ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- DDay in Sainte-Mère-Église - What really happened?
With Marty Morgan
More Airborne Forces content on WW2TV
• Airborne Forces
If you like this video please consider leaving us a thank you donation. To the right of the up and down thumbs and share button is the heart shaped Thanks button - it helps us to keep on producing content.
Following his hugely popular debut in December, Marty Morgan joins us once again to talk about the events immortalised in The Longest Day Film.
Marty and I will look at the accounts of everyone who was in the square that fateful June 5th/6th night, in an attempt to make sense of the chaos. We will address the layout of the square, the bell tower, who could see what? who was where? and where the different stories started?
The most frequently told story of the DDay landings will be rigorously analysed and you're all welcome to join us.
Marty's Graignes show • Graignes, Normandy 194...
The Cornelius Ryan archives can be accessed here media.library....
Other DDay shows on WW2TV
Hedgerows - the Normandy Bocage • Hedgerows - the Norman...
Obstacle Clearance on DDay • Obstacle Clearance on ...
DDay in Sainte-Mère-Église - What really happened? • DDay in Sainte-Mère-Ég...
6th Airborne - Pegasus Bridge • 6th Airborne - Pegasu...
Eisenhower's Leadership - Supreme Commander on DDay • Eisenhower's Leadershi...
Angels of Mercy - Angoville au Plain • Angels of Mercy - Ango...
DDay Vanguard: • DDay Vanguard: The Tru...
The Radar War Before DDay - RAF Typhoons in action • The Radar War Before D...
Panzers - German Armoured Units in Normandy on D-Day • Panzers - German Armou...
Jimmy Monteith - The F1 Draw on DDay (Omaha Beach) • DDay - Jimmy Monteith ...
The Longest Day book:
UK Hardback uk.bookshop.or...
UK Paperback uk.bookshop.or...
US bookshop.org/a...
You can become a TH-cam Member and support us here / @ww2tv
You can become a Patron here / ww2tv
Please click subscribe for updates also "like" the video - it really helps!
Social Media links -
/ ww2tv
/ ww2tv
/ ww2tv
WW2TV Merchandise teespring.com/...
WW2TV Bookshop - where you can purchase copies of books featured in my TH-cam shows. Any book listed here comes with the personal recommendation of Paul Woodadge, the host of WW2TV. For full disclosure, if you do buy a book through a link from this page WW2TV will earn a commission.
UK - uk.bookshop.or...
USA - bookshop.org/s...
I met John Steele when I was a kid in the early sixties. My Dad was serving in the 82nd and was a friend of Steele. When meeting him my Dad told me that Mr.Steele was the paratrooper that hung from the church steeple in the "Longest Day".
When did you meet Mr. Steele?
@@climatedeceptionnetwork4122 I met Mr. Steele around 1964. My dad knew him and introduced him as the " paratrooper hanging from the church steeple in the movie The Longest Day."
After the Longest Day movie came out, I have a memory of John Steele being on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson.
Gentlemen, THANK YOU!! I was born in Holland in 1950 and my mom's Birthday was on June 6th and I think she started telling me about D Day before I opened my eyes! So, I saw the movie when it came out in 1964 and I read the Cornelis Ryan's book. Till I saw you guys, I did believe the John Steele story even though, I did question for a long time, how did he come down? I served in the Dutch army so Military strategic is not strange to me. But my interest in D-Day inflamed when I visited South Devon and learned about Slapton Sands in 1976. What was it? 400 to 700 people died for nothing there were no U boats, the Canal was cold and rough and I heard that anybody saying anything they saw would be court martialed and shot. NOBODY was talking about it! There it was that I started digging deeper. Well, what I found was that historians report how they see the events. They report that it happened they do not report how and what happened. I have questions about Point Du Hoc, Lt. Colonel Rudder. I talked extensively to Gary Stern, BATTERY DE MAISY, who obviously disliked Rudder. But why was that Battery buried? Same with Market Garden, my parents were in the resistance. I heard all my life that the Dutch resistance warned Montgomery that there was an Eastern Front SS Division taking a break in Arnhem, which was wiped off the table by Montgomery, Don't even let me start on the Bastogne disaster or Huertgen Forest. Having walked around with full gear on my back, I will tell you that what you are not saying about the Church incident in Normandy, but what you are thinking, the John Steele Story doesn't add up and is Bullshit. I think private Ryan and BoB are great series/movie but it is ridiculous to think that 16 guys won the war while about 16,000 paratroopers landed that day. What about the battle at La Fiere by the 82nd AB? The crossing of the river Waal in Holland by the 82nd AB? So, no, you are far from disrespecting veterans but the truth must be heard and THANK YOU for doing that. I experienced many bad officers in the Dutch army, therefore it is easy to say, there were a lot of misfits leading the soldiers straight to their dead. Talking about movies, A MIDNIGHT CLEAR, tells me what could happen as NO soldier wants to lose his life and most of the time is just shitting his pants and his brain gets haywired. Just my opinion. I would like to hear you talk about the Point du Hoc disaster. Why didn't they land on Utah (as they did) and walked to it meeting up with the AB that was in the vicinity? Allied command knew there were no cannons. Anyway, thanks again, I loved every minute of this show. Don't forget, as Covid 19 has told us, people are paranoid, like to dwell in hysteria and surprisingly, most of them follow the lying leaders. I don't get it. You??
