Could you do a video explaining the differences created via a loaded and inertia run. I see many dyno runs that last mere seconds and dont properly load the car up, surely this would create optimistic figures?
It can go either way depending on whether your estimated inertia is too high or too low. The amount of inertia varies between each vehicles individual drive train so impossible to be accurate. It's not just the inertia of the roller itself. By slowing a run down with a brake you can measure more of the power on a calibrated load cell. If you fix the rate of acceleration with load any inertia errors are constant throughout the runs no matter how power levels change. If you test in steady state - i.e. brake horse power, you remove all the inertia unknowns and get a full brake measurement on a calibrated load cell.
Maybe a silly question to the obvious but does the weight of the vehicle/alloys affect the results? My car was loaded with holiday stuff last time it was on a dyno.. Just thinking aloud.. Thanks
Weight of the vehicle no. But weight of the wheels can do as that's calculated as part of the drive trains rotational inertia. But that said the effect is minimal.
Take a look at evolve automotive!!! They dynod an e36 m3 and the rear wheels completely left the rollers, all there cars climb but they claim there correctly strapped, and the front wheels climbing compensates for the rears leaving the one roller on the rear, I'm not clued up but fuck me that's not right lol
Thank You !!!! I have been trying to explain to people that most tuners just lie about numbers, they are manipulated figures, cars not strapped down properly to increase figures, dyno calibration done wrong to inflate figures, calculated corrected power overly exaggerated, etc etc. I had mine dyno'd stock, on a VERY accurate dyno, and it made 336bhp, bang on factory figures. After a remap, it made 411bhp/576nm. That is a brilliant gain, and a REAL figure. If anyone in the East Midlands wants a GENUINE tuner, try AReeve Performance (BMW specialists) in Kings Lynn.
@@tunedbyrabbid Just to update, had a 200 cell cat, ITG air filter, and XHP3 g/box map done my M140i. It made 455bhp/634nm and I am really happy, and quite sure that is about the maximum from the mods. I have seen other cars on TH-cam dyno-ing at 485bhp with the same mods lol :-p
You think you can only make 411hp with just a remap and call that ‘realistic’ 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 That’s baby figures for stage 1. Can make up to 450bhp stage 1 with a good tune (unlike your rubbish 1). 7.9 100-200kph is a solid dragy time for a 450bhp m140i which is what I achieved stage 1. Stop going off gay dyno figures and dragy the car!
I've just had mine remapped at one of those companies you describe. I didn't notice any roller climb but on watching a video I took it became apparent the car was only on the rear rollers, the front wheels were stationary. I got "surprisingly" high results, now I know why.
Hi AMGMANIAC .. I'm assuming you have an AMG ??.... I also just had a remap on my AMG at very reputable company .. I was well pleased with the figs but after watching a few vids ... I'me very sus ... so is there anyway you can tell me which tuning place you had yr car done?..
@@tunedbyrabbid Really appreciate the gesture. I'm pretty sure the figures I was quoted are not possible on a 2013 OM642 engine without any supporting mods.
