weapons, have essentially a quality build, and meet almost 2000 health and this isn’t counting flask, talisman, or rune buffs to leve.
150 give players the ability to do essentially everything. Builds won’t be builds anymore and that’s honestly boring. If you have quality Havel mages in prior games, pvp would NOT have had to playability that it’s had. Why is that wanted now?
@@zachharrelson9971 150 is enough for hitting a softcap and 60 vig. If you want to be a hybrid build say byebye to the softcap.
My main interest on the meta level question as an invader is to know what level range to avoid. I expect to see robust activity in the Royal Capital at level 90 with +20/+8 weapons respectively.
agree 100%! You cured my guilt of wanting to go to 150 (I stayed at 130 cause I couldn't make up my mind). But below 150 is so restrictive especially for people like me who want to spec into more than 1 stat.
@Steve Michael ill tell you whats fkn weird? Not understanding such obvious sarcasm. You think I feel actual guilt relating to a video game? Wtf? The fact you took that seriously - that is fkn weird.
I just love seeing the discussion around meta level. I saw Scott's video first, and thought he made a lot of sense, but listening to you, as well as others, has made me rethink the meta a bit. I really like your point about the shifting definition/use of the word. It's real tough to reach concensus when definitions are muddied, so thank you for bringing light to that issue.
I've pretty much destroyed any argument for 125. I welcome others to try me.
I once saw a moon in pvp during a fight club. No one was expecting that and victim was oneshoted. Good times.
Where are people fight clubing?
@@thefifthbelfry92 church of elleh, it was a fight club hosted by youtuber Okoii
@@thefifthbelfry92 I've been having no issue summoning people for duels at the beginner area
I blocked it with my shield bruh barely got any dmg
Yeah I'm not gonna lie, I feel like hybrids will barely function at a 125 meta or be severely underpowered compared to people picking one thing and dumping all their runes into that. I get the flexibility is the trade off but with the majority of cool or interesting weapons have such a big split in their stat scaling and requirements that the game is BASICALLY taunting you to hybrid.
They don’t. So much of the 125 argument is based solely off of numbers on a spreadsheet and that one Jund vid. Hell, Oroboro went from “it’ll be higher than 120” to literally just parroting Scott’s video. At this point I say just leave them to their old ways. They all just want ds3 part 2. You can see it with how they all complain that passive poise is a thing again… 6 years of “wOrKiNg aS IntEnDed” and now we have passive poise AND hyper armor and they act like it’s a bad thing? It’s just so weird.
Playing the game for the game they want it to be instead of the game that it is.
@@mkv2718 well, hyper armor is NOT working as intended, if you swing a 2 handed greatsword like the Claymore or the Knight's Greatsword, even if you have 100 poise, you will get staggered by a katana or any other light weapon because hyper armor overwrittes (for some reason) poise and hyper armor that 2h greatswords give is very minimal in Elden Ring compared to any other Dark Souls game.
Im at 198 probably going to stop at 200 and keep him as a PVE character then get another to 150. I can use my 200 to play around, explore and do the eventual DLC. If 150 is agreed upon eventually then ill have a character to swap to for co op pvp etc. Low metas are miserable and restrictive, especially in a game with this much variety.
Yeah but this is standard lol of course we need more than one class, I’ll make 3 tops if I have the time.
@@NotKenpachii you can get infinite amounts of larves, so who cares about new characters
@@AssoSiaa yeah I haven’t bothered making a second character yet other than one for my brother but I might make a naked build on another character for some fun and suffering
@@ace052330 some people just care about the fantasy of the game and getting stronger to be able to try everything the game has to offer. I have beaten every dark souls game and elden ring. And honestly I absolutely hate pvp in these games. I dont understand why its so popular. The hit registration has always been terrible. I mean you clearly hit someone, hear the sound and everything but they apparently dodged the attack and the opposite situation applies. You clearly dodge but get hit. Its more frustrating then fun. As far as respec goes. Did I miss something? You say respec as many times as you want but I have only found around 12 respec items or so. Is there a farmable enemy for this? If not then its even more reason to level up as much as you want to have fun. Also each new game plus increases the difficulty of which we know in dark souls, max new game plus is a nightmare in a lot of situations.
@@BoPheasant this comment is filled with a lack of understanding.. you clearly got carried by summons in every boss fight...
I never really thought about it that way, been following your dex build and I’m sitting at about 180 at the moment, and I wish I had stopped at 150 because your right I can just pump stats into everything no problem. Great thoughts cowboy!
I think people need to realize that ER isn't DS, and should not be treated as such. I mean the caps have effectively doubled in size. Okay, Vit is now also tied with Endurance, but damage is relatively higher in ER, FP consumption is higher, FP scaling per point is lower. Trying to base a meta around older games seems silly because it's not treating ER as its own title.
Who came up with this bs meta level thing
@@shadowu745 No one it was naturally created by matchmaking. Since you can only match with people near your level you won't be able to find other players at super high levels
The problem is the insane damage in elden ring, if people reach their 80 soft caps, any duel is over in 2 hits. A lower level forces people to give up some of that insane damage.
@@rayquaza1245 Thank you, I didn’t know that. I think 200 is perfect. I don’t want hybrid players getting screwed over.
@@Failzz8 its already over in 2 hits softcap or not just due to how insanely overtuned damage is in elden ring. The only fix is if from drastically reduced Player damage against other players while keeping damage the exact same in PvE
What we really need is a built in mechanic to drain levels off of our characters. Maybe just have it be part of the respec process and it gives you extra warning if you have unspent levels, and you don't get anything back from unspent levels. From incorporates that and now we don't need to worry about over leveling, we can get to 150+ for general playthrough and if we want to pvp we can just drain levels off to get down to 120, maybe 130.
