This is the joke God was waiting for. Out of all these billions, you're the only one who deserves to go to heaven. The purpose of this universe is complete. Commence apocalypse.
I thoroughly enjoy the dynamic that these two have in these conversations. As a Christian, I've always admired Alex a great deal in that he's unwavering in his criticisms and observations of Christianity and theism, but that he truly listens to the other side of the conversation and is never interested in misrepresenting anything.
It has always struck me as odd, that on the assumption that Christianity is supposedly the one true religion, how only approximately one third of the world's population follow it, after 2000 years.
Alex is incompetent. He claims to have studied theology and doesn’t even know the basics of the bible; for crying out loud. He interviews scholars with a much higher education without a basic understanding of those people’s expertise. He gives the impression of a primary school kid asking a professor basic questions.
This is a summary of the points made by each participant and their evaluation: - Michael Jones: - He argues that God does not send people to hell, but people choose to go there by rejecting God's love and grace¹. - He defines hell as a state of separation from God, not a place of literal fire and torture¹. - He claims that God is just and merciful, and that he desires the salvation of all people, but he respects their free will¹. - He supports a Christian and biblical approach to understanding and explaining the doctrine of hell¹. - He criticizes Alex O'Connor's atheism, his misunderstanding of Christianity, and his use of emotional and moral arguments¹. - **Evaluation**: Jones presents a coherent and plausible account of his position, and defends it with theological and philosophical arguments. He also challenges O'Connor's position with relevant objections and counterexamples. However, he may be accused of being inconsistent or arbitrary in his interpretation of the Bible, and of ignoring some of the problems and paradoxes of the doctrine of hell. - Alex O'Connor: - He argues that God does send people to hell, and that this is incompatible with his justice and mercy². - He defines hell as a place of eternal punishment and suffering, as described in the Bible and the Christian tradition². - He claims that God is unjust and cruel, and that he condemns people to hell for arbitrary and unfair reasons, such as their beliefs or lack thereof². - He supports an atheistic and rational approach to understanding and explaining the natural world². - He criticizes Michael Jones's theism, his misunderstanding of atheism, and his use of circular and fallacious arguments². - **Evaluation**: O'Connor presents a clear and challenging account of his position, and defends it with logical and factual arguments. He also challenges Jones's position with relevant objections and counterexamples. However, he may be accused of being too simplistic or biased in his representation of Christianity, and of dismissing some of the possible evidence and arguments for theism.
@@XJRSuper no I’ve watched Mike before. he’s cool. He just has that expression a lot during debates and deep conversations. I think it’s a concentration thing.
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
@@DefenestrateYourself God through the Holy Spirit has shown me several things relating to the afterlife with the purpose of convincing people like yourself. Stuff like Heaven and Hell, Angels, ,evil Spirits, the Lord Jesus (not worthy at all), a miracle happened to me that saved my life (thank you God) & so much more. I am more than happy to give further details.
The nature of this debate was so civil. Thank you for the opportunity to hear complex, thought out arguments instead of tactics and sarcasm. I love IPs channel and it was very cool to hear someone else’s thought process as well.
I love how someone could listen to the talk and conclude what the above commenter does. It's like that bicycle meme where they put a stick in the spokes of their wheel then blame someone else for them falling@@LeadedNevada
As a Christian, this is a rather interesting topic. Good to know both sides of the aisle continue to have young minds who are open to listening and understanding perspectives from both sides.
I too find it unreasonable to believe in things with no good evidence, like something from nothing, order from chaos, life from non- life, consciousness from non- consciousness, etc.
@@Illycrium "I too find it unreasonable to believe in things with no good evidence, like something from nothing" Cite me ANY peer reviewed paper that purposes this. "order from chaos" What do you mean? If you are talking about our universe, it is by no means order. It is extremely chaotic. We see entire star systems that perished billions of years ago in huge cataclysmic events. " life from non- life" What do you mean here? Everything is made of the same things. Atoms , carbon etc. Define life. "consciousness from non- consciousness," This literally happens to every human and animal ...
@@Longtack55 How can you prove that anything exists outside of your own mind? Isn’t it irrational to believe in something without direct evidence or verification?
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
I've loved both of these channels for a long time and I'm really happy to see this conversation It almost feels like every guest you get is one I needed more than the last!
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
This is like a breath of fresh air. Thank you both for speaking carefully and kindly and for truly trying to listen and respond thoughtfully. I recently watched a so called debate between an atheistic and Christian scientist that ended up as shouting and slurring match. It thoroughly upset me.
Why did it upset you - these are very emotive and salient conversations, they are bound to get heated and difficult often, it's human nature even if it's unsightly to see
@@Incandescence555 That's a good question. It shouldn't really touch me like that, I suppose. I'm a Christian and I think I was very disappointed in the behavior displayed by the Christian. He got overemotional and loud and disrespectful. At the same time it never makes me feel good to see anyone (Christian or atheist) say and do nasty things to others, and the atheist was just out for character assassination. Hurling insults (even at the audience). You won't be wrong if you call me sensitive. Lol
@@marcfischer114 I did not come across of that expression from James Tour but then I did not watch 100% of all his content online and there are many. Can you refer to which conversation you are talking about? I know there was recent debate between James Tour and Dave and it got charged and Dave called James pathological liar. I did not watch the debate yet myself but I saw lot of people comment like that. If you could point me to specific min in the video I would greatly appreciate it. Normally I dont like people being bully but if someone is being bully to you then I do not object responding accordingly.
The bible says there is a lake of fire. At the end of the 1000 yr reign of Christ on earth,at the end of this age even hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. There are 2 resurrections of the dead. The first is for the righteous for eternal life and the second for the unrighteous for eternal death. Both classes of people will receive physical glorified bodies to receive their reward. The same body Jesus recieved from God.
I have never heard of the idea that hell was temporary. As a Catholic, the whole “refinement for heaven” seemed a lot more like purgatory than hell doctrine. I’m not a Catholic anymore, but I really liked this argument for Christianity (and hell) presented here. I consider myself agnostic and (through absolutely nothing but wishful thinking) would like to believe that the afterlife is just a place where everyone becomes their best selves automatically. This depiction of hell seems much more in line with that thinking and I very much appreciated it.
Why would "God" create us, insist in a book we have to find him and worship him, but remain hidden from us? Who would ever insist the most important thing, to save you from eternal hell, was to know God, but God hides! Christians say God isn't hiding, they mention someone they know who was cured, sunsets, smiles, thoughts they have in their heads, and provide NO evidence at all.
Wow, I never thought I'd see this debate in my life. As an InspiringPhilosophy watcher but also a CosmicSkeptic watcher due to his vegan content (as a vegan myself), this is awesome to see, and a pleasant surprise indeed provided it is a problem I have always had as a Christian - the doctrine and subsequent justfiication of Eternal Hell. I simply cannot believe an omnibenevolent God would allow us to experience eternal suffering, even if we choose it, so hopefully this debate enlightens me to some degree. Thanks guys!
It helps that the idea of hell is unclear even among clergy and church fathers, however I believe it is enough to have faith in Gods love. What if hell is spending eternity as a disembodied spirit lamenting the lost opportunities to love and worse the times one knowingly hurt others? A ghost no longer is tempted by fleshly desires like food or sex or fatigue so maybe they are left with regret. Maybe that is what purgatory is, forgiving yourself for failing to love. Lord only knows.
@@SydneyCarton2085 Any time someone posits an eternal punishment for finite crimes is not thinking clearly. God tells us to use our brains (come and reason) when considering evidence. The evidence is clear: Jesus is love. Jesus is God. Therefore, God is love. Nobody is going to be punished eternally for crimes committed over the course of, at most, 100 years. The words of the Bible have been distorted by Satan and evil men to sow fear and doubt in the minds and hearts of human beings (just like he did in the Garden of Eden when deceiving our first parents). But our job is to dispel these lies: we are to be stronghold demolishers, destroying the lies about God's nature and character. And the worst lie ever foisted upon gullible men is that a "God of love" will torture His children forever in fire. It's a gross mischaracterization of how God will handle selfishness (sin) in unrepentant sinners.
@@cklesterwell I do believe that God torturing us by sending us to hell is wrong. The Bible says that not only will some people will go to hell, but everyone deserves to go to hell. Thats the whole point of Jesus's sacrifice. The bible clearly says that our sin nature is an anathema to the purity of God and only through the sacrifice of his son and infinite grace can we be pure enough to be in his presence. To think unrepentant sinners will go to heaven is to say Jesus's sacrifice is unnecessary and that is heracy. God is love, but he is also justice, and without being under the tent of his sons sacrifice hell being the furthest most distant place from God is the only just place for humanity to go.
@@tman040496tb It seems pretty clear that most (if not all) human beings will have a Gehenna experience. The question becomes, what is the Gehenna experience? If you listen to the father of lies, he will tell you that Gehenna is a place of eternal burning of human beings for the sins they committed over the course of at most 100 years. This idea makes God out to be worse than Hitler. Thankfully, it cannot be reasonably supported from scripture. (Anybody can twist any scripture to make it say anything when taken out of context. Keep everything in context, and everything remains neat and tidy.) But if you watch Jesus and read the Bible, you will conclude that God is love, and a God of love would never do something so unjust, especially to those He loves so deeply. God says in Jeremiah 19:5: "They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!" God is not for burning anybody. > The bible clearly says that our sin nature is an anathema to the purity of God and only through the sacrifice of his son and infinite grace can we be pure enough to be in his presence. If this is true, how was Jesus in the presence of human beings? How was God present with Israel through their desert experience? Unrepentant sinners will not go to heaven. Nobody is suggesting they will. I used to say "God is love, but he is also justice," as well. Do some research as to what God's justice in the Bible means. What is God's wrath? It is not like human wrath. Regardless, is it just to torture a mortal, finite being in burning agony for eternity for sins committed over a finite time? No, it is not. So, no, your concept of hell is not "justice" in any sense of the word. Arbitrary vengeance? Sure. Psychotic retaliation? Yeah. Justice? No.
@@cklester for better or worse, the fear of eternal hellfire has undoubtedly deterred some from committing atrocities like murder and grape. Lord knows even though for the most part I am averse to the idea of hurting others there have been times when the fear of Gods punishment has kept me from doing so. Maybe it is providence that this healthy fear exists, and it is a healthy fear. At worst it results in some scrupulosity that can turn into serenity knowing that true repentance in reconciliation retroactively atones for sins. For example, many crimes are avoided in society because of legal consequences and since we are born into sin many are inclined to crime. Beyond the insatiable hole left by disordered appetites of the flesh, there really is no incentive for crime anyways. A person has at least two motives to avoid sin, moving away from hell/punishment AND towards heaven/love/reconciliation. Hell is non-Heaven and Heaven is non-hell.
The Christian gentleman that keeps arguing the Bible preaches hell is quite mistaken. It doesn’t preach the modern version of hell at all. As a Christian I’ve spent much time reading scripture in the Greek snd Hebrew. There is NO WORD HELL anywhere in the Bible. There’s Sheol, hades, Gehenna and Tartarus. Only the latter is remotely close to modern hell but even that’s off and more a Greek concept than biblical. (And it’s only there once and applied to angels.) Then there’s the issue that the books that speak of hell ARE NOT to us today. Jesus himself says he came to preach to ISRAEL, so we can’t apply his ministry to them to us. Revelation was written to 7 specific churches about what THEY were about to undergo THAT GENERATION and soon. Finally, the scripture itself says things like, god isn’t forever angry, he won’t be away from people forever, all are made alive, etc etc. That point blank is contrary to some eternal torture chamber. (And never mind the fact that in genesis god blocked immortality so they WOULDN’T spend an eternity in a fallen state. Immortality of the soul is a Greek philosophy, not a Christian one. So god addressed the he’ll issue from the start and Jesus fixed the dead issue.) The gentleman arguing against hell is consistently logical and even biblical, even if he’s not a Christian. I enjoyed his thinking process. Great debate.
@@grayhalf1854ultimately all morality comes from the spirit of God. But, until we learn to hear his voice and leading, it mostly comes from our culture and upbringing and the laws our lands have established.
You need the Spirit. That which is spiritual is spiritually discerned. Lean not unto thine own understanding but study to show thyself approved. Not even the scholars and academics are always right.
Because you don't. The vast majority of the world believe in some sort of god or creator its obvious to them, you athiests are a small minority. But you can't as an athiest craft deep and complex theological and philosophical questions then aspect the thiest to give you simple answers. You ask deep questions you get deep answers. And the best answers come from scholars.
I am a Christian, and I enjoy listening to Alex O'Connor. A very intelligent and resoanble atheirst. I have been listening to Michael Jones for about a year now, and I really enjoy him a lot. As a believer, I learn tons from him! Good job both!
Best philosophers/debaters of their respective beliefs. Though William Lane Craig has some sick arguments too. He just needs to nail the TH-cam shorts like Michael 🤣
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
@@areyoumad8224 sorry your comment is unintelligible. Maybe try again with better wording? Maybe you could be more clear. Are you trying to respond to me or what? I’m happy to talk to you but maybe try and form a sentence that makes sense.
What I love the MOST of all these debate videos. It is that both leave rooms for the other to speak, untill both are finished with there points. Its shamefully rare in a debate, that we get to have this kind of calm debates. Such a shame in my mind. Its one of the biggest reason I must force myself, to watch sometimes politic debates on tv etc etc. (Specially under a election year) This comes from a person who loves debates, from small to bigger tophics overall. No wonder most people hate most "debates", if grown adults act like children while debating. Not even just so called "adults" but but grown people who runs/wants to run the bloody country :).
What we've seen was a conversation, or discussion, not a debate. Main trouble with debates is that participants don't listen to each other with the goal of to try understand what the other is talking about but mainly listen to find something they can provide a counterargument for (often fallacious).
@@BlacksmithTWD In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
Great conversation. I am convinced that this is way better, and actually gives more intellectual food for thought, than a fully moderated and heated debate. There is a great focus on the actual substance, instead of trying to quote unquote win.
Well most are culturally Christian like myself and took it all for granted until I had to start researching why I am Christian. I am only as bad as society allows and without Gods grace I would slip into acting as such. Where do we get our morals?
@@SydneyCarton2085 we definetely don’t get our morals from God, unless of course God changes his morals from time to time. I don’t want to follow a God that can’t make up his mind
To be fair, that applies to literally everything in life. If you know nothing about nutrition, you are likely to hold some very misinformed views, where an expert in nutrition will have very nuanced takes. I am yet to find a field in which the popular view is anywhere near adequate.
@@atanas-nikolov Humans like seeing things as black or white. However, if we can let go of our ego and realize that we might be wrong (perhaps not wrong, simply misaligned) only then can we truly hope to gain some truth from this world. You cannot possibly hope to better understand a system if you refuse to hear its case and become more educated on its functions and qualities.
