I fkn love it when an electronic song starts with a straight chord progression, and then when the beat comes in, you realise the beat is off, or even better, the chords are in poly-rhythm with the beat. So confusing and beautiful.
@@IRoIN100Videotape by Radiohead; Rock And Roll by Led Zeppelin; Dos Cero Uno and Nos Siguen Pegando Abajo by Charly Garcia; many more but I'm lazy to think about them now. They are not electronic obviously but they do the samw thing: start on one beat/offbeat/polirythm and you wouldn't notice until the other instruments come in
Weird Fishes / Arpeggi is a bit of a rythmic illusion as well. Jonny's chords are played in 5/4 over 3/4 guitar and 4/4 drums. It is a great polymeter.
and of course, mostly famously: pyramid song. which is secretely 8/4 or 4/4. has a repeating syncopated rhythm 3,3,4,3,3 that doesn't follow the chord changes, and sounds like there isn't a time signature. Someone worked out the rhythm even forms to the number of edges on each side of a pyramid which is a total coincidence. They said they called it that because it sounded vaguely egyptian.
Some Dude correct, but it’s taken to another level you could say. It being swung is just the cherry on top. It’s literally just a two 4-bar phrase repeated but sounds so disorienting because of the accented chord changes which happen (almost seemingly at random) on different notes each phrase. Yeah it’s just a swung 4/4 rhythm but it’s really a two 4-bar slowed down bossanova rhythm symmetrically swung in 4/4 time with non-repeating accents.
Maybe I’m new on this, but I can’t follow easily the tempo in “little by little” from the basement, I think they follow the same technique... you can explain too...???
I bet David here could offer some help but I happen to count this song off in my cover and tutorial to help. I also answer this exact question on an upcoming podcast. I feel a little weird commenting here with a link promoting something I'm doing since this is David's video. But at the same time I want you to know I hear you. So if you are intereested, visit OKPodcast [.] com
WARRENMUSIC thanks bro, i understand de concept of rhythmic illusions, but i think little by little deserve his own video. I don’t think David getting mad with your comercial, you two are greatest musicians. I’ll be waiting your podcast and thanks again for answer me...
Bach and Mozart are also great at this. Starting phrases in weird spots, but shifting things to make them somehow sound "normal". Bach in particular, is always throwing in odd phrase lengths and anticipatory figures that set up a feel that gravitates toward the middle of the bar rather than the "downbeat" for a while until he "rights the ship" later.
The recorded version actually still puts the syncopation in plain view: the vocals follow the down beat. It doesn't need a blatant pulse to sell the effect
The song "Survivalism" by Nine Inch Nails is also a great example of Rhytmic illusion in Pop Music. The song starts with a low kick that suppose to be the downbeat, but the Snare and the guitar playing on the upbeat makes the illusion that this is the downbeat. The vocal seems also offbeat by 1 beat in the verses, but it is technically placed with the "real" downbeat at the beginning.
The Phish song, "It's Ice" starts with a guitar phrase that on the album recording is accented in such a way that the downbeat seems to be on the first note. But when the rest of the band comes in you realize the first 3 notes of the guitar intro are actually a pickup to the downbeat which occurs on the 4th note. I used to play that intro to the track over and over trying to force my ear to hear it correctly. A similar thing happens in a solo piano piece by Ravel, "Une Barque sur l'Ocean". It's a 16th note figure in the right hand (starts in bar 92) that due to the contour of it, makes it difficult to hear the 1st note as the downbeat. It sounds like the 2nd note is the downbeat which in turn screws up your sense of the rhythm of the melody that plays under it in the left hand. It's another one of those that I fight to force my ear to hear it correctly and drive myself nuts doing!
I was always enthralled by how Videotape felt so lurching and strange even though it's just chords on the downbeat (or so I thought). I don't think they'd be able to replicate that feel if they thought of those chords as being the downbeat rather than the 8th note just before.
Haven't even watched one minute of your video yet but already you've explained the concept behind both those 10+ minute videos in a simple and understandable way. Love it!
Another good example would be Rufus & Chaka Khan's Tell Me Something Good, the intro starts on the "and" of 4, but can be confused as the downbeat until the drums enter
~8:40 (Re: Videotape): "there's no moment when the true downbeat is actually sounded" There are actually two of such moments: First, the very first note/beat of the song (the very first piano chord strike, a dotted note). Second, a left hand open 5th strike halfway through the instrumental interlude (section with the humming). EDIT: In addition to this, there is also faintly a metronomic ticking throughout the track which gets louder particularly closer to the end.
I think you might have made the same mistake I did and assumed that the top video of this song on TH-cam is the album version. I think that's actually a rogue live version.
Once In A Lifetime by Talking Heads still wrecks my head on the chorus. Even though the beat is the same all the way through, I always thought that the word ‘days’ in the chorus denotes the first beat of the bar. Letting the DAYS go by. And then they lose two beats to get back to the verse. I have to actually remind myself now that isn’t what’s happening.
They made the rhythm of the other layers in a way that suggests a different beat that the bars begin on. So when the drums actually kick in, you are thinking of the wrong point where it starts. So it's surprizing as it reveals the truth. :) I like especially how the singing rhythm still works either way, similar to how it also does in Pyramid Song.
Let's not forget that simple example at the beginning of "Bodysnatchers"! And I suppose we could even go way back to another simple example in the intro to "How Do You" on "Pablo Honey". I've always loved that about Radiohead. Well, actually, I've just always loved Radiohead. Radiohead's the biz. Mmmm-mm! Swell video. Many thanks.
