As a 40+ year carpentry contractor, specializing on the outside projects, decks, pergola's, siding, I tried a lot of finishes. Your observations are spot on. No film forming finishes for me. Failure with those products is just too much work to repair.
@@davimaximo6008 I don't have experience with Ready Seal, but I use deck sealers for outdoor furniture. Need to clean and refinish after a couple of years, if in the sun.
Deck sealers I've seen seem to be light penetrating finishes with some uv protection. I've concluded that diluted spar varnish (w oil?) are similar and cheaper.
Tasmania, Australia, and we thought that a polyurethane would be good for a rough cut boarded 4 walls of Western Red Cedar. It isn't, it's horrible, and now we are faced with the huge chore of getting it off :( Sanding is going to be horrendous and will thin the boards, stripper is out of the question, wire wheel on a grinder? Maybe just let it go and be happy when the UV takes it right off, and then give it an oil and pigment! I had no idea that the high UV here would eat through a product that swears that it is UV resistant! OK so we are close to the "Hole in the Ozone Layer" :(
@@dogdooish I'm from South Dakota, US. I don't believe we have a hole in the ozone directly near us and the sun is still very destructive to everything it lights up.
Brother!… I watched several videos, even as a generational custom woodworker with almost 10 years in the field myself. Your video was exactly what I needed to not only retain your given information but to apply what I know to what I am looking to achieve in different outcomes to my projects. Thank you so much for articulating this hands on experience to those of us that are looking for mentors outside of our own circle. This has inspired me to dig deeper into the world of well written video hosts for the trades. Thanks again!
I really like and appreciate how methodical, honest and critical you are with the results. Probably the most useful and comprehensive video on finishes I’ve seen
That was the best review I've ever watched. They were all your pieces and it was a real life test. I got more out of your one video. Then I would have if I watch 10 other video. That was an excellent breakdown thank you!😊
FWIW, I've been using a 50:50 blend of pure tung oil and Epifanes varnish on kayak paddles since 2006. It applies as easily as an oil finish and it provides the same look and feel, but the varnish component increases durability. It does not create a film so it can't flake and it still breathes, which is critical for paddles since they're constantly wet when in use. I have an outdoor bench that I need to rebuild and I plan to use it on that, too. After applying the first coat with a pad, I use 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper to apply subsequent coats. It smooths the previous surface and creates some "tooth" for the next coat to bond to. As with any oil finish, it's important to wipe off any excess with a rag. The result is a super-smooth finish with a beautiful satin luster.
Marc, Could not agree more. I have never had a finish fail due to moisture. Always UV. I love that you set this video up a decade ago. These long term check-ins have been wonderful.
I love using epoxy for other projects, but making pads for the bottom of the feet is fantastic. Do you have a video on the different epoxies that you use?
Excellent pro strategies and analyses. As a Tucson woodworker for decades I have suffered similar strategies and failures. The Hispanic carpenters long ago recessed their wooden outside doors and windows several feet away from the sun and elements. The only finish I have found provided minimal protection from the sun and elements is pure Tung oil which needs recoating as it also degrades. Boiled linseed oil is a terrible finish - it darkens badly as it degrades. Tung oil stays the same color. No auto or wood finish survives harsh sun conditions. I like very much your informed product choices. I wish you continued success. Salud.
Your finished mixture you posted a long time ago with Epiphanes although I always used a different spar finish in the mixture, has held up and is easy to repair. Did a lot of refinishing with it for clients and although don't do that as much many of the homeowners took the formulas and steps and continue to use it here in the Arizona Sun. Still is the best system I have found. I Finished so much stuff with lumber oil, and various others to check the systems also. Your system just has to be kept up but just light sand and refinish keep it looking sharp. Like a yearly or semi-yearly polish. Thank you. I use a mixture of penetrating for other larger projects like cedar or redwood storage shelters, but for gates, doors, outside cabinets, and such best system I have found.
I used Spar Urethane and teak oil for a planter box about 1.5 years ago. It’s sees at least 10 hours of direct sunlight per day. The top is beat and needs sanding refinishing. The legs and sides however look vastly better. So in this case, I think water sitting on the horizontal surfaces, plus sunlight, really is the killer combo for this piece. The vertical surfaces still look newish. I’m in Alabama btw. So plenty of humidity and sun year around.
Very good analysis and thank you for sharing these analysis with the audience. We greatly appreciate your hard work and time invested into the finish analysis video. God bless you and your family.
This is incredibly helpful... years of experience in a single video! For me it comes as I'm forced to remove 8 layers of spar varnish on a slatted oak porch swing. No more spar varnish for me. It took DAYS to remove that stuff! I'm going with a penetrating oil/stain as I know the UV and rain will win out and I'll do a simple re-application every year or two. Thanks!
Thanks for the review of the finished. Steve Ramsey had done a similar review of his old projects and came to the same conclusion: if you want a "maintenance-free" finish, paint it. Otherwise you'll have to do regular upkeep if you want to maintain a certain look. He also had one outdoor project that he didn't apply any finish to, and other than the grey weathered look, it held up really well for years, so no finish seems like the best option besides painting for less work. I see a lot of wood patio furniture reviews that are negative because people complain about the deterioration of the finish or wood because they don't understand that wood requires maintenance.
Killer wood working projects. You are a master. Re. the clear coats in the video, just want you to know that this is the best clear coat video I have ever seen. The entire coatings industry can learn from this video. Perhaps they will think twice when they market their products as low maintenance. Again, beautiful wood work and many thanks for the real truth about clear coats and elements.
The epoxy pads on the legs is a must. I recently refinished my teak bench and found the endgrain on the legs was getting a bit punky. To facilitate drying, I drilled some holes into the bottom of the legs first and let dry for a while. I then poured on the epoxy. A few years later and it is holding up great. I do take it in for the winter though.
I put cedar feet--side grain-- on the feet of my adirondack chairs. Works great, although sadly the construction lumber of the chair itself isn't holding up so well ;-) Thinking cypress next time--what do y'all think of that? White oak too heavy, teak too pricey, same for mahogany, cedar too soft, will I be happy with cypress?
Huge 'Thumbs up' for this video. Full of useful information while being honest about the exact limits of the information. Doesn't claim to have every answer or magic bullets. Just good, useful, experiential information. Well done.
Retired now for 5 years, after 45+ years as a custom furniture designer/craftsman, I no longer have to worry about anyone's outdoor furniture but my own. I have been using "Daly's" products for 20+ years and find no equal to the ease and longevity of Daly's "Seafin", "Ship'n'Shore" for outdoor furniture and "Pro-fin" for interior pieces. Everything from my Adirondack chairs and tables around my firepit to the countertop of my outdoor kitchen in reclaimed redwood deck boards, to the custom wood (mostly mahogany) touches on my driftboat (including oars) have received Ship'n'Shore as a sealer, followed by 2-6 coats of Sea-fin. No surface buildup (unless you desire, in which case, uniformity in application is critical and proper drying times between coats become important, as well.) nor "dirt-grabbing" as with Watco or similar. Might be an alternative to try, or may, after some experimentation, become YOUR go-to, idk. But do give it a try. Yes, it needs "replenishing" every year (with light 180g-320g scuff sanding to clean and provide "grip", wipe down with quick-dry mineral spirits, allow to THOROUGHLY DRY before reapplying Sea-Fin), but ALL OIL FINISHES should be replenished on a regular basis, my mantra to my clients ALWAYS !!! Good luck to all on your outdoor wooden objects, but never EVER think that once you have applied a finish (regardless of type or how many coats) to an "exposed-to-the-elements of nature" article, that you can claim 'job done'.....not gonna be...ever, sorry.
I have watched a number of your videos but had never seen this before. I am in the process of re-working some wood projects in my garden and just stumbled on this video and found it to be very, very informative, thought-provoking, and just plain fun. I guess I need to re-think some of my original finishing plans based on your video which, I hope, will same me some time, money, and effort. Thanks.
Living in the Northeast my favorite way to make outdoor furniture. Use either black locust first choice or White oak. Then I finish them with polymerized tung oil with added a UV protectant. They require very little maintenance I clean them every few years with a stiff bristled brush and spray a few coats of the tung oil on it. they all still look great natural weathering but no wood deterioration.
