I like starting with a notch filter on the tweeter and an impedance compensator on the woofer. Then build the crossover on top of that. It enables the phase relationship between the woofer and tweeter to be more constant across the frequency range above and below the crossover frequency. In other words, the speaker drivers look more like resistors to the crossover network, so the crossover has a more predictable response. I’ve done this and then built 1st order high pass and low pass, which combined with the notch and z-compensation, acted as a 2nd order crossover quite nicely. Worked super well for my project. Anyway, just something you could try on the software pretty easily and see if you like it or not.
Good approach. Instead notch filter for for tweeter you can use L pad, it also makes impedance more flatten and easy for filters. This is additional reason to do not use single resistor for tweeter before filter, but use L pad after (!) filter. To the filter see easy impedance.
You could always make save points where you think you like the settings, just label the file after what you liked/disliked about it and then continue to work and make new file names. Lots of your own profiles! :)
Very cool vid @Kirby… A challenge I face is that all these crossover design softwares are built for windows only… would be so much nicer and easier to have them browser based for varying users… 😢
Great minds think alike/fools never differ, unsure. Really appreciate the direction you're heading in man - word on the street is you're a very cool dude and this vid proves it. I've learned enough to know, I didn't know enough to know, I didn't know. ✌🏽
This was so great, but basically the software needs specific data from the manufacturer, right? And not all include that, so it will only work on some drivers?
Hola. Hace como 20 años empecé a fabricar crossovers de 3 y 4 vías de 2o orden de manera manual, fabricando también los embobinados con las formulas Butterworth pero desde hace como 5 años empecé con las formulas Linkwitz par obtener una mejor respuesta pero lo que ahora veo con estos softwares me tienen realmente asombrado. Esto es una maravilla para mi. Gracias. Hello. About 20 years ago I started manufacturing 3 and 4-way 2nd order crossovers manually, also manufacturing the windings with the Butterworth formulas, but about 5 years ago I started with the Linkwitz formulas to obtain a better response, but what I now see with These softwares have really amazed me. This is a wonder for me. Thank you.
I downloaded VituixCAD 2, but none of the speaker data I loaded into it shows up on the SPL and Impedance graph. Also, the GUI looks quite a bit different now from what's in this video (this video highlights verion 1.1, which is somewhat older). If you go to the Vituix website, you won't find a download link for their older 1.1 version software. However, if you copy the download link to version 2, then replace "2" in the link with "11", it will download the older version 1.1. And now you can follow along with this tutorial much better. You're welcome.
Many studio monitors are 2 way speakers, and all this may be a reason. Of course then there is the driver itself, the way an enclosure alters it's response, and the room they go in. Speakers. Lots going on! Great video!
Nice video! Real time playing around and having fun with software! That's exactly how it looks like when I do it and is fun to watch. You did a good job in explaining. Unfortunately you forgot one thing and twisted a fact a little: 1) this software takes neither the baffle (step) nor the bass reflex enlosure into account. I asked Dayton Audio the other day how they measure their frequency response data. They replied that they mount all drivers onto an infinite baffle. A small baffle will change the responses and you lose the bass bump you liked. 2) As you say at 23:20 if you increase the value of the resistor you need a smaller cap but you need a bigger coil for the same frequency. But this is only true if the resistor is *after* the high pass. As you can see very clearly at 23:53 the position of the slope doesn't change if you change the resistor. If the resistor was between filter and driver the slope would move to left and right and also the steepness of the slope would change because crossover frequencies of coil and cap change in opposite directions. Some days ago I made a simulation of your project in BoxSim. You can find a perfect and a cheaper version here: drive.google.com/open?id=1amzvyOBJjfB1hwL_pCarYhKDwWbsJUV7 . The 1 inch chamfer/radius on baffle edges around the tweeter is very important in both versions for good balance at every angle. I think that is necessary if you're not sitting in the sweet spot which I would assume for casual listening.
Really great points Marius, thank you! I appreciate you taking the time to model this up. I'll for sure add the chamfer/radius to the front baffle. I think it'll be fun to compare our different crossovers when the speakers are finally built. Thank again for getting involved!
Thanks for your reply, Kirby! No problem! I model up about one project every week and last week I was curious what outcome I could achieve from your idea. BTW: I now added the enclosure simulation of AJHorn, which I imported into BoxSim, to my Google Drive (same link as above). It predicts -3 dB at 43 Hz in 3.5 litres. Because this driver is a little stubborn due to its high voice coil inductance I otherwise couldn't get the response in BoxSim to match AJHorn. AJHorn usually is at least 90% in correspondence with reality, so I trust it more than BoxSim.
Thanks for this video Kirby! This is fun and relaxed addition to my "official" lessons with boring female machine voice by MS :) Video for version 2 with comprehensive off-axis responses 0-180 deg. in two planes could be helpful at this point because new version with free form schematic, OP amps and other parameterized library blocks has been available for few months now. Br, Kimmo, author of VituixCAD
I liked very much your videos, I am building now speakers with DSP crossover, but my target is to replace it with analog. Your video showed me that I can do that easily when I will be ready for that. Thanks a lot. YOU R Great!!!
That dip in the mids at the 21 minute mark is, in my opinion, what a midrange speaker is for. Bandpass something like a 3.5 inch speaker from 300-500 to 3500hz or so and then don't choke the tweeter as much. Either that, or nix both it and the tweeter for a 2" or 2.5" widebander. Also the fewer the speakers, the more on axis they have to be.
