Strength Vs Grade - The Hardest V11 in the World!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ม.ค. 2023
- Training for climbing has become as impressive or recognized as "actual climbing" in many cases. Don't believe me? Check out some of the most viewed videos on TH-cam today. Many of the big trending videos have been about training and strength. Hangboard 2x per day, 9C test or Hoseok's Climbing Training Routine ring a bell? So when it comes to talking about climbing hard, training hard is usually synonymous and maybe the more interesting topic. Recently @EmilAbrahamsson brought out a new video/concept that married the two, what if we could just grade the training. We loved the idea but what stood out to us was the grades the public survey assigned to these feats of strength. At first glance they looked sandbagged (under graded) to say the least. So we've made a follow up video with support from Emil and take a look at what our assessment data and models show. Watch to find out!
Check out the original video here - • Can you grade a pull up?
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Very interesting, thanks for taking the time to make this video!
Thank You Emil! Great idea and it was fun to dig into the data. It would be good to see your results in one of our assessments!
@@LatticeTraining That'd be cool as heck! I saw Emil climb in the gym the other day so I got to see first hand how freakishly strong the dude is
@@LatticeTraining I'd love to see that!
@@LatticeTraining that would be awesome to see
the content machine
The disconnect comes because a lot people (especially the ones who train a lot) are physically stronger than the grades they climb.
Yup. Someone like me would definitely have skewed this a lot. Before I had ever stepped into a climbing gym I had done 42 proper strict pull-ups. This is going to be in the 99th percentile of climbers easily. And yet, my first time in a climbing gym I could not climb a v1.
@@DragonBank cap no way 42 post a video
@@DragonBank 42 is pretty extreme, I wonder if people who can do a 200% bodyweight could even do 42! are you sure that doesn't count as a V15? ;)
@@nikolaandric3200 Those military training guys do that kind of thing right? Try to do a ridiculous number in a minute... I can do 42, over about 5 sets ;)
@@OliverBatchelor Oh yes Ill take all the strength challenges counting as V scale climbs as you can give me.
I think it should also be considered that 90% of folks who submitted answers for Emil's survey can probably not do even a quarter of the feats of strengths and just gave random guesses to the grade…
This is most likely the reason for the savage sandbagging in Emil’s results.
Yeah agreed. Strange that the data was not more spread out if the majority were guessed.
I think it makes sense that you get a normal distribution, people clearly have a tendency to sandbag these grades. If I had to guess, I would say most people who answered the survey are probably V4 climbers, which I believe is the ability of the average gym climber. So you could assume those folks think that harder grades require truly incredible amounts of strength to complete.
@@LatticeTraining yeah in any population with a bias you will end up with a normal distribution. you'd need a purely random set to have it be spread out. for example, no one will think a 2x BW pullup is going to be v2, so it will have a defined peak. it would have been nice to see the actual standard dev number reported, as a sense of respondent uncertainty.
completely agree, people think that v10 is impossible after seeing v10, v11, v12 holds in the gym. little do they know quite a few v10 climbers can't consistently climb v10 in the gym
The one that got me (because it's close to my grades) was V4 for a 150% bw pullup. That's bonkers, I think a lot of the v6+ climbers in my gym can't do that
Climbing is so much more than strength. I come from a gymnastics/weighted calisthenics background and climb for fun. I can hit a 100% weighted pull up and 20s front lever but can't climb anything harder than a v5 on the tension board.
I climb v9/10 outside and on system boards, I just tested my max pull-up and I’m right at 150% bw. Climbing is so much more than just raw strength, so it’s important to take these grades lightly. According to Emil’s numbers I should only climb v4
@@KindaAmazing667 Agreed, but imo climbing grades are a combination of the required strength, technique, boldness etc. If you remove all (or 99% of) the technique/boldness etc as in the case of a weighted pullup then I think it becomes basically "what grade is this feat normal?" which is waaaay over V4.
eg, I can "cheat" up a real V4 lacking a lot of the strength to do a 150% bw pullup using great technique, but there's absolutely no cheating the pullup.
@@thenayancat8802 grades do not* include technical nor mental aspects. The issue many people have, especially with technical climbs, is until the technique is unlocked there are few means to compensate with physique with and this is usually only physically demanding in one aspect.