I made two plant stands from cedar. No finish, they live outside in the Florida sun and rain. After a number of years, started to look dingy with some green algea growing on it. Cleaned them with a pressure washer, and the look good as new.
Thanks for revisiting these projects. I used deck/fence stain on my cedar BBQ cart, pretty much worthless, flaking off, should have left it raw wood. I agree on no more solid tops anymore too, water needs to drain off instead of pooling.
Tons of useful information in this video, Thanks! Question for you - I live among trees in the NJ Pine Barrens with morning sun on the front of my home. I just painted my home black, all of it. Now I am adding cedar headers over the garage door and two large windows rough side out and would like to finish them without adding color. This is where your video comes in. You mention you will use a "non-film forming finish" and I hope you can tell me more about what products might fit that description. Are you talking marine varnishes, oils, or? I would like a bit of shine, but not much. I'd appreciate any feedback!
Wow, I wouldn’t have thought about cedar being a problem but it makes sense because it’s so soft and especially for furniture which is a bummer but there are other species I love. Thank you for sharing, I’m definitely not a fan of film finishes because I don’t want to sand back the layers to fix the piece and I don’t know oil on raw wood does the species justice. I hate stains lol but I can absolutely see why pigments work so well. This was very helpful and good food for thought
Good information! I think the zebra wood shower seat was an eye opener. It demonstrates the destructive power of UV. I've had good luck with General Finishes Exterior 450. I've finished 5 pieces with it for our back patio. Not in direct sunlight or rain exposure. Holding up well.
Marc, have you tried "washing" the greyed wood with a bleach or non-chlorine bleach solution? When I had a pool and a pressure treated deck around it, I noticed that anywhere I spilled a little chlorine, the decking looked like new again. Since then I have used a non-chlorine bleach solution to renew/ungrey outdoor furniture before refinishing - after thor ugh rinsing and drying. Works like a charm and not very labor intensive. Quick and easy.
Really excellent video, thanks! There’s a lot of learning out there that can only be gained with lots and lots of time, and you’ve used it well! Could there be another video documenting the effects of time on joints? What joints became loose outside over time? Dowels, screws, glue, both, joinery, wedges, end grain, with or without sun exposure? Thanks!
Just commenting for something like the Pergola which takes to many man hours to keep refinishing with the wood look. I have a deck that is 33 years old. It is the old chromated arsenic pressure treated wood. The railings were done with Behr's solid stain. The deck flats had to be redone every three years (4 years ago replaced with Ipe), but the railings finish lasts for 10 years. For the railings, no peeling, no issues at all and they still look great. Every 10 years just washed and re-stained, no issues. Deck is in Northeast so subjected to full sun, rain and snow. If the goal is to look decent and a minimal amount of work, you can't beat the solid stain.
I took apart a 50-70 year old 4/4 cedar fence at my last house (Seattle) and planed down a lot of boards (because how often do you get a bunch of oldgrowth cedar). Aside from ground contact, the *most* damaged sections were those that had been painted. The sections that had been stained or where the paint had worn off over the years were actually the best and required the least amount of planing to get to good wood. As best I can tell, the paint trapped moisture under it and caused the wood to fall apart faster. I have no intent to use a film coat on cedar. But also ... talk about an amazing wood for outdoor use -- decades of neglect and I still got a huge pile gorgeous wood for future projects.
Were these damaged painted sections where one board is next to another, and the moisture lingers? And, wherever wood has lost density or gotten punky, is a place for moisture to linger, in order to damage whatever is next to it. Yes, paint can trap moisture. I have seen redwood deck boards, painted on the bottom only, with the layer next to the bottom damaged more than wood above it closer to the free air. These deck boards were near the ground.
Wow. That was a really great video. I have a couple of western red cedar Adirondack chairs that I used Watco Teak Oil on. I've been maintaining them yearly but it's a pain and they still show failure even with only a few months out in the full sun/fog on the Maine coast. I was just about to switch them to a spar varnish finish but now I'm not going to because I don't want the flakey failure that you pointed out. And yes, the epoxy on the feet is a great idea. I had come to the same conclusion that something had to be done to prevent rotting of the feet and my solution was to coat the feet with several coats of Bondo/3M wood hardener. So far, it's worked perfectly. Thanks for the excellent video. Real world results and thorough coverage of all the considerations when selecting and using outdoor finishes.
Interestingly, we have had exactly the same experience here in Colorado with the CPES/Epifanes system. Based on the outstanding results on our front door (oak) back in 2010, which has direct eastern exposure, I used it on some cedar accents on our new house in 2014. The finish had failed completely by 2019. It's all ladder work, but desperately needs to be redone. As a result, for the front door in this house (CVG fir, west facing, but somewhat protected by porch) we used the Waterlox Marine system this time. After two years, it's looking excellent. We also have a redwood fence that we were slow to finish. Used an oil-based semi-transparent penetrating finish. Two years in, it's still OK. I need to try to do a recoat this summer, but it's looking promising. After all this, I tend to agree that the species matters more than we think. The point of the CPES is that it is supposed to protect the wood when the coating develops the inevitable microcracks. But, if the wood is too soft or porous and the CPES fails, the coating can't survive.
I can add another similar data point for the "not-so-rustic" table and benches. I built a set right when the plans came out from cypress and finished with the same CPES/Epifanes. The finish flaked severely just like your "abused" bench photos. One other important thing to note was in the presumably more wet Wisconsin outdoors, I also had significant trouble with the breadboard ends-- or, where the breadboard met the main panel. I couldn't adequately seal the end grain of the main panel there, and the breadboard gave a great crack to hold the moisture. I neglected/abused it for quite a while even when the finish had completely failed everywhere-- eventually the power of the wood overpowered (broke) the breadboard connectors and she turned into quite the potato chip. So this was a case where moisture *was* an issue, but UV also was obviously still a major factor as well. Last summer I finally replaced the top with a homemade "fancy concrete" top that I have high hopes for. The bench tops and bench / table supports were fully sanded down and laboriously coated on ALL sides in a thick film (for a finish, at least) of UV-resistant resin (Yes, this means each piece had to be worked on at least 6 times. Per coat.). I expect the resin to yellow at least some despite the UV resistant claims, but as cypress is already pretty yellow, hopefully it won't be too problematic. Too early to tell how the resin will work out, but I'm hoping it should be fairly durable.
Great video. I’m fairly new to wood work , however I have a pine door and a gate for that sits in full sun most of the day. I finish rhemm in Siskins Cetol about 10 years ago. They have both weathered absolutely fantastically. I live in the UK, literally on the coast of the Irish Sea with constant westerly winds and both items are south west facing. I can really recommend Certol.
Marc, I always wind up at your videos. I appreciate your unbiased opinions and thoughtful approach. Have you ever tried making outdoor furniture with Ipe? Just curious. I built an Ipe deck years ago and i’m amazed at how well it holds up to sun, rain, snow and neglect. I just power washed it with the highest pressure and it came out looking great and ready for oil. I’ve been considering making a table and benches with it.
Two incredible wood species for outdoor use found here in South Africa are Massaranduba (also known as beef wood) and Rhodesian teak. I just had some scrap pieces of those outside against a wall. No finish or anything on them for a good couple of years in African sun and thunderstorms. The colour was still quite beautiful especially on the teak which darkens to a deep rich red.
Sadly, those are cost-prohibitive for most of the world and aren't considered sustainable materials as their demand and harvest contribute to rainforest devastation.
Great info. Thanks so much. I have a special outdoor project coming up and this is going to help. After watching this video. I have made the decision to use White Oak w/Thompsons water seal. Thanks again. 😊
I have some plantation teak I’m using as a under porch cladding (similar to the porch in this video) however my roof is flat and the cladding will see minimal sun but may see some condensation as I live in humid houston, tx. Do you have a product I can look into? Preferably a oil. I’m also worried about the wood greying. The teak is a hardwood and naturally oily. Thanks in advance
Instead of using epoxy I just used titebond iii, let the endgrain absorb as much as it could. Two Adirondack benches (Douglas fir) sitting on the lawn for almost 4 years and no damage to the feet yet.