Great straight talking, love all your vids for straight technical opinion. I’ve just started learning mapping and use a local dyno dynamics roller setup so have a few queries and would be very grateful for your input: 1) where would you put the dyno air temperature sensor for most repeatable results on different days? My car is current NA but I’m midway through turboing it and want everything to be relative. Especially to look at difference of NA vs turbocharged. On previous NA runs I have put the temperature sensor in the air filter but not sure if this is actually introducing a fudge factor? Should I continue to do this to have relative figures? 2) bonnet up or bonnet down for final figure runs? My car currently runs a cone filter in a terrible location as I deleted the Maf and the current position was easy packaging for the interim solution. I did my final speed density map figures with bonnet up as I wanted the figures to represent the air filter in a good location as my final install will be in a good location and the original factory install had a decent air feed. 3) Ramp mode. Dyno dynamics suggest a different ramp mode for NA versus Turbocharged for ramp runs. I think that all ramp runs bring in a form of fudge factor: even on the best rolling roads and bench dynos. Steady state is possibly the only measure of actual steady torque at a point converted back to braked horsepower. I’ve witnessed high horsepower cars doing full power steady state runs at 250 rpm increments. It takes a lot of dyno, a lot of cooling to be reliable and puts a car under a hell of a strain including heat through the drivetrain. Due to the high heat/strain and because a high hp car is rarely in steady state; I’m happy to do ramp runs but I think all ramp run power figures have to be taken with a pinch of salt as they are based around acceleration and back calculating to estimated steady state. I do think that with care, ramp runs can be relative to each other so still give a good result for comparable tuning. This bit that gets me is changing ramp rates when I go NA to turbocharged and then comparing the figures. It seems it will be apples and oranges where as steady state would have been steady state = apples and apples. 4) Roller climb: I’ve heard a lot of theories: some are of the opinion that the front and rear rollers on one axle may be linked so the inertia does not change as the car still has to spin the same weight and the rollers still have the same aero drag so roller climb makes no difference. Not sure if dyno dynamics are linked?. Your test and experience shows the clear difference when a car climbs and this has been documented by others. The friction losses will definitely change. There is then the tyre slip factor which can be hard to determine. A large slip is obvious on the rollers but a lower amount of slip can be a grey area. Climbing the roller may create increased slip at a certain point and may lead to an acceleration spike as traction is gained; I think this can lead to a false peak reading as well. Subtle slip may be had to detect: hence I’m in total agreement about tying it down correctly onto both rollers to attempt to avoid grey areas. This is a point where steady state testing wins as slip is much easier to determine. 5) inertia config file. Can a user go in and simply change this to alter the power figures? A little scary if possible. Many thanks for your time in all videos to date. People like yourself gave me the confidence to attempt an ecu install and mapping by making information available.
Hi Martin I'll try answer all these for you. 1) I leave it on the red boom I never put it near a car, it only has the opportunity to be put too close to something and drastically change figures. If your correction factor is anymore than 1.03 or 0.97 the SAE standards would class this as an unreliable correction. 2) Bonnet down is what I use most the time with MAF cars with open filters as opening it can change the fueling drastically where as bonnet down matches dyno vs road fueling. However on a speed density car it won't make any real difference to how the car runs. 3) Yes ramp rates are recommended to be different for different cars, turbo cars generally want higher faster ramp rates. Ramp rates themselves just control the speed target of the dyno increasing by a specific amount every cycle the dyno goes through. If your figures are going up or down it means your total inertia is inaccurate. The total inertia should be the drive roller + idler roller + drive train inertia. The total of all 3 will compensate for any acceleration or deceleration during a run. If your figures are going up with a higher ramp rate your inertia is set too high, if your figures are going down your inertia is set to low. If you steady state the vehicle at a set speed and know what the steady state figures are then you can match your inertia so that the figures are correct. Or you can change the drive line inertia to match regardless of ramp rate. When you are in steady state acceleration is zero so inertia has zero affect. If you use the default its 100kg at roller radius squared. Shoot out modes typically use other amounts from 80-120KG depending on the drive line type. 4) Rollers are not linked, you can move the idler individually and separately from the drive roller. You can test this yourself turn them with your foot and see. You can see cars which are medium power levels which have enough torque to climb but insufficient power to keep themselves up all the way through the run and this will give wobbles to the curves or harsh spikes or dips when the idler contact is made or broken. On a powerful car like the BMW it can sit off for the entire run so no wobbles can be seen. The friction will change yes, but with roller climbing I would suggest that traction doesn't decrease much to allow for slippage as more weight is being pushed down onto the drive roller so on a good condition well knurled drive roller I'd expect the traction to be good enough. If you're getting wheel slip you'll find your top speed decreases as you add power. You can use traction strapping as well as retaining strapping to work around this. 5) Yes they can change the settings but any such change would show up on a shoot out graph under the total inertia. The inertias for the dynos are well known depending on whether its short roller, long roller or twin retarder.