It continues to Astonish me as to how any reasonably intelligent person can talk about , believe in and claim the existence of God (s) that stem from bronze / iron age shaman invented myths , fables and stories based on ignorant superstitious notions of causes of the origins of mysterious phenomenon that our sciences have explained and solved but that we continue to believe in without any evidence whatsoever !
I've always said, if god exists and is perfectly just, then I have nothing to fear. I've come to my atheism honestly and with the evidence and arguments made available to me.
When you look at what religious people do and what they say, who could seriously fault someone for drawing the conclusion that it was all a contrived vehicle for craven asshole humans to exert control over other people via what is fundamentally a threat.
The evidence made available to you includes countless historical documents, geographical proof, and personal accounts from people - including former atheists and agnostics, who have no reason to lie - sharing their personal encounters with you. It's good that you're able to accept that God is just and that your choice to actively reject the evidence provided to you is completely willful.
@@samuelsprings7245 People are either convinced or they're not. It's not a choice. I spend a great deal of time studying the bible and reading scholarship on the bible and the history of christianity and I've yet to find anything convincing.
@@samuelsprings7245 have you considered all the historical documents, geographical proof, and personal accounts from people of ALL religions? That's the only way to really be sure, right? Especially considering there are older religions than Christianity, Hinduism for example, which therefore must have a longer history with more documents, more personal accounts having been recorded etc. I'm not disagreeing with you that it's important to try and take in all the evidence available for such an important topic, but it's difficult enough (if not impossible) to genuinely do this critically and rigorously for one religion unless you become a scholar and dedicate your life to it, let alone to do it for all the major religions, which is the only way to REALLY be sure
Appreciate the discussion. Thought provoking questions. You did a great job being inquisitive without being antagonistic, mocking, condescending, etc. I would be interested in hearing where the guest came up with his justifications on certain points within scripture (for example people having an option beyond death to get out of hell or being 'burned' via sanctification).
Micheal's ideas of Christianity are utterly foreign to the Christianity the majority of people I grew up with were raised with. He's speaking very much for himself here.
And he's most likely more learned than virtually all if not all those Christians. We look at what the scripture most likely says not what the wider populous thinks and interprets it.
@@SerendipitousProvidence There are various interpretations of Christian doctrine and he seems to know them all. But it also seems he mixes and matches them as needed. His opinions don’t seem to fall squarely into any particular shared Christian denomination except perhaps ‘simple Christianity’. In this way, he can shop around for ‘escape hatches’ and ‘gotchas’ so to speak. It’s almost like a buffet of doctrines. He’s certainly smarter than I am, so I could be wrong.
Merely because these views are not espoused by the Christian culture you're familiar with it in no way follows that these views are not considered, or have not been considered throughout the history of the Church.
The dishonesty of Jones is unparalleled both thoughtful men but Alex is actually humble and honest and Jones would give his last breath to defend a myth that is unbelievable in the 21st century. Grow up kid.
Alex, I suggest you get David Bentley Hart on the podcast at some point. He’s an Eastern Orthodox Christian who makes an arguably compelling case for Christian Universalism, an idea seemingly foreign to mainline denominations that is nonetheless worth exploring.
He's notably disrespectful, self-conceited in his own ideas and haughtily dismissive of everybody who does not agree with him, particularly on the issue of universalism. A very unpleasant individual with a very wrongheaded, even contradictory idea, who oozes contempt through every pore when referring to dissenters. He is also remarkably smart, with a prodigious command of the English language (at which he most distinctly excels when hurling invectives carefully crafted to inflict the highest possible degree of humiliation on his adversaries). In other words, a veritable theistic version of a hybrid between Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins. 😂
He’s certainly conceited, yes, even at his own admission, but to call his universalist stance “wrongheaded” seems a bit much when weighing it against your typical evangelical, traditionalist Christian defenses of eternal perdition. A comparing him to Dawkins and Hitchens was just an added insult to his intelligence, lol
I believe universalism to be self-evident from a proper reading of The Bible and it to me is the God that I believe in. All are loved unconditionally and all are ultimately redeemed.
Alex, this is what I'm gathering as a newer Christian since 2.12.22. I was an addict (porn/booze/drugs/prescription pills) and clinically depressed/anxiety/insomnia all three I needed to take medication for and after losing my mind, no sleep and body shutting down something inside me told me to repent. It was much harder than I thought because I always thought I'm a good person. Well, I felt the absence of everything good which is what God is and it was TERRIFIING!! I repented and felt forgiven. I can only describe it as a feeling of over an amount of joy/love/forgiveness that hit me so hard that to this day I don't take any medication, substances or porn 100% sobor since. The crazy thing is I don't just not do them but I truly don't want to do them. I then later read the entire bible since I never really read it before and all those things I felt aligned perfectly. I then found out that this story isn't that unusual (Just look up Porn star, gangsters, killers, drug dealer, alcoholics, addict's testimonies who now follow Jesus and are completely transformed) I then know why so many Christians want to share these same exact feeling because I do to. I then started watching Atheist TH-camrs, (GM skeptic, rationality rules, You, Paulogia) to see their angle and I honestly can't see what their endgame is, except to willingly turn themselves and others from God as some sort of profession. Especially when you see what the unsung Christians have done to pave the way we live today (Colleges, Modern Science, homeless and food shelters, orphanages and countless charities) .My point is once you feel that presence leave compared to the sweetness of his forgiveness you realize God does love you so much. I spent my life turning from him and I just needed to simply turn around so-to-speak. The same as I and everyone, like atheist, can't choose to turn away. Its like a Christian can say 'I felt the presence of God therefor I know God exist' but a atheist can't say "I never felt the presence of God therefore I know he doesn't exist' as you can't prove something exist by not experiencing it. Google says there are about 100,000,000 people convert to Christianity a year, that's over 270,000 a day. And most are because they claim they have had a similar experience. another point that you're forgetting Alex is God wants you to simply love him and other people EVEN YOUR ENEMIES. I am so confused when atheist don't put this together. Even if you didn't believe I don't see what the harm is to abide these simple rules or even one rule LOVE or LOVE SELFLESSLY. Your analogy about the dad 'making your son do what he wants or you will make him sleep out in the rain' is missing the whole love part of the story, whether or not these hitchens/ dawkins fellas convince your made up son the love part gets misinterpreted.
Right, what the loving father is asking is not only not unreasonable, but good for the child. Sin is an unsustainable way to live and atheists cannot deny this. I do not fuss over the details of heaven and hell but worry more about what I can do here and now and the only way I can love fully is from the frame of reference that God forgives me and loves me otherwise I act out of pride at best any "good deed" would simply be done to please a self image.
I had a very similar experience as you, and I agree with everything you say. I agree so much that I took the time to reply, and I hate commenting with a passion. Stay strong in the faith, brother who I’ve never met. Praise God for your testimony! It’s frustrating because I understand exactly what you mean, but I can’t describe it with words. That’s how God is. I wouldn’t believe it myself if I didn’t experience it firsthand. Just as I can never describe how I know beyond a doubt that God is true, some people will never believe in God even if God himself came down to talk to them. They’ll rationalize it as a hallucination, or them dreaming, or some other x reason. That’s why when people ask for proof of God, I always just want to ask them, what kind of proof do you want? What will it take for you to be 100% convinced that God is real, and that He is as He describes Himself (good, loving, just, holy, etc)? Because there will always be a reason to doubt. Faith only comes from God, and apart from Him no one would believe and be saved.
If 100 million people per year caught the christianity mind virus, in 80 years, ALL people would be christian. Yet christianity has been spreading for at least 1,663 years. The truth is that the % of christians in the World plummets every year. Today, less than 70% of America is christian. 200 years ago, America was around 99% christian. Europe is only 64% and was 72% in 2012. After 1663 years, the World in now down to 31.7% christian. Religions can only spread by the sword, because they have no merits. This is the only reason why islam still continues spreading. Christianity used to be mandatory in most countries when it started spreading from the Middle East. Christians conquered many countries, and force converted everyone and indoctrinated their children. Christianity spread by torture, rape, and genocide, and not because it was true. Today, christianity is a trillion dollar industry.
When he's describing the flat earthers' psychology: "They're fighting the evil empire." "They're the ones who know the truth." Sounds like early Christian mentality.🤔
Great conversation! My only gripe is that we didn't get to hear much of Alex's stand on these topics as most of it is rather implied through his questions.
@@SteveVanWinkle except it only turned to an circle jerking. Think very few Christian thought Micheal did an bad job at answering. Look at his channel comments. That people that follow this channel think Michael did an bad job is not surprising, only living up to the expected bias.
Alex's interview strategy is to ask the kinds of questions that could reveal or highlight inconsistencies in someone's belief. While there are moments where his personal beliefs shine through, such as the non-existence of free will, he still provides evidence for why a person might have not had agency over particular aspects of their life. I do like the interview format because the guest can always explain their view and have the opportunity to defend it, if it is defendable.
I think the drug addict analogy paints a profoundly tragic picture of hell. The people in there would want to get out. They'd be fully aware of the truth and willing to accept it... but still unable to.
I only went in for 5 mins 40 seconds and Michael already disappoints. Hell is a real place, with fire, without the ability to escape and you get a new body all the time to keep on receiving pain. Of course you can go on a visit, but then you weren’t judged to be there yet. All people going there know they belong there.
The idea is that there is an omnipotent being, and he chooses to spend his time punishing and rewarding humans severely strains credulity. Talk about a waste of talent! Only in a religious context would anyone even think about believing such a thing.
I don't see why pride alone would be a determining factor as to whether you go to hell or not in the first place. If one is a kind person at heart, offering help and love to those around them, but at the same time doesn't wish to prostrate themselves for all eternity. Why must such a person be condemned to hell?
I myself might not have so much of a problem with serving an all loving God its just that the Abrahamic God doesnt seem to fit the bill for a loving or good creator deity now the Flying Spaghetti Monster on the other hand he is a pretty nice guy he boiled for our sins and created tasty ravioli for the whole human race also he has beer volcanoes beat that Christians
When I was about 7 years old the local vicar came to our school to tell us about Christianity, how good God was and that we could all live forever. It had a big effect on me and I told other people about it. I thought everything was going to be alright! The week after the another person told us about catholicism, which I found a bit frightening. Representatives came to tell us about other religions and I realised quickly that it was all just BS. They couldn't all be right with their very different stories. I also learned that grown-ups are sometimes wrong.
The fact that they couldn't all be right doesn't mean that there isn't one that is. The same way you can test people's math and even though you'll get many wrong answers, there is a correct one.
My takeaway, an hour later: To resolve the obvious tension between the notion of an all-loving god and the idea of (nearly?) eternal torment in Hell, you just have to find increasingly abstract and flowery ways to say, "Yeah, but the people in Hell deserve it."
You're forgetting the all good and just part of God's nature. Because if He is all just then what the hell would be just about letting someone who spent their lives serving the poor spend eternity in the same place with Hitler? Seriously. Can someone explain that idea? Because hell seems far more reasonable from that perspective.
Thoroughly enjoyed this. I've followed IP for years, don't think I've ever seen anything from Alex, but love listening to him speak. Very thoughtful & respectful arguments from both sides. 💜
For those interested in a very good critique of annihilationism, there is a good essay by Eastern Orthodox theologian Sergius Bulgakov called “The Problem of ‘Conditional Immortality.’” It was recently translated in a collection called The Sophiology of Death. Bulgakov takes not only a theological stance but a philosophical one as well to critique the implications of either God annihilating persons or persons annihilating themselves. As someone who is a universalist, Bulgakov also puts forward a sound argument for the salvation of all, including Satan and the demons. While I appreciate Michael’s stance against an eternal hell, I think he runs into the same logical and theological issues with God’s omnipotence and maximum love when he posits that God would allow his own creatures to annihilate themselves. The free will of a person is only free if it chooses the Good in which it was made for, so any person to reject the Good to the point of metaphysical suicide doesn’t indicate free will, but insanity. An insanity in which he is a slave to in a way which would implicate God as his maker. Does the image of God reside in a creature like that? If we don’t earn salvation in earthly life, then any life after this would have the same asymmetrical relationship in which God comes after the person in love to save them. But if he desires for the salvation of all (which is theosis by the way) but even one is annihilated, then I’m what sense has he not failed?
The x-tian believer etc. has a deep seated subconscious Fear of the ending of their ego's= the conditioned christianized ego cannot/willnot face the very real possibility that it will face extinction like any other mortal being and die...
How do you reconcile (libertarian) free will with hard universalism? What's to stop me or someone else from sinning if all ultimately go to heaven? Btw, I'm familiar with Bulgakov and I have a copy of Sophiology of Death.
@@ObsidianTeen simple i don’t believe in libertarian free will and “hard” universalism is a misnomer. Free will is not the ability to pick between options as in a gnomic will but to be that which you were made to be. We were made to desire God, so true freedom will always be to desire God and nothing else.
@@JAWesquire373, surely you believe in libertarian free will in order to account for the first evil choice ever made. Otherwise God or God's decree necessitated the first evil choice. Hard universalism is not a misnomer; it's the view that all will be saved necessarily. On soft universalism all are saved contingently. Hard universalism requires that of necessity, a person stops making evil choices. Hard universalists have to bite the bullet that at least sometimes, an evil person can choose/will good without an alternative. But then why was there the option of evil to begin with, and how, apart from stability in good (Mary, Jesus, Saints in heaven), can one be necessitated to will good?
Can you really be a nice guy with his kind of views?. He seems okey i guess, but also seem to think people deserve to go to hell for very silly things.
@@johanahonen8627in this SPECIFIC case I think yes because he is really defending a sort of non-Hell Hell that is much more metaphorical and also exclusively thought up by more modern Christian apologetics. He mentioned CS Lewis almost as much as he quoted the Bible. I honestly like his position a lot and think it should be more wide spread among Christians but also think it's pretty disingenuous to argue something that for almost 2000 years would have been seen as Hersey and wishful thinking by the leaders and scholars of his religion.
@@johanahonen8627 It's his belief, I can see past that. Strong beliefs hinder the ability to think clearly and logically. Everyone has cognitive barriers. I pay more attention to the way he talks, I can detach that from the details of his beliefs. The way he talks gives me an image of someone who is really convinced that what he believes is the truth. I can't read minds, but I know from my own experience that I have often spoken out about something in the past, when in essence I didn't really know what I was saying exactly. It is a fact that as humans we can be trapped in emotion and feelings, and therefore say strange and/or illogical things and at the same time be very convinced that we are right. His beliefs may not be directly related to his personality and true nature, in my experience he has fallen prey to indoctrination.
