I really enjoyed creating this one. Let me know what you think - if you've bought a pair of AirPods Max, are you annoyed by this news, or excited about the future?
Hi Mark, me again. I think I was being over optimistic it seems like the article that I was reading (on the magazine stand inside Tesco) was about the possible advantages of the upcoming Bluetooth 5.2. Sorry, that's what happens when you're to much of a cheapskate to buy the magazine.
Not annoyed at all. Contrary to you, I‘m not really interested in lossless. I had nice Sennheiser/Beyerdynamic and B&O Headphones connected via a cable to a nice stereo (B&O for the last 20 yrs). Being 60+ I probably can‘t hear the difference and still I think that my AirPods Max sound better. And binaural on the AirPods Max (e.g. Taylor Swift‘s Long Pond Session, Bruce Springsteen‘s latest,. etc) to me really provide me with a WOW-experience in detail and clarity. I got the first binaural records (Sennheiser‘s Kunstkopf) in the late 70s, and longed to get more of this for a long time. I watched the Taylor Swift, Springsteen,… videos on and on, just to get the - for me - much better audio. My daughter - as an audio engineer - still likes the classic stereo mix better, but I don‘t. Might be because I‘m getting deaf, but still can hear the additional information transported through binaural …
Howdy Mark, I have just purchased the Airpods Max few days before the Apple announced the lossless audio streams... Looking at all the fuzz on the media about Airpods Max not being able to support the better formats of audio got me in to looking at what had iFixit posted wi their tear-downs of the headphones. Ok, so we know or think we know that the DAC is from Cirrus Logic. Let me put a statement that I do not know what chip exactly is in the Airpods Max cause there are no specs for that exact chip on line, but I was looking at what CL had available in similar package. It looks like this is 42 WLCSP package and it seems that all the offered chips support sample rate up to 384kHz. Some ICs are even rated as Master HiFi by CL. When Apple has released the Airpods Pro no one in the whole world could imagine that they would bump them to support Spatial Audio and I believe that Apple is going to drop the same bomb now with the Airpods Max. There is a 256MB flash chip on the board, I bet all of the flash is not used for firmware! Let's be optimistic here!
Same here, I bought the Airpods Max thinking I would mostly use it wired for music production with Apogee’s little Groove DAC. To my surprised quite a few music support Bluetooth audio with little latency!
Wow! I'm truly "a kid in a sweet shop" learning of all your media in the description above Mark. I feel a bit overwhelmed as a lot of these media formats are new to a "50-something" year old man like me. My heartiest congrats on launching 'Eight or Sixteen'. I love the presentation & content of your TH-cam videos. Rob is off to a winning start from your remark that we will like him. I'm going over now to listen to "If all we get is widgets..." Many thanks, man!
I'm a bit confused on why you don't think the AirPods Max won't support the new Apple Music Loseless format. I understand what you mean by the Bluetooth version, as that is limited, to a certain degree by the bandwidth. However, you could just plug your AirPods Max via lighting to 3.5 mm into your DAC and then you'd be just fine. As they work like any other pair of headphones at that point.
@@MarkEllisReviews Interesting. So, your saying (and not exact numbers or jargon here) if you are getting a 24 bit signal via Apple Music with the AirPods Max 3.5 mm to lighting DAC will down sample it to 16 bit instead? As I'd imagine hardware wise that they should be able to support high-def playback. So, if that's the case that's really interesting and a weird play by Apple.
@@ThomasMuehler I'm not sure what it samples it down to (or even if it does), but there's a DAC in the AirPods Max, and some kind of conversion going on inside that cable, too, so it's never going to be truly lossless :)
@@MarkEllisReviews I apologize for so many questions but don't get to talk tech stuff with too many people and looks like you've done some research. So, your saying it's not going to be truly lossless because it's going through multiple DAC's (headphones, cable, perhaps external DAC) and due to that you will be losing something each time it's converted? But wouldn't the same thing be happening any time you go through an DAC like any other headphones? Or are you saying that because it's doing that multiple times that's where the loss comes from?
@@ThomasMuehler You've got it in one. When a lossless file passes through my headphone amp directly into my Sennheiser headphones, there's no DAC in those headphones, so I hear what the file wants me to hear.
Mark ---- Agree with your theory about something coming later. In fact their press release on the higher quality said that AirPods were not supported at this time. Big hint. My suspicion is they will modify the silicon to support a combo of bluetooth and wifi and stream the higher quality over AirPlay. Long term the bigger deal anyway is spatial audio. Next year it will become clear why that is.
Something I like to share with you about Apple Music all together. When Apple 1st introduce iTunes with music. As you know the internet speed that period was still immature and very expensive to have high speed internet. Apple tried their best to provide audio compression to accomidate with the speed of the internet available that time yet does not take away a lot of the audio quality. Of-course many music listeners don't pay much attention about high-end audio but there's a huge different when you actually a music lover that you want to listen as close as posible how the music was captured. There's layers of audio and voice, instruments, the orchestra, the stadium ... all that facter counts. Now the file size to deliver those kind of audio are not practicle at that time. Today, the internet is so fast and computer data storage is not an issue. All portable devices can comfortaply store and replay without any interuption. Its a right time that Apple open the door for true music lovers to enjoy how music as it should be. Now I don't have to spend a lot of money on SACD, I am actually excited to enjoy the music as it was then.
A May 18th article on the Apple Insider website indicates that the Android version of the Apple Music app will support lossless audio at launch but not spatial audio.
To me the next Apple move is AirPlay 3 supporting lossless . It would be adopted through all new and some existing products and used by third party manufacturers.
Hello-This is a great video for a newbie like me who has the iPhone 13 and Apple Music. I've noticed so many times that some of my songs play in 16 bit/44.1 and others in 24 bit/48 and of course I often see songs that are in Hi-Res, but all this time I wonder if I can even hear that Hi-Res audio? Keep in mind I mostly listen to Apple Music via PowerBeats Pro wireless earbuds or the Apple earbuds with the lightning cable directly into the iPhone or 3.5 mm into my laptop. I would like to enhance my Apple Music listening experience but am unclear which steps(s) to take next. Can you recommend some affordable portable DAC's?
I’ve got a pair of airpods max and I’ve tried using the cable. It definitely sounds better than wireless playing lossless. Also go to accessibility in settings, then airpods, then audio accessibility settings, then turn on Headphone Accommodations, the sound is way better!.
@@MarkEllisReviews Seriously ?!!? With all the opinions and lengthy diatribes you've 'missed' one of the most significant benefits of the Apple universe...Headphone accommodations.
My company builds modern high-end (dsp controlled) speakers for mixing/mastering studios as well as domestic hifi enthusiasts. Watching the last 3-4 years, all these current market developments in audio are absolutely POSITIVE for the joy of listening to music!! Convenience (on the user side) and cost savings (on the manufacturer side) have been the main driving forces in developments for digital audio hard- & software so far. This is a NEW trend! Any news, mentions and product announcements that focus on selling stuff because of the "audio quality" means that the whole "audio ecosystem" people use in their homes and lifes will get closer to "high fidelity". Dolby pushing Atmos, investing in artists to actually provide good content, Apple pushing 3D Audio, Spotify and AppleMusic (finally) going to at least redbook standard or even high res. Subscription prices of Tidal, Deezer and Qobuz (nobody mentioned yet) dropping.... its ALL GOOD! There IS a big difference in compressed audio and lossless audio and it does not need a super expensive hifi system to benefit from it. There are two very important points that often get overlooked with "lossless audio": 1. Even if the difference is not immediately noticable to the regular user when A/B listening, a lossless playback of a good recording enables a far better "transference of emotions"! (There´s lots of interesting research in cognitive hearing science, in short: it´s not making the music "better", it´s all about avoiding artifacts facts your brain otherwise needs to actively filter out and ignore. It´s science, not voodoo) 2. The better the sound quality becomes for the "average listener", the more musicians, artists and hopefully their labels are inspired to actually provide high quality content and invest in the production of their music! "Compressed to death mp3s on cheap earbuds" had become the norm, "audiophile setups" had become a niche. Lot´s of musicians have fallen into a habbit of being careless about audio quality as well, which will change again with a broader awareness about this topic. Lossless Audio content in 16/44,1kHz or higher, Loudness Normalization (EBU R128) in streaming, better quality D/A conversion, etc. etc. etc. all these factors hint at a very positive development. The point of this post is to point out the REASON why sound quality matters: Remember all those artists that pour their heart and soul into their music to share and evoke emotions in the listener! Music can make you smile, cry, think, calm down, get energized, fall in love and much much more... Getting all technical obstacles out of the way is the big goal ...and we´re moving into the right direction.
What is the difference between lossless audio by Apple and an Apple Digital Master album or song purchased and downloaded from Apple? I purchased the latest Billie Eilish album which is the above mentioned ADM, and blue toothed it to my expensive audio set up in my living room, and the audio experience of the download is much, much better than any of my CD's, most of which are admittedly getting old. I don not subscribe to any streaming services beside Sirius XM.
