How to write music for instruments you CAN’T PLAY
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 มิ.ย. 2024
- How do composers write for instruments they don't actually play? It's a question that non-composers often ask - and one that composers themselves often ask themselves. In this video I provide some answers.
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#composers #composing #sibelius
0:00 Intro
01:05 The rule of pie
01:48 Problem 1 - learning from books
03:33 Problem 2 - learning from Sibelius/Musescore
06:40 The reason for making the video
08:14 Solution 1
10:17 Solution 2
13:53 Solution 3
15:31 Crazy Bass solo
17:00 The Ode to Joi-ning my Patreon - เพลง
As a double bassist, this video made me so giddy! We have the best harmonics and we never get to use them. The double harmonics (where the stopped note is another harmonic) really open the door of possibilities so much wider! Keep up the great work!
Could you explain this a little more please? Thanks.
@@itznoxy7193 Of course!
Natural Harmonics- lightly touch on the open string
Artificial harmonics- press down a note and lightly touch ahead of that note at the same time
Double harmonics- lightly make a natural harmonic and then lightly touch ahead of that harmonic making a harmonic of a harmonic.
Dam, never knew it's a thing
@@collinmccookcomposer hey, can you tell me more? I'm a composer and I never heard of this. Say you're in your G string and you're playing the first harmonic (G up an octave) and also pressing down the D up a fifth. Would that be a double harmonic? What would it sound like?
Fascinating. It's like harmonic-ception.
While Sibelius is amazing (and is what I use) another major problem with it is the dark red notes or the hard to play notes. As a double bassist myself, Sibelius says anything from an f (2 ledger lines above a bass staff) is hard when in reality it’s pretty easy. This leads to so many composers, even professionals avoiding these notes which can lead to pretty angry bass sections who are always given boring parts. I’ve heard that this is a major problem for horns too!
I think Sibelius (and similar apps) need to show difficulty in terms of pedagogical levels. For middle school and even early high school, anything over that F would be a new challenge for them, but even normal ensemble rep for a collegiate player will regularly go as high as the Bb above that (this happens multiple times in Pictures (Ravel's orchestration))!
Finale does this too, but you can go into settings and adjust it for expected ability level.
Yes - horn (the French one) has a massive range (especially when you get to professional instruments that are actually double/triple horns in multiple keys) and it's not uncommon for the entire part of the highest and lowest voicings in a 4-horn choir to be in the "red zone". It's a shame, because some of the most characteristic tonalities are in the no-no area; horn is often valued as a blending voice in the middle register but everyone loves a good melodramatic run up to a blaring high horn.
@@abassyomi.o the real problem is that note pitch is only one of many factors that determine how difficult a note is to play. On many instruments you have some individual notes that are much easier than the neighbouring ones, or individual notes that speak much worse than their neighbours. And let's not even begin with how much _context_ factors into it.
This _could_ be accounted for by software, but it would actually need to simulate the mechanics of how the instrument is played and include an algorithm / AI that maps the notes onto that, rather than just playing them off as pre-recorded samples that know nothing about _fingers_.
@@leftaroundabout Some virtual instruments are like this. My own guitars, for example, model three different hand positions on the neck, plus a "solo mode" that is basically an implementation of the three-notes-per-string method. The thing about that sort of control is that nobody bothers unless they already are aware that they need to, since instruments (virtual or physical) are generally set up sanely, assuming normal operating conditions. They should only do strange things in response to a specific request to do so. If you don't know how to ask, you'll never find them.
The orchestral piece at the end is a modern microtonal masterpiece!
Absolutely love the sequenced piece you did with the bass! You might find the money you need for orchestral composing by releasing more commercial music like that! I would love to hear an hour of something like that! ...and, of course, your orchestral work!
Can't wait for the "David Bruce's Flatulent Brass" sample library.
As a double bass player, first of all thank you so much for trying your best to compose for such a tough instrument to understand practically. I'd like to point out that pizzicato close to the bridge may be possible, but when the strings are caked with thick bass rosin it usually doesn't produce as full of a sound. Something cool that you could explore is also the tip of the bow and how it can bounce between two strings going up and down between the end of the fingerboard and the bridge, it produces a really cool waterfall sort of technique that no composer seems to utilize. There's a wonderful online resource called ACTOR that tries to decode each instrument and ways to better understand them for composing using real musicians. If you ever happen to fall upon my "techniques for the tip of the bow" video, thank you.