Thanks so much for this video. I am making some cedar planter privacy screens and was going to protect them with spar- urethane. After watching this video I have ordered some Osmo one coat hs red cedar, this is exactly the product I needed for this project!
We can't buy Sikkens in Canada anymore but Messemer's we can and is similar and it has been a great replacement. My exterior doors are African Mahogany and they weather fantastic without peeling because it's a penetrating stain. South facing I do every year and the others as needed. Just like the OSMO HS it is the easiest product to finish. I use it on my outdoor timber frame and furniture as well. A second coat can be applied and wet sanded for a nice finish if liked
This video has more science in it than any other video on wood finishes I've ever watched. Awesome work! It's a shame you have to wait years to get new experimental data for anything you try.
Great info, Marc! A small data point from Seattle: I built a cedar planter about two seasons ago and covered it with an oil poly finish since it would be outside. Before doing so, I used a trick similar to your 'epoxy feet', which was several applications of thinned-out PVA glue (I think it was Gorilla wood glue) to the end grain on the feet. It sits on a concrete patio and there's no trace of discoloration going up the legs under the poly. I have a thought about top coats: I wonder if an automotive-grade clearcoat finish would fare better? It has a lot of UV inhibitors and is designed to handle extremely hot and extremely cold temperatures out in the elements. I just wonder if it would be elastic enough to account for wood movement without cracking.
Totally agree with the oil rub types, West Texas sun is brutal on wood. Oils reapplied is the only thing I’ve found to be adequate, not spectacular but adequate.
One of my first builds was a red oak swing. I used spar-poly, it lasted about 2 years. I live in East texas, the swing got full west sun afternoons. I burned this project after i was hit by tornado 2years ago this last weekend. A lot of work, I’ll buy one next time and replace it as it rots. Love the show. Started watching when i bought my powermatic 66 tablet saw. Thanks for the vids
Great video! I think I might revisit this a few times when planning future projects. Love the epoxy pad idea. Absolutely blown away by your Star Trek / Star Wars crossover sign.
Hi, I have a boat with white oak and mahogany rub rails. I am taking off the old varnish via heat gun and scraper. I have varnished many times in the past with Pettit Captains Varnish and though beautiful, the flaking in the future drives me nuts. I have used a product called Semco on teak which is a nice sealer but am wondering what else is out there. I know I definitely want to go the sealer route and just re-coat 1-3x a year to keep the wood looking good. The boat is on saltwater. Can you recommend a sealer for marine use? Also the mahogany and white oak have gone grey, can I use oxalic acid to restore to original color without damaging the surrounding paint? Thanks!
Really interesting video! I made a table for the patio a couple of years ago (western red cedar)! It’s made with slats and i put an oil base finish with no film on it (secondo from Prato Verde). The table is still in good shape but I have to give it a light sanding and recoat it each year. It take me less than an hour.
Excellent data. I have not been able to find this depth of empirical data anywhere else. I have a 3" thick red cedar live edge slab I'm planning to use for an outdoor bar top. Yes, a soft wood and a flat horizontal surface to collect water, but somewhat rot resistant. I do not plan for it to last forever and I am okay with some level of maintenance. You now have me torn between going with a simple Odie's Oil finish versus 2 coats of CPES followed by 5 coats of Epifanes high gloss and finally 2 coats of Epifanes matte. I would have thought the latter would provide better protection against the UV / moisture enemy and lower maintenance. Now I am thinking that Odie's may lower initial cost, significantly easier, easier to maintain, and lower cost overtime. I do have a couple deep voids I am planning to fill with West System epoxy. I will also be making a cover for the table. Any thoughts / suggestions on the finish between Odie's versus the CPES + Epifanes combo?
Marc, great comparison. Thank you! Just the information I was looking for. That said, is there any guide, chart, or other source of information relating to UV protection on a scale (1-10 or other) that you, or others, may have seen? Aside from paint or keeping the wood out of the sun altogether, I'm wondering what the best UV protective application, or combination, there is.
I really appreciate the open and honest commentary you give in the video, and I think you're spot on that not every finish is perfect for one thing or another. After several decades of woodworking and using everything from exterior polyurethane to oil-based finishes I agree that thinking about the material and using a non film forming finish usually results in the best long-term experience. 👊🏻
I made a couple Adirondack chairs from cheap cedar fence pickets, so nothing special wood wise, though I was careful to use mostly clear pickets and sections. I had seen film finishes fail, so for the chairs I just used a HD penetrating oil finish with the lightest cedar pigment. They get partial sun exposure and we put them in the shed during the winter. After a couple years, I clean them with a citrus spray cleaner and do another light oil treatment; wiping it on with a rag vs saturating it with a brush. 6 years later, the chairs are just as beautiful as new. The penetrating oil is definitely the best.
PreservaWood. I don’t swear by that particular brand just use it mostly because it is what I have found available at HD. There are others that should work similarly.
@@johnlee7085 this looks great, and well priced in 5 gallon or 1 gallon sizes. Looks like it’s basically an outdoor “Danish Oil”, which is a penetrating drying oil mixed with spar varnish: “Preserva Wood transparent stains and Architect Series semi-transparent stains are highsolids (75%), true oil based stains, based on natural seed oils and alkyd resins.” Thanks for the tip. Also, I wouldn’t hesitate to use it indoors if I wanted a “Danish Oil” finish. This is about 1/2 price of the name brand indoor stuff.
I’d recommend trying it on an outside project before bringing it inside. I think it has a relatively high odor level. Also, IMO, there are other products that easier, work better inside.
@@johnlee7085 Oh, I didn’t mean applying it indoors. I apply finishes in my workshop :). I meant it could be used for indoor projects, like a wooden box, etc. anything you’d want to finish with danish oil. If I was actually applying finish indoors, such as on my floors, I’d definitely use a non-or low VOC product just to keep the odors away from the house.
Thank you. I really like this video. I am afraid of UV and how it causes wood to fade, even indoor furniture that gets light through a window. But what really got my head spinning is epoxy feet that you do. How thick do you make that? Do you drill holes or do anything to make it have more surface area to stick on? What do you do to color it? I’m thinking of some of the 5 minute epoxy, like the tubes of gorilla glue epoxy that you can get in the big box store would be a really easy way to copy your idea. Do you have a video on this?
Great video Marc ! I'm in JeffCo, and am still trying to learn how to use Epifanes. How much do you thin it ? I struggle with quick evaporation, then too runny, etc. Mostly western red cedar, teak, and mahogany. I've watched others use Total Boat epoxy, haven't tried it yet... I have used Cabot Aussie Timber Oil for 15 years on a tiger wood deck, with excellent results. I really like your 10 points, yeah at elevation, UV is tough. Plenty of gray hair here, thanks ! -Rich
Good stuff. I’m new to wood working and haven’t gone into the finished yet. I’m staying away as long as possible lol. It seems like with all the advancements in the world we would have a clear sealer that completely took care of the wood. This is probably a stupid question but, what about automotive clear? It’s pretty dang durable. Just thinking out loud really. I have no knowledge at all about finishes but I can paint with my HVLP sprayer like a pro. Lol.
Thank you I’m working on a 1950s gunstock where they most likely used boiled linseed oil I guess so I‘ve been researching OLD techniques but this is 2022 so decided I would look at newer stuff - at least new to me. Interesting that by the end you came back to the old stuff. Oil and wax and UV. Cool 😎 Ps. Also interesting that men follow #10 and women buy more UV protecting paint products….. 😹
I’m building a garden wishing well for my mother out of cedar. It’s guna to get a ton of uv light cuz where she wants to put there is no shade. What finish or finishes do you recommend I use. I was thinking epoxy/spar varnish but after seeing your cedar table resto but now after watching this vid and seeing the end result of that I’m having second thoughts. The pergola turned out amazing, how is that holding up. And is there any advice you can give me
Hi Marc, After many years of making outdoor projects like Adirondack chairs and tables. The ultimate finish is no finish at all or in my opinion a penetrating finish like Thompson’s or something like it. Simpler is better for me. You’ve used many other finishes that I have not tried. But I do know that film finishes hold up for a while but as you said are difficult to refinish. Thank you again for your effort with this video I’ve been watching you since you started making TH-cam videos and you have become an excellent Woodworker.
