First, tyvm for taking the time to produce and share this outstanding video. I was a mechanic for over 25 years. I had the privilege to work with many great techs who also took pride in their automotive education. As you know not all great techs are great teachers and there's nothing wrong with that. To be both is a gift which you have. I hope you keep sharing the knowledge. I promise, you are making a difference. Somewhere some young techs are studying your vids, not only gaining knowledge but confidence which as you know that combination can change lifes. Sorry for the long reply. Take care
Joe Mikos Wow thank you very much indeed. Full disclosure, I am only a hobbyist that enjoys tinkering. Thx again for your kind words. It is most appreciated. Cheers
Thanx Matt. I try not to bore anybody. Sometimes I can tend to drag out too much detail. Finding the balance is tricky, as oversimplification can be a waste of time. Cheers
great wee analysis there ian. ive taken the liberty to share this one to a diag page that has alot of people from beginners to pros. i presume you wouldnt object, should get more views and interest for ur efforts and time to do this. cheers dave
Is this example of a coil operated by a sqaure wave 0/+5v? Does the ground on the 'emitter' just ground the ECU's 0/+5v signal to the Battery or ECU? Do you have a video on coils grounded by ECU ('negatively switched')? ... I've been told my ECU operates the two 'two-pin' coils by grounding them.
This is just a simplified typical 3 wire COP circuit. It is a common emitter design. The 0-5V square wave trigger pulse (dwell) is applied to the base. When the pulse rises to 5V the base forward biases the semiconductor. Allowing the current to flow through the primary windings forming a magnet field. When the triggers pulse drops to 0V the semiconductors turns off, current flow stops through the primary causing the field to collapse inducing the high voltage in the secondary which jumps the gap at the spark plug to ground. 2 wire COP’s usually have a 12V supply with a switched ground. The semiconductor (driver) is within the ECU. There are multiple videos in the back catalogue on COP operation. None of which are 2 wire type. Thx for watching. 🍻
Thanks for this video on COP. Can you offer any opinion on my ideas on retrofit of my 1981 Honda CM400T twin cyl., this has CDI timing box controlling a single coil, that is fed to the 2 spark plugs(it is a wasted spark arrangement - they both fire at same time, one spark wasted during exhaust). The idea is to use a COP like this to replace the expensive complicated CDI box and coil to make what I would desire to be a simpler less expensive system. I would program a microcontroller(like a AVR) to be a controller. I would try to use existing trigger coil system as input, if not maybe add a hall sensor. Try to do advance in a simple means like average RPM measure. The plugs stick out side so I'm thinking I could tuck the COPs under the tank and just extend the high voltage leads. Just pick up some used 3 wire COP's to try this. Any thoughts?
I am afraid I won’t be much help to you. Modifying OEM installations is not my thing. Getting a COP set up to fire is simply enough. Adjustment of the timing relative to load and RPM will require some ingenuity. This video I made some time a may interest you… th-cam.com/video/WJGajqQTuus/w-d-xo.html There is a couple of COP Vids in the back catalogue. Thx for watching. Cheers 👍
Thanks for the really good explanation, this solves a lot for me. I always thought that the the secondary winding should be grounded and not connected to the supply voltage, however you show the secondary coil connected to the supply. Could you explain how this works .
