Why does TURKEY deny GENOCIDE?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มิ.ย. 2024
- On 24 April 2021, President Biden formally stated that the United States recognised the mass deportation of Armenians by the Ottoman Empire in 1915 as genocide. As expected, Turkey reacted furiously to the announcement, which has come as a major blow to its long standing efforts to fend off cases of Armenian Genocide recognition. So, what is the issue all about? And why does Turkey campaign so strongly against recognition?
Hello and welcome! My name is James Ker-Lindsay. Here I take an informed look at International Relations with a focus on territorial conflicts, secession, independence movements and new countries. If you like what you see, please do subscribe. If you want more, including exclusive content and benefits, consider becoming a channel member. Many thanks!
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In 1915, soon after the Ottoman Empire joined the First World War on the side of Germany, Armenians living in the Empire's eastern provinces rose up against Ottoman rule. In retaliation, the Ottoman Government ordered the arrest of many leading community leaders and the deportation of the Armenian community. In the months that followed, the Armenian people of the Empire, along with Christian Assyrians, were forced to march south into the deserts of Syria. As a result, it is estimated that anywhere between 600,000 and 1.5 million men, women and children died from hunger, exhaustion, neglect, summary execution and abuse. Faced with a national trauma, and now spread out around the world, in the years that followed the Armenian people began a campaign to have the events of 1915 recognised as a genocide. In recent decades, this campaign has gained ground, much to the steadfast opposition of Turkey. While it accepts that hundreds of thousands dies, it regards claims of genocide as incorrect, unproven and as a stain on the nation. So, what are the arguments and what does recognition mean in real terms?
CHAPTERS
0:00 Introduction and Titles
0:45 States and Acceptance of Past Atrocities
2:06 Understanding the Events of 1915
3:30 The Emergence of the Genocide Recognition Campaign
5:02 The Growth of Genocide Recognitions
6:39 The Case Against and For Recognition
10:56 Turkey and the Armenian Genocide
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FURTHER READING & USEFUL SOURCES
US Announcement on Armenian Genocide www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-r...
Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs www.mfa.gov.tr/the-armenian-a...
Genocide Scholars Letter genocidescholars.org/wp-conte...
European Parliament Resolution (1987) www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdo...
CIA Report on ASALA www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/...
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KEYWORDS
#Turkey #ArmenianGenocide #Genocide
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This is obviously an extremely controversial topic. Even more than usual, I would ask that people watch the entire video before jumping in to the discussion - one way or another. But it does raise important questions about whether - and how - countries are coming to terms with past atrocities. I would be really interested to hear from viewers about debates in their own countries about the past.
Good day, I'm Turkish and if you want to know the facts about the so-called armenian genocide, I recommend this video.
th-cam.com/video/QQg9OQ5TLdM/w-d-xo.html
It is slow and bringing it up is stokes up emotions - especially amongst those who identify themselves as 'nationalists'. I identify myself with two states with which I am having close connection (one having had an empire and another being under an empire in the past) and in either, the levels of acknowledgement of past atrocities is a touchy subject at both social and political levels.
@@anirudhparthasarathy3387 What countries are those?
A video on the Circassian genocide would be interesting.
German civilians who were killed during Holocaust? Zero.
Russian civilians who were killed during Circassian or Crimean genocides? Zero.
Japanese civilians who were killed during ''war crimes'' in China? Zero.
Belgian civilians who were killed during Congolese genocide? Zero.
Spanish civilians who were killed during Aztec genoice? Zero.
British civilians who were killed during 1857 rebellion of India? Few hundred.
American civilians who were killed during Native American genocide? Few thousand.
Turkish civilians who were killed during ''Armenian genocide''?? HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS...
This alone shows how insanely the subject is politicized, in fact often Turkish casualties are completely ignored or worse even called ''Armenian resistance'' like it was women and children were targeting them so they got killed!!! Then how Russian empire invaded entire eastern Turkey in 1914 and encouraged Armenians to revolt is often ignored so they could claim Ottoman targeted ''peaceful'' and ''harmless'' people while in reality they revolted a year before their deportation.
''Armenian genocide'' is only an example of wicked politics, nothing else and Turkey will not recognize anything until Turkish/Muslim casualties are recognized from Balkans to Anatolia from Crimea to Caucasus but im pretty sure Crimean genocide will remain as ''Crimean deportation'' even if it wasn't any different than so called Armenian genocide...
This was probably the most unbiased video on this topic
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I did try to at least present the Turkish argument. Although, as you could probably tell, I have clear views on this. But it is important to understand the different positions in these important debates.
Armenia should recognise all the Muslims they killed
@@zccau2316 if Armenians killed, only to defend themselves against barbarian turks
@@noway6379 they killed civilians. İncluding members of my grandfather's family. Armenian dashnak militia.
@@ozbagat8355 yes, both sides committed atrocities
Another excellent and very balanced analysis of a very sensitive & difficult subject.. you're a brave man James taking on this one..! Nothing but admiration for you doing so..! all the best.. g
Thank you so much George. It’s always nice to see the friendly faces in the comments. I suppose I should expect a degree of abuse given the topics I cover but it has gone into overdrive this past week or so. I’ll be heading over to your channel again soon for my dose of relaxation and soothing calm! ☺️
@@JamesKerLindsay ..😊👍
Brave, agreed. But you gotta be kidding me he said 600k-1.5m to make Turks feel better about it that is biased if you ask me…
avrupa devletlerinin yaptığı soykırımları neden araştırmıyor yada ermenilerin yaptığı soykrımları
I'm sorry, but it's naive to treat the issue as if it's really only about the Armenian Genocide and has no wider implications. Turks have developed and carefully cultivated a national psychosis around the idea that They are trying to break up their country - "They" being a roster of villains that always includes the Armenians (both the diaspora and the government of Armenia) and often also includes the United States. The idea being that recognition of the Armenian Genocide would be only a first step towards forcing Turkey to cede eastern Anatolia to Armenia. This is both completely reasonable and utterly bonkers.
Completely reasonable in that plenty of Armenians and non-Armenians really do think like that: probably most of the politically-engaged members of the Armenian diaspora; plenty of Armenians in Armenia itself and Artsakh, presumably alongside their elected representatives; and the sort of people who generally don't care for the Turks to begin with, from Breivik types and Greek ultra-nationalists on the right to Che wannabes and PKK supporters on the left.
Utterly bonkers in that there is no grandiose anti-Turkish conspiracy to achieve this. Most of the people pursuing this objective are very open about it; if anything, you can't get them to shut up about it. And they're not in positions of power from which to make any of it happen. But then, as one of the many secret, well-placed members of that conspiracy, of course I'd say that, wouldn't I?
Anyway, a cold, calculated analysis of the current situation would reveal that Turkey's policy on this is counterproductive. The sort of people who believe Turkey should pay reparations in the form of territory aren't waiting for a Turkish recognition, as they already believe the Genocide happened. The sort of people who believe Turkey's denial do so because they are predisposed to take its side on this, not because they find its arguments compelling, so a reversal would mean little to them. Where the denial makes a difference is with people who both believe that the Armenian Genocide happened and have no quarrel with the Republic of Turkey. With them, continued denial does nothing but harm Turkish reputation and credibility.
