I always think of it like this: Make the keys with one position blanked, file them down one-by-one, and note any depth that opens. Then compare the found depths to your key: -If a position has just one working depth, use that depth. -If a position has two working depth, one of them is on your original key - use the other one. -More than two working depths indicate a more complex (multi-level) master key setup. The resulting key is the master key. No need to try 32 keys. Note: Only works if you have a legitimate user key - a decoded key will likely a mixture of the user and master bittings, so its "inverse" will also contain user bitting pieces, and will not give the master key.
a manager at an employer of mine from years ago, said that masterkeying is for convenience only; it is the organized destruction of security. a way to compensate for that is to use restricted distribution keyways, as well as high security lock cylinders that have a 2 factor security level such as medeco. (other types of 'high security' lock cylinders that operate on different principles are good too.)
In having a look at determining the 32 blanks, you could actually work with 10 blanks, taking advantage of the fact that once you go from the upper cut to the lower, you can't go in reverse, but you could go onto the lower cut the next position over, keeping track of which positions you have already used. The other thing to keep in mind in having found all of the depth combinations, is that not all of them might be valid, due to the Max adjacent cut specification. That MACS could also be a slight problem for finding all the master pin positions, particularly if your original key already has a 0 cut or a 9 cut in a given position. In which case, you will have to abide by the MACS for the neighboring positions, and work around it, like if one position is 95312, then you can't have a blank with 90312. Instead, get a blank cut with 05312, work that pin, and determine what is present there.
thats why a smarter building manager will do something like have electronic access to a buildings main entries where when a entry credential is missing, it can be 'removed' from the system within a very short time from a computer terminal, online even with some systems. then the tenants can be responsible for the keying of their own doors, subject to managements technical requirements.
helping a friend that had an office master keyed. he had no documentation and cannot get it. had to take every cylinder apart. good thing. 4 offices were cross keyed to 3 entrance doors that were keyed alike. 4 offices used up 30 possible 6 pin bittings for the cross keying. One chamber in an entrance doors has 4 master wafers. 2 others have 2 wafers. sometimes you have to take them apart not matter what.
If the master key system is properly made (not always the case) , the change key will not have any bitting in common with the master key. So if you find 1 wafer per chamber , meaning 2 depths per postion , just take the other one than your change key. If it was a GMK system , you will find additional wafers. If the system is a partial position progressioning , you will have positions without wafers , there the cut on the master key is the same as on the change keys. Same goes for rotating constant systems.
I believe the simplest way is just to use a pin calculator that that gives you the bottom pins Master pins stack height and the amount of keys or combinations that will fit it. Lots of free ones online and they even work using your phone
Heard a replay of an interview with you on CBC radio the other day, seems you got somewhat famous since the days I was frequenting the forum more regularly. The pronounce your name thread and socially engineered solution still makes me laugh when I think about it, good times.
Just rekeyed a house for a client in a development that's about 7 years old yesterday. The house had the original Kwikset locks and has never been rekeyed. I realized the original locks were master keyed and in about 5 minutes was able to compare the homeowner's key and the pin measurements and had the master key combination. I could probably make that key and open every house in the development that hasn't been rekeyed. Pretty irresponsible of the builder to do that to the residents of that neighborhood. By the way, I'm not even a locksmith.
If you have access to two user keys, then it's much easier to carry out the process with two different locks. Then knowing the possible configurations of the master for each lock, you should find that only one configuration will open both locks. This greatly reduces the number of keys that need to be cut.
Brilliant explanation, Schuyler! You made it easy to follow your logical deductions. BTW, have you found good locksmiths to be naturally good chess players? Doug San Francisco, CA
@SchuylerTowne Small point, but If you had your 32 master "possibles", and one of them worked on another lock, wouldn't you still have to try the remaining 32 and make sure that no other one worked as well? Wouldn't it be possible that the second lock had a chamber that had the same non-master cut?
