I have noticed many who call themselves Christians sing the praises of Enneagrams and Richard Rohr. My church began a Spiritual Formation course where Ennegrams were a big topic. I am having to dissociate myself from that and learn more about it. Over four years ago I became shocked over the occultic New Age influence in the church.
I'd say that the origin from automatic writing is the key to whether you believe the Enneagram to be for you or not for you. Automatic writing is one form of spirit channeling.
Thanks so much for sharing this! Just a few weeks ago I was convicted to throw away my Enneagram book by Richard Rohr because of the occult connection. I am so glad I did that. It's a doorway for the enemy. It leads us away from God.
Bella, so glad you did that! Rohr denies the true Jesus, and denies other essentials such as the nature of man, the nature of God, creation, salvation, etc. You can find more info on my Facebook page Christian Answers for the New Age
I used to be crazy about personality tests, but I was always frustrated with how I could identify myself in almost every MBTI or Enneagram number. While I do think God has created each of us to be unique, I’m beginning to see just how similar people are to one another in behavior.
I beilive you misunderstood it. The esoteric knowledge is that we have all the typlogies within our heart but one or some more dominant. 9 faces of ego and 9 faces of God. Each personality we have choosen is a godly attribute we can choose to go that path or another. But this falls more naturly if we choose the path of that more dominant personality. It can show an attribute which is more present in our own essence. And show our potentiality. But we have them all within us. Enneagram speaking.
@@TheExastrologer any spiritual tradition comes from a person with experiences and visions and high states of minds and talking to god which other resonate with others not.
I can agree that people can get too attached to their number and identifying with those habits - but I would say we as humans do that already, with or without the Enneagram. "I get angry when if I don't eat, thats just the way I am". etc etc. We tell ourselves stories every day. I think that the Enneagram isn't necessary but it is a tool for GROWTH - you don't need to be trapped by your habits of your number, nor anything else.
You are right about people making excuses for poor behavior, but how does the Enneagram solve that problem? If anything it may only exacerbate it. Suddenly they think this "tool" has all their "foibles" pegged, even though they may not have even typed themselves correctly, but thanks to confirmation bias and self-verification, develop new problems or try to solve problems they don't actually have and make their lives messier than necessary. This is a reason psychologists don't use it (unless they have New Age leanings).
My church began a Spiritual Formation Sunday School class where they insisted that the Enneagram was based on the teachings of the Desert Fathers. "Antiquity" = "authority".
Excellent video! Thank you for posting this. I found this through Doreen Virtues interview with Brandon Kimber, director of American Gospel. I just wanted to let you know the link in the description is not correct. It doesn't lead to Christian answers for the new age.
Thanks, Kelley. I'm not sure what you mean by the description. You can find my Facebook page by that name or find my website with that name as well. :)
I work for the State of California and was forced to do a 2 day training on the enneagram. It was shrouded as a way for us to build soft communication skills for our job.
You could organize your fellow workers to ask for MBTI or Peterson 5-trait training instead. It's more accurate. The idea that all personalty theories are superstition is nonsense
@Butternut Squirrel wow, unreal. I left my church that I attended for 40yrs...all they do now is borderline prosperity gospel and all they seem to care for is head count of congregation. likewise, I do my readings at home and listen to few good preachers. it's like i have no home...really sad indeed btw, how are you doing Communion at home if you are doing them? God Bless!
@Butternut Squirrel Yeup, Pastor Lawson is one of my goto...as well as Bill Randles, old clips of David Wilkerson and Jacob Prasch. I'll pray for you and your family. I'll see you when the LORD returns.
I'm a new Orthodox Christian. I have some audiobooks on Audible on the enneagram and leadership. Should I return them? Also what about Wayne Dyer, he has a lot of good points but clearly teaches contrary to the scripture on many points.
@@TheExastrologer I returned the enneagram audible books and most of Dyer's stuff. I like how he quotes Emerson and other great thinkers and mentions some poems. I would say he definitely has some baseless teachings but many of his points are valid for example don't complain don't explain and no justified resentments.
There is so much occult and new age creeping into the Christian churches now. I'd recommend Doreen Virtue and Steven Bancarz to warn you against new age. They used to be popular new age gurus that converted to Christianity and you might be surprised how other new age things might have crept into your thinking and church.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 I have a website called Christian Answers for the New Age and a Facebook page by that name. I"ve been doing this full time for 21 years.
Abraham talked to God, we beilived him. Moses talked to God we beilived him. A man talked to God and made enneagram typlogies, which had its source in Sufi tradition, but we say we don´t beilive that they talk to God. "Enenagram its dangerous ".. "why?"" We don´t know, we dont want to go deep, it can be demons." You maybe never asked yourself this question. Maybe its your entity/demon in you who see demon in the Gods tools for humanity to help them. If you pray and pray, maybe you should listen and not just talk. Amen
@@andrewcramer9200 a 2000 year book which you as a logical intelligent person says, talks about Jesus was the last god talked to, when bible was not updated by a person or a prophet ? are you for real?
The actual gift of the Enneagram is, that if taught properly, it shows you who you are NOT and opens up the opportunity for you to become who you truly ARE. You truly are NOT the Enneagram type you identify with, but without awareness, you will live out the patterns of that type everyday. The Enneagram brings awareness to these patterns and the underlying fears and core beliefs of each type. This awareness helps you understand yourself and others in a whole new way. Compassion for self and others is a major result of Enneagram work. The Enneagram shows us how we have all lost connection with God and our true essence/worth, and it's goal is for us all to be connected back to God. Seems to me that is the same goal as taught in the Bible and Christianity. I can appreciate the concerns and fears expressed in the video and comments below, but unless you have truly studied and worked with the enneagram, you may be misrepresenting it and missing out on a wonderful tool for growth.
You might want to focus on the origin story of this again. Demons heal, too, and performed miracles. But their motives are evil. They seek to distract and ultimately destroy. Enneagrams are about idolizing ourselves. The source of this tool must be considered. It's part of the modern cult of self love, Satan's favorite false religion.
Thank you so much for this post. So beautifully writen. This is exactly what I was thinking when I saw the video. It is SO important to know that you are NOT your Enneagramtype, but you relate to the patterns of the type and often more types because of the complexities of the Enneagram. I often think of the Enneagram as a short cut to learn about your limiting patterns that you are unaware of. And when you identify the patterns that keep you stuck you can begin to do something different and to free yourself from your limiting beliefs.
