Sorry, if you look at the rules for Audience it pretty much says that an Audience is a group of players, and anything that targets an Audience will happen to each player that is appart of that Audience in a similar way an "each player" effect does. These effects are like that on a overloaded Cyclonic Rift or an Earthquake, but for a specific group of players. So even if some players in that Audience have protection or hexproof, it will still manages to affect all the players in that Audience and things still happen (one exception for players who have protection from the specific type of source and if the effect is dealing damage).
@@Sauvenil yes and no. There isn't any damage distribution, if a creature has the ability to attack an audience, and isn't blocked by one of the players in the audience, it does damage to each player in that audience equal to its power.
[Mind-Skinner] Goblin {U}{U}{R} Legendary Enchantment Creature - Goblin Horror 2/2 When [_-_] Goblin enters, roll a d20. 1-4: Put a cursed role sticker on it. 5-7: Each opponent may conjure a banned or restricted card they own outside the game or in their collection into their library, then seeks a banned or restricted card. 8-10: Put a 10/1 sticker on [CARDNAME] 11-13: You become the monarch, then you take the initiative, then you reveal the top card of your scheme deck and set that scheme in motion. Roll the Planar die. 14-16: Add six {R}. 17-19: Choose target nonland card an opponent owns on the battlefield or in a revealed zone not in that player's hand. Put a Restricted sticker on it. 20: Name a nonland card. Search one or more among target opponent's graveyard, hand, library, sideboard, trade binder, collection, and pockets for any number of copies of that card. Put a Banned sticker on each of them. If a player's library was searched this way, that player shuffles.
Strategic implications of being able to apply the furnace of rath before the mindskinner: If your deck benefits from having cards in the graveyard, obviously, but also if you're in a multiplayer game, Mindskinner mills each opponent, so in a format with multiple opponents, this could allow you to potentially mill a mutual opponent earlier, banking on being able to then take out the Mindskinner player after your mutual opponent is out of the game
One neat caveat is that each player in a multiplayer game can choose whether they mill 10 or 20 cards separately, so people with "graveyard matters" can choose to dig deeper while the others take the normal effect.
3:18 Amy can't attack with the mindskinner and then play insult because insult is a sorcery and can't be played after attackers are declared and before damage.
If Nick's commander is in his library, and it happens to be the top card, do players necessarily know? If Amy manifests it as a face-down 2/2, when does she have to let players know it's a commander? Can she wait until after dealing combat damage?
Your commander is always the same commander, even if it is in your deck, hand, or face down on the board. Being a commander isn't a characteristic that goes away when face down. 903.3 is very clear about this, it is a commander. But I'm not aware of any rule that says that just because a designation is on a card in a hidden zone, means that that card is kept distinct and it's characteristics are known. 903.3e says that "your commander" effects can "find" and "see" the commander even in hidden zones, but unless the effect says otherwise, I think the commander stays hidden and only it's oracle text and any effects applied to it are used instead. I don't think that Amy would say "this is commander damage" when the face down commander does damage, but she should keep her face down creatures distinct from each other as normal, and if a commander is potentially face down, she should keep track of damage dealt to players by each. I would assume that state based actions can't confirm that the damage is commander damage until the commander changes zones (and is thus revealed), is turned face up, or is otherwise revealed. This is rather uncomfortable, I feel there should be clear rules/rulings for this because there are legendary creatures with Disguise and Megamorph etc.
I've looked over these rules before and basically remembered "sooooo...prevention is the same as replacement effects, with the exception that 'can't be prevented' applies to only them." Haven't looked at tricky interactions though, cool examples! I still wonder if they couldn't have just merged those 2 sections of the rules, but I guess if that means you don't need to read the phrase "prevention or replacement effect" rather than "replacement effect" every single dang time while you're reading a rule, it's worth it haha.
Wait. The player taking the damage gets to decide how much damage??? I had no idea. Cool that Nick gets to pick how much to mill. And extra cool that the combo still deals 20 damage whichever way you slice it!
