Love these discussions and all of your content. I hope you’re aware of how refreshing it is to have someone in the field that is willing to share and teach without any layer of curmudgeonry. I used to enjoy the character of the curmudgeon in media such as Car Talk with Click and Clack, but I’ve found the real world curmudgeon’s to be less entertaining and often lack the core of curiosity and caring that I assumed was required to build and maintain relationships and knowledge towards what we’re trying to accomplish. You’ve helped me fast track so many plans and methods that I’m implementing in my shop. I really can’t thank you enough!
Hey Chuck, I'm moving into a new house and looking to setup a nice workbench area in my garage. I'd love to see a video of your shop, and listen to you talk about what makes a good efficient layout, how much counter space you need, etc. I feel like you have a ton of valuable experience to share with the rest of us here. Thanks!
My son and are building a 99 rm 125 and we went with a sleeve in the cylinder due to the fact cylinders are so hard to come by now.. this way we can bore several times before worrying about another sleeve jib..
It works but I’m not a fan of the extra cost & down time. The iron bore won’t last as long between top ends as the nikasil and it will need to be honed or bored by a machinist at every service.
Lots of good information in this video. However, I still am not able to determine if my cylinder needs a hone or a re-plate job. Bike is 2022 Beta 200RR Race Edition. Doing a top end while I have the engine out for a new starter & bendix. Bike was starting and running fine, but hours were unknown on top end. No scratches in the bore. No discoloring. It is VERY smooth and almost "mirror like" shiny. Zero crosshatch that I can see with my eye's. Does it just need a re-diamond hone? Or should it be re-plated? Or can I run it with a new piston and rings? I ordered a 61.95mm A piston. And unfortunately I do not have a bore gauge. Not sure what to do.
I have another video where I show 3 different methods of measuring the bore. If your bore is smooth, measuring it will be the ultimate factor. It would certainly be ideal to hone it with a diamond stone but someone who knows what they’re doing (should be someone at any engine machine shop) with an aluminum-oxide hone could add some cross hatch too.
You are not the only one to notice the ring difference. I have done less than 100 top ends over the years but it went from never filing rings to always the last few years. And this is on older Japanese 2 strokes.
i just got my cylinder nikasil, done and a fresh piston not even broken in driven it around my yard, a few times done the ring gap as specified by the manufacturer, and the nikasil is all grainy looking and feels and looks like a gray wet stone for sharpening knives and the piston and rings look ok in comparison it has a few scratches it shouldn't have, does anybody know what i done wrong or could it be bad Nikasil i have never had any problems in the past with the company that does it they have done this cylinder once before and a few other bikes for me, usually the Nikasil has a gold tint to it, this time it looked like brushed stainless
@@ChuckfromTrueTech ring gap 0.65mm, i can fit the top of a 0.45mm feeler gauge, between the piston and cylinder, the piston is vertex tm racing, B71.94, 22-08 32059, cylinder i could only measure with a digital caliper, i got between 71.99mm to 72.04mm
I brought it down to the chop that sent it away to be coated and they said it was water damage, but the markings are concentrated around were the rings would be active like dead on, were the rings stop TDC and BDC, and the coating on the piston is flaking of in some parts
As an automotive machine shop owner and an engine machinist I’ll say that one big detail that can be more of a challenge when building any engine is burrs. As always it’s not what you can see and solve it’s about what you can’t see that ends up hurting. When it comes to scratched cylinders the struggle is real. Most often when customers file fit rings the smallest burr left around the ring end gap from the file process is the culprit. I’ve seen cases where a slight burr on the ring end gap ended up doing damage to the ring land in the piston preventing the ring from rotating in the bore. Of course scratches were visible in the bore. The ring land told the tale. Not to say that the ring end gap needs to be champhered more. Just cleaner with finer abrasive. Wipe the ring end gaps with a high lint cloth of some sort. This way you can see the burr snag the lint and do the work necessary to smooth it over. Same with the cylinder champher. It should be just very slight not a grossly wide champher. Yet again burrs are the last thing you want. The process to champher that bore substrate can leave a very slight lip on both sides of the champher. If that very fine champher isn’t addressed with either a fine piece of Emory paper or even scotch brite, the fine little burr on either side will break off when you’re installing them in the bore. I do not advocate building engines with high lint shop rags. They can do major damage in extreme cases. However using a high lint cloth to brush over these areas if you’re seeing lint build up it’s likely showing you a fine burr that you need to address. Only after you know that the burrs are not snagging lint should a final assembly wash be done. This issue happens in the automotive world much more than in the motorcycle engine world due to the fact that the pistons are installed from the top and the piston skirts often protrude out the bottom. Cylinder champher responsibility is double. In this case high lint rags can be useful. I’ve seen the slightest of burrs cause more problems that anything. They’re like paper cuts. Can’t even see them but the pain can be great. These burrs I’m speaking about will be about the same. Can’t see them but if you rub your fingers over them they will leave fine cuts on your fingers. It’s those fine almost microscopic burrs that are the problem.