@@mette-louisemayerhofer4887 Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He is the one who convicts us of sin ("limiting patterns?") and separation from God -- and reminds us of the incredible grace and forgiveness God extends to us. It is about the person and relationship. It is through the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross that we are connected to God. His goal is restoration of the relationship and then the "work" being done is God conforming us to the image of His son. This is amazing! As Marcia mentioned people have a proclivity to revert to things like symbols and numbers, avoiding the living God and His work -- and love.
@@auntpurl5325 did you watch the video? The Enneagram has no validity at all. The types were added later by 2 men who did spirit contact and then after that, New Age psychologists added their own stuff (not necessarily agreeing) to it. It was never a personality tool.
Wow, crazy. I always thought this was just like a psychological personality type or something. I was into this when I was also into astrology. I never found it very helpful or interesting, though. I wonder if MBTI is similar. Perhaps god doesn’t want us to categorize ourselves. What’s really the point after all, it’s like self obsession.
ragtimegals i do find mbti entertaining, but scientifically it does not have validity or reliability (both words in their technical sense). as i understand it the only valid and reliable personality test is “the big 5” that rates degree of openness, agreeableness, neuroticism... i don’t remember the other two. anyway, it never assigns people a “type,” it just shows the continuum of major personality characteristics
Me, too. Now I know that it's designed for idolotry of self. My daughter's high school classmates really got into it and I took the test for fun. I had slight misgivings, but did not follow up on them. I will never use them or encourage anyone to look at them again.
So glad you're out of those things! No personality test is very accurate and from what I know, respected psychologists do not use them or give them weight. But the Enneagram is not even based on anything to do with psychology or personality and is a total fake.
MBTI is based on the demonically-inspired theories of Carl Jung. The "cognitive functions" are based on the four elements, and so on. It is also a waste of time.
Of all I've seen, I think Florence Littauer's Personality Plus is the most helpful and Biblically based. God made us who we are, whatever our strengths and weaknesses are. The point is to use those to further the Kingdom. Yeshua did not change the personality of his disciples. Peter was still Mr Impulsive (the sanguine), but God used it get His message out. Mr Impulsive spoke up at Pentecost and 3000 were saved and immersed. Paul was a take charge person (the choleric), and God used Paul's personality to get the planted churches in order with his teachings and letters.
If we beilive something is bad, ask God if its for good use. People talk bad about richard rohr but is the few christians who are practicing non duality. Maybe that is the bridge christians never have done before or even understood in jesus teaching. Maybe we can choose the systems and other traditions to make us a better christians not more a farisee. We chistians can see our own darkness Projected out on the fariseers. And we will see that God is one and all. Amen
Rohr doesn’t practice non-duality when it comes to God’s attributes or the gospel. God is BOTH righteous/holy/just/wrathful AND loving/gracious/merciful. Rohr would make the either/or dualistic claim.
Though well thought-out and well produced, there are a lot of fear based arguments in this video. When you read about the history of the Enneagram, it goes much further back than the people mentioned in this video. There's nothing mystical about it, it's just behavioral psychology packaged in an approachable way. The point of personality tests is not to "self-identify" and "filter," it's to make you aware of your strength's, blind spots and help you grow into the person God designed you to be. "The Road Back to You" is a book that addresses a lot of this misinformation and concerns, it's a great read, and should be approached with an open and analytical mind.
There is no disputing that this is evil, one of the founders himself admitted he obtained the personality traits through demonic possession, so to sat its just another personality test is quite false, and dangerous
Hey man, you seem reasonable. I just learned About the enneagram and these Christianity videos keep popping up about them, the people in the comment always call it demonic and bad, why? They almost seem scared of it, like they don’t want you to use it... do you know why?
She didn’t. It’s propaganda. You just aren’t seeing it because you’re either a Christian and you want to believe her or you are old and don’t understand how propaganda works.
Marvin Nour Hey Marvin, I encourage you to do your own research on the subject. A lot of the arguments in these videos are based on a false premise. If you can convince Christians that anything is “of the occult” it’s a quick way to get Christians to reject things automatically. Behavioral Psychology is a Science that can be studied and observed, it’s laid out in many fashions to help convey the information. The Enneagram is one of the ways to do that.
We are not to be guided by esoteric teachings. We are to be led by the holly spirit. The ennagram it a hash tag for the soul that is not led by the holly spirit. Find a church that is rooted in the word of God and is full of the holy spirit. Your on the fence for a reason this conflict in your heart this the holy spirit letting you know the ennagram is not from God. Be led by the holy spirit. God loves you
It's horoscopes with a veneer of Christianity sprayed on, stay away from it. Sure it's a tool, but it's a tool that the Bible specifically warns us not to use.
Yep the more I’ve looked it I can’t believe it got the ok to be used , preached on. Our staff is trained by it too. It’s so sad because I really care about our church. It’s still brought up casually during sermons or the women’s groups. “Cuz I’m a - number that’s why I need to do what ever. Everyone is a number.
Hmm. A few errors: 1. From the start Gurdjieff called it "enneagram". (In search of the miraculous p.294 ff). 2. Ouspensky added nothing. He recorded accurately with no embellishments or addition. 3. Gurdjieff described his work as a form of esoteric Christianity, so it can be said to have a place.
Enneagram is the name of the shape. The way I see it, maybe I'm wrong, is most people have a dual understanding, like the Arizona Diamondbacks, we know that's a label/mascot, we don't assume there are actual snakes playing baseball. Similarly there is an enneagram shape, whatever Gurdjieff was using it for, and also an "Enneagram of personality" from Naranjo but we're using shorthand 🤷🏻♂️
@@andrewcramer9200 However, it was first introduced into "the West" by George Gurdjieff sometime around 1914/15. Naranjo was born in 1932. It was around this time that Gurdjieff articulated a deliberately vague theory of "types". This was not the enneagram's chief purpose though. Watch out for that snake bite!