Fantastic video, David. One of my favourite examples of this kind of illusion is in the 3rd movement of Schumann's piano concerto (a fast 3/4). It's easy enough to find the downbeat in the movement's first theme, but I love how Schumann displaces the beat in the second theme, which tricks the listener into thinking that the music has moved into a slower 3/4. Genius!
Playing cello through junior high, high school, and college this type of trickery was always fun. Gotta pay super close attention to the conductor and the music.
David, you're without a shade of doubt the funniest most interesting composer here on youtube. As a student of composition myself, struggling a bit right now to finish the portfolio for the exam, watching your videos is keeping me going like caffeine :) Thank you brother!
Great video! But I have to part ways with you on the "Scotch Snap" - it is NOT a rhythmic illusion - the dancers (or marchers) will nonetheless always step on the initial 1/16th note - but a more than usually sophisticated use of a the short note as an "on-the-beat pickup note" as a cue to the dancers. The result is a physicalization of the notion of "lilt" (lift?) in that the dancers seem to float on the rhythmic spaces created by the dotted eighths. This is what gives the Strathspey its unique movement characteristic. But nobody mistakes where the downbeat is.
Why, oh why, has only one person in these comments mentioned "Tell Me Something Good" by Rufus? I have heard SO many cover bands get the rhythm wrong because of the way it leads you down the wrong path. Great video; Thank you!
I remember struggling with the rhythm of Radiohead's "Pyramid Song" when I was trying to teach it to a student. I was so proud of myself when I finally figured it out. :~) Another piece that I conceptualized incorrectly (for years I might add) is Michael Torke's "Adjustable Wrench." It's a really cool piece, and I suggest checking it out.
Oh man when you played the second beat example that was the actual beat for videotape, I got this crazy tingle. I couldn't quite tell in the first one what felt wrong but when you played the right one? Damn
Very nice. I love this subject. So many rock songs start with just guitars and I have some where I know where the downbeat is and I have to count it in my head so i don't get lost before the drums come in. There are songs I've heard 100 times and I still can't hear them right.
A few more classical examples that come to mind: in Beethoven's 6th symphony, 3rd movement, the B theme is written in such a way that when you first hear it, it sounds like the oboe is coming in a beat too soon. Similarly, at the beginning of the 3rd movement of his 8th symphony, the strings sound like they begin their pattern on the down beat, but they are actually shifted a beat earlier, which makes it sound like the horns come in at the wrong time.
A favourite example in rock/pop music is Start Me Up, by The Stones. Keef starts with an unaccompanied guitar riff that sounds exactly as if it kicks off on the first downbeat, but then Charlie Watts comes in with a heavy backbeat that turns the beat around. It still throws me whenever I hear it.
Perhaps not a full-blown rhythmic illusion, but a lovely subversion of expectations is in NoMeansNo's 'Can't Stop Talking'. When the other instruments join the bass and the rhythm is 'revealed', it not only establishes a great strong groove that must be nodded along to, but illustrates the driving constancy that the lyrics are all about. I've been learning Bach's 1st cello suite (albeit on mandolin), and I'm constantly delighted and flustered at how ambiguous the bar line becomes. Considering they're solo pieces-and apt to heavy-handed rubato-heightens the ambiguity for me, where before I was able to just listen and feel perfectly secure where I was. Having the image of Bach as the zenith of beautiful mathematical perfection in my mind makes it weirder on a base level, but even more awesome (in the true sense) on realising how deep the logic goes.
I do not hear your count of the Brand New Heavies *AT* *ALL*. I listened to the actual song and the downbeat seems very clear. Is there an alternate take of this track?? Trying to reconcile your take on it is meeting with violent rhythmic resistance.
I don't think the explanation is very clear because the kick and snare patterns in the actual track are much more punchy and pronounced and show clearly where the groove lies. His demonstration is pretty weak.
I've only listened to it on here, but yeah, the rhythm seems to be accentuating the downbeat clearly and that's where the bass comes in. Don't get it. Whereas on the Herbie Hancock track. I automatically heard the downbeat and the suggestion of where the listener probably heard it didn't occur to me. I haven't heard Janet Jackson's song with it sampled, but I imagine they deliberately used it offbeat to create a different effect, ie JJ's song was the one with the rhythmic illusion. That's my take on it. Good to hear the rhythm on Videotape explained tho. Kind of mind-blowing.
This also happens in the intros of Beetlebum by Blur and Aenemia by Tool The most confusing part is that even though I know where the beat actually is it's still hard to hear it the right way before the other instruments join in
Once I realized that the very first note of Beetlebum was actually the downbeat (and not the 4th beat of the previous bar) I can only hear it with the correct meter. But there are some songs like the Pixies' "Dig For Fire" or The Breeders cover of "Its the Love" that always throw me off, even though I know where the downbeat is supposed to be
Great and informative video! I've got another example for you if you're interested: the song Falling Away With You by Muse. The verse melody sounds like it's on the beat for the most part, but there seems to be an extra eighth note before the chorus. The second verse makes it a bit more clear that the soft melody and bass are actually both syncopated, because of the addition of the on-beat rim clicks, and that there was in fact no extra eighth note. Though, it is still subtle and tricky to pick up on. It kind of blew my mind when I could finally hear the syncopation, as it completely changes the groove.