Where can i find that resource? Can you send a link, please?
@@kristadzive No. TH-cam no longer allows us to have nice things like links because it makes people stop watching videos. Any comment with a non-YT link is instantly deleted across the entire platform.
@@mal2ksc ayy, sadness
@@mal2ksc you can spell out a link by using spaces in between the dots and slashes
As a percussionist I so often see parts written that appear to be written by someone wilfully lacking any understanding of how the instrument is played. Your comments on idiomatic writing resonate strongly - I could probably play that part at a push, but it won't sound like my instrument nor like what the composer wanted. (Timpani and drum kit being the usual culprits for poorly written parts).
It's refreshing to see your approach, and I agree that getting hands on with the instrument can't be beaten, along with seeking counsel from an experienced player.
Too often in music there is an idea of 'composer writes, delivers the score, performer makes happen', with a real detachment between the two. A more collaborative workshop process, as seen in theatre acting for example, can lead to a far stronger artistic outcome. Communication is good!
Loved the video too, keep being you Mr Bruce!
From a violist and fellow composer, please loosen your bow David. The middle of the bow should be tip-of-pinky width, or slightly larger for those with smaller hands. That being said, with a little bit of weight in the arm, you'd honestly have quite good tone for someone who doesn't play regularly.
Your “Ode” was tremendous! 👏👏👏 And as a composer who is currently writing string quartet with a lot of harmonics, I appreciate your suffering! ❤
As a chorister, there are definitely times that I can tell the composer didn't sing my part. I think the point about violin fingering is a good one; there's a difference between something that's technically physically possible and something that the player likes you enough to actually do for you.
If as a chorister, you've never thought about your part, 'a pianist wrote this, didn't they?' then you've been lucky 😊
Actually, that violin example isn’t even a matter of the player liking it enough to actually do it. It’s impossible to perform that without hurting your hand
Great video. This is a common problem for musicians who make music solely with sample libraries--often they have no idea how these instruments are actually played, what their limitations are, and what's actually compelling to the musicians who play them. Guitar and bass are two of the most common. When keyboard players who don't play those two instruments compose/arrange using them, they just don't sound authentic, because the phrasing they would come up with would sound nothing like what actual guitar and bass players would come up with. I went through this myself, starting out as a keyboard player, and tried to use synths and sample libraries to emulate guitar and bass, and they never sounded convincing. But once I actually became a guitar and bass player, my writing for those parts was night and day better. Eventually, it got to the point where I would prefer to just play the instruments for my recordings instead of using sample libraries, because I could actually play the parts more convincingly and more expressively.
This is suuuch a big problem with modern composition. Sometimes access to tools isn't a beneficial thing. Most people would likely be better off stuck with a piano exclusively and writing on that while studying other instruments first, rather than diving into VSTs. I know I would have.
that piece/performance at the end was definitely one of the performances I've ever listened to
To solve the issue at 12:52, you can lightly pluck the string (not a full pizz) each time upon leaving the harmonic to return to the open note more quickly. It's not always feasible, and still takes a little time, but it helps in a bunch of pieces.
Yep. I do that on my lyre too. Takes some practice but can be effective.
When you’re playing the violin/viola, to get a full tone you need to use the weight of your arm to press the bow into the string but you also need to use your index and thumb to transfer that weight into the string, you use more pressure in your index finger and thumb when playing at the tip and less pressure when playing at the frog.
Also drop your elbow and loosen up your fingers and wrist. 😊
This was a fun one. Loved your bass montage and the final ode, putting yourself out there lol :)
This video reminds me of the process on how bands write songs. Nowadays, the use of virtual instruments means that the main songwriter of the band can program parts for different instruments and make a demo. The same hurdles of the song not being "PIE" totally apply if they have no idea how the instrument works.
I'm laughing out loud (not just lol) at your final piece! It sounds a lot like me trying to play those instruments! And I totally agree, there is nothing like trying to play the instrument yourself to gain some familiarity with it's physical properties. I also loved the bass riff with all the weird sounds you got from it.