Your absolutely right. Most systems you see depicting the secondary may show both sides grounded (one or both through the plug). My channel’s automotive interests are primarily centred around the Suzuki SX4. The simplified schematic I whiteboarded has been lifted pretty much right out of there workshop manual. Some people have vehemently insisted this won’t work. Maybe…Suzuki seem to see it differently. Thx for watching 🍻
@dj1encore This is exactly how a "Coil On Plug" (COP) ignition system works. The only thing missing is a couple of diodes. One in series with the secondary winding on the positive side immediately after the splice with the primary. The diode would be oriented such that it wouldn't allow current to flow through the secondary winding only the primary. The arrow of the diode would point to the left when looking at the whiteboard above. The second diode would be put in parallel with the primary winding or across the collector and emitter of the transistor depending on the manufacturer. It would be oriented such that current couldn't flow from battery positive to ground. The arrow of the diode would be pointing up when looking at the whiteboard. How would grounding both ends of the secondary winding make sense? Just think about it. When the magnetic field collapses, a high voltage is induced in the secondary. This high voltage is used to create a spark across the spark plug gap. You need a high voltage to jump the gap because air has very high restistance. If one end of the secondary is connected to the spark plug, and the other end is connected to ground, why would the high voltage take the path of very high resistance when it could take the much lower resistance path to ground. I think you're confusing the circuit design of the COP ignition system with the circuit design of some conventional coil and points ignition systems. On some conventional coil and points systems, one end of the secondary was connected to the spark plug and the other end was connected to the ground side of the primary winding. This worked because at the same time the points opened, the magnetic field started collapsing, so the vast majority of induced high voltage current from both windings was not able to jump across the points. At the very instant the points started opening, a very small amount of the induced high voltaage current jumped the gap between the points, but after that, the condenser, which was just a capacitor, acted like a spring and absorbed a very small amount of the high voltage current, then released it to ground when the points closed again. The very small amount of inducd high voltage current that jumped the points gap at the very instant the points started opening is what mainly caused the points to wear out. Just to be clear, the condenser did not allow current to flow through it. It only acted like a spring to absorb and then release. Here's a link to a video animation here on TH-cam that does a great job showing exactly how the conventional coil and points ignition system works. th-cam.com/video/TqQE0xkCJ8c/w-d-xo.htmlsi=R5TeVjOHzeg_1R9A
ahhh, no. positive on the secondary coil is not tied to the positive on the primary. and the primary doesnt flow through a tranistor or the transistor would be toast in Useconds. this circuit can not possibly work.
You don't know what you're talking about. This is exactly how these coils work. The only thing he forgot is the freewheeling diode that protects the transistor from voltage spikes coming from primary coil. Engineers sometimes put the diode parallel to primary coil or parallel to transistor depending on the manufacturer.
@@freelectron2029 Ok, maybe you're right and I'm wrong. If both ends of the secondary winding are connected to ground, please map out the current flow through the secondary winding and back to the battery negative post for me. You're confusing this coil on plug ignition system with some conventional coil and points ignition systems of the 1960s.
I have a 2004 bmw 530i and I can't find coil on plug ohms winding readings spec in the secondary winding . The coil on plug are 3 terminal and I have 10 M ohms readings on 2 cop, 1.8 M ohms in another one and in the last 3 cop I have OL reading. It is time to replace them??
Resistance checks on ignition coils are unreliable at best. They can break down under H.T. and the plug under in cylinder pressures. Scoping the secondary voltage wave form via a COP probe and primary current ramp is really the only sure assessment method. I understand you may not have this tooling or level of interest...In which case swapping out suspect coils with a known good maybe the most practical approach. Cheers
None that I am aware of. It’s a simple 5V pulse. The width of which controls ignition dwell time. There are multiple videos on the channel detailing this. Thx for watching 🍻
Can’t say for sure... but if the trigger signal is always present (no toggle) it will magnetically saturate the coil. If the field never collapses it will not produce a spark and overheat. The actual on time (dwell if you will) should be very low from a duty cycle stand point. Make sense?
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First, tyvm for taking the time to produce and share this outstanding video.
I was a mechanic for over
25 years. I had the privilege to work with many great techs who also took pride in their automotive education. As you know not all great techs are great teachers and there's nothing wrong with that. To be both is a gift which you have. I hope you keep sharing the knowledge. I promise, you are making a difference. Somewhere some young techs are studying your vids, not only gaining knowledge but confidence which as you know that combination can change lifes.
Sorry for the long reply.
Take care
Joe Mikos Wow thank you very much indeed. Full disclosure, I am only a hobbyist that enjoys tinkering. Thx again for your kind words. It is most appreciated. Cheers
Joe, you know what they say "Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach." 🤣
As a fellow mechanic and youtuber, this is the best i have seen. Well done!
