Stay tuned for more educational videos as we continue to build a community of track, drift and autocross and automotive enthusiasts. Please comment here for any future topics you’d like us to cover. Stay tuned for the next video as we expand on this topic. Please note, as pointed out by a subscriber that at 5:23, the entry understeer correction in the chart should show up arrow front rebound and down arrow front compression. Everywhere else it is correct, except at 5:23, my apologies. Subscribe for more!
If you could do a tell all in terms of what you learned setting up your M2, the TT Cup and talk about drive train differences, that would be awesome. Looking forward to more educational videos... well presented and looking forward to part 2
Very few people has the luxury of experience and testing as driverspaddock has in setup. Finally good to see more videos of this type be made. Anyone with intention of having coilovers, or owning coilovers should watch this
Glad to be able to share my experience with the community and hopefully get more people on track… this is the very first ‘educational’ video on the channel. Hope to continue to grow and expand this part of the channel. Thanks for watching.
On a track like Laguna Seca, where you can gain a lot on left hand corners, it pays to have a biased setup that keeps more grip on the left side tires, the rights are going to grip regardless, the weak link is the left, as using all 4 tires the most effectively will give you the most grip and overall lap time. To get the most out of a track like LS you want to delay weight transfer to the front right, and unload it as quickly as possible, you also want to stop front weight transfer since so much lap time comes from braking deep into the corners. This means soft rebound and stiff compression on the front right, and soft compression on the rear left and stiff rebound. The front left, and rear right would be tuned to driver preference. With coil overs you could also alter the ride height to control this weight transfer, by raising the front right and increasing spring pre-load. In theory, much like you run negative camber to make the tire flat in the corners, so too, can damping and ride height work to achieve this. Thanks for the video and the chance to expand on the subject for the future.
Great video! I've been having issues with the rebound setting on my one-way set. On the exit of T13 of TMP, my front would bounce excessively. This helps to clarify things a lot!
This video couldn't have come at a better time. My G87 is on order and I'm looking into what suspension I should look at after getting some seat time with the stock car. I really appreciate you breaking this all down to understand! I can't wait to see what else you have in store! Cheers!
If you think about the suspension frequency on an 18in wheel, at ~90-120mph high speed damping starts having an effect on handling as well, simply because of the frequency of the road and the tire. Once you add aero into the mix, then high speed damping really starts to affect handling, since high speed damping can cause a car to jack down, or up at certain stiffness and frequency. This means you start affecting ride height, and center of pressure, as well as mechanical balance.
If you don’t know a Kyle… you just might be Kyle… 😂 but check back next week to see how Kyle has been kicking ass in local time attack with what he’s learned here.
I don’t have experience with those unfortunately. You should absolutely do some research on what spring rates people have used for your car and use case, and take a look at their damping curves.
Great video. For mid corner understeer people say increase the spring rate if it’s rolling too much/bottoming out. Why would this help as it’s would increase weight transfer on that axle? Or is it a case of reducing geometry changes like camber to gain grip?
In the case of excessive roll or bottoming out, Increasing spring rates reduces roll and hopefully eliminates bottoming out. It increases roll stiffness. This can help support the tire and optimize grip on all 4 corners and not upset the car when you’re going over bumps on bump stops. Softer springs slow load transfer and vice versa. Like I said in the video, increasing compression from the softest setting click by click gives you more grip until ‘it doesn’t’ - until the tire becomes skiddish. Same with springs. On both ends of the spectrum, you’ll have issues. On the softer side - excessive lean and bottom out. On the other, a car that can’t keep the tires on the ground or is loading the tire too quickly - becoming skiddish. This is because the system is support the tire, allowing it load more quickly - pushing the tire into the ground faster. Hope this helps, thanks for watching and we will continue to expand on next weeks video !
I like the discussion about high-speed damping, but I think the other parts are a bit flawed, as with all advice suggesting specific directional changes to damping. They are assuming you are on one end of the optimal range and not the other. This is why many people go down rabbit holes, and subsequently, create a horrible setup. It's helpful to differentiate between *grip* and *balance*. Let's take the corner entry example. If you've already got too much front rebound damping, adding more might lead to more oversteer, but not because you're adding grip at the front, and quite contrary. You then feel like adding compression at the rear because the car now understeers on exit. So you end up with a car that has low grip and snappy behavior. Then you start to change spring rates because you misidentified the problem... Suspension tuning is very complicated and nuanced.