So this is great news for me because I’m turning my old MacBook Air into my jukebox. But the decision makes almost 0 sense for mobile users given the fact that iPhones ditched the headphone jack and lossy element is almost guaranteed unless you do some lightning voodoo which is a big pain. So I ask a question, is it time the iPod made a comeback, new model, stronger Amp/DAC to power beefy cans? I’d say the timing is right…
@@MarkEllisReviews only if apple allows you to bypass their internal audio, you could be streaming 192 and actually end up with only 16-44 because the computer won't natively spit it out without instruction. This is where software like roon come into play shutting down and bypassing all none essentials but that's an extra monthly outlay. In this regard, the phones/iPad work better as they auto-detect the dongle and bypass the internal DAC, basically what you will be doing the dragon fly thus receiving full fat whatever you will be giving it.
Maybe Apple had one pair of headphones that could be used for listening to lossless audio, the 2018 refreshed Beats Pro, they run with the quarter inch connector, but I heard they were discontinued, they were not available in the UK, seems like Apple US online store still sell them.
I think apple should have included the lightening to aux cable and also clarified clearly that you can obtain "near" lossless music using this cable, the difference when I plug my Airpod max headphones into my macbook pro is night and day-its unbelievable , try it , I believe the same result can be obtained using the lightning to aux adapter with the aux/lightning cable with an iphone
Hey Mark, sorry if this a dumb question - will a audio interface work the same way as a DAC for lossless playback. If I plug in decent headphones (or balanced monitors) to my Scarlett Solo 3rd Gen, can I take advantage of the CD or even higher quality? Great video!
Thanks, Bryce - not a dumb question at all. Audio interfaces have DACs built-in, too, so you should be good. Just take a look at the spec in terms of what it outputs and the bitrates, etc, it accepts :)
Heard you mention that Apple HiFi would work on some devices but didn't hear Android mentioned. Does that mean it won't work with Android, regardless of whether you have the other equipment you mentioned? Thanks in advance!
Mark - A Dac, a pair of Sony XM3s and a USB to Lightening cable should do it for Hi Res audio then? I do own the AirPods Pro Max but understand their limitations - Still celebrating the innovation though -Love the content and thanks for all of your production and work 👍😁 Going to check out the podcast - I assume its title is a reference to how much Ram we should choose and tech selection generally? Thanks again
In theory, David, that should work. But I'm going to do some testing when it's released. And thanks for the kind words and for checking out the podcast! You've got it in one regarding the name ;)
AirPods Max wired goes from digital to analog and then back to digital. So that’s why Apple can’t really call it Lossless but it’ll play at the same rate as lossless. Maybe with a new cable it can be 100% lossless
Great update Mark and Apple are about to toss a hand grenade into the music streaming business. Tidal is great, but too expensive so I predominately keep to my own CD and Vinyl collection. I’ve bought a DAC and headphones similar to yourself, it does improve the quality of my CD collection stored on my iMac so I’m very interested in what Apple has to offer. My son has quite a lot of lossless audio tracks and it is night and day. Interesting times 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Hi Mark great episode very useful. I was thinking, what if you connect the small lightning to mini jack cable to the Airpod Max Pro connect it with an 3,5 mm to 3,5 mm mini-jack cable to a dac. Will the headphone play hires files or will there a conversion to 24/48?
So I have a pair of Klipsch The Fives (decent powered speakers plus a subwoofer) connected through HDMI to my Apple TV. Still not the latest generation Apple TV but it will be by June. The Fives have a reasonable quality DAC built in but I have no idea if audio signals sent through HDMI are played through the internal DAC. It will handle Hi res files just fine. I could get around that by plugging in an old iPad through another input. I know that the Apple TV will play lossless but I would rather just cast the music from my iPhone to the Apple TV. It seems simpler. I guess once it is fully implemented I will sit down and try it using the Apple TV versus another device plugged into another of the inputs. I don’t blame Apple for lossless not working over Bluetooth. They could have just lied and most people wouldn’t have known. I have two of the original Homepods sitting around. They might be more useful as well. I had them set up as a stereo pair and every few days they would unpair themselves at inopportune moments. Maybe that has been addressed as it’s been a year or so since I’ve used them for music. Now they are expensive alarm clocks.
A low powered WiFi would work just fine. Lots of bandwidth there. Air Play goes over WiFi. Apple has had a lossless codec forever now. Older than FLAC I reckon. Nice to see 24bit/192KHz though. The cost of DACs is way down, so lots of audio equipment is up to dealing with the format.
@E. O. Thanks for clearing that one up for me. I was under the impression that ALAC predated FLAC or was at least somewhat contemporary. As for AIFF, that is the good old TIFF of audio. I tend to use that over WAV. Those times when I use Audacity, AIFF has always been my render format.
I use Tidal for now and it’s enjoyable but you mentioned it was lossless but I believe their MQA masters are not lossless; it’s quite the controversy; any thoughts?
Mark you should read this: The folks at telecommunications giant Qualcomm certainly think so. In January 2016 they launched aptX HD, a Bluetooth codec capable of wirelessly transmitting 24-bit hi-res audio. In a nutshell, Bluetooth devices such as portable speakers, smartphones and wireless headphones can now sound even better.Jan 7, 2021
I’m a music fan and collector actually I use MacBook Air M1 with the Music app, I have 11.000 cds in ALAC format ranging from 16-24 bits and 44.1khz to 192 kHz. I use the beyerdynamic DT770 80ohms (closed system and the wired) at home. The 1More Triple-Driver (wired on the go) and the Bose QuietComfort 35 II (Bluetooth at home or traveling)… and the sound quality is fantastical! A very good cost/benefit equation
Just watching this video makes me exhale a sigh of relief. I’ll stick to Amazon Music HD, as a Prime member I’ve just been given a free upgrade to HD. Thankfully all the movie scores I have on my phone have been ripped. However I do have a question. I have ripped these scores to FLAC and I then had to convert them to ALAC using a converter... will there be any loss of quality if I did this?
I have been subscribing to Apple Music Match for a decade. Wondering if the new lossless can be downloaded for local storage as well. This would recreate my entire library in an amazing way. I would need a huge storage upgrade.
In your opinion on Tidal. if you can only have airpods max is there a difference in there hifi subscription and base subscription. It might be a placebo but i feel like i can hear a difference although i know im obviously not streaming at the highest rate
Thanks for the clarification Mark, that explains why a lot of tracks sound clear but lack warmth. But, CD quality? Vinyl junkies will no doubt be laughing at this announcement, but what headphones do I need?
Any wired relatively good headphones will do, for CD quality. There's hardly any super bad earphone/headphones these days, the different is usually just bad quality build not sonic quality.
Trying out apple lossless & spatial audio today on M1 iMac and I notice that on the iFi zen dac v2 I bought recently the led light stays green regardless of what type of music file I play…it was changing last week on my old intel iMac.im wondering is this something to do with the M1 sound card..if been googling the issue all day with very little luck so said I’d put it up here Mark and see if you or anybody has any info on this.thanks
@@MarkEllisReviews I found a video on midi audio output on the M1 iMac last night (just type it into spotlight) and from there you can change the bit rate/kHz output.the colour on the iFi Dac changes now but it’s fixed to whatever you set it at in the midi output.I’ve asked one of ifi’s agents on Reddit about it.said he’d get back to me….
uhh, news flash... I have the Airpods Max and although I do sometimes listen to them in wireless mode for convenience, I use that little $35 cable you mentioned along with an Audioquest Dragonfly (Cobalt version) to get extremely good sound from lossless services today. There are other DACS as well but the Audioquest line works well in this application. Since I have other high quality headphones such as Abyss 1266 TC, HifiMan HE1000SE and Meze Empyrean, I do have something to use as a reference. Although the Airpods Max will never be in the class of my other headphones, they are convenient and great sounding especially with the new Apple Hi Res offering when cabled to an external DAC. The only thing for me that Apple hasn't really addressed is integration with services like Roon that make the listening experience better. I don't see Apple going there however. They seem to thing Airplay is the answer. It really isn't. Thanks for a great video that tries to simplify and explain what's being done.
Interesting...Recently Apple has spent a great deal of R & D dollars on the audio performance of the current product line. You can hear this in the improvements found in the new iMac M1 and in the Spacial Sound treatments of the current lineup of Apple headphones. I’m looking forward to early June to see what they have to say on this topic and many others...
Quick question i have sony wh-1000xm4s which are Supposedly supported by Dolby atmos but not spacial audio i was wondering because the specs of my headphones say the drivers top out at 40khz. Will I still be able to listen to lossless audio at 24bit 40-48khz on my headphones using the gold plated auxiliary cable with my iphone 11 to my sony wh-1000 xm4 headphones???
I already know Getting a DAC like the fire fly would be pointless with these headphones unless I bought a audio file studio grade pair of headphones. Just wondering if standard lossless will still work. I already know i cant take advantage of hi rez 24 bit 192khz 😂
You're not being an arse at all (trust me!). I'm going to spend some time testing it, but I have written a little bit about it today: markellisreviews.com/how-to-listen-to-apple-music-lossless/
@@MarkEllisReviews thanks for the reply. I wonder sometimes if this pursuant for lossless is worth it and perhaps a distraction to the fact the modern music (to me) just ain’t what it used to be. The first time I heard ‘OK Computer’ was at my then girlfriend’s on a hi-fi system which I am sure didn’t sound as good as even cd mp3 - yet it is still an experience I remember to this day with the hairs on the back of neck etc. On a similar note, Nolan talks about how this pursuant for 8k TVs etc is fine but his favourite experience of watching films was on crummy CRTs.