@@tunedbyrabbid Excellent feedback and really appreciated. Sounds like I may want to return to the dyno to get a base run with the temperature sensor on the boom ahead of completing the turbo installation to have apples with apples as best as possible. 3) - So these different ramp rates are only to ensure the turbocharged car achieves expected boost levels where as a lower ramp rates are fine on NA as they don't have the same interaction of load against power/boost as no boost? Why not just run increase ramp rates for all cars? I'm guessing ramp rates may also affect the ability to climb the roller vs the car torque as the retarder and level of braking is what is being opposed. I've not seen the different power figures for different ramp rate figures on my own tests as not tried this but have seen it from other dyno results on turbocharged cars. I'm guessing if the inertia settings were correct then this was most likely just different boost being achieve altering the power figures. 4) If not linked then the inertia fudge for climbing is very clear! I've got the settings tables on my graphs for both days I was on the dyno. First day the car was standard. second day the car had a standalone ECU and have been changed from maf to map sensor. Please look at both and note if there is anything concerning. This is on a Mazda MX5 NB 6 speed: Day 1: Day 2: BP: 1009.9 BP: 1009.9 RH: 75 RH: 75 AT: 11 AT: 11 IT: 17 IT: 17 RR: 100 RR: 100 TN: 3.243 TN: 3.243 20200125:145256 20200125:145256 CK: 736 CK: 736 CF: SHOOT_4 CF: SHOOT_4 Tyre Pres.: 45 Tyre Pres.: 45 Gear: 4 Gear: 4 Tyre pressure is looks set high but same both days. Actual pressure was set at c.28psi cold - guess it will raise on a run but 45 looks high. Many thanks for any help provided.
@@martinrodger9565 3) The faster the ramp rate the more you will induce artificial lag to a turbo car where the engine revs around so freely before the turbo has a chance to spin up. However going too slow on the ramp rate will increase the time of the run and also cause the car to over heat quicker as the load is sustained longer. The lower the ramp rate the less inertia error and more detailed data you get during a longer run, however on higher power the more braking you apply the easier to is for the car to break traction or climb the roller. A slightly higher ramp rate is harder to climb or wheel spin, plus with higher power cars its also easier to keep them cooler. Shoot 4 and Shoot 4F both use identical inertia's and transmission losses etc, the only difference one is a 10kph/s and the other 15kph/s to allow for better traction and less heat stress on a turbo car. In theory running an NA car in either should give the same number assuming the total inertia is accurate for that vehicle. If they are different then the slower will always be closer to reality assuming no over heating or traction issues. The turbo should be the same assuming same boost and air temp, however you might find that shoot 4 spools earlier and 4f later if you dont properly preload the car on the dyno using ramp hold to build the base boost. I see this alot on diesels run in shoot 4f where people start at 1000rpm but the turbo doesn't get a chance to properly spool and looks awfully laggy and down on low end torque. A diesel I would hold until I get around a bar of boost before ramping up to remove the artificial lag. On a petrol I'd look to where I get somewhere around 0.5 bar hold and then ramp up from there. Depending where that spool point is will effect my holding RPM. 4) The two days there look identical but the correction factor calculated on those is 0.985 so knocking you down by 2.5% The tyre pressure and gear options are just for reference and has no effect on what the dyno does.
@@tunedbyrabbid Everything above is very helpful in understanding the dyno and will give me more confidence. Is there anywhere a dyno dynamics operator manual can be downloaded for someone like myself to review ahead of a mapping session? Many thanks for your time.
Mainline dynos read much lower than dyno dynamics or mustang or other brands. Ideally a hub dyno to really eliminate roller climb and other dodgy methods of increasing power. Hub will read higher, but a dyno is a tuning tool, so should be going back to the same operator to compare mods on the same dyno as a reference tool.
