Ok... Now I'm super confused. My neighbor practices Beltane but is not Celtic. My ancestors descend from Odin but thanks to Rollo, we became Catholic only to then leave the church because of... "Sales." So I'm pretty much at the point where I feel it would be totally appropriate to make myself a God and be worshipped but I live in Alaska and... Well, I don't wanna be worshipped by folks in the government, military University Industrial complex, etc... So what may I do? I have enough land to carry out rituals so... Where are my people and when?!
In Swedish folklore and folk custom there once existed an allegorical pageant repeated annually the night between 30th of April and 1st of May. If I remember correctly, it was first attested in a work by the 16th century writer Olaus Magnus: Two men dressed up as "the Count of Winter" and "the Count of Spring", and the Count of Spring defeated the Count of Winter to the cheer of the surrounding audience. The pageant was asymmetrical, since there was no similar pageant in late October with the opposite victor. May Eve may sound surprisingly late for a Spring Rite to people accustomed to the clement weather conditions further south, but believe me: In Sweden there is no reason to celebrate spring before the arrival of May. By Spring Equinox there is usually snow up north, and even in the south (despite the return of cranes) _sleet_ is a very common sight in March and early April. I suspect there must exist some sort of common source of origin for the British allegory about the Holly king and Oak King and the Swedish allegory about the Count of Winter and the Count of Spring, but I have never encountered any ethnological study on the matter.
I personally prefer to think of it as a dance between the Gods as they honor each other as allow each other to take their rightful place in positions based on the timing and not so much of a battle. For me it's more of a peaceful pass off then a winning of a battle.
I was in choir for many years and we sang the Carol the holly and the ivy. Ivy relates to the oak king in my interpretation of the Carol. This has been a favorite Carol of mine for years because of its symbolism. I hope this can be a help to you in your studies and workings.
I believe that the Horned-god is the one who appears in different mythologies, folklore and pantheons, but his two horns are where the two kings are presented. So they are represented in every tradition 😁
The story of the holly and oak king is found in the story of Gwyn Ap Nudd in Welsh mythology. So it is Celtic and it does talk about the summer and winter solstice.
The Mabinogion, I have one right in front of me right now, states that Gwyn would fight every year forever on May Day, not the Summer Solstice: "She (Creiddylad) was the most splendid maiden in the three Islands of the mighty, and in the thee Islands adjacent, and for her Gwythyr the son of Greidawl and Gwynn the son of Nudd fight every first of May until the day of doom." The Mabinogion, Page 135, Line 3. The Holly King myth link was made by Robert Graves WAAAY after the fact with no evidence beyond literary coincidence. The book where the link is suggested has also been rejected by the historians, scholars, archaeologists etc. There isn't any hard evidence of Ancient British Celts specifically following the Solstices. Sorry to burst your bubble :(
Hi Scarlet. I read a lot of British and Irish myths and legends when I was younger, but I hadn't come across the Oak and Holly kings until last year when I heard sa song by Damh the Bard. I gree that the kings' rule should be from equinox to equinox otherwise the tale doesn't really make much sense. I really enjoy your Utube channel. please keep them going. xx
Holly and Oak are considered part of the Royal trees of the Ogham Since the Holly is an evergreen that seems to bloom in the winter. It is one of the trees that watches over the forest in the winter. The oak blooms in the summer. So Oak watches over the forest during the warmer months. Thus dividing the year. The Oak and the Holly each have Their tasks in the forest for their part of the year! The so-called fight between Oak and Holly is not a battle. It is in fact a transfer of Power from the Oak King of Summer to the Holly King of Winter. Thereby insuring the forests are properly protected and managed all year long!
What you describe matches with my point of view. Both of them as different aspects of one deity do not really fight each other. It's more a kind of contest about the question if one is that tired that the other one has to take over responsibility.
The origin of the idea of the Oak King and Holly King are discussed in Sir James George Frazer's 'The Golden Bough', which is likely where Robert Graves got the idea in his publication 'The White Goddess'.
I also learned from some body else about the at the winter solstice, the Oak king defeated the Holly King and the summer solstice , the holly king returned and defeated the oak king
Great video! Have you looked into the similarities between the traditional version of the Holly King and Wotan/ Odin (the wild hunt, especially)? Would be very interesting.