@@brandwijkggChristians could say the exact same things about atheists. There are millions of former atheists and agnostics - myself included - as well as people from different religions, who have converted to Christianity because they had personal encounters with Jesus Christ. Eventually, there needs to be accountability taken on the side of the atheist. Either millions of people have lied and are still lying for some reason, they're all clinically insane (unless they believe exactly what you believe), or Jesus Christ is real. You have to pick one of those three options.
@@brandwijkggConsidering Michael was an atheist and converted to Christianity in his early adult hood through a round about way (studying Egyptology and ancient religions, his atheist friends said Jesus was basically Horus, knowing this was false, it lead him to research Christianity) I don't think the "indoctrination" or cradle Christian thing can really work.
This whole conversation felt like listening to a Marvel movie fan telling you his original script of how they would make Phase 4. It may sound entertaining at first but after 15mint you want to check out because is just one person's self-indulgence.
"If Hitchens did get the correct information and he still had that mentality, that is who hell is for." OK, now, let's put aside the fact he's basically saying if you think wrong, you burn in hell possibly forever regardless of how you conducted your life. Surely, "correct information" is whatever information is required to burn away any shadow of doubt in your soul. If not, what is "correct information"? Whatever converts the most people? Whatever converts a person god likes? Whatever converts a person Michael approves of? This whole argument seems as frivolous as the bible itself. If god himself can't convert me, he doesn't seem all that great. In that case, god's political gulag may not be as scary either.
I have two questions: 1. If God can explain everything and so certainly convince you after your death, why would he wait until you live through this life and not explain everything before? 2. Why would God create people who he will not be able to convince and who will reject him? Why not only create those who will eventually accept him?
@@daviddeida Your previous comment suggests that your understanding of the topic is very shallow, which I attribute to the fact that you probably did not listen to the discussion. If you have a meaningful answer taking into account what was said in the discussion I'm more than curious to see that.
It's schlock, but it's better than D level fanfic like, "Once upon a time, everything was a dark and stormy singularity without any context or purpose. The End."
@@johannpopper1493 OMG I thought you were reading the bibliolatry at first, because seriously the "jealously patient random wrath" god/gott/gaut/goth "with face hidden in dark clouds" is rather just "existing there without any context or purpose" with a way uglier and less testable story than science presents.
@@letsomethingshine You're right. God is alone, and for God alone, atheism is true. If the atheist model is true, then you are God, or an illusory part of the thing. Would you make other people? Treat them well? Get angry sometimes? What would you do with all the Hitlers?
It’s completely irrelevant what some person speculates, like when he quotes these theologians. All that matters is what the Bible actually says, everything else is just wishful thinking or fanfiction.
I love how near the beginning he fights back against Alex saying that people can’t choose what compels them but then later says he wishes Universalism was true but doesn’t necessarily believe it
Sure, but a person may not always choose what they believe based on personal feelings. A person may choose what compels them because they really do think it's most in agreement with truth.
@@hyreonkthat’s exactly what many atheists do with belief in god… yet I see so many believers claiming that atheists “choose” to disbelieve god. This is one of the biggest points Michael seemed to miss in this conversation… if atheists aren’t choosing not to believe, then how is it justified to send them to hell?
@@Vulcan_GamingYT right, as Michael explained before, and in this video, he believes in repentance after death - so nonresistent nontheists will likely end up on the right side of eternity. Even if it takes them a bit of catching up (purgatory). I don't agree, but I only know myself. I deserve hell. I now live in repentance. Thank God for the gospel. If you're anything like me - and you are the same species, so you probably are - then Jesus died for your sins, too. I'd be happy to discuss any objections you may have.
@@hyreonkwhat about the chinese man that lived two thousand years before jesus did? does he deserve hell forever despite not having the same opportunities as you to repent?
@@tommytwo-times9053 The Catholic church affirms with the early Christian writer Justin Martyr that "We have been taught that Christ is the First-born of God, and we have suggested above that He is the logos of whom every race of men and women were partakers. And they who lived with the logos are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and people like them." In short: Jesus is the Word. Some non-Christians came to acknowledge the existence and dedicate their life to the Word. In a real sense, they are Christians. They not only had the same opportunity to repent - they took it.
Great conversation! Although this version of events sound better at first, it still has a lot of very strange issues to my mind. God is apparently happy for almost everyone to have the wrong information about himself and what exactly a "sin" is until after they are dead, including most Christians. Then at that point you are faced with a hugely painful event to get into heaven, based on breaking rules you didn’t even properly know about.
God could very possibly not be happy with us having mere knowledge of his existence. To wrestle with the knowledge, to pray and meditate over passages you read, brings about a deeper participatory knowledge. Misinformation should not affect our faith if we see counter arguments. MAGA, flat earthers and antivaxxers are hardened by prior conviction, but found studies or sources that confirm their biases. Romans 1:1o-20 states that God is known through observation, in 20, his ontological attributes can be clearly perceived.
He says that a rapist who seeks forgiveness on his deathbed from Christ doesn't get forgiven because he still has to have an accounting with God. But I'm certain he believes that anyone who confesses Christ as the son of God and genuinely repent their sins to Christ passes that accounting. So it's simply a semantics game-a rapist who confesses on his deathbed gets into heaven
This is great, because I sort of discovered you two at the same time. Cool journey introducing myself first to Michaels various video essays on the famous arguments, then looking Alex's sort of rebuttals or doubts. I think that still Leibnitz ' argument is the most solid :)
@@bruhdabones It's similar to the first mover argument, and kalam is like an extension into it. Every thing can be explained by an event before it, so everything that exists has some kind of cause or causer. Leibnitz argues that universe began to exist, so something must be beyond it that caused it to exist, some kind of transcendental force. Look up Cosmological argument, im not good at wording it.
@@justaway6901 i consider whatever greater than the universe out of comprehension to possess some God qualities, and I believe that kind of thing doesn't need a causer for it is the ultimate beginning. If there was something before God, it wouldn't be considered a god, perhaps a minor god.
The fallacy of Michael Jones is that he believes that people have free will and can make free choices. He believes that people could have done/choosen otherwise in their live. It’s a misconception…
The issue of a literal Hell consisting of “eternal conscious suffering” was the lynch pin in the deconstruction of my almost forty years as an evangelical fundamentalist. Michael’s view is not even consistent with the majority of Christians today or in history. Just another theological belief that is not universal….along with every other doctrinal issue in Christianity that no two people can agree upon. Love ya Alex.
@@Mister_A_149 why have that responsibility at all? according to theists, god decided that that responsibility was neccesary in the first place and then gave himself it. needing to fulfill a responsibility that you created doesn't excuse you from creating the responsibility in the first place, nor does it excuse fulfilling the responsibility in any way you see fit
I must say. I like this guy Michael Jones. His pattern of thinking and way of arguing reminds me a bit of the antique philosopher Plotinus, where the main issue of judging a persons Life and moral is the direction the soul is aligned. Towards the good and perfect or towards the worldly and profane. Also Kants Good Will as what he thinks should be the main source of moral decisions. Great guys with big hearts. We all dont know how God will decide, nor what will happen after death. But I do hope noone will ever harm them. Thx
Alex as usual you offer a more practical analysis of this saga we've found ourselves in... You actually asked a question I've been asking others for a while now: "where is God in all this?" Not in those exact words of course but pretty close. And although I'm not an atheist or Christian I very much enjoy your work. Keep it up. Hope to have an interaction with you someday.
That is a question even believers ask (Psalms is riddled with songs inquiring about God’s presence). It’s something very human, to ask for a deity’s presence and where the deity is. We could be approaching the end times, but that is conjecture and we ultimately do not know. God in his omniscience does know what the best time would be. Our foreknowledge is still relatively limited, because of the fog of decisions we cannot reasonably factor in.
@@eswn1816 Remember the Bereans, who scrutinized Paul's teachings and compared them against scripture. Earnestly seeking truth will lead you to God. Jesus himself said "I am the way, the truth, and the life." Rejoice at Alex's questioning, if he does so earnestly, it will lead him to truth.
@@eswn1816yeah man, totally uncool to question the bible. We are commanded to obey and trust in Jesus. How dare we use the intellect that we were cursed with by Adam and eve eating from that stupid tree of knowlwdge.
@@jimijenkins2548 Re-read my comment. It's not about his examining and comparing scriptures... It's about his questioning the judgement of God. BIG difference! 🙏
Why don't just god explain all these things clearly, by himslef, that every humans can fully understand... instead of letting people to misrepresent him and create more confusion....
@@DrownedinDesigner I was raised catholic in Spain and I never met anyone who described hell or heaven anywhere close on what he did. His position defies most of the history of Christian dogma
@ My initial thought was, "He has tried to address a discrepancy he (or someone else) identified in the different passages, and has created a version (not that he is the first to do so) that includes enough from the original material (the stuff that doesn't seem to contradict), that it allows him to still pursue the religion carefully, but still not antagonistically." I'm glad he, at least here, has done this. The typical depiction of a Christian and their views on hell are worrisome, and not well thought out.
@ That's not true, though. Anecdotal examples aren't data. We can see what religious philosophers have been saying for thousands of years. What a pastor in Spain said in your youth doesn't equate to "most of the history of Christian dogma."
@ While not exact, THERE WERE early greek church fathers that held a view similar to Michael, because of how the duration of hell is described in the original greek, which referred moreso as a long age of correction thaN eternal torment. Though this is still often disputed today, so I'm not sure.
It not about pure punishment. It’s about the fundamental ‘distance’ from God that comes with sinning. God is the source of eternal life and separation is eternal death.
I would say there's a lot of unbiblical things he believes. From a Christian perspective, it's like a pseudoscientist being interviewed. Not quite standard.
@PeaceMaker The guy we are commenting about makes up his own version of Christianity where Hell isn't eternal and you can get to heaven without accepting Christ ...I'm not talking about Universalism, I'm talking about this video. I'm not a believer but I have read the Bible and this guy isn't representing the Bible or mainstream Christianity.
@PeaceMaker I can't remember how he worded it but he did say it...and he explicitly said he believes Hell needn't be forever, again, I haven't even mentioned universalism that has nothing to do with my point.
No, because even if you suffered through crucifixion, you will never be able to take on the mental toll that Jesus did: taking all of the sin of the world. I don’t mean to spread negativity, just a thought 🙏
@DraperReacts but surely the sin of the world is the sin of every person who has lived and will live. It is a lot of people but not infinite. Burning in hell or Eternity is literally maximum pain for infinity. I would pick maximum pain for one evening then maximum pain for eternity. But anyway, this is all nonsense
@trapd00rspiderthere is no evidence that hell is finite in the scripture. You and the speaker in this video are inventing stuff to make yourselves feel better.
it's similar to these old viral Facebook memes: "if you don't share this post something bad will happen to you, etc" No wonder Christianity spread so fast.
I'd love to hear a part 2 with either Glenn Peoples of Right Reason or Chris Date of Rethinking Hell! I think they would give very different answers that would be closer to my own views of course haha
As an Orthodox Christian this was a very interesting conversation! Michael is quite close to the Orthodox conception of hell but is unfortunately dragged down by being committed to a legal framework of sin, and connected to that, penal substitutionary atonement.
@@samanthaannfuchsgruber It's been a couple of months since I've watched the video so this may not be entirely accurate, but Michael describing hell more as a state or experience rather than a literal place, and that the punishment of hell is more internal rather than externally imposed is quite close to the Orthodox view. However, in the Orthodox Church we would describe salvation primarily as theosis or deification. So our salvation from sin and death in Christ is through becoming like Christ, becoming deified. Michael seems like he holds to some form of penal substitutionary atonement however which teaches that we are essentially saved from God's justice through Christ taking the punishment due to us, and so salvation becomes not only transactional, but meaningless in terms of sin and death. And so because of this Micheal doesn't seem to fully be able to connect the atonement with the eschatological reality. Hope that makes some sense! I would probably have to rewatch the video to give specifics.
@@curtisben79 Thank you so much for your help!!! That is very helpful. I definitely would say I believe in "substitutionary atonement" and conduct myself in real life as though everyone is going to heaven (assuming that everyone will find God). However, that is how I conduct myself. I know God suffered for us and for that reason, some souls are in hell. It is not an empty or imaginary place.
@@samanthaannfuchsgruber this is not the only view within Orthodoxy, the issue is complex (as you know) and the eastern churches have always put a bit more emphasis on mystery, that is in the end, we cannot know for certain, in this life at least. sin is usually thought of as an illness and Christ the physician.
@@sillythewanderer4221 thank you for your reply. I really appreciate this. I fell in love with the scholastic nature of Catholicism (Christ reached me through my mind) but of course, this was primarily done through my heart thanks to the Holy Spirit. I deeply love the Orthodoxy emphasis on mysticism. Sometimes, getting too caught up in the endless dance of rationality and apologetics can be negative for spiritual growth. We are not merely here to think. We are here from Love Himself to love other people. That is the highest goal, and it is beautiful. I am now inspired to deepen my spiritual journey. God has been far too kind to me and I do not wish to let that go.
God is all knowing and nothing happens without his will. People choose to go to hell because they refuse to obey gods command. See how these two things cannot coexist at the same time?
One of the most baffling things about Christians/apologists is their ability to confidently list the characteristics of God and heaven like, "God is all loving, God is perfectly just, God doesn't send you to hell, you must be sanctified before entering heaven, the fire of hell is within....etc". The question I keep asking myself is how? How do you know all of this? How did you obtain all this information that seems impossible to obtain unless you went to heaven/hell and met God? I was very surprised when jones said "I don't know", when asked whether or not sinners are given better information before going to hell. Like... really? You spent 10 minutes painting a vivid picture of hell and heaven and God, and describing the exact process by which God operates before condemning a person to hell, but you can't tell me if God will correct my misinformation before I go to hell? That's the specific point at which you knowledge is limited? And he tries to act humble like "I don't know, nobody knows" - dude everything that you just said about God and hell and heaven is also stuff that you couldn't possibly know. Really at the end of the day, God's silence on this topic is deafening. I'm teird of listening to guys like Jones while God keeps quiet. Everything, literally everything that jones has said could be wrong and God would just sit back and keep quiet.
Literally my exact thoughts while listening to him. I feel like this was an argument Jones could only lose, because at best he could demonstrate his views of hell aren't an absolutely contradictory mess (which I'm not sure he even completely managed). But even in that case, I just listen to him and wonder why in the world I would believe him vs Hindus or Muslims or Catholics or any other person making confident claims about what happens after death on nothing more than claims God happened to reveal the truth to them and/or those they quote.
Based on your comment it seems like you have to personally observe something in order for it to be true. I understand it’s not convincing enough for you but he is basing it off what the Bible says about God’s character and Hell. Notice how Alex doesn’t press him on this because your question is very obviously answered. Even Sam Harris arrogant enough to say God doesn’t exist, you can be 99% sure but in the same way Jone is just being intellectually honest. I don’t understand the litany of comments just like this, why listen to the discussion in the first place, because if he said I know for sure you’d be upset cuz “how could he know” but he says idk and then it’s “how could he possibly believe this if he doesn’t know”.