You're explaining this all wrong. You're suggesting that softening the compression damping increases the load transfer! No. Load transfer is fixed by the physics of the car dimensions, you can't change the amount of transfer with the dampers. You can only change the relative front to rear transfer ratio, and then only during transition. In dive you suggest that softer front dampers increases weight transfer to the front? No. Again, the amount of weight shift is not controlled by the dampers and in fact stiffer compression damping, not softer, must speed up the reaction of the car. You're explanation would suggest that if you had soft front compression damping and infinitely stiff rebound damping, that the front weight shift would never return to the rear because the front of the car would stay pitched down. That is clearly not the case because it's not the angle of the car that causes weight transfer, it's the act of slowing the car during braking. As soon as the braking force is released, the weight shift ends regardless of the actual pitch angle of the car. Your explanation of the effect of the dampers on vehicle behaviour is largely correct, but your understanding of why is way off.
To be fair, Rate of transfer vs quantity of xfer isn't something that is easily understood. I will say if the OP had a video with damper traces overlaid with driver inputs overlaid with an IMU trace, it'd be a lot more convincing. But then again to ask that for a grassroots enthusiast is somewhat unrealistic as well.
Some of the explanations are a bit off. Stiffer/slower damping increases weight transfer more quickly while softer/faster damping will allow faster body movement but means slower weight transfer. Also ride heights change static weight distribution very little.
Damping twist directions are not universal. I would have left that part out. What you said would be backwards for my MCS dampers, for example. Also, what you're saying doesn't jive at all with my understanding of physics and the handling effects I've experienced in my car on track. Compression damping transfers dynamic load onto the tire faster. Rebound pulls it off faster. But that's the opposite of what you're saying about "weight transfer". What you're saying makes sense in terms of actual roll/pitch and resulting movement of static weight due to the CG moving, but with modern cars with track suspension and low CGs, that weight shift is actually really small compared to the transfer of dynamic cornering/braking/accelleration forces. You're obviously not doing the wrong things with your dampers given your on track results, though. I just can't help thinking the old "because weight transfer" explanations are obsolete, and it's much more complicated than that, involving things like dynamic roll center effects.
I have to agree on this. I don't think his damper tuning guide actually obey the law of physics. Total lateral load transfer does not change within the chassis, if the driver doesn't change the static weight of the car, or CoG of the car in field. Elastic stiffness (springs and bars) and geometric stiffness (anti geo, and roll center position) yield the lateral load transfer distribution of the car when the car is at steady cornering stage. Dampers tuning is merely a tool to effectively speed whichever ends up to that steady cornering stage. If the front axle arrives to its steady cornering stage first, then the car will understeer momentarily. He also failed to mention when the chassis arriving from transient load transfer to steady cornering stage, it is the cross weight (or load) that having the most effect on the chassis balance. Think of outside front tire with inside rear tire, and inside front tire with outside rear tire. When he said at entry to create oversteer, "we need to soften the front ls comp or stiffen the ls rebound". I knew this video isn't done factually, rather anecdotal opinions. Granted there are many types of entries. 1. Traditional brake release into apex 2. Increasing brake pressure while steering is applied. 3. On throttle entry. 4. Throttle lift off entry. All of these will require a different types of dampers tuning. This dampers tuning video feels like half baked to me, it's all.
Stay tuned for more educational videos as we continue to build a community of track, drift and autocross and automotive enthusiasts.
Please comment here for any future topics you’d like us to cover. Stay tuned for the next video as we expand on this topic.
Please note, as pointed out by a subscriber that at 5:23, the entry understeer correction in the chart should show up arrow front rebound and down arrow front compression. Everywhere else it is correct, except at 5:23, my apologies.
Subscribe for more!
If you could do a tell all in terms of what you learned setting up your M2, the TT Cup and talk about drive train differences, that would be awesome.
Looking forward to more educational videos... well presented and looking forward to part 2
Can you talk about sway bars and ride height in a future video?
Very few people has the luxury of experience and testing as driverspaddock has in setup. Finally good to see more videos of this type be made. Anyone with intention of having coilovers, or owning coilovers should watch this
Glad to be able to share my experience with the community and hopefully get more people on track… this is the very first ‘educational’ video on the channel. Hope to continue to grow and expand this part of the channel.
Thanks for watching.
Very useful for us track rats, learned something new today and looking forward to more episodes in this series!