I built a 4 way speaker system. Music is in 4 levels for bass for Body, low mid for Warmth, high mids for Presence, and tweeters for Brilliance. I have 8 ohm speakers, but the Marantz receiver must have 8 ohm impedance. 4 speakers at 8 ohm parallel would be 2 ohms and fry the receiver finals. So, 2 speakers in series is 16 ohm, and another set of two for 16 ohm, when paralleled equal 8 ohms. I put the woofer in series with the tweeter using capacitors and coils to get low frequencies to the 12 inch woofer and highs to the 3.5 inch tweeter. The other set is 8 inch low mid in series with a 5 inch for high mids. I have acoustic suspension cabinets. The sound I get from the speakers is crisp and natural. Orchestra music is the most difficult to replicate, and these speakers sound as close to being there as the $1000+ speaker systems will. Yes, there was a lot of engineering used to calculate everything, starting with free air resonance of each speaker.
So I have built a few proven designs and a few of my own full range designs. After watching your videos I really want to try my hand at a full custom design. Keep up the great videos.
reading the ''manual'' it became crystal clear that this software is way over my head. I think the Birds in the 60's had a song about crossover software, it was titled ''eight miles high''. I think my only hope is hit and miss, I wish there was an online class I could take to help a non computer literate guy like me. If anyone has found a solution, please share.
The reason the frequency response of the woofer and teeter don't blend well is bc the teeter and woofer are 180 deg out of phase from each other. One trick to always check is invert the tweeter. Sometimes that help the transition band response to invert the tweeter. This applies to active fillers too.
I noticed this when looking at a GR Research upgrade kit for a Klipsch RP-600M. The tweeter terminal was inverted. That threw me all the way off! Thanks for this clarification.
Where to find zma files for drivers and tweeters? I find it hard to make these. Also I can't understand why only Dayton supply them, it wd be great if SB, Scan etc did this
This software is good for specific brands with datasheets, how about using a speaker taken from garage? The only data you will have is size and inductance. A good software should cover most of speakers.
You need to invert your tweeters phase with that xo alignment. That big hump and dip should have been your giveaway. You compensated with too much overlap but scrambled the phase and impulse response. The acoustic rolloffs are not going to be optimal. Good video on using the softwares features though.
this was a great video, i only wish you would have described the various lines , I eventually figured out the bold grey was the average sound for that build.
You either have to create them yourself by conducting measurements of the drivers, or you use the built-in tool that lets you import the data from images of graph data
Trace the graphs given by the manufacturer, but neither are going to give you the best graphs to work with. Actually assembling the speaker, then measuring the drivers using dats will take into account the fact that they are now sitting Inside your actual speaker. Thats why professional crossover designers, don't start the crossover until the speaker design is complete. You gotta have a speaker to give them for them to give you the best results. Not just drivers.
Great video and great software. After playing around with it for a little while it dawned on me that enclosure type and size can really change the frequency response of a driver pretty drastically so how should that be taken into consideration when designing a crossover? Is that kind of why you recommend tweaks after the speaker is built?
The way Kirby proposes to design the crossover is fundamentally flawed, because he suggests that you use the FRD/ZMA files for the drivers. Not only will the drivers you actually receive probably have a different response, they also will be placed in a box, as you mention. When you design a crossover, you really should take measurements with a measurement microphone of the drivers in the box before you start to design the crossover. If you just use the FRD/ZMA files, your speaker's frequency response will look almost nothing like the theoretical model.
Thank you very much .. you made me seriously consider building my own speakers now ... i downloaded the software and started training on it ... made a couple of nice 2 way crossovers with dayton audio data sheets ( just for fun ) BTW about taking a photo for the nice spots during crossover designing then tweaking again ... you can click ctr-s to save your work then continue tweaking ,so if you want to go back to your nice spot you can return easily that worked for me just fine :)
Thanks a Stack .... I am an Old Bugger already .... :-) :-) :-) , a retired 'Engineer' and do a bit of Audio as a Hobby, Live Christchurch, New Zealand .... I must say that I Really Appreciate all your wonderful explanations .... I am about to build yet another 'Cabinet' pair .... Want to do a Front Ported TL with "Full Range 6.5" Audio Nirvana Ferrite Drivers". Might end up with a little 'Hybrid' TL / Tapered Horn design .... A bit of 'Thumb Sucking' on that one .... :-) :-) :-) I'll be doing a bit of a Binge Watch of your Great vidclips .... All the Very Best to You and Yours for 2021 .... Cheers from NZ
Very usefull video. Very well done. It will help me a lot when designing my future speakers. Back in the days we were just using calculators and books. Gonna be fun.
The resistor in series with the inductor is not an actual discreet component ... It is a virtual component that represents the dc resistance (R) of the inductor ...Gauge of wire determines the amount of power you can pass through it without burning it up ...
It's essential to know how the speaker was measured. If it was measured using pink noise than actually you want the FFT falling down with increasing the frequency. Flat is not a goal in such situation. On the other hand loudness countours say that we are less sensitive to the low and high frequencies. So it us another thing to consider in the graphs. The software seems to be great, but it is essential to know what are you doing with it. Thanks anyway for trying to expain the concept.
way more affordable for normal people : buy a car amp like pioneer mvh s410BT and use the integrated DSP which is absolutely usefull and works really well. You can also buy mtx coax speakers ! they are so well done , the tweeter goes lovely with the midwoofer ! the tweeter is so precised with his phase lens ! the frequency response is about 60-22000hz for those car door speakers but with passive radiators you can easely get 45hz ! You can get close to HI-FI with a setup like this if your ears are well trained
I tried building a few witht with those online calculators and the result was horrible. Finally did a few DIY form Parts-Express and Amazon with good results. Thank for showing why the online calc don't work. They are not a complete tool. Is the the software you are using free or must it be purchased. Looking for to repeat what you have shown.
Ive been using the v2 version of the program. If I hit Ctrl+Z it undos the changes. You can also undo the changes in the optimizer, there is an undo button.
instead of using your phone to grab pictures from the software, why not looking into using "Snipping Tool". It's a small utility built into Windows that do just this and it's really easy to use! Then you can save your settings right into the folders right away and is probably a little more streamlined than the phone approach.. ;)
Why not just save the project before going on with tweaking? And maybe add version numbers to the saved projects. This way you can simply load a previous version if your tweaks failed.