@@xaviereloquin4784These are older post, but I wanted to add, in case any other person stumbles upon such videos, It is not certain how far Gurdjieff explained "types", Ouspensky recorded only fragments, as his work suggests, fragments of a forgotten truth. What we do know is that typology was first applied to the Enneagram openly by Rodney Collins, who after the death of Ouspensky, went to Mexico and set up schools there and throughout the South Americas. This was the typology of essence body types which directly could relate to what Gurdjieff mentioned in fragments about astrology. However, given the region Collins taught in and his influence at that time, no doubt this was the source of this mainstream enneagram.
I had to take the PI (Predictive Index) for a management job. Just like the enneagram, it became a crutch and pigeonhole in explaining people's personalities and behaviors. This is dangerous and occultic and serves to lead people away from Christ.
What a poor and biased response, mainly from a US perspective on a US adaption of what is used as 'tool' that was a way of seeing people and how they can change that traces back to the Desert Fathers of the Church (300 - 350 AC).
Are you arguing that a New Age thing becomes a tool that's fine to use with a veneer of Christianity and patriotism sprayed onto it? I suppose you don't have any problems with Hindu Kundalini yoga and tarot cards either, as long as there's a little Christianity drizzled onto it?
In an interview with the founder he admitted it does not lead back to the desert fathers, that was made up, he obtained the last of the enneagram through demonic possession via automatic writing
Love it, Naranjo himself says the Desert Fathers didn't use it, that was a lie he and Ichazo concocted 🤣 even if they had, the Desert Fathers held unbiblical beliefs anyway, the New Testament has how many verses warning against false teaching? It's a lot.
Thomas it’s quite simple... if you know a little Church history, do some research of what the essence of the Enneagram is (adressing the core sin in someone’s life that’s blocking how people can grow towards Christ likeness) - then there is no problem at all.
No, it isn't. There is zero record of it existing prior to Naranjo and Ichazo's drug-fueled automatic writing party 🤣 even the Gurdjieff Foundation says it isn't a "personality tool".
There’s plenty of psychological studies that back up the enneagram. I suggest you read a couple and upload your opinion after. You might be surprised or maybe not. Regardless, I don’t think you mean to be misleading.
No there aren't. jaymedenwaldt.blogspot.com/2019/01/the-enneagram-science-and-christianity.html "Unfortunately, there is very little scientific data on the enneagram so it's hard to draw definitive conclusions about it. I could only find a handful of scientific studies that examined it. None of them were in top-tier journals and their methodology was questionable." static1.squarespace.com/static/5d77a9a095914b48a1c07840/t/5dee10f95e5ce97f94f85365/1575883008258/III_Myth8_Enneagram.pdf "Not a single validation study can be found in the entire database of the American Psychological Association (APA) to date, apart from the article by Newgent et al. (2004). Like almost any (pseudo or bona fide) personality measure, the authors desperately try to cross-validate the RHETI to the NEO-PI-R, the most well-known measure for the 5FM of personality. Although they admit that “limited empirical evidence, however, exists to support the reliability and validity of the scores on the RHETI” (p. 227), they don’t set out to investigate its reliability and validity. No, as it seems, they only had the intention of testing convergent validity with the NEO-PI-R. They cite the excellent internal consistency reliability scores from the NEO-PI-R (ranging from 0.86 to 0.95) and report problematic scores from the RHETI, ranging from 0.56 (2 types-this is unacceptably low and points to complete unreliability) to 0.66 (one type), with some reaching the 0.80 level. They fail to consider this problematic, however." And: "It is possible to construct adequate measures by using five or six items in a five-point Likert scale (e.g. Hinkin, 1995), but this depends on aspects such as the construct or content validity of the items. Since the HPEI doesn’t specify the items used, it isn’t possible to assess whether this is a true reliability or an artificially high one. One could easily write 5 or 6 items per scale that show high resemblance, and thus obtain artificially high internal consistency reliability scores (Cronbach’s alpha)." Bottom line: any study that claims to "back up" the enneagram has already been looked at, and found to be superficial at best, quite possibly sponsored by the Enneagram Institute itself to make more money on it, who knows.
@@andrewcramer9200 Will you explain which specific part doesn't have psychological studies that back it up? I'm looking for specifics. Most of the enneagram is general knowledge in psychological fields. For instance, an 8 is just someone who has defense mechanisms for anxiety. Defense mechanisms of course, date all the way back to Freud. Not saying he's relevant in any way lol. Just saying he's a marker for how far back this goes lol
@@andrewcramer9200 I think you should simply do your own research, rather than follow others. Think of an enneagram 1, a perfectionist. There are plenty of psychological studies on perfectionism and why and how their minds are formed and why they do what they do.
@@Irene77545 I dont disagree with that, but that does not prove that Enneagram is evil or wrong and it actually can implement with the bible. Today's bible is selectively chosen and groups them together by human.
@@user-bn7bv2zv2n static1.squarespace.com/static/5d77a9a095914b48a1c07840/t/5dee10f95e5ce97f94f85365/1575883008258/III_Myth8_Enneagram.pdf Here, proof the Enneagram is a bad theory, which we can call "fake" if we like. From page 10 of the PDF: "Steven Pinker explains why the idea that we are born as a Blank Slate is entirely wrong. Based on his view of innate human nature and personality development, the idea that humans have an innate scheme of 9 enneagram types and that we would pick our personality type around the age of four is impossible. Because of the occult and obviously esoteric nature of the enneagram, it is of no surprise that my Champions League hasn’t wasted their precious time and money on studying it, a clear indication they don’t take it seriously in the slightest. This means we’ll have to refer to experts in the field of personality differences." And the guy writing this book isn't even a Christian. "occult and obviously esoteric nature". Occult = evil. Good night.
@@andrewcramer9200 I just finish reading the whole article. It doesn't seems only oppose to Enneagram but all occult Yoga, Buddhism, Confucian, Chinese Taoist ...LOL! I don't deny its point of views and scientific evidences, but I also don't deny 'occult' means fake. I think science and occult system can coexist. Good read, thanks for sharing.
This is just condescending. People don’t just change their identity or how they see themselves based on a description meant for many people. Those seeking to improve themselves and grow are not all automatons that yearn to entirely identify with or conform to categories. People are more complex than that and generally tend to understand what nuance is. If the enneagram is dangerous, how so? Everyone has a lens through which they see and experience life. Christianity is a lens. And just because you once considered yourself to be new age doesn’t mean you understand astrology very well or how everyone else applies it, that’s just totally narcissistic. Making blanket ad hominem arguments really only weaken your own credibility by showing your lack of insight into the human condition.
