(Side Note) The word "ethnos" in the Septuagint (Hebrew) is "go'ee, go'-ee". It is the same as in the Greek, (read 'Part 1' below), except in the Old Testament it is used 558 times as opposed to 164 times in the New Testament.
Rev 7 is part of the 6th seal. The church will not go through the Great Trib but will come out of it at the 6th seal which is The Day of the Lord, the 2nd Coming of Christ & the Resurrection of Mt.24, Mk.13 & Lk.21.It is also the day of God's wrath Isa 13:13 & is the 1st event of GT, Dan 12:1-3. The multitude that John saw was not "coming out" of GT but CAME OUT of it. The Abom of Des.is the sign of His coming. In Lk 17:30,31Jesus says IN THAT DAY He will be Revealed. It's a Mid trib 2nd Coming.
This is a new group, which appears after the great multitude Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, WHAT ARE THESE WHICH ARE ARRAYED IN WHITE ROBES? and whence came they? Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Mike65809 there isn't. We were promised tribulation by Jesus at the sermon on the mount. We will go through tribulation. All true chosen elect do. There is no secret rapture. There is no pre trib rapture. We will all be raised at Jesus' return.
Well, yes, actually I do have a Bible. I does not speak about a Pre-tribulation rapture, an idea based in dispensational theology. As far as I can see, there is simply the Old covenant and the New. The concept of a church age coming to an end is not scriptural. What ends is the coming in of the Gentiles. But the church, the Bride of Christ, lasts forever. God bless.
Jesus wasn't speaking to you, He was speaking to the Jews. He later appointed Paul the apostle to the gentiles. You MUST rightly divide God's word to understand. Learn about dispensations also. Study to show yourself approved!
Philidelphia Raptured LAODICEAN = Left Behind Re 3:16 So then because thou (Laodiceans) are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.Re 3:10 I also will keep thee (Philidelphian Church) from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.Re 6:11 And white robes were given to them; and they should rest until their fellowservants and brethren, (Laodiceans) should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(Part 1) @Johnankerberg This man is clearly using the Greek when it "supports" him, but completely forgetting to mention it when it contradicts his beliefs. For example, in Rev 7:9, the word "nation" is the Greek word "eth'-nos". Its definition is a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one. The word "ethnos: is used 164 times in the new testament, 93 times it refers directly to the Gentiles, 64 times to a Gentile nation, 5 times to the heathen, and 2 times to a non-Jewish people.
I would like to see someone prove a rapture, the scriptures do not teach it. This teaching is not consistant with the flow of scripture. The Word of God teaches that He will keep us through trials and tribulations but not remove us from them.
Rubbish! Dr. Renald Showers, you are clearly wrong in your Greek exegesis of this verse. The Greek participle or verbal noun "oi erchomenoi" is in the present tense. That's correct according to the foremost American Greek Scholar Dr. A.T. Robertson you quoted But with all due respect Sir, Dr. Robertson was analysing ONLY the Greek participle ALONE APART from the context. In that case, ISOLATED from the context, it is true that he would parsed "oi erchomenoi" as a PRESENT Tense Participle. You insisted that the tense of the Greek participle is determine by the context of the passage. Of course it is! But you are not following the rules you said. According to another American Greek Scholar Dr. J. Gresham Machen, professor of New Testament in Westminster Theological Seminary , Philadelphia, U.S.A in page 105 of his "New Testament Greek for Beginners" under Item 233 The Use of the Participle he said, The tense of the participle is RELATIVE to the TIME OF THE LEADING VERB. The present participle, therefore, is used if the action denoted by the participle is represented as taking place AT THE SAME TIME as the action denoted by THE LEADING VERB, no matter whether the action denoted by the leading verb is past, present or future. He then gave 3 examples and said the English word (WHILE) should be inserted to make the Greek tense more accurate when translating into English. Thus we should read, understand and translate Rev 7:9 "These are they (WHILE) or AT THE SAME TIME , "OI ERCHOMENOI " ARE COMING OUT ONES of the Great Tribulation , they HAVE WASHED (the leading verb "EPLUSAN" 1st Aorist PastTense) their robes and they HAVE MADE (another leading verb "ELEUKANAN" 1st Aorist Past Tense again!) them white in the blood of the lamb. So the "TIME" of a Greek sentence is fixed by the VERB of the sentence IN IT'S CONTEXT, NOT BY THE TENSE OF A PARTICIPLE (A SINGLE WORD) ITSELF! Dr. A.T Robertson, if you would study his Greek Grammar would agree with Dr. J. Gresham Machen more and disagree with Dr. Renald Showers even more!
you are wrong you do not know the word of God he is right about the multitude who came out of the great tribulation they were matter. marytered by the anti Christ. this group is not the church.
the price of salvation is paid in blood in the tribulation but not so outside the tribulation. not every one will sleep but be changed in the twinkling in an eye. these souls all face death but not so with the bride of Christ. some will be alive and taken...