Thank you so much. An incredible well-reasoned comment. I completely agree.
Why Western Anatolia and not Eastern Anatolia?
@@aurelianxcbd7799 I actually meant eastern Anatolia. That error has now been corrected.
They are right. They are the ones being targeted for terrorism and terrorism is an act of genocide.
@@eflvin You have to invoke karma because you've nothing else. The pursuit of territorial expansion while awaiting divine intervention has already proven catastrophic. Your solution seems to be waiting for an even bigger divine intervention.
Long-time subscriber here. I like the way you've handled this topic. Well done.
Thank you so much James. I really appreciate it. It was definitely one of those videos where I actually had to think long and hard about whether to go ahead with it. To be honest, I had to take a few minutes to consider whether to even to press the 'publish' button when it was finished!
Handled it? What is everyone worried about?
Well done James!! I am glad, I found your channel! A future topic could be the Lausanne Treaty, the related population exchange and what happened with the minorities in both countries!
Χαιρετισμούς από Αθήνα!
Thank you so much Dimitris. I really appreciate it. Great suggestion! A few others have also asked me to look at the population exchange. I certainly hope to cover it. It is amazing to think that such a monumental decision could be made to order two entire populations to move.
And very best regards from London! :-)
Geia sou kai kali nychta Afstralia! :-)
@@JamesKerLindsay ermenilerin doğu anadolu ve azerbaycanda ve yunanların batı anadolu da yaptığı soykırımları neden araştırmıyorsun?öeneğin fransanın cezayir, italyanın libya ve amerika kıtasındaki yerlilere yapılan soykırımları avusturalya da aborjinlere yapılan soykrımı!avrupa ve hristiyanlar soykırım yapınca neden hiç sesiniz çıkmıyor abd ırakta 2 milyon vietnamda 4 milyon sivile soykrım yaptı
Thanks another Interesting topic and you make so easy to understand, you stayed neutral aswell. 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿
@James Ker-Lindsay, I've been binge watching your videos and I have to say you really have a knack for falling into the really controversial topics. Most things like the Armenian Genocide or anything related to the Balkans such as your video on Kosovo or Bosnia falling apart are extremely difficult videos to do considering how emotionally charged they are. Most people avoid making these videos like the bubonic plague and for good reason. You sir took on the challenge and dove in head first.
Perhaps a video on the little known ethnic cleansing campaigns by Russia in the North Caucasus would be a nice topic for you to tackle next.
Thanks so much! Haha! Yes, I really do pick them. :-) But, interestingly, I don’t always get a massive backlash. Some do provoke huge anger. My one on Bulgaria and North Macedonia unleashed all the Bulgarian nationalists. (I have my theories on this.) But very often it is nice to see that people do try to engage with the topics I cover and actually want to have a proper discussion. I had always hoped it could become a bit of a haven for informed debate on international relations and conflict.
And great suggestion on the North Caucasus! Thank you. Let me look into it.
@@JamesKerLindsay
To be fair James you can't make a video on eastern European politics/ history and expect rational debate lol
You're asking for a lot my man 😂😂
@@JamesKerLindsay You should do a video on the Circassian Genocide by the Russian Empire.
@@williamdavis9562 are you implying some racist essentialist generalisation about how Eastern Europeans relate to their history? Clearly orientalism in your country didn’t die with the Victorians.
James is one of the few voices I value on international analysis. I don't always agree with his opinion pieces, but he approaches the most controversial of topics with a nuance seldom seen nowadays.
Thanks for all you do, Professor Ker-Lindsay.
Thank you so much. That's incredibly kind of you to say. I really appreciate it. I would certainly hope that my videos are watched with a critical eye. And I always like to hear constructive disagreement. Hopefully, that can at least stimulate debate. :-)
@Prof James Ker-Lindsay The major flaw amongst most commentators and journalists nowadays is their inability to listen.
Thank you for being someone who *does* listen.
avrupa=katliam,soygun,sömürge,soykrım
Would you ever do a video on the Circassian genocide ? I think only Georgia recognises it.
Also why is the Armenian genocide usually recognised more than the Assyrian genocide ? How similar were they ?
Because armenian genocide took more lives than greek or assyrian genocide. Those two should be recognized as well
@@user-co1gi7yd2r there is no such thing like greek genocide!
Russians also committed Tatar, ukrainian, kazakh genocides
@@enjoymfs9715 yes there is. And yes they did. And i dont know why bring russia to it, im not even russian
@@user-co1gi7yd2r i am just here to enlighten about other genocides. People do not talk about them .
Thank you so much for this revelation. Am Always hungry for your lectures.
Thank you so much. Always lovely to hear from you. I hope all is well with you and yours.
💯🇦🇲🙏🏻🇦🇲✝️🕊💕👏🏻
Great channel, would love to see content on the break up of Yugoslavia and the Yugoslav wars
Hi James! I have a question, or a request if you want so, how would you call or define the total debulgarisation of what is now known as North Macedonia ( former Yogoslavian Republic of Macedonia) conducted by the Yugoslavian authorities in a course of a few decades?
Hi Dilyan, great question. I certainly don't dispute that there has been a concerted effort to rewrite history by the Communist authorities in Yugoslavia. As I mentioned in the video, I was really taken aback by what I saw at the Museum in Skopje. But I also know that history can be extremely complex and highly political. I think my concern is not so much that Bulgaria feels aggrieved about what has happened, but rather the way that it has tried to deal with it. As I have said to many others in the comments, the approach has been all wrong. Macedonians have bene told for decades that the Bulgarians are the bad guys. But rather than try to win them over with patience, goodwill and understanding, it has instead adopted a bullying approach. I know people in Bulgaria don't see it that way, but that is exactly how it looks to outsiders.
As always thank you so much for the video James its really is an interesting topic and been developing a lot this last year. An odd fact the mention is every US state government has recognized it 49 except for Mississippi. I haven’t found a reason why they haven’t though.
Thank you so much Nicholas. I had in fact considered mentioning the large number of recognitions in US state assemblies and in other assemblies around the world. It is indeed an absolutely fascinating aspect of international relations. (I actually wrote about this in one of my books.) Unfortunately, I had to cut it out. But you make a great point. And I have no idea why Mississippi is the lone hold out. Hopefully, the power of TH-cam will bring this to the attention of someone who might be able to answer it!
I found. İt's lie
@@umitsanl3409 Kendini o kadar iyi açıkladın ki okuyan herkesin düşüncesini değiştirdin. Bravo
hocalı soykrımınıda tansın abd ve vietnam ve ırakta kendi yaptığı soykırmlarıda
Talat Pasha gave the order for deportation of Armenians. According his indisputable figures, as recorded by Talat Pasha himself, the number Armenians subjected to deportations was 924,158 (see Murat Bardakci: Talat Paşa'nın evrakı metrukesi). Considering several hundred thousand Armenians subjected to deportations subsequently settled in Lebanon, France, South America, Armenia and the rest of the world it astounding how the figure of 1.5 million is pronounced and accepted.