Enjoy the videos...You didn't mention anything about the resistors. Parts Express only sell 10 or 20 watt power handling. I'm putting 90 watts (at the top end) into this crossover. Won't that burn it out??
Hi Kirby,Im a beginner and find that I really struggle with software - I purchased bass box pro,trueaudio and also have vituix which i cant seem to get started on especially when using OEM drivers But I would like to say how Excellent your videos are. You actually break things down and explain how they work for me who's no good with books this really means a lot.THANK YOU. PS Do you have any videos on using speaker cabinet software etc. Many thanks.Mark from UK
Brilliant tutorial Kirby. Never realised this stuff was available. Need to bone up to get comfortable with the software so that I'm not fumbling in the dark with fingers crossed. I wonder if that's why I've always preferred full range drivers. Great stuff, most in-depth and potentially useful of your videos. Cheers from Australia. Martin
There are a lot of Xover design software or online calculator now, back in my day, I keep using 1/(2*pi*freq*r) for basic tweeter Xover and R/(2.Pi.Freq) for woofer, now I nearly forgot how to calculate without software....
Could the hump in the response on the low end be that baffle step response has not been taken into account? How do you know how wide the test baffle the woofer response files were taken on? If the woofer was mounted in say a 2ft x 2ft baffle, there would be very little baffle step response. Then when you mount it on a 6" wide baffle in the finished box, there would be significant roll off on the low end. Does the response files provided by Dayton specify the baffle width their tests are made on?
Hi. Great video. Many many years ago I built a pair of speakers. Two tweeters, two mid range and two bass speakers in each cabinet. I knew nothing about electronics then and still today and asked somebody else to build crossovers for me. The result was a dominant mid range and weak bass and weak tweeter range. Exactly the opposite what I wanted to achieve. I was looking for much more bass and tweeter and very little mid range. I would now like to correct the faulty crossovers. Could you help me with the correct design? Thanks.
I'll have to fiddle about with this software. It would be great for making enhanced crossovers for my Minimus 7's without using someone else's design. So far the best I've done to them was upgrade the woofers and the capacitors for the tweeters. :)
They sounded great when I was listening to them but my stereo receiver is from the 70's. Being old it started acting up when I lasted used it. So I haven't used it for months. I need to take it apart and fix it but I'm a bit afraid of making it worse. I'd love to eventually upgrade and replace all of the capacitors & resistors in it. The woofers I used were Dayton Audio PC105-8's, so I'll have to see if I can get some bass out of them when I'm able to make crossovers. I mainly bought them because they were affordable, looked good, and fit the Minimus 7 boxes without mods. For having no bass they sound fabulous when paired with a subwoofer. :)
Question: noticed you didn’t check for the resistors, such as the 1.5ohm on the tweeter, as well as I assume the resistors the come with the inductors? Is the inductor and resistor 2 separate parts? Thanks so much! Learning a lot
You should check out Xsim, it's free and it's super stream line. It also allows you to save the XO's you build so no more phone pics! It's not good for beginners though, it doesn't build anything for you, like you can't input a XO freq and slope and go from there but I can tell you wouldn't have any trouble. Also, don't worry about importing the off axis responses, it just clutters the graph and you don't really use them to design the XO anyway.
Xsim is great! I was using it before finding Vituix. I've been using this software more because of all the added tools. I haven't played with all of them yet, but I like having them in one program. It's also a little more helpful for new people. The off-axis actually only show up when clicked on, so they don't really clutter the graph too much. Thanks for watching!
kimmosto- I'm not really advertising anything here, I just like the program and thought i'd share some info. That's the spirit of this channel, sharing info.
Hey Kirby how are you. I built these speaker's very similar to them with the same woofers. I ran the 4 ohms woofers in series for 8; ohms. I used a premade Dayton audio crossover at 3000 hz I don't if your crossover plan would work for 8 ohms if so I will buy the plans. I joined and pay a monthly fee for your channel just so maybe I can get some help because I did a beautiful job on them and I want them to sound the best they can. Thanks
Of all the things that prevents me from trying to building 2 way, MTM or 3 way speaker is the crossover, I know that off the shelf crossover r not ideal. But still can't comprehend on how to make one myself. Its the cost of trial & error that keeps me from trying it Still gonna try to learn it. But until I finally managed to understand it, I'll stick with single full range driver for a while.
I realy enjoy you video's, and now i want to buld speakers miself. But i think i have a problem! I download VituixCAD, but Scanspeak do not have the files to add in the program. Is there a way arround it??
this is a cool video except for 1) the program UI has changed and 2) I want to be able to reverse-engineer a proaudio amp I have to change the internal crossovers.
Hey man,huge fan right here!Really loving this series!I ve been meaning to ask you,what would you do if you designed a reference monitor for mixing?In this example,would you add something to eliminate the bump in the low frequencies?Is that enough or am I missing something? Keep up the good work!!!
Yeah, my goal with reference monitors would be for the flattest response possible. I've never built reference monitor specific speaker before, so maybe someone else can chime in with other things to keep in mind. Thanks for watching!
With this design, as he said he wants to keep the cost down... but if you can swing an extra $5-6 dollars per speakers in extra crossover components, you could have a flatter response and the off axis response in the crossover region would be much better. As for the hump in the low end, I guessing that once its in an enclosure it will disappear.
@@attainableaudio7130 Would you say that the mid bass area tends to decrease when the woofer is put in a box? And if so, is that only when inside a room or outside? What type of curve should i aim for if i want it to sound flat in a livingroom type area?
Hello. Can you make a 3 way ( woofer-midrange-tweeter ) flat passive monitor crossover diagram? I will use it for recording, mixing and mastering in my music studio. How do we draw the circuit diagram in a flat way?