This is exactly what I needed…. Really well explained, will definitely put this to use at my next track day.
On a track like Laguna Seca, where you can gain a lot on left hand corners, it pays to have a biased setup that keeps more grip on the left side tires, the rights are going to grip regardless, the weak link is the left, as using all 4 tires the most effectively will give you the most grip and overall lap time. To get the most out of a track like LS you want to delay weight transfer to the front right, and unload it as quickly as possible, you also want to stop front weight transfer since so much lap time comes from braking deep into the corners. This means soft rebound and stiff compression on the front right, and soft compression on the rear left and stiff rebound. The front left, and rear right would be tuned to driver preference. With coil overs you could also alter the ride height to control this weight transfer, by raising the front right and increasing spring pre-load. In theory, much like you run negative camber to make the tire flat in the corners, so too, can damping and ride height work to achieve this.
Thanks for the video and the chance to expand on the subject for the future.
That is some amazing technical insight, thank you for sharing it and watching. Will definitely expand more in future videos.
Awesome! Defintely would love a guide/series from you talking about various aspects of racing (bonus that it's an M2)
Great video! I've been having issues with the rebound setting on my one-way set. On the exit of T13 of TMP, my front would bounce excessively. This helps to clarify things a lot!
Great video! Very practical and easy to understand
Twist my knobs, please
OF content.
Premium subscribers only
This video couldn't have come at a better time. My G87 is on order and I'm looking into what suspension I should look at after getting some seat time with the stock car. I really appreciate you breaking this all down to understand! I can't wait to see what else you have in store! Cheers!
Thanks for watching, glad this helped! Stay tuned for more videos on set up
Thank you for this insightful video! Learned something new today:)
Stay tuned for week as we continue to expand.
If you think about the suspension frequency on an 18in wheel, at ~90-120mph high speed damping starts having an effect on handling as well, simply because of the frequency of the road and the tire. Once you add aero into the mix, then high speed damping really starts to affect handling, since high speed damping can cause a car to jack down, or up at certain stiffness and frequency. This means you start affecting ride height, and center of pressure, as well as mechanical balance.
Great vid Jay!
Been needing this video ! Thanks so much jay !
Glad you found it helpful. Part 2 is coming soon !
Not a racer. This hurt my brain a little. Well presented.
Great video for reference !
Thanks for watching, glad you found it helpful!
Very cool video 😊
Every video this channel puts out is relevant for me 😂
Just trying to build a community of like minded individuals here.
Thanks for watching! Subscribe for more
Thanks Jay !
kyle’s check in here 😂. i’m a kyle.
If you don’t know a Kyle… you just might be Kyle… 😂 but check back next week to see how Kyle has been kicking ass in local time attack with what he’s learned here.
Great video! What do you think about the Tein Monosports? I am thinking about getting them for daily driving/HPDE.
I don’t have experience with those unfortunately. You should absolutely do some research on what spring rates people have used for your car and use case, and take a look at their damping curves.
@ thank you! What about Apexi or Silvers coilovers? Any experience with them?
Great video. For mid corner understeer people say increase the spring rate if it’s rolling too much/bottoming out. Why would this help as it’s would increase weight transfer on that axle? Or is it a case of reducing geometry changes like camber to gain grip?
In the case of excessive roll or bottoming out, Increasing spring rates reduces roll and hopefully eliminates bottoming out. It increases roll stiffness. This can help support the tire and optimize grip on all 4 corners and not upset the car when you’re going over bumps on bump stops.
Softer springs slow load transfer and vice versa.
Like I said in the video, increasing compression from the softest setting click by click gives you more grip until ‘it doesn’t’ - until the tire becomes skiddish.
Same with springs. On both ends of the spectrum, you’ll have issues. On the softer side - excessive lean and bottom out. On the other, a car that can’t keep the tires on the ground or is loading the tire too quickly - becoming skiddish. This is because the system is support the tire, allowing it load more quickly - pushing the tire into the ground faster.
Hope this helps, thanks for watching and we will continue to expand on next weeks video !
More knobs= more better?
@@haojunliangcc always. I need knobs in my knobs.
For best bang for buck, should I just get Ohlins for my brz? Or should I do kw cs 2way (3way too expensive…). Or should I just get some tein
RCE t2 😉
RCE tarmac 2. I have those on my BRZ.