No evidence of that beyond there being 9 deities to my knowledge, but that is not the same thing as a "personality test" with arbitrary wings and false labels of "your sin", and sounds more like reading into something that isn't there. Don Veinot exposed this when someone claimed the Enneagram is in The Odyssey because Odysseus visited 9 islands! Except he visited 14. This is similar to people who think Microsoft did 9/11 because in Wingdings font, if you type Q33NY you get "the twin towers, an airplane, a skull and the star of David!" Doesn't matter that 3 is a piece of paper, and Q33 is meaningless and was not a flight number as people claimed. You can read anything into anything if you wanna. There were 9 planets in the solar system, oOoOoh proof that the Enneagram is real! Oh wait, sorry Pluto. I guess Peacekeepers are cut out of our personality test too.
@@andrewcramer9200 my teacher can tell your enneagram just by looking at you. I’ve seen it. Care to explain that naive westerner? It’s always the ignorant ones like you who talk the most.
When my fellow Christians say things like, "This is really dangerous," my immediate response is to ask what can happen. This video feels like fear-mongering. The Holy Spirit does not have a spirit of fear. As I watch Marcia Montenegro's videos and read various articles she speaks in, it seems to me that because she used to be an astrologer -- with 2 years of training and 8 years on the job -- she is somehow viewed as an expert on all things not considered white evangelical Christian. What makes her an expert on the enneagram? - is it because she used to tell fortunes?! I've been blessed by all I've learned about the enneagram over the past 5 years or so. It has been a valuable tool in my family's life. I also do yoga and pray to Jesus while I do so. Both of these tools have blessed my spiritual, physical and emotional health in significant ways. I am not such a fearful or immature Christian that I cannot gleen good things from any source. The truth is that the origin of the enneagram is not known. There is evidence of Christian origins, as well as a couple of other not-Christian sources. If your heart-posture is grounded in Jesus Christ, and you choose to use this tool to walk more fully in the identity He has for you, then pray for His leading and follow that, as I have.
Sweet T , there is no mention of Trivial Pursuit, but I play it with my family. I believe Our Heavenly Father has given us many things for entertainment, knowledge and improvement. The Bible does not mention most of these things specifically. He created people who like their Father, are creative. I will not spend my life in fear, because He tells us not to. I will trust that as I spend time with Him, He will (in love) reveal things I should avoid. Again, fear mongering is not from Our Father, and it certainly doesn’t help others want to be part of His family.
So you claim to be a Christian and then Christianity we are to serve one God yet you also practice yoga which is new age in a different religion than Christianity. there are so many scriptures in the Bible of God warning us not to do certain things because it is very bad. What will happen to your life when you do these things you ask? You can go to hell and be led astray from the true word of God. In the Bible we are to serve the true king and our one Lord, heeding his wisdom when he tells us to stay away for something because it is for our good and that is the reason. this eneagram is not true Christianity and you cannot practice multiple religions and nourishing your soul with tools that do not come from God but of this world, and think you are going to heaven. There is only one God and one way and new age is not Jesus. With love I say you are greatly confused, thinking you can please Jesus and also be involved in these things. Buddhism, Hinduism, new age is not Jesus and it will not give you eternal life.
A warning is not the same as "fear-mongering" I'm not afraid of cocaine or marihuana, but I know if I consume drugs, I'm putting my self in danger. You are confident on your practices, but I'd like to ask: how much time (per dey or per week) do you spend doing yoga and how much time do you spend reading the word of God?? Have you ever asked God if He is ok with that?? I'm absolutely confident that if you really read the Bible (The whole Bible) a couple of times, asking the Lord to show you His will, then He will give you the answer...
I do not think the speaker knows anything about the enneagram. If Ichazo and Naranjo were inspired in some way, does that make it evil or something to be feared? People should make up their own minds and feel the inspiration in their hearts and spirit (where one connects to God). The Christian faith needs to be a living faith - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. (John 7:38)
Yes, they used occult practices therefore it is evil. Why is that difficult to understand? Fear? Maybe not, more like point and laugh at how stupid it is as a theory.
@@andrewcramer9200 Hi there. Well the word occult comes from a Latin term meaning hidden knowledge. In a sense the teaching and way of Jesus is hidden knowledge as Jesus says that the teaching is for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Any case I have read Naranjo and his language is standard since, as a professional psychologist, he was using that language is descriptions in psychological language and did not refer to any paranormal phenomena (the common use of the word occult). Ichazo is much more experiential and does refer to divinity but in a very logical fashion. So that is why I critiqued the speaker who seemed to be speaking from prejudice and not from any knowledge of the material. He is right to point out that Christians using these methods have no knowledge of their origins but he is showing himself in that same light.
I have noticed many who call themselves Christians sing the praises of Enneagrams and Richard Rohr. My church began a Spiritual Formation course where Ennegrams were a big topic. I am having to dissociate myself from that and learn more about it. Over four years ago I became shocked over the occultic New Age influence in the church.
I'd say that the origin from automatic writing is the key to whether you believe the Enneagram to be for you or not for you. Automatic writing is one form of spirit channeling.
Thanks so much for sharing this! Just a few weeks ago I was convicted to throw away my Enneagram book by Richard Rohr because of the occult connection. I am so glad I did that. It's a doorway for the enemy. It leads us away from God.
Bella, so glad you did that! Rohr denies the true Jesus, and denies other essentials such as the nature of man, the nature of God, creation, salvation, etc. You can find more info on my Facebook page Christian Answers for the New Age
Thank you for this!
Thank you for this.
God help us.
I used to be crazy about personality tests, but I was always frustrated with how I could identify myself in almost every MBTI or Enneagram number. While I do think God has created each of us to be unique, I’m beginning to see just how similar people are to one another in behavior.
And the Enneagram has no validity at all anyway.
You thwarted the Barnum Effect.
I beilive you misunderstood it. The esoteric knowledge is that we have all the typlogies within our heart but one or some more dominant. 9 faces of ego and 9 faces of God. Each personality we have choosen is a godly attribute we can choose to go that path or another. But this falls more naturly if we choose the path of that more dominant personality.