Don't know if you are still reviewing comments here, but in case you are, I'd like to thank you for sharing such valuable information. I only wish I had seen it when it was posted! I built a picnic table for my best friend last summer, and made the rookie mistake of finishing it with poly urethane. In hindsight, I wish I had used spar urethane (it was my first piece of outdoor furniture)!!! He bought a fancy winter cover for it, which he recently removed. He informed me that the top, which was left its natural color under the clear urethane, had several black spots on it. The seats, which were similarly finished, were fine (the rest was painted). When I went to see for myself, I believed the spots to be mildew! I'm guessing that the urethane developed micro-cracks from expansions and contractions, and the cover kept condensation against it without a chance to evaporate naturally. The seats were not affected because the cover didn't rest on the surface. I'm going to have to sand and refinish the top, and now I'm trying to determine what's best. I "think" this might not have happened with spar, but I'm not certain. Anyone have any experience with something like this? Or recommendations?
Try cleaning the mildew/mold with Miracle Mist, I'd pour it where the affected areas are and let it soak in and see if it kills it. It's great stuff and really does kill and remove....if it works, I'd then seal up the cracks.
One of Brazil’s biggest designer/architect, Carlos Motta, applies NO finish at all on his outdoor pieces, including decks and stairs. He often uses a Brazilian wood called Itaúba, a very badass Brazilian wood, very resistant and easy to work.
Thanks Marc for the review of finishes. I looked at this video again as I am just about done with a cedar table and wanted to be reminded about the finishes. I'm wondering, though, how you make sure of the leveling of the epoxy feet, from the videos that I have seen you do with this technique it doesn't look too measured or precise. Thanks in advance
It's not very precise. Usually not an issue outside because I've yet to see an outdoor surface that's truly flat anyway. But if you have a major issue after adding the feet you can always sand them down as needed.
Thanks for this video. Very informative. I have a pair of cedar Adirondacks finished in Spar Urethane (Man O’ War, from Rockler) They get a lot of UV and weather/water exposure. I refinished them last year, but wanted to get into a habit of annual maintenance. Is it overkill to put on a light coat of the spar every year or so? And what grit would you recommend to scuff up the surface before applying?
I'd scuff up with 180 or so and reapply. I don't know that yearly is going to be necessary but it wouldn't be crazy to apply a new light coat every couple of years.
I was fortunate enough to be the recipient of a a dock deck full of ipe do to a hurricane. So I have a lot. Made some adirondack chairs etc. Tough wood though. So now I use it for accents or for utilitarian purposes. For the bottom of legs on outdoor furniture I cut and glue (Titebond III) an end cap around a 1/4" thick. This works wonderfully. I know epoxy works as well, but I thought you might be interested in another approach.
I am making a garden gate out of some unknown, rough cut wood studs from a house built in the early 1700's. I love the natual look of this wood and want to keep that if possible. I have not idea what type of oil or coating to place on this for outdoors. It will receive about 75% straight sunlight everyday and mid-Virginia weather. I am okay with it greying and I also like the soft amber tones that an oil finish can produce. Does anyone have any tips? The wood rings are very dense and heavy. And the studs that I am using are ~3x5" thick.
I have a fair amount of Kiln dried 8/4 and 5/4 white oak. I hadn’t thought of using that wood outside. Fancy outside slat-style table like you did, and chairs, soon to come!
What would you recommend for a wood deck? Part of my deck is in full sun, part of it is around the back of the house and gets morning sun and shade the rest of the day. Being in Oregon, we get lots of rain, so the back part gets slippery and green.
Hi Marc, I’m curious if you think an epoxy cap would be a good idea for posts on pergolas/swings? I did a custom swing for some neighbors using PT 6x6 posts. The wood moisture was high at the time so I didn’t want to seal it then, but it’s been a year now. What are your thoughts on treating end grain tops?
Excellent as Always Marc. I have learned so much from you. I always admire your talent , craftsmanship and your attention to detail I see in everything you do. Spot on agree with your assessment. I build wood whitewater kayak paddles and people just have me maintain them. They do get UV of course but the film finish gets gets broken from bashing against rocks. Abrasion from rings and boat contact. This is just cost of doing business when using a wood as opposed to a fiberglass paddle. Finishes and maximising the beauty of wood is my holy grail. Pigment is not easy for me but it does have its place. Thank You
Central Pennsylvania sikkins proluxe. Table top I did has be out for about 3 years at a bar with only 2 coats next month I'm gonna clean and apply another coat. But also using a duckback product and I love it so far but needs yearly maintenance used them for my wooden truck bed. And hell yeah still looked good after 2 seasons then well it's in a barn currently flat beds make a great table for stuff...
Thanks! After I heard the teaser for this video, I held off finishing some khaya outdoor projects. I’ll probably stay with the epifanes for a cabinet that will be out of the sun. I still have decisions to make on the tables, which will get good doses of Virginia sun and moisture.
What a great informative video. I just refinished a teak garden bench for the 3rd time this week. General finishes outdoor oil held up the best for me so far, but this year I’m trying Watco Teak oil. They take full sun for at least half a day. (In NC) If I can 2 years out of the Watco I’m a happy camper.
Thanks for the informative video.... Lots of great info to save everybody time and disappointment. My wife loves the zebra bench and she wants a bench or seat in the shower. Thanks again for the knowledge 👍
I'm thinking of using wood for some outdoor bar countertops. Well use walnut and poplar(because I have it on hand) it will be under a roof won't see sun and no direct rain. Thinking of using osmo uv protecting oil. Do you think that's best and how will it hold up? 10+ yrs?
Although the greying of wood does seem unsightly, it does look like natural wood should. For outdoor products it has better longevity than any other process. Temporary eye candy can be very annoying.
Luckily for me, I like the look of paint on some outdoor stuff--for example, an arbor for climbing (red) roses that sits near a west-facing wall, and is painted with leftover paint from my exterior trim. It looks great and is standing up well to east TX heat & moisture. Mmm, paint! (Although now I'm wondering if I should have done epoxy pads, and if it's even possible to do that now, what with the roses being all well-stablished.)
Hey Marc,great video. Didn’t you build a Big Green Egg table?? How did that fare? I’m building a BGE table myself out of Cedar. What’s your recommendation for the finish? To be honest, I most likely won’t do any maintenance but have it covered when not in use. Also building a pergola out of Douglas Fir. Same question, what to use. Oh by the way I live in Wisconsin. Extreme cold winters and hot humid summers. Thank you 🙏🏻in advance.
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This has to be one of the most descriptive, honest and thorough explanations that are highly approachable and applicable. Thank you so much!!!
Glad it was helpful!
As a 40+ year carpentry contractor, specializing on the outside projects, decks, pergola's, siding, I tried a lot of finishes. Your observations are spot on. No film forming finishes for me. Failure with those products is just too much work to repair.
What do you think of finishing outdoor furniture with a deck sealer like Ready Seal?
@@davimaximo6008 I don't have experience with Ready Seal, but I use deck sealers for outdoor furniture. Need to clean and refinish after a couple of years, if in the sun.
Deck sealers I've seen seem to be light penetrating finishes with some uv protection. I've concluded that diluted spar varnish (w oil?) are similar and cheaper.
Tasmania, Australia, and we thought that a polyurethane would be good for a rough cut boarded 4 walls of Western Red Cedar. It isn't, it's horrible, and now we are faced with the huge chore of getting it off :( Sanding is going to be horrendous and will thin the boards, stripper is out of the question, wire wheel on a grinder? Maybe just let it go and be happy when the UV takes it right off, and then give it an oil and pigment! I had no idea that the high UV here would eat through a product that swears that it is UV resistant! OK so we are close to the "Hole in the Ozone Layer" :(
@@dogdooish I'm from South Dakota, US. I don't believe we have a hole in the ozone directly near us and the sun is still very destructive to everything it lights up.