Yep, this also was something I learned when playing Torbran with other damage modifiers. I always want to add his 2 and then double it, but the affected player gets to choose and will usually double before adding 2 to save not taking needless damage. It is up to them to order the replacements though, so there may be a niche time where taking the extra damage is a good thing.
@@johnbuscher7119 I once saw a "buff strategy" deck (makes ALL its creatures big) go up against a red burn damage multiplier deck and use the replacement rules to excellent effect. I don't recall the exact creature, but the green/white player had played a (base 1/1) creature and later wanted rid of its continuous ability and had no sac outlet. The burn player cast a Blasphemous Act that they assumed was going to do 54 damage to each creature ([13*2*2]+2)... the buff player cast two instants to give a big creature with Dragon Throne of Tarkir on it some extra buffs before using the Throne's ability, boosting all his creatures to a total of +55/+55 so enough to survive the Act.... except. For specifically the one he wanted rid of, he chose to do the math as ([13+2]*2*2) so it took 60 and died.
The player, or controller of the permanent, that is affected by an event gets to decide the order that replacement effects apply to said event. In this case, the player would be the one being dealt damage so they decide. Each player gets to control the damage assignment by their creatures, but effects that increase or prevent damage take place when damage is dealt rather than when it is assigned. Because of this, it also means that you can ignore protection when calculating trample damage (a 4/4 trample blocked by a 2/2 with protection from it will trample over for 2 even though it won't end up actually dealing damage to the 2/2), and you apply damage doublers after you calculate trample as well (if a 4/4 trample was blocked by a 2/2 while the attacker controls a City on Fire, it deals 6 damage to the 2/2 and the player because it assigned 2 to both then was tripled.)
Politely requesting Naru Meha + Starfall Convocation. What happens after you mill out one opponent? The gift is still promised, you can't change the chosen opponent, but the opponent is now invalid. Yes you can reanimate something else, but what if naru meha is the only creature in your graveyard?
Promising an opponent a gift is an additional cost. You can only make a promise while casting a gift spell. The choice made for that cost is a copiable value though, so any copies of the spell will remember they had promised a gift to the same player. The text of gift cards doesn't say "if a gift was given", it says "if a gift was promised". Because of that, if you promised a gift to a living player who is now dead, you still get the extra effect even though can't give them the gift. So, you keep having a single player draw a card, but once they mill out you continue trying to give them a card even though they have lost. Starfall Invocation doesn't let you Reanimate anything in your graveyard. It only gets things that were "put into your graveyard this way". Given that you just boardwiped a few dozen times to mill the player out, chances are Naru Meha will be the only thing dying to it at that point. Because no part of the combo is optional, if there is still more than one player left and no one stops it, the game will end in a draw through a forced loop.
This shouldn't be hard to figure out, the first Mindskinner prevents all damage, and cards get milled instead. The second Mindskinner sees 0 damage (it's all presented) and does nothing. If damage can not be prevented, then all Mindskinners would prevent the damage (fail to do so) and cause mill. But this only happens if damage can not be prevented.
I'm not sure if you've covered it, but it would be interesting to know why Witness Protection enchanting a Bello makes it still have all its abilities. Ran into that last night and it still doesn't make any sense to me.
I can't find the video but I thought there was one on a very similar scenario pertaining to Magus of the Moon and humility. Basically, it comes down to the layers system.
@@Halloweenharen Or maybe I'm asking the channel creator for an in depth dig into the interaction, for mine and others' understanding. I know how they order layers but it still doesn't make sense how the way it's worded makes Witness Protection have no useful text. I'm not ashamed to admit when I'm too stupid to understand something.
If I'm correct, Bello applies in Layer 4, Type-Changing Abilities, as it changes the permanents into an Elemental creature in addition to their other types. Meanwhile, Witness Protection would start applying in Layer 5, Color-Changing Abilities. According to 613.6, "...If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process."
Luckily replacement & prevention effects are really just a lot simpler than continuous effects. Dependency and layers apply to continuous effects only. Similar idea somewhat - a bunch of things all trying to apply at the same time - but remember that continuous effects, well, continue to happen over a long period of time, whereas replacements happen in one event and are done. (Some continuous effect could keep causing the same sort of replacement effect to happen repeatedly, but each application of the replacement effect is totally separate.)