Thank you Sir. Honestly I’m just a hobbyist. Thx for watching 🍻
Great explanation, a lot of detail in a short amount of time. Thanks for sharing
Thanx Matt. I try not to bore anybody. Sometimes I can tend to drag out too much detail. Finding the balance is tricky, as oversimplification can be a waste of time. Cheers
Very good,...its clear explanation how ignition coil working properly. Thanks 👍👍
Thx for watching 👍
great wee analysis there ian. ive taken the liberty to share this one to a diag page that has alot of people from beginners to pros. i presume you wouldnt object, should get more views and interest for ur efforts and time to do this. cheers dave
dave sterl Very kind of you. Thanks a lot. Cheers Pal
@@TheGibby3340 no probs. Its on simplydiag yt on facebook. Public group
Perfect explanation! Thanks for the video it's helped me
Thx for watching 🍻
That is exactly what I was looking for to be explained! Thank you!
Thx for watching 🍻
Very good and simple explanation.
Thanks for sharing.
Thank you Sir & thanks for watching. 👍
your diagram alone solved all my problems thank you
Glad it helped. Cheers...Ian
Is this example of a coil operated by a sqaure wave 0/+5v?
Does the ground on the 'emitter' just ground the ECU's 0/+5v signal to the Battery or ECU?
Do you have a video on coils grounded by ECU ('negatively switched')? ... I've been told my ECU operates the two 'two-pin' coils by grounding them.
This is just a simplified typical 3 wire COP circuit. It is a common emitter design. The 0-5V square wave trigger pulse (dwell) is applied to the base. When the pulse rises to 5V the base forward biases the semiconductor. Allowing the current to flow through the primary windings forming a magnet field. When the triggers pulse drops to 0V the semiconductors turns off, current flow stops through the primary causing the field to collapse inducing the high voltage in the secondary which jumps the gap at the spark plug to ground. 2 wire COP’s usually have a 12V supply with a switched ground. The semiconductor (driver) is within the ECU. There are multiple videos in the back catalogue on COP operation. None of which are 2 wire type. Thx for watching. 🍻
Beauty! Excellent teaching!
Thank you Sir. And thx for watching. Cheers 👍
There is no rectification in this coils right?
Is just raw inductive pulse going
That’s my understanding. No rectifier. Thx for watching 🍻
Thanks for this video on COP. Can you offer any opinion on my ideas on retrofit of my 1981 Honda CM400T twin cyl., this has CDI timing box controlling a single coil, that is fed to the 2 spark plugs(it is a wasted spark arrangement - they both fire at same time, one spark wasted during exhaust). The idea is to use a COP like this to replace the expensive complicated CDI box and coil to make what I would desire to be a simpler less expensive system. I would program a microcontroller(like a AVR) to be a controller. I would try to use existing trigger coil system as input, if not maybe add a hall sensor. Try to do advance in a simple means like average RPM measure. The plugs stick out side so I'm thinking I could tuck the COPs under the tank and just extend the high voltage leads. Just pick up some used 3 wire COP's to try this. Any thoughts?
I am afraid I won’t be much help to you. Modifying OEM installations is not my thing. Getting a COP set up to fire is simply enough. Adjustment of the timing relative to load and RPM will require some ingenuity. This video I made some time a may interest you… th-cam.com/video/WJGajqQTuus/w-d-xo.html There is a couple of COP Vids in the back catalogue. Thx for watching. Cheers 👍
Thanks for the really good explanation, this solves a lot for me. I always thought that the the secondary winding should be grounded and not connected to the supply voltage, however you show the secondary coil connected to the supply. Could you explain how this works .
Your absolutely right. Most systems you see depicting the secondary may show both sides grounded (one or both through the plug). My channel’s automotive interests are primarily centred around the Suzuki SX4. The simplified schematic I whiteboarded has been lifted pretty much right out of there workshop manual. Some people have vehemently insisted this won’t work. Maybe…Suzuki seem to see it differently. Thx for watching 🍻
@dj1encore This is exactly how a "Coil On Plug" (COP) ignition system works. The only thing missing is a couple of diodes. One in series with the secondary winding on the positive side immediately after the splice with the primary. The diode would be oriented such that it wouldn't allow current to flow through the secondary winding only the primary. The arrow of the diode would point to the left when looking at the whiteboard above. The second diode would be put in parallel with the primary winding or across the collector and emitter of the transistor depending on the manufacturer. It would be oriented such that current couldn't flow from battery positive to ground. The arrow of the diode would be pointing up when looking at the whiteboard.