Eastern Anatolia was Armenian lands since 3000 BC. Mongols, turks selcuks, tatars came with burning, killing, raping the indigenous Armenians. At the time, theres were more chrches in Van Mush Sasoon Ardahan Erzrum Trabzon than mosques in Eastern Anatolia. Armenians wanted liberation from ottomans just like any others.
Its amazing that you still cant figure out that the turks have killed 1.5 million armenians with such a bloody history that turkey has
They are trying to Put us into shame. They hate turkiye
@@celikciogluemrecan378 People can like Turkiye, but not like some of the things it has done.
There are several flaws in this kind of reasoning. First of all, those 900,000+ are only the ones that were officially deported, meaning there could be several thousand other who had been killed before the deportations already, as history shows that there were multiple events of mass killings of the Armenian citizens in the Ottoman empire. Hence it seems quite accurate, in my opinion.
Thanks for the video. I liked it.
Thanks so much!
Excellent video Prof!! An important human rights issue, no doubt.
Thank you. It is indeed. And a valuable example of how countries don’t come to terms with their past.
Good video James!
Thank you very much!
@@JamesKerLindsay can you do a video on the recent Slovenia PM Balkan redrawing map? What are your thoughts etc
I might do something on it. In the meantime, here are some of my thoughts that I gave to the BBC on the issue www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57251677
Great video and interesting as always, somehow you always manage to make pieces that seem to keep everyone at bay when others cant. 1:31 Johnny was always a small man wanting a smaller world
I do not know if this is a topic for this channel. But one thing i find interesting is the idea of scandinanism, in scandinavia during the 1800's. It is for example the reason why we in sweden do not mention our country in our national anthem, because the song was about the idea of an united north.
Thanks for the research & presentation James. Can you pls look at the pros & cons of the British Empire. Some of the atrocities commited in India for instance or even Kenya with the Mau Mau tribe would be illuminating.
Thank you so much. Yes, I really should look into Kenya and the Mau Mau. This has been a major issue here in the UK over the years.
Great video as always! Next year I am writing my bachelor thesis about recognition of armenian genocide. Is there any chance you could recommned any sources you used besides those in description? Love your videos and greetings from Slovakia.
Hi Alex, there are a lot of books out there. Look for ones published by reputable publishers, such as major university presses (Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc.) or well by well established academic presses (Routledge, Palgrave). IB Taurus and Hurst might also have some books. A well-respected Turkish scholar who has written on this is Taner Akcam.
it's never been approved by any court rather thn politic games and gains for some powers so how could you call it a genocide??? Genocide claims based on what!
Read English American Historian Bernard Lewis’s book “The Emergence of Modern Turkey (Studies in Middle Eastern History)”
All recognitions are done by political bodies and political reasons. Term genocide was use so loosely, when it comes to Armenian issue, then all the countries committed genocide in every war they were in.
1992 de hocalıda ermenilerin soykrımı tanıyormusunuz???yadan yunanların batı anadoluda yaptığı soykrımı
Hello sir,I wanted to know a topic,Bangladesh government claim that in 1971 Pakistani millitery killed 3 million Bangladeshi people.Is it true or just a conspiracy? Is there any valid evidence /prove or any documents where we can find the correct numbers?I hope you will make a vedio on this topic because the numbers are still mistirious for both Pakistan and Bangladesh.
Your PM imran Khan himself had said before becoming the Prime Minister that Pakistan army had massacred 3 million Bangladeshis. That claim BTW is not just by Bangladeshis, but India, Russia and most of the world do as well. Your Pakistani army called them " ye kaale Bangali", your AAK Niazi and yahaya Khan had claimed that " Hum in Bangaliyon kin nasal badal denge". Further more your army raped 400,000 Bangladeshi women, they are today referred to as " Bairongonas". You can google this, you can see all media archives of 1971 BBC, CNN and other news.
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DScMollcmAe4&ved=2ahUKEwi7t8SjoLr0AhUeslYBHYhkAZ8Qxa8BegQIBhAF&usg=AOvVaw3_YX3sHBzXxSl_y2Y4bV3a
Congrats on 20k! Your channel is groeing so damn fast
Thank you so much. I’m obviously delighted that so many people find the channel interesting or useful. As an academic, I’m used to speaking to 20-30 people (usually on a cold and wet Tuesday evening somewhere), so audiences of 2,000-3,000, let alone 20,000-30,000, are really unbelievable! :-)
Thanks for the video, very interesting as always. It was interesting to note that the issue is not over reparations in case Turkey acknowledges the genocide. In that case, I am curious as to why the modern Turkish Republic is reluctant considering the atrocity was committed by the Empire that the modern state fought against during the Turkish War of Independence.
The simple fact is there is no evidence. You cannot force the acquisition of genocide down someone's throats devoid of evidence. Turkey has agreed to establish an international commission of historians to look into the matter. Why does Armenia if they are so confident of their claim refuse the commission?
@@thetraveller1612 Check out this then.
www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resistance/en/document/extermination-ottoman-armenians-young-turk-regime-1915-1916.html
The timeline has sources linked to it for you to research. Many of these authors are historians. Where is the evidence of your claim? and does it come from a non-Turkish source? The Turkish government has a high control over the media so I don’t believe a Turkish source would be unbiased.
@@connor4955 yes evidence from non Turkish sources. If there is evidence either way then let international historians assess and conclude once and for all. This is the only way forward on the matter.
Tribalism they just hate Armenia because of tradition.
It does become a problem when you want to reinstitute a neo ottoman empire. Not to mention it's not the only genocide Turks have carried out AND they are still actively persecuting ethnic and religious groups in their country to this day.
The fact that the history keeps repeating itself is sad in this regard 😢. Why are humans are so evel. I mean you exterminate thousands of people for the sake of your empire yet empires still collapse. So clearly its not the solution, and most importantly inhumane. Why? We will never know.
Dear Prof. have you made a video about the difficult relation between South Korea and Japan (including issues such as the "comfort women" and the Yakusuni Shrine)? Two countries that I would expect to be closed allies. I worked for both Mitsubishi Motors and Hyundai and executives from both companies couldn't be in the same room!!!
Thanks so much Jorge. Great suggestion. I’ve wanted to look at Korea for a while. But this is a really interesting angle to explore. I’ve marked it down.
Nice video James but I believe it could have been a positive addition talking about where Armenians were settled and about Wilsonian Armenia to understand better the context of the genocide. Greetings!
Brilliant as always! Didn't know Turkey 'recognised' the genocide at any level.
Thanks so much. Yes, this is a little known element of the story. Many think that this is about a wholesale denial of the facts. It isn't. It is about whether the events constitute genocide in the formal meaning of the term.
@@JamesKerLindsay Turkey does not recognise it as a genocide period. Don't sell wrong information as propoganda Turkey describe civilian killings as "mukatele" which means mutual revenge killings by irregulars. British Goverment investigated and found zero evidence regarding intend of genocide. Ottoman goverment even hanged officilas for poor supervision during the mass deportation. You have conveniently don't mention Bernard Lewis a British! historian and you are basicly doing a pro genoice propoganda. th-cam.com/video/U0SDHOiY7vQ/w-d-xo.html watch and maybe learn something. You have also don't mention how many Muslim Turk and Kurds died in the hand of Armenian Gangs.