Not sure if mentioned, like binary counting, 00000 to 11111 is 32 digits(Keys). Seems like Master Keys I seen when I was young had the deeper cuts, seem like you could file each space slowly down, if it doesn't turn, that space was already at deepest cut? Later I noticed Master Keys having the shallower cuts, better as you can't modify a user key to a Master simply by filing, which is better for the Locker, and not the Locker? Good work
this is why smart building management will not masterkey with 'rank and file' locks. also, it's altogether too easy for some employee to 'lose' a masterkey. its all too often that a management type feels entitled to put a master key on their personal key ring and take it home with them. then they get mugged and keys stolen. perhaps the thief knows where they work or the victim has id in their wallet with their home address or a business card with their work address in it..
@SchuylerTowne The math of this is interesting. What if you have two or three different keys and locks? What about just the keys? If you had enough keys, could you derive the key ##### just by looking at them?
Man that's a lot of key cutting.. Good luck doing that by hand filing. You will need a lot more than one movie. My question is if you have an operating key just take it apart and measure the pins. I can usually derive a master with just 2 or three locks.. Interesting video but too much work for me, not to mention the extra cost of all those blanks..
recommendation for a beginner locksmith set? ive been looking for one, preferably with a case. just not sure what brands or sites i can trust for quality.
You're severely taking the long way. You're making several assumptions that contradict each other. You're assuming the ability to code cut keys, while somehow also claiming in a roundabout way the inability to decode them in the first place. Most locksmiths do simple master key systems by hand. Take this example of how a plug is master pinned up. 53124---KW10 User key example 43132---KW10 Master key example -------------Take smallest number per cylinder 43122
there is a method where you use a blank key to make marks and make a variety of combinations.Than you makes a number of keys and select which right is. Does anyone know how this method is called?
Wouldn't the obvious master be 43516? There wouldn't be a point to using a master pin if it was the same as the operating key. So unless the person who set up the locks was specifically trying to foil someone doing this, it would be the alternate number to the one that matches the operating key.
without a doubt you know what your talking about, tis your subject. I have a neighbour (downstairs same building) who not only stole a set of keys from me (he admitted in a court case last April) but also had a barrel made for his own door. So the end result was his key would fit my lock and his lock, but my key would only fit my lock.How did he do this? To be straight with you the court case is still ongoing and resumes on 1st Sept (the third trial, same case) and this is a minor part. But if you get time I would be obliged to you. Yours sincerely, Mike Fitzmaurice
+michael fitzmaurice One possibility is his lock may have more pins than yours. Let's say your lock has 5 pins, he could have 6. In his lock the first pin(one at the front) could be anything, while the rest are set to match your lock. With that your key could not be used in his lock, while his key would fit both.
For the first pin that was 3 on the user key, don't we know that 6 is the master key, then? Since it's the only other height for that key. If the master key had 3, then they wouldn't put in the master pin, yeah?
That was what i thought. You could just assume the other number is the master one. But I'm not a locksmith so maybe I'm missing some crucial information.
Kind of missing the point? Lets say you rent from a public storage place that has a master key. You can't just disassemble their locks, so all you have to work with is your key and your lock. Using the method in this video, you can derive the masterkey WITHOUT disassembling a lock - something you may not always be able to do without causing suspicion.
Nothing about MACS or the vertical minimum? What a great way to get a key stuck in a lock or damage the lock : / With vertical minimums, say of 2, and bearing in mind the MACS off the bitting table - many of those combinations can be ruled out. You also cut down to the original bitting in your example but obviously you'd miss that one out - and also one level either side of it too as thin wafers are insane and flip in the chamber... it's unlikely at best. And then there's the problem when hunting for that second shear line, that the adjacent positions may need bringing down too - just to get down that far without a MACS violation... which complicates the key trialing scheme considerably. But for the sake of all that is good - never just start cutting and violating the MACS value. That's a n00b mistake. ... and I should know, I'm a n00b : )
That's a great point about getting the test keys stuck! I'm going to take the video down to avoid someone causing themselves that sort of pain. Thank you! 8 years on from making this video, I certainly know better, but haven't revisited my old material in a long time. Thank you again!