I was privileged to take the "Band of Brothers" tour in 2010 w/ Ron Drez and Kevin Hymel. It was one of the 10 best things I've ever done for myself.
I have video of Drez's description of the John Steele-Ken Russell-John Ray encounter, and that's the story I've been trying to "re-tell" since then. Ron told the story of John Ray's widow at her first husband's grave, and there wasn't a dry eye in the house. I had trouble holding on to my video camera.
My Dad took my brother and me to see "The Longest Day" in 1962. I was 9 years old. Since then, I must've watched it 10 times more. Every time I watch it, I grow more skeptical of the actual events of 6/6/44.
We hear things from learned experts, and we take them as gospel truth. Your podcast sheds a pretty bright light on the life of a guide, and what his/her tourists (guide-ees?) EXPECT to hear. In many cases, there could be a big difference between what tourists - movie goers - wish to see and hear, and what actually happened. Add to that the fact that there are few "facts" connected with any small unit actions. And Hollywood scriptwriters and directors further muddy the waters.
I've always believed that history should be studied "in the moment." In other words, the student should never know (or should suspend his/her knowledge of) what comes next. It makes events more real, and better remembered.
For those of us who have been reading about WWII for 40+ years, this is difficult. However, the small unit, minor encounters on the battlefield, not generally found in books, can be studied, re-read, re-analyzed, and turned over and over until something resembling the truth emerges. This is what you and Mr. Morgan accomplished in your podcast. Brilliantly.
Visiting these sites makes all the difference. I have been blessed to have been able to visit Normandy four times since 2010, and I'm headed back there in September. Your podcast will make me measure carefully everything I see and hear. Everyone who travels with a guide should listen carefully - precisely - to what is being described, and should remember what they see in great detail. This is difficult because the battle sites, especially the beaches at Normandy, are so completely overwhelming for first-time, and fourth-time visitors. A narrow vision is essential.
Thank you and Mr. Morgan, for a very enlightening, highly detailed account of what might have happened the morning of 6/6/44, if it happened at all (I believe it did).
I apologize for such a long winded response, but this has been on my mind since before your podcast.
You have my very best wishes!
Thank you
I'm watching "The Bedford Boys" podcast in installments (time restraints) w/ Alex Kershaw. I must go back to my "Band of Brothers" tour in 2010. We stood at Dog Green, where they landed. I would never have heard of the Bedford Boys were it not for Ron Drez. I read some more, including Kershaw's moving account of the tragedy. I was able to visit the National D-Day Memorial briefly quite a few years ago. I returned again and again. Since then, I have become friends with the principals at the Memorial. I am an ardent supporter of the National D-Day Memorial. It is one of the most beautiful, meaningful, moving memorials of all the WWII sites in the U.S. I was honored to be in attendance at the 75th Anniversary of D-Day in 2019, along with more than 100 WWII Veterans and 12,000 others. I urge anyone who reads this to visit their website: www.dday.org.
I have met Alex Kershaw several times at the Conference / Symposium at the WWII Museum in New Orleans. Alex is one of the most passionate of all the WWII historians / writers. His ability to reduce the "Big Picture" to individual, personal accounts of bravery and sacrifice brings the war into the reader's lap and heart.
I read "The Bedford Boys" once a year. I manage to visit the Memorial several times a year. It's a seven-hour drive, but well worth the time. The Memorial is a touchstone for every amateur WWII historian, and deserves their support.
I could listen to these guys talk all night. I will NEVER tire of the unending efforts of truly great historians to unearth the facts that will lead to a fuller understanding of the most famous event of the 20th century. I am greatly disheartened to hear that some have taken historians like Paul and Marty to task for their refusal to just blindly accept the "history" that has been handed down to them. We who are attempting to understand what really happened in those tumultuous times owe this generation of historians a huge debt of gratitude for their refusal to just parrot the party lines with respect to so much of the history of WWII. The show you guys did about Graignes truly rocked a small part of my world when Marty revealed all he has come to learn since his wonderful participation in the "Down To Earth" book and documentary. It is sad beyond words that his unending search for the truth was not embraced by the families of so many of those heroic members of the 507th. It is my fervent hope that the future will be kinder to these tireless sleuths as they dig further into the story of WWII. Keep up the GREAT work fellas!
Not sure how it wasn’t until relatively recently that I found your channel, but I can't begin to explain how much I enjoy these chats. After a little over 2 years of living in Caen, I thought I had a good grasp of all the common narratives regarding D-Day and was getting somewhat discouraged because I no longer found a sense of excitement that’s often associated with visiting a site for the first time or even re-visiting a site after learning a new fact or story associated with it. However, these chats have introduced me to a plethora of new content and challenged a lot of what I already knew. Heading back to Sainte-Mère-Église and La Fière later this week with a fresh perspective.
Thanks for the nice words. We are starting a Normandy myths series soon
I feel your pain. A few times a Veteran has presented me with an artifact/souvenir and the story...sort of learned to nod and smile even if there is no chance it is correct. My admiration goes to the Veteran that says... I loaded drums in C47s in Burma for the war. They can have some great stories.
Fascinating program. Love the detail of it all and the issues raised, and the conversational exploration & analysis between Paul and Marty.
Bro, im so happy i found your channel . As a history buff of world war 2 you guys are the best . If i every have enough money to make it to Normandy i would give it all to you to show me these sites
Thanks a lot, please tell your friends about us, and consider becoming a Patron or channel member
The only thing I know for certain after this is: Frankie likes to go out when he’s in and come in when he’s out. He also likes his water.