1 Thes 4 says the dead in Christ rise 1st, then we who are alive & remain shall be caught up. If n Rev 4/5 there was a pretrib rapture, why are there still souls of martyres under the altar n Rev 6:9? This is after 5th seal is opened. If the dead rise 1st, why are they not n resurrected bodies? These are martyres from 1st century til great trib saints in Rev 7. There is no pretrib rapture, Jesus returns once more, at the end, the last day is when we will be raised. John 6:39,40,44&54. PeaceB2All
Check this out: At the end of the tribulation, Jesus has to come back and save the day, because even a moment later, we would all kill ourselves, and when he comes back, he will resurrect all humans from all generations EVER to meet him as he comes down. Along with them, the 144,000 and the great multitude who are still alive. The problem is people think after people die the go to heaven. Not so, they stay in the grave till Christ comes the 2nd time, THEN meet him in the air as a whole.
Joshua B The second half of the tribulation is the bowls... The seals are the birthpains. The 144k are gathered and sealed to be resurrected (Isaiah 35, Matthew 24:31-6th Seal)
![[UNCUT] "บอสณวัฒน์" แฉ! แหล่งซุกเงินแก๊งบอส ขยันผิดที่ไม่กี่ปีก็เข้าคุก l คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ l17ต.ค.67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/BL56qIfXYZM/mqdefault.jpg)
(Side Note) The word "ethnos" in the Septuagint (Hebrew) is "go'ee, go'-ee". It is the same as in the Greek, (read 'Part 1' below), except in the Old Testament it is used 558 times as opposed to 164 times in the New Testament.
Rev 7 is part of the 6th seal. The church will not go through the Great Trib but will come out of it at the 6th seal which is The Day of the Lord, the 2nd Coming of Christ & the Resurrection of Mt.24, Mk.13 & Lk.21.It is also the day of God's wrath Isa 13:13 & is the 1st event of GT, Dan 12:1-3. The multitude that John saw was not "coming out" of GT but CAME OUT of it. The Abom of Des.is the sign of His coming. In Lk 17:30,31Jesus says IN THAT DAY He will be Revealed. It's a Mid trib 2nd Coming.
This is a new group, which appears after the great multitude
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, WHAT ARE THESE WHICH ARE ARRAYED IN WHITE ROBES? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
the word maranatha means the Lord cometh...
How can there be a Pre-tribulation rapture if Jesus said He would raise us up on the Last Day?
Mike?__ do you not have a Bible? can't you read for yourself and study_instead of asking others to explain things for you.
Mike65809 there isn't. We were promised tribulation by Jesus at the sermon on the mount. We will go through tribulation. All true chosen elect do. There is no secret rapture. There is no pre trib rapture. We will all be raised at Jesus' return.
c0nqu3r3rlol tribulation in this world__ not thee great tribulation. big difference. study more.
Well, yes, actually I do have a Bible. I does not speak about a Pre-tribulation rapture, an idea based in dispensational theology. As far as I can see, there is simply the Old covenant and the New. The concept of a church age coming to an end is not scriptural. What ends is the coming in of the Gentiles. But the church, the Bride of Christ, lasts forever. God bless.
Jesus wasn't speaking to you, He was speaking to the Jews. He later appointed Paul the apostle to the gentiles. You MUST rightly divide God's word to understand. Learn about dispensations also. Study to show yourself approved!
Philidelphia Raptured
LAODICEAN = Left Behind
Re 3:16 So then because thou (Laodiceans) are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.Re 3:10 I also will keep thee (Philidelphian Church) from the hour of temptation,
which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.Re 6:11 And white robes were given to them; and they should rest until their fellowservants and brethren, (Laodiceans) should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Amen. Check out Isaiah 26:20
(Part 1) @Johnankerberg This man is clearly using the Greek when it "supports" him, but completely forgetting to mention it when it contradicts his beliefs.