A positive but thin slab boulder is a good example. If this were a v5, you would need v5 finger strength, whatever this means, but unlikely anything else as you’ll not be making powerful shoulder movements or demanding but endurance or similar, but the holds will be thin enough and sparse enough that if you try to power this out you’ll get nowhere. If, however, you find beta which makes this need less finger strength than the neighboring v4… well then it isn’t a v5 but a v
@@zacharylaschober Grades do not include technique? You think that grades are meant exclusively as a measure of the strength needed...?
"Technical and mental climbs simply feel harder than they are until you’ve figured em out."
Strength-based climbs simply feel harder than they are until you've got the strength to do them...?
I love these videos breaking down the data you guys have collected through your assessments. Also wow Emil is just crazy strong :D
You nailed it at the end, you forget how hard the process was once the muscle pattern and skill have been repeated enough. I can do a front lever for almost 20 seconds, and I can do a oap, and iv practiced so much that they feel "easy", but if you ask me to really remember how hard the training process was when I could not do a oap or lever and I'm likely to get nightmares about how hard it was and how impossible it felt at the time .
Really interesting video, enjoyed this a lot - thank you. Must be fascinating to look into the data like that.
This is a fun video!
I've recently seen a improvement in my climbing while taking a break from fingerboard and pull up training and its more anecdotal evidence that climbing is a very holistic sport
I've been working on my technique and my secondary strength (rotator cuffs, wrists, tricepts, and antagonist muscles) and seeing great results
its just an example of how you can trick yourself into always training what you're good at and addressing weaknesses will yield the best improvements
This was super interesting! Great content!
I love this style, and format of video! It was very informative and I could watch it over and over again!
Thanks 😁
The final discussion of this video was great. You are indeed asking a different question from the one that Emil asked, but the caveats are revealing. In particular your comments on how hard it is to grade something once you learn it well really struck a chord with me. So many times after I red point a project I wonder if it is really the same climb that I initially tried. It always feels so easy on the send. This is because I tend to project until I have it quite dialled. Afterwards I always feel like it is a grade or more easier! I also think it is very hard for climbers to grade things far below their ability as well. I start to find it difficult to tell the difference between lower graded climbs now that I am climbing at a slightly higher level. It must be even more of a problem going up the grades!
V7 to V15 is all the same to me... impossible (just like 200% weight pull up)! I imagine that is a large part of the reason.
@@OliverBatchelor Yes. But I think it goes in both directions. I think I can only reliably grade boulders in the V3-V6 range, because that is the range from easy to very hard for me. Below that is usually just "easy", above that is usually too hard for my patience.
I dont think he meant it as "what grade can you climb if you can do a 2x bodyweight pullup" but more grading it like a boulder, as in how much work would it take to be able to do that compared to a boulder or how much do you have to train for it
those were my thoughts too
Agreed. I did say this in our conclusion, it's a different way of looking at it. Starting from scratch, it's likely easier to train for a OAP than it is to climb V10 for example. One is a much simpler journey. Still hard of course.
@@LatticeTraining regardless both videos were interesting and fun to see,excited to see the video with emil!
Emil’s grades are certainly sandbagged but if you take the perspective of single move simple boulders those are always going to be one insanely hard (for the grade) move because it’s over with and could have almost no climbing ability required.
Elite calisthenics athletes could probably do some V double digit dynos for example but also fall on V3 crimp ladders and those are the extremes that pop up in the lattice data set.
very interesting. thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the video. Always find it super interesting how crazy strong people's fingers are! I rarely think my fingers are too weak for what I'm climbing and often find if I'm not doing a boulder it's that I've just not found a position or how to use my legs right quickly enough, but it seems even on your data sets it seems I am in need of some more finger training for what I'm doing and trying (and with Emils I'm just woeful!!) motivation to increase those numbers in my next base phase. Did just check and I'm fairly strong at pull ups though and I'm aware I'm very bendy so can only assume I'm compensating there
I think the last few minutes sums it up nicely. There is a crazy selection bias on both data sets and especially on Emil's data set it's just completely sandbagged because as soon as you do something a couple of times it feels like it's easy and you were always able to do it.