@@mikesingh6099 it’s a fruitless pursuit to discuss specific details about an entity whose very existence you can have no direct knowledge of. These conversations are at best mental masturbation, but more often are simply a window into the psyche of the one who claims to be a believer.
He sends people to hell based upon their own moral decisions but atheists want to reject autonomy and accountability when it suits them. Atheists: why should I go to jail for killing that man Me: did you desire to do it?, did you use the weapon, did you have the ability to walk away? Atheist: yes Me: Then you chose to do the crime that sends you to jail
@@ReformedR Well, well, well. Tell us in more detail how hell is connected with responsibility. And also about the purpose of imprisonment and the purpose of being sent to hell, well, since you made such an analogy.
He says he isn't convinced you're stuck in hell. His bible says angels were thrown out of heaven, so if you sin in heaven, you can be thrown out. "We still need to be sanctified." What does that mean? So going through life isn't enough, the game is still on in heaven! Some say you can't sin in heaven, but then, you'd be without choice or freedom. It's a constant circle of illogic.
The church’s history of belief is that angels were created with full understanding of who God is, what His plans are for angels and humans, and what their role is in that system. So when they choose to reject Him and His plan, they have all the possible information. So they leave that system, and are removed for Heaven because that will be where humans ultimately reside with more power than the angels in the end. Humans however are born and live on Earth with much less understanding and ability to grasp the entire picture. As we come to know God, and experience life in the spiritual realm after death, then we approach the same level of knowledge that the angels have. And if we choose to accept God and Jesus and their plan for the afterlife in eternity in Heaven with them and the others in that realm, then we won’t have a need or desire to sin (ie move against the plan and the system in Heaven) so we won’t be “kicked out” because there won’t be additional new information that will make us change our decision at that point. “Sanctification” is the process of being willing and able to desire living in accordance with that eternal plan once we have “all the information “ and have dealt with/resolved/been healed from all our human flaws/life traumas/sins/etc that are related to having lived our lives as humans on Earth. Or that’s how I understand the way these ideas have been explored in church history. Now that we have so many denominations that have split over different ideas it’s possible to find some that no longer agree with these earlier ideas.
@@selahr. A big part of my conversion to Christianity was finding out that all my clever objections had been answered, usually more than a millennium ago
It seems so difficult and challenging for a human being in this world; for someone simply trying to do what's right. All of this can make a person scared to just be alive lest one do the wrong thing or believe the wrong thing.
I struggled with your channel through the vegan phase. May be my own hypocrisy being highlighted to me, but goodness gracious I’m glad to be back on your content. Some of my favourite content anywhere. I don’t find much that scratches that philosophical, intellectual itch. Plus I’m jealous that you and Chris Williams are friends, I’d love to end up on an after dinner table with you pair 👍🏻 Thank you Alex 😊
@@uninspired3583 in their respective spheres of influence, they are. Most people who follow atheist channels know Alex, and most who follow Christian content know Michael. They've both been parts of debates and interviews with other very influential thought leaders as well.
@@ryanthomas7119 Hi, um... Jesus saved my life. He is amazing and perfect and holy. Don't tell people their own life story. It's equivalent to someone saying, "I was lost in a desert with no water and my friend brought me water so I lived." and you saying, "I hate to tell you this, but no one brought you water." So how are we alive? How do we have joy? How do we suddenly know what true love is? How do we worship and dance and serve others? Because Jesus touched us! He saved, changed, and loved us!
@@jadehart2257 Ive managed to resist making a joke about the sentence Jesus touched us due to my amazing self-restraint anyway in the desert analogy there is no other explanation for it other than well water Im not so sure that is the case with people having religious or mystical experiences its at least not obvious to everyone that that is the case
Why didn't Michael come right out and say that he believes in free will when Alex began to talk about people not being at fault? That would have made the part about people sending themselves to hell a lot shorter. Because ultimately, Michael's view has to be that despite all influencing factors, we still have the capacity to decide freely enough where we want to spend the afterlife.
at 36:58 Alex forces Jones to say that he "doesn't know and no one does" in his response. Well done Alex. This is Jones' only honest answer of the day and one in which more christians should follow. Single highlight though because after that he goes back to knowing everything that god wants once again...
"Given the right information" could be very simplistic. We have our own biases and our own way of perceiving things. 10 different people given the same info can still come out with 10 different perceptions.
This is a simplistic view of what "right information" encompasses Part of "right information" would address the misapprehensions that lead to our biases and tell us proper ways to manage the biases
The primary problem I see with every faith-based system is that each is just as likely to be true as all of the others because all of them require belief prior to demonstrating even just the weakest evidence of itself. If there really was an all-powerful god, and if an eternity of hell were a real threat, claiming to know the mind and desires of such a being could be exactly the thing that it might find offensive. The only logical position is to take no position. Humans are arrogant enough without going around believing we might know what the creator of the universe might be thinking.
Not so. I am a Christian because I think that there are good philosophical arguments for supposing that God is the type of god found in the Abrahamic religions, and that there is enough historical evidence to make Jesus' ministry historical and his resurrection more likely than not
@@a.i.l1074 Ok. Just curious 😊 Why did you start believing? I have never heard a good philosophical argument, and those that exist can be equally well applied to other religions. And historical evidence for jesus, sure. But we have better evidence for Mohammed, and the quran doesnt contain nearly as many errors and contradictions as the bible, so why not be a muslim?
@@TheAndnor difficult question, it was a long process. Two things helped: 1. I used to engage with these questions like "let's debunk this ridiculous superstition", but then I noticed that genuinely intelligent people believed it. You say none of the arguments are any good, I've got to disagree: when you spend a lot of time with them and really get into the details, atheism is not clearly the most rational position. 2. There are some half-way positions which were more palatable to hold at first. Like religious experiences are real phenomena, God is real in the way that morality and love are, religion has some benefits or beauty. Slippery slope We probably have more evidence about the minutiae of Mohammed's life, but his main miraculous claims are the night journey and the revelation of the Quran. Those do not impress me. There are more plausible explanations for the rise of Islam, like the Arabs adapting the faith of the Jews and Christians they conquered. The central miracle of Christianity is the resurrection, which had hundreds of witnesses and was falsifiable at the time the Gospels were written. I haven't heard a theory of what happened during and after Jesus' ministry that better explains the historical data.
michael Jones is the king of making stuff up to make his religious belief seem less obviously incoherent, and ending up with something even more incoherent. as an example, literally the first assertion he makes - that 'hell is metaphorical since we lose our physical bodies, and how would fire hurt you' - completely undermines his belief that the material world is non existent in reality and that the physical is the product of the mental. If the 'mental' is all that exists, then whatever he asserts is actually being represented by what we call the physical realm is just as metaphorical as the supposed Hell he imagines. So in one foul swoop he's contradicted his entire worldview, just to pretend that the Biblical Hell is not what it seems to be.
Bibliolatry is bibliolatry, regardless of which canon, version, or edition the pagan-mind descendant chooses. Will it be the one from King James of England? Will it be the American Catholic Bishiops' NABRE version? The Greek Orthodox Septuagint, that includes apocrypha? The Ethiopian canon with many more apocrypha than others? And there are many more.
@@chrisgray7737 yeah, there was a couple of years where all the American apologists quoted Lewis - Americans are easily impressed by an English accent. They don't tend to rely on him these days since atheists weren't impressed.
@@bengreen171 I have noticed that even firsthand with a friend of mine that is pastor. He said to me “CS Lewis was right, huh?” I replied “Bertrand Russell I thought was right”
Around 23:02 alex says, people being compelled, to desire what they desire and ultimately it may not be their fault. But the issue is, people don't automatically change just because they got the right information, if that were the case then, we'd be a bunch of if then else statements walking around. We get the information and we change accordingly, that rarely happens, what happens more than likely is to stay the same even if presented with life changing information. I'm not a Christian, just a little push back to his argument.
Wow, just wow, the guy just blew my mind, it's such a beautiful description of hell that I want to go there. It hit me in the right way if you do a lot of mental gimnastics to see it from a mental health point of view. If a person is traumatised, depressed, anxious or addicted it feels like hell, but going to therapy and work though your trauma is also scary and sometimes painful, sometimes the trauma is so big you just cannot heal, you cannot escape, you certainly cannot do it on your own and the idea of Jesus like someone who would try to pull you out of your trauma and your trauma is incredibly healing.
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That was one Hell of a conversation.
Lol you took the low hanging fruit. Off to hell you go
This is the joke God was waiting for. Out of all these billions, you're the only one who deserves to go to heaven. The purpose of this universe is complete. Commence apocalypse.
🤣😂!
Ba dum tss
@@johannpopper1493brilliant 😂!
I thoroughly enjoy the dynamic that these two have in these conversations. As a Christian, I've always admired Alex a great deal in that he's unwavering in his criticisms and observations of Christianity and theism, but that he truly listens to the other side of the conversation and is never interested in misrepresenting anything.
Fellow Christian here. Could not agree more!! 💖🙏🏻✨💖 Much love to Alex and Michael. 💖🙏🏻✨💖
It has always struck me as odd, that on the assumption that Christianity is supposedly the one true religion, how only approximately one third of the world's population follow it, after 2000 years.
How are you still a Christian after watching these types of videos??
Alex is incompetent. He claims to have studied theology and doesn’t even know the basics of the bible; for crying out loud.
He interviews scholars with a much higher education without a basic understanding of those people’s expertise.
He gives the impression of a primary school kid asking a professor basic questions.
@@DA-yd2nyHow's your channel/podcast doing?
Then they did the fusion dance and became Alex Jones
Haha
To say nothing of Michael O'Connor...
@@RanchElder I would if I knew who that was
They mated, didn’t they?
@@brotherben4357 fusion dance does sound like another way to say the boned
This is a summary of the points made by each participant and their evaluation:
- Michael Jones:
- He argues that God does not send people to hell, but people choose to go there by rejecting God's love and grace¹.
- He defines hell as a state of separation from God, not a place of literal fire and torture¹.
- He claims that God is just and merciful, and that he desires the salvation of all people, but he respects their free will¹.
- He supports a Christian and biblical approach to understanding and explaining the doctrine of hell¹.
- He criticizes Alex O'Connor's atheism, his misunderstanding of Christianity, and his use of emotional and moral arguments¹.
- **Evaluation**: Jones presents a coherent and plausible account of his position, and defends it with theological and philosophical arguments. He also challenges O'Connor's position with relevant objections and counterexamples. However, he may be accused of being inconsistent or arbitrary in his interpretation of the Bible, and of ignoring some of the problems and paradoxes of the doctrine of hell.
- Alex O'Connor:
- He argues that God does send people to hell, and that this is incompatible with his justice and mercy².
- He defines hell as a place of eternal punishment and suffering, as described in the Bible and the Christian tradition².
- He claims that God is unjust and cruel, and that he condemns people to hell for arbitrary and unfair reasons, such as their beliefs or lack thereof².
- He supports an atheistic and rational approach to understanding and explaining the natural world².
- He criticizes Michael Jones's theism, his misunderstanding of atheism, and his use of circular and fallacious arguments².
- **Evaluation**: O'Connor presents a clear and challenging account of his position, and defends it with logical and factual arguments. He also challenges Jones's position with relevant objections and counterexamples. However, he may be accused of being too simplistic or biased in his representation of Christianity, and of dismissing some of the possible evidence and arguments for theism.
A non biased review of the debate!
Great comment!
Thanks bro this is helpful
Why do I feel like this is a standard ChatGPT-format answer haha
By far best comment
Alex you are KILLING it with these guests. Love the people you’re bringing on, keep it up!
This guy seems quite angry from the first few minutes.
@@XJRSuper no I’ve watched Mike before. he’s cool. He just has that expression a lot during debates and deep conversations. I think it’s a concentration thing.
I'm just 5 minutes in and tired of his lack of knowledge of the doctrine of hell.This guy is poorly rationalizing immoral unjust and wicked nonsense
Bibliolatry is no good, which canon? Which interpretational version of that canon? Why would that one be true, what is the falsifiable prove?
@@letsomethingshine try studying first: there are multiple views and you obviously don't understand any of them.
I’ve never understood why the devil would punish me for disobeying the same god he did
That's the point. The devil want you to disobey.
@@ericdanielski4802 The devil does not exist (most probably).
That’s not a Christian doctrine.
@@ericdanielski4802 But doesn’t that mean I’m on his team?
@@MenchieExtrakt "You've disobeyed god and done exactly what I wanted you to, now I'll poke your balls with this trident for all eternity"
These guys can think and articulate very quickly. It must be a gift.
It comes from expertise in their studies. When you devote lots of time to what youd like to learn it gets easier and easier to think quickly
No it comes from a long time of effort and practice.
For some it's also a grift 😂
It's a skill that can be learnt!
reading books helps me a lot
my ability to speak skyrockets when I'm consistently reading, but goes back down if I don't read for a few months
I'd never dreamt of such a mutually respectful debate. Well done you two!
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 cope and seethe 😂
@@DefenestrateYourself God through the Holy Spirit has shown me several things relating to the afterlife with the purpose of convincing people like yourself. Stuff like Heaven and Hell, Angels, ,evil Spirits, the Lord Jesus (not worthy at all), a miracle happened to me that saved my life (thank you God) & so much more. I am more than happy to give further details.
The nature of this debate was so civil. Thank you for the opportunity to hear complex, thought out arguments instead of tactics and sarcasm. I love IPs channel and it was very cool to hear someone else’s thought process as well.
So civil and yet one condemns the other to eternal torture
@@TwiddleJonesIP isn’t condemning Alex, Alex is condemning Alex
I love how someone could listen to the talk and conclude what the above commenter does. It's like that bicycle meme where they put a stick in the spokes of their wheel then blame someone else for them falling@@LeadedNevada
@@TwiddleJones ? I didn't see the guest do any condemning? He's well aware that's Gods job not his?
@@LeadedNevada god is condemning Alex to hell after forcing him to reject himself lol
As a Christian, this is a rather interesting topic. Good to know both sides of the aisle continue to have young minds who are open to listening and understanding perspectives from both sides.
My understanding is that believing in something for which there is no good evidence is: You can guess.
I too find it unreasonable to believe in things with no good evidence, like something from nothing, order from chaos, life from non- life, consciousness from non- consciousness, etc.
@@Illycrium and fortunately for us non-believers no one has ever proposed that there has ever been "nothing"... a state of complete non-existence.
@@Illycrium
"I too find it unreasonable to believe in things with no good evidence, like something from nothing"
Cite me ANY peer reviewed paper that purposes this.