I just bought the New Sony XM4 earbuds just so I can experience all this new sound quality that Apple has introduced but I’m finding out you can’t listen to Lossless audio via wireless earbuds. That sucksssssss
Would I get any tier of lossless on a iPhone using the Apple lightening to 3.5mm headphone adapter (which has an on-board dac) connected to a pair of wired Sony WH-1000XM4's (or any pair of wired headphones, really)?
I think the main reason why apples headphones don't support lossless audio is that bluetooth has a limited bandwith, maybe the uncompressed files are just too big for bluetooth🤔
What about spacial audio that was also mentioned. I know the amount of tracks available will be very limited, but seems Apple are working with music studios to help introduce them to the amazing results that can be achieved. What's your thought on that?
In my experience, lossy is ok when it comes to headphones, so AirPods Max buyers shouldn’t be too worried. Where the difference between lossy and lossless is really noticeable, I think, is if you’re playing music through a hifi system and listening to speakers. In that scenario, a good system combined with a good sound source should create a situation where the speakers disappear. The music is projected and envelopes you. MP3 through a hifi sounds flat. The music always sounds as though it’s coming from “over there” and it’s near impossible to lose yourself in it. I subscribe to both Apple Music and Qobuz. The latter just sounds so much better through an amp and speakers, but I tend to use Apple for headphone listening. As lossless really shines with external kit (bespoke streamers etc) it’ll be interesting to see what Apple does here. I may still keep Qobuz because, like Tidal, Deezer, Amazon etc, I can access it directly within my streamer. With Apple, I have to use AirPlay.
Doesn't AirPlay audio streaming top out at CD quality? So if the headphone is airplay (wifi) enabled you could stream CD quality. Also doesn't Bluetooth 5.2 bring some improvements to make way for higher quality?
sorry but i dont think this is entirely accurate, with airpods max wired you can get 24bits/48hz which is good enough to enjoy lossless audio from CD to 24/48Hz quality which is already pretty good and 24/192 will be downsampled and probably sound quite as good.
I have a small suspicion that Apple might leverage AirPlay technology to get lossless bandwidth over a wireless connection with the current AirPods headphones … or at least some of them. Meanwhile, I’m still confused whether a DAC is required to get lossless in all instances. Can lossless play with the 2020 MacBook Pro’s built-in speakers? Or does it need a DAC. I have a 2018 Mac mini, and I know its DAC pales in comparison to the ones built into my iPhone and even my iPad (using Bluetooth), but would those need a DAC over a wired connection to get lossless? I think Apple is careful about rolling out new services with regulators scrutinizing their every move. They’ll announce lossless and after a while tell us now to leverage their products to hear it to avoid immediately tying their products to a new (seemingly exclusionary) service.
No BT headphone can do lossless audio, even LDAC doesn’t work at the highest bandwidth most of the time. I don’t know why Apple wireless headphones can’t use AirPlay? That would solve the problem all the way to 24bit 48Khz. HiRes and good enough.
Yep Bluetooth can not. But there use to be a dedicated protocol called KLEER Audio which was natively CD RedBook. Problem is it required dedicated radio hardware even though it was not big or power hungry. It just never found a platform that would integrate it onboard. I wish it survived and we would still be using it. Oh and it was also relatively low latency especially compared to Bluetooth.
Its pretty simple, bluetooth doesnt have the bandwidth for high quality audio. Not apples problem. Also using airpods is not about quality its about convienience. An audiophile would never use airpods for critical listening, its all a mute point.
Anybody that has bought Air pods max and expected to be able to hear lossless audio with them is either very naive or is not actually interested in audio quality, because this was never going to be the case, I bought a pair of them and never through i would be able to hear lossless through them because first and foremost they are bluetooth headphones ZERO bluetooth headphones can hear hi fidelity audio. Apple is also adding spatial audio to apple music which the air pods max will be able to listen to wirelessly which imo is more exciting than lossless audio. APPLe are definitely not reinventing how streamed music is listened to you will atm at least always need a DAC and cable in order to hear hifi audio.
@@137Furon No, I'm not talking about the files, I'm talking about the information within (the music). Spatial audio is achieved by reducing the dynamic range and cutting down diverse frequencies of the instruments. And it's not a "side effect", literally it's the way to make your ears (brain actually) believe that the sounds come from places where they actually don't come from
The question is: does Airpods Max have the necessary hardware to support WiFi? I don’t think so! Also if Airpods Max supports WiFi, the battery life is going to suck.
Amazon as given it’s customers HD music upgrade for free too ….listening to it with AirPods , all songs are a bit louder and a bit clearer ….that will do for me thank you !
Hang on. Apple have introduced a free upgrade to their music streaming service that people with the appropriate kit can take advantage of today. For free. No upgrade tier. Headphones that they sold a few months ago don’t support lossless. They didn’t then. They don’t now. Why would anyone be aggrieved that something they bought months ago isn’t compatible with a free (I’m going to keep on saying this) upgrade to an existing service? I’m seriously missing how anyone can be disappointed in this. If you class yourself as an audiophile, then you’re probablly already using a high end amp, dac, etc…no one has had anything taken from them. No one has been robbed. It worked yesterday. It works today.
I say a lot of what you’ve said above in my video, mate. It’s just a bit irritating if you’ve spent north of £500 on a pair of headphones that can’t play back Apple’s own lossless audio. But, as I mention, it gives them room to manoeuvre with the next iteration of AirPods Max. Winners and losers all round, as always.
@@MarkEllisReviews I understand. It wasn’t as much a criticism of you, but people already in your comments and what others have said. But my point still is valid. People bought them with an expectation of ‘a’. Apple have updated their service so now deliver ‘a’ and ‘b’. Your headphones you bought to play a, still play a. Nothing has been taken away. That’s all.
The average person won't notice a significant difference between lossless and lossy, so don't think it's such a big deal. Spatial audio with Dolby Atmos on the other hand is a completely different story.
It’s more than that. No person will tell any difference between a lossless encoding of a CD and an AAC 256 encoding from the same source. This has been demonstrated time and time again. I would love to be proven wrong, but proof here requires blind testing with statistically significant group sizes so anecdotes won’t do. I’m always on the hunt for better audio. But it just hasn’t proven to be the case that it matters. Some of the terms thrown around in this video aren’t being used precisely or are misleading at best. Modern compression doesn’t throw out the kick of a bass drum, or the trailing sound of a crash, or the breath of a vocalist. Those things are audible, so they remain.
@@MarkEllisReviews Good presentation. Anything that helps more people enjoy music the better off we all are for it. Upsampling or oversampling creates new information based off what comes in before and afterward in an audio stream, while it can lead to higher resolution sound it can also lead to some audio artifacts. I believe it is personal preference considering your equipment, room acoustics, and what sounds best to you the listener. My hope is that Apple's move to lossless will lead to better production and sound engineering values of original and remixed recordings, including mixing for Dolby Atmos which done correctly can be magical.
For the cost of $550 that an AirPod Max costs... you'd be better off getting a good wired headphone like a Hifiman Sundara($350) or Sennheiser HD 6XX ($220 on Drop) and buying a decent Dac/Amp combo for it. That setup will take advantage of the Apple Lossless Audio better than some possible new dedicated to Lossless Audio version of the AirPods Max that might be coming at some point in the future.
@@MarkEllisReviews Unless Apple can magically come up with a new wireless solution that can transfer up to 6000kbps (that's about the data rate cap of a 192khz 24bit lossless file, current max is 990kbps using bluetooth 4.2 or higher with Sony's proprietary LDAC codec, and that's barely enough for 44.1khz 16bit CD quality), AirPod Max / Homepods and their future versions aren't going to make any difference in listening experience, in the end you will have to hook them up via wires to get lossless anyway. What's more likely going to happen is the future AirPod Maxs are going to have a better dac amp built in to support lossless but only through wired connection. Apple iPod might make a resurgence with better dac/amp chips akin to today's mid/high end DAPs. But no matter what they are going to do, wires are going to be required to listen to lossless music. Ironically, they ditched the headphone jacks on their iPhones many years ago, we might see them being added back.
I really appreciate your info and at the same time I am getting really sick of Apple holding back just to keep there customers coming back. They really better watch or they are going to lose customers to some of the other great technical advancements of other manufacturers. Just my opinion. Thanks. I did sign up to your new podcast and I am looking forward to listening to it. Thank you.
I personally don’t care whether I can listen to Apple Music on my BT headphones, as that’s not how I listen to high quality music - everyone know Bluetooth can’t stream CD quality. I really need a way to get the music to my stereo and external speakers. I already have subscriptions to Tidal and Qobuz and until Apple has an API to stream directly to dedicated streaming devices then I don’t see the point. Unless you want to be stuck at your desk listening through a computer and DAC/Amp combo there’s no way for me to listen (and yes, I subscribe to Apple Music already as part of an Apple subscription bundle). Bluesound have already said they can’t stream Apple Music with their streaming devices, and can only use Airplay which doesn’t support anything above 44khz/16bit.