I absolutely don’t understand your point at the piece from brand new heavies. The click you use to make something clear is to me on the eight note offs. To me everything is perfectly clear. Maybe the only thing is, that the real one seems to be there where the Snaredrum starts (or usually repenique)
My favourite Meshuggah song Combustion is built on the similar rhythmic illusion. What's remarkable about it is that it's never completely obvious which parts of the song have kick as beat 1 and which have snare as beat 1 (spoilers: it's kick for the whole song). Sneaky off-beat cymbal accents and vocals that in the middle part just go completely off-beat (I suppose 220 bpm doesn't help either) make this song so confusing, that after 7 years of hearing the song "my way" it blew my mind finally being able to hear it the way I would assume the band members hear it.
Oh thank you for that one! That is one of the best examples yet. I followed your advice and tried to listen to the kick drum but I just couldn't get my head to accept that as the downbeat. I guess I'll have to wait another 7 years!!
start clapping the beat at 110bpm form the first guitar note you hear. It´s a relaxed 4/4 beat all the way through! just don´t get fooled by the three 16th-off-beat hi hats that count the drum part in ;)
please do a video on the rhythms of meshuggah! They do a lot of quasi-polyrhythmic things where a 4/4 drum beat is played under a odd-timed riff that's in, say, 19/16 for example; but I suggest really listening to their albums 'A Violent Sleep of Reason' and 'Koloss'. there's so many intuitive yet bizarre rhythmic change ups that leave you bobbing your head to the beat yet confused at the same time, like the seamless transitions of quarter note to dotted quarter note feels in 'Clockworks', or the groovy syncopated rhythms of 'Nostrum' or 'The Hurt That Finds You First.'
Radiohead's "Bodysnatchers", from the same album, starts off with a similar rhythmic illusion, but it only lasts 4 bars before the drums come in. Also, "Pyramid song" is another good example.
As another classical example, I seem to remember in Berlioz's symphony fantastique finale, there's a place where every note is syncopated for about 10 or 20 bars, it really does have that effects of disorienting you, it's near the end of the piece if I recall correctly.
Intro to Simon and Garfunkel - Cecilia, always kinda gets me. Easy once you purposefully concentrate on the kick in the introduction but its never what my ear actually feels is happening.
There are a couple of good examples of these in Chick Corea's Children's Songs - specifically number 1 and number 4. They're both in 6/8 and employ a quaver on the downbeat followed by a crotchet. When certain melodies are added it can make the downbeat sound on the crotchet and the quaver feel like an upbeat. Number 4 plays with this well and so sounds as if the pulse slightly changes from section to section.
I find this illusion particularly strong in the Prodigy's "Firestarter." Even though it opens with an explosive downbeat, the following riff has such a strong rhythmic pull that it throws the downbeat out of context until the verse starts.
All the best rock tunes have this 8th note displacement in the guitar riffs. A few that don't start where you think they start: You Really Got Me - The Kinks Shake Your Foundations - AC/DC Panama - Van Halen
i hope that David Bruce likes the topic this video is about, should consider making a video on how chris dave used and developed all this rithmic displacements and illusions, also with metric modulation, in a way he can improvise with it i can make a compilation of quotes
I have a composition that features clapping and stomping constant quarter notes. It sounded best on the beat during the verses and off the best during the short bridges between the versus. Instead altering the clapping, I removed an eight note from the beginning of the bridge and added it to the end of the bridge. This way the clapping remains constant while everything else shifts around it. It's great fun to perform this live and get the audience clapping. You can tell who the musicians are because they suddenly look bewildered coming out of the first bridge and into the verse. It's like aural judo.
Thankyou, this is fascinating. In answer to your question at the end, I would love to hear more about African rhythms and how they interlock together to produce these great patterns.
Also, changing the placement of the "real" downbeat often results in subtle changes in the way musicians feel and phrase the overlaying textures and melodies, even if they are faithfully maintaining an illusory beat accent and macro phrase. Even precise orchestral musicians playing a scherzo with deceptive rhythmic structure may practice for hours to ensure they're "playing the ink", but almost none are trying to trick their brains into believing the off beats are actually on the beat (which equates to not really counting correctly), and that realization of where the beat actually is forces everyone's brain to process the phrases slightly differently than they would have processed it otherwise. It would be a fun experiment to take phrases of an original work with deceptive rhythmic structures, arrange the same phrase written two or more different ways in relation to the beat, record it (perhaps even with just one instrument or section), and then compare the interpretation of the phrases. Yes, there are times that musicians need to truly sell the off beats as on beats (particularly with regard to where the accent may be) and perhaps even shape the macro phrase contrary to the perceived beat, but I doubt even the most seasoned professional musicians will completely eliminate subtle changes from the entire phrase when the beat placement changes if they're actually counting the real beat. But perhaps I'm wrong. I've practiced for long hours to achieve this sort of transparency in works I perform and I know I have to put more effort into such counting, which I believe changes my interpretation slightly even if I'm achieving the desired affect, but I'm also not in The NY Phil. So perhaps that tier of musicians don't really think about it as much as we traveling regional musicians.
I believe the begining of MDK from Magma is also an exemple of that, at least, it seems that you have two ways of understanding the pattern that don't sound the same.
I've always hated the rhythmic illusions, they're so frustrating, because i always try to hear them "the right way", but it's so hard sometimes, even if i count along loudly 😄
SO, all those times I was worried about not knowing where the downbeat was, the truth was that nobody actually knows? And it really doesn't matter? Whoa man
Hello! I've been looking for a detailed explanation of the Cameroonian song KOPOLO for a long time and here I found something! Thank you. Could you make a video detailing guitar, bass, percussion and vocals? You'd be thankful all over the world! Greetings from Argentina!
Not really a hidden rhythm. What confuses you its the fact that David Lovering every few bars changes the beat from starting with the kick to starting with the snare. Or simply put, sometimes he plays it normally, other times he plays it "backwards". It also ads to the effect the fact that the guitars and specially the bass are so tightly syncopated with the drums and they keep the syncopation as if no elements on the drum were changed.