I got an email request to Telegram you, but I have a landline and it doesn't Telegram. Just so you know
You just brought back a couple of core memories for me with this video! The first was that I decided to take up double bass and 4-mallet marimba in high school because of a special computer programming course I was in. I practiced it a lot and learned... some. I'm too short to play the double bass, but it really sparked my love of composing and the love of working with the player who has the expertise. And I learned a lot about strings! Then in college when doing my composition degree, I wrote a piece for clarinet and piano, but I worked closely with the clarinetist as she is a friend and amazing at clarinet. To this day, its still one of my favorite pieces I've ever written and had performed. The performance itself felt magical; I really fully connected with that piece more than any before. And watching this video gave me an idea for a piece I've been working on for 2 years because something has been missing and finally I know what was missing and who I need to talk to! Thank you! Love your videos!
I don't know how I missed this one. You are hilarious. I have had the same problems with Sibelius, and you have given me some answers as to how to wrestle with them. I wrote a piece for Shakuhachi and two harps, but stopped when I couldn't find anyone willing to look at the harp parts, so I got a hard copy of 'EXERCICES ET ETUDES pour La Harpe', and right there saw exactly what I wanted from the instrument. Thank you for your invaluable instruction.
Love your bass performance. They are really great noise machines. I'm just learning how to make mine talk. Great video, as always.
3:50 My First String Quartet by B. Ginner, that's some wit, love these small details
grateful it was noticed ;-)
@@DBruce Love your videos and that performance at the end was a thing of beauty
The electronic piece you made with the bass reminded me a lot of The Books which is awesome because I absolutely adore their misuc
Lol the double bass remix is AMAZIGN!! I would listen to a whole track
You have really demonstrated what value you can extract when you blend public relations, technology, street smarts, experience, and of course spirit of experimentation! Really insightful video. Thanks for making this one. Really helpful for any collaborative art project.
The only thing I'd say about getting your own instrument is be careful because some sounds might only be possible on your instrument, especially if it's quite a cheap one. I've gotten into trouble in the past for trying to get professionals to imitate my rather uneducated scrapings. Also some instruments, like the clarinet have different fingerings depending on the maker which can also lead to awkward moments in rehearsals.
Solution 3 among others! It requires loooong time but it's so sadisfying! (Writing this while my cheap cello is under an inch of dust 🤭😅)
One among the best music channels on TH-cam. Very unique content. Keep up the good work sir.
17:00 oh boy that was a delight 😂😂
TART - Tremendous, Accurate, Revelatory and Thoughtful. Thank you and congratulations for your work!
Amazing video! Great ending, (and bass sequence)!
As a performing musician who just got into composing (because of school, but I'm very glad for it), this video showed me the right way! Thanks a lot, David!
This whole video is amazing. Fantastic job David!
It is so much fun to watch you and to learn from you!
Love how your videos are informative and entertaining at the same time.
Keep up the good work!
Thank you for another great video, David! Loved the bass sample/beat part, and the outro ode was epic! :-D
Since all the strings are out there giving performance advice, I thought I'd throw one in for flute too : to improve sound quality and go easier on your back and neck, you really want to keep the instrument as horizontal as possible :)
Daniel Hope played in Villingen some months ago and I was at his Concert (because I live in Villingen) this is amazing!!!
This advice rings so true, especially for arranging/composing for voice. Peoples’ voices are truly idiomatic, even at the individual level, and being able to write for their voice in mind makes a piece really shine!
Thanks for sharing all that experience, David. Really useful!
this post is such a treasure! thanks for posting this __ such an important concept not often spoken about.
I'm glad I got to see/hear that treat at the end :D
6:11 is so brilliant!
I play the 4-string Greek bouzouki which is quite a non-intuitive instrument - most of the time you should play only the top 2 strings as the bottom 2 have different timbre. You commonly play with a lot of hammer-ons if you want it to sound "bouzoukish". You sustain notes with Tremolo or fast hammer-ons, etc.
A while ago, I was given sheet music to 13 newly-arranged pieces to learn in 3 weeks for a large concert (audience of several thousand people). It was obvious from the sheet music that the person who wrote it had no idea how a bouzouki is played (he is a known mandolin player). After struggling with the sheet music for 2 days I ended up refusing to perform at this concert, as I had no time memorizing acrobatic ways to play what he wanted, and I hated how it sounded.
I live in Zürich and I am so going to come and see the performance at Tonhalle. I used to go there as a kid some 40 years ago.
Great work here, succinct, informative, interesting, inspiring and hilarious! Bravo!