"order from chaos"
What do you mean? If you are talking about our universe, it is by no means order. It is extremely chaotic. We see entire star systems that perished billions of years ago in huge cataclysmic events.
" life from non- life"
What do you mean here? Everything is made of the same things. Atoms , carbon etc. Define life.
"consciousness from non- consciousness,"
This literally happens to every human and animal ...
@@Longtack55 How can you prove that anything exists outside of your own mind? Isn’t it irrational to believe in something without direct evidence or verification?
I just found Michael’s page maybe a month or so ago. This is a conversation I really wanted to happen. Thanks to you both!!
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
I'm a big fan of Mike's channel, and I appreciate your interview, the way you compose yourself and keep it fair and well intentioned.
I've loved both of these channels for a long time and I'm really happy to see this conversation
It almost feels like every guest you get is one I needed more than the last!
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
This is such an excellent conversation! Thanks very much, Alex.
This is like a breath of fresh air. Thank you both for speaking carefully and kindly and for truly trying to listen and respond thoughtfully. I recently watched a so called debate between an atheistic and Christian scientist that ended up as shouting and slurring match. It thoroughly upset me.
Why did it upset you - these are very emotive and salient conversations, they are bound to get heated and difficult often, it's human nature even if it's unsightly to see
Both James Tour and Dave Farina are bullies.
@@Incandescence555 That's a good question. It shouldn't really touch me like that, I suppose. I'm a Christian and I think I was very disappointed in the behavior displayed by the Christian. He got overemotional and loud and disrespectful. At the same time it never makes me feel good to see anyone (Christian or atheist) say and do nasty things to others, and the atheist was just out for character assassination. Hurling insults (even at the audience). You won't be wrong if you call me sensitive. Lol
@@marcfischer114 I did not come across of that expression from James Tour but then I did not watch 100% of all his content online and there are many. Can you refer to which conversation you are talking about? I know there was recent debate between James Tour and Dave and it got charged and Dave called James pathological liar. I did not watch the debate yet myself but I saw lot of people comment like that. If you could point me to specific min in the video I would greatly appreciate it. Normally I dont like people being bully but if someone is being bully to you then I do not object responding accordingly.
The bible says there is a lake of fire. At the end of the 1000 yr reign of Christ on earth,at the end of this age even hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. There are 2 resurrections of the dead. The first is for the righteous for eternal life and the second for the unrighteous for eternal death. Both classes of people will receive physical glorified bodies to receive their reward. The same body Jesus recieved from God.
I have never heard of the idea that hell was temporary. As a Catholic, the whole “refinement for heaven” seemed a lot more like purgatory than hell doctrine.
I’m not a Catholic anymore, but I really liked this argument for Christianity (and hell) presented here. I consider myself agnostic and (through absolutely nothing but wishful thinking) would like to believe that the afterlife is just a place where everyone becomes their best selves automatically. This depiction of hell seems much more in line with that thinking and I very much appreciated it.
Yes hell is forever. Purgatory is for a while. Heaven is only for saints, but a bit broader than just the canonized ones.
hell isn't for us, hell doesnt exist, purgatory doesnt exist either
@@VVooshbait well, everyone has their own beliefs.
@@shadamyandsonamyloverbut not their own facts
Really happy Alex brought Michael on. This was a great conversation and was interesting to see both sides on this topic.
I never understood why an all-knowing being would create me, knowing I'd sin, only to then punish me for eternity. Sounds cruel
Free will bro. Even though omniscience and free will are paradoxical.
Why would "God" create us, insist in a book we have to find him and worship him, but remain hidden from us? Who would ever insist the most important thing, to save you from eternal hell, was to know God, but God hides! Christians say God isn't hiding, they mention someone they know who was cured, sunsets, smiles, thoughts they have in their heads, and provide NO evidence at all.
@@gusgrizzel8397 Also, the only "evidence" that God provides of himself can be so easily misinterpreted as well.
@@aqup_ I don't agree. Does us seeing the past mean that there is no free will from future perspective? So I have free will, but never had free will?
@@aqup_ free will doesn’t exist
Wow, I never thought I'd see this debate in my life. As an InspiringPhilosophy watcher but also a CosmicSkeptic watcher due to his vegan content (as a vegan myself), this is awesome to see, and a pleasant surprise indeed provided it is a problem I have always had as a Christian - the doctrine and subsequent justfiication of Eternal Hell. I simply cannot believe an omnibenevolent God would allow us to experience eternal suffering, even if we choose it, so hopefully this debate enlightens me to some degree. Thanks guys!
It helps that the idea of hell is unclear even among clergy and church fathers, however I believe it is enough to have faith in Gods love. What if hell is spending eternity as a disembodied spirit lamenting the lost opportunities to love and worse the times one knowingly hurt others? A ghost no longer is tempted by fleshly desires like food or sex or fatigue so maybe they are left with regret. Maybe that is what purgatory is, forgiving yourself for failing to love. Lord only knows.
@@SydneyCarton2085 Any time someone posits an eternal punishment for finite crimes is not thinking clearly. God tells us to use our brains (come and reason) when considering evidence. The evidence is clear: Jesus is love. Jesus is God. Therefore, God is love. Nobody is going to be punished eternally for crimes committed over the course of, at most, 100 years. The words of the Bible have been distorted by Satan and evil men to sow fear and doubt in the minds and hearts of human beings (just like he did in the Garden of Eden when deceiving our first parents). But our job is to dispel these lies: we are to be stronghold demolishers, destroying the lies about God's nature and character. And the worst lie ever foisted upon gullible men is that a "God of love" will torture His children forever in fire. It's a gross mischaracterization of how God will handle selfishness (sin) in unrepentant sinners.
@@cklesterwell I do believe that God torturing us by sending us to hell is wrong. The Bible says that not only will some people will go to hell, but everyone deserves to go to hell. Thats the whole point of Jesus's sacrifice. The bible clearly says that our sin nature is an anathema to the purity of God and only through the sacrifice of his son and infinite grace can we be pure enough to be in his presence. To think unrepentant sinners will go to heaven is to say Jesus's sacrifice is unnecessary and that is heracy. God is love, but he is also justice, and without being under the tent of his sons sacrifice hell being the furthest most distant place from God is the only just place for humanity to go.
@@tman040496tb It seems pretty clear that most (if not all) human beings will have a Gehenna experience. The question becomes, what is the Gehenna experience?
If you listen to the father of lies, he will tell you that Gehenna is a place of eternal burning of human beings for the sins they committed over the course of at most 100 years. This idea makes God out to be worse than Hitler. Thankfully, it cannot be reasonably supported from scripture. (Anybody can twist any scripture to make it say anything when taken out of context. Keep everything in context, and everything remains neat and tidy.)
But if you watch Jesus and read the Bible, you will conclude that God is love, and a God of love would never do something so unjust, especially to those He loves so deeply.
God says in Jeremiah 19:5: "They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!"
God is not for burning anybody.
> The bible clearly says that our sin nature is an anathema to the purity of God and only through the sacrifice of his son and infinite grace can we be pure enough to be in his presence.
If this is true, how was Jesus in the presence of human beings? How was God present with Israel through their desert experience?
Unrepentant sinners will not go to heaven. Nobody is suggesting they will.
I used to say "God is love, but he is also justice," as well. Do some research as to what God's justice in the Bible means. What is God's wrath? It is not like human wrath.
Regardless, is it just to torture a mortal, finite being in burning agony for eternity for sins committed over a finite time? No, it is not. So, no, your concept of hell is not "justice" in any sense of the word. Arbitrary vengeance? Sure. Psychotic retaliation? Yeah. Justice? No.
@@cklester for better or worse, the fear of eternal hellfire has undoubtedly deterred some from committing atrocities like murder and grape. Lord knows even though for the most part I am averse to the idea of hurting others there have been times when the fear of Gods punishment has kept me from doing so. Maybe it is providence that this healthy fear exists, and it is a healthy fear. At worst it results in some scrupulosity that can turn into serenity knowing that true repentance in reconciliation retroactively atones for sins. For example, many crimes are avoided in society because of legal consequences and since we are born into sin many are inclined to crime. Beyond the insatiable hole left by disordered appetites of the flesh, there really is no incentive for crime anyways. A person has at least two motives to avoid sin, moving away from hell/punishment AND towards heaven/love/reconciliation. Hell is non-Heaven and Heaven is non-hell.
The Christian gentleman that keeps arguing the Bible preaches hell is quite mistaken. It doesn’t preach the modern version of hell at all.
As a Christian I’ve spent much time reading scripture in the Greek snd Hebrew. There is NO WORD HELL anywhere in the Bible. There’s Sheol, hades, Gehenna and Tartarus. Only the latter is remotely close to modern hell but even that’s off and more a Greek concept than biblical. (And it’s only there once and applied to angels.)
Then there’s the issue that the books that speak of hell ARE NOT to us today. Jesus himself says he came to preach to ISRAEL, so we can’t apply his ministry to them to us. Revelation was written to 7 specific churches about what THEY were about to undergo THAT GENERATION and soon.
Finally, the scripture itself says things like, god isn’t forever angry, he won’t be away from people forever, all are made alive, etc etc. That point blank is contrary to some eternal torture chamber. (And never mind the fact that in genesis god blocked immortality so they WOULDN’T spend an eternity in a fallen state. Immortality of the soul is a Greek philosophy, not a Christian one. So god addressed the he’ll issue from the start and Jesus fixed the dead issue.)
The gentleman arguing against hell is consistently logical and even biblical, even if he’s not a Christian. I enjoyed his thinking process. Great debate.
Thanks for your informed comment. I'm just wondering, from where do you, as a Christian, get your morality?
@@grayhalf1854ultimately all morality comes from the spirit of God. But, until we learn to hear his voice and leading, it mostly comes from our culture and upbringing and the laws our lands have established.
I always found it a bit weird that we need academics and scholars to interpret the message from the all powerful creator of the universe for us
Exactly what I was thinking. What I don't understand is how apologists don't ever stop to wonder the same thing.
You need the Spirit. That which is spiritual is spiritually discerned. Lean not unto thine own understanding but study to show thyself approved. Not even the scholars and academics are always right.
@@turnage_michael what about people who claimed to know god spiritually but leave the religion later in life?
Because you don't. The vast majority of the world believe in some sort of god or creator its obvious to them, you athiests are a small minority. But you can't as an athiest craft deep and complex theological and philosophical questions then aspect the thiest to give you simple answers. You ask deep questions you get deep answers. And the best answers come from scholars.
@@TheGogogwo atheists aren’t a small minority. we’re the third largest group in the world’s population.
I am a Christian, and I enjoy listening to Alex O'Connor. A very intelligent and resoanble atheirst. I have been listening to Michael Jones for about a year now, and I really enjoy him a lot. As a believer, I learn tons from him! Good job both!
Best philosophers/debaters of their respective beliefs. Though William Lane Craig has some sick arguments too. He just needs to nail the TH-cam shorts like Michael 🤣
Wonder to who or what does jones keep flashing his eyes
Scott Hahns interpretation of heaven is a permmanent catholic mass. He got this from section of Revelation. Reads like hell to me. Eternal tedium.
Props to Alex to getting right to the point. I hate when podcasts have a 20 minute set up.
In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
God does not exist@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363why did you copy-paste this, just dont
Funny how he can’t demonstrate anything he’s saying but continues to add fictional scenarios by appealing to emotion
Thank you Alex for straight out mentioning that the percieved morality or character of something does not make it true/untrue.
Absolutely, it's actually the Catholics who say, God will be the judge of that. As an athiest I'm currently looking into Thomas Aquinas and others.
Infinite punishment for a finite offense is the epitome of unjustness
your readed a bible.what's the Mathews lord pray ?
"finite offense" that's the point, we can respect some dog from the street but not god?
@@areyoumad8224 sorry your comment is unintelligible. Maybe try again with better wording? Maybe you could be more clear.
Are you trying to respond to me or what? I’m happy to talk to you but maybe try and form a sentence that makes sense.
Did you watch the video
@@emjayy1233 I hadn't actually but i see now what i missed so thank you
What I love the MOST of all these debate videos. It is that both leave rooms for the other to speak, untill both are finished with there points. Its shamefully rare in a debate, that we get to have this kind of calm debates. Such a shame in my mind. Its one of the biggest reason I must force myself, to watch sometimes politic debates on tv etc etc. (Specially under a election year)
This comes from a person who loves debates, from small to bigger tophics overall.
No wonder most people hate most "debates", if grown adults act like children while debating. Not even just so called "adults" but but grown people who runs/wants to run the bloody country :).
What we've seen was a conversation, or discussion, not a debate. Main trouble with debates is that participants don't listen to each other with the goal of to try understand what the other is talking about but mainly listen to find something they can provide a counterargument for (often fallacious).
@@BlacksmithTWD In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.
@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 What makes you think I haven't already?
Great conversation. I am convinced that this is way better, and actually gives more intellectual food for thought, than a fully moderated and heated debate. There is a great focus on the actual substance, instead of trying to quote unquote win.
Unfortunately, in many instances those having these discussions don’t let each other finish their points without interrupting.
its interesting how alot of these christians who understand atheist arguements often have much different views of the religion compared to the norm
Well most are culturally Christian like myself and took it all for granted until I had to start researching why I am Christian. I am only as bad as society allows and without Gods grace I would slip into acting as such. Where do we get our morals?
@@SydneyCarton2085 we make them ourselves (government)
@@SydneyCarton2085 we definetely don’t get our morals from God, unless of course God changes his morals from time to time. I don’t want to follow a God that can’t make up his mind
To be fair, that applies to literally everything in life. If you know nothing about nutrition, you are likely to hold some very misinformed views, where an expert in nutrition will have very nuanced takes. I am yet to find a field in which the popular view is anywhere near adequate.
@@atanas-nikolov Humans like seeing things as black or white. However, if we can let go of our ego and realize that we might be wrong (perhaps not wrong, simply misaligned) only then can we truly hope to gain some truth from this world.
You cannot possibly hope to better understand a system if you refuse to hear its case and become more educated on its functions and qualities.
Always love your discussions and debates with aspiring philosophy you guys always very polite and cordial thank you
Thanks for having on Michael. 🤙
It continues to Astonish me as to how any reasonably intelligent person can talk about , believe in and claim the existence of God (s) that stem from bronze / iron age shaman invented myths , fables and stories based on ignorant superstitious notions of causes of the origins of mysterious phenomenon that our sciences have explained and solved but that we continue to believe in without any evidence whatsoever !
I've always said, if god exists and is perfectly just, then I have nothing to fear. I've come to my atheism honestly and with the evidence and arguments made available to me.
When you look at what religious people do and what they say, who could seriously fault someone for drawing the conclusion that it was all a contrived vehicle for craven asshole humans to exert control over other people via what is fundamentally a threat.