@@metesever6546 Did you actually watch the video? I discuss the main arguments and perspectives. And I think I fairly outlined the Turkish stance, although I think its position is ultimately self-defeating.
@@JamesKerLindsay How countries deal with their past increasingly important? Are you that naive? What is AUKUS? Why is India is in it ? Who colonized India? Why Turkey is in NATO? Russia, France, US was already supporting the armenian rebellion, so if there is some self defeating it is the trying to convince the judges who calls for ur head..
@@JamesKerLindsay It's clear that you made that video with a biased perspective. You take sides. If it was different, I would definitely get surprised. Because, Turks are the "constituent Other" of the Christian Europe. Turks have been demonized and dehumanized in European religious, historical, and literary narratives throughout history. Your minds are already shaped firmly, like cast iron.
A little unrelated, but I am surprised that you used the term Arabian Gulf instead of Persian Gulf, similar to how Arabian governments would refer to it. Is that how it is usually called in Britain?
Thanks. Both terms can be used. But in this case, it was actually accidental. I meant to say Arabian Peninsula. 🤭
@@JamesKerLindsay Ahh I see, thanks as I was curious!
In the video, you mention that the decision for an explict intention of killing order, is not necessary for being charged by such political term as genocide. On the other hand, In the hitler example or any other colonial power abusing over african or american continent, there is always a explict order for such action. But there is also documents in the archives that ottoman empire punished more than a 1000 military member to harm Ermenians on the road. There is a failure state and civil war. The emigration policy is known since Ottoman's ancient times not only minorities also against Turkish tribes. Instead of an action, genocide is a result of fascist( radical-modern) mindset and the hitler was the top of the mentality. An empire can't have any benefit to kill its components.
James why don't you make a video about the recognition of the Genocide that Germany commited in Namibia? (by the German Government)
Thanks. I am thinking about it. The thing is that I have actually recently prepared a script on Namibia for my origins of countries series. (Not many people realise it, but its path to independence is actually one of the most important in the modern era!) I do mention it in that. But I don’t necessarily want to focus too much on historical cases. As you saw, even in this video the focus was firmly on the international relations aspects of the issue, rather than a detailed account of 1915. I would really want to have a very contemporary hook to the video. Finally, as you might imagine, I don’t really like doing these type of videos as they attract the very worst types of trolls - genocide deniers! My topics are grim enough without having to get into that territory too often. I’m sure you understand.
Yet ANOTHER great video James! Keep up the good work! I LOVED that you stayed neutral. I got my friend to say hi btw. I looked at a map about the recognition of the event and Turkey AND Azerbaijan deny that the event happened. Why does Azerbaijan deny the event happened? Is it because both are sort of allies? Anyway keep up the good work. I had another idea for one of your independence videos. You should talk about how Mongolia gained independence. And how Taiwan (ROC) still kind of does not recognize it's independence! It's a very interesting story actually.
Azerbaijan also refuses as even Armenian capital Yerevan had 40% Azerbaijani population who got ''peacefully'' disappeared while Armenians were genocided!! Turkey doesn't say there weren't atrocities rather Turkey says Armenians revolted against the empire and started to target not only Ottoman forces also Muslim civilians so Ottoman acted to end their rebellion so it wasn't planned nor deliberate act of genocide. For example here are some very known atrocities and genocides for comparison:
German civilians who were killed during Holocaust? Zero.
Russian civilians who were killed during Circassian or Crimean genocides? Zero.
Japanese civilians who were killed during ''war crimes'' in China? Zero.
Belgian civilians who were killed during Congolese genocide? Zero.
Spanish civilians who were killed during Aztec genoice? Zero.
British civilians who were killed during 1857 rebellion of India? Few hundred.
American civilians who were killed during Native American genocide? Few thousand.
Turkish civilians who were killed during ''Armenian genocide''?? HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS...
This alone shows how insanely the subject is politicized, in fact often Turkish casualties are completely ignored or worse even called ''Armenian resistance'' like it was women and children were targeting them so they got killed!!! Then how Russian empire invaded entire eastern Turkey in 1914 and encouraged Armenians to revolt is often ignored so they could claim Ottoman targeted ''peaceful'' and ''harmless'' people while in reality they revolted a year before their deportation.
''Armenian genocide'' is only an example of wicked politics, nothing else and Turkey will not recognize anything until Turkish/Muslim casualties are recognized from Balkans to Anatolia from Crimea to Caucasus but im pretty sure Crimean genocide will remain as ''Crimean deportation'' even if it was much worse than so called Armenian genocide...
Thanks as ever, LE. Azerbaijan's position his shaped by its extremely close relationship with Turkey, as seen last year by Turkey's direct assistance in its military campaign to retake Nagorno-Karabakh.
I must indeed take a look at Mongolia. It is fascinating case.
And I hope I replied to your friend. It is getting increasingly difficult to respond to every comment, although I try my best with as many as I can. If not, do pass on my apologies.
@@JamesKerLindsay I wonder since when selling weapons or sharing intelligence is ''direct assistance'' due in that case US and Russia had ''direct assistance'' in every single war on Earth in last 75 years!! Instead of such false claims from media nonsense you should have used ''Turkey supported Azerbaijan'' which is completely true, Azerbaijanis aren't only Turkic people rather they are also descendance of Oghuz Turks same as Anatolian Turks which is why Turkish and Azerbaijani are very close languages and easily understandable by both nations. (Imagine it like Australian and British English) And Turkey didn't start supporting Azerbaijanis today rather even Ottoman always tried to support them and keep them away from Russian occupation. For example even if everybody knew WW1 was lost Ottoman still sent an army into Azerbaijan in 1918 and cleared entente forces from Caucaus which is why all Caucasus countries could declare their independence from Russian empire in 1918!! Russian forces returned to Caucasus in 1920 but back then the civil war was still ongoing and they couldn't risk another war against Turkey so they recognized the independence of all Caucasus countries, then signed treaty of Kars with them in 1921 which ceded both Nagorno-karabakh and Nakhchivan to Azerbaijan not in Stalin era like some ''journalists'' are claiming!! So in short being neutral while completely ignoring other side of the coin isn't something possible and even a child can read from guardian, bbc etc rather than searching and reaching some true information...
@@ggoddkkiller1342 I’m really not sure what your point is!? I was asked a question. I answered. It seems that the word ‘direct’ seems to have triggered something. Care to talk about it calmly? (And I understand these issues very well. I’ve actually been working on Turkey for 30 years!)
@@JamesKerLindsay Even if you are a native speaker of English you don't know ''direct assistance'' would imply Turkish involvement to the war while in reality it isn't proven at all?? Perhaps you've been working on Turkey for 30 years while working for guardian or bbc due you have a very similar language even using a lot of open-ended statements like them which could imply anything while also refusable in case of proven false!! Such as one of your statements was same in the video that ''Even if Ottoman didn't order it's soldiers to kill civilians they knew people would die under these conditions so it was a genocide'' which looks a reasonable statement but again very open-ended. For example British empire kept importing/collecting food out of both Ireland and Bengal while millions of people were dying because of the famines. And without any question they knew if they still collected food more people would die so according to your own logic British empire committed genocides in both Ireland and Bengal??? Ofc not, you are talking military actions not collecting food while there were famines and people were dying because of ''natural causes''!! If you seriously think you are even slightly neutral rather im aggressive perhaps you are too BBCed to see straight due i couldn't care less what the heck you are saying in your videos nor thinking about Turkey rather im only trying to make you see the wicked hypocrisy that you are also a part of...