To me the Holly King is what we call "Christmas spirit": apricity, spiced wine, gathering.... ❤️ It appeared to me as a fairy like creature with pixie wings and santa head ❤️
Great video As a point of interest I have heard of a similar tale before, except that it was two queens of the Tuatha De Danann (or fay) instead of kings. The Seelie Queen rules the summer, while the Unseelie Queen rules the winter. The Summer Queen willing gives up control after the harvest, and expects to regain control in the spring. But their conflict is caused by the Winter Queen either trying to take control earlier than she should or trying to retain control for too long, and this is why winter comes earlier in some years and lingers longer in others. I cannot remember the names of the two queens or where I read / heard it, but if I can find them I will update this post.
I'm a Welsh Celtic Pagan and as afar as I know, Welsh Celts at least, have always celebrated Yule Tide/ winter solstice, they have done for centuries 😊🏴🤗🌟
Would you consider reading more?! I really like your reading tone, and it’s really nice as a beginning pagan to listen to you and take in the information! 💘
Maybe you can set up an alter in a drawer: a nightstand, a desk, maybe you have a dresser in your closet. Use mini alter items and be creative. I've found many "travel alter" items at thrift stores. Be sure to purify them well. Have fun putting it together and don't stress about perfection. You'll have a far more meaningful experience using items you love! All the best my dear!
If you have access to a secret place, preferrably outdoors, you can take a cloth and all accoutrements in a special, dedicated container and set it up each time and hide it in it's container once more when you are done.
As a traditional witch, our interpretation of these kings also serves as a way of being alert and careful. Most of us practice our rituals outside, in constrast to many of our wiccan friends who prefer to do it at home with an altar. Traditional witches may go to forests or be surrounded by nature while performing any kind of spell, things can go pretty far south if we don't pay attention. Being aware that nature can be harsh and dangerous is an incredibly wise and necessary sort of knowledge for us. It embodies well the risks and unpredictability of nature and allows traditional witches to perform their rituals with a cautious approach that can save literally our lives.
In my mythology, the Oak King is the God of the Waxing Year. The Holly King is the God of the Waning Year. This is a bit of an oversimplification, though. In Robert Graves’ book The White Goddess, there are twenty-two trees that make up the cycle of the year. The position of the oak in the tree calendar is at the apex, or keystone, corresponding to Midsummer. The Holly comes immediately afterward in the cycle, indicating a transfer of power. Remember that a king needs to be offered at the height of his power in order to be a worthy sacrifice. 👑 🩸 🍷
I resonate more with Traditional Witchcraft, but my mythology is not necessarily the same as others. The tradition of Robert Cochran (aka Roy Bowers) speaks most to me, and I know he valued Robert Graves’ work. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cochrane_(witch)
Other similar stories that could have contributed to the holly and oak king stories outside of celtic lore. Nothing exact, mainly some santa esque stuff from slavic traditions that was documented to predate christianity... such as the russian ded moroz, the polish Gwiazdor (aka starman), and reconstructionists believe a slavic god named volos fights a god named perun who is represented by an oak tree... I'm not suggesting any of these contribute, however they are all proto-indo-european mythology, and it's pretty interesting when little things line up.
Interesting that you're wearing the mjölnir, which symbolises male energy & male health and not the crescent, which is the female equivalent. Can I also ask what zodiac you are, if it's not too personal? Love your channel!
To Answer your question, paganism is a broad term. Now if you want to be a Wiccan you would have to follow Wiccan tradition. To label yourself as a witch or a practitioner of magic you have more of the freedom to follow your own rules. However there is the steadfast rule and it's not a man-made rule. And that is the rule of "what you put out, maybe what you get back threefold" so really it just depends on which Pagan path you prefer to choose and live your life. Those who follow the wiccan tradition may be held to a certain standard or "way of doing things" . However it's really just subject to your own personal path. I hope this helps
I do enjoy your content but recently there's been some misinformation on this channel. Continental Celts did celebrate the solstices. Could you direct us to sources suggesting otherwise?
You're correct that continental Celts did celebrate the solstices. I was referring to the fact that most articles say this story is from Irish mythology, but the Irish Celts did not celebrate the solstices. Though it's definitely possible that my research was incorrect. I would love to spend more time researching for each video so I'm hoping as this channel and my Pateron grows I'll be able to dedicate more of my week to researching for each video. :)
What are your thoughts on the Holly King & the Oak King? Which version (Wiccan or Traditional Witch) resonates most with you?