I don't think any real audiophile went on to buy Bluetooth headphones for HiRes, no matter who is selling them. People buy these BT headphones for convenience like being able to walk walk around the house and for noise cancelling. I don't know why people are making a big deal out of this. Airpods Max are airpods, Apple didn't hide that fact, it's in the name. To me it seems like Apple is now being blamed for bringing better quality music to all subscribers for free.
I am pretty confident Apple will release a firmware update to support Apple Lossless on the AirPods Max (wired mode) only. The reason that it won't work currently, is because unlike most conventional headphones, when use AUX cable it's a analog signal end to end, but Apple's cable would convert the analog signal to digital, hence why it's so expensive, then the AirPods Max can only decode compressed AAC signal. Apple Lossless uses ALAC which the AirPod Max doesn't (currently) support. But I believe the AirPods Max hardware is capable of decoding ALAC, it only requires a firmware upgrade to have it supported..... Unless Apple wants to make money and piss off its customers. From product life cycle point of view, a headphone usually gets updated every 2-3 years, the AirPods Max is merely 6 months old, I doubt Apple will release a service that their flagship product wouldn't support (at all). Worthnoting that Apple's current generation wireless headphones are also AAC only, meaning it can accept any signal but it will play we AAC compression, they could update the firmware to support ALAC, but the implementation won't be ideal, as Lossless take too much of the bluetooth channel, given Apple's style, I doubt they would do that. This is my understanding of how it works anyway.
It is not night and day at all. Almost no one will be able to tell the difference between Apples lossy and their lossless. Apple do an exceptional job of their lossy codec.
I dont really know why i watched this video, but i still found it intresting I dont use music streaming services one reason being is that it only takes 1 lightning strike to take out my internet (and it HAS happened before, when it happened i was without internet for quite a few days) and even though i do have a smartphone, i only have a small amount of data, which i dont really use unless i need to (for example if my internet goes down, i use that data to check emails and such, i genrally DONT use the data for any kind of streaming) same reason why i tend to not stream movies, i instead have a collection of Blu-rays (my Blu-ray collection now takes up an entire shelf) and its the same reason why i dont use game streaming services (I tend to store my local collection of music in FLAC)
AirPods Max wired goes from digital to analog and then back to digital. So that’s why Apple can’t really call it Lossless but they still be played at the same rate. HomePod will help lossless.
Why would I be pissed off? I knew they didn't support lossless when I bought them. If I wanted to listen to "HI-FI" I have Planars with a dedicated DAC/AMP.
Something that no one is talking about is that by Apple using regular lossless ALAC for up to 24/192 it means that MQA is pretty much dead in the industry ...
Love your channel and your reviews and congrats on the podcast!!! Might your love of tech be misleading you a bit on this one? You dismiss spatial audio for music early on and spend most of your review discussing lossless, but I think Apple views spatial audio as the real play here, and lossless is more a footnote. You can see this in their marketing. The video they shared to announce it and the emails they sent out (which is what most everyday, non-tech people-the vast majority of their user base-will see) don’t even mention lossless at all. And the press release on their site which does devotes the majority of the text to spatial audio. That makes sense to me because spatial audio is precisely what most people will recognise. It’s also the one thing Apple will have that no one else will for the thousands of songs they are launching it with-at least for a while. And that’s on top of the Digital Masters programme they already have going-and I’m far from an audiophile but those who are generally agree that getting the master right matters most, before even the format. So starting June, for everyone with any AirPods (and vastly more people have regular AirPods than AirPods Pro or Max), spatial audio will bring an instantly more immersive experience they can recognise and even for the music that’s not spatial audio there’ll be the Digital Masters making them sound richer and fuller. Those who do want lossless will also have it, but that won’t be most people, because even if extra equipment wasn’t necessary, the data requirements and inability to appreciate it would remain a significant limitation. I did buy a pair the AirPods Max by the way, and I’m certainly excited. I love how music sounds right now and am excited that it’ll sound even better. And oh one more thing: Apple does say you can use the wire for lossless but they can’t call it that because it gets converted and back. The wording did give me the distinct impression that the sound will again, be as close to lossless as to be indistinguishable for us non-audiophile types. But I still think that the whole presence of lossless remains a footnote here. If anything Apple botched the marketing a bit by mentioning lossless at all, and they should have just mentioned spatial and left lossless for the main announcement so people stayed focused. Maybe they didn’t want to sound like they were the only ones out of the lossless party was why they rushed to announce it?
Thanks for the kind words, Doc! And just to clarify - I'm not dismissing spatial audio entirely, but I do think it's incredibly gimmicky for music - it's practically a non-existent market for that kind of audio. For movies and TV - great, it has a place, but even that is very small - even compared to the size of the audiophile community. You may some fantastic points - thank you.
If they enabled airplay in the dedicated chips you would get lose less cd quality and if they removed the cap on airplay they could support streaming on networks to say 24bit 384 but all they really need os 24bit 96k unless you have to ups ample for external amps analogue filetrs that's all you need.
If Apple's music is actually lossless, because you know how Apple is about telling the truth. Also, Tidal has been very sketchy about their actual quality. Search youtube for MQA and you'll find a couple videos on it.Apple put out lossless for one reason. Loss of money to the other services because they had inferior quality. How are you going to get lossless on the APM when the music goes through a DSP?
The removal of headphone jack is coming to haunt apple now, why in the world did they do it and now iPhone users are confused whether to be happy about lossless music or sad that they can’t use it
I really enjoyed creating this one. Let me know what you think - if you've bought a pair of AirPods Max, are you annoyed by this news, or excited about the future?
I’m so happy for the lossless, i use wired headphones and iFi hip-dac.👍
Hi Mark, me again. I think I was being over optimistic it seems like the article that I was reading (on the magazine stand inside Tesco) was about the possible advantages of the upcoming Bluetooth 5.2. Sorry, that's what happens when you're to much of a cheapskate to buy the magazine.
Not annoyed at all. Contrary to you, I‘m not really interested in lossless. I had nice Sennheiser/Beyerdynamic and B&O Headphones connected via a cable to a nice stereo (B&O for the last 20 yrs). Being 60+ I probably can‘t hear the difference and still I think that my AirPods Max sound better. And binaural on the AirPods Max (e.g. Taylor Swift‘s Long Pond Session, Bruce Springsteen‘s latest,. etc) to me really provide me with a WOW-experience in detail and clarity. I got the first binaural records (Sennheiser‘s Kunstkopf) in the late 70s, and longed to get more of this for a long time. I watched the Taylor Swift, Springsteen,… videos on and on, just to get the - for me - much better audio. My daughter - as an audio engineer - still likes the classic stereo mix better, but I don‘t. Might be because I‘m getting deaf, but still can hear the additional information transported through binaural …
Howdy Mark, I have just purchased the Airpods Max few days before the Apple announced the lossless audio streams... Looking at all the fuzz on the media about Airpods Max not being able to support the better formats of audio got me in to looking at what had iFixit posted wi their tear-downs of the headphones. Ok, so we know or think we know that the DAC is from Cirrus Logic. Let me put a statement that I do not know what chip exactly is in the Airpods Max cause there are no specs for that exact chip on line, but I was looking at what CL had available in similar package. It looks like this is 42 WLCSP package and it seems that all the offered chips support sample rate up to 384kHz. Some ICs are even rated as Master HiFi by CL. When Apple has released the Airpods Pro no one in the whole world could imagine that they would bump them to support Spatial Audio and I believe that Apple is going to drop the same bomb now with the Airpods Max. There is a 256MB flash chip on the board, I bet all of the flash is not used for firmware! Let's be optimistic here!
Same here, I bought the Airpods Max thinking I would mostly use it wired for music production with Apogee’s little Groove DAC. To my surprised quite a few music support Bluetooth audio with little latency!
Wow! I'm truly "a kid in a sweet shop" learning of all your media in the description above Mark. I feel a bit overwhelmed as a lot of these media formats are new to a "50-something" year old man like me. My heartiest congrats on launching 'Eight or Sixteen'. I love the presentation & content of your TH-cam videos. Rob is off to a winning start from your remark that we will like him. I'm going over now to listen to "If all we get is widgets..." Many thanks, man!
Brian, you’re too kind - thank you so much.
I'm a bit confused on why you don't think the AirPods Max won't support the new Apple Music Loseless format. I understand what you mean by the Bluetooth version, as that is limited, to a certain degree by the bandwidth. However, you could just plug your AirPods Max via lighting to 3.5 mm into your DAC and then you'd be just fine. As they work like any other pair of headphones at that point.
The aux cable apparently doesn't deliver true lossless because it's doing some kind of conversion - Apple has been careful not to suggest that it can.
@@MarkEllisReviews Interesting. So, your saying (and not exact numbers or jargon here) if you are getting a 24 bit signal via Apple Music with the AirPods Max 3.5 mm to lighting DAC will down sample it to 16 bit instead?
As I'd imagine hardware wise that they should be able to support high-def playback. So, if that's the case that's really interesting and a weird play by Apple.
@@ThomasMuehler I'm not sure what it samples it down to (or even if it does), but there's a DAC in the AirPods Max, and some kind of conversion going on inside that cable, too, so it's never going to be truly lossless :)
@@MarkEllisReviews I apologize for so many questions but don't get to talk tech stuff with too many people and looks like you've done some research.