It helps to take it step by step and write down exactly "what is the event" at each stage. At the beginning: "Nick takes 10." After Mindskinner: "Nick takes 0 and mills 10." After Furnace: "Nick takes 0x2 and mills 10." Just don't worry about what a card is going to do until it's that card's "turn" to apply its effect. Now in terms of strategically choosing the correct order, that's where experience is helpful so you don't have to do this whole process on the spot :)
This replacement effect ruling angers me because it doesn't match what the cards say they do. Furnace of Rath and similar cards say that a 'source DEALS' more damage, they don't say that 'players and permanents TAKE' more damage. This phrasing clearly states that the source of damage is the affected object of the replacement effect, not the receiver of that damage. IMO either this ruling needs to be reversed or all damage modifying abilities in the game needs their oracle text errata'd. I.e, Furnace of Rath should say: "If a player or permanent would take damage from a source, it takes double that damage from that source instead." I mean no offense to your work Dave, you do a great job interpreting the rules. I'm mad at the game, not you. (though you may still be offended despite my meaning no offense based on how replacement effects work. 😂)
I understand your frustration, but I don't really see a difference between those two wordings. In either case, the source of the damage remains the same, the effected object or player remains the same, and the damage event that the replacement/prevention effect applies to is identical, it has the same source, same target (or otherwise designated affected object/player), etc. The source of an event is not affected by replacement effects. You can tell, because when the event happens, none of it's characteristics change, no damage is marked on it, it doesn't mill cards or gain poison counters. It doesn't even gain life from Lifelink. The closest thing to being affected the source could claim is that if it has a "whenever this deals damage, [ability triggers]" might trigger differently. But I think that's pretty clearly a secondary affect here, otherwise the replacement/prevention effects would *also* be considered affected by the event that they're modifying.
I see what you mean about wording implying one perspective or another, but consider that if I break a window, or a window is broken by me, either way the window is the thing that broke. The choice of subject for that sentence doesn't change which thing was affected. And one thing simplifying all this in terms of rules is that a lot of the time these "who is affected" questions come up, it's about damage or characteristics changing, so the rule is very easy to follow: The object taking the damage is the affected object. The object whose characteristics are changing is the affected object. We don't need to play tricky wording detective on this one.
I think a helpful thing to focus on is that the rule doesn't refer to what/who is being affected *by the RE*. it refers to what/who is being affected *by the event taking place*. when the event is damage, it's always clear what/who is affected.
When one thing deals damage to another, the thing that took the damage is the one whose game statistics change. Damage is marked on the affected creature, or life is lost from the player, or loyalty counters are removed from the planeswalker, etc. The only case in which I could see the damage DEALER being the affected object would be in the case of Commander damage - since each Commander tracks Commander damage dealt, I'd understand an argument that the Commander is being changed by dealing the damage; but really, in that case, it's still the defending player being affected, the Commander just "sees" the damage it did and "remembers" it.
4:10 Judge Dave: Nick will take 20 damage no matter what. Pretty cool, right?
Nick: No. No that’s not pretty cool. 😂😂😂
Hopefully, he can at least agree it's a pretty cool ruling, even if the result is...not ideal for him.
I can't be your target audience because I have hexproof.
Lol. LMFAO
So he is committing a crime for each one of us?
Sorry, if you look at the rules for Audience it pretty much says that an Audience is a group of players, and anything that targets an Audience will happen to each player that is appart of that Audience in a similar way an "each player" effect does.
These effects are like that on a overloaded Cyclonic Rift or an Earthquake, but for a specific group of players. So even if some players in that Audience have protection or hexproof, it will still manages to affect all the players in that Audience and things still happen (one exception for players who have protection from the specific type of source and if the effect is dealing damage).
@@FreakGene So, banding for players.
@@Sauvenil yes and no. There isn't any damage distribution, if a creature has the ability to attack an audience, and isn't blocked by one of the players in the audience, it does damage to each player in that audience equal to its power.
We did it, chat! We're helping!