Brother!… I watched several videos, even as a generational custom woodworker with almost 10 years in the field myself. Your video was exactly what I needed to not only retain your given information but to apply what I know to what I am looking to achieve in different outcomes to my projects. Thank you so much for articulating this hands on experience to those of us that are looking for mentors outside of our own circle. This has inspired me to dig deeper into the world of well written video hosts for the trades. Thanks again!
I really like and appreciate how methodical, honest and critical you are with the results. Probably the most useful and comprehensive video on finishes I’ve seen
love how honest and raw this video is, thanks for making this, super helpful as I'm working on re-finishing my backyard table
That was the best review I've ever watched. They were all your pieces and it was a real life test. I got more out of your one video. Then I would have if I watch 10 other video. That was an excellent breakdown thank you!😊
FWIW, I've been using a 50:50 blend of pure tung oil and Epifanes varnish on kayak paddles since 2006. It applies as easily as an oil finish and it provides the same look and feel, but the varnish component increases durability. It does not create a film so it can't flake and it still breathes, which is critical for paddles since they're constantly wet when in use. I have an outdoor bench that I need to rebuild and I plan to use it on that, too.
After applying the first coat with a pad, I use 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper to apply subsequent coats. It smooths the previous surface and creates some "tooth" for the next coat to bond to. As with any oil finish, it's important to wipe off any excess with a rag. The result is a super-smooth finish with a beautiful satin luster.
Marc,
Could not agree more. I have never had a finish fail due to moisture. Always UV. I love that you set this video up a decade ago. These long term check-ins have been wonderful.
Home Depot deck paint is the best..
I love using epoxy for other projects, but making pads for the bottom of the feet is fantastic. Do you have a video on the different epoxies that you use?
Excellent pro strategies and analyses. As a Tucson woodworker for decades I have suffered similar strategies and failures. The Hispanic carpenters long ago recessed their wooden outside doors and windows several feet away from the sun and elements. The only finish I have found provided minimal protection from the sun and elements is pure Tung oil which needs recoating as it also degrades. Boiled linseed oil is a terrible finish - it darkens badly as it degrades. Tung oil stays the same color. No auto or wood finish survives harsh sun conditions. I like very much your informed product choices. I wish you continued success. Salud.
Your finished mixture you posted a long time ago with Epiphanes although I always used a different spar finish in the mixture, has held up and is easy to repair. Did a lot of refinishing with it for clients and although don't do that as much many of the homeowners took the formulas and steps and continue to use it here in the Arizona Sun. Still is the best system I have found. I Finished so much stuff with lumber oil, and various others to check the systems also. Your system just has to be kept up but just light sand and refinish keep it looking sharp. Like a yearly or semi-yearly polish. Thank you. I use a mixture of penetrating for other larger projects like cedar or redwood storage shelters, but for gates, doors, outside cabinets, and such best system I have found.
I used Spar Urethane and teak oil for a planter box about 1.5 years ago. It’s sees at least 10 hours of direct sunlight per day. The top is beat and needs sanding refinishing. The legs and sides however look vastly better. So in this case, I think water sitting on the horizontal surfaces, plus sunlight, really is the killer combo for this piece. The vertical surfaces still look newish.
I’m in Alabama btw. So plenty of humidity and sun year around.
Very good analysis and thank you for sharing these analysis with the audience. We greatly appreciate your hard work and time invested into the finish analysis video. God bless you and your family.
This is incredibly helpful... years of experience in a single video! For me it comes as I'm forced to remove 8 layers of spar varnish on a slatted oak porch swing. No more spar varnish for me. It took DAYS to remove that stuff! I'm going with a penetrating oil/stain as I know the UV and rain will win out and I'll do a simple re-application every year or two. Thanks!
Thanks for the review of the finished. Steve Ramsey had done a similar review of his old projects and came to the same conclusion: if you want a "maintenance-free" finish, paint it. Otherwise you'll have to do regular upkeep if you want to maintain a certain look. He also had one outdoor project that he didn't apply any finish to, and other than the grey weathered look, it held up really well for years, so no finish seems like the best option besides painting for less work.
I see a lot of wood patio furniture reviews that are negative because people complain about the deterioration of the finish or wood because they don't understand that wood requires maintenance.
#4 on the list. And my take on finishing. Just putting on more oil sort of works. At least it doesn't fail.... fail spectacularly, that is.
What a comprehensive video! As a brand new woodworker, I find finishes to be the biggest learning curve I have to achieve.
Killer wood working projects. You are a master. Re. the clear coats in the video, just want you to know that this is the best clear coat video I have ever seen. The entire coatings industry can learn from this video. Perhaps they will think twice when they market their products as low maintenance. Again, beautiful wood work and many thanks for the real truth about clear coats and elements.
The epoxy pads on the legs is a must. I recently refinished my teak bench and found the endgrain on the legs was getting a bit punky. To facilitate drying, I drilled some holes into the bottom of the legs first and let dry for a while. I then poured on the epoxy. A few years later and it is holding up great. I do take it in for the winter though.
I put cedar feet--side grain-- on the feet of my adirondack chairs. Works great, although sadly the construction lumber of the chair itself isn't holding up so well ;-) Thinking cypress next time--what do y'all think of that? White oak too heavy, teak too pricey, same for mahogany, cedar too soft, will I be happy with cypress?
Huge 'Thumbs up' for this video. Full of useful information while being honest about the exact limits of the information. Doesn't claim to have every answer or magic bullets. Just good, useful, experiential information. Well done.
Retired now for 5 years, after 45+ years as a custom furniture designer/craftsman, I no longer have to worry about anyone's outdoor furniture but my own.
I have been using "Daly's" products for 20+ years and find no equal to the ease and longevity of Daly's "Seafin", "Ship'n'Shore" for outdoor furniture and "Pro-fin" for interior pieces. Everything from my Adirondack chairs and tables around my firepit to the countertop of my outdoor kitchen in reclaimed redwood deck boards, to the custom wood (mostly mahogany) touches on my driftboat (including oars) have received Ship'n'Shore as a sealer, followed by 2-6 coats of Sea-fin. No surface buildup (unless you desire, in which case, uniformity in application is critical and proper drying times between coats become important, as well.) nor "dirt-grabbing" as with Watco or similar.
Might be an alternative to try, or may, after some experimentation, become YOUR go-to, idk. But do give it a try.
Yes, it needs "replenishing" every year (with light 180g-320g scuff sanding to clean and provide "grip", wipe down with quick-dry mineral spirits, allow to THOROUGHLY DRY before reapplying Sea-Fin), but ALL OIL FINISHES should be replenished on a regular basis, my mantra to my clients ALWAYS !!!
Good luck to all on your outdoor wooden objects, but never EVER think that once you have applied a finish (regardless of type or how many coats) to an "exposed-to-the-elements of nature" article, that you can claim 'job done'.....not gonna be...ever, sorry.
I have watched a number of your videos but had never seen this before. I am in the process of re-working some wood projects in my garden and just stumbled on this video and found it to be very, very informative, thought-provoking, and just plain fun. I guess I need to re-think some of my original finishing plans based on your video which, I hope, will same me some time, money, and effort. Thanks.
This is an excellent discussion, presentation, and analysis. Great information. Your science background really shows.
Living in the Northeast my favorite way to make outdoor furniture. Use either black locust first choice or White oak. Then I finish them with polymerized tung oil with added a UV protectant. They require very little maintenance I clean them every few years with a stiff bristled brush and spray a few coats of the tung oil on it. they all still look great natural weathering but no wood deterioration.
I made two plant stands from cedar. No finish, they live outside in the Florida sun and rain. After a number of years, started to look dingy with some green algea growing on it. Cleaned them with a pressure washer, and the look good as new.
I reclaimed some fence boards a neighbor threw away, and I was pretty impressed with how much better they looked after just a pressure wash.
Thank you for all the work you did with these videos editing and timestamping and the transcript.
Glad you like them!
Thanks for revisiting these projects.
I used deck/fence stain on my cedar BBQ cart, pretty much worthless, flaking off, should have left it raw wood.
I agree on no more solid tops anymore too, water needs to drain off instead of pooling.
Hey Marc, Your finishing videos are the ones I pay the most attention to. Thanks!
God bless you! You’ve made my life complete. Thank you for sharing your experience and wisdom
It's a crime this video doesn't have more views. SUPER useful info.