How would grounding both ends of the secondary winding make sense? Just think about it. When the magnetic field collapses, a high voltage is induced in the secondary. This high voltage is used to create a spark across the spark plug gap. You need a high voltage to jump the gap because air has very high restistance. If one end of the secondary is connected to the spark plug, and the other end is connected to ground, why would the high voltage take the path of very high resistance when it could take the much lower resistance path to ground.
I think you're confusing the circuit design of the COP ignition system with the circuit design of some conventional coil and points ignition systems. On some conventional coil and points systems, one end of the secondary was connected to the spark plug and the other end was connected to the ground side of the primary winding. This worked because at the same time the points opened, the magnetic field started collapsing, so the vast majority of induced high voltage current from both windings was not able to jump across the points. At the very instant the points started opening, a very small amount of the induced high voltaage current jumped the gap between the points, but after that, the condenser, which was just a capacitor, acted like a spring and absorbed a very small amount of the high voltage current, then released it to ground when the points closed again. The very small amount of inducd high voltage current that jumped the points gap at the very instant the points started opening is what mainly caused the points to wear out.
Just to be clear, the condenser did not allow current to flow through it. It only acted like a spring to absorb and then release.
Here's a link to a video animation here on TH-cam that does a great job showing exactly how the conventional coil and points ignition system works. th-cam.com/video/TqQE0xkCJ8c/w-d-xo.htmlsi=R5TeVjOHzeg_1R9A
well explained and thank you
Thank you Sir. And thanks for the Sub! I'll try my damnedest to keep the rubbish I post to a minimum. Cheers Ian
Let me have 1 question for you. How can be happened that the same type coil shown different variations of resistant value??? Thank you
Not sure...
are you sure the 2 coils ha a common node ?
That may not be correctly drawn. You’re not the first to question it. Thx for watching 🍻
Excellent.
Thx for watching.
ahhh, no. positive on the secondary coil is not tied to the positive on the primary. and the primary doesnt flow through a tranistor or the transistor would be toast in Useconds. this circuit can not possibly work.
You don't know what you're talking about. This is exactly how these coils work. The only thing he forgot is the freewheeling diode that protects the transistor from voltage spikes coming from primary coil. Engineers sometimes put the diode parallel to primary coil or parallel to transistor depending on the manufacturer.
@@bernardocisneros4402 yeah nah. go back to school bro.
@@freelectron2029 Ok, maybe you're right and I'm wrong. If both ends of the secondary winding are connected to ground, please map out the current flow through the secondary winding and back to the battery negative post for me. You're confusing this coil on plug ignition system with some conventional coil and points ignition systems of the 1960s.
I have a 2004 bmw 530i and I can't find coil on plug ohms winding readings spec in the secondary winding . The coil on plug are 3 terminal and I have 10 M ohms readings on 2 cop, 1.8 M ohms in another one and in the last 3 cop I have OL reading. It is time to replace them??
Resistance checks on ignition coils are unreliable at best. They can break down under H.T. and the plug under in cylinder pressures. Scoping the secondary voltage wave form via a COP probe and primary current ramp is really the only sure assessment method. I understand you may not have this tooling or level of interest...In which case swapping out suspect coils with a known good maybe the most practical approach. Cheers
In the control wire what is the bais voltage if we unplug conoctor
None that I am aware of. It’s a simple 5V pulse. The width of which controls ignition dwell time. There are multiple videos on the channel detailing this. Thx for watching 🍻
waw...!! it its great to solve my problem... why the ignition coil getting hot... when ignition switch on.. my ford lynx 2002
Can’t say for sure... but if the trigger signal is always present (no toggle) it will magnetically saturate the coil. If the field never collapses it will not produce a spark and overheat. The actual on time (dwell if you will) should be very low from a duty cycle stand point. Make sense?
✌️
What if my trigger wire has 12 volts and miss on cylinder
While running or KOEO?