Another fascinating topic. It is amazing that the issue still provokes such emotions from the successor state to the ottoman empire so many years later. Surely it would have been easy enough to place the blame on the Young Turk/Ottoman government and distance the Republic of Turkey from culpability? Do you think a Turkish/Armenian rapprochement is possible or will it always be prevented by the nagorno-karabakh/artsakh conflict and the issue of the 1915 genocide?
Thanks. I agree fully. Turkey would have been better to put this down to the Ottoman Empire, recognised it and moved on. As I say, with every passing year it makes it more difficult to back down and, in prevailing circumstances where countries now recognise atrocities, is doing more and more harm to its reputation. As for rapprochement, that would probably be difficult to see at the moment given Nagorno-Karabakh.
@@JamesKerLindsay It's a real pity for Armenia that they remain stuck in a situation where they have such poor relations with neighbours and a dependency on Moscow alone.
🇦🇲🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🌎✊️✊️✊️
Turkey should be ashamed of themselves not only for denying the Armenian genocide but also for oppressing it’s Kurdish population
@@2waffle758 if anything Turks are responsible for all the horrible things that happened in Bosnia since the end of the 18th century 1st they gave Serbia and montenegro independence but denied it for Bosnia in the end it was annexed by Austria Hungary thx to the Turks then after WW1 because the Turks didn’t grant it independence it almost disappeared when it was absorbed into the 1st Yugoslavia where it was almost divided by Croatia within the first Yugoslavia and Serbia thankfully after WW2 Tito made sure to restore historical borders in the Balkans and saved Bosnia from extinction so what did the Turks do again?
In Ayintab modern Gaziantep in 1920-21, local 30k Armenians out of 80k population were shouting "Ya Ermenistan ya mezaristan / Armenia or land of graves". It seems Turks forgot to kill them in 1915?!?
Good video. What happened to the Christians of Anatolia during the late days of the Ottoman Empire, was ethnic cleansing. It was a state policy to get rid of them especially after the balkan wars.
Thank you. I agree. It would certainly amount to ethnic cleansing. But I think it is the way that this ethnic cleansing was conducted that creates the argument for genocide. Had the deportations been carried out in a way that tried to preserve human life it would have been appalling, but it wouldn’t have been genocide. It was forcing people to walk into the desert without adequate food, water or medical attention that has led most observers to argue that it constitutes genocide. (Edited for spelling.)
@@JamesKerLindsay If it were ethnic cleansing none of them would left alive. The response was not national. Many Christian families living in the West were protected. Those families are still alive and keeping their names in Turkey today. There are still Armenian schools in Turkey that preserve the language since half a Millenium. I really don't understand how warped the Western perception on this issue is..
There was not a unified, omnipotent response, or a decree, by the state, to exterminate the Armenians. The response to their alliance with the invading forces(Russian, British) were local, and the people that responded the most were the ones that suffered the most from their newly formed alliances. The populous had been driven, killed by Armenian, British and Russian forces.
We have to be grateful for the Russians though, it was them during their revolution that unravelled the sykes picot hotline, all the messages, and the real thoughts and perceptions about the minorities that are used as pawns by the powers that be.
But alas, good attempt to revisionise. Looks professional enough=).
@@JamesKerLindsay
I think, the main reason behind the so-called denial is hypocrisy, which can easily be seen here!
Two events are mentioned above. In the former one, 1,5 million muslims were deported to Anatolia and around half of them died because of the committed atrocities, diseaaes, hunger and cold. This is called 1st Balkan War. In the later, 1,5 million Armenians were deported and a (million?) disputed amount of which died because of the same kind of atrocities, diseases and hunger. This is called "genocide or ethnic cleansing of the christian community in Anatolia".
Dear Prof Ker-Lindsay, why don't you prepare a video about ethnic cleansing of the muslim population in the 1st Balkan War and if this may also be an act of genocide?
@@JamesKerLindsay Bernard Lewis denied the Armenian genocide. He argued that the deaths of the mass killings resulted from a struggle between two nationalistic movements, claiming that there is no proof of intent by the Ottoman government to exterminate the Armenian nation
@@JamesKerLindsay
It preserved human lifes. We dont know how many died. 600.000 is a very exaggerated number let alone 1.5 million. Where do you think the diaspora come from ?
Amazing video, really eyes opening. I think I am changing my point my point of view on the matter now.
Thank you. It would be interesting to hear how it changed your views.
@@JamesKerLindsay well, I saw this through the prism of mass media, either European ones (like Euronews) , the Israeli ones (though Israel does not recognize the Armenian genocide for political reasons, I think, the majority of Israelis do), or even Russian ones (I am fluent in Russian, but usually skeptical regarding their news). From all that, I took the Armenian genocide as an undebatale fact. Now, I have my doubts.
Well Belgium killed 10 million people but did not said any offical apology ...
In fact, Belgium has openly acknowledged its wrongdoings. There is also a much more open national conversation about the wrongs of its actions in Africa. www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53232105 I still don’t see such a conversation in Turkey.
@@JamesKerLindsay Turkey is extremely annoyed by some countries using it as a blackmail against Turkey or using it as a propaganda tool against Turkey. Amd in fact Turkey wantted to discuss this issue with Armenia in international court however Armenia refused ( but accoding to the UN genocide convention one needs a declaration from the international court to legally recognize it. Othercise it stay as a claims and insult.) Later Turkey offered to form research commision but it is unanswered still. Belgium recognized but did not apologised.
@@JamesKerLindsay It even got out of control and became some nations pride and it is even used by Armenian diaspora to prevent assimilation within countries. There are so many disinformation made by them.
@@JamesKerLindsay killing 10 million people is "wrongdoings", relocating a part of your population because they joined arms with another country to attack you and your civillians is genocide. how very neutral of you.
The question of how countries respond to historic atrocities has become increasingly significant.
Yes i see, but i dont know where that path leads anymore
Isn't it crazy how in Germany you can go to jail for denying to Holocaust but in Turkey the same can happen to you for not denying the Armenian genocide.
4:13 -Wonder why United nation definition of ethnic cleansing doesn't apply on Israel 🤔!
As an Aramean whose grand grand father was killed in the genocide, I am really happy that the US has finally recognized this brutal massacre
I am glad for your grandfather, I am a Turk from Kars. Who knows, maybe my grandfather killed your dishonest grandfather.
Dude ur country has a talent in manuplation.Your goverment does not tell the truth and your coubtry don’t know 20 years old massacre but you remember 100+ years events.It’s so weird…
Very interesting topic, indeed.
Thank you.
The Greek national anthem is the first two stanzas of a long poem of 158 stanzas by Dionysios Solomos in 1823. See the Turkish hostility in some lines of this poem below. The sequel contains the same hostility. It tells the story of the massacre of 30 thousand Turks by the Greeks in the Corinth peninsula in 1821.