Indeed takes a lot of both deliberate or accidental variance out of the equation. Unfortunately Mainline despite it being probably one of the best systems in the world fails to take hold in europe as they do not give out estimated fly wheel figures which is a whole argument in itself and wheel figures are of no interested in the european market.
@@tunedbyrabbid Its strange - in Australia its the opposite. No one cares about what they claim at the engine, as without ripping the engine out and putting it on an engine dyno, any figure is at best a guess. We only care about whp (or kw at the wheels) as that's what you're actually putting to the ground (assuming aforementioned dyno techniques for higher numbers arent used). Even then, people will ask for timeslips at the drags, because terminal speeds are a fantastic indicator of true power as well (i.e. to see if it lines up with the dyno). We do have people chasing insane figures though. "High power" cars here are ones with over 1000kw at the wheels.....We joke over here that American horsepower is whatever figure they claim /3 to get a "real" figure..... ha ha. EDIT: For reference here, a stage 2 m140 will dyno about 290kw at the wheels. I know of a M140 with Pure800, HPFP running on 98 that dynos about 370kw at the hubs (hub dyno) but see people claiming figures over 600hp (or nearly 450kw) in other parts of the world with similar mods......
@@tunedbyrabbid Keep up the good work exposing some of the tricks people use to inflate power figures. I could never understand why people want to hear fake numbers.....it all comes out in the real world anyway either in 100-200 or drag slips.
Bootmod3 say a stage 1 is about 410 with their software and stage 2 430-440 depending on high flow down pipe or decat. Are these figures more realistic and would they be pretty much the same figured at an honest tuning company, if so it would make sense just to have bootmod3 so u can do everything yourself at home.
The figures are realistic yes, however the issue with self loading maps at home is how do you know its functioning correctly. Whether their be an issue with the spec vs the file or the car has an unknown fault. There are risk in doing so. Having a professional look over the car whether they write their own map or resell bootmod3 isn't what is important. What is important is that the car is running correctly. Point is if tuned correctly you get the same result, no one map can magically break the laws of physics and do better than someone elses map - provided both maps were designed correctly following a proper process they end up at the same result as the maximum results are dictated by physics. Sure you can manipulate a dyno figure, but you cannot manipulate a real world 1/4 time.
I've actually just had my car remapped at a very reputable place .. I'm now starting to really doubt the figs !! .... pls can someone mention the place or even just the area where this company is .. or even a link to these tuning places .. I really would like to know... especially now that I've just had remap
Have to deal with this nonsense all the time, "oh but so and so said it should make this much power" the reply is normally "We can make the graph say that if you want, I dont even need to load the car back up"
DMS is honestly a fucking joke, imagine thinking your maps are worth £1k+ when you allow cars to just pull on the rollers and lift for higher BHP figures
Hampshirephoto had a dyno at DMS doing exactly this!
Can't possibly comment.
The tuning community is lucky to have you shedding some light on the shite that goes on, well done!
It's sad but that's the reality of the industry. I believe the only way out is giving knowledge to everyone.
Some big eye opening stuff here mate
Any dyno related questions ask away I'll do my best to answer them for you. Don't be afraid to get technical.
Could you do a video explaining the differences created via a loaded and inertia run. I see many dyno runs that last mere seconds and dont properly load the car up, surely this would create optimistic figures?
It can go either way depending on whether your estimated inertia is too high or too low.
The amount of inertia varies between each vehicles individual drive train so impossible to be accurate. It's not just the inertia of the roller itself.
By slowing a run down with a brake you can measure more of the power on a calibrated load cell.
If you fix the rate of acceleration with load any inertia errors are constant throughout the runs no matter how power levels change.
If you test in steady state - i.e. brake horse power, you remove all the inertia unknowns and get a full brake measurement on a calibrated load cell.