Great show! I respect and appreciate what you all are doing and I want to know more. I subscribed to your channel but have a lot of catching up to do. I’ve been impressed with every guest that I have listened to to date. And I was more than happy to be able to become a patron so that you can continue to educate those who want to know the truth. The more that I read about WWII the more I excited I become to learn more. I’m looking forward to your Point de Hoc podcast. I just purchased all of the books that you recommended. Please keep doing what you do and know that you guys ate making an impact on others.
Catching up on some older shows. Great stuff as always.
Same here! :)
What an amazing conversation. Thanks for your thoughts on this topic. I was nodding my head in agreement throughout the entire discussion.
Another great conversation about D-Day. It's very interesting how the fog of war can create these enduring myths. Was in St. Mere Eglise for the 75th remembrance events, a trip that will stay with me til my dying day. It speaks volumes about our time when people get their information from movies rather than books and guides like yourselves.
Two years later, this is still fascinating.
Fantastic job. I also really liked your video on Granies. As an 82nd Airborne veteran I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE to see you guys talk about La Fier and all the other things that you guys think are important. That will hopefully tide me over until things aren't locked down and I can get on your tour. Thanks again for doing these detailed videos!
We will be doing some La Fiere shows in June when the weather gets better
@@WW2TV Can't wait to see it! I hope you do it similar to your Carentan Purple Heart lane show. I hope you add DeGlopper's story to it.
Thank you for this wonderful show. Please do more with Marty.
I also saw Howard Manoian back then. Howard had lied about his D-Day past because he hadn't landed in the St mere Eglise cemetery at all, but in reality he was behind the lines of Utah beach with the 33rd Chemical Decontamination Company.
I only just found this video and was interested by the discussion, whilst watching I remembered a documentary by CBS broadcast in 1964 to commemorate D-Day 6 June 1944. The programme was called “D-Day plus 20 years - Eisenhower Returns to Normandy”. Walter Cronkite (CBS Broadcaster) visited Normandy with Dwight Eisenhower. During their travels through Normandy they visited Sainte-Mère-Église and Eisenhower had a conversation with the wife of the Mayor of the town who was at Sainte-Mère-Église the night of the Airborne attack, which she confirms John Steele was hanging from the steeple for hours playing dead, also there was fires in the town, there were two German “snipers” in the tower, and further there was actually three other parachutes other than Steele’s caught on the church but none of them had any parachutists still attached. If you haven’t seen the documentary it is well worth watching it’s on TH-cam. The video you produced was made years ago so what I commented might no longer be relevant but I noticed no one mentioned it in the comments so for their interest in Normandy I posted the reply.
Dennis
I've seen the documentary, and one of my questions is why did Madame Renaud not mention Steele before the 60s?
The question is when does evidence become relevant if 3 or 4 people saw Steele hanging from the tower and there is no photographic proof you have to go on the evidence given by the people that were actually there? And as for her not mentioning Steele before 1960 was she ever asked, why would she lie to Eisenhower who she obviously respected! And Sainte-Mère-Église wasn’t a topic until the films release in 1962 so why would she mention Steele before 1960. One thing I remembered from your video was that Steele never mentioned how he got down from the tower, well he actually did in a telephone conversation with Cornelius Ryan who took notes "the Germans took him down"; "taken down from the church at 3 in the morning, put in a truck”... Note the word "down" not pulled through the belfry window so he was lowered on a rope. There are a few other small points about your video but they are minor which doesn’t detract from your excellent YT channel.
Dennis
Maybe she thought she had seen Steele on the roof, but when it comes to the Renauds, their honesty can be questioned generally. I cannot go in to details here, but they were quick to align themselves to the allies. Ultimately we can all believe what we want about Steele and as we said, I cannot say he didn't land on the roof, but the story does not take much examination to come up full of holes
Doing Living History covering E co 2/505th PIR, 82nd abn, absolutely loved watching this. You were all very respectful. I’ve now subscribed to your channel. Looking forward to watching your other stuff. Thanks.
Thanks Chris, welcome to the gang. Please also consider becoming a Patron
I was made aware of your channel when talking to a 82nd re- enactor in the Aces High in St Mete Eglise about three hours ago. We were wondering on which side of the church he landed. Now this story is even more interesting. Since you mention La Fiere, I jumped there last Sunday from a C-47. Not the first time but always exiting. Looking fwd to watching more on your channel. Will dig deeper when I get back home.
Cheers
Uwe
Absolutely fabulous show. So many issues raised! Memory, people trying to make a life after war, expectations...
thought provoking show guys...well done!
Thanks Tony, I hope you have subscribed to the channel for more
Dear Paul, I am slowly watching through all of your older videos (while trying to watch live as many of the current ones), and it is just amazing what you are doing. You are about to create a WWII Encyclopedia on TH-cam.
Regarding this particular video: I am so thankful for your and Martin's insights. I only knew the movie version (which is also mentioned in Antony Beevor's book) and didn't know the dubious background of the story. But in fact I always asked myself, how the paratrooper got down from the church. Now I can rest my mind... 😄
Keep up the excellent work, best greetings, Peter
You are very welcome Peter
Really enjoyed the discussion. In no manner did I think either of you was disrespecting or dishonoring veterans. I really enjoy Martin and his work on the History Channel. I am interested in the war in Europe as Dad was a tanker there. The more I learn the more I wish I had known the right questions to ask when I had the opportunity. Great work on this series!