It can show an attribute which is more present in our own essence.
And show our potentiality.
But we have them all within us. Enneagram speaking.
@@TheExastrologer any spiritual tradition comes from a person with experiences and visions and high states of minds and talking to god which other resonate with others not.
Thanks Marcia!
I was concerned initially about our church teaching this stuff. Now I'm alarmed.
Thank you, i love you. I needed to hear this.
It's called the Barnum effect
I can agree that people can get too attached to their number and identifying with those habits - but I would say we as humans do that already, with or without the Enneagram. "I get angry when if I don't eat, thats just the way I am". etc etc. We tell ourselves stories every day. I think that the Enneagram isn't necessary but it is a tool for GROWTH - you don't need to be trapped by your habits of your number, nor anything else.
Then why go there?
But the Enneagram has no validity.
You are right about people making excuses for poor behavior, but how does the Enneagram solve that problem? If anything it may only exacerbate it. Suddenly they think this "tool" has all their "foibles" pegged, even though they may not have even typed themselves correctly, but thanks to confirmation bias and self-verification, develop new problems or try to solve problems they don't actually have and make their lives messier than necessary. This is a reason psychologists don't use it (unless they have New Age leanings).
It’s demonic
My church began a Spiritual Formation Sunday School class where they insisted that the Enneagram was based on the teachings of the Desert Fathers. "Antiquity" = "authority".
Excellent video! Thank you for posting this. I found this through Doreen Virtues interview with Brandon Kimber, director of American Gospel. I just wanted to let you know the link in the description is not correct. It doesn't lead to Christian answers for the new age.
Small world . Me too . I'm a Christian guy . Hadn't heard of it prior though lol 😇
Thanks, Kelley. I'm not sure what you mean by the description. You can find my Facebook page by that name or find my website with that name as well. :)
Thank you for this compact description. It saddens me that most reactions downplay the fact that it's astrology in essence. Keep up the good fight.
I work for the State of California and was forced to do a 2 day training on the enneagram. It was shrouded as a way for us to build soft communication skills for our job.
You could organize your fellow workers to ask for MBTI or Peterson 5-trait training instead. It's more accurate. The idea that all personalty theories are superstition is nonsense
Too bad you had to take that!
@@susampson278 The Enneagram is not a valid personality test. It's a big fat fake, that's what kills me as I see it spread everywhere.
@@TheExastrologer I'm not promoting Ennea. I'm promoting MBTI or the 5-trait inventory promoted by Jordan Peterson.
@@susampson278 MBTI is also demonic. Ben at intjs.org did a video on that. It is not scientific.
Epic!
how??? how does this get into the church???
@Butternut Squirrel wow, unreal. I left my church that I attended for 40yrs...all they do now is borderline prosperity gospel and all they seem to care for is head count of congregation.
likewise, I do my readings at home and listen to few good preachers. it's like i have no home...really sad indeed
btw, how are you doing Communion at home if you are doing them?
God Bless!
@Butternut Squirrel Yeup, Pastor Lawson is one of my goto...as well as Bill Randles, old clips of David Wilkerson and Jacob Prasch.
I'll pray for you and your family. I'll see you when the LORD returns.
I'm a new Orthodox Christian. I have some audiobooks on Audible on the enneagram and leadership. Should I return them? Also what about Wayne Dyer, he has a lot of good points but clearly teaches contrary to the scripture on many points.
Hi, Azzuro, just saw this. Yes, return them! The Enneagram has no validity. Also, Wayne Dyer is New Age so he has nothing to offer of real value.
@@TheExastrologer I returned the enneagram audible books and most of Dyer's stuff. I like how he quotes Emerson and other great thinkers and mentions some poems. I would say he definitely has some baseless teachings but many of his points are valid for example don't complain don't explain and no justified resentments.
There is so much occult and new age creeping into the Christian churches now. I'd recommend Doreen Virtue and Steven Bancarz to warn you against new age. They used to be popular new age gurus that converted to Christianity and you might be surprised how other new age things might have crept into your thinking and church.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 I have a website called Christian Answers for the New Age and a Facebook page by that name. I"ve been doing this full time for 21 years.
When I read Dyer call himself a shaman in one of his books, I threw away his stuff.
Abraham talked to God, we beilived him. Moses talked to God we beilived him. A man talked to God and made enneagram typlogies, which had its source in Sufi tradition, but we say we don´t beilive that they talk to God. "Enenagram its dangerous ".. "why?"" We don´t know, we dont want to go deep, it can be demons." You maybe never asked yourself this question. Maybe its your entity/demon in you who see demon in the Gods tools for humanity to help them.
If you pray and pray, maybe you should listen and not just talk.
Amen
If you watched the video, you just found out that it has no basis in any ancient Sufi tradition.
@@berean77 it does have the origin in sufi but typlogies from Narajo who had visions.
Hebrews chapter 1 says Jesus was the last time God spoke to anyone. Are you calling the Bible a liar?
@@andrewcramer9200 a 2000 year book which you as a logical intelligent person says, talks about Jesus was the last god talked to, when bible was not updated by a person or a prophet ? are you for real?
The actual gift of the Enneagram is, that if taught properly, it shows you who you are NOT and opens up the opportunity for you to become who you truly ARE. You truly are NOT the Enneagram type you identify with, but without awareness, you will live out the patterns of that type everyday. The Enneagram brings awareness to these patterns and the underlying fears and core beliefs of each type. This awareness helps you understand yourself and others in a whole new way. Compassion for self and others is a major result of Enneagram work. The Enneagram shows us how we have all lost connection with God and our true essence/worth, and it's goal is for us all to be connected back to God. Seems to me that is the same goal as taught in the Bible and Christianity. I can appreciate the concerns and fears expressed in the video and comments below, but unless you have truly studied and worked with the enneagram, you may be misrepresenting it and missing out on a wonderful tool for growth.
You might want to focus on the origin story of this again. Demons heal, too, and performed miracles. But their motives are evil. They seek to distract and ultimately destroy. Enneagrams are about idolizing ourselves. The source of this tool must be considered. It's part of the modern cult of self love, Satan's favorite false religion.