Thank you! I've been hoping you would do this video!
This is a really great video! I've also found having the instrument (and knowing enough to halfway play) to be super important for writing well for an instrument.
funnily enough, you have been able to look at composing from many directions. what is most admirable is that its mystification has ended.
Thank you for these valuable videos!
This video, as a whole, is a masterpiece! Not only are you a talented composer, but you also have an excellent command of Adobe After Effects )
It's great to play at least a few super basic sounds on as many instruments as possible I think. Also study scores as much as possible. This is a goldmine.
I can't help but recall how Paul McCartney wanted a horn solo for "For No One" and the horn player hated it because it was in B major with a bVII chord, making it really hard to play- and yet I still think that solo is really pretty nevertheless.
oh that was just fantastic David!
I love your ‘the lick’ shirt!
A wonderful piece!! Thank you very much!
Thanks for making this, I was actually just searching for advice on this topic a couple weeks ago.
Your video skills just keep getting more impressive! 😁 I've had to rely on notation software (and I've tried them all) most of my life, since I haven't had actual musicians to torture. The software never complains. Fortunately, that's going to change this coming spring; one of my major works is finally going to be performed and I'll be able to hear what real people do with those notes. But I also think of Stravinsky, who pushed the boundaries of what musicians thought they could do. If he had stayed with what they found comfortable, we never would have had Rite of Spring.
@officialDavidBruceComposer Yes, let’s.
I really like your videos and learn something from each one. As another suggestion: although it would be very time-consuming, if you have the opportunity, go and sit in on some local rehearsals of a local orchestra, concert band (wind band, in the UK, I believe), big band, or whatever other ensembles you are interested in writing for. I was a keyboardist and pianist in the USAF and Army bands for a 27-year career and I also did a fair amount of arranging. It's amazing how much you can pick up just listening to the various instruments in those kinds of contexts. The idiomatic usage, and yes, especially the things that are hard for them to do, or the things that are impossible. Make friends with a player of each instrument, take them out for coffee, or a beer, and just have them talk about it. And listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. Although it's a LOT of work, eventually all these sounds start getting sorted out in your head and you find yourself hearing ideas spontaneously coming to you. Another thing I always tell students that I teach is, if there is a sound that you hear that piques your interest, always ask yourself, "what does that sound look like on paper?"
Just my two cents' worth. Thanks again for posting.
PMH
This 3rd method is what Kalevi Aho supposedly does whenever writing a new concerto. And he has written a lot of them!
Great & helpful video!👌
Great idea follow along of own works! I’ll be doing some soon!
This video brings me so much joy ❤
Great video Dave!
Love "the lick" shirt, David!
Thanks for the plug for the work of the Really Terrible Orchestra at the end
Duuuudde! Your awesome double bass, extended techniques beat would have made for a great teaser at the beginning of your video!! So cool. Nicely done. I imagine you spent more time on that then the rest of the video. Nicely done!
David, I so appreciate the video production quality and how it uplifts already amazing content.
I am not a composer, nor am I a worthwhile musician, but I have at times wondered about the subjects covered here,
so this video was quite interesting and satisfied some of my curiosity. Well done.
We will watch B. Ginner's career with great interest!
The Ode at the end made my day!🤣👌
Your rendition of ode to joy was beautiful!
came for the composing,. stayed for that final bop!
Hey, just a quick tip about alternating harmonics and the raw string on violin and double bass.
It's true that the string might get " stuck " with the harmonic sound and i found a way to resolve the issue.
I was working on a solo double bass pièce with a fellow double bass player and we came out with this : if you want to keep hearing the low note of the string against the harmonic you need to LEFT HAND PIZZ at a continous rate at the spot where you would touch the harmonic.
This way the harmonic keeps ringing AND you get the sound of the low string by doing the left hand pizz.
Hope it helped Bruce and thank you for this video !
At 16:08 classic Mark E Smith face
Awesome video, as usual!
4:44 - Wow, crank down the tension on your bow Bruce; gets me tense just looking at it… 🤪
Check out your beautiful clarinet tone! And your average violin tone! 😂 Great video David!
average is extremely generous 😂
Loved the IDM double bass :D
Excellent video!!
Listening to music with the score available gives you an idea of what the instruments excell at
It’s how I learned to write for strings
Cool editing in this one
6:12 so genius!
hahah...the end piece sounds like my old high school band........we were awesome!.....