For example, in Rev 7:9, the word "nation" is the Greek word "eth'-nos". Its definition is a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one.
The word "ethnos: is used 164 times in the new testament, 93 times it refers directly to the Gentiles, 64 times to a Gentile nation, 5 times to the heathen, and 2 times to a non-Jewish people.
I would like to see someone prove a rapture, the scriptures do not teach it. This teaching is not consistant with the flow of scripture. The Word of God teaches that He will keep us through trials and tribulations but not remove us from them.
Rubbish! Dr. Renald Showers, you are clearly wrong in your Greek exegesis of this verse.
The Greek participle or verbal noun "oi erchomenoi" is in the present tense. That's correct according to the foremost American Greek Scholar Dr. A.T. Robertson you quoted But with all due respect Sir, Dr. Robertson was analysing ONLY the Greek participle ALONE APART from the context. In that case, ISOLATED from the context, it is true that he would parsed "oi erchomenoi" as a PRESENT Tense Participle. You insisted that the tense of the Greek participle is determine by the context of the passage. Of course it is! But you are not following the rules you said. According to another American Greek Scholar Dr. J. Gresham Machen, professor of New Testament in Westminster Theological Seminary , Philadelphia, U.S.A in page 105 of his "New Testament Greek for Beginners" under Item 233 The Use of the Participle he said, The tense of the participle is RELATIVE to the TIME OF THE LEADING VERB. The present participle, therefore, is used if the action denoted by the participle is represented as taking place AT THE SAME TIME as the action denoted by THE LEADING VERB, no matter whether the action denoted by the leading verb is past, present or future. He then gave 3 examples and said the English word (WHILE) should be inserted to make the Greek tense more accurate when translating into English.
Thus we should read, understand and translate Rev 7:9 "These are they (WHILE) or AT THE SAME TIME , "OI ERCHOMENOI " ARE COMING OUT ONES of the Great Tribulation , they HAVE WASHED (the leading verb "EPLUSAN" 1st Aorist PastTense) their robes and they HAVE MADE (another leading verb "ELEUKANAN" 1st Aorist Past Tense again!) them white in the blood of the lamb.
So the "TIME" of a Greek sentence is fixed by the VERB of the sentence IN IT'S CONTEXT, NOT BY THE TENSE OF A PARTICIPLE (A SINGLE WORD) ITSELF!
Dr. A.T Robertson, if you would study his Greek Grammar would agree with Dr. J. Gresham Machen more and disagree with Dr. Renald Showers even more!
you are wrong you do not know the word of God he is right about the multitude who came out of the great tribulation they were matter.
marytered by the anti Christ. this group is not the church.
the price of salvation is paid in blood in the tribulation but not so outside the tribulation. not every one will sleep but be changed in the twinkling in an eye. these souls all face death but not so with the bride of Christ. some will be alive and taken...
the church is not even petition in the tribulation
1 Thes 4 says the dead in Christ rise 1st, then we who are alive & remain shall be caught up. If n Rev 4/5 there was a pretrib rapture, why are there still souls of martyres under the altar n Rev 6:9? This is after 5th seal is opened. If the dead rise 1st, why are they not n resurrected bodies? These are martyres from 1st century til great trib saints in Rev 7. There is no pretrib rapture, Jesus returns once more, at the end, the last day is when we will be raised. John 6:39,40,44&54. PeaceB2All
Check this out: At the end of the tribulation, Jesus has to come back and save the day, because even a moment later, we would all kill ourselves, and when he comes back, he will resurrect all humans from all generations EVER to meet him as he comes down. Along with them, the 144,000 and the great multitude who are still alive. The problem is people think after people die the go to heaven. Not so, they stay in the grave till Christ comes the 2nd time, THEN meet him in the air as a whole.
Sir, you have no proof for pretribulationism.
Rev. 3:10 is your answer
Joshua B that’s the 144k
Joshua B The second half of the tribulation is the bowls...
The seals are the birthpains.
The 144k are gathered and sealed to be resurrected (Isaiah 35, Matthew 24:31-6th Seal)
So you don't believe in a blessed hope that Paul speaks of, therefore you are misled