It could be also thought that people that answered Emil's census have deficits in the technique that is compensated by excess strength, which is often not needed at those grades.
great video!! WTF
would love more content like this
Objective assessments are almost always more accurate over time than subjective ones. While Emil's video and survey are a good starting point and a good place to form a theory, only objective measures can quantify accuracy of that theory. To put it another way, Emil's survey is a gut feeling shared by people where your assessments are measurable and repeatable.
Super interesting! I think this is a big demonstration of our judging and planning fallacy 🤣 (most people who did the survey couldn't do most of the exercises and were just guessing, which means that they expect the exercises to be much easier to and achieve them much sooner than reality)!
Really cool analysis, on 4:02 its really interesting to see the huge spike on V6, just a lot of outliers going on up there suddenly.
or the person who can barely hang 110% of their bodyweight and climbs V13? I find both of these outliers ludicrous
One of my favourite things about climbing is we can find a way to climb really hard by compensating with many different skills/strengths.
Great discussion. I agree with the overall opinion discussed here and it overlaps with the comment I left on the original video (also great btw). I would say my one point of contention is that probably you wouldn't expect 50% of v9 boulders to be able to do a one move power v9. One move problems are always stiff in order to achieve a grade normally got by stringing multiple workable moves together. It's one move problems which we're probably comparing against. So whilst I fully agree Emil really sandbagged, the approach taken here maybe leads to slightly soft grades.
my instincts when looking at emil’s vid made me think the exercise grading corresponded to difficulty of performing that skill exclusively, rather than what the average climber who climbs a certain grade. most climbs involve a large array of strengths and techniques, so theyre graded by the totality of whats used in the send. ultimately though, grading an exercise is a kind of abstract thought experiment that doesn’t necessarily apply to climbing in the real world, but assigning climbs a grade is not really a well-defined process either
Good analysis! We had similar thoughts.
Yeah this makes a lot of the grades seem accurate. EG, if you took a beginner and had them train until they'd climb V4, and a beginner and had them train until they could do a 150% pullup, it'd probably take about the same amount of time and effort.
Great video! I would like to see a similar video with flexibility vs grade
very interesting to see the community perspective against the reality of climbing strength
I've looked through the comments and I haven't seen anyone say this yet, but I feel like another potential reason for the disconnect between suggested grades and actual climber strength is that the idea behind grading the feats of strength is treating a single move as a whole climb. A V7 climb isn't a collection of V7 moves in a row, it's a bunch of easier moves in a row that add up to a hard climb. In my experience, shorter V10s with fewer moves have harder individual moves than longer V10s with more moves-so for a single move to count as V10 it would have to be much harder than any V10 boulder
That waddle walk made me laugh. So relatable!
Dataset bias is fun! I can do a pull up with +70% (+60kg) just fine but not quite climbing around v14-ish. v7. On a good day. Maybe. 😂
I think the third explenation for why the consensus is sandbagged is really important.
The way I understand it, is that Emil asks; if an entire boulder would be 1 move, what would the grade be? whereas what you test is, what kind of strenght do you need to complete boulders that consist of a (complex) combination of several moves.
It's a bit like describing route cruxes with bouler grades; I feel like most 8a sport routes don't have cruxes harder than 7A/+, but people who can climb 8a, can probably boulder 7B+, because doing the crux in a route is not the same as your absolute max in isolation.
That being sad, I consider myself a not weak 7C boulderer, and EVERY assesment of Emil seems very sandbagged (but when looking at your data, I might need to try more harder boulders...)
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but my understanding of Emil's video was the perceived difficulty as opposed to an actual measure of how strong climbers of a certain grade are. It's still interesting to compare data about perceived effectiveness of certain exercises versus actual performance.
I always have à hard time trusting those data since I believe the selection bias will be huge. Good job addressing it !
Thanks Louis. We try to make it clear that when we view an assessment as a coach, we understand its limitations and it's just one of many tools we consider when informing a training plan.
Would love to see videos of people doing 2x body weight pull-ups, that’s world record territory
Talking about strength and endurance. Climbed with an old man in San Diego who was skinny and couldn’t do much weighted pull-ups etc (not that we did these tests) but he could grab a pinch and hold it. He also was able to run the cave routes up and down over 20 times non stop. Compared to a friend who actually did comp climbing and he was only able to run it about 6 times.