The problem with this is people will level up then get all the end game equipment and stay boost items and drop the levels again to stomp on new players. I 100% agree with you and wish we could but it would be abused.
@@Boertjie07 I agree, but people who wanna twink will twink either way. Back in DS1 there were some who would play through most of the game near base level just to be dicks to low-level players. But level-drain would certainly make that easier.
Though looking back at how DS3 took weapon level into account for coop and invasions I'm not even sure the game would only look at character level anyways.
@@Boertjie07 They’d have to beat the game with no upgrades. People can already drop them anyway
Your wording threw me off. But I get what you mean. Level cap when you pvp
@@Boertjie07 then the level reduction system can only work above a certain minimum level.
Great discussion here. I am using a faith build right now and have no idea how I would make under 100 or 125 work for that.
That updated faith build has me intrigued. Your first one is awesome.
Thanks for the great content!
Looking forward to seeing the updated faith build. Do you mind sharing your splits for your faith build
Out of curiosity, do you agree with me that 135 would work?
The community has to get out of the ds3 mindset. My experience with the game has shown me that you can have many hybrid builds that are viable. And not builds in ds3 like pure str with a lot of poise or pure dex builds. The game is encouraging hybrid builds.
No vitality stat gives you so much more points to dump into.
DS3 has always been cancer.
Sorry, I meant to say that even tough the game is a complete mess, worse than the absolutely unfinished 2, the community of 3 is so cancerous it's not even funny.
Great video! I really like your idea of having 2 "meta" levels, the duelist meta and the community meta. Since souls games are kinda hitting the point of becoming main-stream, I think this is the best compromise so everyone can enjoy the game the way they want and still have plenty of ppl to connect with.
Yeah, but you don't want to divide the community. There is already PlayStation and Xbox division, then console and PC division.
The point of a level cap is to unify all of the players leftover after the majority had moved on.
That is what gave the dark souls games their years of longevity after their releases.
@@neilkuckman6627 indeed, but I think the ppl who stick around are gonna be the more hardcore pvp players dueling at 125 anyways. 150 as a community lvl is for the ppl still doing a lot pve and want varience but might dabble in some pvp. While population is still huge, it's no problem to just have 2 different lvl caps. :P
@@shadow_psych7069 Okay, That explanation makes more sense. Thank you.
I still think splitting the community, is a bad choice, but I guess we will see. Haha.
@@neilkuckman6627 splitting could be a problem, but I think the community will just adapt if it becomes an issue. It’s not like console vs PC where the players have no real power to fix a split community - it will only require a new build or just adjusting a current build to align with what the community is gravitating towards. Plus if people are able to more consistently find PVP matches that fit their preferences they’ll be more likely to stick around longer.
Currently settling at roughly 175, and feeling the comfort of my build in the same way I felt at at 125 in previous souls games. With soft caps being raised, and the sheer amount of content, I just feel like 125 doesn’t make sense anymore.
issue is hitting those softcaps makes you deal INSANE damage to players, it becomes a 2 shot paradise for any build at 175, probably less a lot of the time, since most will be investing those extra 50 points to mind or damage stats
@@azu1394 the tryhards will deal insane damage anyways. Same for the braindead idiots copying them.
That's not really an argument, mate. Gotta have more meat there.
@@azu1394 You can already deal insane damage to player at 125, trust me even 100 more levels won't make a big difference. My lighting spear at 125 hits for 3k damage. At 150 I have more Mind and Endurance, that's literally it.
I strongly disagree with 175 because that is double stat cap territory. You will see makes with 50 endurance and 100 poise. You don't want that in your pvp meta my friend.
@@ArthaxtaDaVince777 I disagree, I think 175 is a good stopping point. There will be highly specialized builds at any meta, they'll just be stronger at 175. Since you need at least 40 vigor to even do anything, I think a higher meta is fair
Tbh, i'm leveling up a mage build and so far I'm right there with you. I see no way to make a usable build for all the sorceries I want to use with 125, I'd either be full glass cannon, or wouldn't be open to use some of the sorceries I'd want to use
People like Scott also don't take invading into meta consideration, which cowboy touched on a bit. People talk about how amazing the duelist pvp is and how it's the be-all-end-all for pvp, yet you look at the vast majority of people who stream/upload videos of their PvP, such as Oro, Peeve, Chase, Cowboy, etc., etc., especially ChaseTheBro in this particular instance where he's always doing invasions. Miyazaki designed Elden Ring's PvP to put invaders at a greater disadvantage than he has in any other FromSoftware game. Being confined to a one weapon/one playstyle build when you're constantly invading into a fully stacked game is going to do nothing but make people want to stop PvP'ing all together because there'll be no flexibility in the build to allow you to adapt to a bad situation, which most invasions will be. And with gank squads being so prevalent in the latest FromSoft games, Dark Souls 3 especially, going in with JUST Blasphemous Blade at your disposal to use Cowboys example means you're gonna have a bad time, especially since in a 1v3 situation the weapon art on it has such a long wind-up time that with no points put into mind for a 125 meta, you got 1 shot to kill someone, and if you don't it's game over. And even at that what pack of gankers would actually sit there and let you get off such a long casting skill. You're just begging to be backstabbed.
Completely true. Invaders actually have to be unpredictable and adaptable in order to win, so specific one trick pony builds are completely useless in invasions. By far the best part of invading for me has been seeing or the insane shit other people have and adapting to it on the fly.
there is no single one stat build in this game that lacks the flexibility you are saying invading requires, everything has access to every normal weapon
@@termiguin1 I use four different weapons on my level 60 PVP build and I win a good chunk of my matches
It's because as you said I'm not a one-trick pony I'm incredibly unpredictable and every one of my weapons are designed to adapt to a different situation and exploit a different weakness
Thank you Cowboy. The invasions have always been the bloodlife of the game. Duels are fun for sure, and I've always done them along with invasions. But as far as youtube content goes, invasions are the things that bring everyone together, casuals and pvpers. And what you said is true. New players are going to hear meta level and think "oh better stop leveling at 125" on any new characters because they want online content. But that mind set sucks when you wana have late game invasions and if you just want to play through the rest of the content without nerfing yourself.