This reminded me of the Polish carol W żłobie leży, which has a simple ¾ mazurka rhythm with a strong second beat. But in English language hymnals, the barlines are usually moved, and the former second beat becomes the first beat and the original first beat becomes an upbeat.
The song Trip by Jizue did that to me most recently. Took me ages to work out it was in 5, and that the first piano chord was on the 2nd semiquaver! You might be interested in Inmazes by the band Vola as another example. Also, a local band once sampled the opening of Vivaldi's A minor violin concerto, but a quaver too late!
And just a few more of my favorite examples of this - "Tell Me Something Good" (Chaka Khan and Rufus), "Walking In Memphis" (Marc Cohn), "Free Ride" (Edgar Winter Group), and Bonham's intro to "Rock and Roll" (Led Zeppelin).
This always fascinated me. Most of the examples in the comments I was aware of, the rest I'll have to listen to next. I'll give your one more. Pocket Calculator by Kraftwerk. I always felt the first note as the and of 4 before the drums come in.
Gone by Montgomery Gentry was an example of this for me. When the guitar arpeggio comes in, I thought it came in on a quarter note instead of an eighth note. This made me hear it correctly at first due to the first guitar sound, then incorrectly due to the arpeggio, and then correctly again thanks to the shaker.
There's an upside down uke, a bowling ball on a high shelf, and an off-level venetian blind. Your studio is full of tricky visual rhythms! Good content though!😁
Check out Andy Akiho's NO one To kNOW one. There's a great section in the middle that feels like it's written in compound time, while it is in fact not. The vibraphone and glockenspiel are playing a pattern whose pulses are felt on every consecutive dotted eight note in the context of a four bar phrase of 3 bars of 4/4 and 1 bar of 3/4. The Flute, clarinet, and cello play long tones that land on down beats, creating an off kilter feeling; meanwhile, the piano plays consecutive triplets against all this! One of my favorite examples of this concept. Really hope you have the chance to give it a listen.
Some of my favorite pieces do exactly this. If you like Cuban trova, there's Silvio Rodríguez's "Y Mariana". And for videogame chiptune fans there's Pokémon Red & Blue's Rocket Hideout theme.
Ben Folds Five's 'Kate' creates a kind of rhythmic illusion before the drums come in. I get the impression as I listen that the piano and bass were recorded without a click track so there's a minor adjustment when the drums enter. In other words, the musicians seem a little fooled as well as we are as listeners ;)
I fkn love it when an electronic song starts with a straight chord progression, and then when the beat comes in, you realise the beat is off, or even better, the chords are in poly-rhythm with the beat. So confusing and beautiful.
Do you have an example?
"Love Game" by Lady Gaga is one of my favorite examples
Also "Little Secrets" by Passion Pit
can you exemplify
@@IRoIN100Videotape by Radiohead; Rock And Roll by Led Zeppelin; Dos Cero Uno and Nos Siguen Pegando Abajo by Charly Garcia; many more but I'm lazy to think about them now.
They are not electronic obviously but they do the samw thing: start on one beat/offbeat/polirythm and you wouldn't notice until the other instruments come in
Weird Fishes / Arpeggi is a bit of a rythmic illusion as well. Jonny's chords are played in 5/4 over 3/4 guitar and 4/4 drums. It is a great polymeter.
J was just about to comment that. Great observation.
Good to see someone who knows the difference between polyrhythm and polymeter 😎.
and of course, mostly famously: pyramid song. which is secretely 8/4 or 4/4. has a repeating syncopated rhythm 3,3,4,3,3
that doesn't follow the chord changes, and sounds like there isn't a time signature. Someone worked out the rhythm even forms to the number of edges on each side of a pyramid which is a total coincidence. They said they called it that because it sounded vaguely egyptian.
What?
Yes...analyse Weird Fishes!!
"rhythmic Radiohead and the illusion"
Your thumbnails are top notch
Don't dead. Open Inside.
Videotape: I have a sick Rithm
Pyramid song: Hold my proportions.
Explain
Whallop Pyramid Song (also by Radiohead) has a complex rhythm too.
It’s in 4/4
Some Dude correct, but it’s taken to another level you could say. It being swung is just the cherry on top. It’s literally just a two 4-bar phrase repeated but sounds so disorienting because of the accented chord changes which happen (almost seemingly at random) on different notes each phrase. Yeah it’s just a swung 4/4 rhythm but it’s really a two 4-bar slowed down bossanova rhythm symmetrically swung in 4/4 time with non-repeating accents.
the name say all
The left side of your blind is a syncopated 8th note below the right
Bravo! An awesome video. Congrats and thanks for mentioning my video!
all these doods are ripping u off mate.
The idea isn't mine; I'm glad more people are talking about it!
Maybe I’m new on this, but I can’t follow easily the tempo in “little by little” from the basement, I think they follow the same technique... you can explain too...???
I bet David here could offer some help but I happen to count this song off in my cover and tutorial to help. I also answer this exact question on an upcoming podcast. I feel a little weird commenting here with a link promoting something I'm doing since this is David's video. But at the same time I want you to know I hear you. So if you are intereested, visit OKPodcast [.] com
WARRENMUSIC thanks bro, i understand de concept of rhythmic illusions, but i think little by little deserve his own video. I don’t think David getting mad with your comercial, you two are greatest musicians. I’ll be waiting your podcast and thanks again for answer me...
6:05 - When you think you're going to hear a 17:89 time signature
Okay, so I wasn't the only one, haha
It's been three years and this still needs to happen
that Cameroonian track is mind-bending!