There is something to be said about when the body doesn’t build the lactic acid and cause a burn for some folks. When he ran up and down 20x times and said he was bored we figure it’s not about muscle burn it was about fatigue. Now keep in mind this was in the 90‘s and he was doing the hardest climbs in the gym so I figure it be worth mentioning. the potential of those skinny climbers that just latch on and have enough required str to hold their weight forever or even their weight on one hand is incredible!
I started 6 months ago. I can do a pull up with 55kg and I'm 64. But I climb 6c. What can I do to progress
What's a V10 climber? Someone who's done one V10 that suited them or someone who can do most V10 boulders if they project them.
Yes
I think Lattice collects their Data with the Question "What ist the grade of the hardest Boulder you did in 10 sessions or less
What ChrisZ said 😊
@@LatticeTraining I think this explains some of the difference between your results and the "consensus" (although the consensus would still be sandbaggy).
Consider someone who's climbed a single V10, and it took them 10 sessions. They would be a V10 climber in your dataset. But the boulder they did was certainly cherry-picked -- something that suits their style and is easy for the grade, and yet it still took them quite some time to climb it. It's totally expected that they wouldn't be able to do most other V10 boulders... or V10 exercises. They would likely be able to do a random V8 climb/feat that someone throws at them, but not V10.
Thank u lattice.
Do you have any benchmark of bw% on the lattice heavy roller ? Just bought one and great knowing what prosent i need to be😅
Id quite like to see some data on whether bodyweight is actually a good baseline to begin with; not suggesting it should just be absolute numbers instead of relative- but I'd be surprised if you took a 2D "climbing grade @ %bodyweight" diagram, and added height as a third dimension- id be surprised if values were flat along that axis.
Hi, could you please share your statistical results for 1 arm hang between V9 and V13? It is a very small finger strength difference if V9 has on average 91% of BW and v13 100%
An issue that isn't touched upon in this video is whether we are grading exercises based on how hard they are to achieve, or if we're looking at how strong you need to be to climb a given grade. For example, a one arm pullup may not take more than 3 months of specific training to achieve , however, for someone purely looking to improve their climbing there are many better things for them to focus their time and effort on (i.e flexibility and fingerstrength) hence why many double digit climbers still can't do a one armer.
I would be curious for the much more common test of one arm pull up (on a bar) If I had to guess for men v9 and for women v12. Curious if you have data for that since this is something many people strive for as a goal.
We don't test the one arm pull up because although a popular goal, it's not very practical to test. The high majority of people we test won't be able to do it and will need a pulley set up to test assisted one arm strength. The two arm pull up is a lot more convenient for us to assess.
It would have been interesting to compare the percentiles of people who could achieve the feat of strength versus what grade a similar percentile would climb. Maybe 5% of your data set could +100% BW Hang on a 20mm edge, so then what grade would match that 5% within your data?
Big issue in the survey is whether the grade should correlate to the actual climbing grade (meaning, is X pulls up required to do a V5 grade in average), or should be graded compared to other calisthenics / bodyweight strength training
Outdoors vs. Indoors is another consideration we're missing cause indoors you are much more likely to need a 150% pullup to do a v9 than outdoors. Training only indoors currently, I can feel my work capacity impacted a lot by my back not being at peak strength (had a shoulder injury) but I can imagine outdoors it would barely matter with the grades I climb
Yes a good point. Totally agree with this.
what hand grip position do they use in testing 2 arms max hang on 20mm?
Half 4 or Open 4. Not full crimp or open 3.
I would love to see a study of climbing team kids. How do 12 year olds stack up?
I think the disconnect comes from somewhere else. Emil tried to grade the exercises itself, and did not try to correlate the exercise with your bouldering level. So the question would be, how much/long do you have to train eg. for the one arm pull-up vs. how much training does it take to reach a level to climb a specific V9. In other words: If there was a boulder outside with only one hard move, where you would need to perform a one arm pull-up. What grade would this boulder be?
Are there any common predictors for people who are likely to be very strong or very weak for the grade?
Flexibility seems to inversely correlate with finger strength. As someone that struggles with finger strength gains and seems to pick up finger injuries i've put a lot of time into getting flexible. It helped a lot. The other big one is height. Taller climbers get away with less finger strength. But that is anatomical and not trainable unfortunately.