Your solution seems great and I hope people consider it.
I've been stressing about what level to stop at because I really enjoy pvp in souls games but you make a good point about connectivity so I'm just gonna take a breather and just focus more on enjoying the game so thank you for that reminder!
I think from 100-150 you'll find plenty of ppl to duel and where you stop should probably depend on what you can get away with on your build while still having it be successful, or just stop wherever you feel like stopping. I think higher levels are generally more fun cos you can do more stuff. It all depends on what your particular build is.
I think its ironic that people want to complain that there would be no build variety at 150 cuz everyone can be havel monsters, and yet I've seen more build variety at 150 than I have at 125 and lower. Down at 125 everyone is just trying to minmax through talisman stat boosts and physic flask, and so everyone just ends up being the same build again, the exact same problem we were told was gona happen at 150.
I completely agree with this. My logic though is because of the mind stat, and ashes of war. Mind is mandatory for casters, and its not mandatory, but a really good idea for all other builds due to the diversity provided by ashes of war and the cost for the FP usage of some of those ashes. and if someone chooses not to level Mind at all, then they have limited uses out of ashes of war abilities. It's like similar to the reason 150 was chosen as the meta in dark souls 2, due to the adaptability stat, but not quite as mandatory.
Regardless, I'm all in for RL 150. Connectivity does not seem like it's going to be n issue for the for-seeable future, I get insta- summons in most locations still, and I love that :)
I'm 250 and still get insta-invades half the time. longest I've had to wait is like 5 mins
If you're doing duels you can bring like 6 FP flasks how much FP do you need?
@@anametoignore2286 about 40 to cast all my spells in a row
I'm glad someone said it; I fully intend to just keep going... Personally I'll always just keep going and leveling; I've always done that in DS3 and was still getting great encounters even at higher levels. But I'll also have something within range of end game NG+ (there about). GG's as always, Cowboy!
I haven't even watched the video yet, but your regularity in uploading consistent, informative and fun content to TH-cam for all to benefit from has been what has kept me around your channel since the DS2 days. Thanks you for your dedication Cowboy :)
Veteran PvP'er chiming in here:
The highest quality PvP has always been found significantly below the meta level. That said...
...a single Rune Level 125 meta would make the game unnecessarily difficult and elitist. I have witnessed an awful lot of gatekeeping in the community over the last few days. No player approaching the series for the first time should hit level 140+, finish the game, think to themselves...
'hey, what a great game...maybe I'll take my cool spells and loot online for a fight or two...'
...and then realise they need to create a brand new character to play at the meta. Elden Ring PvP is not like Dark Souls PvP and the sooner we ditch our preconceived notions about what it should be, the better. New players should not have to go through NG+ at Rune Level 125. No meta in the history of the Souls series has threatened to have a detrimental effect on people's offline experience of the game.
Elden Ring is grander and more epic than Dark Souls. The world isn't dying, it's just slightly past its prime. Weapons go to +25, soft caps are higher, weapons and spells are more epic, the ambitions of the Tarnished are more epic. The game is screaming for a Rune Level meta that allows players to feel like their battles are the stuff of legend.
Literally said most of these EXACT same words/points after watching the referenced counterpoint (I watched both of Scott's videos. 110% disagree with them both). This isn't Dark Souls. It shouldn't be treated like Dark Souls BECAUSE it's a different game. Scott gives examples of what he thinks is 'you can do all the things with these stats' and I sit here and go.. those stats not only don't make sense but are relatively useless and he's trying to state that it means that build can do everything? 50 STR and 60 DEX example gives you Vigor and then 0 END. The character is gonna be winded in a single roll-slash in his light armour.
Honestly, I don't think we need 2 metas. 150 is a great stopping point for both competitive PvP and general casual builds. You get enough points to experiment and flex but still have to pick a 'spec' as it were. The gimmick 1-shot builds aren't going to last and are just going to be niche for nub stomping trolls while everyone else adapts and parries ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Exactly. This game is too casual and too popular to have a meta level. You can find fights all the way from 1 to max level. The amount of rune farms and stuff make it so most people finish run 1 at 150ish, and run 2 around 200 to 250.
with a bad quality build at level 90 and +22 weapons I finished every boss, I even thought I was chunking Malenia too much than was probably intended. I'm not good at the PvE of souls games, I usually only do 2-3 playthroughs, some co-op on bosses I like, and then never touch it again, never done SL 1 runs. The only boss that I felt my damage was lacking on was Maliketh. Therefore I think a 125 meta for PvE is more than enough. That would breeze you through the first game and I imagine the first two NG+s at least. At 125 you can still get a primary stat to 60, health to 60, and desired secondary stats to a reasonable 20-30. You don't need to hit damage softcaps to be pretty much near-peak effectiveness, but even at 125 you can for most builds. At level 150 you can have a full melee stat, a full magic stat, and have the endurance to use the equivalent of havel's. It's ridiculous, honestly just as ridiculous for PvE as it is for PvP, if not more so.
@@Adam-th7qt Even if you are right and the game can be done around lvl 100-120 or less, it doesn't solve the issue that the regular player will finish the game at 150~. Or that at 120 lvl some builds work but plenty won't (sorcery, hybrids, etc).
You are just looking at the game from your single perspective which seems to be from an experienced player. Most players don't finish the game a couple of times at lvl 120. If we go that route, PvP will keep being an elitist niche. I'm willing to bring more people in.
You are pretty much gatekeeping, as the OP said.