This doesn't work because you don't know if there are multiple master keys that work the individual cylinder. Simply because your change key has a #4 cut in position 1 doesn't mean the Master key can't also have a #4 cut in position 1 also. There could be master key levels above the master key you think you have created. There are rules to master keying, and not everyone who pins up a lock follows them. That makes it extremely difficult. You can decode a key in the manner depicted on the video, but simply because you get an alternate key(aside from the change) to turn an individual cylinder in a system, doesn't mean your 'master' will turn a different cylinder in the same system. How do you know which is the change key and which is the master key? You can't if you don't have at least one key. Even if you have the key, how do you know with certainty that IT is not the master? so yes and no, but locksmiths do this all the time. It does work, just not exactly this way.
and you think they want to pay for rekeying the whole building with the attendant problems of reissuing all new tenant/renter keys? lol ! they'll keep silent more often than not, hoping that no news is good news and someone in the building isn't the victim of theft and worse, some type of assault..
![[628] Ultion Euro Profile Cylinder Picked and Gutted](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tH5pYVUHcZ4/mqdefault.jpg)
You explain these potentially confusing concepts so quickly and thoroughly. Brevity is the soul of wit. You have my thanks.
Amazing! Simultaneously interesting, humorous, and informative.
I always think of it like this: Make the keys with one position blanked, file them down one-by-one, and note any depth that opens. Then compare the found depths to your key:
-If a position has just one working depth, use that depth.
-If a position has two working depth, one of them is on your original key - use the other one.
-More than two working depths indicate a more complex (multi-level) master key setup.
The resulting key is the master key. No need to try 32 keys.
Note: Only works if you have a legitimate user key - a decoded key will likely a mixture of the user and master bittings, so its "inverse" will also contain user bitting pieces, and will not give the master key.
Awesome series here! Like other commenters have said, you explain very clearly and best of all, quickly. Thanks so much.
a manager at an employer of mine from years ago, said that masterkeying is for convenience only; it is the organized destruction of security. a way to compensate for that is to use restricted distribution keyways, as well as high security lock cylinders that have a 2 factor security level such as medeco. (other types of 'high security' lock cylinders that operate on different principles are good too.)
Thanks a lot for the clarity in explaining the Master Key
In having a look at determining the 32 blanks, you could actually work with 10 blanks, taking advantage of the fact that once you go from the upper cut to the lower, you can't go in reverse, but you could go onto the lower cut the next position over, keeping track of which positions you have already used.
The other thing to keep in mind in having found all of the depth combinations, is that not all of them might be valid, due to the Max adjacent cut specification.
That MACS could also be a slight problem for finding all the master pin positions, particularly if your original key already has a 0 cut or a 9 cut in a given position. In which case, you will have to abide by the MACS for the neighboring positions, and work around it, like if one position is 95312, then you can't have a blank with 90312. Instead, get a blank cut with 05312, work that pin, and determine what is present there.
thats why a smarter building manager will do something like have electronic access to a buildings main entries where when a entry credential is missing, it can be 'removed' from the system within a very short time from a computer terminal, online even with some systems. then the tenants can be responsible for the keying of their own doors, subject to managements technical requirements.
Awesome video,never knew locks had a top and bottom shear line...
helping a friend that had an office master keyed. he had no documentation and cannot get it. had to take every cylinder apart. good thing. 4 offices were cross keyed to 3 entrance doors that were keyed alike. 4 offices used up 30 possible 6 pin bittings for the cross keying. One chamber in an entrance doors has 4 master wafers. 2 others have 2 wafers. sometimes you have to take them apart not matter what.
If the master key system is properly made (not always the case) , the change key will not have any bitting in common with the master key. So if you find 1 wafer per chamber , meaning 2 depths per postion , just take the other one than your change key.