For me personally, I participated in Emil's survey but I only graded the exercises that I am actually able to complete. It felt completely wrong to grade something that I have never tried and have no grasp of how hard it is
you should release your data to the public
Well I can do a double bodyweight pullup and can after projecting send 7a/7a+ which probably comes from me building strength from tumbling but not having good technique since I never trained for it as I am happy with what I can currently climb.
have to add within 8 hours of drive there are only ~80 outdoor boulders for me so I am very limited as it is all the same style which does not work towards my strengths
When we see data like this our interpretation is simple. More pull-up training is very unlikely to yield improvements in climbing. It's worth seeing what other things you can focus on.
Is the finger strength test going off a 20mm edge?
Yes, we test on 18-23mm as this covers our Lattice edge and boards like the BM 1000/2000. These are the most commonly available in gyms for our remote assessments.
Great video! When I filled the survey out, I approached it from a perspective of "I expect a climber of this grade can more likely do this exercise."
It was really nice to see the data that you have on where the numbers actually tend to fall as well! I was hoping to do a training cycle with you all to see where I stack up and talk some more data, but a finger tweak is gonna push that out a bit.
The survey was meant as "I am a VX climber and I can do Y amount"
Hope your finger heals up quickly Jack!
I'm a V7/V8 climber and I cannot hold a front-lever for more than 3s! But I don't train for it at all
Oh okay.. so this means basically that if you can do a 200% pull up, there is no need to try and improve on that metric 😄👏
Emils own bias as being one of the strongest climbers in the world really shines through when he sets the feats of strengths really low in grade
Wasn’t Emils video all about the grade of the exercise, not the grade the exercise unlocks nor the grade you should be climbing if you can do the exercise? I think this was one of the issues was there was some further explanation but wasn’t definitive, and folks responded akin to how this is.
If you wandered to a boulder problem, and the problem was to hang from the starting hold for 5secs with double bodyweight… how would this be graded? Being one move… probably feel impossible for the grade like those mass of problems which say “crimp the rail, paste the feet, and huck for the lip” and if you just aren’t this exact climber with the dedication to this movement then this will never be your first of the grade.
Good analysis, simply think this was something else entirely.
This video makes me feel much better about my own abilities 😂
I didn't see Emils Video as "A Vx Climber can pull x % of bodyweight" but rather as "This excercise is as hard to achieve as a Vx Boulder in terms of time and effort you have to put in (solely strength training)".
im a v8 climber but ive hung 186%bw on 15mm. Guess I should improve my technique then 😂😂
Those exercises definitely don’t 100% correlate to a grade just fun training. As I can do 200% pull up and hang on 20mm but climb V10 max
I think on the premise of Emil's video the results he got were accurate. Yes there is an aspect of repeatedly doing something makes it feel easier, but technique is a huge aspect of climbing that doesn't feature in many of the exercises in his video. As someone else said, it takes a lot more skill to do a V16 than to do a 2x bodyweight pullup. I also think particularly on the high end your data is skewed because it's a small dataset or extrapolated data, so you can only really use the best climbers who obviously have world class technique. If I had world class technique I could climb grades a lot higher than I do currently, but to me doing a 1.5x bodyweight pullup is way easier than climbing like V10 or whatever your data suggest for that difficulty.
I have no idea how much data you guys have, but I'd be really interested to see how it compares at lower end skills like a pullup or 1.2x bodyweight pullup or the 20mm edge 1x or 1.2x bodyweight. Because people who are limited at that point are probably a lot less skilled in terms of technique, and would be a lot more in line with your average climber who's been climbing roughly once a week for a year or something. Another point along the same line is it's likely people taking your test are already competent climbers which is why they're taking it.
Good analysis. I think the skill aspect is huge in this comparison. If the same person with zero experience in strength training or climbing sets out to do a one arm pull up or a V10, for example, they might reach the one arm pull up much quicker. In many ways, a much simpler process.
We have a lot more data on the lower end and we see a bigger spread in strength too. This is because people start climbing with a big variety of sporting backgrounds. From never training to experienced calisthenics. As the grades go up, the athletes tend to specialise and outliers are less frequent. We are actually planning a video to explore this question i.e. how does the average V4 climber compare to the average V11 climber. Both in pull-up strength and finger strength.