Very informative and observing review. Loved the real pieces and observation over time.
Thanks for sharing!
Tons of useful information in this video, Thanks! Question for you - I live among trees in the NJ Pine Barrens with morning sun on the front of my home. I just painted my home black, all of it. Now I am adding cedar headers over the garage door and two large windows rough side out and would like to finish them without adding color. This is where your video comes in. You mention you will use a "non-film forming finish" and I hope you can tell me more about what products might fit that description. Are you talking marine varnishes, oils, or? I would like a bit of shine, but not much. I'd appreciate any feedback!
Wow, I wouldn’t have thought about cedar being a problem but it makes sense because it’s so soft and especially for furniture which is a bummer but there are other species I love. Thank you for sharing, I’m definitely not a fan of film finishes because I don’t want to sand back the layers to fix the piece and I don’t know oil on raw wood does the species justice. I hate stains lol but I can absolutely see why pigments work so well. This was very helpful and good food for thought
Good information! I think the zebra wood shower seat was an eye opener. It demonstrates the destructive power of UV. I've had good luck with General Finishes Exterior 450. I've finished 5 pieces with it for our back patio. Not in direct sunlight or rain exposure. Holding up well.
THANK you Marc! Excellent timing. I especially liked #10, but you should have added hair loss. Always a but....
Marc, have you tried "washing" the greyed wood with a bleach or non-chlorine bleach solution? When I had a pool and a pressure treated deck around it, I noticed that anywhere I spilled a little chlorine, the decking looked like new again. Since then I have used a non-chlorine bleach solution to renew/ungrey outdoor furniture before refinishing - after thor ugh rinsing and drying. Works like a charm and not very labor intensive. Quick and easy.
Really excellent video, thanks! There’s a lot of learning out there that can only be gained with lots and lots of time, and you’ve used it well! Could there be another video documenting the effects of time on joints? What joints became loose outside over time? Dowels, screws, glue, both, joinery, wedges, end grain, with or without sun exposure? Thanks!
Great post!! Was really looking forward to see how the CPES held up, and great conclusions at the end. Very useful
Just commenting for something like the Pergola which takes to many man hours to keep refinishing with the wood look. I have a deck that is 33 years old. It is the old chromated arsenic pressure treated wood. The railings were done with Behr's solid stain. The deck flats had to be redone every three years (4 years ago replaced with Ipe), but the railings finish lasts for 10 years. For the railings, no peeling, no issues at all and they still look great. Every 10 years just washed and re-stained, no issues. Deck is in Northeast so subjected to full sun, rain and snow. If the goal is to look decent and a minimal amount of work, you can't beat the solid stain.
I took apart a 50-70 year old 4/4 cedar fence at my last house (Seattle) and planed down a lot of boards (because how often do you get a bunch of oldgrowth cedar). Aside from ground contact, the *most* damaged sections were those that had been painted. The sections that had been stained or where the paint had worn off over the years were actually the best and required the least amount of planing to get to good wood. As best I can tell, the paint trapped moisture under it and caused the wood to fall apart faster. I have no intent to use a film coat on cedar. But also ... talk about an amazing wood for outdoor use -- decades of neglect and I still got a huge pile gorgeous wood for future projects.
Were these damaged painted sections where one board is next to another, and the moisture lingers? And, wherever wood has lost density or gotten punky, is a place for moisture to linger, in order to damage whatever is next to it.
Yes, paint can trap moisture. I have seen redwood deck boards, painted on the bottom only, with the layer next to the bottom damaged more than wood above it closer to the free air. These deck boards were near the ground.
Wow. That was a really great video. I have a couple of western red cedar Adirondack chairs that I used Watco Teak Oil on. I've been maintaining them yearly but it's a pain and they still show failure even with only a few months out in the full sun/fog on the Maine coast. I was just about to switch them to a spar varnish finish but now I'm not going to because I don't want the flakey failure that you pointed out. And yes, the epoxy on the feet is a great idea. I had come to the same conclusion that something had to be done to prevent rotting of the feet and my solution was to coat the feet with several coats of Bondo/3M wood hardener. So far, it's worked perfectly. Thanks for the excellent video. Real world results and thorough coverage of all the considerations when selecting and using outdoor finishes.
Interestingly, we have had exactly the same experience here in Colorado with the CPES/Epifanes system. Based on the outstanding results on our front door (oak) back in 2010, which has direct eastern exposure, I used it on some cedar accents on our new house in 2014. The finish had failed completely by 2019. It's all ladder work, but desperately needs to be redone.
As a result, for the front door in this house (CVG fir, west facing, but somewhat protected by porch) we used the Waterlox Marine system this time. After two years, it's looking excellent.
We also have a redwood fence that we were slow to finish. Used an oil-based semi-transparent penetrating finish. Two years in, it's still OK. I need to try to do a recoat this summer, but it's looking promising.
After all this, I tend to agree that the species matters more than we think. The point of the CPES is that it is supposed to protect the wood when the coating develops the inevitable microcracks. But, if the wood is too soft or porous and the CPES fails, the coating can't survive.
I can add another similar data point for the "not-so-rustic" table and benches. I built a set right when the plans came out from cypress and finished with the same CPES/Epifanes. The finish flaked severely just like your "abused" bench photos.
One other important thing to note was in the presumably more wet Wisconsin outdoors, I also had significant trouble with the breadboard ends-- or, where the breadboard met the main panel. I couldn't adequately seal the end grain of the main panel there, and the breadboard gave a great crack to hold the moisture. I neglected/abused it for quite a while even when the finish had completely failed everywhere-- eventually the power of the wood overpowered (broke) the breadboard connectors and she turned into quite the potato chip.
So this was a case where moisture *was* an issue, but UV also was obviously still a major factor as well.
Last summer I finally replaced the top with a homemade "fancy concrete" top that I have high hopes for. The bench tops and bench / table supports were fully sanded down and laboriously coated on ALL sides in a thick film (for a finish, at least) of UV-resistant resin (Yes, this means each piece had to be worked on at least 6 times. Per coat.). I expect the resin to yellow at least some despite the UV resistant claims, but as cypress is already pretty yellow, hopefully it won't be too problematic. Too early to tell how the resin will work out, but I'm hoping it should be fairly durable.
Great video.
I’m fairly new to wood work , however I have a pine door and a gate for that sits in full sun most of the day. I finish rhemm in Siskins Cetol about 10 years ago. They have both weathered absolutely fantastically. I live in the UK, literally on the coast of the Irish Sea with constant westerly winds and both items are south west facing. I can really recommend Certol.
Marc, I always wind up at your videos. I appreciate your unbiased opinions and thoughtful approach. Have you ever tried making outdoor furniture with Ipe? Just curious. I built an Ipe deck years ago and i’m amazed at how well it holds up to sun, rain, snow and neglect. I just power washed it with the highest pressure and it came out looking great and ready for oil. I’ve been considering making a table and benches with it.
Actually never worked with Ipe. But I hear great things. Should probably try some.
Two incredible wood species for outdoor use found here in South Africa are Massaranduba (also known as beef wood) and Rhodesian teak. I just had some scrap pieces of those outside against a wall. No finish or anything on them for a good couple of years in African sun and thunderstorms. The colour was still quite beautiful especially on the teak which darkens to a deep rich red.
Sadly, those are cost-prohibitive for most of the world and aren't considered sustainable materials as their demand and harvest contribute to rainforest devastation.
Thanks for the info. I’m better informed about my project. This video was tremendously informative and helpful.
Great info. Thanks so much. I have a special outdoor project coming up and this is going to help. After watching this video. I have made the decision to use White Oak w/Thompsons water seal. Thanks again. 😊
I have some plantation teak I’m using as a under porch cladding (similar to the porch in this video) however my roof is flat and the cladding will see minimal sun but may see some condensation as I live in humid houston, tx. Do you have a product I can look into? Preferably a oil. I’m also worried about the wood greying. The teak is a hardwood and naturally oily. Thanks in advance
Instead of using epoxy I just used titebond iii, let the endgrain absorb as much as it could. Two Adirondack benches (Douglas fir) sitting on the lawn for almost 4 years and no damage to the feet yet.