Well, I downloaded 9,000 pages plus of after actions reports for the 82nd at Normandy. It was cheap so I will go through them all and hope they are legit. I will begin my search for my cousin there and with the 507th book I just bought.
Thanks both, just catching up. Fantastic stuff yet again.
That was good! Reccomend to anyone who has been to Normandy / read or seen the "The Longest Day".
Great talk yet again, many thanks to you both.
It's not too surprising that different accounts differ a bit. Happens all the time to law enforcement investigators.
Gentlemen, this is such a wonderful discussion and exploration of an iconic event in a sardonic war. And I so appreciate the detailed description of the finer points of this story. It is not over-examination or excessive analysis in my opinion. What younger folks need to understand is this: the clock is ticking and has already expired on almost all of the primary actors in the actual event. We are now only left with what little recorded conversation or correspondence is left to us by those who heard the story second-hand at best. So I love the attention to detail and the courage to seek the reality and attempt to uncover the "truth" of the night in St Eglise. Carry on gentlemen. This is worthy of your effort and I appreciate your work.
Thank you Joel
If John Steele was actually hanging of the bell tower, the only way down was if he had a reserve chute, opening and lowering and then climbing down the reserve chute risers and strings. This would put him about 30 feet off the ground. Which still put him roughly three standard stories high. No way he jumps and not break something.
I've just returned from Sainte-Mere-Englise. "If" Where he was. He would have dropped onto a sloping roof then down to another then onto the ground. It's possible.
I think your closing comments on 'the hook' are very relevant. Myself, I was obviously drawn to the narrative of Steele hanging from the church. That in itself derives solely from the movie. This episode helps to disgorge the hook, and therefore look into greater depth the substance behind the 'catch'.
Well done, great guest and informative broadcast.
Sorry for the late comment but thanks again for another great discussion. I always learn so much and pass it on. Thanks Paul and Marty
Very welcome
I visited there when on a tour of Normandy (my regimental forebears took Pegasus bridge) 1st battalion RGJ. l always wondered how he got down from the bell tower. Great show. I listen to your programme while building models for my channel. Your Rifle Brigade (my battalion 3 RGJ) programmes were amazing. Well done,all.
WOW! What an excellent presentation! Woody, you and Marty are two of the most knowledgable and excellent Normandy historians on earth and even you both worked hard to finally deal with one of the greatest myths/legends/"facts?" of D-Day. As a kid I always assumed this incident happended as my only source was the movie. Years later in my age and cyniscm I assumed the incident was pure Holywood, especially after properly researching other elements like what really happened Pte Du Hoc. That was until my arrival in St Marie Eglise and saw the mannequin on the Church...I remember saying to my wife "holy shit Red Buttons really happended! Now thanks to you two excellent historians the full nuance of this saga is understood. As always excellent work!!!
My favorite memory study: The day of the Challenger disaster, freshmen at a university were asked where they were when they heard the news. Those that were still at the university as seniors were asked again where they were. Most gave different answers. Memory appears to be rewritten as it is recalled. The recall of an experience is itself an experience. What you remember about the original event is altered by subsequent recall. We don't remember a specific moment in time. Our memory of an event is a continuous and changing thing. Which sounds bad, but it's really not. Memory evolved to help you reproduce, not to preserve a true history of the past. Memory does not exist in the past, it is happening now.
I remember watching the Longest Day as a kid and wondering whether that was true. Being a cynical New Yorker I question 🙋🏾♂️ everything. With that said like the rest of life I take all stories with a grain of salt 🧂. God Bless all those boys who gave there lives that day so we can have this discussion today. In what’s left of a free world 🌎 🙏🏼
Eats me up inside that the debt of gratitude owed to these boys who became men in an instant be lost to history
My Uncle Charles P. Blankenship was killed when he landed in the burning building
Wonderful show, gentlemen. I appreciate your passion for teaching us about these amazing events and people. I have been fortunate to have spent a week in Normandy on two occasions (2016 and 2018). What was interesting to me was some information I found regarding St Mere from the book “Fighting F Company” and it’s accounts of 506th troopers being miss dropped into the square and areas around before the 505th. Of course we are aware of Earl McClung and his spot, but more so the likes Rhodes, Davis, Aebischer and all. I find it very interesting on how it seems as if the 505th dropping in soon after may have saved 1-2 of their lives (Rhodes in particular).
Anyway - to me, it brings an interesting twist. I am not so hung up on the Steele issue, although I must admit the Ken Russell and John Ray stories definitely grab my attention.
On a side note - I have met the owner of the restaurant in town (Cauquigny). We spoke outside his place on a few occasions. The last time we spoke he told us that apparently John Steele was taken to his home and kept there for at least some amount of time. I assume as POW. (For whatever that’s worth).
I have found the French of the Norman countryside to be kind and welcoming people. We’ve had folks invite us into their home to show us parachutes and such (Baudienville). I also recall when the locals in the restaurant stopped eating to applaud as my friend wrote his dad’s name on the Cork wall of remembrance honoring dday veterans inside the restaurant. I love that region and look forward to returning soon.
To me, I try and keep big picture, that many of these men had the misfortune of falling into a square at the worst possible timing. Many of whom sacrificed their lives before even getting a chance.