Africa is the source of all rhythms
I think that track is designed for dancing.
@@jumblejumbo My Cameroonian friend is also an anime fiend into buying swaggy clothes online, haha.
"Little by Little" also by Radiohead - great rhythmic illusion.
And Pyramid Song as well.
The first half of Ful Stop from AMSP, and The Butcher as well.
What about the start of Identikit?
I hope they didn't mess around with Identikit just to achieve that. I much prefer the earlier live version, to me the album version's a bit ruined.
The beat change in "The Butcher"
Bach and Mozart are also great at this. Starting phrases in weird spots, but shifting things to make them somehow sound "normal". Bach in particular, is always throwing in odd phrase lengths and anticipatory figures that set up a feel that gravitates toward the middle of the bar rather than the "downbeat" for a while until he "rights the ship" later.
I always experienced this with the guitar intro to “Everybody wants to rule the world“ by Tears for Fears
The recorded version actually still puts the syncopation in plain view: the vocals follow the down beat. It doesn't need a blatant pulse to sell the effect
The song "Survivalism" by Nine Inch Nails is also a great example of Rhytmic illusion in Pop Music. The song starts with a low kick that suppose to be the downbeat, but the Snare and the guitar playing on the upbeat makes the illusion that this is the downbeat. The vocal seems also offbeat by 1 beat in the verses, but it is technically placed with the "real" downbeat at the beginning.
The Phish song, "It's Ice" starts with a guitar phrase that on the album recording is accented in such a way that the downbeat seems to be on the first note. But when the rest of the band comes in you realize the first 3 notes of the guitar intro are actually a pickup to the downbeat which occurs on the 4th note.
I used to play that intro to the track over and over trying to force my ear to hear it correctly.
A similar thing happens in a solo piano piece by Ravel, "Une Barque sur l'Ocean". It's a 16th note figure in the right hand (starts in bar 92) that due to the contour of it, makes it difficult to hear the 1st note as the downbeat. It sounds like the 2nd note is the downbeat which in turn screws up your sense of the rhythm of the melody that plays under it in the left hand. It's another one of those that I fight to force my ear to hear it correctly and drive myself nuts doing!
I was always enthralled by how Videotape felt so lurching and strange even though it's just chords on the downbeat (or so I thought). I don't think they'd be able to replicate that feel if they thought of those chords as being the downbeat rather than the 8th note just before.
Haven't even watched one minute of your video yet but already you've explained the concept behind both those 10+ minute videos in a simple and understandable way. Love it!
Another good example would be Rufus & Chaka Khan's Tell Me Something Good, the intro starts on the "and" of 4, but can be confused as the downbeat until the drums enter
~8:40 (Re: Videotape): "there's no moment when the true downbeat is actually sounded"
There are actually two of such moments: First, the very first note/beat of the song (the very first piano chord strike, a dotted note). Second, a left hand open 5th strike halfway through the instrumental interlude (section with the humming).
EDIT: In addition to this, there is also faintly a metronomic ticking throughout the track which gets louder particularly closer to the end.
I think you might have made the same mistake I did and assumed that the top video of this song on TH-cam is the album version. I think that's actually a rogue live version.
Once In A Lifetime by Talking Heads still wrecks my head on the chorus. Even though the beat is the same all the way through, I always thought that the word ‘days’ in the chorus denotes the first beat of the bar. Letting the DAYS go by. And then they lose two beats to get back to the verse.
I have to actually remind myself now that isn’t what’s happening.
You should check out "the Butcher" for another Radiohead song that does this. To me it's the song I most enjoy this illusion in.
Finally someone else mentions this song. The drum pattern feels cold and blunt but is really one of their most complex
They made the rhythm of the other layers in a way that suggests a different beat that the bars begin on. So when the drums actually kick in, you are thinking of the wrong point where it starts. So it's surprizing as it reveals the truth. :)
I like especially how the singing rhythm still works either way, similar to how it also does in Pyramid Song.
Let's not forget that simple example at the beginning of "Bodysnatchers"! And I suppose we could even go way back to another simple example in the intro to "How Do You" on "Pablo Honey". I've always loved that about Radiohead. Well, actually, I've just always loved Radiohead. Radiohead's the biz. Mmmm-mm! Swell video. Many thanks.
The assortment of instruments in your studio drew me in. I listened to Gumboots and it is brilliant. You have a new fan!
Thanks a lot!
Fantastic video, David. One of my favourite examples of this kind of illusion is in the 3rd movement of Schumann's piano concerto (a fast 3/4). It's easy enough to find the downbeat in the movement's first theme, but I love how Schumann displaces the beat in the second theme, which tricks the listener into thinking that the music has moved into a slower 3/4. Genius!
I've always loved that about that song --Videotape.
Playing cello through junior high, high school, and college this type of trickery was always fun. Gotta pay super close attention to the conductor and the music.
You're great at making these music theory videos! Very enjoyable to watch!
thank you!
David, you're without a shade of doubt the funniest most interesting composer here on youtube. As a student of composition myself, struggling a bit right now to finish the portfolio for the exam, watching your videos is keeping me going like caffeine :) Thank you brother!
I am a composer from Toronto, and I am obsessed with your channel man ... keep it up please !
Great video! But I have to part ways with you on the "Scotch Snap" - it is NOT a rhythmic illusion - the dancers (or marchers) will nonetheless always step on the initial 1/16th note - but a more than usually sophisticated use of a the short note as an "on-the-beat pickup note" as a cue to the dancers. The result is a physicalization of the notion of "lilt" (lift?) in that the dancers seem to float on the rhythmic spaces created by the dotted eighths. This is what gives the Strathspey its unique movement characteristic. But nobody mistakes where the downbeat is.