If it was a GMK system , you will find additional wafers.
If the system is a partial position progressioning , you will have positions without wafers , there the cut on the master key is the same as on the change keys. Same goes for rotating constant systems.
I believe the simplest way is just to use a pin calculator that that gives you the bottom pins Master pins stack height and the amount of keys or combinations that will fit it. Lots of free ones online and they even work using your phone
Heard a replay of an interview with you on CBC radio the other day, seems you got somewhat famous since the days I was frequenting the forum more regularly. The pronounce your name thread and socially engineered solution still makes me laugh when I think about it, good times.
Very informative and worrying, keep up the good work.
Just rekeyed a house for a client in a development that's about 7 years old yesterday. The house had the original Kwikset locks and has never been rekeyed. I realized the original locks were master keyed and in about 5 minutes was able to compare the homeowner's key and the pin measurements and had the master key combination. I could probably make that key and open every house in the development that hasn't been rekeyed. Pretty irresponsible of the builder to do that to the residents of that neighborhood. By the way, I'm not even a locksmith.
Smeado vinod
If you have access to two user keys, then it's much easier to carry out the process with two different locks. Then knowing the possible configurations of the master for each lock, you should find that only one configuration will open both locks. This greatly reduces the number of keys that need to be cut.
Simple Description and great graphics!
Thank you,
If your friend is across the hall you might get away with 11 keys
Brilliant explanation, Schuyler! You made it easy to follow your logical deductions.
BTW, have you found good locksmiths to be naturally good chess players?
Doug
San Francisco, CA
@SchuylerTowne Small point, but If you had your 32 master "possibles", and one of them worked on another lock, wouldn't you still have to try the remaining 32 and make sure that no other one worked as well? Wouldn't it be possible that the second lock had a chamber that had the same non-master cut?
Another superb, informative vid, nice1 Schuyler bro.
Epick clock in backround. Love that sound
Nice description. Thanks for posting.
Not sure if mentioned, like binary counting, 00000 to 11111 is 32 digits(Keys). Seems like Master Keys I seen when I was young had the deeper cuts, seem like you could file each space slowly down, if it doesn't turn, that space was already at deepest cut? Later I noticed Master Keys having the shallower cuts, better as you can't modify a user key to a Master simply by filing, which is better for the Locker, and not the Locker? Good work
this is why smart building management will not masterkey with 'rank and file' locks. also, it's altogether too easy for some employee to 'lose' a masterkey. its all too often that a management type feels entitled to put a master key on their personal key ring and take it home with them. then they get mugged and keys stolen. perhaps the thief knows where they work or the victim has id in their wallet with their home address or a business card with their work address in it..
@SchuylerTowne The math of this is interesting. What if you have two or three different keys and locks? What about just the keys? If you had enough keys, could you derive the key ##### just by looking at them?
Man that's a lot of key cutting.. Good luck doing that by hand filing. You will need a lot more than one movie. My question is if you have an operating key just take it apart and measure the pins. I can usually derive a master with just 2 or three locks.. Interesting video but too much work for me, not to mention the extra cost of all those blanks..
recommendation for a beginner locksmith set? ive been looking for one, preferably with a case. just not sure what brands or sites i can trust for quality.
You're severely taking the long way. You're making several assumptions that contradict each other. You're assuming the ability to code cut keys, while somehow also claiming in a roundabout way the inability to decode them in the first place. Most locksmiths do simple master key systems by hand. Take this example of how a plug is master pinned up.
53124---KW10 User key example
43132---KW10 Master key example
-------------Take smallest number per cylinder
43122
For a great paper on this by Matt Blaze, check out "Cryptology and Physical Security: Rights Amplification in Master-Keyed Mechanical Locks"
there is a method where you use a blank key to make marks and make a variety of combinations.Than you makes a number of keys and select which right is.
Does anyone know how this method is called?