Thank you so much for this post. So beautifully writen. This is exactly what I was thinking when I saw the video. It is SO important to know that you are NOT your Enneagramtype, but you relate to the patterns of the type and often more types because of the complexities of the Enneagram. I often think of the Enneagram as a short cut to learn about your limiting patterns that you are unaware of. And when you identify the patterns that keep you stuck you can begin to do something different and to free yourself from your limiting beliefs.
@@mette-louisemayerhofer4887 Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He is the one who convicts us of sin ("limiting patterns?") and separation from God -- and reminds us of the incredible grace and forgiveness God extends to us. It is about the person and relationship. It is through the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross that we are connected to God. His goal is restoration of the relationship and then the "work" being done is God conforming us to the image of His son. This is amazing! As Marcia mentioned people have a proclivity to revert to things like symbols and numbers, avoiding the living God and His work -- and love.
@@auntpurl5325 did you watch the video? The Enneagram has no validity at all. The types were added later by 2 men who did spirit contact and then after that, New Age psychologists added their own stuff (not necessarily agreeing) to it. It was never a personality tool.
yikes. so Gods word is no longer enough?
It’s older than that actually…
Wow, crazy. I always thought this was just like a psychological personality type or something. I was into this when I was also into astrology. I never found it very helpful or interesting, though. I wonder if MBTI is similar. Perhaps god doesn’t want us to categorize ourselves. What’s really the point after all, it’s like self obsession.
ragtimegals i do find mbti entertaining, but scientifically it does not have validity or reliability (both words in their technical sense). as i understand it the only valid and reliable personality test is “the big 5” that rates degree of openness, agreeableness, neuroticism... i don’t remember the other two. anyway, it never assigns people a “type,” it just shows the continuum of major personality characteristics
Me, too. Now I know that it's designed for idolotry of self. My daughter's high school classmates really got into it and I took the test for fun. I had slight misgivings, but did not follow up on them. I will never use them or encourage anyone to look at them again.
So glad you're out of those things! No personality test is very accurate and from what I know, respected psychologists do not use them or give them weight. But the Enneagram is not even based on anything to do with psychology or personality and is a total fake.
MBTI is based on the demonically-inspired theories of Carl Jung. The "cognitive functions" are based on the four elements, and so on. It is also a waste of time.
Of all I've seen, I think Florence Littauer's Personality Plus is the most helpful and Biblically based. God made us who we are, whatever our strengths and weaknesses are. The point is to use those to further the Kingdom. Yeshua did not change the personality of his disciples. Peter was still Mr Impulsive (the sanguine), but God used it get His message out. Mr Impulsive spoke up at Pentecost and 3000 were saved and immersed. Paul was a take charge person (the choleric), and God used Paul's personality to get the planted churches in order with his teachings and letters.
If we beilive something is bad, ask God if its for good use. People talk bad about richard rohr but is the few christians who are practicing non duality. Maybe that is the bridge christians never have done before or even understood in jesus teaching.
Maybe we can choose the systems and other traditions to make us a better christians not more a farisee.
We chistians can see our own darkness Projected out on the fariseers. And we will see that God is one and all. Amen
Rohr doesn’t practice non-duality when it comes to God’s attributes or the gospel. God is BOTH righteous/holy/just/wrathful AND loving/gracious/merciful. Rohr would make the either/or dualistic claim.
Though well thought-out and well produced, there are a lot of fear based arguments in this video. When you read about the history of the Enneagram, it goes much further back than the people mentioned in this video. There's nothing mystical about it, it's just behavioral psychology packaged in an approachable way. The point of personality tests is not to "self-identify" and "filter," it's to make you aware of your strength's, blind spots and help you grow into the person God designed you to be. "The Road Back to You" is a book that addresses a lot of this misinformation and concerns, it's a great read, and should be approached with an open and analytical mind.
There is no disputing that this is evil, one of the founders himself admitted he obtained the personality traits through demonic possession, so to sat its just another personality test is quite false, and dangerous
Hey man, you seem reasonable. I just learned About the enneagram and these Christianity videos keep popping up about them, the people in the comment always call it demonic and bad, why? They almost seem scared of it, like they don’t want you to use it... do you know why?
She didn’t. It’s propaganda. You just aren’t seeing it because you’re either a Christian and you want to believe her or you are old and don’t understand how propaganda works.
Nicolle Sil Clearly you haven’t read my comment.
Marvin Nour Hey Marvin, I encourage you to do your own research on the subject. A lot of the arguments in these videos are based on a false premise. If you can convince Christians that anything is “of the occult” it’s a quick way to get Christians to reject things automatically. Behavioral Psychology is a Science that can be studied and observed, it’s laid out in many fashions to help convey the information. The Enneagram is one of the ways to do that.
Our church is on the video. I’m on the fence. They don’t teach it like this. It’s used as a tool. We have a great pastor. So it’s a tough one.
We are not to be guided by esoteric teachings. We are to be led by the holly spirit. The ennagram it a hash tag for the soul that is not led by the holly spirit. Find a church that is rooted in the word of God and is full of the holy spirit. Your on the fence for a reason this conflict in your heart this the holy spirit letting you know the ennagram is not from God. Be led by the holy spirit. God loves you
It's horoscopes with a veneer of Christianity sprayed on, stay away from it.
Sure it's a tool, but it's a tool that the Bible specifically warns us not to use.
My church hadn't heard of it until I asked our pastor, he looked into it and said "haha no thanks" basically. I was greatly relieved.
Yep the more I’ve looked it I can’t believe it got the ok to be used , preached on. Our staff is trained by it too. It’s so sad because I really care about our church. It’s still brought up casually during sermons or the women’s groups. “Cuz I’m a - number that’s why I need to do what ever. Everyone is a number.
Mangosgomexico , our church uses it as a tool. It’s helped me immensely, but I certainly don’t look to it as some weird guide.
4:18 is that Naranjo or Bob Ox. No caption
Guess so. She mentioned his name a few seconds after his pic came on screen
It's Bob Ochs, the Jesuit.