[Mind-Skinner] Goblin {U}{U}{R}
Legendary Enchantment Creature - Goblin Horror
2/2
When [_-_] Goblin enters, roll a d20.
1-4:
Put a cursed role sticker on it.
5-7:
Each opponent may conjure a banned or restricted card they own outside the game or in their collection into their library, then seeks a banned or restricted card.
8-10:
Put a 10/1 sticker on [CARDNAME]
11-13:
You become the monarch, then you take the initiative, then you reveal the top card of your scheme deck and set that scheme in motion. Roll the Planar die.
14-16:
Add six {R}.
17-19:
Choose target nonland card an opponent owns on the battlefield or in a revealed zone not in that player's hand. Put a Restricted sticker on it.
20:
Name a nonland card. Search one or more among target opponent's graveyard, hand, library, sideboard, trade binder, collection, and pockets for any number of copies of that card. Put a Banned sticker on each of them. If a player's library was searched this way, that player shuffles.
Strategic implications of being able to apply the furnace of rath before the mindskinner: If your deck benefits from having cards in the graveyard, obviously, but also if you're in a multiplayer game, Mindskinner mills each opponent, so in a format with multiple opponents, this could allow you to potentially mill a mutual opponent earlier, banking on being able to then take out the Mindskinner player after your mutual opponent is out of the game
One neat caveat is that each player in a multiplayer game can choose whether they mill 10 or 20 cards separately, so people with "graveyard matters" can choose to dig deeper while the others take the normal effect.
3:18 Amy can't attack with the mindskinner and then play insult because insult is a sorcery and can't be played after attackers are declared and before damage.
Valley Floodcaller says hi.
That’s what I came here to post… I’m like, Mindskinner just does its normal thing, cuz apparently Amy is playing Insult post-combat for some reason 😅
I chalk this one up to MtG power creep that I just assumed Insult would be an instant because it just seemed so underwhelming as a sorcery
@@JudgingFtW To be fair, there are ways to cast it at instant speed (such as my previous comment).
@@seanheath4492 No reason it can't be cast first main phase
Love your series. Informative easy to digest and a very calm voicd
If Nick's commander is in his library, and it happens to be the top card, do players necessarily know? If Amy manifests it as a face-down 2/2, when does she have to let players know it's a commander? Can she wait until after dealing combat damage?
Your commander is always the same commander, even if it is in your deck, hand, or face down on the board. Being a commander isn't a characteristic that goes away when face down. 903.3 is very clear about this, it is a commander.
But I'm not aware of any rule that says that just because a designation is on a card in a hidden zone, means that that card is kept distinct and it's characteristics are known. 903.3e says that "your commander" effects can "find" and "see" the commander even in hidden zones, but unless the effect says otherwise, I think the commander stays hidden and only it's oracle text and any effects applied to it are used instead.
I don't think that Amy would say "this is commander damage" when the face down commander does damage, but she should keep her face down creatures distinct from each other as normal, and if a commander is potentially face down, she should keep track of damage dealt to players by each. I would assume that state based actions can't confirm that the damage is commander damage until the commander changes zones (and is thus revealed), is turned face up, or is otherwise revealed.
This is rather uncomfortable, I feel there should be clear rules/rulings for this because there are legendary creatures with Disguise and Megamorph etc.
Definitely learn some new stuff with this ruling. Had no idea prevention effects overlapped like this
I've looked over these rules before and basically remembered "sooooo...prevention is the same as replacement effects, with the exception that 'can't be prevented' applies to only them." Haven't looked at tricky interactions though, cool examples! I still wonder if they couldn't have just merged those 2 sections of the rules, but I guess if that means you don't need to read the phrase "prevention or replacement effect" rather than "replacement effect" every single dang time while you're reading a rule, it's worth it haha.
If I was Nick, I’d jus catch Amy by stating tat Insult is Sorcery. Under normal circumstances, can’t cast it during attack phase😬
Amy has a Vedalken Orrery out, natch
I.. wanna build Izzet mill now
Wait. The player taking the damage gets to decide how much damage??? I had no idea.