@@LatticeTraining I look forward to the video, sounds really interesting
Sandbaggers!
Can we have the test naber of Aidan and will🧐? That would be one of the coolest things in the world obviously if they agree ahahah😂
We really want to do this. It's in the pipeline 😁
The exercises in emils video were graded as if that exercise was a boulder problem, right? Not graded based on how good of a climber the person performing the exercise is. The amount of training required to do a 200% BW pullup is way less then the amount of training required to climb a V16 boulder, hence it was graded much easier in the survey. Altough predictably, a climber who's able to do a 200% BW pullup most likely climbs boulders harder than the hypothetical "200% BW pullup boulder".
“The exercises in emils video were graded as if that exercise was a boulder problem, right? Not graded based on how good of a climber the person performing the exercise is.” Isn’t it one and the same? The big question is: What exactly is a 8C climber? How do we measure climbing ability?
It may be but the lattice video is more interesting so I'm glad Emile video helped deliver it. Doing a 200%bw pull-up isn't comparable with doing a v16 nor a v11 anyway lol
@@Mike-oz4cv No the Task were grade if that particular movement would get a climbing grade what would it be. If you translate climb to how much effort you need to put in it n total (Complete Training history), than a 200% Bodyweight Pull Up is definitely a lot faster to achieve than V16, or even V12 if you only train pull ups
Well presented info and data. Emil's data here was mainly just rubbish IMO and this video makes it pretty telling.
Certainly surprising data. Interesting nevertheless to see public perception when asked via a survey.
So the 175% pull-up being v15/16…. If I weighed 150lbs I’d add ~112lbs?
No, you add 175% so ~262lbs Edit: I was wrong, yep you add 112lbs. Wasn't really paying attention when I fast forward through this video :)
(1.75*bodyweight)-bodyweight=addedweight or 0.75*bodyweight=addedweight both are equal. :)
@@sirporkrib7643 this is the exact problem I’ve been having and sometimes they don’t elaborate fully 😂
112 sounds human, if it was 262lbs my head would be spinning
@@V8chump v15/16 gets my head equally spinning if not more. Given that many v10 climbers can do a one-arm pull-up, I actually thought +175% might be common among v15/16 climbers. I'm glab this is not the case.
@@sirporkrib7643 truth is around a one arm pull up or being able to pull +175% or more of your bw the only limitation in a general sense the person is going to have when pulling on a hold is their finger strength (yes this a broad generalization, but my point is that your lats and shoulders are not holding you back from pulling down on that tiny little irregular shaped crimp once you can pull that hard on a jug or bar)
Grades are definitely very interesting in a whole, I've been climbing for 2 years and I currently regularly send v6 and 5.12s. I'm not the best with technical movements, but I'm massively strong for my body weight. Right now I weigh 148lbs and have a 28mm half crimp pr of 220lbs
Strange I can hang and pull up with 160% but I am a v5 climber :D
Strong! 💪💪. I would suggest training these aspects further is going to quickly have diminishing returns on your climbing performance.
So I guess the conclusion is, that the people taking part in the survey heavily underperform considering their physical abilities and if they would spend more time on footwork, body positioning, coordination, tactics, mental game, route reading etc... and less time in the gym they would probably climb harder grades
Definitely one conclusion. I also think some votes are making estimates that are not very accurate, because it's beyond their personal experience. It would be good to know the average ability/max grade climbed by the survey respondents.
Me who pulls 175% and climbs a v5 or 6
Strong pull up! 💪
Provided people are climbing the grades they are climbing, it means they are capable of climbing those grades. Likewise, if someone is capable of executing those exercises, it means, with 95% confidence, that they can perform them. That, of course, if we ignore sandbagging, heliumbagging, subjectivity and leisure. Not to mention none of that applies to other species. The most famous example is that of baboons who are knowingly able to climb V16's in less than 3 sessions. That, of course, assuming they would even bother to try or could entertain the idiotic concept of a session. But I digress. Baboons are able to hangboard with 650% of *anyone's* bodyweight, while it being physically impossible for them to perform a front lever since they cannot distinguish between front and back (or laterals, for that matter).
I hope I made myself clear.