Regards,
It's highly likely this type of frustration is universally shared by professional historians / tour guides in all "genres" of history and always will be. I'm reminded of my trip to the Gettysburg battlefield a few years ago. I took the most in depth tour they had to offer where I had one of the park rangers as my own personal guide. Included with all of his passion and detail the ranger could not help but express his frustration with how many tourists, year after year, just want to see the spot on Little Round Top where Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain and the 20th Maine were at and why that story has also become problematic to Civil War historians over the years.
You and Marty should co-author a book entitled What Historians and Movies Got Wrong
My initial exposure to WW2 literature was in the early 70's I started with the Colditz story and Longest Day when I was 7/8. I now know that Colditz experience was not exactly the boys own adventure written by Pat Reid and D-Day was far more complex than the entertaining story told by Ryan. Nor for that matter the Desert War the story told by Moorhead or Wilmot. I am so glad that at the end you presented "faint praise" for the story telling abilities of Ryan. I enjoyed his writing, it entertained me. Most individual reminiscences of individual actions are inaccurate, really I don't worry about it. The actions were not critical to the overall outcome of the battle. The gist of the story (that paratroops landed in many inconvenient places) is what is important and the use of eye witness examples to illustrate this is part of the story tellers art.
I slept in "Auberge John Steel" in St Mere Eglise.
Really interesting show., Please do those other places of historical importance. Much appreciated keep them coming..
Yep, we will. Maybe Pointe du Hoc next
I think part of the issue to that might explain some of the conflicting stories is a lot of these personal accounts are coming from people trying to remember specific events that were occurring during high stress in the heat of a battle moments. If it were me I would probably have a hard time remembering exact details of a guy hanging from a tower when I’m to busy trying not to get killed by a German soldier shooting at me as I’m landing in a German infested town, or vice versa paratroopers landing all over the place. I think there is truth to many of the accounts but specific details get jumbled up in the confusion and can paint a confusing picture. This goes not just for John Steele but also the other errors found in the longest day as well with other scenarios presented in the movie.
As for the Longest day it’s what got me obsessed with DDay and ww2 in general as a kid, I remember first watching it when I was 5 when my dad showed it to me and it started my fascination with DDay and the military in general, now I’m 25 I still have the bug haha.
Please do a stream on Carentan and the ways that the 506th 502nd and so on took! I was hooked years ago when Brothers in Arms Earned in Blood and Road to Hill 30 came out. They said that they went to Normandy and modelled the game almost 1:1 after the exact way that some Paratroopers took back in 1944. It would be soo cool to have some of your friends out with the live camera and you at home with a hot chocolate and maps and knowledge to what actually happened there. I wish there were more photos to Carentan. It totally fascinates me! I even got the latest books from D-Day publ. - still waiting for Vol 3 !- and just cant get enough.... I have soo many books on the subject and am still thirsty as a dog after a long walk. :) Thanks for all the Videos! Its very informative and I am so looking forward to the Dieppe part 2 since no 1 was so captivating! Greetings from Germany - Max
We've done both. Here's our 502nd show: th-cam.com/video/1l16TDSjRfs/w-d-xo.html
Here's our 506th show
th-cam.com/video/w_I29ev-sFQ/w-d-xo.html
@@WW2TV OMG you are genius! I will watch it in the next days. Thank you! Thats such great work you do. I already started planning new dioramas to build just because of your streams and all the inspiration you gave me with that. Also you fill gaps of knowledge I did not know were there :D
Glad you liked them, and please consider becoming a Patron of WW2TV, Just a couple of quid a month helps me enormously
Thank you so much for your work,especially pointing out what we know and don't, and why.
Even if I had a detailled account directly from somebody who jumped at night after flak,then had to run about in a foreign country being shot at for quite a while, I would assume a certain magin of error.
I was a member of a platoon of 9th Infantry soldiers operating in the Mekong Delta during the Vietnam War. At one point we were ambushed as we went into the woodline on Toi Son Island. This very minor engagement cannot in any way be compare with the enormity of anything that happened during the Normandy invasion. However, it does serve a point that, I believe, you and your guest speaker are over looking in your analysis of the accuracy of the live eye witness accounts of what happened in Saint-Mere-Eglise. Since the personal accounts seem to "not fit" or contradict a certain "story line" yall leave the impression that the prevailing story line is false. This may be true, or, it may not. Let me explain. My platoon had a reunion some 10-15 years after the Vietnam War was over. During this reunion my buddies and I were discussing or re-hashing the time we spent together. As I was explaining about what happened on Toi Son, I made the statement that I was the last person in the column that went into the woodline. At that point, 5 other guys spoke up and said, " no you weren't the last guy, I was". Each of us will swear we were the last. All of our accounts differed in several aspects of the story. My point is: My experience was so minor. The boys telling the stories of D-Day had so much more going on that each saw the same thing from different perspectives. So I believe yall are barking up the wrong tree in your analysis. Who knows the actual truth as to what happened. Maybe it is all true. Sincerely TC I really love your channel. Thank you
Of course, and that's what we said, none of the accounts match
Bill Gaurnere from the 101st told me he came down right behind that church. We were sitting in his living room in South Philly 2010. He had lost all his weapons in the jump the leg bag his Thompson, everything but his knife. He picked up a German weapon and to his great consternation he started drawing U.S. fire from from other Americans.... he tossed it asap.