Thanks so much for this video. I am making some cedar planter privacy screens and was going to protect them with spar- urethane. After watching this video I have ordered some Osmo one coat hs red cedar, this is exactly the product I needed for this project!
We can't buy Sikkens in Canada anymore but Messemer's we can and is similar and it has been a great replacement. My exterior doors are African Mahogany and they weather fantastic without peeling because it's a penetrating stain. South facing I do every year and the others as needed. Just like the OSMO HS it is the easiest product to finish. I use it on my outdoor timber frame and furniture as well. A second coat can be applied and wet sanded for a nice finish if liked
This video has more science in it than any other video on wood finishes I've ever watched. Awesome work! It's a shame you have to wait years to get new experimental data for anything you try.
Very timely....I have some outdoor furniture that I built that needs a little TLC. I'll follow your advice.
Great info, Marc! A small data point from Seattle: I built a cedar planter about two seasons ago and covered it with an oil poly finish since it would be outside. Before doing so, I used a trick similar to your 'epoxy feet', which was several applications of thinned-out PVA glue (I think it was Gorilla wood glue) to the end grain on the feet. It sits on a concrete patio and there's no trace of discoloration going up the legs under the poly.
I have a thought about top coats: I wonder if an automotive-grade clearcoat finish would fare better? It has a lot of UV inhibitors and is designed to handle extremely hot and extremely cold temperatures out in the elements. I just wonder if it would be elastic enough to account for wood movement without cracking.
That's an interesting idea 💡
Great idea. Paint thinner? Do you remember the ratio? Thanks
Totally agree with the oil rub types, West Texas sun is brutal on wood. Oils reapplied is the only thing I’ve found to be adequate, not spectacular but adequate.
One of my first builds was a red oak swing. I used spar-poly, it lasted about 2 years. I live in East texas, the swing got full west sun afternoons. I burned this project after i was hit by tornado 2years ago this last weekend. A lot of work, I’ll buy one next time and replace it as it rots.
Love the show. Started watching when i bought my powermatic 66 tablet saw. Thanks for the vids
Great video! I think I might revisit this a few times when planning future projects. Love the epoxy pad idea. Absolutely blown away by your Star Trek / Star Wars crossover sign.
Hi, I have a boat with white oak and mahogany rub rails. I am taking off the old varnish via heat gun and scraper. I have varnished many times in the past with Pettit Captains Varnish and though beautiful, the flaking in the future drives me nuts. I have used a product called Semco on teak which is a nice sealer but am wondering what else is out there. I know I definitely want to go the sealer route and just re-coat 1-3x a year to keep the wood looking good. The boat is on saltwater. Can you recommend a sealer for marine use? Also the mahogany and white oak have gone grey, can I use oxalic acid to restore to original color without damaging the surrounding paint? Thanks!
Really interesting video! I made a table for the patio a couple of years ago (western red cedar)! It’s made with slats and i put an oil base finish with no film on it (secondo from Prato Verde). The table is still in good shape but I have to give it a light sanding and recoat it each year. It take me less than an hour.
Excellent data. I have not been able to find this depth of empirical data anywhere else. I have a 3" thick red cedar live edge slab I'm planning to use for an outdoor bar top. Yes, a soft wood and a flat horizontal surface to collect water, but somewhat rot resistant. I do not plan for it to last forever and I am okay with some level of maintenance. You now have me torn between going with a simple Odie's Oil finish versus 2 coats of CPES followed by 5 coats of Epifanes high gloss and finally 2 coats of Epifanes matte. I would have thought the latter would provide better protection against the UV / moisture enemy and lower maintenance. Now I am thinking that Odie's may lower initial cost, significantly easier, easier to maintain, and lower cost overtime. I do have a couple deep voids I am planning to fill with West System epoxy. I will also be making a cover for the table. Any thoughts / suggestions on the finish between Odie's versus the CPES + Epifanes combo?
Excellent video, thank you. Would have liked to see if you had any data/anecdotes on (genuine) tung oil... but it was not to be!
Marc, great comparison. Thank you! Just the information I was looking for.
That said, is there any guide, chart, or other source of information relating to UV protection on a scale (1-10 or other) that you, or others, may have seen? Aside from paint or keeping the wood out of the sun altogether, I'm wondering what the best UV protective application, or combination, there is.
Fantastic video, Marc!
Thanks a lot!
I really appreciate the open and honest commentary you give in the video, and I think you're spot on that not every finish is perfect for one thing or another. After several decades of woodworking and using everything from exterior polyurethane to oil-based finishes I agree that thinking about the material and using a non film forming finish usually results in the best long-term experience. 👊🏻
I made a couple Adirondack chairs from cheap cedar fence pickets, so nothing special wood wise, though I was careful to use mostly clear pickets and sections. I had seen film finishes fail, so for the chairs I just used a HD penetrating oil finish with the lightest cedar pigment. They get partial sun exposure and we put them in the shed during the winter. After a couple years, I clean them with a citrus spray cleaner and do another light oil treatment; wiping it on with a rag vs saturating it with a brush. 6 years later, the chairs are just as beautiful as new. The penetrating oil is definitely the best.
What penetrating oil do you use?
PreservaWood.
I don’t swear by that particular brand just use it mostly because it is what I have found available at HD. There are others that should work similarly.
@@johnlee7085 this looks great, and well priced in 5 gallon or 1 gallon sizes. Looks like it’s basically an outdoor “Danish Oil”, which is a penetrating drying oil mixed with spar varnish: “Preserva Wood transparent stains and Architect Series semi-transparent stains are highsolids (75%), true oil based stains, based on natural seed oils and alkyd resins.” Thanks for the tip. Also, I wouldn’t hesitate to use it indoors if I wanted a “Danish Oil” finish. This is about 1/2 price of the name brand indoor stuff.
I’d recommend trying it on an outside project before bringing it inside. I think it has a relatively high odor level. Also, IMO, there are other products that easier, work better inside.
@@johnlee7085 Oh, I didn’t mean applying it indoors. I apply finishes in my workshop :). I meant it could be used for indoor projects, like a wooden box, etc. anything you’d want to finish with danish oil. If I was actually applying finish indoors, such as on my floors, I’d definitely use a non-or low VOC product just to keep the odors away from the house.
Thank you. I really like this video. I am afraid of UV and how it causes wood to fade, even indoor furniture that gets light through a window. But what really got my head spinning is epoxy feet that you do. How thick do you make that? Do you drill holes or do anything to make it have more surface area to stick on? What do you do to color it? I’m thinking of some of the 5 minute epoxy, like the tubes of gorilla glue epoxy that you can get in the big box store would be a really easy way to copy your idea. Do you have a video on this?
Fantastic video, thank you a bunch for your multi-year history of each finish and wood type.
Great video Marc ! I'm in JeffCo, and am still trying to learn how to use Epifanes. How much do you thin it ? I struggle with quick evaporation, then too runny, etc. Mostly western red cedar, teak, and mahogany. I've watched others use Total Boat epoxy, haven't tried it yet... I have used Cabot Aussie Timber Oil for 15 years on a tiger wood deck, with excellent results. I really like your 10 points, yeah at elevation, UV is tough. Plenty of gray hair here, thanks ! -Rich
Good stuff. I’m new to wood working and haven’t gone into the finished yet. I’m staying away as long as possible lol. It seems like with all the advancements in the world we would have a clear sealer that completely took care of the wood. This is probably a stupid question but, what about automotive clear? It’s pretty dang durable. Just thinking out loud really. I have no knowledge at all about finishes but I can paint with my HVLP sprayer like a pro. Lol.
Great thinking. I hope he answers this.
Such great ral life data points. I’ve used cykens in the past but none of the others. Thanks!
Thank you
I’m working on a 1950s gunstock where they most likely used boiled linseed oil I guess so I‘ve been researching OLD techniques but this is 2022 so decided I would look at newer stuff - at least new to me.
Interesting that by the end you came back to the old stuff.
Oil and wax and UV.