Maybe a silly question to the obvious but does the weight of the vehicle/alloys affect the results? My car was loaded with holiday stuff last time it was on a dyno.. Just thinking aloud.. Thanks
Weight of the vehicle no.
But weight of the wheels can do as that's calculated as part of the drive trains rotational inertia.
But that said the effect is minimal.
Take a look at evolve automotive!!! They dynod an e36 m3 and the rear wheels completely left the rollers, all there cars climb but they claim there correctly strapped, and the front wheels climbing compensates for the rears leaving the one roller on the rear, I'm not clued up but fuck me that's not right lol
Great video mate and very informative
Glad you enjoyed it
Very interesting video,with plenty of food for thought.
Thankyou.
Indeed!
Thank You !!!!
I have been trying to explain to people that most tuners just lie about numbers, they are manipulated figures, cars not strapped down properly to increase figures, dyno calibration done wrong to inflate figures, calculated corrected power overly exaggerated, etc etc.
I had mine dyno'd stock, on a VERY accurate dyno, and it made 336bhp, bang on factory figures.
After a remap, it made 411bhp/576nm. That is a brilliant gain, and a REAL figure.
If anyone in the East Midlands wants a GENUINE tuner, try AReeve Performance (BMW specialists) in Kings Lynn.
Not a problem!
@@tunedbyrabbid Just to update, had a 200 cell cat, ITG air filter, and XHP3 g/box map done my M140i.
It made 455bhp/634nm and I am really happy, and quite sure that is about the maximum from the mods.
I have seen other cars on TH-cam dyno-ing at 485bhp with the same mods lol :-p
You think you can only make 411hp with just a remap and call that ‘realistic’ 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
That’s baby figures for stage 1.
Can make up to 450bhp stage 1 with a good tune (unlike your rubbish 1).
7.9 100-200kph is a solid dragy time for a 450bhp m140i which is what I achieved stage 1.
Stop going off gay dyno figures and dragy the car!
@@benhattersley6737 Yawn.
I trust the channel owner in this video, not some div who believes what a graph says.
@@DjNikGnashers DRAGY shows true performance, not dynos. You freak.
I've just had mine remapped at one of those companies you describe. I didn't notice any roller climb but on watching a video I took it became apparent the car was only on the rear rollers, the front wheels were stationary. I got "surprisingly" high results, now I know why.
Hi AMGMANIAC .. I'm assuming you have an AMG ??.... I also just had a remap on my AMG at very reputable company .. I was well pleased with the figs but after watching a few vids ... I'me very sus ... so is there anyway you can tell me which tuning place you had yr car done?..
Happy to power test it for you. The tune may well be fine, and probably will make a realistic figure.
@@tunedbyrabbid Really appreciate the gesture. I'm pretty sure the figures I was quoted are not possible on a 2013 OM642 engine without any supporting mods.
@@undfted It was a place in Southampton that has been mentioned by others.
@@AMGMANIAC I was fearing that.. yes, the place I got mine done .. also Southampton.. I've mentioned that in this in the same post with GAD. 😭😭
Great straight talking, love all your vids for straight technical opinion.
I’ve just started learning mapping and use a local dyno dynamics roller setup so have a few queries and would be very grateful for your input:
1) where would you put the dyno air temperature sensor for most repeatable results on different days? My car is current NA but I’m midway through turboing it and want everything to be relative. Especially to look at difference of NA vs turbocharged. On previous NA runs I have put the temperature sensor in the air filter but not sure if this is actually introducing a fudge factor? Should I continue to do this to have relative figures?
2) bonnet up or bonnet down for final figure runs? My car currently runs a cone filter in a terrible location as I deleted the Maf and the current position was easy packaging for the interim solution. I did my final speed density map figures with bonnet up as I wanted the figures to represent the air filter in a good location as my final install will be in a good location and the original factory install had a decent air feed.