Bill didn't pick up a German weapon until sometime later after the wagon ambush
He told me different in his living room ....
@@DanielMulloy-bg6gw I'm sure he did. Bill told various versions of many of his stories. It's how memory works. Bill was a great friend but his recollections were not perfect
This is disturbing. I'm learning that some of the histories I read are quoting questionable sources or not citing their quotes at all and may be spreading myths under the guise of legitimate history. I am reading 'Four Stars of Valor: The Combat History of the 505th...' and he quotes Steele from a 1969 newspaper article saying that his chute caught on the steeple. I have been dubious about so many books quoting long conversations in detail when I can't remember what I said last week. Very disturbing indeed.
In regarding to several posts on this message line about no one seeing the parachute on the church… in the book, no better place to die, one of the soldiers says that when he repositioned into the area by the church, he observed the parachute still hanging from the church steeple
But when was that interview conducted? Various parties said similar, but did they do so before the Steele story was part of the movie?
In the book “No Better Place To Die” Colonel Spencer Worst noted that he was wounded at the cemetery and observed Steels parachute still hanging from the top of the Church spire. Also in the book a German soldier said he was in the bell tower and tried to cut Steels risers as he was hanging from the church. The mayor described the positions of the dead parachutists, Including the one that fell into the burning house. He also saw Steels chute on the church top.
@@WW2TV it’s not simply a small detail… It’s a huge detail, did you see Steel or perhaps his parachute on the roof? Nobody forgets that, and nobody would make that up if they were there simply because they saw a movie. The German in the Belltower makes self deprecating statements when he says that he and the other soldier tried to cut him down but failed. Another eye witness is a Colonel and a Mayor. You have no one at all who can discount them. Big Red was part of Steels mortar team, would have jumped next to him in his stick and died killing the german trying to shoot him. You don’t even mention these witnesses.
I have No Better Place to Die and Descending From The Clouds, and in fact knew both Murphy and Wurst. Questions and comments for you:
1 Why did Mayor Renaud not mention the paratrooper on the church in his first accounts written in the 50s? Why did it only become part of the story after the movie?
2 Read the beginning of Wurst's book again - he actually admits that memory is faulty. When he came to write the book, was the Steele story already accepted as history? How can we be certain he actually remembered seeing a parachute on the church or only thought he saw one?
3 Ask any copy of lawyer you know about the accuracy of eye-witness accounts. There are even studies online you can read.
4 In terms of physical evidence. The biggest as-yet unsolved problem is how any Germans in the tower would have got Steel up into the tower and down again. Have you been in the tower and looked at the spaces and angles?
5 Why is the parachute not in the aerial photos taken later in the day? If it had already been taken down, by who and how?
6 I don't understand your last point about men in Steele's stick who died in the square. If they died how can they be eye-witnesses?
My final point is, we cannot state Steele did not land on the church, all we are saying is that there is very little CREDIBLE evidence that he did. Again, I urge you to look at studies about eye-witnesses. When a lot of the veterans who wrote about the town did so, the Steele story was canon. They could easily have misremembered what they saw because of the powerful imagery of the Longest Day film
Another great episode.
I would also argue that if there was a canopy still hung up on the bell tower on June 6th, the photographer who "staged" the photo of the two paratroopers in front of the church would have taken a shot of that as well or tried to incorporate it into his photo.
As an amateur photographer, that's what I would have done, if I had come across a parachute draped over the building.
Perhaps it's possible that Steele had heard of Joe Beyrle's experience of sliding down the church roof at St.Come du Mont, and he used that as a template for his story? Just a thought.
All possibilites, and maybe we'll never know for sure what happened
Deploy the reserve and climb down its suspension lines.
It would have been interesting to hear your personal opinions (your opinion as a person, not as a historian)
Do you think Steele really hung on that bell tower with his parachute ?
No I don't think he did
Great show. What about doing a show on how The Band of Brothers and Saving Private Ryan did for tourism in Normandy
I've never understood why people take movies and TV programs as anything other than entertainment? I enjoyed The Longest Day but a paratrooper as old as John Wayne? As for the movie Patton loved it - but not as history. Great stuff from Marty and yourself Woody @WW2TV
At 12:40, what you're saying, basically, is the line from Liberty Valence. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend. I prefer facts as they occurred. Thanks for this video.
My Uncle was from the 82nd Airborne 505th 3rd PIR H Co. He did all 4 jumps. Ste. Mere Eglise. I have documents he gave me from Top secret missions with stories attached. He was part of H-Minus. I have more questions everytime I Iook at all these letters, papers etc. that I have.
Thank you for your video.
Luckily there are plenty of books about the 505th to help you. Do you have Philip Nordyke's books?
@@WW2TV I have quite a few books. Ready: The World War II- History of the 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, Combat Jump, and others. I have them in special boxes. I get really into it and then I let it go. The majority of the men and even a woman was in the military. My dad was in ww2 13th Airforce but I haven't found a lot about his unit except for the pictures, military papers, and newspaper clippings. It's like putting a giant puzzle together on each one. Anyways thank you for responding. I'll see if I have the book you recommended.
Re your comments at the end about people wanting more: I am still wanting a video on Timmes' Orchard or La Poterie Ridge. I would be surprised if that ever happens. LOL
I would love to hear about the Battle of Solerno. My father was on the USS Savannah that was hit off the coast of Solerno in September 1943.