YES
I like the discussion about high-speed damping, but I think the other parts are a bit flawed, as with all advice suggesting specific directional changes to damping. They are assuming you are on one end of the optimal range and not the other. This is why many people go down rabbit holes, and subsequently, create a horrible setup.
It's helpful to differentiate between *grip* and *balance*.
Let's take the corner entry example. If you've already got too much front rebound damping, adding more might lead to more oversteer, but not because you're adding grip at the front, and quite contrary. You then feel like adding compression at the rear because the car now understeers on exit. So you end up with a car that has low grip and snappy behavior. Then you start to change spring rates because you misidentified the problem...
Suspension tuning is very complicated and nuanced.
Thanks but I'm still going to set my dampers to full stiff and complain about the track surface.
Are you…. A Kyle? 😂
You're explaining this all wrong. You're suggesting that softening the compression damping increases the load transfer! No. Load transfer is fixed by the physics of the car dimensions, you can't change the amount of transfer with the dampers. You can only change the relative front to rear transfer ratio, and then only during transition.
In dive you suggest that softer front dampers increases weight transfer to the front? No. Again, the amount of weight shift is not controlled by the dampers and in fact stiffer compression damping, not softer, must speed up the reaction of the car.
You're explanation would suggest that if you had soft front compression damping and infinitely stiff rebound damping, that the front weight shift would never return to the rear because the front of the car would stay pitched down. That is clearly not the case because it's not the angle of the car that causes weight transfer, it's the act of slowing the car during braking. As soon as the braking force is released, the weight shift ends regardless of the actual pitch angle of the car.
Your explanation of the effect of the dampers on vehicle behaviour is largely correct, but your understanding of why is way off.
This 👆🏼
To be fair, Rate of transfer vs quantity of xfer isn't something that is easily understood.
I will say if the OP had a video with damper traces overlaid with driver inputs overlaid with an IMU trace, it'd be a lot more convincing.
But then again to ask that for a grassroots enthusiast is somewhat unrealistic as well.
then rent an engineer to listen to your feedback and implement changes while understanding the psychology of the driver.
Kyle. Lmao.
Some of the explanations are a bit off. Stiffer/slower damping increases weight transfer more quickly while softer/faster damping will allow faster body movement but means slower weight transfer.
Also ride heights change static weight distribution very little.
Damping twist directions are not universal. I would have left that part out. What you said would be backwards for my MCS dampers, for example.
Also, what you're saying doesn't jive at all with my understanding of physics and the handling effects I've experienced in my car on track. Compression damping transfers dynamic load onto the tire faster. Rebound pulls it off faster. But that's the opposite of what you're saying about "weight transfer".
What you're saying makes sense in terms of actual roll/pitch and resulting movement of static weight due to the CG moving, but with modern cars with track suspension and low CGs, that weight shift is actually really small compared to the transfer of dynamic cornering/braking/accelleration forces.
You're obviously not doing the wrong things with your dampers given your on track results, though. I just can't help thinking the old "because weight transfer" explanations are obsolete, and it's much more complicated than that, involving things like dynamic roll center effects.
I have to agree on this. I don't think his damper tuning guide actually obey the law of physics.
Total lateral load transfer does not change within the chassis, if the driver doesn't change the static weight of the car, or CoG of the car in field.
Elastic stiffness (springs and bars) and geometric stiffness (anti geo, and roll center position) yield the lateral load transfer distribution of the car when the car is at steady cornering stage.
Dampers tuning is merely a tool to effectively speed whichever ends up to that steady cornering stage. If the front axle arrives to its steady cornering stage first, then the car will understeer momentarily.
He also failed to mention when the chassis arriving from transient load transfer to steady cornering stage, it is the cross weight (or load) that having the most effect on the chassis balance. Think of outside front tire with inside rear tire, and inside front tire with outside rear tire.
When he said at entry to create oversteer, "we need to soften the front ls comp or stiffen the ls rebound". I knew this video isn't done factually, rather anecdotal opinions.
Granted there are many types of entries.
1. Traditional brake release into apex
2. Increasing brake pressure while steering is applied.
3. On throttle entry.
4. Throttle lift off entry.
All of these will require a different types of dampers tuning.
This dampers tuning video feels like half baked to me, it's all.
She twist on my knob til im damping
Detail
He said knob.😂
Weight doesn't transfer, load transfers.
Elaborate 👆🏼
Nothing moves from front to rear, left to to right. Just the amount of load on a given tire info the ground.