I’m pretty much convinced this is gonna be the first fromsoft game that you can actually max level and have a shot at finding a summon.
The 150 meta just makes sense. This game is brutal in late game and the PVE experience demands higher stat investment for certain builds if you don't want to get one shot my strong enemies and bosses. My STR 150 build has zero stat points to spare as it all is dumped into vig, end and str to be able to dual wield ultra greatswords and have some good armor for defense.
I can't do everything as some META 120 people would say, I can only do one thing and that is flatten dex people with my two hunks of iron.
I get loads of duels at 150, I wonder what the most populated levels are, though.
like half of my invades at 250 are instant. Not sure why everyone is obsessed with past souls games meta lvls. Even my Fromsoft Stan friend said he had a feeling the meta lvl for Elden Ring is gonna be a bit higher than usual with the way the soft caps and build varieties are
@@Torpax_ this games is popular and still new so invading at all levels is viable for now. I am level 300 and still invade easily.
I'm only a minute in, but I know this man's gonna have a lot to say that's worth hearing.
Keep at it Cowboy, been loving all this Elden Ring content 👍
he actually keep repeating whatever he says during the first 3 min of this video over and over again for 20 min.
@@alanmaclain2285 I swear 😂😂
Yeah I agree. I think there is an ideal level for duels and ideal level for invasions, albeit we don’t know what each one is. In DS3 the duelist meta was 120 and I liked an invasion build of around 100 due to players being a bit under par for their builds, which I could take advantage of.
I'm glad you put that out, thanks !!
Insanely well argued and explained, I'm all for the 150 meta you've convinced me fully
Especially with the amount of split stat scaling weapons in this game being much more than before and the requirement for both faith AND int on a lot of spells means that 150 sounds MUCH more reasonable for a pvp meta imo.
Well, go do some duels in current 150 Ellen ring. Everyone’s hitting like 1400 dps combos and wearing 110 poise. It’s terrible.
issue is that while that build comes online the pure int adula’s one shots you at 60 vig lol
Yeah everything smacks insanely hard
@@Summonick2 And it's different at 125 or lower how?
@@asdergold1 you still go to 60 vig, but you don’t have as much stats to invest in raw damage and heavy armors and spells that damage amp you for example. Like almost 40 less stat points could mean like 200 less damage, and other fair weaknessss
Your point about meta being beyond dueling is exactly how I feel. Nice video
Maybe it's because the game has been out q while now, but I'm getting a ton of action above lvl 500. I almost always get a match instantly. And it's so much fun when you are an expert at everything. There's not as many one trick ponies. There are still the ROB and MV spammers, especially when they know they'll die if they don't, but it's fun to play with someone who switches from a great hammer to twin blades to Elden Stars. There's a lot of one shots, but not as many as you would think.
Great video Cowboy. Been watching your walkthrough series and it's excellent content. Anyways, I sincerely hope the community isn't foolish enough to get duped into thinking low level is a good thing.
I’m currently sitting at 157 and still have another 2-3 bosses and more dungeons to go through I think anywhere between 150-160 would be a good meta. I’ve easily hit that level by just going through content and if I really completed everything could stop at 160 and probably be sitting on a significant amount of runes.
you clearly don't see the problem with that. At that level I can do everything in a build, a hybrid mele-casting tank
I didn’t even know this was a thing! Really nice information. But I’ve never been good at PvP but all this is really good to know, thank you for that!
Hey congrats on 1 million subs, Cowboy! Love your channel. Every sub and then some is more than deserved!
I think the duel meta should be 150 seeing how you can get your build not insanely flexible but not choking yourself on worrying too much abt stats
16:38 What I _do_ agree with you about, is that 150 is definitely not going to go creating havelmonsters.
Im close to 150 and can EASILY get cumdumpstered by a bloody mutant bird underground. Someone even said their late game bleed build was up to 180.
@@kontankarite I’m at level 144 right now on a faith and strength build. Still getting crushed these enemies are no joke and I still haven’t hit the soft caps since I’m a hybrid. There are tons of signs at 150 btw
@@isamm_1336 Im dex bleed dual weild and I can get merced easy with 3 quick atracks. My life is at lvl 40.
It’s kind of already happening. Everyone’s just wearing 100+ poise and shooting spells
Yeah you just get fingerprint shielded
This is the most important conversation about the game. Hands down. Thanks for your time and thoughts
Always happy to come back to this channel for more Fromsoft guides a vids!
100% agree there is too much variety and build choices sticking at 125, just closes most of that and as you said just kills the fun and experience for the game. I think it would benefit everyone in the community if we has our own caps, as it gives new players the chance to experience all aspects of the game without worrying about the stat choices they make too much. And if players new to the franchise stick around surely that’s only going to benefit the community on a bigger scale.
Then pvp loses any sense of build and everyone can do everything.
If no one would’ve liked a Havel mage that also had a quality build in prior games, how to do reason that’s acceptable now?
At 150 you can use a wear most every armor and weapon together, have essentially a quality build, use 1 of the caster choices reliably, AND have almost 2000 hp before talisman, rune, and flask buffs to stats.
This just does not have a decently balanced pvp landscape like other games anymore at 150
@@zachharrelson9971 for a pvp purist absolutely agree. As cowboy said two metas would be the ideal as it’s gunna keep both sides of the camp happy I just think the 150 more so for casuals and pve players because as you can experience and experiment more freely, and naturally for those that then decide they like pvp and want to do it more competitive a simple rescale to 125 and your in business.
@@zachharrelson9971 The math for that doesn't seem to work. The way the meta was designed in souls games was that you could hit the soft cap for vigor and a damage stat and then enough points left over to actually be playable. Since the soft caps have risen by 20 points it only stands to reason that the meta would rise along with them.