Why, oh why, has only one person in these comments mentioned "Tell Me Something Good" by Rufus? I have heard SO many cover bands get the rhythm wrong because of the way it leads you down the wrong path. Great video; Thank you!
I remember struggling with the rhythm of Radiohead's "Pyramid Song" when I was trying to teach it to a student. I was so proud of myself when I finally figured it out. :~)
Another piece that I conceptualized incorrectly (for years I might add) is Michael Torke's "Adjustable Wrench." It's a really cool piece, and I suggest checking it out.
Oh man when you played the second beat example that was the actual beat for videotape, I got this crazy tingle. I couldn't quite tell in the first one what felt wrong but when you played the right one? Damn
James Brown probably deserves his own video on this
layladystay “On the ONE! “
Simple little revolution.
Very clear and well researched, superb commentary.
Keep on with the quality!
I love this illusion! The Smiths’ song This Charming Man and the song Antidote by The Hives can really throw you off with their intro guitars.
I see Radiohead in the title, I click.
I was not disappointed by this - great work!
Very nice. I love this subject. So many rock songs start with just guitars and I have some where I know where the downbeat is and I have to count it in my head so i don't get lost before the drums come in. There are songs I've heard 100 times and I still can't hear them right.
This is the best examples with the beat being played.. I finely kinda getting it. Great lesson.
A few more classical examples that come to mind: in Beethoven's 6th symphony, 3rd movement, the B theme is written in such a way that when you first hear it, it sounds like the oboe is coming in a beat too soon. Similarly, at the beginning of the 3rd movement of his 8th symphony, the strings sound like they begin their pattern on the down beat, but they are actually shifted a beat earlier, which makes it sound like the horns come in at the wrong time.
JImmy Page did this a lot with Led Zeppelin.
This is also done a lot in Reggae where lots of things are upside down.
A favourite example in rock/pop music is Start Me Up, by The Stones. Keef starts with an unaccompanied guitar riff that sounds exactly as if it kicks off on the first downbeat, but then Charlie Watts comes in with a heavy backbeat that turns the beat around. It still throws me whenever I hear it.
Perhaps not a full-blown rhythmic illusion, but a lovely subversion of expectations is in NoMeansNo's 'Can't Stop Talking'. When the other instruments join the bass and the rhythm is 'revealed', it not only establishes a great strong groove that must be nodded along to, but illustrates the driving constancy that the lyrics are all about.
I've been learning Bach's 1st cello suite (albeit on mandolin), and I'm constantly delighted and flustered at how ambiguous the bar line becomes. Considering they're solo pieces-and apt to heavy-handed rubato-heightens the ambiguity for me, where before I was able to just listen and feel perfectly secure where I was. Having the image of Bach as the zenith of beautiful mathematical perfection in my mind makes it weirder on a base level, but even more awesome (in the true sense) on realising how deep the logic goes.
I do not hear your count of the Brand New Heavies *AT* *ALL*. I listened to the actual song and the downbeat seems very clear. Is there an alternate take of this track?? Trying to reconcile your take on it is meeting with violent rhythmic resistance.
AtomicBuffalo exactly my point! We seem to miss something ;)
I don't think the explanation is very clear because the kick and snare patterns in the actual track are much more punchy and pronounced and show clearly where the groove lies. His demonstration is pretty weak.
I've only listened to it on here, but yeah, the rhythm seems to be accentuating the downbeat clearly and that's where the bass comes in. Don't get it. Whereas on the Herbie Hancock track. I automatically heard the downbeat and the suggestion of where the listener probably heard it didn't occur to me. I haven't heard Janet Jackson's song with it sampled, but I imagine they deliberately used it offbeat to create a different effect, ie JJ's song was the one with the rhythmic illusion. That's my take on it. Good to hear the rhythm on Videotape explained tho. Kind of mind-blowing.
Bollocks, just listened to Herbie Hancock track again and now I can only hear like he told us I probably would. He's messed my brane up.
agreed, don't hear what's up with the BNH track.
This also happens in the intros of Beetlebum by Blur and Aenemia by Tool
The most confusing part is that even though I know where the beat actually is it's still hard to hear it the right way before the other instruments join in
Good video! This is really common in some genres of dance music when the beat drops out for a few bars, or at the start before the beat comes in. 👍🏻
Nice video. I like how you had some other examples instead of just a Radiohead one.
Beetlebum - Blur
Automatic Stop - The Strokes
More rhythmic confusion.
Beetlebum "illudes" me everytime
Once I realized that the very first note of Beetlebum was actually the downbeat (and not the 4th beat of the previous bar) I can only hear it with the correct meter. But there are some songs like the Pixies' "Dig For Fire" or The Breeders cover of "Its the Love" that always throw me off, even though I know where the downbeat is supposed to be
Television - Marquee Moon
Street Fighting Man by The Rolling Stones
Yea automatic stop. It's all normal and then youre like what what?
Great and informative video! I've got another example for you if you're interested: the song Falling Away With You by Muse. The verse melody sounds like it's on the beat for the most part, but there seems to be an extra eighth note before the chorus. The second verse makes it a bit more clear that the soft melody and bass are actually both syncopated, because of the addition of the on-beat rim clicks, and that there was in fact no extra eighth note. Though, it is still subtle and tricky to pick up on. It kind of blew my mind when I could finally hear the syncopation, as it completely changes the groove.