Lyrics of the Greek National Anthem: Deep ocean, that's how I wish you were humming. And drown in its wave, every Turkish seed. Why did he slow down into combat for a moment? Why has the blood spilled decreased? Both helmets and swords To scattered brains, To the skulls torn apart, It's smeared with squirming internal organs the dogs were running low And they were shouting God, God! But the lips of the Christians were more true They were shouting fire! They were fighting like lions. Always fire! they were shouting. And the scumbags were dying, Shout out to God. Their dirty blood has become a river Flowing in the plain Innocent herbs instead of water drinking blood The bravest were shaken with blind steps They were expelled from Corinth. They hid and fled. Death sends its angel, Filled with famine and disease, Skeleton-like shapes They walk side by side.
Not as many as the 50,000 Greeks killed in chios
This incident happened in 1822 to the army of Dramali Pasa i repeat ARMY
The hall army 🪖 was 30000 and the dead in that battle was about 4000 many others died from diseases, or different directions an survived
In Tripoli yes died 30000 Turks , was a mistake yes , a slaughter yes was
In Island of Chios ,i was as a soldier there, 60000 dead in ,Cassos , Messologi
Ibrahim pasa was landing in Peloponnese in1825 and until 1827 acting like the Nazi , burned the villages , cut all the trees killing the animals, even cat 🐈 and dogs 🐕
The Greeks before 1821 made some failed uprisings , the answer
slaughters , the hate pass from generation to generation
Learn history first and then send comments...
Hi James, can you also make a video about the genocide of Namibian People by German and the recent apology from the Germany government and the announcement of $1.3B compensation to genocide survivors of Namibia by the German.
Thank you. Great suggestion. I was thinking about it (and you’ll see I refer to it in this video). Ironically, I wrote a script on Namibia just a few weeks ago for my origins of country series. It is a fascinating country, with a remarkably important history, and yet it is almost completely unknown. Anyway, let me have a think about it. I actually find videos on these topics very hard going, for obvious reasons.
A video on Namibia genocide will be good too
Thank you. Great suggestion. A few others have mentioned this. I actually have. script on Namibia, but on its broader history. It is a fascinating country, with a far more interesting history than many people realise.
@@JamesKerLindsay welcome
I think this video came in very timely in a way that it coincided with what has been going on in Gaza (and West Bank on a smaller scale).. Based on the criteria for a genocide and the framework you provide in this video, would you suggest that what Israel, as represented by the Netanyahu government, constitutes a genocide? Say, in an international court of justice, had your professional opinion been requested, what would your assessment be?
The independence of Norway in 1905 and the Norwegian referendum of independence could be interesting with the threat of war after the independence and how the rest of the world reacted.
Another truly excellent suggestion! Thank you.
I feel like the wide span of what is genocide is important. When I think of it I tend to think of things like Rwanda or the Holocaust as in the systematic killing of groups. I feel like that that idea and view is so powerful that in many minds that is what is seen as genocide so when things like transferring people or groups across harsh areas or separating people or cultures happen it doesn’t pop into the mind as genocide. And I think those events are important but the specific focus on and implementing of such as genocide makes it more difficult in the public sense
Thank you so much. You are completely right. As I also explained in my video on Xinjiang, there is a widespread belief Genocide only refers to directly ordered mass killing. That is not the case. That is the most directly obvious form of genocide, but it far from the totality if the term. Genocide is about trying to deliberately eradicate a group or a part of that group,
@@JamesKerLindsay Can you please also make a video about what happened after their deportation? The revenge movement Armenians started which resulted in killings of more than 1 million Turkish and Kurdish civilians. Because if we are going to talk about this issue, we have to talk about what happened before the events and what happened after the events as well. There are many mass graves in Turkey which have Turkish and Kurdish peoples' bones. So if we were to call a deportation a genocide, then shouldn't we also talk about direct killings of Turks and Kurds and call it a genocide? And I know for a fact that Ottoman Empire commissioned many guards to protect Armenians while they were being deported, which we saw in a photograph as well that you put on your video. What pisses me of is that the Ottomans had to fight in many fronts which caused lack of supplies and lack of men as well, so understandably they couldn't provide Armenians with a lot of supplies nor men(guards). People do not hesitate to call it a genocide, but nobody talks about how Armenians directly killed my people which were unarmed, and basically got away with it. What I believe is that this matter has become more of a pressure tool rather than the recognition of the tragic events that occurred. I feel sorry for every single civilian who lost their lives whether they were Armenian, Turkish, or Kurdish; but I'm against calling these events a genocide only to humiliate us and demand lands from us.
@@bugrayuksel3502 That is mostly part of your mythology. Armenians simply put did not have the numbers or the military power, especially during the period when they were being killed and deported to conduct any form of mass killing against anyone. Localized small scale war crimes as reprisals? Yes. Killing over 1 million Turkish civilians? Probably in a fantasy book.
"And I know for a fact that Ottoman Empire commissioned many guards to protect Armenians"
The same guards that were escorting them to their doom? So helpful were those guards that they allowed Kurdish and Turkish irregular troops to periodically attack the Armenians being deported and massacre them.
There was never any intention by the Turkish government to supply the Armenian people being deported. In fact the location chosen for the location was strategically chosen to liquidate those deported. The parts of Syria where the surviving Armenians were sent was a dessert, with little fertile land to grow crops, livestock, little water to fish. The intention was clear to send them to an inhospitable place and they will die by themselves due to starvation, dehydration or by prey to Kurdish nomadic raids.
Trying to invent some fantastical mass-murders that reportedly Armenians perpetrated is something that has been already debunked by Turkish professors such as Taner Akcam. You can be against calling it a genocide. Same Nazis are against calling the Holocaust a genocide. But we have a moral duty to recognize it as such. While our governments may not, we, the average folk should an will.
What about the Hawaiian genocide? Even as a member of the Family of Nations having treaties of friendship with numerous countries, Hawaii has been ignored by the international community and the unprovoked Hawaiian genocide has yet to be recognized. It's no surprise that genocide during war is excusable when a peaceful and friendly People can face near extinction without any acknowledgement by countries that claim genocide with respect to their own Peoples.
I mean didn't president Bill Clinton apologize to what us did to Hawaii in 1990 or something
@@axel665 Congress apologized only to aboriginal Hawaiians and their descendants but neglected to apologize to any other Hawaiian nationals, whether native or naturalized. Also the apology did not mention or acknowledge that the United States committed genocide.
@@soundmind9772 Hawaian genocide, rarely known topic. Thx for info! Hi from Serbia!
@@hopeindarktimes9535 Mahalo and aloha to Serbia from Hawaii!
@@hopeindarktimes9535 fyi, the Hawaiian Kingdom has a treaty with 'Servia' concluded in Lisbon, the 21st of March, 1885 (universal postal union)
Mr.james are you can add Turkish lang. ?
Similar incidents happened with Crimean Tatars and Koreans during the Soviet times. Do they qualify as genocide too?
Tatars and Koreans do not have a powerful diaspora in the West. So does this mean whoever pushes harder will get what they want without adequate process?
Wow, a surprise video. No announcement whatsoever.