Hmm. A few errors:
1. From the start Gurdjieff called it "enneagram". (In search of the miraculous p.294 ff).
2. Ouspensky added nothing. He recorded accurately with no embellishments or addition.
3. Gurdjieff described his work as a form of esoteric Christianity, so it can be said to have a place.
Enneagram is the name of the shape. The way I see it, maybe I'm wrong, is most people have a dual understanding, like the Arizona Diamondbacks, we know that's a label/mascot, we don't assume there are actual snakes playing baseball. Similarly there is an enneagram shape, whatever Gurdjieff was using it for, and also an "Enneagram of personality" from Naranjo but we're using shorthand 🤷🏻♂️
@@andrewcramer9200 However, it was first introduced into "the West" by George Gurdjieff sometime around 1914/15. Naranjo was born in 1932. It was around this time that Gurdjieff articulated a deliberately vague theory of "types". This was not the enneagram's chief purpose though.
Watch out for that snake bite!
@@xaviereloquin4784These are older post, but I wanted to add, in case any other person stumbles upon such videos, It is not certain how far Gurdjieff explained "types", Ouspensky recorded only fragments, as his work suggests, fragments of a forgotten truth. What we do know is that typology was first applied to the Enneagram openly by Rodney Collins, who after the death of Ouspensky, went to Mexico and set up schools there and throughout the South Americas. This was the typology of essence body types which directly could relate to what Gurdjieff mentioned in fragments about astrology. However, given the region Collins taught in and his influence at that time, no doubt this was the source of this mainstream enneagram.
Its fun to say 33
I had to take the PI (Predictive Index) for a management job. Just like the enneagram, it became a crutch and pigeonhole in explaining people's personalities and behaviors. This is dangerous and occultic and serves to lead people away from Christ.
What a poor and biased response, mainly from a US perspective on a US adaption of what is used as 'tool' that was a way of seeing people and how they can change that traces back to the Desert Fathers of the Church (300 - 350 AC).
Are you arguing that a New Age thing becomes a tool that's fine to use with a veneer of Christianity and patriotism sprayed onto it?
I suppose you don't have any problems with Hindu Kundalini yoga and tarot cards either, as long as there's a little Christianity drizzled onto it?
In an interview with the founder he admitted it does not lead back to the desert fathers, that was made up, he obtained the last of the enneagram through demonic possession via automatic writing
Love it, Naranjo himself says the Desert Fathers didn't use it, that was a lie he and Ichazo concocted 🤣 even if they had, the Desert Fathers held unbiblical beliefs anyway, the New Testament has how many verses warning against false teaching? It's a lot.
Andrew Cramer you don’t have to agree.
Thomas it’s quite simple... if you know a little Church history, do some research of what the essence of the Enneagram is (adressing the core sin in someone’s life that’s blocking how people can grow towards Christ likeness) - then there is no problem at all.
No it is older.
No, it isn't. There is zero record of it existing prior to Naranjo and Ichazo's drug-fueled automatic writing party 🤣 even the Gurdjieff Foundation says it isn't a "personality tool".
There’s plenty of psychological studies that back up the enneagram. I suggest you read a couple and upload your opinion after. You might be surprised or maybe not. Regardless, I don’t think you mean to be misleading.
No there aren't.
jaymedenwaldt.blogspot.com/2019/01/the-enneagram-science-and-christianity.html
"Unfortunately, there is very little scientific data on the enneagram so it's hard to draw definitive conclusions about it. I could only find a handful of scientific studies that examined it. None of them were in top-tier journals and their methodology was questionable."
static1.squarespace.com/static/5d77a9a095914b48a1c07840/t/5dee10f95e5ce97f94f85365/1575883008258/III_Myth8_Enneagram.pdf
"Not a single validation study can be found in the entire database of the American
Psychological Association (APA) to date, apart from the article by Newgent et al. (2004). Like almost any (pseudo or bona fide) personality measure, the authors desperately try to cross-validate the RHETI to the NEO-PI-R, the most well-known measure for the 5FM of personality. Although they admit that “limited empirical evidence, however, exists to support the reliability and validity of the scores on the RHETI” (p. 227), they don’t set out to investigate its reliability and validity. No, as it seems, they only had the intention of testing convergent validity with the NEO-PI-R. They cite the excellent internal consistency reliability scores from the NEO-PI-R (ranging from 0.86 to 0.95) and report problematic scores from the RHETI, ranging from 0.56 (2 types-this is unacceptably low and points to complete unreliability) to 0.66 (one type), with some reaching the 0.80 level. They fail to consider this problematic, however."
And:
"It is possible to construct adequate
measures by using five or six items in a five-point Likert scale (e.g. Hinkin, 1995), but this depends on aspects such as the construct or content validity of the items. Since the HPEI doesn’t specify the items used, it isn’t possible to assess whether this is a true reliability or an artificially high one. One could easily write 5 or 6 items per scale that show high resemblance, and thus obtain artificially high internal consistency reliability scores (Cronbach’s alpha)."
Bottom line: any study that claims to "back up" the enneagram has already been looked at, and found to be superficial at best, quite possibly sponsored by the Enneagram Institute itself to make more money on it, who knows.
@@andrewcramer9200 Will you explain which specific part doesn't have psychological studies that back it up? I'm looking for specifics. Most of the enneagram is general knowledge in psychological fields. For instance, an 8 is just someone who has defense mechanisms for anxiety. Defense mechanisms of course, date all the way back to Freud. Not saying he's relevant in any way lol. Just saying he's a marker for how far back this goes lol
@@andrewcramer9200 I think you should simply do your own research, rather than follow others. Think of an enneagram 1, a perfectionist. There are plenty of psychological studies on perfectionism and why and how their minds are formed and why they do what they do.
@@sputnik163I did do my own research and my own observations. The Enneagram is trash.
so what are you trying to say? Enneagram is fake or evil? Why don't you suspect Jesus is homosexual and the bible is a novel?
Because the Bible is truth and Jesus lives in me!
@@Irene77545 I dont disagree with that, but that does not prove that Enneagram is evil or wrong and it actually can implement with the bible. Today's bible is selectively chosen and groups them together by human.
@@user-bn7bv2zv2n static1.squarespace.com/static/5d77a9a095914b48a1c07840/t/5dee10f95e5ce97f94f85365/1575883008258/III_Myth8_Enneagram.pdf
Here, proof the Enneagram is a bad theory, which we can call "fake" if we like. From page 10 of the PDF:
"Steven Pinker explains why the idea that we are born as a Blank Slate is entirely wrong.