So, I bought a behringer ECM8000 compression balanced mic, zoom 22 interface. ive downloaded the crossover software VituixCAD2. i also have live-lite music making software what software do I use to measure the speaker output into the mic, into the software ? 20-20k with graph ?
Great video for those who are starting, the only thing that in my opinion is completely wrong is using manufacturer supplied response files, the cabinet play a too large role to ignore. although you can make a speaker sound ok with them, the chance that something will not sound right is big
If you can't find the data of the woofer or tweeter just use the Omni calculator site, it's fast and easy to use. Only need frequency response and ohm rating.
Hi Kirby. When choosing speakers for a build, I see speakers I think look good. Then I consider my listening practices. Mostly soft volumes but sometimes I like to crank the Emotiva mono blocks loud. I have noticed that some of the tweeters I am interested in are rated rather low. Should I be concerned about choosing a bass and mid rated for 400 watts and a tweeter rated for 60? Will the crossover software tell me how many watts are going to each speaker? Will I just blow tweeters when I crank them?
Clearly states this is just an intro for diyers, pretty sure noone thinks they'll start a world-class speaker company off one TH-cam video. Building yourself a speaker to personally experience and enjoy can even be so much simpler than this. I've had fun making speakers from a paper plate and business cards
@@Onewheelordeal thank you for this. I'm always amazed when people with more advanced knowledge insist on critiquing DIY videos. It's a very basic intro to a topic. It sparked my interest and I will be seeking out more information and resources. Thanks @Kirby.
Hey Kirby, these videos got me started, thanks so much! I notice you didn’t address phase and I’m sure you left this out intentionally. It’s my understanding that a second order crossover will shift the low frequency phase by 180 degrees. Do you just switch the polarity of the woofer to accommodate this? And do you do anything to align the acoustic centers of the drivers?
In theory - yes. In practice - not always. Sometimes the phase response matches better when non-inverted, sometimes it doesn't match at all. Always check under angle too.
If the market is there? These are free programs are they not? That basically means the programmer is likely making nothing off it. I really enjoy making UI (user interfaces), so if you already knew what you wanted I would love to work on a better interface that is more intuitive and much easier to work with. Though I know I am probably quite late in this comment hah... I cant imagine commercial customers make up many of the users of this software. I would think they have inhouse software?
What is the ideal center channel crossover .. I've read you don't want low end bass . for the last year I've been learning to build higher end audio cabinets thing is I'm also a starving artist lol. Using drivers I find at thrift stores .. And any on put on free soft ware would be appreciated
When you get to a point your happy with save it. Then tweak more amd if you make it better save and replace or if you make it worse close without saving. Basically just make save points.
Awesome video been looking for something like this, Pure and a simple way to get started without having to read a bunch of stuff only and calculate with pen and paper!
Hello,i wants to do two ways studio monitors,but i don't know were i get the components,for example the woofers,twiters and components to the crossover, i have this program and i did the flat plane but i don't know ho start...im from dominican republic
Hello, Im trying to cross the Dayton ND16FA tweeter with the Dayton ND105-4 Midbass driver and the tweeter makes the grey combination line super crazy. I cant get the line to be nearly as smooth as in your example video. It looks like a lie detector test. Do you have any advice in this area? Should I worry about it?
Then after long crossover designing, components hunting, spending money, you would end up with your tone control or equalizer adjustments to reduce or to boost up certain freq depend on your mood or taste.
Hi dude. I`m about to change comp. driver from 16 ohm (25watt), in 8 ohm(60watt). Can you tell me, what should i change in my crossover to make the new comp. driver sound well? Thanx.
Hey Kirby, where did you get those lists of drivers? Did you have to download all of them from every manufacturer? Or is there a download link for them somewhere that I missed? Because I can't find them anywhere in VituixCAD.
I think I will never build a speaker in my life, but I still enjoy the videos! :P
This is great. Thanks so much for watching!
build 2 instead ; )
Austin Bauman hahaha ok :P
Eduardo same here
may never build a speaker but may still need to build a crossover
You are a brilliant, knowledgeable, quirky, and extremely likeable audio expert.
Respect, kid.
I like starting with a notch filter on the tweeter and an impedance compensator on the woofer. Then build the crossover on top of that. It enables the phase relationship between the woofer and tweeter to be more constant across the frequency range above and below the crossover frequency. In other words, the speaker drivers look more like resistors to the crossover network, so the crossover has a more predictable response. I’ve done this and then built 1st order high pass and low pass, which combined with the notch and z-compensation, acted as a 2nd order crossover quite nicely. Worked super well for my project. Anyway, just something you could try on the software pretty easily and see if you like it or not.
I will try this for sure. Thank you for sharing your experience! And thanks for watching
You’re welcome. I enjoy ur whole channel. Keep ‘em coming!
Good approach. Instead notch filter for for tweeter you can use L pad, it also makes impedance more flatten and easy for filters. This is additional reason to do not use single resistor for tweeter before filter, but use L pad after (!) filter. To the filter see easy impedance.
WTF use a notch filter?
I tried looking notch filter and impedance compensator up on Parts Express and struck out, is there another name for these parts?
The Vituix software demonstrated has changed dramatically since this video and seems much harder to use. Any chance of getting an update basic guide?
had the same problem XD i just dowloaded an older version 1.1 i think that worked.
@@Phanex cannot find V 1.1
You could always make save points where you think you like the settings, just label the file after what you liked/disliked about it and then continue to work and make new file names. Lots of your own profiles! :)
Very cool vid @Kirby… A challenge I face is that all these crossover design softwares are built for windows only… would be so much nicer and easier to have them browser based for varying users… 😢
This is great... So long as you can find the files you actually need to make it work. Without them, you're out of luck.
Great minds think alike/fools never differ, unsure. Really appreciate the direction you're heading in man - word on the street is you're a very cool dude and this vid proves it. I've learned enough to know, I didn't know enough to know, I didn't know.