Sorry. I usually do put up an announcement. However, I was caught up trying to finish it amongst a whole range of other things.
@@JamesKerLindsay That's fine. Perhaps a surprise video or two are okay.
Hi Professor, It is unfortunate that you did not detail on how Armenians were discriminated against and massacred over many years long before the 1915 Genocide, including for example the Adana Massacre of 1909 and the murder of around 20,000 people under Saltan Abdul Hamid, all this ill treatment over the years pushed Armenians for ways to seek better treatment, more rights and freedom.
You were talking about the Hamidian Massacres (1894 -- 1896). You left off a zero: 200,000 Armenian perished in the Hamidan Massacres, not 20,000 (probably a typo error).
Why dont you read a book written by the first president of armenia telling they were hyped up by russians😂
I'm confused about 1 thing. There were only deportations, no shootings?
No. There were executions along the way. And the key point here is not that there was mass murder, directly. The argument is that if you force hundreds of thousands of men, women and children to walk hundreds of miles into a desert with inadequate food, water, shelter and medical attention what do you expect will happen to them? This is the basis of the genocide argument. We now think of genocide in terms of the Holocaust. But it is wider than industrialised killing. It incorporates deliberate attempts to secure the destructions of a group, in whole and in part. This clearly qualifies.
@@JamesKerLindsay thanks for your answer 👍I understood the point that the deportations constitute genocide since it was highly unlikely the déportées would survive. It's just that I thought there were mass murders in addition to the deportations. Thanks so much for clarifying what happened 👍👍
Glad it helped to clarify things. It is an incredibly important debate. Even today we see arguments that something can’t constitute genocide unless it involves direct mass killing.
@@JamesKerLindsay Also,people were pushed in the sea,they tried to swim to the ships (French, English, e.t.c.).....some drown,some made it to the ships, but they were not permitted on,and they drowned too,,,,,plus,the town of Smyrna (Izmir )was in fire behind them....some just sqwized to death,stumped ,children were lost,,,,,,,many soldiers left behind imprisoned, died from hunger, sicknes, lice,and scabs.......Paradise on earth. .....
@@Irene-iu9sj evidence? by not from a biased historian
The idea of apologizing for the past is in itself a political issue at it’s heart, as doing so can be bad for national morale and unity. It can help a victimized group unify with the country, however it can also serve as a stamp of approval for such a group to continue to cast dissent. It it worth spurning the majority, who generally feel self-righteous about their own, their father’s, their grandfather’s, or their ancestors atrocities? After all, it is simply human nature to believe one’s family or group is in the right. Even when there is an absolute necessity for apologizing, doing so in too intense a manner or for too long after the events can still produce this negative affect, leading to intense political polarization today based on events that happened decades of centuries ago. See Germany in the last decade for an example of this, or America in the last 7-8 years. Both are now re-fighting old civil conflicts in modern politics because of this…
Edit: and of course the 1915-21 events were a genocide, but I’m Christian and not I’m Turkish so therefore I have no reasons to justify it, though at the same time I’m not going to overplay it, as all countries commit atrocities and war crimes, basically all human settlement and wars involving such.
The exception on calling this out, and it shouldn’t be because it’s hypocritical, but I’m guilty of doing it as well, is when the clash is ideological, such as the Soviets or Chinese calling out America’s atrocities as an example of the evils of Classical imperialism, and likewise America calling out the evils of the Soviet Union and (this is obviously the one I’m guilty of) Communist China as demonstrating the evils of political Socialism.
Thanks as ever. I can see the argument for national unity. But that also says a lot about a country as well. In this case, it is not much of an issue as the Armenian community is not that large any moire, and certainly won't be galvanised by this. More generally, I think that states must be evolve to evolve and reflect changing circumstances. This is the PR problem Turkey now faces. In a world where many countries are facing up to their past, and especially countries that Turkey regards as close allies, its own position looks increasingly bad. That's why I noted that even from a purely pragmatic point of view (leaving aside the morality of this issue for a moment, if one can or should) there is an argument to accept what happened and move on as a matter of effective foreign policy. Not only will it smooth relations with partners, it increases Turkey's moral grounds to then condemn atrocities against Muslims, thus bolstering Erdogan's position as a leader in the Islamic world. He would be so much stronger speaking out once he has addressed the genocide argument.
@@JamesKerLindsay true I meant in general, but for sure in turkey’s specifically case it has nothing really to lose by accepting responsibility in terms of bolstering Turkish Armenians, however regardless of the lack of Armenians left in Turkey it still could create a divide within the Turkish population over the issue of national pride. There is a great danger in deconstructing national myths that you could deconstruct the nation with it.
Sir why don't you cover of Balochistan conflict ?
Thank you. Great suggestion. I have wanted to look at this for a while.
Dear James I must admit that hearing you call the Persian gulf Arabian was kind of shocking..
What's funny is that the map you sjow right after calls it Persian.
Its real name is KENGER if you are so interested...
more of it is arab than persian maybe it should be called arab.
@@Samirustem that's not exactly how it works.
But the point here is that a person who makes such videos should know better.
There is only one internationally recognized name for that body of water just like there is only one for the arabian sea or the Indian ocean or the ionian sea between Greece and Italy.
@@nikolasmacedonites917 that was a joke. but seriously though names change languages change too dont take it very serious
A nice analysis. Given that you mentioned the Syriacs, however, I think that the Pontic Greeks should also have been mentioned. A grim story.
Thank William. I thought to also mention it, but it was a little removed from the key events being described. As ever, it’s always a balancing act. But I do plan to return to the broader subject of the population exchanges in another video and will try to bring it up then as part of the background to events.
@@JamesKerLindsay I hope so.
It is sad that the genocide against the Turks by the Greeks and Armenians aren't mentioned though.
@@sleros8646 Because there was none.
@@Kalimdor199Menegroth yea that's why grandmother of mother always told the stories of burning villages and mosques around my hometown. When Greek army occupied my town in march 1921, Greek gangs turn on its neighbours, steel all the animals and gold after killing many of the people. People always had to run into forests and mountains to hide themselves. Thanks god Ataturk and its army saved my town after 80 days of occupation.
Thank you James.. I think most democratic nations will eventually accept the term genocide and it is a matter of time. Most non-Turkish historians that study the subject agree that the Ottoman government from 1915 carried out the systematic mass murder and expulsion of around 1.5 million ethnic Armenians, which meets the definition of a genocide.
source ?
No.
The Armenian Genocide is the source of the word Genocide. Raphael Lemkin based the word Genocide on the Armenian Genocide. Its like saying the Moon meets the definition of a moon.
Please look into Tahrir Law passed by the Ottoman Turkey in 1915.
'Should'? There is no place to accept this accusation because some of the parliaments decided to recognize 'historical event' results and reasons.
History is not a subjective topic, this reminds us of when Galileo was accused as a criminal because of denial of the 'flat earth' theory that is Pope/Church ruled world obligation. But the reality, the earth is a sphere, and Galileo was right.
Turkey never accepts declarations from any parlements, the country is not responsible for any abroad governing tools, local populist movements. Governments and representatives can select for one time and are changeable. So even Armenians can never trust for next parliaments won't decelerate the event is not genocide.