That was painful at the end! 😂. I didn't know harmonics got stuck on the bigger strings, even though I have played bass and cello for years! Always something to learn!
Yooo I'll definitely get tickets for your violin concerto! What luck to live so close to Zürich!
So happy to see this video from you, David! Super helpful as this is something I've been battling with and rabbit hole I've been down lately. Keep the content coming!
this is so cool ♡♡♡
That percussion on the double bass! It reminded me fondly of Astor Piazzola's Onda Nueve (:! Cheers to you David.
There you go, for any lurker out there:
watch?v=xwsPGCoFFc4
In the end, the best compositions are the ones that are tailored to the instruments they are written for. By taking into account the normal ranges and playability of each instrument, composers can create pieces that truly showcase the unique qualities and capabilities of each instrument, resulting in truly memorable music. However it’s a long learning curve especially to learn any special techniques that an instrument possesses - Sibelius can only give you a leg up to get you started - there’s nothing like hearing an experienced player play your composition for you - but you’re likely to have less experienced players when you’re beginning I think Sibelius is really useful then - as for double bass harmonics it goes to show how complex an instrument can be and what a good player can get out of it. Excellent video.
is there already a date for the Tonhalle premiere? As someone living in Zurich, im intrigued.
not yet, but I think it's September
BRILLIANT!
That was a funny video. In the case of the horn, like Gunther Schuller wrote in his book, a little knowledge about the horn can be worse than no knowledge at all. The horn is quite tricky, and even horn players don't agree every time about how to use the techniques. My doctoral research was about the idiomatic writing of horn players, I plan to release a book with some information on that, based in one of the chapters, something that will benefit both horn players and composers.
Applause for the Ode finale. Best thing since Portsmouth Sinfonia.
Did not expect you to have a Boss looper in your setup. I'd love to hear how that factors into your compositional style.
Holy cow!!! I had to pause this video right at 16:27 and let that AMAZING bass 'thing' sink in. How amazing!
I quite often post my stuff to musescore with a note on it saying I’d be very grateful if someone who plays the instrument well could offer pointers on this or that part.
Great video as awalys!
12:12 - I'm getting "Walk on the Wild Side" vibes.
Tip 3 is working well for me. I decided I wanted to start writing songs, and I didn't want to rely on synths or samples for everything. So I bought an inexpensive electric bass, which I did not know how to play (I can barely play the guitar, so I'm not working with much here). Initially, I was planning on writing and testing bass lines in my DAW as MIDI, then learning to play those basslines. I was a little concerned that I could write something that I really liked the sound of, but then couldn't actually play it, especially with my extremely limited abilities. Then I'd have to change it, but I'd feel regret over "losing" the first bass line.
Fortunately, that wasn't too much of a concern after all, as I had zero inspiration or creative juices flowing for the first bass line. Then I decided, "Why don't I just try composing _on_ the instrument?" So I looped a stock rhythm and the main chord progression, and as it looped over and over again I just tried stuff out on the bass. I think it only took me five or ten minutes to come up with something I really liked that was within my abilities to actually perform. It was really surprising that it came together so quickly, as I don't have a great deal of skill or experience in improvisation.
Of course, a fretted electric bass is relatively easy to "pick up" (not "master" or even "impress"; just "pick up"), when compared to a lot of other instruments a person might find themselves composing for. If you're fortunate enough to be stuck on a bass part, and you have a friend who will lend you their instrument, it may be worthwhile to play through some beginner tutorials on TH-cam for a few hours and then see if you can come up with something. For crash courses like that, I don't recommend studying scales and finger exercises and theory for the instrument. Just skip straight to beginner tutorials on how to play songs you like that are in the genre you're writing for.
That bass piece was awesome
Totally agree re getting your hands on an instrument. I'm mainly a pianist, but have been writing some cello and piano arrangements for high school cello students. I did a much better job after taking months of cello lessons (with a rented cello), to better understand the mechanics of the instrument.
@ 12:50 - use a left hand pizz to (help) get the open string attack
Love Christopher Cerrone!
Idk if somebody mentioned it, but this guy is a magician! When the plug alert was on the screen at 8:46 i was notified that my laptop was low on battery. Great job David, i like your channel! (P.S. i'm a guitarist)