Intructions unclear. I am now half way trough the process of becoming a baboon and my speciesist gf doesn’t think my climbing is sexy anymore. Should I just crimp harder and do a front lever?
This is the "fun" part about surveys - they are kind of bullshit. As researchers, we kind of hope that whatever is asked of people - here the grades of exercises - can be faithfully represented in their answers. But that's sadly often not the case. Consider: how many people do you think actually performed the exercises instead of simply guessing? I'd say that if you have hard empirical data (as lattice does) -- even if the sample size is small -- you're infinitely closer to what the "real" situation might be than what a survey can ever deliver. I'd call this "survey fallacy" - the false belief that surveys can deliver real answers (and the entire discipline of psychology suffers from it).
Front lever is actually physiologically impossible for a certain percentage of the population. Geek Climber has a video on this.
I've spent so long following and investigating strength feats vs what grade a climber can climb. I came to the conclusion it's pretty useless tbh. People are different heights/weights/shapes and different climbs suit different body types. Think people just want to know some generic feats of strength they can achieve in the gym to achieve a certain grade i.e. they can't make it down the climbing centre or outside all the time so they have to do some gym work. People probably just better off being self critical and use some logic than trying to achieve these feats of strength.
Comparing objective measures like pulling strength to a subjective measures like V-grades is already a silly endeavor. That having been said, it seemed sorta obvious that Emil's video was less an earnest attempt to "grade" various feats of strength, but moreso an avenue for him to humblebrag about his strength through his sandbagged estimations.
Not sure we agree it's a silly endeavour. We use comparison to inform training and find it a helpful tool alongside things like movement analysis, goal setting and coach intuition. I agree the subjectivity of grades is not great but it's often the best measurement we have for performance in climbing. Certainly Emil's video was more for entertainment but we found it fascinating nevertheless.
Your dataset is biased towards climbers with technique.
If you only use strength Emile’s guesses might be closer. 😉
Emil’s grades are more accurate for me
Not to mention how subjective grades are to begin with
Yah... Emils video was completely sandbagged. He is completely detached from reality. I hope this video brings him back to earth
This video talks about what strength climbers who climb certain grades have vs emils where "one move boulders" are graded. One move of making weighted pull up is something different from boulder where multiple similarly physically demanding moves are combined.
I mean, not really. We all have our subjective experience with grades, for example, i could do one arm pull up at the time when i was climbing around V4 because of pulling strength training background, therefore for me grading something requiring a lot of pulling strength on jugs V4 is natural, but at the same time i was barely able to hang on 20 mm edge with 2 hands, so routes with small edges are forever graded in my brain with much higher grade. Grading pull up with 200% of bodyweight V12 and not higher is reasonable at least because of vast amount of people that can do it without any climbing experience, doesnt mean that any V12 climber can do them - thats not what grades are supposed to represent
@@user-sc9ud8wh3t I could also do a one arm pull up while climbing V4-V5. Still, I could see what other people were doing around me and that I didnt need the pulling strength I had, because my fingers were weak.
I think Emil is just extremely strong and underestimates his own strength. Most of the people participating in the survey are probably much weaker and can’t estimate the difficulty of the exercise accurately. They probably also use Emil as a benchmark. We’ve seen him repeatedly do one arm pull-ups, so how hard can it be?
Seems way too soft😅 I was able to do one armers on 20mm edge after just 4 months of climbing... And I was only climbing around 7B
We do see this sometimes. But it's not common to see this level of strength develop that quickly, you are a high responder to strength gains! Some spend many years trying to achieve this. Conversely some people have natural very strong fingers. Tom Randall once showed a builder (having had some home renovation done) his hangboard. He could one arm hand the 20mm edge never having climbed before.
You have 1 in 1000 finger strength if you were holding the 20mm edge one-armed after only 4 months of climbing.
Might be. I got to the same level as womens national gold medalist in less than a year, and did my first v11's in less than a year aswell.
@@MarkusSojakka yeah, v11 in under a year is certainly not normal. You probably have the lifetime potential of climbing v14+ seeing such amazing progression in just one year.
@@LatticeTraining this builder anecdote makes me want to cry lol
One of the best videos in long time. I especially appreciate that you differentiate between benchmarks for men / women. This video persuaded me to buy training plan for the next training period! 🤌💪
Thanks 😊