There's actually a rapper named "Justin Martyr" on youtube who probably thought of this and then thought "nah, that would really be jumping the shark."
Justin Martyr is a fascinating Church Father. Augustine also entertained the idea of Plato having access to the Old Testament. But he discards that theory, based on his evidence.
Had a discussion with a liberal systematic theologian and Bultman scholar who basically Justin Martyr was the precursors to liberal theology. As friendly as Justin was to Greek philosophy at the end of the day he seems like a very devout Christian who would condemn much modern liberal theology
There is nothing "liberal" about Justin Martyr besides maybe an apparent inclusivism to right-living, right-reasoning Gentiles who lived prior to Christ. Justin had rigorist perfectionist morals, taught eternal damnation of the wicked, etc.
@@IAmisMaster I never said it made sense. He also called Irenaeus a fascist so that should be a pretty good indicator of how this guy thinks (or doesn’t think)
@@bradleymarshall5489 fyi I think you'd really enjoy Joshua Sijuwade's new discussion with Steven Nemes on solving the incarnation. I agree with Sijuwade even though I think it's going to get trashed as a pre-Athanasian view of Christ's incarnation. Speaking of Irenaeus, I think Irenaeus would agree with Sijuwade given his comments on Christ's incarnational lack of omniscience in AH Book 2 chapter 28.
If the idea that granting to the pagans a shimmer of the true light of wisdom preserved in spite of the fall makes one a liberal Christian, then I guess most of the Christian tradition is liberal.
Thanks for the video, very nice presentation. "Theory of forms" was actually referred to as the ιδεα by Socrates. Having the right ideas about God is important! If you take Timaeus' account literally in Plato's work, Solon learned about Atlantis and the doctrine of one God from the Egyptian priests. Joseph in Genesis became an Egyptian governor and married the priest's daughter at Heliopolis, so there could have been Hebraic influence from Egypt or from Pythagoras who might have learned from the Chaldeans.
What essential advantage would Justin Martyr say Christianity has over Platonism? Is it that Christianity offers rituals for Divine communion, whereas Platonism is more of a "head religion"? Or was it that he thought it had a more "universal"/synthesizing appeal, insofar as it was better able to unite the diverse religious beliefs/practices throughput the empire?
@@WayneDrake-uk1gg I think you are correct. It is said that when Pythagoras became acquainted with the philosophical mysteries he also became more zealous in the observance of ritual. It is a flaw in Platonism that it lacks both congregation and ritual while still imposing a strict moral code. Everyone who has experienced religion in community with others knows that it functions better than a purely private faith
@@Catholic-Perennialist yes, I was thinking congregation was essential. I mean, with Platonism or Pythagoreanism, you're basically just in--for lack of a better term--"an elitist band of fellow eggheads", whereas Christianity integrates you with all walks of life
@@Catholic-Perennialist not that I've got anything against Plato by any means. The ability to figure out pure true religion basically from scratch is impressive on the order of miraculous. But if he could only serve as a priest to the five other smartest people on the planet, we must admit his vocation was somewhat limited
Justin didn’t believe Greek Myth merely precipitated Christianity. He believed Greek Myth and all other Myths were constructed by demons to detract and point one AWAY from Christianity. That is a HUGE difference than what is presented here.
If Jesus existed in history he IS the Messiah. Most historians and atheists agree he did live. Then you only have to ask yourself. Do the documents back up the faith? They do. There are more copies of holy writ than anything else ever written. A well preserved history agreeing with scripture. But in the end it always takes faith. I believe Jesus really lived and fulfilled the prophecy as the Son of God. And Jesus created a lifestyle that sought truth, mercy, and love, without which Western civilization could not have flourished. A lifestyle that is good and holy to follow.
Justin and every early church saint before Augustine, without exception, prove that subordinationism was the original Trinitarian/Christological position. Of course we could know that just by believing Jesus when He says "the Father is greater than I" and the Apostle Paul when he plainly says in 1 Corinthians that the Father is Christ's head and that Christ will subject Himself to the Father at the end of all things.
What to think of the fact that most of the middle eastern christians converted to Islam (the Saudi Arabian royal family are from Christian descent) even the European today tend to abandon Christianity. How should we interpret the loss of these Christian values? Should we blame the church? The Copts were once the majority in Egypt
his idea that we can find a footprints of logos in pre christian philosophies is great
I should also wear some philosopher robe. I will call it the Justin Martyr drip.
Let's make this a trend.
There's actually a rapper named "Justin Martyr" on youtube who probably thought of this and then thought "nah, that would really be jumping the shark."
Enjoying this series!
Justin Martyr is a fascinating Church Father. Augustine also entertained the idea of Plato having access to the Old Testament. But he discards that theory, based on his evidence.
Philo of Alexandria argued it too
Some scholars today even hold the view, such as Margaret Barker. Personally I am inclined towards Plato knowing Moses.
Nice. He’s probably my favorite early church father
Thanks Pastor! More videos on Church Fathers, please.