@@hughobrien4139 na i polished the cylinder got the gritty texture out started the engine for 10 maximum, pulled the head off and the gritty streaks are back, no scratches i think it's a bad nickel job or something
We're all passionate about this stuff, consumers and businesses. But as a consumer I need the industry to exist, and if it's not profitable then it won't exist, so I'm happy to pay a fair price for professional services.
St. Pierre Moteur in Qc is the other plating company, I've used them, seemed like a great company. They gave me a Purolator account number, so I could send my cylinder in, and they charge roughly $450 for a 300 KTM, they also offered a piston which needs to be matched to the cylinder plating. In the future I would maybe just let them sell me the piston they offered. The only downside I saw to this whole procedure is they want you to put your CC information on a sheet you fill out and send with the cylinder.
Love these discussions and all of your content. I hope you’re aware of how refreshing it is to have someone in the field that is willing to share and teach without any layer of curmudgeonry.
I used to enjoy the character of the curmudgeon in media such as Car Talk with Click and Clack, but I’ve found the real world curmudgeon’s to be less entertaining and often lack the core of curiosity and caring that I assumed was required to build and maintain relationships and knowledge towards what we’re trying to accomplish.
You’ve helped me fast track so many plans and methods that I’m implementing in my shop. I really can’t thank you enough!
I love to hear it. Thanks!
Legends! Great chat, thanks for the info.
Thanks for doing this Chuck - such an interesting discussion with very useful information.
Hey Chuck, I'm moving into a new house and looking to setup a nice workbench area in my garage. I'd love to see a video of your shop, and listen to you talk about what makes a good efficient layout, how much counter space you need, etc. I feel like you have a ton of valuable experience to share with the rest of us here. Thanks!
That sounds like a good topic for a video! I’ll try & do it soon!
@@ChuckfromTrueTech That would be awesome! Our move in date is Oct, so we have some time :p
Awesome video!
Any comment on the quality of plating with the aftermarket cylinders? How about re plating the aftermarket cylinders? Thanks for all you do.
I’ve never had an issue with replated aftermarket cylinders. 🤷♂️
This video answered a ton of questions for me thanks 🙏
My son and are building a 99 rm 125 and we went with a sleeve in the cylinder due to the fact cylinders are so hard to come by now.. this way we can bore several times before worrying about another sleeve jib..
It works but I’m not a fan of the extra cost & down time. The iron bore won’t last as long between top ends as the nikasil and it will need to be honed or bored by a machinist at every service.
I'm wondering if the porosity helps with lubrication?
Some claim it does.
Lots of good information in this video. However, I still am not able to determine if my cylinder needs a hone or a re-plate job. Bike is 2022 Beta 200RR Race Edition. Doing a top end while I have the engine out for a new starter & bendix. Bike was starting and running fine, but hours were unknown on top end. No scratches in the bore. No discoloring. It is VERY smooth and almost "mirror like" shiny. Zero crosshatch that I can see with my eye's. Does it just need a re-diamond hone? Or should it be re-plated? Or can I run it with a new piston and rings? I ordered a 61.95mm A piston. And unfortunately I do not have a bore gauge. Not sure what to do.