The evidence made available to you includes countless historical documents, geographical proof, and personal accounts from people - including former atheists and agnostics, who have no reason to lie - sharing their personal encounters with you. It's good that you're able to accept that God is just and that your choice to actively reject the evidence provided to you is completely willful.
@samuelsprings7245 haha, sounds like you responded to what you wanted me to say and think, rather than what I actually said and think, lol.
@@samuelsprings7245 People are either convinced or they're not. It's not a choice. I spend a great deal of time studying the bible and reading scholarship on the bible and the history of christianity and I've yet to find anything convincing.
@@samuelsprings7245 have you considered all the historical documents, geographical proof, and personal accounts from people of ALL religions? That's the only way to really be sure, right? Especially considering there are older religions than Christianity, Hinduism for example, which therefore must have a longer history with more documents, more personal accounts having been recorded etc.
I'm not disagreeing with you that it's important to try and take in all the evidence available for such an important topic, but it's difficult enough (if not impossible) to genuinely do this critically and rigorously for one religion unless you become a scholar and dedicate your life to it, let alone to do it for all the major religions, which is the only way to REALLY be sure
Appreciate the discussion. Thought provoking questions. You did a great job being inquisitive without being antagonistic, mocking, condescending, etc. I would be interested in hearing where the guest came up with his justifications on certain points within scripture (for example people having an option beyond death to get out of hell or being 'burned' via sanctification).
It is common catholic theology
Micheal's ideas of Christianity are utterly foreign to the Christianity the majority of people I grew up with were raised with. He's speaking very much for himself here.
Agreed.
And he's most likely more learned than virtually all if not all those Christians. We look at what the scripture most likely says not what the wider populous thinks and interprets it.
@@LtDeadeye Then they are most likely presenting a false aspect of Christianity.
@@SerendipitousProvidence There are various interpretations of Christian doctrine and he seems to know them all. But it also seems he mixes and matches them as needed. His opinions don’t seem to fall squarely into any particular shared Christian denomination except perhaps ‘simple Christianity’. In this way, he can shop around for ‘escape hatches’ and ‘gotchas’ so to speak. It’s almost like a buffet of doctrines. He’s certainly smarter than I am, so I could be wrong.
Merely because these views are not espoused by the Christian culture you're familiar with it in no way follows that these views are not considered, or have not been considered throughout the history of the Church.
The dishonesty of Jones is unparalleled both thoughtful men but Alex is actually humble and honest and Jones would give his last breath to defend a myth that is unbelievable in the 21st century. Grow up kid.
What did he say that you found dishonest?
@@cazcowatheists just wanted to see another Christian get “destroyed” and when the video doesn’t fit their expectations atheists get angry 😅
Alex, I suggest you get David Bentley Hart on the podcast at some point. He’s an Eastern Orthodox Christian who makes an arguably compelling case for Christian Universalism, an idea seemingly foreign to mainline denominations that is nonetheless worth exploring.
I’ll second David Bentley Hart - his book more or less convinced me of universalism. He’s also generally just interesting to listen to.
He's notably disrespectful, self-conceited in his own ideas and haughtily dismissive of everybody who does not agree with him, particularly on the issue of universalism. A very unpleasant individual with a very wrongheaded, even contradictory idea, who oozes contempt through every pore when referring to dissenters.
He is also remarkably smart, with a prodigious command of the English language (at which he most distinctly excels when hurling invectives carefully crafted to inflict the highest possible degree of humiliation on his adversaries).
In other words, a veritable theistic version of a hybrid between Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins. 😂
@Xavier Velasco-Suarez that's why I like him
He’s certainly conceited, yes, even at his own admission, but to call his universalist stance “wrongheaded” seems a bit much when weighing it against your typical evangelical, traditionalist Christian defenses of eternal perdition.
A comparing him to Dawkins and Hitchens was just an added insult to his intelligence, lol
I believe universalism to be self-evident from a proper reading of The Bible and it to me is the God that I believe in. All are loved unconditionally and all are ultimately redeemed.
Alex, this is what I'm gathering as a newer Christian since 2.12.22. I was an addict (porn/booze/drugs/prescription pills) and clinically depressed/anxiety/insomnia all three I needed to take medication for and after losing my mind, no sleep and body shutting down something inside me told me to repent. It was much harder than I thought because I always thought I'm a good person. Well, I felt the absence of everything good which is what God is and it was TERRIFIING!! I repented and felt forgiven. I can only describe it as a feeling of over an amount of joy/love/forgiveness that hit me so hard that to this day I don't take any medication, substances or porn 100% sobor since. The crazy thing is I don't just not do them but I truly don't want to do them. I then later read the entire bible since I never really read it before and all those things I felt aligned perfectly. I then found out that this story isn't that unusual (Just look up Porn star, gangsters, killers, drug dealer, alcoholics, addict's testimonies who now follow Jesus and are completely transformed) I then know why so many Christians want to share these same exact feeling because I do to. I then started watching Atheist TH-camrs, (GM skeptic, rationality rules, You, Paulogia) to see their angle and I honestly can't see what their endgame is, except to willingly turn themselves and others from God as some sort of profession. Especially when you see what the unsung Christians have done to pave the way we live today (Colleges, Modern Science, homeless and food shelters, orphanages and countless charities) .My point is once you feel that presence leave compared to the sweetness of his forgiveness you realize God does love you so much. I spent my life turning from him and I just needed to simply turn around so-to-speak. The same as I and everyone, like atheist, can't choose to turn away. Its like a Christian can say 'I felt the presence of God therefor I know God exist' but a atheist can't say "I never felt the presence of God therefore I know he doesn't exist' as you can't prove something exist by not experiencing it. Google says there are about 100,000,000 people convert to Christianity a year, that's over 270,000 a day. And most are because they claim they have had a similar experience.
another point that you're forgetting Alex is God wants you to simply love him and other people EVEN YOUR ENEMIES. I am so confused when atheist don't put this together. Even if you didn't believe I don't see what the harm is to abide these simple rules or even one rule LOVE or LOVE SELFLESSLY. Your analogy about the dad 'making your son do what he wants or you will make him sleep out in the rain' is missing the whole love part of the story, whether or not these hitchens/ dawkins fellas convince your made up son the love part gets misinterpreted.
Wow, what a testimony. God bless.
Right, what the loving father is asking is not only not unreasonable, but good for the child. Sin is an unsustainable way to live and atheists cannot deny this. I do not fuss over the details of heaven and hell but worry more about what I can do here and now and the only way I can love fully is from the frame of reference that God forgives me and loves me otherwise I act out of pride at best any "good deed" would simply be done to please a self image.
I had a very similar experience as you, and I agree with everything you say. I agree so much that I took the time to reply, and I hate commenting with a passion. Stay strong in the faith, brother who I’ve never met. Praise God for your testimony!
It’s frustrating because I understand exactly what you mean, but I can’t describe it with words. That’s how God is. I wouldn’t believe it myself if I didn’t experience it firsthand.
Just as I can never describe how I know beyond a doubt that God is true, some people will never believe in God even if God himself came down to talk to them. They’ll rationalize it as a hallucination, or them dreaming, or some other x reason. That’s why when people ask for proof of God, I always just want to ask them, what kind of proof do you want? What will it take for you to be 100% convinced that God is real, and that He is as He describes Himself (good, loving, just, holy, etc)? Because there will always be a reason to doubt. Faith only comes from God, and apart from Him no one would believe and be saved.
If 100 million people per year caught the christianity mind virus, in 80 years, ALL people would be christian. Yet christianity has been spreading for at least 1,663 years. The truth is that the % of christians in the World plummets every year. Today, less than 70% of America is christian. 200 years ago, America was around 99% christian. Europe is only 64% and was 72% in 2012. After 1663 years, the World in now down to 31.7% christian. Religions can only spread by the sword, because they have no merits. This is the only reason why islam still continues spreading. Christianity used to be mandatory in most countries when it started spreading from the Middle East. Christians conquered many countries, and force converted everyone and indoctrinated their children. Christianity spread by torture, rape, and genocide, and not because it was true. Today, christianity is a trillion dollar industry.
Finally! This has been a conversation I've been waiting for for a few years. Going to check your other debates after this
Wow, the wait is over now. How is your life after getting what you've been waiting for, for so long?
@@inajosmood
A hell-of-a-wait has come to an end.
When he's describing the flat earthers' psychology: "They're fighting the evil empire." "They're the ones who know the truth." Sounds like early Christian mentality.🤔
That's exactly what I thought! I immediately thought of inspiring philosophy not seeing the irony that he was describing himself.
Great conversation! My only gripe is that we didn't get to hear much of Alex's stand on these topics as most of it is rather implied through his questions.
It is then more an interview, less a debate.
I think that was intentional.
@@oscargr_ I agree let the man sink his own ship by asking him questions.
Since his channel name change he had become much more of just an interviewer
@@SteveVanWinkle except it only turned to an circle jerking.
Think very few Christian thought Micheal did an bad job at answering. Look at his channel comments. That people that follow this channel think Michael did an bad job is not surprising, only living up to the expected bias.
Alex's interview strategy is to ask the kinds of questions that could reveal or highlight inconsistencies in someone's belief. While there are moments where his personal beliefs shine through, such as the non-existence of free will, he still provides evidence for why a person might have not had agency over particular aspects of their life.
I do like the interview format because the guest can always explain their view and have the opportunity to defend it, if it is defendable.
I think the drug addict analogy paints a profoundly tragic picture of hell. The people in there would want to get out. They'd be fully aware of the truth and willing to accept it... but still unable to.
it's nice to see a civilized debate on the internet.
No! It is unusual, and that makes me afraid that there is something bad closing in😮
@@ShutUpWesley What do you mean
I only went in for 5 mins 40 seconds and Michael already disappoints. Hell is a real place, with fire, without the ability to escape and you get a new body all the time to keep on receiving pain. Of course you can go on a visit, but then you weren’t judged to be there yet. All people going there know they belong there.
@@dragonmartijn How could you possible have acquired this information
@@smilloww2095 Theology.
The idea is that there is an omnipotent being, and he chooses to spend his time punishing and rewarding humans severely strains credulity. Talk about a waste of talent! Only in a religious context would anyone even think about believing such a thing.
I enjoy this format far more than debates I feel that they are a lot more fruitful regardless of who you are inclined to agree with
I don't see why pride alone would be a determining factor as to whether you go to hell or not in the first place. If one is a kind person at heart, offering help and love to those around them, but at the same time doesn't wish to prostrate themselves for all eternity. Why must such a person be condemned to hell?
I myself might not have so much of a problem with serving an all loving God its just that the Abrahamic God doesnt seem to fit the bill for a loving or good creator deity now the Flying Spaghetti Monster on the other hand he is a pretty nice guy he boiled for our sins and created tasty ravioli for the whole human race also he has beer volcanoes beat that Christians
When I was about 7 years old the local vicar came to our school to tell us about Christianity, how good God was and that we could all live forever. It had a big effect on me and I told other people about it. I thought everything was going to be alright! The week after the another person told us about catholicism, which I found a bit frightening. Representatives came to tell us about other religions and I realised quickly that it was all just BS. They couldn't all be right with their very different stories. I also learned that grown-ups are sometimes wrong.
"Sometimes". Haha.
when I was 7 I used to run after my grandpa when he gets out to remind him to give me a dollar
The fact that they couldn't all be right doesn't mean that there isn't one that is. The same way you can test people's math and even though you'll get many wrong answers, there is a correct one.
@@agusdelgado1207 all religions are based on some kind of faith, without logic and proofs. So how could we tell which one is correct?
@@agusdelgado1207 let me guess. The only religion that's correct is the one you believe in? Arrogant much?
A thoroughly enjoyable debate, conducted in an air of civility and respect; a credit to both sides - thanks for uploading.
My takeaway, an hour later:
To resolve the obvious tension between the notion of an all-loving god and the idea of (nearly?) eternal torment in Hell, you just have to find increasingly abstract and flowery ways to say, "Yeah, but the people in Hell deserve it."
You're forgetting the all good and just part of God's nature. Because if He is all just then what the hell would be just about letting someone who spent their lives serving the poor spend eternity in the same place with Hitler?
Seriously. Can someone explain that idea? Because hell seems far more reasonable from that perspective.
@@TacosnZorro Just read the Bible so you don't get a Chinese whispers version of it.
@@TacosnZorro that idea still sounds less horrible than many peoples ideas of Hell
Thoroughly enjoyed this. I've followed IP for years, don't think I've ever seen anything from Alex, but love listening to him speak. Very thoughtful & respectful arguments from both sides. 💜
For those interested in a very good critique of annihilationism, there is a good essay by Eastern Orthodox theologian Sergius Bulgakov called “The Problem of ‘Conditional Immortality.’” It was recently translated in a collection called The Sophiology of Death. Bulgakov takes not only a theological stance but a philosophical one as well to critique the implications of either God annihilating persons or persons annihilating themselves. As someone who is a universalist, Bulgakov also puts forward a sound argument for the salvation of all, including Satan and the demons. While I appreciate Michael’s stance against an eternal hell, I think he runs into the same logical and theological issues with God’s omnipotence and maximum love when he posits that God would allow his own creatures to annihilate themselves. The free will of a person is only free if it chooses the Good in which it was made for, so any person to reject the Good to the point of metaphysical suicide doesn’t indicate free will, but insanity. An insanity in which he is a slave to in a way which would implicate God as his maker. Does the image of God reside in a creature like that? If we don’t earn salvation in earthly life, then any life after this would have the same asymmetrical relationship in which God comes after the person in love to save them. But if he desires for the salvation of all (which is theosis by the way) but even one is annihilated, then I’m what sense has he not failed?
The x-tian believer etc. has a deep seated subconscious Fear of the ending of their ego's= the conditioned christianized ego cannot/willnot face the very real possibility that it will face extinction like any other mortal being and die...
@@johnd.shultz7423 I appreciate your speaking on behalf of all Christians.
How do you reconcile (libertarian) free will with hard universalism? What's to stop me or someone else from sinning if all ultimately go to heaven? Btw, I'm familiar with Bulgakov and I have a copy of Sophiology of Death.
@@ObsidianTeen simple i don’t believe in libertarian free will and “hard” universalism is a misnomer. Free will is not the ability to pick between options as in a gnomic will but to be that which you were made to be. We were made to desire God, so true freedom will always be to desire God and nothing else.
@@JAWesquire373, surely you believe in libertarian free will in order to account for the first evil choice ever made. Otherwise God or God's decree necessitated the first evil choice. Hard universalism is not a misnomer; it's the view that all will be saved necessarily. On soft universalism all are saved contingently. Hard universalism requires that of necessity, a person stops making evil choices. Hard universalists have to bite the bullet that at least sometimes, an evil person can choose/will good without an alternative. But then why was there the option of evil to begin with, and how, apart from stability in good (Mary, Jesus, Saints in heaven), can one be necessitated to will good?