@@daviddandridge5508 I agree with what you say man bit the only issue is hybrid builds... 120 just isn't enough stats I'd end up with 25 faith 25 str 20 mind 25 vig and 25 endurance. Maybe slightly more. Then your gunna have someone come along with 60 dex and a bleed weapon
@@Trowan1980 thing is duelists wont be hitting softcaps
Theyll be mixing stats to do everything and end up better than a player who goes to softcap
Personally I am just gonna level up until I'm tired of leveling up, i never cared for the meta in past soul games and never will. I don't do pvp anyway i only do coop.
Same. Never really understood the meta. If I stop leveling then all the runes/souls I earn now have no use and at that point there's no reason for me to keep playing if I can't upgrade my character anymore.
@@Frostwisperer exactly, i personally bought the game for the fun, the coop aspect of it and i want to be able to have everything max so i can then enjoy playing as whatever class i wish.
I don't understand you can't have a multiplayer arena on this game. everyone with the same level and equipaments you found in Single Player. Simple
People are speculating that will be DLC as there are a few collisseums around the world that we currently can't access 👀
@@SoFarSoGoodSoWhat14 yeah, there even seems to be an in game joke about it. Where you pick up the duelists finger & effigy there is a ghost npc who complains that “all I want to do is fight. Why won’t the doors open?” I think this is a pretty clear dig at the duelists, who often don’t care about pve in the slightest. From seems to be giving them a little jab. 🤗
the only reason people should be concerned w where to stop leveling is to find a consistently active summoning range. until the game dies down, meta level won’t be an issue. my prediction is that SL 199 will have plenty of action for years to come.
I wonder if From Soft will bring the SL351+ limit break as they did for Dark Souls 3.
Out of curiosity, why not an even 200?
@@Happyfoam-lw3yt running the numbers on dedicated builds and adding a few points here and there for quality of life stat requirements stop between 182-211 so 199 is in the middle.
@@JuiceDrank I want it to be 300
180 gets you to max vigor and endurance which I know they stop adding health and stamina already but they continue to raise your defenses against blight burn bleed poison rot and fall
We need it to level the pelting field
Between melee and casters because melee gets one shotted basically by every spell in the game that isn’t starting spell
Epic anime battles like the game was made will be a thing
It leaves you 120 levels to split into your attack stats
You could always take some levels from endurance and vigor but then your defenses are lower against status build ups and arcane buffs status build ups so people could make arcane builds etc. as well which won’t be so op as they are now without HEAVY stat investment but still even at 99 arcane they won’t be so op against people with 99 endurance and vigor
I swear I’m not joking please think about it and spread the word and save the meta
Once I reached lv 100 I haven’t been able to connect with anyone where I’m at in Hawaii
Personally, evn on my strength guy I can't do without some Mind. The extra FP is so worth for aow like Bloodhound's Step, which I feel like is almost a requirement in late game pve
When I ask about the meta for a particular souls game, I just wanna be able to play with others.
I always have 1 character that I just flat out end up maxing. For fun.
Then I have another character that sits at the community decided level, so I can still play with people.
Great video cowboy! I’m shooting for 150, and I hope to find plenty of people to fight with/co-op with there!
Also bearing in mind it depends on your platform. You can’t save scum anymore on PS5 (it may be possible he seems very hard now) whereas for PC users you can back up the save file, reallocate your stats and that becomes a new character. So it’s either settle on a level or spend the time making alts.
You can definitely "save scum" on PS5 still just as you could in the previous games hasn't changed at all in that regard, just grab w.e stuff you want all the weapons and upgrade materals/spells etc then just cloud save it and your good to go to raise or lower your lvl and weapon upgrade bracket as you please.
Just treat it like weight classes in PvP. It's fairly simple and makes for tons of diverse content as well as crossover between PvP and general community groups who want to collab. Plus it polices the "one shot builds" into a higher level (weight) class. Then people can build as they please. Keeps people happy. Plus I feel like this is what's gonna naturally happen anyways because people want to use the cool stuff in PvP like you said. There's just gonna be a hardcore/competitive meta and a soft meta latter until you hit the standard community pool. Or at least there should be.
that's exactly how it seems to be developing imo. I'm at 250 now and have no problems invading, haven't tried duels yet, tho
One-shots being higher level?
Mate, that's literally not how it works. It's the lower level stuff that has most of the one-shots.
At 500 no problem with invading or duels one shot easy
They way I tend to see it is that in Elden Ring, between 130 and 200 should be the bracket.
The two metas (duelist & community) seems like a great idea. Worth mentioning, their is a chance that the community is going to split in those two. But, a solution for that is have a different characters for different metas.
Exactly. My first character I just kept leveling until I was satisfied with my stats and abilities ended up at about lvl 200. Made a second character dedicated to PVP levels which I haven’t worked on much but will be stopping at 125/150 max
@@getfragged7051 dude I stopped leveling up at level 200 too lmao now thats a coincidence
im too lazy to make another character I wanna stick with one for everything
Gratz on the 1m my guy
This kinda of format of video in the future would be really nice cowboy
I remember SL 140 being kind of a psuedo-meta in DS3 and I think 140 might be a good spot for Elden Ring. Gives the hybrid builds enough to do their thing, but they'll have to make sacrifices somewhere.
200 or higher
Great summary. The whole idea around a new meta can really be explained like this: old vig cap=40, new cap=60. Old damage cap=60, new cap=80. This means you have 40 missing levels if you keep the soul level at 120. Giving the general audience 30 of those 40 levels back is completely reasonable, and I would bet that even duelists find 150 to be more friendly simply because of the wild amount of damage in this game due to +25 weapons and broken builds like bleed, frost, moonveil etc
@@joondori21 Idk lower levels still share the same issue damage wise if you go up against twinks
@@joondori21 I know you stated the obvious. There is no meta level yet I’m just pointing out that for the people who want a lower meta level, one shotting is still very prevalent
I really like your idea of duel meta and a broader community meta. Maybe even a 3rd even higher meta for pve and/or people who just want to have fun and mess around with all kinds of different weapons and magic.