Based on his view of innate human nature and personality development, the idea that humans have an innate scheme of 9 enneagram types and that we would pick our personality type around the age of four is impossible. Because of the occult and obviously esoteric nature of the enneagram, it is of no surprise that my Champions League hasn’t wasted their precious time and money on studying it, a clear indication they don’t take it seriously in the slightest. This means we’ll have to refer to experts in the field of personality differences."
And the guy writing this book isn't even a Christian. "occult and obviously esoteric nature". Occult = evil. Good night.
@@andrewcramer9200 I just finish reading the whole article. It doesn't seems only oppose to Enneagram but all occult Yoga, Buddhism, Confucian, Chinese Taoist ...LOL!
I don't deny its point of views and scientific evidences, but I also don't deny 'occult' means fake. I think science and occult system can coexist.
Good read, thanks for sharing.
This is just condescending. People don’t just change their identity or how they see themselves based on a description meant for many people. Those seeking to improve themselves and grow are not all automatons that yearn to entirely identify with or conform to categories. People are more complex than that and generally tend to understand what nuance is. If the enneagram is dangerous, how so? Everyone has a lens through which they see and experience life. Christianity is a lens. And just because you once considered yourself to be new age doesn’t mean you understand astrology very well or how everyone else applies it, that’s just totally narcissistic. Making blanket ad hominem arguments really only weaken your own credibility by showing your lack of insight into the human condition.
The Enneagram IS ancient. Ancient Egypt practiced this. Look into it.
Queenbee Dat Egypt is not a good source for spiritual wisdom...
No evidence of that beyond there being 9 deities to my knowledge, but that is not the same thing as a "personality test" with arbitrary wings and false labels of "your sin", and sounds more like reading into something that isn't there. Don Veinot exposed this when someone claimed the Enneagram is in The Odyssey because Odysseus visited 9 islands! Except he visited 14. This is similar to people who think Microsoft did 9/11 because in Wingdings font, if you type Q33NY you get "the twin towers, an airplane, a skull and the star of David!" Doesn't matter that 3 is a piece of paper, and Q33 is meaningless and was not a flight number as people claimed. You can read anything into anything if you wanna.
There were 9 planets in the solar system, oOoOoh proof that the Enneagram is real! Oh wait, sorry Pluto. I guess Peacekeepers are cut out of our personality test too.
@@andrewcramer9200 my teacher can tell your enneagram just by looking at you. I’ve seen it. Care to explain that naive westerner? It’s always the ignorant ones like you who talk the most.
When my fellow Christians say things like, "This is really dangerous," my immediate response is to ask what can happen. This video feels like fear-mongering. The Holy Spirit does not have a spirit of fear. As I watch Marcia Montenegro's videos and read various articles she speaks in, it seems to me that because she used to be an astrologer -- with 2 years of training and 8 years on the job -- she is somehow viewed as an expert on all things not considered white evangelical Christian. What makes her an expert on the enneagram? - is it because she used to tell fortunes?! I've been blessed by all I've learned about the enneagram over the past 5 years or so. It has been a valuable tool in my family's life. I also do yoga and pray to Jesus while I do so. Both of these tools have blessed my spiritual, physical and emotional health in significant ways. I am not such a fearful or immature Christian that I cannot gleen good things from any source. The truth is that the origin of the enneagram is not known. There is evidence of Christian origins, as well as a couple of other not-Christian sources. If your heart-posture is grounded in Jesus Christ, and you choose to use this tool to walk more fully in the identity He has for you, then pray for His leading and follow that, as I have.
Sweet T , there is no mention of Trivial Pursuit, but I play it with my family. I believe Our Heavenly Father has given us many things for entertainment, knowledge and improvement. The Bible does not mention most of these things specifically. He created people who like their Father, are creative. I will not spend my life in fear, because He tells us not to. I will trust that as I spend time with Him, He will (in love) reveal things I should avoid. Again, fear mongering is not from Our Father, and it certainly doesn’t help others want to be part of His family.
So you claim to be a Christian and then Christianity we are to serve one God yet you also practice yoga which is new age in a different religion than Christianity. there are so many scriptures in the Bible of God warning us not to do certain things because it is very bad. What will happen to your life when you do these things you ask? You can go to hell and be led astray from the true word of God.
In the Bible we are to serve the true king and our one Lord, heeding his wisdom when he tells us to stay away for something because it is for our good and that is the reason.
this eneagram is not true Christianity and you cannot practice multiple religions and nourishing your soul with tools that do not come from God but of this world, and think you are going to heaven. There is only one God and one way and new age is not Jesus. With love I say you are greatly confused, thinking you can please Jesus and also be involved in these things. Buddhism, Hinduism, new age is not Jesus and it will not give you eternal life.
A warning is not the same as "fear-mongering" I'm not afraid of cocaine or marihuana, but I know if I consume drugs, I'm putting my self in danger.
You are confident on your practices, but I'd like to ask: how much time (per dey or per week) do you spend doing yoga and how much time do you spend reading the word of God?? Have you ever asked God if He is ok with that??
I'm absolutely confident that if you really read the Bible (The whole Bible) a couple of times, asking the Lord to show you His will, then He will give you the answer...
Nicolle Sil I pray the same for you, sister. 🙏🏽
The question you have to ask: "why was this teaching not in the bible?" If you are a follower of Jesus.
I do not think the speaker knows anything about the enneagram. If Ichazo and Naranjo were inspired in some way, does that make it evil or something to be feared? People should make up their own minds and feel the inspiration in their hearts and spirit (where one connects to God). The Christian faith needs to be a living faith - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. (John 7:38)
Yes, they used occult practices therefore it is evil. Why is that difficult to understand? Fear? Maybe not, more like point and laugh at how stupid it is as a theory.
@@andrewcramer9200 Hi there. Well the word occult comes from a Latin term meaning hidden knowledge. In a sense the teaching and way of Jesus is hidden knowledge as Jesus says that the teaching is for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Any case I have read Naranjo and his language is standard since, as a professional psychologist, he was using that language is descriptions in psychological language and did not refer to any paranormal phenomena (the common use of the word occult). Ichazo is much more experiential and does refer to divinity but in a very logical fashion. So that is why I critiqued the speaker who seemed to be speaking from prejudice and not from any knowledge of the material. He is right to point out that Christians using these methods have no knowledge of their origins but he is showing himself in that same light.
Wrong