So, your saying it's not going to be truly lossless because it's going through multiple DAC's (headphones, cable, perhaps external DAC) and due to that you will be losing something each time it's converted?
But wouldn't the same thing be happening any time you go through an DAC like any other headphones? Or are you saying that because it's doing that multiple times that's where the loss comes from?
@@ThomasMuehler You've got it in one. When a lossless file passes through my headphone amp directly into my Sennheiser headphones, there's no DAC in those headphones, so I hear what the file wants me to hear.
I’m so happy we got lossless, I used to go and look for the 320 versions of all my favorites songs
Me too!
I have come to the same conclusion and can hardly wait.
Mark ---- Agree with your theory about something coming later. In fact their press release on the higher quality said that AirPods were not supported at this time. Big hint. My suspicion is they will modify the silicon to support a combo of bluetooth and wifi and stream the higher quality over AirPlay. Long term the bigger deal anyway is spatial audio. Next year it will become clear why that is.
Interesting to speculate on this stuff, isn’t it?
@@MarkEllisReviews they said homepods will support lossless tru airplay...so it's not impossible for airpods max too.
Good video man, finally found one which actually tells u straight away exactly what we searched for 🤘🏻👍
Awesome - that's great to hear.
Something I like to share with you about Apple Music all together. When Apple 1st introduce iTunes with music. As you know the internet speed that period was still immature and very expensive to have high speed internet. Apple tried their best to provide audio compression to accomidate with the speed of the internet available that time yet does not take away a lot of the audio quality. Of-course many music listeners don't pay much attention about high-end audio but there's a huge different when you actually a music lover that you want to listen as close as posible how the music was captured. There's layers of audio and voice, instruments, the orchestra, the stadium ... all that facter counts. Now the file size to deliver those kind of audio are not practicle at that time. Today, the internet is so fast and computer data storage is not an issue. All portable devices can comfortaply store and replay without any interuption. Its a right time that Apple open the door for true music lovers to enjoy how music as it should be. Now I don't have to spend a lot of money on SACD, I am actually excited to enjoy the music as it was then.
What's about the Apple Music App on Playstore for Android devices?
A May 18th article on the Apple Insider website indicates that the Android version of the Apple Music app will support lossless audio at launch but not spatial audio.
To me the next Apple move is AirPlay 3 supporting lossless
. It would be adopted through all new and some existing products and used by third party manufacturers.
This is what I’m banking on, too…
Fantastic information, well done 👏 just subscribed 😉
Welcome onboard, Phil - thanks for the kind comments!
Hello-This is a great video for a newbie like me who has the iPhone 13 and Apple Music. I've noticed so many times that some of my songs play in 16 bit/44.1 and others in 24 bit/48 and of course I often see songs that are in Hi-Res, but all this time I wonder if I can even hear that Hi-Res audio? Keep in mind I mostly listen to Apple Music via PowerBeats Pro wireless earbuds or the Apple earbuds with the lightning cable directly into the iPhone or 3.5 mm into my laptop.
I would like to enhance my Apple Music listening experience but am unclear which steps(s) to take next.
Can you recommend some affordable portable DAC's?
Great video Mark… concise info and seamlessly edit. Bravo!
Thank you so much!
subscribing to your podcast was a no-brainer. love your voice!
Thank you!
I’ve got a pair of airpods max and I’ve tried using the cable. It definitely sounds better than wireless playing lossless. Also go to accessibility in settings, then airpods, then audio accessibility settings, then turn on Headphone Accommodations, the sound is way better!.
Interesting. I've never heard of that setting!
@@MarkEllisReviews definitely worth a try, I’d be interested to see what you think.
@@MarkEllisReviews Seriously ?!!? With all the opinions and lengthy diatribes you've 'missed' one of the most significant benefits of the Apple universe...Headphone accommodations.
@@s2s_parrotfan236 Yep, seriously!
I have a question… can I use the wired apple earbuds to listen?
I have a question. For the Bluetooth devices using lossless, can they not have any of that or just the highest quality lossless choice?
My company builds modern high-end (dsp controlled) speakers for mixing/mastering studios as well as domestic hifi enthusiasts. Watching the last 3-4 years, all these current market developments in audio are absolutely POSITIVE for the joy of listening to music!!
Convenience (on the user side) and cost savings (on the manufacturer side) have been the main driving forces in developments for digital audio hard- & software so far. This is a NEW trend! Any news, mentions and product announcements that focus on selling stuff because of the "audio quality" means that the whole "audio ecosystem" people use in their homes and lifes will get closer to "high fidelity".
Dolby pushing Atmos, investing in artists to actually provide good content, Apple pushing 3D Audio, Spotify and AppleMusic (finally) going to at least redbook standard or even high res. Subscription prices of Tidal, Deezer and Qobuz (nobody mentioned yet) dropping.... its ALL GOOD!
There IS a big difference in compressed audio and lossless audio and it does not need a super expensive hifi system to benefit from it.
There are two very important points that often get overlooked with "lossless audio":
1. Even if the difference is not immediately noticable to the regular user when A/B listening, a lossless playback of a good recording enables a far better "transference of emotions"!
(There´s lots of interesting research in cognitive hearing science, in short: it´s not making the music "better", it´s all about avoiding artifacts facts your brain otherwise needs to actively filter out and ignore. It´s science, not voodoo)
2. The better the sound quality becomes for the "average listener", the more musicians, artists and hopefully their labels are inspired to actually provide high quality content and invest in the production of their music!
"Compressed to death mp3s on cheap earbuds" had become the norm, "audiophile setups" had become a niche. Lot´s of musicians have fallen into a habbit of being careless about audio quality as well, which will change again with a broader awareness about this topic.
Lossless Audio content in 16/44,1kHz or higher, Loudness Normalization (EBU R128) in streaming, better quality D/A conversion, etc. etc. etc. all these factors hint at a very positive development.
The point of this post is to point out the REASON why sound quality matters:
Remember all those artists that pour their heart and soul into their music to share and evoke emotions in the listener! Music can make you smile, cry, think, calm down, get energized, fall in love and much much more...
Getting all technical obstacles out of the way is the big goal ...and we´re moving into the right direction.
What is the difference between lossless audio by Apple and an Apple Digital Master album or song purchased and downloaded from Apple? I purchased the latest Billie Eilish album which is the above mentioned ADM, and blue toothed it to my expensive audio set up in my living room, and the audio experience of the download is much, much better than any of my CD's, most of which are admittedly getting old. I don not subscribe to any streaming services beside Sirius XM.
So this is great news for me because I’m turning my old MacBook Air into my jukebox.
But the decision makes almost 0 sense for mobile users given the fact that iPhones ditched the headphone jack and lossy element is almost guaranteed unless you do some lightning voodoo which is a big pain.
So I ask a question, is it time the iPod made a comeback, new model, stronger Amp/DAC to power beefy cans? I’d say the timing is right…
What an awesome idea for a MacBook Air retirement!
@@MarkEllisReviews only if apple allows you to bypass their internal audio, you could be streaming 192 and actually end up with only 16-44 because the computer won't natively spit it out without instruction. This is where software like roon come into play shutting down and bypassing all none essentials but that's an extra monthly outlay. In this regard, the phones/iPad work better as they auto-detect the dongle and bypass the internal DAC, basically what you will be doing the dragon fly thus receiving full fat whatever you will be giving it.
Will loseless quality come to the music I already purchased or will it only be available for Apple Music subscribers?
Maybe Apple had one pair of headphones that could be used for listening to lossless audio, the 2018 refreshed Beats Pro, they run with the quarter inch connector, but I heard they were discontinued, they were not available in the UK, seems like Apple US online store still sell them.
it was a very good episode about audio. Thx for that and keep digging \m/
Thank you, Mario!
I think apple should have included the lightening to aux cable and also clarified clearly that you can obtain "near" lossless music using this cable, the difference when I plug my Airpod max headphones into my macbook pro is night and day-its unbelievable , try it , I believe the same result can be obtained using the lightning to aux adapter with the aux/lightning cable with an iphone
Hey Mark, sorry if this a dumb question - will a audio interface work the same way as a DAC for lossless playback. If I plug in decent headphones (or balanced monitors) to my Scarlett Solo 3rd Gen, can I take advantage of the CD or even higher quality? Great video!
Thanks, Bryce - not a dumb question at all. Audio interfaces have DACs built-in, too, so you should be good. Just take a look at the spec in terms of what it outputs and the bitrates, etc, it accepts :)
Hey thanks for this video!! Is lossless available on Apple music android app??
Thanks! And I’m not sure on that I’m afraid. Time will tell
Heard you mention that Apple HiFi would work on some devices but didn't hear Android mentioned. Does that mean it won't work with Android, regardless of whether you have the other equipment you mentioned? Thanks in advance!
Great video Mark I just love how honest you are and how concise!
I’m about to order a iMac and going m1 8gig after your reviews.
Thank you! Enjoy your purchase!
@@MarkEllisReviews I will! Unfortunately it’s a 9 week wait until delivery !