Ok... Now I'm super confused. My neighbor practices Beltane but is not Celtic. My ancestors descend from Odin but thanks to Rollo, we became Catholic only to then leave the church because of... "Sales."
So I'm pretty much at the point where I feel it would be totally appropriate to make myself a God and be worshipped but I live in Alaska and... Well, I don't wanna be worshipped by folks in the government, military University Industrial complex, etc... So what may I do? I have enough land to carry out rituals so...
Where are my people and when?!
I'm a traditionalists myself... 😊😊
Dyaus Pitar (Vedic), Zeus Pater (Greek), Jupiter (Roman), Dei Patrous (Illyrian), Dievs (Baltic).
Uṣas (Vedic), Eos (Greek), Aurora (Roman), Aushrine (Baltic).
Varuṇa (Vedic), Odinn/Wodan (Germanic), Ouranous (Greek), Velinas (Baltic).
Asura (Vedic), Aesir (Germanic), Ahura (Avestan).
Marut (Vedic), Ares (Greek), Mars (Roman).
Parjanya (Vedic), Perkunas (Baltic), Perunu (Slavic), Fjorgyn (Germanic).
Traitana (Vedic), Thraetaona (Avestan), Triton (Greek).
Aryaman (Vedic), Airyaman (Avestan), Ariomanus/Eremon (Celtic).
Saramā/Sārameya (Vedic), Hermes (Greek).
Pūṣan, Paṇi (Vedic), Pan (Greek), Vanir (Germanic).
Rudra (Vedic), Ruglu (Slavic).
Danu (Vedic), Danu (Irish).
Indra (Vedic), Indra (Avestan), Inara (Hittite).
Śarvara (Vedic), Kerberos (Greek).
Śrī (Vedic), Ceres (Greek), Freyr/Freya (Germanic).
Bhaga (Vedic), Baga (Avestan), Bog (Slavic).
Apām Napāt (Vedic), Apām Napāt (Avestan), Neptunus (Roman), Nechtain (Celtic).
Ṛbhu (Vedic), Elbe (Germanic).
Yama (Vedic), Yima (Avestan), Ymir (Germanic).
In Swedish folklore and folk custom there once existed an allegorical pageant repeated annually the night between 30th of April and 1st of May. If I remember correctly, it was first attested in a work by the 16th century writer Olaus Magnus: Two men dressed up as "the Count of Winter" and "the Count of Spring", and the Count of Spring defeated the Count of Winter to the cheer of the surrounding audience. The pageant was asymmetrical, since there was no similar pageant in late October with the opposite victor.
May Eve may sound surprisingly late for a Spring Rite to people accustomed to the clement weather conditions further south, but believe me: In Sweden there is no reason to celebrate spring before the arrival of May. By Spring Equinox there is usually snow up north, and even in the south (despite the return of cranes) _sleet_ is a very common sight in March and early April.
I suspect there must exist some sort of common source of origin for the British allegory about the Holly king and Oak King and the Swedish allegory about the Count of Winter and the Count of Spring, but I have never encountered any ethnological study on the matter.
Both, depending on which part of the wheel we are on 😊
I personally prefer to think of it as a dance between the Gods as they honor each other as allow each other to take their rightful place in positions based on the timing and not so much of a battle. For me it's more of a peaceful pass off then a winning of a battle.
I think the Oak King and Holly King switch off on Beltane and Samhain the Celtic start to summer and winter respectively.
I agree on Beltane bu I believe the holly king comes every mabon
I was in choir for many years and we sang the Carol the holly and the ivy. Ivy relates to the oak king in my interpretation of the Carol. This has been a favorite Carol of mine for years because of its symbolism. I hope this can be a help to you in your studies and workings.
I find Oak , Holley , and Ash often are found growing together often with Larel and tulip poplar. Here in Md the woods are full of them ❤❤❤
I believe that the Horned-god is the one who appears in different mythologies, folklore and pantheons, but his two horns are where the two kings are presented. So they are represented in every tradition 😁
The story of the holly and oak king is found in the story of Gwyn Ap Nudd in Welsh mythology. So it is Celtic and it does talk about the summer and winter solstice.
The Mabinogion, I have one right in front of me right now, states that Gwyn would fight every year forever on May Day, not the Summer Solstice:
"She (Creiddylad) was the most splendid maiden in the three Islands of the mighty, and in the thee Islands adjacent, and for her Gwythyr the son of Greidawl and Gwynn the son of Nudd fight every first of May until the day of doom." The Mabinogion, Page 135, Line 3.