This makes me happy cause I was gonna build up to somewhere around 140 to 150 and see what was up afterwards.
I have been doing PvP since DS 1, I thoroughly agree that 150 maybe 155 max is where the duelist meta should be. I am at 150 and I manage to get 60 in Strength and Faith, with 48 Vigor with 20 Mind for a bit of a spell caster/melee hybrid. I had to make choices on what damage I wanted and had to make sacrifices in other areas. I basically have no Endurance so I have to wear basically nothing, but that opened up using a couple talismans to keep my damage and damage mitigation appropriately.
Originally, the purpose of 120-125 was so that your build couldn't be an everyman like you said. If you want to be a hybrid you have to make sacrifices in other stats.
I'm also doing strength faith but at RL125. 40 strength for 60 when 2 handing and 50 faith. I get over 900ar on some weapons. I also have enough endurance to wear full radahn armour and hold the greatsword. 60 in faith AND strength is unnecessary because the damage is so high in this game anyway.
@@DM-hv5tp What are you using your Faith for? What is your health at? Why not just go to 80 Strength and bring up your Vigor?
@@philosophos4893 just realised im at 130 actually so slightly higher. Think health is at 55 with soreseal. Faith is so i can cast a few spells (useful in pve and pest threads great for finishing someone in pvp) and for fun weapons like malikeths black blade, envoy longhorn, giant braid whips etc
Glad you came out with this video I've been waiting for you to say it so everyone gets a general understanding that elden ring is not the same as dark souls. I loved ds pvp but elden ring has so much more to offer for build varieties.
Love your work Cowboy, you saved what was left of my sanity in the Cathedral in Anime Souls and I have followed you since :D I am parked at 150, with a DEX heavy archer/katana build. I reckon 150 can make a build that is great at any one thing, but not great at EVERY thing.
Well put my man.. it makes total sense
My personal guess is that there will be two meta levels, a 120-135 range to keep with the tradition of the game and a 150-170. The former is more competitive and the latter allows for the widest range of possible gear to use
I’m totally cool with that. I’m chilling at 80 rn and enjoying pvp, I’ve always preferred low level duals tho. Eventually I’ll min max a character for low level duals and level my main character to 150 to be able to use whatever I want, but I’m waiting on a balancing patch first, which is what I think needs to happen before we actually come to an agreement on a pvp meta. For now I’d say just play the game and have fun/experiment with different SL pvp to find out which level range you enjoy most.
A lot of ppl are running around between 200 - 300 at this point. I beat the game at 150 and beat it again at 230 cause the bosses drop wayyyy more runes on ng+ took me less than half the time to beat it on the second playthrough. And with how fast I still get invades, I think a lot of ppl are in the same boat
100% agree definitely need 2 metas. I mean i needed to get around level 140+ to beat malenia and my build is around that level wouldn’t be fun if i had to sacrifice something for duel pvp. So I’ll probably do community pvp for the 150
to be fair, need is an objective word. i was able to do malenia at 105 on a melee build.
@@c4veman ok
@@c4veman bleed build*
@@PhinneyFitness yup lol guaranteed. Also guaranteed he says its not🤣
@@c4veman to be fair I beat melania at around lvl70 and some other guy beat her at sl1 so meta should be sl1 then. Right?
In dark souls 2 the average build level for most people went up to 150ish due to adaptability being required on top of the previous numbers. All the builds i made were comfortable around that level without being too overpowered or starved. With the new softcaps in this game, that seems to be an appropriate area for most to stop as well.
You snapped bro. 100% agree with you on your stance about the meta.
For me as a pve guy that does the odd invasion i stopped at 200 cause that was when i had the build i really wanted. Also it made going into ng+5 and upward a bit more challenging. I dont understand stopping at 125. I hit 125 by the time i got to Mountaintop of the Giants and still had Haligtree and Mohgwyn Palace to go, i never grinded once either. 150 sounds comfy i wanted more stats for magic variaty so i stopped at 200. End of the day do whatever you want, if you want to hit max at 713 then go hard.
Thats exactly how I can tell you are a new player to the soul series
@@bigttv7199 iv played since dark souls 1 so not new at all. I just dont f**k with pvp for the most part. Cheesy builds and horrible hit rego. Your one of those try hard elitist's i see.
@@bigttv7199 go do ng+3 or 4 at 150 and see how you hold up. Also you are whats the issue, this isnt Dark Souls, this is Elden Ring. Different games mate, soft caps and stats are different, weapons scale mainly for hybrid builds. FromSoft clearly set out wanting people to build hybrids.
I’ve played these games continuously since dark souls. I’ve always had a lvl 60, 75, 100, 125 and 150 build. I’ll do the same in Elden ring. Problem solved. This player base in Elden Ring is very large at the moment. There will be plenty of action up to lvl 250 for quite some time. After 6-12 months casuals will die off then your lower level builds will get much more action.
You make so many better points. Well done 👏
Speaking of duel wield I'm using a build that uses dual warped axes they're pretty damn good
It seems to me that leveling up in the game is much slower than in dark souls 3. Given the various requirements for weapons or spells, it seems obvious to me that the player will go to level up above 120. In dark souls 3 at level 120, you can go ng +, but not in elden ring.
@@Chevalier_knight if do 100% of of game you will end up beyond lvl150 of course if you skip bosses and just focus only on story mode and nothing else you will end up with much lower level.