Wouldn't the obvious master be 43516? There wouldn't be a point to using a master pin if it was the same as the operating key. So unless the person who set up the locks was specifically trying to foil someone doing this, it would be the alternate number to the one that matches the operating key.
Well done!
without a doubt you know what your talking about, tis your subject. I have a neighbour (downstairs same building) who not only stole a set of keys from me (he admitted in a court case last April) but also had a barrel made for his own door. So the end result was his key would fit my lock and his lock, but my key would only fit my lock.How did he do this? To be straight with you the court case is still ongoing and resumes on 1st Sept (the third trial, same case) and this is a minor part. But if you get time I would be obliged to you. Yours sincerely, Mike Fitzmaurice
+michael fitzmaurice One possibility is his lock may have more pins than yours. Let's say your lock has 5 pins, he could have 6. In his lock the first pin(one at the front) could be anything, while the rest are set to match your lock. With that your key could not be used in his lock, while his key would fit both.
can you buy key cutting machines?
For the first pin that was 3 on the user key, don't we know that 6 is the master key, then? Since it's the only other height for that key. If the master key had 3, then they wouldn't put in the master pin, yeah?
That was what i thought. You could just assume the other number is the master one. But I'm not a locksmith so maybe I'm missing some crucial information.
somanayr n
Kind of missing the point? Lets say you rent from a public storage place that has a master key. You can't just disassemble their locks, so all you have to work with is your key and your lock.
Using the method in this video, you can derive the masterkey WITHOUT disassembling a lock - something you may not always be able to do without causing suspicion.
only a mastered lock, not all locks have 2 shear lines
Nothing about MACS or the vertical minimum? What a great way to get a key stuck in a lock or damage the lock : / With vertical minimums, say of 2, and bearing in mind the MACS off the bitting table - many of those combinations can be ruled out.
You also cut down to the original bitting in your example but obviously you'd miss that one out - and also one level either side of it too as thin wafers are insane and flip in the chamber... it's unlikely at best.
And then there's the problem when hunting for that second shear line, that the adjacent positions may need bringing down too - just to get down that far without a MACS violation... which complicates the key trialing scheme considerably.
But for the sake of all that is good - never just start cutting and violating the MACS value. That's a n00b mistake.
... and I should know, I'm a n00b : )
That's a great point about getting the test keys stuck! I'm going to take the video down to avoid someone causing themselves that sort of pain. Thank you! 8 years on from making this video, I certainly know better, but haven't revisited my old material in a long time. Thank you again!
This doesn't work because you don't know if there are multiple master keys that work the individual cylinder. Simply because your change key has a #4 cut in position 1 doesn't mean the Master key can't also have a #4 cut in position 1 also. There could be master key levels above the master key you think you have created. There are rules to master keying, and not everyone who pins up a lock follows them. That makes it extremely difficult. You can decode a key in the manner depicted on the video, but simply because you get an alternate key(aside from the change) to turn an individual cylinder in a system, doesn't mean your 'master' will turn a different cylinder in the same system. How do you know which is the change key and which is the master key? You can't if you don't have at least one key. Even if you have the key, how do you know with certainty that IT is not the master?
so yes and no, but locksmiths do this all the time. It does work, just not exactly this way.
master key brought which place
Am I the only one hearing the high pitched sound?
I think so.... hey... maybe it's an aneurysm ; )
and you think they want to pay for rekeying the whole building with the attendant problems of reissuing all new tenant/renter keys? lol ! they'll keep silent more often than not, hoping that no news is good news and someone in the building isn't the victim of theft and worse, some type of assault..
I turned addblock off for you :)
:) that's high praise
That's why you don't use a 5 pin system.
yeah..... I'm gonna go back to lockpicking seems a lot easier
So thanks man
0:55 "A master key in each chamber" What the Heck??
he meant wafer
i figured that :\
1:02
Useful,eh?
yep, much easier
Easy
:19 I thought he was gonna say masturbating
bla bla bla bla bla... starts at 1:02
are you a chor?