I have another video where I show 3 different methods of measuring the bore. If your bore is smooth, measuring it will be the ultimate factor.
It would certainly be ideal to hone it with a diamond stone but someone who knows what they’re doing (should be someone at any engine machine shop) with an aluminum-oxide hone could add some cross hatch too.
You are not the only one to notice the ring difference. I have done less than 100 top ends over the years but it went from never filing rings to always the last few years.
And this is on older Japanese 2 strokes.
i just got my cylinder nikasil, done and a fresh piston not even broken in driven it around my yard, a few times done the ring gap as specified by the manufacturer, and the nikasil is all grainy looking and feels and looks like a gray wet stone for sharpening knives and the piston and rings look ok in comparison it has a few scratches it shouldn't have, does anybody know what i done wrong or could it be bad Nikasil i have never had any problems in the past with the company that does it they have done this cylinder once before and a few other bikes for me, usually the Nikasil has a gold tint to it, this time it looked like brushed stainless
What was your piston clearance & ring end gap?
@@ChuckfromTrueTech ring gap 0.65mm, i can fit the top of a 0.45mm feeler gauge, between the piston and cylinder, the piston is vertex tm racing, B71.94, 22-08 32059, cylinder i could only measure with a digital caliper, i got between 71.99mm to 72.04mm
I brought it down to the chop that sent it away to be coated and they said it was water damage, but the markings are concentrated around were the rings would be active like dead on, were the rings stop TDC and BDC, and the coating on the piston is flaking of in some parts
As an automotive machine shop owner and an engine machinist I’ll say that one big detail that can be more of a challenge when building any engine is burrs. As always it’s not what you can see and solve it’s about what you can’t see that ends up hurting.
When it comes to scratched cylinders the struggle is real. Most often when customers file fit rings the smallest burr left around the ring end gap from the file process is the culprit. I’ve seen cases where a slight burr on the ring end gap ended up doing damage to the ring land in the piston preventing the ring from rotating in the bore. Of course scratches were visible in the bore. The ring land told the tale. Not to say that the ring end gap needs to be champhered more. Just cleaner with finer abrasive. Wipe the ring end gaps with a high lint cloth of some sort. This way you can see the burr snag the lint and do the work necessary to smooth it over.
Same with the cylinder champher. It should be just very slight not a grossly wide champher. Yet again burrs are the last thing you want. The process to champher that bore substrate can leave a very slight lip on both sides of the champher. If that very fine champher isn’t addressed with either a fine piece of Emory paper or even scotch brite, the fine little burr on either side will break off when you’re installing them in the bore.
I do not advocate building engines with high lint shop rags. They can do major damage in extreme cases. However using a high lint cloth to brush over these areas if you’re seeing lint build up it’s likely showing you a fine burr that you need to address. Only after you know that the burrs are not snagging lint should a final assembly wash be done.
This issue happens in the automotive world much more than in the motorcycle engine world due to the fact that the pistons are installed from the top and the piston skirts often protrude out the bottom. Cylinder champher responsibility is double.
In this case high lint rags can be useful.
I’ve seen the slightest of burrs cause more problems that anything. They’re like paper cuts. Can’t even see them but the pain can be great. These burrs I’m speaking about will be about the same. Can’t see them but if you rub your fingers over them they will leave fine cuts on your fingers. It’s those fine almost microscopic burrs that are the problem.
@@hughobrien4139 na i polished the cylinder got the gritty texture out started the engine for 10 maximum, pulled the head off and the gritty streaks are back, no scratches i think it's a bad nickel job or something
We're all passionate about this stuff, consumers and businesses. But as a consumer I need the industry to exist, and if it's not profitable then it won't exist, so I'm happy to pay a fair price for professional services.
St. Pierre Moteur in Qc is the other plating company, I've used them, seemed like a great company. They gave me a Purolator account number, so I could send my cylinder in, and they charge roughly $450 for a 300 KTM, they also offered a piston which needs to be matched to the cylinder plating. In the future I would maybe just let them sell me the piston they offered. The only downside I saw to this whole procedure is they want you to put your CC information on a sheet you fill out and send with the cylinder.
The've change their name for STP1958