Mark - A Dac, a pair of Sony XM3s and a USB to Lightening cable should do it for Hi Res audio then? I do own the AirPods Pro Max but understand their limitations - Still celebrating the innovation though -Love the content and thanks for all of your production and work 👍😁 Going to check out the podcast - I assume its title is a reference to how much Ram we should choose and tech selection generally? Thanks again
In theory, David, that should work. But I'm going to do some testing when it's released. And thanks for the kind words and for checking out the podcast! You've got it in one regarding the name ;)
AirPods Max wired goes from digital to analog and then back to digital.
So that’s why Apple can’t really call it Lossless but it’ll play at the same rate as lossless. Maybe with a new cable it can be 100% lossless
Great update Mark and Apple are about to toss a hand grenade into the music streaming business. Tidal is great, but too expensive so I predominately keep to my own CD and Vinyl collection. I’ve bought a DAC and headphones similar to yourself, it does improve the quality of my CD collection stored on my iMac so I’m very interested in what Apple has to offer. My son has quite a lot of lossless audio tracks and it is night and day. Interesting times 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Interesting times indeed, and I agree with you on TIDAL.
I have an iPod touch 5th generation ; will it be compatible with these new format.
Thanks for the video! Would the black DragonFly enough to drive HD650? Or should one buy e.g. the red one?
Should be, but I'd contact AudioQuest first to make sure.
@@MarkEllisReviews I see, thank you!
So what headphones do you need ?
Check this out (video coming later this week): markellisreviews.com/how-to-listen-to-apple-music-lossless/
What about AV Receivers with AirPlay? Does AirPlay work as a solution for playing lossless audio? Or is it as useless as Bluetooth?
Hi Mark. I noticed that you have a mechanical keyboard. What are the advantages? I’m seeing them more and more.
Have a hunt through my videos - you’ll find one on mechanical keyboards 😊
Mark:Great News
Also Mark:Bad news
😂😂
Hi I want to know if I can use the cable 3.5 mm adapter jack with an aux to reproduce lossless in the Car stereo? It works? Or no?
what microfone do you use sir? The sound so good
I’ve made a video about this - have a hunt through my archives :) And thank you for the kind words.
Hi Mark great episode very useful. I was thinking, what if you connect the small lightning to mini jack cable to the Airpod Max Pro connect it with an 3,5 mm to 3,5 mm mini-jack cable to a dac. Will the headphone play hires files or will there a conversion to 24/48?
So I have a pair of Klipsch The Fives (decent powered speakers plus a subwoofer) connected through HDMI to my Apple TV. Still not the latest generation Apple TV but it will be by June. The Fives have a reasonable quality DAC built in but I have no idea if audio signals sent through HDMI are played through the internal DAC. It will handle Hi res files just fine. I could get around that by plugging in an old iPad through another input. I know that the Apple TV will play lossless but I would rather just cast the music from my iPhone to the Apple TV. It seems simpler. I guess once it is fully implemented I will sit down and try it using the Apple TV versus another device plugged into another of the inputs. I don’t blame Apple for lossless not working over Bluetooth. They could have just lied and most people wouldn’t have known. I have two of the original Homepods sitting around. They might be more useful as well. I had them set up as a stereo pair and every few days they would unpair themselves at inopportune moments. Maybe that has been addressed as it’s been a year or so since I’ve used them for music. Now they are expensive alarm clocks.
Congratulations on the podcast
Thank you 🙏🏻
A low powered WiFi would work just fine. Lots of bandwidth there. Air Play goes over WiFi. Apple has had a lossless codec forever now. Older than FLAC I reckon. Nice to see 24bit/192KHz though. The cost of DACs is way down, so lots of audio equipment is up to dealing with the format.
@E. O. Thanks for clearing that one up for me. I was under the impression that ALAC predated FLAC or was at least somewhat contemporary. As for AIFF, that is the good old TIFF of audio. I tend to use that over WAV. Those times when I use Audacity, AIFF has always been my render format.
@E. O. Indeed. The metadata is so useful. And thanks for the timeline info. FLAC is older than I thought it was.
Will the Beoplay H8i or H9 headphones make the most of this lossless audio??
I use Tidal for now and it’s enjoyable but you mentioned it was lossless but I believe their MQA masters are not lossless; it’s quite the controversy; any thoughts?
Mark you should read this: The folks at telecommunications giant Qualcomm certainly think so. In January 2016 they launched aptX HD, a Bluetooth codec capable of wirelessly transmitting 24-bit hi-res audio. In a nutshell, Bluetooth devices such as portable speakers, smartphones and wireless headphones can now sound even better.Jan 7, 2021
Thanks for the tip-off, José! I remember that now. We’re heading somewhere very interesting, I think…
I’m a music fan and collector actually I use MacBook Air M1 with the Music app, I have 11.000 cds in ALAC format ranging from 16-24 bits and 44.1khz to 192 kHz. I use the beyerdynamic DT770 80ohms (closed system and the wired) at home.
The 1More Triple-Driver (wired on the go) and the Bose QuietComfort 35 II (Bluetooth at home or traveling)… and the sound quality is fantastical! A very good cost/benefit equation
@E. O. yes, but there are sites we’re you can buy higher resolution formats
Apple said that the 10dollar dongle "3.5 to lightning port" gives lossless audio, so can I use that dongle to airpodsmax??
Just watching this video makes me exhale a sigh of relief. I’ll stick to Amazon Music HD, as a Prime member I’ve just been given a free upgrade to HD. Thankfully all the movie scores I have on my phone have been ripped. However I do have a question. I have ripped these scores to FLAC and I then had to convert them to ALAC using a converter... will there be any loss of quality if I did this?
I’m not qualified enough to answer that question, I’m afraid. My guess would be that any difference would be negligible.
@@MarkEllisReviews Cheers
@E. O. thanks
I think we’re missing the option that aptX HD Bluetooth could give us here. AptX HD will give you 24bit/48kHz🤘🏼
I have been subscribing to Apple Music Match for a decade. Wondering if the new lossless can be downloaded for local storage as well. This would recreate my entire library in an amazing way. I would need a huge storage upgrade.
Just googled and found out no. And you cannot download lossless with itunes purchases either.
In your opinion on Tidal. if you can only have airpods max is there a difference in there hifi subscription and base subscription. It might be a placebo but i feel like i can hear a difference although i know im obviously not streaming at the highest rate
Thanks for the clarification Mark, that explains why a lot of tracks sound clear but lack warmth. But, CD quality? Vinyl junkies will no doubt be laughing at this announcement, but what headphones do I need?
Any wired relatively good headphones will do, for CD quality. There's hardly any super bad earphone/headphones these days, the different is usually just bad quality build not sonic quality.
Trying out apple lossless & spatial audio today on M1 iMac and I notice that on the iFi zen dac v2 I bought recently the led light stays green regardless of what type of music file I play…it was changing last week on my old intel iMac.im wondering is this something to do with the M1 sound card..if been googling the issue all day with very little luck so said I’d put it up here Mark and see if you or anybody has any info on this.thanks
I have a feeling the iFi Zen DAC has been updated and the latest update, for some reason, means the light stays the same at all times...
@@MarkEllisReviews I found a video on midi audio output on the M1 iMac last night (just type it into spotlight) and from there you can change the bit rate/kHz output.the colour on the iFi Dac changes now but it’s fixed to whatever you set it at in the midi output.I’ve asked one of ifi’s agents on Reddit about it.said he’d get back to me….
uhh, news flash... I have the Airpods Max and although I do sometimes listen to them in wireless mode for convenience, I use that little $35 cable you mentioned along with an Audioquest Dragonfly (Cobalt version) to get extremely good sound from lossless services today. There are other DACS as well but the Audioquest line works well in this application. Since I have other high quality headphones such as Abyss 1266 TC, HifiMan HE1000SE and Meze Empyrean, I do have something to use as a reference. Although the Airpods Max will never be in the class of my other headphones, they are convenient and great sounding especially with the new Apple Hi Res offering when cabled to an external DAC. The only thing for me that Apple hasn't really addressed is integration with services like Roon that make the listening experience better. I don't see Apple going there however. They seem to thing Airplay is the answer. It really isn't. Thanks for a great video that tries to simplify and explain what's being done.
Why subscribe to streaming services to get lossless audio if you can rip your own CDs to FLAC which is a lossless format. Nice setup Mark.
Thank you! And yep, that's a great solution for some people.
Interesting...Recently Apple has spent a great deal of R & D dollars on the audio performance of the current product line. You can hear this in the improvements found in the new iMac M1 and in the Spacial Sound treatments of the current lineup of Apple headphones. I’m looking forward to early June to see what they have to say on this topic and many others...
Me too!
Quick question i have sony wh-1000xm4s which are Supposedly supported by Dolby atmos but not spacial audio i was wondering because the specs of my headphones say the drivers top out at 40khz. Will I still be able to listen to lossless audio at 24bit 40-48khz on my headphones using the gold plated auxiliary cable with my iphone 11 to my sony wh-1000 xm4 headphones???
I already know Getting a DAC like the fire fly would be pointless with these headphones unless I bought a audio file studio grade pair of headphones. Just wondering if standard lossless will still work. I already know i cant take advantage of hi rez 24 bit 192khz 😂
Not to be an arse, but I wonder if you have undervalued Dolby Atmos, spacial audio in 10 years might be what stereo was to mono.