Man Aex you destroyed every single point he made. With style and overwhelming reason
I commend Alex for his immense patience, I do think that the fact that Michael is a really nice guy plays a big part in that.
Can you really be a nice guy with his kind of views?. He seems okey i guess, but also seem to think people deserve to go to hell for very silly things.
@@johanahonen8627in this SPECIFIC case I think yes because he is really defending a sort of non-Hell Hell that is much more metaphorical and also exclusively thought up by more modern Christian apologetics. He mentioned CS Lewis almost as much as he quoted the Bible. I honestly like his position a lot and think it should be more wide spread among Christians but also think it's pretty disingenuous to argue something that for almost 2000 years would have been seen as Hersey and wishful thinking by the leaders and scholars of his religion.
@@johanahonen8627 It's his belief, I can see past that. Strong beliefs hinder the ability to think clearly and logically. Everyone has cognitive barriers. I pay more attention to the way he talks, I can detach that from the details of his beliefs.
The way he talks gives me an image of someone who is really convinced that what he believes is the truth.
I can't read minds, but I know from my own experience that I have often spoken out about something in the past, when in essence I didn't really know what I was saying exactly. It is a fact that as humans we can be trapped in emotion and feelings, and therefore say strange and/or illogical things and at the same time be very convinced that we are right. His beliefs may not be directly related to his personality and true nature, in my experience he has fallen prey to indoctrination.
@@brandwijkggChristians could say the exact same things about atheists. There are millions of former atheists and agnostics - myself included - as well as people from different religions, who have converted to Christianity because they had personal encounters with Jesus Christ. Eventually, there needs to be accountability taken on the side of the atheist. Either millions of people have lied and are still lying for some reason, they're all clinically insane (unless they believe exactly what you believe), or Jesus Christ is real. You have to pick one of those three options.
@@brandwijkggConsidering Michael was an atheist and converted to Christianity in his early adult hood through a round about way (studying Egyptology and ancient religions, his atheist friends said Jesus was basically Horus, knowing this was false, it lead him to research Christianity)
I don't think the "indoctrination" or cradle Christian thing can really work.
Awesome conversation. Thank you.
This whole conversation felt like listening to a Marvel movie fan telling you his original script of how they would make Phase 4.
It may sound entertaining at first but after 15mint you want to check out because is just one person's self-indulgence.
To be precise, I presume, you are saying that this felt *to you* like this. Fair?
@@zapazap No
@@illithidhunter6177 Then to whom are you claiming it felt so, sir?
@@zapazap Listener
"If Hitchens did get the correct information and he still had that mentality, that is who hell is for." OK, now, let's put aside the fact he's basically saying if you think wrong, you burn in hell possibly forever regardless of how you conducted your life. Surely, "correct information" is whatever information is required to burn away any shadow of doubt in your soul. If not, what is "correct information"? Whatever converts the most people? Whatever converts a person god likes? Whatever converts a person Michael approves of? This whole argument seems as frivolous as the bible itself. If god himself can't convert me, he doesn't seem all that great. In that case, god's political gulag may not be as scary either.
I have two questions:
1. If God can explain everything and so certainly convince you after your death, why would he wait until you live through this life and not explain everything before?
2. Why would God create people who he will not be able to convince and who will reject him? Why not only create those who will eventually accept him?
God created man in his image,meaning you know right from wrong,you have the capacity to know what is sinful.Its not rocket science.
@@daviddeida You did not listen to the discussion between Alex and Michael, did you?
@@piotr.ziolo. Why would I bother answering another question without you acknowledging your previous ones?
@@daviddeida Your previous comment suggests that your understanding of the topic is very shallow, which I attribute to the fact that you probably did not listen to the discussion. If you have a meaningful answer taking into account what was said in the discussion I'm more than curious to see that.
Because god openly love to torture people. He's cruel.
Michael Jones doesn't seem to realise that he's simply creating yet more B grade Fan Fiction.
It's schlock, but it's better than D level fanfic like, "Once upon a time, everything was a dark and stormy singularity without any context or purpose. The End."
@@johannpopper1493 OMG I thought you were reading the bibliolatry at first, because seriously the "jealously patient random wrath" god/gott/gaut/goth "with face hidden in dark clouds" is rather just "existing there without any context or purpose" with a way uglier and less testable story than science presents.
@@letsomethingshine You're right. God is alone, and for God alone, atheism is true. If the atheist model is true, then you are God, or an illusory part of the thing. Would you make other people? Treat them well? Get angry sometimes? What would you do with all the Hitlers?
It’s completely irrelevant what some person speculates, like when he quotes these theologians. All that matters is what the Bible actually says, everything else is just wishful thinking or fanfiction.
@@johannpopper1493 But noone puts the emergence of the universe like that xD
I love how near the beginning he fights back against Alex saying that people can’t choose what compels them but then later says he wishes Universalism was true but doesn’t necessarily believe it
Sure, but a person may not always choose what they believe based on personal feelings. A person may choose what compels them because they really do think it's most in agreement with truth.
@@hyreonkthat’s exactly what many atheists do with belief in god… yet I see so many believers claiming that atheists “choose” to disbelieve god.
This is one of the biggest points Michael seemed to miss in this conversation… if atheists aren’t choosing not to believe, then how is it justified to send them to hell?
@@Vulcan_GamingYT right, as Michael explained before, and in this video, he believes in repentance after death - so nonresistent nontheists will likely end up on the right side of eternity. Even if it takes them a bit of catching up (purgatory).
I don't agree, but I only know myself. I deserve hell. I now live in repentance. Thank God for the gospel. If you're anything like me - and you are the same species, so you probably are - then Jesus died for your sins, too. I'd be happy to discuss any objections you may have.
@@hyreonkwhat about the chinese man that lived two thousand years before jesus did? does he deserve hell forever despite not having the same opportunities as you to repent?
@@tommytwo-times9053 The Catholic church affirms with the early Christian writer Justin Martyr that "We have been taught that Christ is the First-born of God, and we have suggested above that He is the logos of whom every race of men and women were partakers. And they who lived with the logos are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and people like them."
In short: Jesus is the Word. Some non-Christians came to acknowledge the existence and dedicate their life to the Word. In a real sense, they are Christians. They not only had the same opportunity to repent - they took it.
Great conversation!
Although this version of events sound better at first, it still has a lot of very strange issues to my mind. God is apparently happy for almost everyone to have the wrong information about himself and what exactly a "sin" is until after they are dead, including most Christians. Then at that point you are faced with a hugely painful event to get into heaven, based on breaking rules you didn’t even properly know about.
God could very possibly not be happy with us having mere knowledge of his existence. To wrestle with the knowledge, to pray and meditate over passages you read, brings about a deeper participatory knowledge. Misinformation should not affect our faith if we see counter arguments. MAGA, flat earthers and antivaxxers are hardened by prior conviction, but found studies or sources that confirm their biases.
Romans 1:1o-20 states that God is known through observation, in 20, his ontological attributes can be clearly perceived.
He says that a rapist who seeks forgiveness on his deathbed from Christ doesn't get forgiven because he still has to have an accounting with God. But I'm certain he believes that anyone who confesses Christ as the son of God and genuinely repent their sins to Christ passes that accounting. So it's simply a semantics game-a rapist who confesses on his deathbed gets into heaven
Ofc but they still need to be judged
@@levykenway1471 while their innocent victim who is an atheist gets punished for eternity - some morality you’ve got there
You still have to live in Jesus’ word to actually go to heaven
@@jjk4002 then you support an immoral system
@@colinross3755 who are you to decide their faith lol
This is great, because I sort of discovered you two at the same time. Cool journey introducing myself first to Michaels various video essays on the famous arguments, then looking Alex's sort of rebuttals or doubts. I think that still Leibnitz ' argument is the most solid :)
What was the Leibniz argument again?
@@bruhdabones It's similar to the first mover argument, and kalam is like an extension into it. Every thing can be explained by an event before it, so everything that exists has some kind of cause or causer. Leibnitz argues that universe began to exist, so something must be beyond it that caused it to exist, some kind of transcendental force. Look up Cosmological argument, im not good at wording it.
@@pixboi oh I get it, thanks
@@pixboi What's before God?
@@justaway6901 i consider whatever greater than the universe out of comprehension to possess some God qualities, and I believe that kind of thing doesn't need a causer for it is the ultimate beginning. If there was something before God, it wouldn't be considered a god, perhaps a minor god.
The fallacy of Michael Jones is that he believes that people have free will and can make free choices. He believes that people could have done/choosen otherwise in their live. It’s a misconception…
The issue of a literal Hell consisting of “eternal conscious suffering” was the lynch pin in the deconstruction of my almost forty years as an evangelical fundamentalist.
Michael’s view is not even consistent with the majority of Christians today or in history.
Just another theological belief that is not universal….along with every other doctrinal issue in Christianity that no two people can agree upon.
Love ya Alex.
Jones contradicts everything jesus says about hell.
“I don’t want to go to heaven. None of my friends are there.”
- Oscar Wilde
Kind of presupposes one will have friends in hell, doesn’t it?
@@samdg1234 Sherlock Holmes? Is that you?
@@AB-et6nj no shit it is 😂
Of course none of his friends are there because no one is there because it does not exist. Same for hell.
I am pretty sure Wilde sexually abused young boys.
My favourite apologetic and the only skeptic that actually makes me question my faith debating! Now that's a surprise I've been waiting for!
If God is responsible for us existing in the first place, then God is responsible for whichever of us going to Hell.
Here is food for thought. A perfect being cannot be pleased, thus your prayers are meaningless.
@@aqup_ I don't think prayers are meant to please but rather to humble ourselves
@@wet-read yes and wouldn't be logical for that responsabilty to be entrusted to the being from which moral goodness comes from?
@@Mister_A_149 why have that responsibility at all? according to theists, god decided that that responsibility was neccesary in the first place and then gave himself it. needing to fulfill a responsibility that you created doesn't excuse you from creating the responsibility in the first place, nor does it excuse fulfilling the responsibility in any way you see fit
I must say. I like this guy Michael Jones. His pattern of thinking and way of arguing reminds me a bit of the antique philosopher Plotinus, where the main issue of judging a persons Life and moral is the direction the soul is aligned. Towards the good and perfect or towards the worldly and profane. Also Kants Good Will as what he thinks should be the main source of moral decisions. Great guys with big hearts. We all dont know how God will decide, nor what will happen after death. But I do hope noone will ever harm them. Thx
Alex as usual you offer a more practical analysis of this saga we've found ourselves in... You actually asked a question I've been asking others for a while now: "where is God in all this?" Not in those exact words of course but pretty close. And although I'm not an atheist or Christian I very much enjoy your work. Keep it up. Hope to have an interaction with you someday.
Actually, listening to Alex intellectually question God's righteous judgement made my stomach turn... 😢
That is a question even believers ask (Psalms is riddled with songs inquiring about God’s presence). It’s something very human, to ask for a deity’s presence and where the deity is.
We could be approaching the end times, but that is conjecture and we ultimately do not know. God in his omniscience does know what the best time would be. Our foreknowledge is still relatively limited, because of the fog of decisions we cannot reasonably factor in.
@@eswn1816 Remember the Bereans, who scrutinized Paul's teachings and compared them against scripture. Earnestly seeking truth will lead you to God. Jesus himself said "I am the way, the truth, and the life." Rejoice at Alex's questioning, if he does so earnestly, it will lead him to truth.
@@eswn1816yeah man, totally uncool to question the bible. We are commanded to obey and trust in Jesus. How dare we use the intellect that we were cursed with by Adam and eve eating from that stupid tree of knowlwdge.
@@jimijenkins2548
Re-read my comment.
It's not about his examining and comparing scriptures... It's about his questioning the judgement of God.
BIG difference! 🙏
Why don't just god explain all these things clearly, by himslef, that every humans can fully understand... instead of letting people to misrepresent him and create more confusion....
Yup… if it only was that easy eh! 😅
Fascinating conversation! His view on hell is definitely very different from the mainstream Christian view
Not really
@@DrownedinDesigner I was raised catholic in Spain and I never met anyone who described hell or heaven anywhere close on what he did. His position defies most of the history of Christian dogma
@ My initial thought was, "He has tried to address a discrepancy he (or someone else) identified in the different passages, and has created a version (not that he is the first to do so) that includes enough from the original material (the stuff that doesn't seem to contradict), that it allows him to still pursue the religion carefully, but still not antagonistically."
I'm glad he, at least here, has done this. The typical depiction of a Christian and their views on hell are worrisome, and not well thought out.
@ That's not true, though. Anecdotal examples aren't data. We can see what religious philosophers have been saying for thousands of years. What a pastor in Spain said in your youth doesn't equate to "most of the history of Christian dogma."
@ While not exact, THERE WERE early greek church fathers that held a view similar to Michael, because of how the duration of hell is described in the original greek, which referred moreso as a long age of correction thaN eternal torment. Though this is still often disputed today, so I'm not sure.
Infinite punishment for finite “sins” is pure unadulterated evil
It not about pure punishment. It’s about the fundamental ‘distance’ from God that comes with sinning. God is the source of eternal life and separation is eternal death.
He's a really good example of what a Christian should be. What a good dude. Thank you for inviting him Alex, and thank you Michael.
I would say there's a lot of unbiblical things he believes. From a Christian perspective, it's like a pseudoscientist being interviewed. Not quite standard.
You mean making up his own version of Christianity?
@PeaceMaker I don't care about the "3 views"......the Bible clearly says hell is eternal and that the only way to heaven is by accepting jesus.
@PeaceMaker The guy we are commenting about makes up his own version of Christianity where Hell isn't eternal and you can get to heaven without accepting Christ ...I'm not talking about Universalism, I'm talking about this video. I'm not a believer but I have read the Bible and this guy isn't representing the Bible or mainstream Christianity.
@PeaceMaker I can't remember how he worded it but he did say it...and he explicitly said he believes Hell needn't be forever, again, I haven't even mentioned universalism that has nothing to do with my point.
Surely, anyone in history who was crucified or tortured to death and went to hell suffered a worse fate than Jesus.
No, because even if you suffered through crucifixion, you will never be able to take on the mental toll that Jesus did: taking all of the sin of the world. I don’t mean to spread negativity, just a thought 🙏
@DraperReacts but surely the sin of the world is the sin of every person who has lived and will live. It is a lot of people but not infinite.
Burning in hell or Eternity is literally maximum pain for infinity.
I would pick maximum pain for one evening then maximum pain for eternity.
But anyway, this is all nonsense
@trapd00rspiderthere is no evidence that hell is finite in the scripture. You and the speaker in this video are inventing stuff to make yourselves feel better.