The Holly King myth link was made by Robert Graves WAAAY after the fact with no evidence beyond literary coincidence. The book where the link is suggested has also been rejected by the historians, scholars, archaeologists etc.
There isn't any hard evidence of Ancient British Celts specifically following the Solstices.
Sorry to burst your bubble :(
Hi Scarlet. I read a lot of British and Irish myths and legends when I was younger, but I hadn't come across the Oak and Holly kings until last year when I heard sa song by Damh the Bard. I gree that the kings' rule should be from equinox to equinox otherwise the tale doesn't really make much sense. I really enjoy your Utube channel. please keep them going. xx
Agreed
The Oak and Holly Kings don't appear in any folklore - they are a modern neo-pagan creation.
Holly and Oak are considered part of the Royal trees of the Ogham
Since the Holly is an evergreen that seems to bloom in the winter. It is one of the trees that watches over the forest in the winter.
The oak blooms in the summer. So Oak watches over the forest during the warmer months.
Thus dividing the year.
The Oak and the Holly each have Their tasks in the forest for their part of the year!
The so-called fight between Oak and Holly is not a battle.
It is in fact a transfer of Power from the Oak King of Summer to the Holly King of Winter.
Thereby insuring the forests are properly protected and managed all year long!
What you describe matches with my point of view. Both of them as different aspects of one deity do not really fight each other. It's more a kind of contest about the question if one is that tired that the other one has to take over responsibility.
The origin of the idea of the Oak King and Holly King are discussed in Sir James George Frazer's 'The Golden Bough', which is likely where Robert Graves got the idea in his publication 'The White Goddess'.
I love the EQUINOX version cause it makes sense . The holly king rule the winter and the oaks rules the summer
I also learned from some body else about the at the winter solstice, the Oak king defeated the Holly King and the summer solstice , the holly king returned and defeated the oak king
Thank you for the intelligent and well put together video!! New ideas that are really gonna make me think this summer, thank you ❤❤❤❤
Great video! Have you looked into the similarities between the traditional version of the Holly King and Wotan/ Odin (the wild hunt, especially)? Would be very interesting.
A key source for our 8 Festivals and battle of dark and light is Gardner's Druidic friend, Ross Nicholas. 🙏
To me the Holly King is what we call "Christmas spirit": apricity, spiced wine, gathering.... ❤️ It appeared to me as a fairy like creature with pixie wings and santa head ❤️
Read the Mabinogion...it's in there. Gornwy and Llew. Welsh.
your video essays are so well done i can't believe you're not a bigger creator
sol* Pause I love the pause because it catches " Scarlet " in a moment. I mean it is like catching an Angel before she touches the Ground
That’s so cool! Thanks for sharing this!
Great video
As a point of interest I have heard of a similar tale before, except that it was two queens of the Tuatha De Danann (or fay) instead of kings. The Seelie Queen rules the summer, while the Unseelie Queen rules the winter. The Summer Queen willing gives up control after the harvest, and expects to regain control in the spring. But their conflict is caused by the Winter Queen either trying to take control earlier than she should or trying to retain control for too long, and this is why winter comes earlier in some years and lingers longer in others.
I cannot remember the names of the two queens or where I read / heard it, but if I can find them I will update this post.
This was so informative thank you! 💛
I'm a Welsh Celtic Pagan and as afar as I know, Welsh Celts at least, have always celebrated Yule Tide/ winter solstice, they have done for centuries 😊🏴🤗🌟
Love your videos !
I didn't really know these two versions but the i like the comparison.
Would you consider reading more?! I really like your reading tone, and it’s really nice as a beginning pagan to listen to you and take in the information! 💘
Yes, this makes more sense!
I feel like I’m relate most with the traditional witchcraft story although I would mostly consider myself to be Wiccan
I enjoyed your talk, could you tell us the artists you featured?
Is this related to oak , ash , and thorn ? Are they aspecs of The Green man ?
What sources were you reading from?
Most indo European thunder/warrior deity’s are asssociated with the oak
Indo irainians disagree
"Like most aspects of wicca..."
Groan...(face palm), nuff said. Thank you for telling us REAL history.
Gasp, If ur on a pagan's channel, you will find pagan content!!! Who knew?!?
i am 61 taking care of my very eldery parents. i consider myself pagan but i can't really put up an alter. how can i pratice my faith?