You're not being an arse at all (trust me!). I'm going to spend some time testing it, but I have written a little bit about it today: markellisreviews.com/how-to-listen-to-apple-music-lossless/
@@MarkEllisReviews thanks for the reply. I wonder sometimes if this pursuant for lossless is worth it and perhaps a distraction to the fact the modern music (to me) just ain’t what it used to be. The first time I heard ‘OK Computer’ was at my then girlfriend’s on a hi-fi system which I am sure didn’t sound as good as even cd mp3 - yet it is still an experience I remember to this day with the hairs on the back of neck etc. On a similar note, Nolan talks about how this pursuant for 8k TVs etc is fine but his favourite experience of watching films was on crummy CRTs.
Can I use my beats studio 2 wired for this lossless audio? Help me out
I just bought the New Sony XM4 earbuds just so I can experience all this new sound quality that Apple has introduced but I’m finding out you can’t listen to Lossless audio via wireless earbuds. That sucksssssss
Would I get any tier of lossless on a iPhone using the Apple lightening to 3.5mm headphone adapter (which has an on-board dac) connected to a pair of wired Sony WH-1000XM4's (or any pair of wired headphones, really)?
Great video. My husband LOVES lossless and this is definitely peaking his interest. He'd love to see the audio quest dragonfly video.
Thanks!
Btw what you love babe 😚😚😉
I think the main reason why apples headphones don't support lossless audio is that bluetooth has a limited bandwith, maybe the uncompressed files are just too big for bluetooth🤔
You're right.
@E. O. doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of lossless files tho?
Airplay supports lossless playback. I’ve always wondered why Apple hasn’t promoted it more.
What about spacial audio that was also mentioned. I know the amount of tracks available will be very limited, but seems Apple are working with music studios to help introduce them to the amazing results that can be achieved. What's your thought on that?
Spatial Audio is seriously cool… but gimmicky for music, in my opinion.
In my experience, lossy is ok when it comes to headphones, so AirPods Max buyers shouldn’t be too worried. Where the difference between lossy and lossless is really noticeable, I think, is if you’re playing music through a hifi system and listening to speakers. In that scenario, a good system combined with a good sound source should create a situation where the speakers disappear. The music is projected and envelopes you. MP3 through a hifi sounds flat. The music always sounds as though it’s coming from “over there” and it’s near impossible to lose yourself in it. I subscribe to both Apple Music and Qobuz. The latter just sounds so much better through an amp and speakers, but I tend to use Apple for headphone listening. As lossless really shines with external kit (bespoke streamers etc) it’ll be interesting to see what Apple does here. I may still keep Qobuz because, like Tidal, Deezer, Amazon etc, I can access it directly within my streamer. With Apple, I have to use AirPlay.
Doesn't AirPlay audio streaming top out at CD quality? So if the headphone is airplay (wifi) enabled you could stream CD quality. Also doesn't Bluetooth 5.2 bring some improvements to make way for higher quality?
The original airplay yes airplay 2 can do 24/48 or higher if they allow it
sorry but i dont think this is entirely accurate, with airpods max wired you can get 24bits/48hz which is good enough to enjoy lossless audio from CD to 24/48Hz quality which is already pretty good and 24/192 will be downsampled and probably sound quite as good.
Yeah I’m using the max with the cable and playing 24/48Hz I can definitely hear the difference from wireless, actually quite noticeable to me.
I have a small suspicion that Apple might leverage AirPlay technology to get lossless bandwidth over a wireless connection with the current AirPods headphones … or at least some of them.
Meanwhile, I’m still confused whether a DAC is required to get lossless in all instances. Can lossless play with the 2020 MacBook Pro’s built-in speakers? Or does it need a DAC. I have a 2018 Mac mini, and I know its DAC pales in comparison to the ones built into my iPhone and even my iPad (using Bluetooth), but would those need a DAC over a wired connection to get lossless?
I think Apple is careful about rolling out new services with regulators scrutinizing their every move. They’ll announce lossless and after a while tell us now to leverage their products to hear it to avoid immediately tying their products to a new (seemingly exclusionary) service.
Qobuz is truly lossless unlike Tidal. Good video.
Thanks!
So being simplistic “lossless” appears to be streaming .wav files instead of compressed files (AAC/MP3) or have I got this wrong?
You’ve pretty much got it.
No, it’s ALAC. Not WAV. ALAC can be 16bit 44.KHz, all the way to 24bit 192Khz. So, lossless all the way to HiRes.
Yes except it's not WAV, but ALAC instead. It's the same quality however
AirPods Max Pro?
I really hope that isn't the name.
No BT headphone can do lossless audio, even LDAC doesn’t work at the highest bandwidth most of the time. I don’t know why Apple wireless headphones can’t use AirPlay? That would solve the problem all the way to 24bit 48Khz. HiRes and good enough.
I think AirPlay will be the answer going forward. More thoughts from me today: markellisreviews.com/how-to-listen-to-apple-music-lossless/
Yep Bluetooth can not. But there use to be a dedicated protocol called KLEER Audio which was natively CD RedBook. Problem is it required dedicated radio hardware even though it was not big or power hungry. It just never found a platform that would integrate it onboard. I wish it survived and we would still be using it. Oh and it was also relatively low latency especially compared to Bluetooth.
Love the podcast thanks
Thanks, Neil!
Its pretty simple, bluetooth doesnt have the bandwidth for high quality audio. Not apples problem. Also using airpods is not about quality its about convienience. An audiophile would never use airpods for critical listening, its all a mute point.
Anybody that has bought Air pods max and expected to be able to hear lossless audio with them is either very naive or is not actually interested in audio quality, because this was never going to be the case, I bought a pair of them and never through i would be able to hear lossless through them because first and foremost they are bluetooth headphones ZERO bluetooth headphones can hear hi fidelity audio.
Apple is also adding spatial audio to apple music which the air pods max will be able to listen to wirelessly which imo is more exciting than lossless audio.
APPLe are definitely not reinventing how streamed music is listened to you will atm at least always need a DAC and cable in order to hear hifi audio.
Spatial audio lowers the quality of your music. Just saying
@@ag4640 lowers the quality of what an already compressed file ? the sound signature changes but the files "quality" is the same
@@137Furon No, I'm not talking about the files, I'm talking about the information within (the music). Spatial audio is achieved by reducing the dynamic range and cutting down diverse frequencies of the instruments. And it's not a "side effect", literally it's the way to make your ears (brain actually) believe that the sounds come from places where they actually don't come from
Will it work if I plug my phone into my radio in my car? I usually use Bluetooth but I’m willing to use aux if it truly sounds better
Airpods pro plus max will play it.
The rumor is that Airpods can also stream via Wifi..... Apple just need to turn on the 'wifi connection' and we get Apple Music Lossless Audio
The question is: does Airpods Max have the necessary hardware to support WiFi? I don’t think so! Also if Airpods Max supports WiFi, the battery life is going to suck.
AirPlay2 perhaps?
@@davidgory1757 Airplay2 is WiFi, APM is bluetooth
Amazon as given it’s customers HD music upgrade for free too ….listening to it with AirPods , all songs are a bit louder and a bit clearer ….that will do for me thank you !
Hang on. Apple have introduced a free upgrade to their music streaming service that people with the appropriate kit can take advantage of today. For free. No upgrade tier. Headphones that they sold a few months ago don’t support lossless. They didn’t then. They don’t now. Why would anyone be aggrieved that something they bought months ago isn’t compatible with a free (I’m going to keep on saying this) upgrade to an existing service? I’m seriously missing how anyone can be disappointed in this. If you class yourself as an audiophile, then you’re probablly already using a high end amp, dac, etc…no one has had anything taken from them. No one has been robbed. It worked yesterday. It works today.
I say a lot of what you’ve said above in my video, mate. It’s just a bit irritating if you’ve spent north of £500 on a pair of headphones that can’t play back Apple’s own lossless audio. But, as I mention, it gives them room to manoeuvre with the next iteration of AirPods Max. Winners and losers all round, as always.
@@MarkEllisReviews I understand. It wasn’t as much a criticism of you, but people already in your comments and what others have said. But my point still is valid. People bought them with an expectation of ‘a’. Apple have updated their service so now deliver ‘a’ and ‘b’. Your headphones you bought to play a, still play a. Nothing has been taken away. That’s all.
Yeah I total get that, mate. I just understand if people are a bit cheesed off/perplexed by it. Human nature, and all that.
The average person won't notice a significant difference between lossless and lossy, so don't think it's such a big deal. Spatial audio with Dolby Atmos on the other hand is a completely different story.
Agree to a certain extent, but for me, Atmos and Spatial are a bit gimmicky for music.
@@MarkEllisReviews We will just have to wait and see how well apple implements that
It’s more than that. No person will tell any difference between a lossless encoding of a CD and an AAC 256 encoding from the same source.
This has been demonstrated time and time again. I would love to be proven wrong, but proof here requires blind testing with statistically significant group sizes so anecdotes won’t do.
I’m always on the hunt for better audio. But it just hasn’t proven to be the case that it matters.
Some of the terms thrown around in this video aren’t being used precisely or are misleading at best. Modern compression doesn’t throw out the kick of a bass drum, or the trailing sound of a crash, or the breath of a vocalist. Those things are audible, so they remain.