@@Chevalier_knight great for you, go have a cookie or smthng
I don't know the problem I'm seeing in pvp at 150 is the matches are more based around how well you can dodge more than ever and that's simply because getting hit once or twice at most kills you and that hasn't been the case in previous titles, at least not at the amount it is in Elden Ring. The overall damage you can put out is pretty absurd but from a PVE perspective it's in the right spot. I think in this installment it would be nice to see some form of damage segregation between PVE and PVP, or to make it even easier from a dev stand point just implement a passive defense buff when invading
That's just against Moonveil L2-spam.
finally a comment I can agree with
I’ve been able to one shot people since level 80. People just aren’t leveling their vigor.
Everything you said just makes so much sense. I think you're absolutely right.
Thanks for the enjoyable video man 😎👍
At level 138 with a +25 weapon you should be able to invade down to 125 and up too 171. And coop right around the same levels. There is a pvp calculator from ds3 that's being used for elden ring right now. 138 should be a perfect little spot for anyone unsure though.
Ds3 is nowhere near the same size as elden ring though..
Since this games way bigger than any game we’ve had there is so much to do before you slow down on levelling. 150 to 165 seems to be what most of the players are able to get at in their first play through. That should be the pvp meta aswell.
as the community progresses I think there will be a main character meta of around 280-320, full mixed caster-melee hybrids/tribrids, then 80, 120, 180 for early/late game builds. But the most fun is when you can switch between different weapons and styles and just spamming your 1 weapon will get boring when you have the option to throw crazy magic attacks too. I'm level 280 and while I've had more of a problem getting summoned for endgame bosses there are still people within my level range I can match with
I haven't really thought about the meta lvl yet cause i've been taking my time with the game but do we know how the summon calculator works?is it like DS3? Also i agree hitting 150 is easy,i have done limgrave,liurnia and i am almost done with caelid and i am at around lvl 75
Prisoner's Chain was a staple in DS3 for a lot of builds. Why aren't the Soreseals being considered? Radahn's is 20 free stats in all of the important categories, and then Scott goes on to mention you can get +10 to 2 stats just from your Physick.
Soreseal has a much more severe penalty to absorption, or damage negation as it is now known. Prisoner's Chain gave a 4% penalty to every damage absorption while giving you effectively 15 levels, Soreseal gives a massive 15% reduction in every damage negation whyile giving you 20 levels. This is nowhere near as powerful at face value. It is especially notable that vigor has a fairly hard cap at 60, so if you wanted to use a soreseal you would end your vigor leveling at 55. Level 55 + soreseal is going to be much squishier than 60 without a soreseal, especially if the lvl 60 guy runs Erdtree's Favor and Crimson Amber.
At low levels the Soreseal is still sick, if you are level 20 it will basically double your level which is huge, +100% level for -15% negation, but when you are sitting at 125 it will only increase your level by 16% while still giving -15% negation. If you level up even higher the returns get even worse. At high levels the soreseal seems like it has dubious value, and is clearly much worse than the old Prisoner's Chain.
@@TheKripox lol yeahhhh I noticed when I setup my current build based on soreseal at 120 and between that and the scorpion lightning talisman I had like 1-3 physical absorption immediately forcing me to respec.
I mean I've just hit level 113, just entered the Forbidden Lands, and I know there's still quite a lot of stuff left for me to do, so there's no way I'll only be at 125 by the end, I feel like 150 is good for ER considering the new stat caps etc
his point is that 150 isnt good for a pvp meta though and his example is some dudes will pump up a build and just be able to one shot anyone in duels. this is why he thinks it needs to be a duelist meta and pve community meta.
@@officialdabaws5228 but with the higher soft caps won't that not be possible at 150? Because everyone will be equally overpowered? I'm kinda new to souls pvp so I might be misunderstanding to be fair
@@SoFarSoGoodSoWhat14 sure everyone can be equally overpowered but what fun is it when the winner of a duel just comes down to who 1 shot who first?
which is the point he makes in this video. at 150 people can build a character that will 1 shot another 150 character. being able to 1 shot or be 1 shot isnt fun for anyone.
@@officialdabaws5228 but won't a level 150 character also have massively stacked HP?
I think going past 125 is a great idea, I have three characters currently. My level 250 is great for enjoying the pve content but does struggle to get invasions or duels. The other two I just made and have their builds planned out for 125 and 150. Can say that being level 125 isn’t to hard to get mixed stars for builds if you stick to strength and dex. Once you have to throw in faith or int for a weapon it can become difficult and being 150 helps with that flexibility. I might go for a 175 build at some point to test that level area, have high hopes
What is the highest level I can go and still play with friends? If my friends and I all stop at the same level will we be able to play together regardless or does a certain level stop coop play regardless?
I'd say 150-170 would be a good range for pvp/coop.
I still can get some invasion at level 200, it takes a bit longer but still have some invasion happening. 200 is actually fine imo, u have so much flexibility instead of just having 1 kind of builds
Back in dark souls 3 I had zero issues invading and being invaded at level 250 plus. I say have metas all the way up to max level. Let there be chaos
I think 210- 250 should be the hard cap , I'm already 209 and there shouldn't be a reason I would have to go and remake a character just to be active in the community. Pvp should be 170 -200 at most so builds dont get too ridiculous. Imo. But 250 would allow complete and utter freedom build wise hybrid or otherwise. Especially if it was to interact with the more ambiguous community that isn't focused solely on pvp.
@@vincentzhaiven4017 That’s too high even for Elden Ring. If you’re past 150 there’s no point to having a “build” anymore.
@@Haemr idk we'll see
I started a completely new save just so I can invade at 80+ but judging by community consensus it seems like any lvl 80 invaders are at a slight disadvantage. Should I just stick to lvl 80 on the save for invasions or go higher? (Probably really off topic since this video is referring to dueling and not invasions lal)
You’re 100% right I’ve been playing dark souls for a long time and I just got elden ring. It’s pvp itself it’s too different to have the meta be lower than 150. Being lower than that and trying to fight a double rapier and double everything, it’s was hard to pvp as a sorcerer. And in ds3 I was a decent sorcerer so usually I don’t have problems with it at all.