I absolutely don’t understand your point at the piece from brand new heavies. The click you use to make something clear is to me on the eight note offs. To me everything is perfectly clear. Maybe the only thing is, that the real one seems to be there where the Snaredrum starts (or usually repenique)
agreed
On "Heresy" by Nine Inch Nails, I can never anticipate when the drums come in.
613 is the the. Sorry, couldn't help myself! Just found your channel and am loving it!
Very nice video!
Please make a video about the development of the orchestration in film music
My favourite Meshuggah song Combustion is built on the similar rhythmic illusion. What's remarkable about it is that it's never completely obvious which parts of the song have kick as beat 1 and which have snare as beat 1 (spoilers: it's kick for the whole song). Sneaky off-beat cymbal accents and vocals that in the middle part just go completely off-beat (I suppose 220 bpm doesn't help either) make this song so confusing, that after 7 years of hearing the song "my way" it blew my mind finally being able to hear it the way I would assume the band members hear it.
Oh thank you for that one! That is one of the best examples yet. I followed your advice and tried to listen to the kick drum but I just couldn't get my head to accept that as the downbeat. I guess I'll have to wait another 7 years!!
start clapping the beat at 110bpm form the first guitar note you hear. It´s a relaxed 4/4 beat all the way through!
just don´t get fooled by the three 16th-off-beat hi hats that count the drum part in ;)
Yeah, I figured the hi hats mess it up for most listeners (including me).
I was thinking of this song when watching the episode. It still haunts me till this day.
Thanks that helped and I could hear it the right way on my 2nd try
So cool! I loved the original video and this was an amazing sequel.
Loved this little video essay, the rhythm from Cameroon was super funky!
please do a video on the rhythms of meshuggah! They do a lot of quasi-polyrhythmic things where a 4/4 drum beat is played under a odd-timed riff that's in, say, 19/16 for example; but I suggest really listening to their albums 'A Violent Sleep of Reason' and 'Koloss'. there's so many intuitive yet bizarre rhythmic change ups that leave you bobbing your head to the beat yet confused at the same time, like the seamless transitions of quarter note to dotted quarter note feels in 'Clockworks', or the groovy syncopated rhythms of 'Nostrum' or 'The Hurt That Finds You First.'
Radiohead's "Bodysnatchers", from the same album, starts off with a similar rhythmic illusion, but it only lasts 4 bars before the drums come in. Also, "Pyramid song" is another good example.
Royal Blood has a lot of these as well, I love them a lot! The first one that comes to mind is Lights Out, but I think there's another as well.
I’d always wondered what makes that signature rhythm on Radiohead’s later albums, particularly In Rainbows. Now I think I know, thanks!
As another classical example, I seem to remember in Berlioz's symphony fantastique finale, there's a place where every note is syncopated for about 10 or 20 bars, it really does have that effects of disorienting you, it's near the end of the piece if I recall correctly.
Intro to Simon and Garfunkel - Cecilia, always kinda gets me. Easy once you purposefully concentrate on the kick in the introduction but its never what my ear actually feels is happening.
Hearing that Cameroonian piece towards the end made it clear to me the sort of sounds and compositions that informed Radiohead’s last two albums. :)
Great video! The intro to ‘mad world’ by tears for fears is another example....
There are a couple of good examples of these in Chick Corea's Children's Songs - specifically number 1 and number 4. They're both in 6/8 and employ a quaver on the downbeat followed by a crotchet. When certain melodies are added it can make the downbeat sound on the crotchet and the quaver feel like an upbeat. Number 4 plays with this well and so sounds as if the pulse slightly changes from section to section.
I find this illusion particularly strong in the Prodigy's "Firestarter." Even though it opens with an explosive downbeat, the following riff has such a strong rhythmic pull that it throws the downbeat out of context until the verse starts.
All the best rock tunes have this 8th note displacement in the guitar riffs. A few that don't start where you think they start:
You Really Got Me - The Kinks
Shake Your Foundations - AC/DC
Panama - Van Halen
i hope that David Bruce likes the topic this video is about, should consider making a video on how chris dave used and developed all this rithmic displacements and illusions, also with metric modulation, in a way he can improvise with it i can make a compilation of quotes
I have a composition that features clapping and stomping constant quarter notes. It sounded best on the beat during the verses and off the best during the short bridges between the versus. Instead altering the clapping, I removed an eight note from the beginning of the bridge and added it to the end of the bridge. This way the clapping remains constant while everything else shifts around it.
It's great fun to perform this live and get the audience clapping. You can tell who the musicians are because they suddenly look bewildered coming out of the first bridge and into the verse. It's like aural judo.
Is there a recording of your composition? That sounds super cool!
Thankyou, this is fascinating. In answer to your question at the end, I would love to hear more about African rhythms and how they interlock together to produce these great patterns.
Also, changing the placement of the "real" downbeat often results in subtle changes in the way musicians feel and phrase the overlaying textures and melodies, even if they are faithfully maintaining an illusory beat accent and macro phrase. Even precise orchestral musicians playing a scherzo with deceptive rhythmic structure may practice for hours to ensure they're "playing the ink", but almost none are trying to trick their brains into believing the off beats are actually on the beat (which equates to not really counting correctly), and that realization of where the beat actually is forces everyone's brain to process the phrases slightly differently than they would have processed it otherwise.
It would be a fun experiment to take phrases of an original work with deceptive rhythmic structures, arrange the same phrase written two or more different ways in relation to the beat, record it (perhaps even with just one instrument or section), and then compare the interpretation of the phrases. Yes, there are times that musicians need to truly sell the off beats as on beats (particularly with regard to where the accent may be) and perhaps even shape the macro phrase contrary to the perceived beat, but I doubt even the most seasoned professional musicians will completely eliminate subtle changes from the entire phrase when the beat placement changes if they're actually counting the real beat.