Cool that Nick gets to pick how much to mill. And extra cool that the combo still deals 20 damage whichever way you slice it!
Yep, this also was something I learned when playing Torbran with other damage modifiers. I always want to add his 2 and then double it, but the affected player gets to choose and will usually double before adding 2 to save not taking needless damage. It is up to them to order the replacements though, so there may be a niche time where taking the extra damage is a good thing.
@@johnbuscher7119 I once saw a "buff strategy" deck (makes ALL its creatures big) go up against a red burn damage multiplier deck and use the replacement rules to excellent effect. I don't recall the exact creature, but the green/white player had played a (base 1/1) creature and later wanted rid of its continuous ability and had no sac outlet. The burn player cast a Blasphemous Act that they assumed was going to do 54 damage to each creature ([13*2*2]+2)... the buff player cast two instants to give a big creature with Dragon Throne of Tarkir on it some extra buffs before using the Throne's ability, boosting all his creatures to a total of +55/+55 so enough to survive the Act.... except. For specifically the one he wanted rid of, he chose to do the math as ([13+2]*2*2) so it took 60 and died.
Super weird to me that the blocker decides. Doesn't the attacker decide block order? You'd think the affecting stuff would be designed to match up.
The player, or controller of the permanent, that is affected by an event gets to decide the order that replacement effects apply to said event. In this case, the player would be the one being dealt damage so they decide.
Each player gets to control the damage assignment by their creatures, but effects that increase or prevent damage take place when damage is dealt rather than when it is assigned.
Because of this, it also means that you can ignore protection when calculating trample damage (a 4/4 trample blocked by a 2/2 with protection from it will trample over for 2 even though it won't end up actually dealing damage to the 2/2), and you apply damage doublers after you calculate trample as well (if a 4/4 trample was blocked by a 2/2 while the attacker controls a City on Fire, it deals 6 damage to the 2/2 and the player because it assigned 2 to both then was tripled.)
Politely requesting Naru Meha + Starfall Convocation.
What happens after you mill out one opponent? The gift is still promised, you can't change the chosen opponent, but the opponent is now invalid.
Yes you can reanimate something else, but what if naru meha is the only creature in your graveyard?
Promising an opponent a gift is an additional cost. You can only make a promise while casting a gift spell.
The choice made for that cost is a copiable value though, so any copies of the spell will remember they had promised a gift to the same player.
The text of gift cards doesn't say "if a gift was given", it says "if a gift was promised". Because of that, if you promised a gift to a living player who is now dead, you still get the extra effect even though can't give them the gift.
So, you keep having a single player draw a card, but once they mill out you continue trying to give them a card even though they have lost.
Starfall Invocation doesn't let you Reanimate anything in your graveyard. It only gets things that were "put into your graveyard this way". Given that you just boardwiped a few dozen times to mill the player out, chances are Naru Meha will be the only thing dying to it at that point.
Because no part of the combo is optional, if there is still more than one player left and no one stops it, the game will end in a draw through a forced loop.
I talked about how this scenario plays out in my video about the Gift mechanic, DDR#804: th-cam.com/video/Vy4qwTLFzqg/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for the reply!
what would happen if you have an non legandary clone of the mindskinner ?
This shouldn't be hard to figure out, the first Mindskinner prevents all damage, and cards get milled instead. The second Mindskinner sees 0 damage (it's all presented) and does nothing.
If damage can not be prevented, then all Mindskinners would prevent the damage (fail to do so) and cause mill. But this only happens if damage can not be prevented.
solid
I think you may need to revisit Aminatou/Miracle. Too many people not understanding what is happening. 😂
I'm not sure if you've covered it, but it would be interesting to know why Witness Protection enchanting a Bello makes it still have all its abilities. Ran into that last night and it still doesn't make any sense to me.
I can't find the video but I thought there was one on a very similar scenario pertaining to Magus of the Moon and humility. Basically, it comes down to the layers system.