3) Ramp mode. Dyno dynamics suggest a different ramp mode for NA versus Turbocharged for ramp runs. I think that all ramp runs bring in a form of fudge factor: even on the best rolling roads and bench dynos. Steady state is possibly the only measure of actual steady torque at a point converted back to braked horsepower. I’ve witnessed high horsepower cars doing full power steady state runs at 250 rpm increments. It takes a lot of dyno, a lot of cooling to be reliable and puts a car under a hell of a strain including heat through the drivetrain.
Due to the high heat/strain and because a high hp car is rarely in steady state; I’m happy to do ramp runs but I think all ramp run power figures have to be taken with a pinch of salt as they are based around acceleration and back calculating to estimated steady state. I do think that with care, ramp runs can be relative to each other so still give a good result for comparable tuning.
This bit that gets me is changing ramp rates when I go NA to turbocharged and then comparing the figures. It seems it will be apples and oranges where as steady state would have been steady state = apples and apples.
4) Roller climb: I’ve heard a lot of theories: some are of the opinion that the front and rear rollers on one axle may be linked so the inertia does not change as the car still has to spin the same weight and the rollers still have the same aero drag so roller climb makes no difference. Not sure if dyno dynamics are linked?.
Your test and experience shows the clear difference when a car climbs and this has been documented by others. The friction losses will definitely change. There is then the tyre slip factor which can be hard to determine. A large slip is obvious on the rollers but a lower amount of slip can be a grey area. Climbing the roller may create increased slip at a certain point and may lead to an acceleration spike as traction is gained; I think this can lead to a false peak reading as well. Subtle slip may be had to detect: hence I’m in total agreement about tying it down correctly onto both rollers to attempt to avoid grey areas.
This is a point where steady state testing wins as slip is much easier to determine.
5) inertia config file. Can a user go in and simply change this to alter the power figures? A little scary if possible.
Many thanks for your time in all videos to date. People like yourself gave me the confidence to attempt an ecu install and mapping by making information available.
Hi Martin
I'll try answer all these for you.
1) I leave it on the red boom I never put it near a car, it only has the opportunity to be put too close to something and drastically change figures. If your correction factor is anymore than 1.03 or 0.97 the SAE standards would class this as an unreliable correction.
2) Bonnet down is what I use most the time with MAF cars with open filters as opening it can change the fueling drastically where as bonnet down matches dyno vs road fueling. However on a speed density car it won't make any real difference to how the car runs.
3) Yes ramp rates are recommended to be different for different cars, turbo cars generally want higher faster ramp rates. Ramp rates themselves just control the speed target of the dyno increasing by a specific amount every cycle the dyno goes through.
If your figures are going up or down it means your total inertia is inaccurate. The total inertia should be the drive roller + idler roller + drive train inertia. The total of all 3 will compensate for any acceleration or deceleration during a run. If your figures are going up with a higher ramp rate your inertia is set too high, if your figures are going down your inertia is set to low.
If you steady state the vehicle at a set speed and know what the steady state figures are then you can match your inertia so that the figures are correct. Or you can change the drive line inertia to match regardless of ramp rate.
When you are in steady state acceleration is zero so inertia has zero affect.
If you use the default its 100kg at roller radius squared. Shoot out modes typically use other amounts from 80-120KG depending on the drive line type.
4) Rollers are not linked, you can move the idler individually and separately from the drive roller. You can test this yourself turn them with your foot and see.
You can see cars which are medium power levels which have enough torque to climb but insufficient power to keep themselves up all the way through the run and this will give wobbles to the curves or harsh spikes or dips when the idler contact is made or broken. On a powerful car like the BMW it can sit off for the entire run so no wobbles can be seen.
The friction will change yes, but with roller climbing I would suggest that traction doesn't decrease much to allow for slippage as more weight is being pushed down onto the drive roller so on a good condition well knurled drive roller I'd expect the traction to be good enough.
If you're getting wheel slip you'll find your top speed decreases as you add power. You can use traction strapping as well as retaining strapping to work around this.