✌🏽
I love the FDR parameters. LOL Great dude.
This was so great, but basically the software needs specific data from the manufacturer, right? And not all include that, so it will only work on some drivers?
Hola. Hace como 20 años empecé a fabricar crossovers de 3 y 4 vías de 2o orden de manera manual, fabricando también los embobinados con las formulas Butterworth pero desde hace como 5 años empecé con las formulas Linkwitz par obtener una mejor respuesta pero lo que ahora veo con estos softwares me tienen realmente asombrado. Esto es una maravilla para mi. Gracias.
Hello. About 20 years ago I started manufacturing 3 and 4-way 2nd order crossovers manually, also manufacturing the windings with the Butterworth formulas, but about 5 years ago I started with the Linkwitz formulas to obtain a better response, but what I now see with These softwares have really amazed me. This is a wonder for me. Thank you.
I got a lot out of it. You do a great job explaining things and keeping it real. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I downloaded VituixCAD 2, but none of the speaker data I loaded into it shows up on the SPL and Impedance graph. Also, the GUI looks quite a bit different now from what's in this video (this video highlights verion 1.1, which is somewhat older). If you go to the Vituix website, you won't find a download link for their older 1.1 version software. However, if you copy the download link to version 2, then replace "2" in the link with "11", it will download the older version 1.1. And now you can follow along with this tutorial much better. You're welcome.
Had some trouble finding v1.1, Thanks!
Pure genius. Had the same problem
Many studio monitors are 2 way speakers, and all this may be a reason. Of course then there is the driver itself, the way an enclosure alters it's response, and the room they go in. Speakers. Lots going on! Great video!
Love this series of videos. Yes I've gotten alot out of them thank you.
Nice video! Real time playing around and having fun with software! That's exactly how it looks like when I do it and is fun to watch. You did a good job in explaining.
Unfortunately you forgot one thing and twisted a fact a little: 1) this software takes neither the baffle (step) nor the bass reflex enlosure into account. I asked Dayton Audio the other day how they measure their frequency response data. They replied that they mount all drivers onto an infinite baffle. A small baffle will change the responses and you lose the bass bump you liked. 2) As you say at 23:20 if you increase the value of the resistor you need a smaller cap but you need a bigger coil for the same frequency. But this is only true if the resistor is *after* the high pass. As you can see very clearly at 23:53 the position of the slope doesn't change if you change the resistor. If the resistor was between filter and driver the slope would move to left and right and also the steepness of the slope would change because crossover frequencies of coil and cap change in opposite directions.
Some days ago I made a simulation of your project in BoxSim. You can find a perfect and a cheaper version here: drive.google.com/open?id=1amzvyOBJjfB1hwL_pCarYhKDwWbsJUV7 . The 1 inch chamfer/radius on baffle edges around the tweeter is very important in both versions for good balance at every angle. I think that is necessary if you're not sitting in the sweet spot which I would assume for casual listening.
Really great points Marius, thank you! I appreciate you taking the time to model this up. I'll for sure add the chamfer/radius to the front baffle. I think it'll be fun to compare our different crossovers when the speakers are finally built. Thank again for getting involved!
Thanks for your reply, Kirby! No problem! I model up about one project every week and last week I was curious what outcome I could achieve from your idea.
BTW: I now added the enclosure simulation of AJHorn, which I imported into BoxSim, to my Google Drive (same link as above). It predicts -3 dB at 43 Hz in 3.5 litres. Because this driver is a little stubborn due to its high voice coil inductance I otherwise couldn't get the response in BoxSim to match AJHorn. AJHorn usually is at least 90% in correspondence with reality, so I trust it more than BoxSim.
The snipping tool would also work temporarily to save work. Great video. Thanks!
Thanks for this video Kirby! This is fun and relaxed addition to my "official" lessons with boring female machine voice by MS :) Video for version 2 with comprehensive off-axis responses 0-180 deg. in two planes could be helpful at this point because new version with free form schematic, OP amps and other parameterized library blocks has been available for few months now.
Br, Kimmo, author of VituixCAD
Very very easy to follow, thank you
I liked very much your videos, I am building now speakers with DSP crossover, but my target is to replace it with analog. Your video showed me that I can do that easily when I will be ready for that. Thanks a lot. YOU R Great!!!
That dip in the mids at the 21 minute mark is, in my opinion, what a midrange speaker is for. Bandpass something like a 3.5 inch speaker from 300-500 to 3500hz or so and then don't choke the tweeter as much.
Either that, or nix both it and the tweeter for a 2" or 2.5" widebander. Also the fewer the speakers, the more on axis they have to be.
I built a 4 way speaker system. Music is in 4 levels for bass for Body, low mid for Warmth, high mids for Presence, and tweeters for Brilliance. I have 8 ohm speakers, but the Marantz receiver must have 8 ohm impedance. 4 speakers at 8 ohm parallel would be 2 ohms and fry the receiver finals. So, 2 speakers in series is 16 ohm, and another set of two for 16 ohm, when paralleled equal 8 ohms. I put the woofer in series with the tweeter using capacitors and coils to get low frequencies to the 12 inch woofer and highs to the 3.5 inch tweeter. The other set is 8 inch low mid in series with a 5 inch for high mids. I have acoustic suspension cabinets. The sound I get from the speakers is crisp and natural. Orchestra music is the most difficult to replicate, and these speakers sound as close to being there as the $1000+ speaker systems will. Yes, there was a lot of engineering used to calculate everything, starting with free air resonance of each speaker.
Great video series Kirby! I am learning a lot as I am getting ready to make my own build! I have forgotten so much!
You are doing a great job, thank you.