@@HeroErix Well, that's about as far as we got last night and it just doesn't feel good to go off "just trust me it doesn't work how you think"
@@ZSAITOSEI then look up layers instead of complaining in the comments
@@Halloweenharen Or maybe I'm asking the channel creator for an in depth dig into the interaction, for mine and others' understanding. I know how they order layers but it still doesn't make sense how the way it's worded makes Witness Protection have no useful text. I'm not ashamed to admit when I'm too stupid to understand something.
If I'm correct, Bello applies in Layer 4, Type-Changing Abilities, as it changes the permanents into an Elemental creature in addition to their other types. Meanwhile, Witness Protection would start applying in Layer 5, Color-Changing Abilities.
According to 613.6, "...If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process."
I thought dependency would apply in this case. Huh...
Luckily replacement & prevention effects are really just a lot simpler than continuous effects.
Dependency and layers apply to continuous effects only. Similar idea somewhat - a bunch of things all trying to apply at the same time - but remember that continuous effects, well, continue to happen over a long period of time, whereas replacements happen in one event and are done. (Some continuous effect could keep causing the same sort of replacement effect to happen repeatedly, but each application of the replacement effect is totally separate.)
Poor Amy, being less effective :(
🤯🤯🤯
Too much info for my little brain 😓
It helps to take it step by step and write down exactly "what is the event" at each stage. At the beginning: "Nick takes 10." After Mindskinner: "Nick takes 0 and mills 10." After Furnace: "Nick takes 0x2 and mills 10." Just don't worry about what a card is going to do until it's that card's "turn" to apply its effect.
Now in terms of strategically choosing the correct order, that's where experience is helpful so you don't have to do this whole process on the spot :)
This replacement effect ruling angers me because it doesn't match what the cards say they do.
Furnace of Rath and similar cards say that a 'source DEALS' more damage, they don't say that 'players and permanents TAKE' more damage. This phrasing clearly states that the source of damage is the affected object of the replacement effect, not the receiver of that damage.
IMO either this ruling needs to be reversed or all damage modifying abilities in the game needs their oracle text errata'd.
I.e, Furnace of Rath should say:
"If a player or permanent would take damage from a source, it takes double that damage from that source instead."
I mean no offense to your work Dave, you do a great job interpreting the rules. I'm mad at the game, not you.
(though you may still be offended despite my meaning no offense based on how replacement effects work. 😂)
I understand your frustration, but I don't really see a difference between those two wordings. In either case, the source of the damage remains the same, the effected object or player remains the same, and the damage event that the replacement/prevention effect applies to is identical, it has the same source, same target (or otherwise designated affected object/player), etc.
The source of an event is not affected by replacement effects. You can tell, because when the event happens, none of it's characteristics change, no damage is marked on it, it doesn't mill cards or gain poison counters. It doesn't even gain life from Lifelink.
The closest thing to being affected the source could claim is that if it has a "whenever this deals damage, [ability triggers]" might trigger differently. But I think that's pretty clearly a secondary affect here, otherwise the replacement/prevention effects would *also* be considered affected by the event that they're modifying.
I see what you mean about wording implying one perspective or another, but consider that if I break a window, or a window is broken by me, either way the window is the thing that broke. The choice of subject for that sentence doesn't change which thing was affected. And one thing simplifying all this in terms of rules is that a lot of the time these "who is affected" questions come up, it's about damage or characteristics changing, so the rule is very easy to follow: The object taking the damage is the affected object. The object whose characteristics are changing is the affected object. We don't need to play tricky wording detective on this one.
I think a helpful thing to focus on is that the rule doesn't refer to what/who is being affected *by the RE*. it refers to what/who is being affected *by the event taking place*. when the event is damage, it's always clear what/who is affected.
When one thing deals damage to another, the thing that took the damage is the one whose game statistics change. Damage is marked on the affected creature, or life is lost from the player, or loyalty counters are removed from the planeswalker, etc. The only case in which I could see the damage DEALER being the affected object would be in the case of Commander damage - since each Commander tracks Commander damage dealt, I'd understand an argument that the Commander is being changed by dealing the damage; but really, in that case, it's still the defending player being affected, the Commander just "sees" the damage it did and "remembers" it.
I lead a team building medical law software, and some of these problems are more complicated than what we work on. This game is astounding.