Had a discussion with a liberal systematic theologian and Bultman scholar who basically Justin Martyr was the precursors to liberal theology. As friendly as Justin was to Greek philosophy at the end of the day he seems like a very devout Christian who would condemn much modern liberal theology
There is nothing "liberal" about Justin Martyr besides maybe an apparent inclusivism to right-living, right-reasoning Gentiles who lived prior to Christ. Justin had rigorist perfectionist morals, taught eternal damnation of the wicked, etc.
@@IAmisMaster I never said it made sense. He also called Irenaeus a fascist so that should be a pretty good indicator of how this guy thinks (or doesn’t think)
@@bradleymarshall5489 lol
@@bradleymarshall5489 fyi I think you'd really enjoy Joshua Sijuwade's new discussion with Steven Nemes on solving the incarnation. I agree with Sijuwade even though I think it's going to get trashed as a pre-Athanasian view of Christ's incarnation. Speaking of Irenaeus, I think Irenaeus would agree with Sijuwade given his comments on Christ's incarnational lack of omniscience in AH Book 2 chapter 28.
If the idea that granting to the pagans a shimmer of the true light of wisdom preserved in spite of the fall makes one a liberal Christian, then I guess most of the Christian tradition is liberal.
Great info.
Thank you Dr Jordan B Copper ❤❤God Blessed you❤❤
I'm surprised that you didn't include his second apology along with his other two major works.
Dr Cooper, what is your view on the possibility of 1st Apology Ch 67 being plagiarized?
Thanks for the video, very nice presentation.
"Theory of forms" was actually referred to as the ιδεα by Socrates. Having the right ideas about God is important!
If you take Timaeus' account literally in Plato's work, Solon learned about Atlantis and the doctrine of one God from the Egyptian priests. Joseph in Genesis became an Egyptian governor and married the priest's daughter at Heliopolis, so there could have been Hebraic influence from Egypt or from Pythagoras who might have learned from the Chaldeans.
What essential advantage would Justin Martyr say Christianity has over Platonism? Is it that Christianity offers rituals for Divine communion, whereas Platonism is more of a "head religion"? Or was it that he thought it had a more "universal"/synthesizing appeal, insofar as it was better able to unite the diverse religious beliefs/practices throughput the empire?
@@WayneDrake-uk1gg I think you are correct. It is said that when Pythagoras became acquainted with the philosophical mysteries he also became more zealous in the observance of ritual.
It is a flaw in Platonism that it lacks both congregation and ritual while still imposing a strict moral code.
Everyone who has experienced religion in community with others knows that it functions better than a purely private faith
@@Catholic-Perennialist yes, I was thinking congregation was essential. I mean, with Platonism or Pythagoreanism, you're basically just in--for lack of a better term--"an elitist band of fellow eggheads", whereas Christianity integrates you with all walks of life
@@WayneDrake-uk1gg Yes. ChrIstianity allows the egg heads to touch grass more easily.
@@Catholic-Perennialist not that I've got anything against Plato by any means. The ability to figure out pure true religion basically from scratch is impressive on the order of miraculous. But if he could only serve as a priest to the five other smartest people on the planet, we must admit his vocation was somewhat limited
Any suggestions on a good book on the Logos, pre-Christian and early church?
@@lexnaturae6638 Philo wrote of the Logos. You should start there.
Justin didn’t believe Greek Myth merely precipitated Christianity. He believed Greek Myth and all other Myths were constructed by demons to detract and point one AWAY from Christianity. That is a HUGE difference than what is presented here.
If Jesus existed in history he IS the Messiah. Most historians and atheists agree he did live. Then you only have to ask yourself. Do the documents back up the faith? They do. There are more copies of holy writ than anything else ever written. A well preserved history agreeing with scripture. But in the end it always takes faith. I believe Jesus really lived and fulfilled the prophecy as the Son of God. And Jesus created a lifestyle that sought truth, mercy, and love, without which Western civilization could not have flourished. A lifestyle that is good and holy to follow.
Isn't GOD'S Word, GOD'S Word...
Justin Martyr is proof that subordinationists can go to heaven.
Justin and every early church saint before Augustine, without exception, prove that subordinationism was the original Trinitarian/Christological position. Of course we could know that just by believing Jesus when He says "the Father is greater than I" and the Apostle Paul when he plainly says in 1 Corinthians that the Father is Christ's head and that Christ will subject Himself to the Father at the end of all things.
@@IAmisMaster Much agreed. Honest researchers have a hard time taking orthodoxy too seriously.
@@Catholic-PerennialistOrthodox Christians believe in the Monarchy of the Father. Or at least they should.
Orthodox Christians believe in the Monarchy of the Father. Or at least they should.
I don't know if my previous comment was deleted?
@@vasymusic2556 You should learn the difference between orthodoxy and Eastern Orthodoxy.
He was satan himself who destroyed Saturday worship sabbath day Saturday
What to think of the fact that most of the middle eastern christians converted to Islam (the Saudi Arabian royal family are from Christian descent) even the European today tend to abandon Christianity. How should we interpret the loss of these Christian values? Should we blame the church? The Copts were once the majority in Egypt
The Scripture foretold there would be a great apostasy in the end times.