We will be covering Salerno next year, but we also have an Operation Husky series coming this July
When John Steele hanging from the church was mentioned, my Father snorted and then said nothing! Also, according to Juliette Brault, she and her sisters and parents ran out of their houses, they hid in ditches in the fields as their buildings were being shelled and therefore were not safe. Paratroopers hanging in trees comment...maybe you should interview the lady doctor of StME about her experience of giving birth to her son.
Perhaps I missed something here, but if Steele was wounded when he allegedly landed on the church, would there not be a record of him being awarded a Purple Heart for that?
It may not have been enough of a wound to be recorded
The two paras could have slammed into and slid down the church...moot point. I am grateful to everyone who took part including my previously mentioned foster parents (Ray & Greta) who gave us the freedoms I and you have enjoyed and benefited from.
Additionally , I believe the intensity, horror, fright, loudness, etc were greater than any of them had ever experienced. The FOG of war is a real thing. So whether Tex and others cited left something out of their survey, or didn't get an event in correct chronological order, or remembered something in better detail later, it doesn't make his account more or less valid. Hopefully Martin can find other sources that will be more accurate in his attempt verify this critical history timeline. Thank you
I think we'd be much more understanding of film makers if they were interviewed by you just like the Masters of the Air people. If they could just explain to us why they took the liberties they took we would probably be more empathetic. One of the blessings of the internet.
Great conversation, one of the most interesting videos I have ever seen on TH-cam. Just one thought: you both claim that private Steele would fall to his death or would be seriously injured if he would cut the lines of his parachute to free himself. Would he though? Because on your way down from the steeple, you’d first encounter the roof of the church. The bell tower is completely surrounded by the roof, which could be used to work your way down pretty “safely”. Or others (Germans) could use the roof and a ladder to reach out to the American. IF private Steele was indeed (briefly) stuck on the steeple, that’s how I imagine he got down.
The thing is, Steele said he came in through the tower. If he had landed on the tower and got down on the outside as you suggest, why wouldn't he have said so?
They oughta take red buttons Oscar away!!
At about the 6.30 point Morgan mentions the John Ashley story.
What was that?
www.tracesofwar.com/persons/28971/Atchley-John-E.htm
Thank you
Great discussion. I had read of the stick of F Company 506th landed in the square. Was this before the 82nd jumped? Would the germans have been on full alert by then? All the people there and no one seen a paratrooper hanging from the tower from the ground. Fog of war or fantasy? Guess we will never get the definitive answer.
The 506th were earlier yes
Maybe he should have asked the people of the town as well.
We have, and the recollections of Steele seem to begin AFTER the film
@WW2TV I realized that after watching the program. Great job, both of you.
This made me start to look at accounts etc. I read on the Normandy American Heroes blog. That Steele got a call from Ryan and discussed it and that he was cut down by the Germans (l wonder how?) And that there was another soldier caught on the roof Keneth Russell and that he saw someone else on the tower (Steele?) Any thoughts?
What action did John Steele get awarded his bronze star? this was a great episode well done to you both.
It may have been a unit Bronze star rather than personal award
Thank you Woody
I watched that series World War II in HD.
It should also me remembered that both the story teller and an incident gets bigger, badder, and more dangerous with time so the truth get so "stretched" that it is nothing close to reality. That is why one should totally ignore war stories told by the hero.
Now I'm left wondering if the house on the square was actually on fire. I've read conflicting reports. Lt. Col. Cassidy, who missdropped near the town, said he saw a balzing building and of course we all know the scene from Longest Day. Yet I've also read a report from 82nd soldiers who entered the town at night and said it was complete darkness. What do you think Woody?
The fire was definitely real
@@WW2TV thanks for the quick answer!
In war, truth is the first casualty. Aeschylus Greek tragic dramatist (525 BC - 456 BC)
The Longest Day was full of fiction - the 'Rupert's were bundles of straw stuffed into uniforms (not lifelike dummies), I doubt anyone got shot for mistaking a Mauser bolt click for a cricket, and the Omaha scenes looked like an army training exercise on a budget. Having loved ut as a kid I ended up thinking it was 'war porn' as it made the horror of what happened that day look like a fun game of cowboys and indians. Having said that, the single take-tracking shot of the Ouistreham battle was awesome cinema and the Eisenhower actor was a dead ringer/
It's a real curate's egg that's for sure. Some scenes and vignettes are very close to reality, others are just silly
I think we humans love a good story. But we should train ourselves to love truth even more ,even if it's not as grandiose or flattering. I rather now the real story than the fictional story. We know that human memory is flawed in many ways. People shouldn't feel threatened by people like you challenging even the established or public collective memory.
My wife's grand uncle was a bombaimer on Lancaster bomber. He died during operation Search Lamp I think its called. The nightbombing on the eve to D-day. They got shot down and killed on the return back to base. When we learned that the bombings pretty much failed and not as the family story returning after a successful bombing run it didn't detract anything. They did the best they could in a horrific situation most of us cannot even imagine. We rather know the truth than make a martyrs tale.
Well Marty as CMP employee you know we love you like family, but we are all afraid the next words out of your mouth are going to be. “FRANKIE STOP BREATHING “”. He is not bothering us as viewers, but it’s funny to watch him bother you!! Hope we get to see you again one day in Anniston!!
53.14: yea well I seen that movie and I do remember saying to myself... HOW in the heckers is he going to get out of that one? (not that it isnt a possibility) BUT to come away unscathed or not dead is a question mark.