But perhaps I'm wrong. I've practiced for long hours to achieve this sort of transparency in works I perform and I know I have to put more effort into such counting, which I believe changes my interpretation slightly even if I'm achieving the desired affect, but I'm also not in The NY Phil. So perhaps that tier of musicians don't really think about it as much as we traveling regional musicians.
I find the jazz and classical Indian music relationship quite cool. Your videos are very interesting :)
Great video, look forward to more!
I believe the begining of MDK from Magma is also an exemple of that, at least, it seems that you have two ways of understanding the pattern that don't sound the same.
Michael Landau's I'm buzzed gets me every time. I can't keep hold of the downbeat.
Another good example is “This is your life” by The Killers. It starts with a rhythmical choir and a bassline. I believe they are off by half a beat.
I've always hated the rhythmic illusions, they're so frustrating, because i always try to hear them "the right way", but it's so hard sometimes, even if i count along loudly 😄
SO, all those times I was worried about not knowing where the downbeat was, the truth was that nobody actually knows? And it really doesn't matter? Whoa man
The intro of "You" on Pablo honey is also a great example of rhythmic illusion.
Hello! I've been looking for a detailed explanation of the Cameroonian song KOPOLO for a long time and here I found something! Thank you. Could you make a video detailing guitar, bass, percussion and vocals? You'd be thankful all over the world! Greetings from Argentina!
Very thorough video..great job, thank you!! I use a basis of rhythm to teach vocals..Some of my students are ready to see this. Awesome!
The Brand New Heavies example screwed with my head a ton for some reason
It's because he's wrong. He puts his beats on the and.
He nailed it.
Metallica's Blackened is a great example of this. For years I always thought the downbeat was in the wrong place.
Awesome video. Really great!
Not sure if this counts, but the rhythm in Bone Machine by the Pixies always kind of messes with me.
_Battery Acid_ by Queens of the Stone Age always fucks with me
TUNE!
I reckon it's the heavy snare on the 1. It's odd not to have the kick on the 1...
I agree, it has a unique rhythm. The rhythm actually makes it a bit difficult for me to play the rhythm guitar section sometimes.
OH MY GOD same. Always confuses me.
Not really a hidden rhythm. What confuses you its the fact that David Lovering every few bars changes the beat from starting with the kick to starting with the snare. Or simply put, sometimes he plays it normally, other times he plays it "backwards". It also ads to the effect the fact that the guitars and specially the bass are so tightly syncopated with the drums and they keep the syncopation as if no elements on the drum were changed.
I was like this a video of another video, but I was wrong, I love this kind of Knowledge!!
The beginning of "Between Us and Them" by Moving Units always gets me too.
This reminded me of the Polish carol W żłobie leży, which has a simple ¾ mazurka rhythm with a strong second beat. But in English language hymnals, the barlines are usually moved, and the former second beat becomes the first beat and the original first beat becomes an upbeat.
The song Trip by Jizue did that to me most recently. Took me ages to work out it was in 5, and that the first piano chord was on the 2nd semiquaver! You might be interested in Inmazes by the band Vola as another example.
Also, a local band once sampled the opening of Vivaldi's A minor violin concerto, but a quaver too late!
Really interesting topic and really well made video. Thx
Nice, there's also the video "Groove Discrepancies" by Aimee Nolte with lots of examples in the description.
And just a few more of my favorite examples of this - "Tell Me Something Good" (Chaka Khan and Rufus), "Walking In Memphis" (Marc Cohn), "Free Ride" (Edgar Winter Group), and Bonham's intro to "Rock and Roll" (Led Zeppelin).
"Spirits in the Material World" was another one that tripped me up....
Excellent analysis, great examples!
This always fascinated me. Most of the examples in the comments I was aware of, the rest I'll have to listen to next. I'll give your one more. Pocket Calculator by Kraftwerk. I always felt the first note as the and of 4 before the drums come in.
Gone by Montgomery Gentry was an example of this for me. When the guitar arpeggio comes in, I thought it came in on a quarter note instead of an eighth note.
This made me hear it correctly at first due to the first guitar sound, then incorrectly due to the arpeggio, and then correctly again thanks to the shaker.
There's an upside down uke, a bowling ball on a high shelf, and an off-level venetian blind. Your studio is full of tricky visual rhythms! Good content though!😁
Check out Andy Akiho's NO one To kNOW one. There's a great section in the middle that feels like it's written in compound time, while it is in fact not. The vibraphone and glockenspiel are playing a pattern whose pulses are felt on every consecutive dotted eight note in the context of a four bar phrase of 3 bars of 4/4 and 1 bar of 3/4. The Flute, clarinet, and cello play long tones that land on down beats, creating an off kilter feeling; meanwhile, the piano plays consecutive triplets against all this! One of my favorite examples of this concept. Really hope you have the chance to give it a listen.
The snare ghost notes on Weird Fishes can mess with your ears. Makes it sound like there's extra notes.
Some of my favorite pieces do exactly this. If you like Cuban trova, there's Silvio Rodríguez's "Y Mariana". And for videogame chiptune fans there's Pokémon Red & Blue's Rocket Hideout theme.
Ben Folds Five's 'Kate' creates a kind of rhythmic illusion before the drums come in. I get the impression as I listen that the piano and bass were recorded without a click track so there's a minor adjustment when the drums enter. In other words, the musicians seem a little fooled as well as we are as listeners ;)