@@MarkEllisReviews Good presentation. Anything that helps more people enjoy music the better off we all are for it. Upsampling or oversampling creates new information based off what comes in before and afterward in an audio stream, while it can lead to higher resolution sound it can also lead to some audio artifacts. I believe it is personal preference considering your equipment, room acoustics, and what sounds best to you the listener. My hope is that Apple's move to lossless will lead to better production and sound engineering values of original and remixed recordings, including mixing for Dolby Atmos which done correctly can be magical.
For the cost of $550 that an AirPod Max costs... you'd be better off getting a good wired headphone like a Hifiman Sundara($350) or Sennheiser HD 6XX ($220 on Drop) and buying a decent Dac/Amp combo for it. That setup will take advantage of the Apple Lossless Audio better than some possible new dedicated to Lossless Audio version of the AirPods Max that might be coming at some point in the future.
True, but you've described a very different listening experience and use case to what the AirPods Max offer.
@@MarkEllisReviews Unless Apple can magically come up with a new wireless solution that can transfer up to 6000kbps (that's about the data rate cap of a 192khz 24bit lossless file, current max is 990kbps using bluetooth 4.2 or higher with Sony's proprietary LDAC codec, and that's barely enough for 44.1khz 16bit CD quality), AirPod Max / Homepods and their future versions aren't going to make any difference in listening experience, in the end you will have to hook them up via wires to get lossless anyway.
What's more likely going to happen is the future AirPod Maxs are going to have a better dac amp built in to support lossless but only through wired connection. Apple iPod might make a resurgence with better dac/amp chips akin to today's mid/high end DAPs. But no matter what they are going to do, wires are going to be required to listen to lossless music.
Ironically, they ditched the headphone jacks on their iPhones many years ago, we might see them being added back.
I really appreciate your info and at the same time I am getting really sick of Apple holding back just to keep there customers coming back. They really better watch or they are going to lose customers to some of the other great technical advancements of other manufacturers. Just my opinion. Thanks. I did sign up to your new podcast and I am looking forward to listening to it. Thank you.
Thanks for listening to the podcast, Ron!
I stopped listening to MP3 in 2005, and PCM in 2113. But it looks like Apple have no plan for DSD, because there is no format as ADSD yet.
2113?👀
@@supersmashmaster43 Do not tell anyone.
I personally don’t care whether I can listen to Apple Music on my BT headphones, as that’s not how I listen to high quality music - everyone know Bluetooth can’t stream CD quality. I really need a way to get the music to my stereo and external speakers. I already have subscriptions to Tidal and Qobuz and until Apple has an API to stream directly to dedicated streaming devices then I don’t see the point. Unless you want to be stuck at your desk listening through a computer and DAC/Amp combo there’s no way for me to listen (and yes, I subscribe to Apple Music already as part of an Apple subscription bundle). Bluesound have already said they can’t stream Apple Music with their streaming devices, and can only use Airplay which doesn’t support anything above 44khz/16bit.
I don't think any real audiophile went on to buy Bluetooth headphones for HiRes, no matter who is selling them. People buy these BT headphones for convenience like being able to walk walk around the house and for noise cancelling. I don't know why people are making a big deal out of this. Airpods Max are airpods, Apple didn't hide that fact, it's in the name. To me it seems like Apple is now being blamed for bringing better quality music to all subscribers for free.
I think what they’ve done with lossless being free to subscribers is awesome.
Why podcast called "eight or sixteen"?
You clearly haven’t been watching enough of my videos 😉
I am pretty confident Apple will release a firmware update to support Apple Lossless on the AirPods Max (wired mode) only. The reason that it won't work currently, is because unlike most conventional headphones, when use AUX cable it's a analog signal end to end, but Apple's cable would convert the analog signal to digital, hence why it's so expensive, then the AirPods Max can only decode compressed AAC signal. Apple Lossless uses ALAC which the AirPod Max doesn't (currently) support. But I believe the AirPods Max hardware is capable of decoding ALAC, it only requires a firmware upgrade to have it supported..... Unless Apple wants to make money and piss off its customers.
From product life cycle point of view, a headphone usually gets updated every 2-3 years, the AirPods Max is merely 6 months old, I doubt Apple will release a service that their flagship product wouldn't support (at all).
Worthnoting that Apple's current generation wireless headphones are also AAC only, meaning it can accept any signal but it will play we AAC compression, they could update the firmware to support ALAC, but the implementation won't be ideal, as Lossless take too much of the bluetooth channel, given Apple's style, I doubt they would do that.
This is my understanding of how it works anyway.
It is not night and day at all. Almost no one will be able to tell the difference between Apples lossy and their lossless. Apple do an exceptional job of their lossy codec.
I dont really know why i watched this video, but i still found it intresting
I dont use music streaming services
one reason being is that it only takes 1 lightning strike to take out my internet (and it HAS happened before, when it happened i was without internet for quite a few days)
and even though i do have a smartphone, i only have a small amount of data, which i dont really use unless i need to (for example if my internet goes down, i use that data to check emails and such, i genrally DONT use the data for any kind of streaming)
same reason why i tend to not stream movies, i instead have a collection of Blu-rays (my Blu-ray collection now takes up an entire shelf)
and its the same reason why i dont use game streaming services
(I tend to store my local collection of music in FLAC)
Admit it you just wanted to gloat 😂😂😂
AirPods Max wired goes from digital to analog and then back to digital.
So that’s why Apple can’t really call it Lossless but they still be played at the same rate. HomePod will help lossless.
Why would I be pissed off? I knew they didn't support lossless when I bought them. If I wanted to listen to "HI-FI" I have Planars with a dedicated DAC/AMP.
Great! I’m glad you’re not pissed off 😊
Something that no one is talking about is that by Apple using regular lossless ALAC for up to 24/192 it means that MQA is pretty much dead in the industry ...
Love your channel and your reviews and congrats on the podcast!!!
Might your love of tech be misleading you a bit on this one? You dismiss spatial audio for music early on and spend most of your review discussing lossless, but I think Apple views spatial audio as the real play here, and lossless is more a footnote. You can see this in their marketing. The video they shared to announce it and the emails they sent out (which is what most everyday, non-tech people-the vast majority of their user base-will see) don’t even mention lossless at all. And the press release on their site which does devotes the majority of the text to spatial audio.
That makes sense to me because spatial audio is precisely what most people will recognise. It’s also the one thing Apple will have that no one else will for the thousands of songs they are launching it with-at least for a while. And that’s on top of the Digital Masters programme they already have going-and I’m far from an audiophile but those who are generally agree that getting the master right matters most, before even the format.
So starting June, for everyone with any AirPods (and vastly more people have regular AirPods than AirPods Pro or Max), spatial audio will bring an instantly more immersive experience they can recognise and even for the music that’s not spatial audio there’ll be the Digital Masters making them sound richer and fuller. Those who do want lossless will also have it, but that won’t be most people, because even if extra equipment wasn’t necessary, the data requirements and inability to appreciate it would remain a significant limitation.
I did buy a pair the AirPods Max by the way, and I’m certainly excited. I love how music sounds right now and am excited that it’ll sound even better. And oh one more thing: Apple does say you can use the wire for lossless but they can’t call it that because it gets converted and back. The wording did give me the distinct impression that the sound will again, be as close to lossless as to be indistinguishable for us non-audiophile types. But I still think that the whole presence of lossless remains a footnote here. If anything Apple botched the marketing a bit by mentioning lossless at all, and they should have just mentioned spatial and left lossless for the main announcement so people stayed focused. Maybe they didn’t want to sound like they were the only ones out of the lossless party was why they rushed to announce it?
Thanks for the kind words, Doc! And just to clarify - I'm not dismissing spatial audio entirely, but I do think it's incredibly gimmicky for music - it's practically a non-existent market for that kind of audio. For movies and TV - great, it has a place, but even that is very small - even compared to the size of the audiophile community. You may some fantastic points - thank you.
Luckily the OG homepod is included in the list 👍
Nice!
If they enabled airplay in the dedicated chips you would get lose less cd quality and if they removed the cap on airplay they could support streaming on networks to say 24bit 384 but all they really need os 24bit 96k unless you have to ups ample for external amps analogue filetrs that's all you need.
I use airway in my house all the TI e don't bother with bluetooth
By the way if they don't do this, I suggest all Airpod Max users start returning their headsets as faulty under warrenty, firm but fair 😁
If Apple's music is actually lossless, because you know how Apple is about telling the truth. Also, Tidal has been very sketchy about their actual quality. Search youtube for MQA and you'll find a couple videos on it.Apple put out lossless for one reason. Loss of money to the other services because they had inferior quality. How are you going to get lossless on the APM when the music goes through a DSP?
The removal of headphone jack is coming to haunt apple now, why in the world did they do it and now iPhone users are confused whether to be happy about lossless music or sad that they can’t use it
Dragon fly Red is better than the black, or Ifi Zen are great DACS
You sound like Jony Ive haha
Nah.... The hairstyle though..
I’m not convinced, wanna know why? He didn’t say “Alu mini um” yet.
£10 pounds for 24 96 or 24 192, is very good value, but so far Tidal and Amazon lossless have not impressed but I will try Apple.