So I have built a few proven designs and a few of my own full range designs. After watching your videos I really want to try my hand at a full custom design. Keep up the great videos.
reading the ''manual'' it became crystal clear that this software is way over my head. I think the Birds in the 60's had a song about crossover software, it was titled ''eight miles high''. I think my only hope is hit and miss, I wish there was an online class I could take to help a non computer literate guy like me. If anyone has found a solution, please share.
The reason the frequency response of the woofer and teeter don't blend well is bc the teeter and woofer are 180 deg out of phase from each other.
One trick to always check is invert the tweeter. Sometimes that help the transition band response to invert the tweeter.
This applies to active fillers too.
I noticed this when looking at a GR Research upgrade kit for a Klipsch RP-600M. The tweeter terminal was inverted. That threw me all the way off! Thanks for this clarification.
thx bro u just saved me a lot of money
No problem 👍
Where to find zma files for drivers and tweeters? I find it hard to make these. Also I can't understand why only Dayton supply them, it wd be great if SB, Scan etc did this
This was super helpful, thanks kma!
This software is good for specific brands with datasheets, how about using a speaker taken from garage? The only data you will have is size and inductance. A good software should cover most of speakers.
You need to invert your tweeters phase with that xo alignment. That big hump and dip should have been your giveaway. You compensated with too much overlap but scrambled the phase and impulse response. The acoustic rolloffs are not going to be optimal. Good video on using the softwares features though.
this was a great video, i only wish you would have described the various lines , I eventually figured out the bold grey was the average sound for that build.
Where can you get spec files for drivers that aren't Dayton? No other manufacturers seem to have them.
You either have to create them yourself by conducting measurements of the drivers, or you use the built-in tool that lets you import the data from images of graph data
Trace the graphs given by the manufacturer, but neither are going to give you the best graphs to work with. Actually assembling the speaker, then measuring the drivers using dats will take into account the fact that they are now sitting Inside your actual speaker. Thats why professional crossover designers, don't start the crossover until the speaker design is complete. You gotta have a speaker to give them for them to give you the best results. Not just drivers.
wouldn't it have been cool if kirbert told us this? Thanks Moto
Great video and great software. After playing around with it for a little while it dawned on me that enclosure type and size can really change the frequency response of a driver pretty drastically so how should that be taken into consideration when designing a crossover? Is that kind of why you recommend tweaks after the speaker is built?
The way Kirby proposes to design the crossover is fundamentally flawed, because he suggests that you use the FRD/ZMA files for the drivers. Not only will the drivers you actually receive probably have a different response, they also will be placed in a box, as you mention. When you design a crossover, you really should take measurements with a measurement microphone of the drivers in the box before you start to design the crossover. If you just use the FRD/ZMA files, your speaker's frequency response will look almost nothing like the theoretical model.
Thank you very much .. you made me seriously consider building my own speakers now ... i downloaded the software and started training on it ... made a couple of nice 2 way crossovers with dayton audio data sheets ( just for fun )
BTW about taking a photo for the nice spots during crossover designing then tweaking again ... you can click ctr-s to save your work then continue tweaking ,so if you want to go back to your nice spot you can return easily that worked for me just fine :)
I did industrial electronic in college and should took audio electronic. I really learn something this evening. Thanks you Kirby!
That's awesome! Thanks for watching!
Really clear and helpful explanation
Thanks a Stack .... I am an Old Bugger already .... :-) :-) :-) , a retired 'Engineer' and do a bit of Audio as a Hobby, Live Christchurch, New Zealand .... I must say that I Really Appreciate all your wonderful explanations .... I am about to build yet another 'Cabinet' pair .... Want to do a Front Ported TL with "Full Range 6.5" Audio Nirvana Ferrite Drivers". Might end up with a little 'Hybrid' TL / Tapered Horn design .... A bit of 'Thumb Sucking' on that one .... :-) :-) :-) I'll be doing a bit of a Binge Watch of your Great vidclips .... All the Very Best to You and Yours for 2021 .... Cheers from NZ
This is great. Thanks for videos
Very usefull video. Very well done. It will help me a lot when designing my future speakers. Back in the days we were just using calculators and books. Gonna be fun.
This is probably the best video for DIY speakers, I appreciate all included links - thy help to design everything for perfect speakers. Thanks a lot!!
The resistor in series with the inductor is not an actual discreet component ... It is a virtual component that represents the dc resistance (R) of the inductor ...Gauge of wire determines the amount of power you can pass through it without burning it up ...
It's essential to know how the speaker was measured. If it was measured using pink noise than actually you want the FFT falling down with increasing the frequency. Flat is not a goal in such situation. On the other hand loudness countours say that we are less sensitive to the low and high frequencies. So it us another thing to consider in the graphs. The software seems to be great, but it is essential to know what are you doing with it. Thanks anyway for trying to expain the concept.
Thank you for a very educational, informative video.
way more affordable for normal people : buy a car amp like pioneer mvh s410BT and use the integrated DSP which is absolutely usefull and works really well. You can also buy mtx coax speakers ! they are so well done , the tweeter goes lovely with the midwoofer ! the tweeter is so precised with his phase lens ! the frequency response is about 60-22000hz for those car door speakers but with passive radiators you can easely get 45hz ! You can get close to HI-FI with a setup like this if your ears are well trained
Thank you for all the help. Preferably where should our impedance peak or center be?
I tried building a few witht with those online calculators and the result was horrible. Finally did a few DIY form Parts-Express and Amazon with good results. Thank for showing why the online calc don't work. They are not a complete tool. Is the the software you are using free or must it be purchased. Looking for to repeat what you have shown.
very helpful video . If you show me how to import from rew measurement to vituixcad will be greatful.
Ive been using the v2 version of the program. If I hit Ctrl+Z it undos the changes. You can also undo the changes in the optimizer, there is an undo button.