5) Yes they can change the settings but any such change would show up on a shoot out graph under the total inertia. The inertias for the dynos are well known depending on whether its short roller, long roller or twin retarder.
@@tunedbyrabbid Excellent feedback and really appreciated. Sounds like I may want to return to the dyno to get a base run with the temperature sensor on the boom ahead of completing the turbo installation to have apples with apples as best as possible.
3) - So these different ramp rates are only to ensure the turbocharged car achieves expected boost levels where as a lower ramp rates are fine on NA as they don't have the same interaction of load against power/boost as no boost? Why not just run increase ramp rates for all cars? I'm guessing ramp rates may also affect the ability to climb the roller vs the car torque as the retarder and level of braking is what is being opposed.
I've not seen the different power figures for different ramp rate figures on my own tests as not tried this but have seen it from other dyno results on turbocharged cars. I'm guessing if the inertia settings were correct then this was most likely just different boost being achieve altering the power figures.
4) If not linked then the inertia fudge for climbing is very clear!
I've got the settings tables on my graphs for both days I was on the dyno. First day the car was standard. second day the car had a standalone ECU and have been changed from maf to map sensor. Please look at both and note if there is anything concerning. This is on a Mazda MX5 NB 6 speed:
Day 1: Day 2:
BP: 1009.9 BP: 1009.9
RH: 75 RH: 75
AT: 11 AT: 11
IT: 17 IT: 17
RR: 100 RR: 100
TN: 3.243 TN: 3.243
20200125:145256 20200125:145256
CK: 736 CK: 736
CF: SHOOT_4 CF: SHOOT_4
Tyre Pres.: 45 Tyre Pres.: 45
Gear: 4 Gear: 4
Tyre pressure is looks set high but same both days. Actual pressure was set at c.28psi cold - guess it will raise on a run but 45 looks high.
Many thanks for any help provided.
@@martinrodger9565
3) The faster the ramp rate the more you will induce artificial lag to a turbo car where the engine revs around so freely before the turbo has a chance to spin up. However going too slow on the ramp rate will increase the time of the run and also cause the car to over heat quicker as the load is sustained longer.
The lower the ramp rate the less inertia error and more detailed data you get during a longer run, however on higher power the more braking you apply the easier to is for the car to break traction or climb the roller. A slightly higher ramp rate is harder to climb or wheel spin, plus with higher power cars its also easier to keep them cooler.
Shoot 4 and Shoot 4F both use identical inertia's and transmission losses etc, the only difference one is a 10kph/s and the other 15kph/s to allow for better traction and less heat stress on a turbo car.
In theory running an NA car in either should give the same number assuming the total inertia is accurate for that vehicle. If they are different then the slower will always be closer to reality assuming no over heating or traction issues. The turbo should be the same assuming same boost and air temp, however you might find that shoot 4 spools earlier and 4f later if you dont properly preload the car on the dyno using ramp hold to build the base boost.
I see this alot on diesels run in shoot 4f where people start at 1000rpm but the turbo doesn't get a chance to properly spool and looks awfully laggy and down on low end torque.
A diesel I would hold until I get around a bar of boost before ramping up to remove the artificial lag. On a petrol I'd look to where I get somewhere around 0.5 bar hold and then ramp up from there. Depending where that spool point is will effect my holding RPM.
4)
The two days there look identical but the correction factor calculated on those is 0.985 so knocking you down by 2.5% The tyre pressure and gear options are just for reference and has no effect on what the dyno does.
@@tunedbyrabbid Everything above is very helpful in understanding the dyno and will give me more confidence.
Is there anywhere a dyno dynamics operator manual can be downloaded for someone like myself to review ahead of a mapping session?
Many thanks for your time.
Mainline dynos read much lower than dyno dynamics or mustang or other brands. Ideally a hub dyno to really eliminate roller climb and other dodgy methods of increasing power. Hub will read higher, but a dyno is a tuning tool, so should be going back to the same operator to compare mods on the same dyno as a reference tool.