The concept of hell is what made me an atheist
And when you get there you'll no longer be an atheist.
it's similar to these old viral Facebook memes: "if you don't share this post something bad will happen to you, etc"
No wonder Christianity spread so fast.
@@pdjinne65 it’s a death cult, predicated on fear and control
great conversation, what a gift - ty both
I'd love to hear a part 2 with either Glenn Peoples of Right Reason or Chris Date of Rethinking Hell! I think they would give very different answers that would be closer to my own views of course haha
I have a feeling that Alex has quite the intellectual gauntlet of podcasts lined up for us.
As an Orthodox Christian this was a very interesting conversation! Michael is quite close to the Orthodox conception of hell but is unfortunately dragged down by being committed to a legal framework of sin, and connected to that, penal substitutionary atonement.
I am a Christian but could you elaborate more on this?? I rather enjoyed his opinion but what is your view of hell?
@@samanthaannfuchsgruber It's been a couple of months since I've watched the video so this may not be entirely accurate, but Michael describing hell more as a state or experience rather than a literal place, and that the punishment of hell is more internal rather than externally imposed is quite close to the Orthodox view. However, in the Orthodox Church we would describe salvation primarily as theosis or deification. So our salvation from sin and death in Christ is through becoming like Christ, becoming deified. Michael seems like he holds to some form of penal substitutionary atonement however which teaches that we are essentially saved from God's justice through Christ taking the punishment due to us, and so salvation becomes not only transactional, but meaningless in terms of sin and death. And so because of this Micheal doesn't seem to fully be able to connect the atonement with the eschatological reality. Hope that makes some sense! I would probably have to rewatch the video to give specifics.
@@curtisben79 Thank you so much for your help!!! That is very helpful. I definitely would say I believe in "substitutionary atonement" and conduct myself in real life as though everyone is going to heaven (assuming that everyone will find God). However, that is how I conduct myself. I know God suffered for us and for that reason, some souls are in hell. It is not an empty or imaginary place.
@@samanthaannfuchsgruber this is not the only view within Orthodoxy, the issue is complex (as you know) and the eastern churches have always put a bit more emphasis on mystery, that is in the end, we cannot know for certain, in this life at least.
sin is usually thought of as an illness and Christ the physician.
@@sillythewanderer4221 thank you for your reply. I really appreciate this. I fell in love with the scholastic nature of Catholicism (Christ reached me through my mind) but of course, this was primarily done through my heart thanks to the Holy Spirit. I deeply love the Orthodoxy emphasis on mysticism. Sometimes, getting too caught up in the endless dance of rationality and apologetics can be negative for spiritual growth. We are not merely here to think. We are here from Love Himself to love other people. That is the highest goal, and it is beautiful. I am now inspired to deepen my spiritual journey. God has been far too kind to me and I do not wish to let that go.
God is all knowing and nothing happens without his will.
People choose to go to hell because they refuse to obey gods command.
See how these two things cannot coexist at the same time?
No that is not contradictory
One of the most baffling things about Christians/apologists is their ability to confidently list the characteristics of God and heaven like, "God is all loving, God is perfectly just, God doesn't send you to hell, you must be sanctified before entering heaven, the fire of hell is within....etc". The question I keep asking myself is how? How do you know all of this? How did you obtain all this information that seems impossible to obtain unless you went to heaven/hell and met God? I was very surprised when jones said "I don't know", when asked whether or not sinners are given better information before going to hell. Like...
really? You spent 10 minutes painting a vivid picture of hell and heaven and God, and describing the exact process by which God operates before condemning a person to hell, but you can't tell me if God will correct my misinformation before I go to hell? That's the specific point at which you knowledge is limited? And he tries to act humble like "I don't know, nobody knows" - dude everything that you just said about God and hell and heaven is also stuff that you couldn't possibly know. Really at the end of the day, God's silence on this topic is deafening. I'm teird of listening to guys like Jones while God keeps quiet. Everything, literally everything that jones has said could be wrong and God would just sit back and keep quiet.
Verbose but true.😂
Literally my exact thoughts while listening to him. I feel like this was an argument Jones could only lose, because at best he could demonstrate his views of hell aren't an absolutely contradictory mess (which I'm not sure he even completely managed). But even in that case, I just listen to him and wonder why in the world I would believe him vs Hindus or Muslims or Catholics or any other person making confident claims about what happens after death on nothing more than claims God happened to reveal the truth to them and/or those they quote.
They don’t know. They’re lying to protect their ego.
Based on your comment it seems like you have to personally observe something in order for it to be true.
I understand it’s not convincing enough for you but he is basing it off what the Bible says about God’s character and Hell. Notice how Alex doesn’t press him on this because your question is very obviously answered.
Even Sam Harris arrogant enough to say God doesn’t exist, you can be 99% sure but in the same way Jone is just being intellectually honest.
I don’t understand the litany of comments just like this, why listen to the discussion in the first place, because if he said I know for sure you’d be upset cuz “how could he know” but he says idk and then it’s “how could he possibly believe this if he doesn’t know”.
@@mikesingh6099 it’s a fruitless pursuit to discuss specific details about an entity whose very existence you can have no direct knowledge of. These conversations are at best mental masturbation, but more often are simply a window into the psyche of the one who claims to be a believer.
Atheist: does God send people to hell?
Christian: No! No! Well, but actually... YES.
He super-intends it, which is morally arguably not really different from sending people
Educated Christians will refer to C. S. Lewis' idea that the gates of hell are locked from the inside.
@@justus4684 Took me a while to figure out what “morally” and “arguably” were modifying. . .
He sends people to hell based upon their own moral decisions but atheists want to reject autonomy and accountability when it suits them.
Atheists: why should I go to jail for killing that man
Me: did you desire to do it?, did you use the weapon, did you have the ability to walk away?
Atheist: yes
Me: Then you chose to do the crime that sends you to jail
@@ReformedR Well, well, well. Tell us in more detail how hell is connected with responsibility. And also about the purpose of imprisonment and the purpose of being sent to hell, well, since you made such an analogy.
He says he isn't convinced you're stuck in hell. His bible says angels were thrown out of heaven, so if you sin in heaven, you can be thrown out. "We still need to be sanctified." What does that mean? So going through life isn't enough, the game is still on in heaven! Some say you can't sin in heaven, but then, you'd be without choice or freedom. It's a constant circle of illogic.
Stellar comment!
@@Soapandwater6 Thank you!
The church’s history of belief is that angels were created with full understanding of who God is, what His plans are for angels and humans, and what their role is in that system. So when they choose to reject Him and His plan, they have all the possible information. So they leave that system, and are removed for Heaven because that will be where humans ultimately reside with more power than the angels in the end. Humans however are born and live on Earth with much less understanding and ability to grasp the entire picture. As we come to know God, and experience life in the spiritual realm after death, then we approach the same level of knowledge that the angels have. And if we choose to accept God and Jesus and their plan for the afterlife in eternity in Heaven with them and the others in that realm, then we won’t have a need or desire to sin (ie move against the plan and the system in Heaven) so we won’t be “kicked out” because there won’t be additional new information that will make us change our decision at that point. “Sanctification” is the process of being willing and able to desire living in accordance with that eternal plan once we have “all the information “ and have dealt with/resolved/been healed from all our human flaws/life traumas/sins/etc that are related to having lived our lives as humans on Earth. Or that’s how I understand the way these ideas have been explored in church history. Now that we have so many denominations that have split over different ideas it’s possible to find some that no longer agree with these earlier ideas.
@@selahr. A big part of my conversion to Christianity was finding out that all my clever objections had been answered, usually more than a millennium ago
Not really but ok
I never understood why an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good god would be so inefficient and inarticulate at revelation...
Alex, superb. Really helps someone that doesn’t encounter these conversations in everyday life to enlighten themselves.
It seems so difficult and challenging for a human being in this world; for someone simply trying to do what's right. All of this can make a person scared to just be alive lest one do the wrong thing or believe the wrong thing.
Been loving the guests lately!
I struggled with your channel through the vegan phase. May be my own hypocrisy being highlighted to me, but goodness gracious I’m glad to be back on your content. Some of my favourite content anywhere. I don’t find much that scratches that philosophical, intellectual itch. Plus I’m jealous that you and Chris Williams are friends, I’d love to end up on an after dinner table with you pair 👍🏻
Thank you Alex 😊
Holy crap, I can't believe this happened!! Two TH-cam heavyweights in their respective fields, and I LOVE THIS SO MUCH OMG
IP doesn't impress me
@@uninspired3583 good for you I guess? 👏
@@Joelthinker yeah it just means I feel differently about calling him a heavyweight.
@@uninspired3583 in their respective spheres of influence, they are. Most people who follow atheist channels know Alex, and most who follow Christian content know Michael.
They've both been parts of debates and interviews with other very influential thought leaders as well.
@@uninspired3583 He was heavy enough to be invited on Alex's platform
This was cool! Let’s pray that Jesus breaks through to this English chap 🙏❤️
I hate to break it to ya but "Jesus" never broke through to you.
@@ryanthomas7119 Hi, um... Jesus saved my life. He is amazing and perfect and holy. Don't tell people their own life story. It's equivalent to someone saying, "I was lost in a desert with no water and my friend brought me water so I lived." and you saying, "I hate to tell you this, but no one brought you water." So how are we alive? How do we have joy? How do we suddenly know what true love is? How do we worship and dance and serve others? Because Jesus touched us! He saved, changed, and loved us!
@@jadehart2257 Ive managed to resist making a joke about the sentence Jesus touched us due to my amazing self-restraint anyway in the desert analogy there is no other explanation for it other than well water Im not so sure that is the case with people having religious or mystical experiences its at least not obvious to everyone that that is the case
@@S.D.323what’s the joke 😅 I promise I won’t be offended
Why didn't Michael come right out and say that he believes in free will when Alex began to talk about people not being at fault? That would have made the part about people sending themselves to hell a lot shorter. Because ultimately, Michael's view has to be that despite all influencing factors, we still have the capacity to decide freely enough where we want to spend the afterlife.
at 36:58 Alex forces Jones to say that he "doesn't know and no one does" in his response. Well done Alex. This is Jones' only honest answer of the day and one in which more christians should follow. Single highlight though because after that he goes back to knowing everything that god wants once again...
"Given the right information" could be very simplistic. We have our own biases and our own way of perceiving things. 10 different people given the same info can still come out with 10 different perceptions.
This is a simplistic view of what "right information" encompasses
Part of "right information" would address the misapprehensions that lead to our biases and tell us proper ways to manage the biases
It's also not the same information for all 10 people, it would be the right sets of information for each of them
The primary problem I see with every faith-based system is that each is just as likely to be true as all of the others because all of them require belief prior to demonstrating even just the weakest evidence of itself. If there really was an all-powerful god, and if an eternity of hell were a real threat, claiming to know the mind and desires of such a being could be exactly the thing that it might find offensive. The only logical position is to take no position. Humans are arrogant enough without going around believing we might know what the creator of the universe might be thinking.
Not so. I am a Christian because I think that there are good philosophical arguments for supposing that God is the type of god found in the Abrahamic religions, and that there is enough historical evidence to make Jesus' ministry historical and his resurrection more likely than not
@@a.i.l1074 did you believe in some other religion before? Or did you grow up as an atheist?
@@TheAndnor Grew up atheist. Atheist family at least 2 generations back, majority atheist but historically Christian country
@@a.i.l1074 Ok. Just curious 😊
Why did you start believing? I have never heard a good philosophical argument, and those that exist can be equally well applied to other religions.
And historical evidence for jesus, sure. But we have better evidence for Mohammed, and the quran doesnt contain nearly as many errors and contradictions as the bible, so why not be a muslim?
@@TheAndnor difficult question, it was a long process. Two things helped:
1. I used to engage with these questions like "let's debunk this ridiculous superstition", but then I noticed that genuinely intelligent people believed it. You say none of the arguments are any good, I've got to disagree: when you spend a lot of time with them and really get into the details, atheism is not clearly the most rational position.
2. There are some half-way positions which were more palatable to hold at first. Like religious experiences are real phenomena, God is real in the way that morality and love are, religion has some benefits or beauty. Slippery slope
We probably have more evidence about the minutiae of Mohammed's life, but his main miraculous claims are the night journey and the revelation of the Quran. Those do not impress me. There are more plausible explanations for the rise of Islam, like the Arabs adapting the faith of the Jews and Christians they conquered.
The central miracle of Christianity is the resurrection, which had hundreds of witnesses and was falsifiable at the time the Gospels were written. I haven't heard a theory of what happened during and after Jesus' ministry that better explains the historical data.
Cosmicskeptic great work! Keep it up!
Thank you both for this amazing debate.
michael Jones is the king of making stuff up to make his religious belief seem less obviously incoherent, and ending up with something even more incoherent.
as an example, literally the first assertion he makes - that 'hell is metaphorical since we lose our physical bodies, and how would fire hurt you' - completely undermines his belief that the material world is non existent in reality and that the physical is the product of the mental.
If the 'mental' is all that exists, then whatever he asserts is actually being represented by what we call the physical realm is just as metaphorical as the supposed Hell he imagines.
So in one foul swoop he's contradicted his entire worldview, just to pretend that the Biblical Hell is not what it seems to be.
Bibliolatry is bibliolatry, regardless of which canon, version, or edition the pagan-mind descendant chooses. Will it be the one from King James of England? Will it be the American Catholic Bishiops' NABRE version? The Greek Orthodox Septuagint, that includes apocrypha? The Ethiopian canon with many more apocrypha than others? And there are many more.
He is also the king of quoting CS Lewis
Your the king of ignorance about the Bible!
@@chrisgray7737
yeah, there was a couple of years where all the American apologists quoted Lewis - Americans are easily impressed by an English accent. They don't tend to rely on him these days since atheists weren't impressed.
@@bengreen171 I have noticed that even firsthand with a friend of mine that is pastor. He said to me “CS Lewis was right, huh?” I replied “Bertrand Russell
I thought was right”
Around 23:02 alex says, people being compelled, to desire what they desire and ultimately it may not be their fault. But the issue is, people don't automatically change just because they got the right information, if that were the case then, we'd be a bunch of if then else statements walking around. We get the information and we change accordingly, that rarely happens, what happens more than likely is to stay the same even if presented with life changing information. I'm not a Christian, just a little push back to his argument.
This one really excites me, can't wait to listen to it!
Wow, just wow, the guy just blew my mind, it's such a beautiful description of hell that I want to go there. It hit me in the right way if you do a lot of mental gimnastics to see it from a mental health point of view. If a person is traumatised, depressed, anxious or addicted it feels like hell, but going to therapy and work though your trauma is also scary and sometimes painful, sometimes the trauma is so big you just cannot heal, you cannot escape, you certainly cannot do it on your own and the idea of Jesus like someone who would try to pull you out of your trauma and your trauma is incredibly healing.