Hi Kirby ,
does the free software used in your video work for Australian conditions eg ,,240volts, 10amps at 50hz
If you don't see any graphs it's because you need to go to the crossover tab and connect the generator (left side) to the driver(s)
instead of using your phone to grab pictures from the software, why not looking into using "Snipping Tool". It's a small utility built into Windows that do just this and it's really easy to use! Then you can save your settings right into the folders right away and is probably a little more streamlined than the phone approach.. ;)
Why not just save the project before going on with tweaking?
And maybe add version numbers to the saved projects.
This way you can simply load a previous version if your tweaks failed.
Enjoy the videos...You didn't mention anything about the resistors. Parts Express only sell 10 or 20 watt power handling. I'm putting 90 watts (at the top end) into this crossover. Won't that burn it out??
Hi Kirby,Im a beginner and find that I really struggle with software - I purchased bass box pro,trueaudio and also have vituix which i cant seem to get started on especially when using OEM drivers But I would like to say how Excellent your videos are. You actually break things down and explain how they work for me who's no good with books this really means a lot.THANK YOU.
PS Do you have any videos on using speaker cabinet software etc. Many thanks.Mark from UK
Brilliant tutorial Kirby. Never realised this stuff was available. Need to bone up to get comfortable with the software so that I'm not fumbling in the dark with fingers crossed. I wonder if that's why I've always preferred full range drivers. Great stuff, most in-depth and potentially useful of your videos.
Cheers from Australia. Martin
Great video but what if you have the TS parms but not the files?Can they be derived with DATS?
There are a lot of Xover design software or online calculator now, back in my day, I keep using 1/(2*pi*freq*r) for basic tweeter Xover and R/(2.Pi.Freq) for woofer, now I nearly forgot how to calculate without software....
A true lifesaver
So effectively a crossover is a physical eq device
Could the hump in the response on the low end be that baffle step response has not been taken into account? How do you know how wide the test baffle the woofer response files were taken on? If the woofer was mounted in say a 2ft x 2ft baffle, there would be very little baffle step response. Then when you mount it on a 6" wide baffle in the finished box, there would be significant roll off on the low end. Does the response files provided by Dayton specify the baffle width their tests are made on?
Hi. Great video. Many many years ago I built a pair of speakers. Two tweeters, two mid range and two bass speakers in each cabinet. I knew nothing about electronics then and still today and asked somebody else to build crossovers for me. The result was a dominant mid range and weak bass and weak tweeter range. Exactly the opposite what I wanted to achieve. I was looking for much more bass and tweeter and very little mid range. I would now like to correct the faulty crossovers. Could you help me with the correct design? Thanks.
Can you do prediction modelling in vituix, so you can get a computer based estimation on what it will sound like. Maybe other programs do???
I'll have to fiddle about with this software. It would be great for making enhanced crossovers for my Minimus 7's without using someone else's design. So far the best I've done to them was upgrade the woofers and the capacitors for the tweeters. :)
Nice! If you've changed out the woofers, you'll probably hear an improvement with a crossover designed specifically for them. Thanks for watching!
They sounded great when I was listening to them but my stereo receiver is from the 70's. Being old it started acting up when I lasted used it. So I haven't used it for months. I need to take it apart and fix it but I'm a bit afraid of making it worse. I'd love to eventually upgrade and replace all of the capacitors & resistors in it.
The woofers I used were Dayton Audio PC105-8's, so I'll have to see if I can get some bass out of them when I'm able to make crossovers. I mainly bought them because they were affordable, looked good, and fit the Minimus 7 boxes without mods. For having no bass they sound fabulous when paired with a subwoofer. :)
Question: noticed you didn’t check for the resistors, such as the 1.5ohm on the tweeter, as well as I assume the resistors the come with the inductors? Is the inductor and resistor 2 separate parts? Thanks so much! Learning a lot
Please do a reverse polarity config of the tweeter if there's a good dip. :) Learned it from Audio Judgement.
Love the videos. Long cast is to keep you from turning your wrist.
Hello Kirby, Nice video! What would the final impedance of the speaker be? (what about if you had used a single 8ohm woofer and tweeter?)
You should check out Xsim, it's free and it's super stream line. It also allows you to save the XO's you build so no more phone pics! It's not good for beginners though, it doesn't build anything for you, like you can't input a XO freq and slope and go from there but I can tell you wouldn't have any trouble. Also, don't worry about importing the off axis responses, it just clutters the graph and you don't really use them to design the XO anyway.
1pdigit xsim is amazing, so easy to use
Xsim is great! I was using it before finding Vituix. I've been using this software more because of all the added tools. I haven't played with all of them yet, but I like having them in one program. It's also a little more helpful for new people. The off-axis actually only show up when clicked on, so they don't really clutter the graph too much. Thanks for watching!
Kirby Meets Audio Thanks for posting! This is a fun channel!
I would not advertise other tools here. XSim is a good program but really limited in many ways compared to VituixCAD package.
kimmosto- I'm not really advertising anything here, I just like the program and thought i'd share some info. That's the spirit of this channel, sharing info.
Hey Kirby how are you. I built these speaker's very similar to them with the same woofers. I ran the 4 ohms woofers in series for 8; ohms. I used a premade Dayton audio crossover at 3000 hz I don't if your crossover plan would work for 8 ohms if so I will buy the plans. I joined and pay a monthly fee for your channel just so maybe I can get some help because I did a beautiful job on them and I want them to sound the best they can. Thanks
Take a picture usding your phone? There is a dedicated key on your keyboard that takes Screen Shots... (Print Screen, PTR SCR or similar)
Of all the things that prevents me from trying to building 2 way, MTM or 3 way speaker is the crossover, I know that off the shelf crossover r not ideal. But still can't comprehend on how to make one myself. Its the cost of trial & error that keeps me from trying it
Still gonna try to learn it. But until I finally managed to understand it, I'll stick with single full range driver for a while.