In my experience of this game, the lower my level in a duel or invasion, the better experience I have
That's actually very true, the lower level pvp is always much more fun since it isn't built around 1 shot attacks, its a fun back and forth, is why i'm going to have a lv30 or so build for earlier areas in the game, so i can get different pvp.
Best go for a higher level first time around since we explore and level up playing all of the game, then tailor a different charcter to be lower level, and another lower than that, and so on, then simply load the character you want to pvp on at the time, if 150-200 is full of insane tryhards then stick to a lower level pvp for fun. This is a game too we have to remember, and fun is at its heart.
Is how i'm gonna do it.
That's actually very true, the lower level pvp is always much more fun since it isn't built around 1 shot attacks, its a fun back and forth, is why i'm going to have a lv30 or so build for earlier areas in the game, so i can get different pvp.
Best go for a higher level first time around since we explore and level up playing all of the game, then tailor a different charcter to be lower level, and another lower than that, and so on, then simply load the character you want to pvp on at the time, if 150-200 is full of insane tryhards then stick to a lower level pvp for fun. This is a game too we have to remember, and fun is at its heart.
Is how i'm gonna do it.
Me as well, I think 150 is too high.
@@ULTIMATEGOOSE01 this it really sucks these games often require you to make a new character for PvP especially if you're a new player. Like I'm not just being elitist they should really let people just reroll to a lower level. Yet still its going to be a lot more fun if you do
Back in Demon Souls we used to eat grass and the level 120 was higher than you'd finish the game with. You'd have to play some of NG+ to get 120.
Quality builds couldn't hit both soft caps but also their scaling was better. Their damage was about equivalent at the 120 cap, where they would start out scaling after.
Having the level cap artificially at 120 is dumb and artificial, I think Elden Ring even in PvE encourages more than just pure dex or str.
I don't see why we are treating it as a Souls game. I think it's fine to have multiple soft caps.
Worded perfectly. Thank you.
Then what level should I stop at as a duelist? 125, 150, or something in between?
Unless you're min maxing a perfect build for tournament play go to 150
Honestly the duelist meta is ruining the game for me. At 125 I don't even know if I can beat the game. End game is literally tuned to level 130-150. The whole thing is so ridiculous and seriously shafts mages and hybrid builds. Ironically, its easier or me to 1 shot people at 125 than at 150.
Fancy seeing you here
If the meta is 125, everyone’s either gonna be a dex/str/ or status effect build. Cuz that’s the only shit you can comfortably hit the soft cap in. No casters nor hybrids. And the concept of there being “Havel mages” is ridiculous since a mage would want to hit the 80 soft cap and have a good amount of mind to actually cast. Yes, at 150 you can do “everything “ but all your shit is going to do significantly less damage than someone else who hit their soft.
You don't need mind at all, just watch chase play ice mage
@@civilez7060 just cause a guy can play X build at 120 with low mind doesnt mean you dont need mind. if i want to cast expensive spells without drinking a flask after each cast i need mind.
@@civilez7060 yeah, he's rocking a low lvl invasion build. it works in that context. but i'm talking about in a 1v1 setting. I've seen some pure caster builds and it looks like 125 works with them if they use no weapons. tho it does get much trickier to make hybrids, which i suppose makes some sense.
Completely agree cowboy. great content as always! Thank you for making these videos for us. Always fun and informative.
I just went with 120, just finished ng5 with it so it definitely works
I agree with 150 but I'm sticking to 125 until 150 becomes the universally agreed upon meta level because you can't level down in Elden Ring. Levels are permanent.
Agreed that's what I will probably do. I just reached 100 and contemplating
This is a bad way of thinking. A) 11 million people bought this game. There is no difficulty matching with people at a high level. B) if everyone thinks like you then no one will ever level up.
@@mkv2718 no one is stopping anyone to level up. we're simply discussing the appropriate level for those who want to play within the meta which is never being imposed to anyone. Plus, players who disregard the meta suggestion and decide to become toxic level 700 havel mages will not affect meta players in any way because they wouldn't be able to matchmake with the meta players. this is simply a discussion for those who want to do multiplayer/pvp in a well-balanced environment.
I was level 147 when I finished the game, and I'm sure I would be higher if I hadn't lost quite so many runes along the way. Imagine if a big DLC drops in the future, people might level even higher organically...
It will be funny when the drop the dlc and From recommends people be at level 180 or something and everyone freaks out. Kinda like when the Ringed City came out and they recommended people be at level 120 and a bunch of people freaked out that “I ended at level 60 and so did everyone on else and From should know that!!” Well, maybe they DO know better than Reddit or discord does. I think people forget that their favorite Forum isn’t the end all be all last say of the entire community.
Dude I am lvl 150 and I didn't farm runes at all. Just killed Malenia and have 450k runes wtf am I supposed to do with them if the second meta is at 150. I still have so many zones to explore. This meta is just dumb or should move to higher lvls.
@@Tallborn5 Calculated if you go lvl 175 with a +10 or +25 weapon, you can still coop and pvp against people at 150. I'm going for 175.
Dose the + value of weapons matter when invading? At evel 100 and got 2 maxed level weapons.
For those that want the best of both worlds at 140 you can be summoned by players at 119-166. You would be able to summon players between 116-164. Compare to 125 where you would still be able to be summoned by players at 150 anyways(though you would only be able to summon up to 147). Though I think the longer the game is around the higher the % of the playerbase at any one time will be duelists. If dedicated duelists do decide that 150 is too much even to be occasionally matched up against(they do want an 'even' duel afterall and have valid arguments against 150) they might set their meta lower to dodge 150 characters entirely.
How can I test if that’s true?