Maybe you can set up an alter in a drawer: a nightstand, a desk, maybe you have a dresser in your closet. Use mini alter items and be creative. I've found many "travel alter" items at thrift stores. Be sure to purify them well. Have fun putting it together and don't stress about perfection. You'll have a far more meaningful experience using items you love! All the best my dear!
1. Set up an altar. 2. Practice. 3. Then put it away. 4. Repeat.
If you have access to a secret place, preferrably outdoors, you can take a cloth and all accoutrements in a special, dedicated container and set it up each time and hide it in it's container once more when you are done.
As a traditional witch, our interpretation of these kings also serves as a way of being alert and careful. Most of us practice our rituals outside, in constrast to many of our wiccan friends who prefer to do it at home with an altar. Traditional witches may go to forests or be surrounded by nature while performing any kind of spell, things can go pretty far south if we don't pay attention. Being aware that nature can be harsh and dangerous is an incredibly wise and necessary sort of knowledge for us. It embodies well the risks and unpredictability of nature and allows traditional witches to perform their rituals with a cautious approach that can save literally our lives.
Are they like the Green man ?
Please tell me what book you are reading!!!! Any suggestions on any book would be wonderful!
Hi Cara, the book I was reading from in the video is Treading the Mill by Nigel Pearson :)
Great video! What book were you reading from about the Oak King?
The book is Treading the Mill by Nigel Pearson :)
Scarlet Ravenswood thank you!!
In my mythology, the Oak King is the God of the Waxing Year. The Holly King is the God of the Waning Year.
This is a bit of an oversimplification, though. In Robert Graves’ book The White Goddess, there are twenty-two trees that make up the cycle of the year.
The position of the oak in the tree calendar is at the apex, or keystone, corresponding to Midsummer. The Holly comes immediately afterward in the cycle, indicating a transfer of power.
Remember that a king needs to be offered at the height of his power in order to be a worthy sacrifice.
👑
🩸
🍷
I resonate more with Traditional Witchcraft, but my mythology is not necessarily the same as others. The tradition of Robert Cochran (aka Roy Bowers) speaks most to me, and I know he valued Robert Graves’ work.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cochrane_(witch)
Other similar stories that could have contributed to the holly and oak king stories outside of celtic lore. Nothing exact, mainly some santa esque stuff from slavic traditions that was documented to predate christianity... such as the russian ded moroz, the polish Gwiazdor (aka starman), and reconstructionists believe a slavic god named volos fights a god named perun who is represented by an oak tree... I'm not suggesting any of these contribute, however they are all proto-indo-european mythology, and it's pretty interesting when little things line up.
Elon Musk currently personifies the Oak King as Elon means Oak Tree. Who currently personifies The Holly King in our current cultural landscape?
Interesting that you're wearing the mjölnir, which symbolises male energy & male health and not the crescent, which is the female equivalent. Can I also ask what zodiac you are, if it's not too personal?
Love your channel!
Are there rules in paganism like christianity? Like the 10 commandments?
Norse paganism
To Answer your question, paganism is a broad term. Now if you want to be a Wiccan you would have to follow Wiccan tradition. To label yourself as a witch or a practitioner of magic you have more of the freedom to follow your own rules. However there is the steadfast rule and it's not a man-made rule. And that is the rule of "what you put out, maybe what you get back threefold" so really it just depends on which Pagan path you prefer to choose and live your life. Those who follow the wiccan tradition may be held to a certain standard or "way of doing things" . However it's really just subject to your own personal path. I hope this helps
@@thevancave7218 thanks :)
I do enjoy your content but recently there's been some misinformation on this channel. Continental Celts did celebrate the solstices. Could you direct us to sources suggesting otherwise?
You're correct that continental Celts did celebrate the solstices. I was referring to the fact that most articles say this story is from Irish mythology, but the Irish Celts did not celebrate the solstices. Though it's definitely possible that my research was incorrect. I would love to spend more time researching for each video so I'm hoping as this channel and my Pateron grows I'll be able to dedicate more of my week to researching for each video. :)
Excellent Research contact me if you want the pagan lens.
Fables.
The effects tho!0)
It's from Celtic and Nordic sabbaths... not from witches
Lol like u can pick and choose. How can u escape the extremes of life n death. It's universal law. Sugar coating it makes it no less real
Holly king overtakes oak king mid summer
masks of misrule nigel jackson 1996 the horned god and his cult in europe google this nice book