I realy enjoy you video's, and now i want to buld speakers miself. But i think i have a problem! I download VituixCAD, but Scanspeak do not have the files to add in the program. Is there a way arround it??
great class!!!! thank you
Great info 👍👌
Dude! Thank you! You helped with the light bulb going off!
All my best
Blake
this is a cool video except for 1) the program UI has changed and 2) I want to be able to reverse-engineer a proaudio amp I have to change the internal crossovers.
Hey man,huge fan right here!Really loving this series!I ve been meaning to ask you,what would you do if you designed a reference monitor for mixing?In this example,would you add something to eliminate the bump in the low frequencies?Is that enough or am I missing something?
Keep up the good work!!!
Yeah, my goal with reference monitors would be for the flattest response possible. I've never built reference monitor specific speaker before, so maybe someone else can chime in with other things to keep in mind. Thanks for watching!
Kirby Meets Audio Thank you for the response!I'll try looking more into it!
With this design, as he said he wants to keep the cost down... but if you can swing an extra $5-6 dollars per speakers in extra crossover components, you could have a flatter response and the off axis response in the crossover region would be much better. As for the hump in the low end, I guessing that once its in an enclosure it will disappear.
@@attainableaudio7130 Would you say that the mid bass area tends to decrease when the woofer is put in a box? And if so, is that only when inside a room or outside? What type of curve should i aim for if i want it to sound flat in a livingroom type area?
Hello. Can you make a 3 way ( woofer-midrange-tweeter ) flat passive monitor crossover diagram? I will use it for recording, mixing and mastering in my music studio. How do we draw the circuit diagram in a flat way?
So, I bought a behringer ECM8000 compression balanced mic, zoom 22 interface. ive downloaded the crossover software VituixCAD2. i also have live-lite music making software what software do I use to measure the speaker output into the mic, into the software ? 20-20k with graph ?
Great video for those who are starting, the only thing that in my opinion is completely wrong is using manufacturer supplied response files, the cabinet play a too large role to ignore. although you can make a speaker sound ok with them, the chance that something will not sound right is big
If you can't find the data of the woofer or tweeter just use the Omni calculator site, it's fast and easy to use. Only need frequency response and ohm rating.
Does the software tell you how many “turns” for inductor building ? :)
Amazing videos brother .
Doubt it would be to hard to implement, only math right? Heh
do you have a tutorial without using FRD and ZMA?
But whet you mounted your speakers into box the impedence and ferequency response will be different than during free air measuremnts...
Hi Kirby. When choosing speakers for a build, I see speakers I think look good. Then I consider my listening practices. Mostly soft volumes but sometimes I like to crank the Emotiva mono blocks loud. I have noticed that some of the tweeters I am interested in are rated rather low. Should I be concerned about choosing a bass and mid rated for 400 watts and a tweeter rated for 60? Will the crossover software tell me how many watts are going to each speaker? Will I just blow tweeters when I crank them?
What about baffle step, phase matching, group delay, measurements? Unfortunately it's not that simple as You make it but nice video
Clearly states this is just an intro for diyers, pretty sure noone thinks they'll start a world-class speaker company off one TH-cam video.
Building yourself a speaker to personally experience and enjoy can even be so much simpler than this. I've had fun making speakers from a paper plate and business cards
@@Onewheelordeal thank you for this. I'm always amazed when people with more advanced knowledge insist on critiquing DIY videos. It's a very basic intro to a topic. It sparked my interest and I will be seeking out more information and resources. Thanks @Kirby.
Hey Kirby, these videos got me started, thanks so much! I notice you didn’t address phase and I’m sure you left this out intentionally. It’s my understanding that a second order crossover will shift the low frequency phase by 180 degrees. Do you just switch the polarity of the woofer to accommodate this? And do you do anything to align the acoustic centers of the drivers?
In theory - yes.
In practice - not always.
Sometimes the phase response matches better when non-inverted, sometimes it doesn't match at all. Always check under angle too.
If the market is there? These are free programs are they not? That basically means the programmer is likely making nothing off it. I really enjoy making UI (user interfaces), so if you already knew what you wanted I would love to work on a better interface that is more intuitive and much easier to work with. Though I know I am probably quite late in this comment hah... I cant imagine commercial customers make up many of the users of this software. I would think they have inhouse software?
the software for Vituix when I download, stipulates issues with malware.. anyone experience this?
What is the ideal center channel crossover .. I've read you don't want low end bass . for the last year I've been learning to build higher end audio cabinets thing is I'm also a starving artist lol. Using drivers I find at thrift stores .. And any on put on free soft ware would be appreciated
When you get to a point your happy with save it. Then tweak more amd if you make it better save and replace or if you make it worse close without saving. Basically just make save points.
Awesome video been looking for something like this, Pure and a simple way to get started without having to read a bunch of stuff only and calculate with pen and paper!
Are you using 9dB baffle step compensation?
Hello,i wants to do two ways studio monitors,but i don't know were i get the components,for example the woofers,twiters and components to the crossover, i have this program and i did the flat plane but i don't know ho start...im from dominican republic
I always get caught up thinking about the phase response of each speaker. That must have a big impact at and around the cross-over point.
Hello, Im trying to cross the Dayton ND16FA tweeter with the Dayton ND105-4 Midbass driver and the tweeter makes the grey combination line super crazy. I cant get the line to be nearly as smooth as in your example video. It looks like a lie detector test. Do you have any advice in this area? Should I worry about it?
Then after long crossover designing, components hunting, spending money, you would end up with your tone control or equalizer adjustments to reduce or to boost up certain freq depend on your mood or taste.
Hi dude. I`m about to change comp. driver from 16 ohm (25watt), in 8 ohm(60watt). Can you tell me, what should i change in my crossover to make the new comp. driver sound well? Thanx.
Hey Kirby, where did you get those lists of drivers? Did you have to download all of them from every manufacturer? Or is there a download link for them somewhere that I missed? Because I can't find them anywhere in VituixCAD.