Cool 😎
Ps. Also interesting that men follow #10 and women buy more UV protecting paint products….. 😹
I’m building a garden wishing well for my mother out of cedar. It’s guna to get a ton of uv light cuz where she wants to put there is no shade. What finish or finishes do you recommend I use. I was thinking epoxy/spar varnish but after seeing your cedar table resto but now after watching this vid and seeing the end result of that I’m having second thoughts. The pergola turned out amazing, how is that holding up. And is there any advice you can give me
Great follow-up, with realistic conclusions in real-world conditions. Thanks!
Hi Marc,
After many years of making outdoor projects like Adirondack chairs and tables. The ultimate finish is no finish at all or in my opinion a penetrating finish like Thompson’s or something like it. Simpler is better for me. You’ve used many other finishes that I have not tried. But I do know that film finishes hold up for a while but as you said are difficult to refinish. Thank you again for your effort with this video I’ve been watching you since you started making TH-cam videos and you have become an excellent Woodworker.
Don't know if you are still reviewing comments here, but in case you are, I'd like to thank you for sharing such valuable information. I only wish I had seen it when it was posted! I built a picnic table for my best friend last summer, and made the rookie mistake of finishing it with poly urethane. In hindsight, I wish I had used spar urethane (it was my first piece of outdoor furniture)!!! He bought a fancy winter cover for it, which he recently removed. He informed me that the top, which was left its natural color under the clear urethane, had several black spots on it. The seats, which were similarly finished, were fine (the rest was painted). When I went to see for myself, I believed the spots to be mildew! I'm guessing that the urethane developed micro-cracks from expansions and contractions, and the cover kept condensation against it without a chance to evaporate naturally. The seats were not affected because the cover didn't rest on the surface. I'm going to have to sand and refinish the top, and now I'm trying to determine what's best. I "think" this might not have happened with spar, but I'm not certain.
Anyone have any experience with something like this? Or recommendations?
Try cleaning the mildew/mold with Miracle Mist, I'd pour it where the affected areas are and let it soak in and see if it kills it. It's great stuff and really does kill and remove....if it works, I'd then seal up the cracks.
@@stephenwhite5444 Thank you! That's really good to know!! I'll look for it!
One of Brazil’s biggest designer/architect, Carlos Motta, applies NO finish at all on his outdoor pieces, including decks and stairs. He often uses a Brazilian wood called Itaúba, a very badass Brazilian wood, very resistant and easy to work.
Thanks Marc for the review of finishes. I looked at this video again as I am just about done with a cedar table and wanted to be reminded about the finishes. I'm wondering, though, how you make sure of the leveling of the epoxy feet, from the videos that I have seen you do with this technique it doesn't look too measured or precise.
Thanks in advance
It's not very precise. Usually not an issue outside because I've yet to see an outdoor surface that's truly flat anyway. But if you have a major issue after adding the feet you can always sand them down as needed.
Thanks for this video. Very informative. I have a pair of cedar Adirondacks finished in Spar Urethane (Man O’ War, from Rockler) They get a lot of UV and weather/water exposure. I refinished them last year, but wanted to get into a habit of annual maintenance. Is it overkill to put on a light coat of the spar every year or so? And what grit would you recommend to scuff up the surface before applying?
I'd scuff up with 180 or so and reapply. I don't know that yearly is going to be necessary but it wouldn't be crazy to apply a new light coat every couple of years.
@@woodwhisperer Got it. Thanks!
you should look into graphine spray coating that is used for automotive detailing. it is suposed to be very good for uv protection.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Will be trying the waxing blend next. UV is so hard on a wood finish, and films eventually crack.
I was fortunate enough to be the recipient of a a dock deck full of ipe do to a hurricane. So I have a lot. Made some adirondack chairs etc. Tough wood though. So now I use it for accents or for utilitarian purposes. For the bottom of legs on outdoor furniture I cut and glue (Titebond III) an end cap around a 1/4" thick. This works wonderfully. I know epoxy works as well, but I thought you might be interested in another approach.
I am making a garden gate out of some unknown, rough cut wood studs from a house built in the early 1700's. I love the natual look of this wood and want to keep that if possible. I have not idea what type of oil or coating to place on this for outdoors. It will receive about 75% straight sunlight everyday and mid-Virginia weather. I am okay with it greying and I also like the soft amber tones that an oil finish can produce. Does anyone have any tips? The wood rings are very dense and heavy. And the studs that I am using are ~3x5" thick.
I would love to see an update since you’re in humility now 😊😊
I have a fair amount of Kiln dried 8/4 and 5/4 white oak. I hadn’t thought of using that wood outside. Fancy outside slat-style table like you did, and chairs, soon to come!
What would you recommend for a wood deck? Part of my deck is in full sun, part of it is around the back of the house and gets morning sun and shade the rest of the day. Being in Oregon, we get lots of rain, so the back part gets slippery and green.
Hi Marc, I’m curious if you think an epoxy cap would be a good idea for posts on pergolas/swings? I did a custom swing for some neighbors using PT 6x6 posts. The wood moisture was high at the time so I didn’t want to seal it then, but it’s been a year now. What are your thoughts on treating end grain tops?
Well, I've never tried it. I have to imagine it can only help. That's a major absorption point during rain so I think it's definitely worth exploring.
Excellent as Always Marc. I have learned so much from you. I always admire your talent , craftsmanship and your attention to detail I see in everything you do. Spot on agree with your assessment. I build wood whitewater kayak paddles and people just have me maintain them. They do get UV of course but the film finish gets gets broken from bashing against rocks. Abrasion from rings and boat contact. This is just cost of doing business when using a wood as opposed to a fiberglass paddle. Finishes and maximising the beauty of wood is my holy grail. Pigment is not easy for me but it does have its place. Thank You
Great review. Thank you for sharing. Have a great day and stay safe.
Great video. I wonder how spar urethane would have done in the mix.
Central Pennsylvania sikkins proluxe. Table top I did has be out for about 3 years at a bar with only 2 coats next month I'm gonna clean and apply another coat. But also using a duckback product and I love it so far but needs yearly maintenance used them for my wooden truck bed. And hell yeah still looked good after 2 seasons then well it's in a barn currently flat beds make a great table for stuff...
Great info and projects! I’ll never be talented enuf to make those, haha.
Anyways… how does Tung oil hold up outdoors?
Thanks! After I heard the teaser for this video, I held off finishing some khaya outdoor projects. I’ll probably stay with the epifanes for a cabinet that will be out of the sun. I still have decisions to make on the tables, which will get good doses of Virginia sun and moisture.
What a great informative video. I just refinished a teak garden bench for the 3rd time this week. General finishes outdoor oil held up the best for me so far, but this year I’m trying Watco Teak oil. They take full sun for at least half a day. (In NC) If I can 2 years out of the Watco I’m a happy camper.
Thanks for the informative video.... Lots of great info to save everybody time and disappointment. My wife loves the zebra bench and she wants a bench or seat in the shower. Thanks again for the knowledge 👍
Great extensive review. Thanks so much for putting together and sharing your experience.
I agree with your conclusions. However, I would recommend using Waterlox sealer ( Tung mail based) and use Waterlox Marine for a top coat.
I'm thinking of using wood for some outdoor bar countertops. Well use walnut and poplar(because I have it on hand) it will be under a roof won't see sun and no direct rain. Thinking of using osmo uv protecting oil. Do you think that's best and how will it hold up? 10+ yrs?
Although the greying of wood does seem unsightly, it does look like natural wood should. For outdoor products it has better longevity than any other process. Temporary eye candy can be very annoying.
Luckily for me, I like the look of paint on some outdoor stuff--for example, an arbor for climbing (red) roses that sits near a west-facing wall, and is painted with leftover paint from my exterior trim. It looks great and is standing up well to east TX heat & moisture. Mmm, paint! (Although now I'm wondering if I should have done epoxy pads, and if it's even possible to do that now, what with the roses being all well-stablished.)
Hey Marc,great video. Didn’t you build a Big Green Egg table?? How did that fare? I’m building a BGE table myself out of Cedar. What’s your recommendation for the finish? To be honest, I most likely won’t do any maintenance but have it covered when not in use. Also building a pergola out of Douglas Fir. Same question, what to use. Oh by the way I live in Wisconsin. Extreme cold winters and hot humid summers. Thank you 🙏🏻in advance.