41:38 - has anyone considered on the scenario presented by Marty that perhaps Steele (wherever he snagged and got hung, if he did), opened up his reserve chute (as taught by his drills) and tried to climb down some of the way down (if the coast was clear) and then make a jump for it?
If that's what he did, then my question would be, why is that not the story he told?
It’s been stated that those chutes did not have reserves!
I’m pretty sure US chutes did have a reserve, however I don’t think the British paras had a reserve on their chutes
Does Marty know Tim smith, the historian for adams co PA ( Gettysburg) I think they would enjoy each other
Many paras saw the house on fire.Gus Patruno "F" 506 pulled on his risers to slip away from it.That what he told me.
We are not questioning the fire, of course that happened
Could you share the data talked about in video? Thank You
It's just a movie. It's storytelling so true some not so true
But museums and books also give incorrect history
John Rays grave lists his date of death as June 7, 1944 - not June 13 as was stated here.
The grave is wrong. We have the documents stating on died on 13th of gangrene
Well, just because he was from the Greatest Generation, and an elite soldier on D-day-
Doesn’t mean he wasn’t “padding his roll”.
What you need:
Is a soldier, with similar honors, could ever say that PFC Steele wasn’t telling the truth- and be done with it.
Maybe civilians or soldiers that hadn’t been there- don’t feel comfortable telling the god honest truth.
Well, as we said in the video, you can't disprove a negative. We cannot definitively say he didn't land on the church tower because there's no way of doing so, all we can do is state that there is very little credible evidence that he did
@@WW2TV
Dang- you were quick to respond!
Thanks for responding- at all.
I wasn’t expecting that!
BTW- you do some high octane stuff!
I’m a little giddy that you’re talking to me🤣👍🫡
Did any frenchmen were interviewed or offered any information about this issue?
Yes plenty of them, and most only seem to remember the parachute on the church after the movie came out
The movie was perfect for its time, the last of the big, WW2 movies. Having read the book, and working in pictures, I'm not surprised how the characters and action were cobbled together and compressed. Tho I like many John Wayne movies, he was all wrong for this part. But even worse, Red Buttons was frightfully, dreadfully, and irredeemably miscast. He was 42 or 43 at the time. His actions and the way he was singled out in the crowd and plane scenes are out of sync. OTH, I can't wait for my trip to Normandy next year for the 80th, with Ambrose tours. Cheers.
Joe Beyrle's book "Simple Sounds of Freedom" Read.
I have read it, and in fact I knew Joe Beyrle, what's that got to do with this video please? Joe landed in Saint Come du Mont, we are talking here about Sainte Mere Eglise.
Took the time to watch this deep dive on a story I have zero interest in, but this is an object lesson in how to do serious research and not believe everything you see in Hollywood movies. Interesting that most of the story seems to have been expanded on by Cornelius Ryan from Steele's 14-word testimony. I have many similar issues with Ryan's work on my specialist interest of MARKET GARDEN. I commend this video for anyone interested in how to ask the right questions.
Thanks Dave
watching this cause i play hell let loose
Who's disrespecting veterans here? The people trying to figure out what actually happened, OR the people that tunnel vision on fictionalized accounts at the expense of other stories? It's great that certain expressions of pop culture have brought more people interested in the academic side of it all, but one of the first things you are taught as a fledgling historian is that we do not take people on their word. Before you use a source you have to consider in what ways it could be unreliable. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good story...
They donot mention the little that i saw on TH-cam that "F" Co. 506 landed in St.Mere Eglise before the "82nd.Jumped.Read the book.
We absolutely are aware that F/506th and some E/506th landed in the square - both Marty and I knew some of the veterans. How does that affect the veracity of Steele's claim?
One would have to had been there to know
Robert murphy gave an account in his book!
Except there are inconsistencies of Murphy's book
Just as a matter of interest
Some American airborne officer wrote his account of
D.day operations titled
It's my war and I'll tell it my way
Could only be available in usa!
Can't recall the fellows name
He did an interview!
Bill Sefton
Thanks for reply have ordered
His book from usa!
Great
Dear Paul, I have just finished watching an interview with an 82nd Arborne Div veteran of the Sainte-Mere-Eglise jump (first out) and he states he looked up and saw John Steel hanging from the belltower. He landed in a greenhouse. TH-cam link: th-cam.com/video/FirZC60PiZI/w-d-xo.html
Thank you for the informative video from 2 well researched experts.
Yes, but when was the interview conducted? Lots of people who wouldn't even have been in a position to be able to see the church claimed to have seen the parachute hanging on the tower. It means very little.
I'm not positive but I think the account given by this veteran from the 82nd is a new or at least less widely known account pertaining to Sainte-Mere-Eglise. He just had a book come out last year (Whatever it took) that covers his full experience from Jumping into Normandy to his capture and escape from a POW camp.
th-cam.com/video/FirZC60PiZI/w-d-xo.html
Surly Steele would have mentioned this incident well before the questionnaire from Ryan if it was true it’s not something you would just dismiss as normal also surly someone has grilled him about the story ?
Possibly so, but if there are specific references to his landing there written down somewhere they have not surfaced. It's like the villagers of Sainte Mere Eglise, they seem to only mention the paratrooper on the church post Longest Day
Martin you are not trying to do any of that, in fact you do the complete opposite.
Hi doggies!
The French were fighting the fire.
Yes, some were