Indeed takes a lot of both deliberate or accidental variance out of the equation. Unfortunately Mainline despite it being probably one of the best systems in the world fails to take hold in europe as they do not give out estimated fly wheel figures which is a whole argument in itself and wheel figures are of no interested in the european market.
@@tunedbyrabbid Its strange - in Australia its the opposite. No one cares about what they claim at the engine, as without ripping the engine out and putting it on an engine dyno, any figure is at best a guess. We only care about whp (or kw at the wheels) as that's what you're actually putting to the ground (assuming aforementioned dyno techniques for higher numbers arent used). Even then, people will ask for timeslips at the drags, because terminal speeds are a fantastic indicator of true power as well (i.e. to see if it lines up with the dyno). We do have people chasing insane figures though. "High power" cars here are ones with over 1000kw at the wheels.....We joke over here that American horsepower is whatever figure they claim /3 to get a "real" figure..... ha ha. EDIT: For reference here, a stage 2 m140 will dyno about 290kw at the wheels. I know of a M140 with Pure800, HPFP running on 98 that dynos about 370kw at the hubs (hub dyno) but see people claiming figures over 600hp (or nearly 450kw) in other parts of the world with similar mods......
In regards to US figures google the dynojet fudge factor will all become clear..
@@tunedbyrabbid Keep up the good work exposing some of the tricks people use to inflate power figures. I could never understand why people want to hear fake numbers.....it all comes out in the real world anyway either in 100-200 or drag slips.
It flatters their ego and makes the feel better.. truth doesn't
Bootmod3 say a stage 1 is about 410 with their software and stage 2 430-440 depending on high flow down pipe or decat. Are these figures more realistic and would they be pretty much the same figured at an honest tuning company, if so it would make sense just to have bootmod3 so u can do everything yourself at home.
The figures are realistic yes, however the issue with self loading maps at home is how do you know its functioning correctly.
Whether their be an issue with the spec vs the file or the car has an unknown fault. There are risk in doing so.
Having a professional look over the car whether they write their own map or resell bootmod3 isn't what is important.
What is important is that the car is running correctly.
Point is if tuned correctly you get the same result, no one map can magically break the laws of physics and do better than someone elses map - provided both maps were designed correctly following a proper process they end up at the same result as the maximum results are dictated by physics.
Sure you can manipulate a dyno figure, but you cannot manipulate a real world 1/4 time.
I've actually just had my car remapped at a very reputable place .. I'm now starting to really doubt the figs !! .... pls can someone mention the place or even just the area where this company is .. or even a link to these tuning places .. I really would like to know... especially now that I've just had remap
Bring it in we'll power test it properly.
@@tunedbyrabbid yea.. am seriously thinking about that.. and also maybe get a proper map from you? .. I've emailed you re this .. thanks.
hp/nm is just sales talk. But dragy 100-200 times don't lie.
Indeed, real world performance is king.
But using a dyno properly will help you obtain real world performance, instead of fudging it for marketing.
Have to deal with this nonsense all the time, "oh but so and so said it should make this much power" the reply is normally "We can make the graph say that if you want, I dont even need to load the car back up"
Indeed! By explaining this, it also shows people we are straight talking as we can't cheat if we tell you how its done.
100-200 kph times dont lie
Exactly so many times our real world performance matches or exceeds "more powerful" cars.
Not naming names *cough* DMS *cough*
Couldn't possibly comment..
I know exactly who your talking about ;)
🤔
Anyway I can find out??... I just had car remapped to I want to know if I was cheated. Thxs :)
@@undfted who tuned your car
@@GadtuningCoUk DMS
@@undfted I rest my case
DMS is honestly a fucking joke, imagine thinking your maps are worth £1k+ when you allow cars to just pull on the rollers and lift for higher BHP figures
You have to be able to perform magic to justify the price.
interesting
Indeed!