Also, Turkey is open to any debate with counterparts about this issue. Always has been offering 'let's open historical archives and create a working group with the help of 3rd party countries' but always refused by Armenia. Because it is a useful tool for annoying Turkey.
The honest way is creating a commission with historians, legit bureaucrats, and working together on this issue with the under international law and justice community.
Until that time come, all political declaration, any other government's views, accusations, videos, and talks are not significant.
P.S. The citizen of Turkey always sad about what happened around Balkan Wars - WW1, and sharing all pain. Both sides of people died for nothing. And only all of us gained hatred, untrust, and fear.
Additionally, the Biden administration just released a guy who killed an innocent Turkish diplomat in the USA, sent him to Armenia like a hero. This kind of clarification of guilt is making our world more untrusty and less civil. The guy is a perpetrator of a certain crime and the killer.
A good attempt at tackling this issue but you fail to mention historians are divided on the matter. Historians such as Stone & McCarthy have concluded there is no evidence that falls under the definition of genocide. Rather what we have are stories of atrocities handed down generation by generation. The British trials did not find any evidence when everything was fresh and the British had a motivation to do so.
Forced relocation in times of war (bearing in mind Christian countries had on mass invaded Turkey on all fronts to dismember the ottoman lands) does not amount to genocide (Stone). Did terrible things happen? Did the Turks take advantage and take revenge on the Armenias that sided with the Russians and killed innocent Muslims village by village? No doubt they did but does it account to genocide?
It is interesting that many of the countries that are in the genocide camp have large Armenian diaspora, the other countries are historic Turcophobes and the rest mostly Christian countries. What does this tell you? It is also somewhat odd that these same countries refuse to own up to their own genocidal behavior (US, native Indians. France, Algeria, Republic of Cyprus.Turkis Cypriots. Russia, there are loads and these are just to name a few) again mainly Christian countries.
In summary, until a commission of historians is established to ultimately conclude this matter the question of was it genocide or not will remain in doubt and until that time genocide should not be concluded.
Would should definitely not happen is for politicians to make decisions for political expediency. The saying politicians do not make good history applies here. This is not only wrong but devoid of any conclusive evidence lessons the weight of their argument.
Thanks. I was a little more cautious on this point in an earlier draft of the script. However, I think that the overwhelming majority of scholars do accept the view that the events in 1915 do constitute genocide under the terms of the Genocide Convention. Also, even the British Government concedes that the Malta tribunals were affected by serious questions about jurisdiction. I think the view now is that the trials themselves can't be used either way.
As for the question of the deportations, I agree that forced relocations cannot be considered to be genocide in themselves; although they could be considered ethnic cleansing. The problem is this case was the way in which the deportations were conducted. Expelling a people who had been identified as enemies of the state into the desert with no obvious regard for their basic human needs would, by any reasonable view, effectively amount to a policy of extermination. This is the fundamental argument.
@@JamesKerLindsay I take your point however I do not understand why the Armenians do not invite these scholars to review the evidence and accept the conclusions either way? If genocide is concluded an apology and consideration of reperations should be discussed. If the Armenian position is strong why do they avoid going down this route?
@@JamesKerLindsay
It wasnt a ''desert''. There are still Armenian communities in Syria and Lebanon.
Hmmm. I see your point but I still believe that it is a little bit one-sided. What do you think of the Armenian attacks to Turkish civilians in the late 1800s? Why did you not mention the Russian-backed Armenian forces attacking Turkish citizens before, and as soon as the WW1 was announced making use of the opportunity? Why did you not come to a conclusion on the Turkish muslim civilians that were mass murdered by the Armenians, namely in the Turkish city Van? Is that not a genocide? I repeat, is that not a genocide?
Was this so-called genocide in fact targeted without a reason after living in peace for several hundreds of years? Or was it caused by the independence movement starting in the Balkans, and the Armenians wanted to get a taste of it, backed by their older brother Russia? I wish you touched upon these points as well.
The Jewish people in Germany took no arms, the Uyghur Turks in China took no arms, the African people enslaved by European nations took no arms. Their only fault was simply to exist. Can you put this occasion in the same basket as the other examples? Don't you think that it would not be an insult to those people who suffered during those incidents? I think they would.
In Turkish history, this issue is not very significant. We have had our people killed only because of their ethnicity in the past as well. You dont believe me? Look at what the Uygur Turks are going through right now. Turks ruled the world many times in the past during the times of the Ottomans, Seljuks, Golden Horde, Gokturks etc. We have a huge, very rich history. This issue is Armenia's only source of identity and only way that they can keep their people together. That is why they hold onto it like they have nothing else. Because they have nothing else. Turkish resources estimate that we also lost over 500,000 people resulting because of Armenian attacks. WW1 was an all-out war meaning that civilians in most cases were involved in battles. Weaponized civilians by Russian forces are not civilians anymore, especially if they are capable of mass murdering others and attacking remote villages to gain land. Turkey should put more emphasis on this issue, because it is ridiculous how many publications that the Armenians do every day, and Turkey lets this issue arise even to this day.
"People were mean to us in the past so we can do and say what we want" God, you sound like such a baby. Also you clearly didn't actually watch the video.
true
The city of Van is Armenian. So are Sasoun, Mush, Ardahan, Erzrum, Trabzon...turkish history is 600 years old unlike Armenian which is 7000...so now you tell me who occupied who? EVERYTHING and ANYTHING turkish is stolen from indigenous nations. Starting from lands, language, alphabet, mosque (Haga Sophia church), food, music... that's the absolute truth...
@Oh no, 600 years? You are a small country and your culture is very small. Everything you learned is a big lie. I won't bother myself by answering you
@@noway6379 @Oh no, 600 years? You are a small country and your culture is very small. Everything you learned is a big lie. I won't bother myself by answering you
Last statement, counterproductive.
Counterproductive to what? To the current vision of the imperialists that want to enforce their version of history onto countries.
Your talk was good, however, I believe the intend was not there by the Ottoman Empire to commit this terrible act.
Another issue you did not fully go into was, the faultless imperialists (yeah right - UK, France etc.) that pressured the Ottomans into WW1, and with this war on one side, the Russians along with the Armenians on the eastern borders, the a Ottomans were overwhelmed.
What to do? Since there was a large population of Armenians, they (meaning the Ottomans along with their German superior officers) made the decision to remove Armenians outside and/or away from the battle that was happening.
The fighting that was taking place between the Ottomans and the Armenians with their Russian cousins killed over 1 million Ottomans and Armenians.
We cannot say and fault one side (Ottomans), while the other side, who were just as guilty (Armenians), and more, since they sided with the enemy and upraised against a government that was theirs for over 400 years.
We donot say their was a genocide. No.
As an Ottoman grandchild, I am terribly upset at the deaths from these years. My condolences go out to our Armenians friends. But it was not an intend to commit this act.
I could go on, but will leave it at that.
Thank you for the comment. I think the problem is that we are conditioned to understand Genocide in very narrow terms. But it is more complex and wide ranging than people realise. In this case, the intent wasn’t a direct order to kill, as with the Holocaust. It was different. It was indirect. But ones has to ask what did Talat Pasha and others think would happen if you marched hundreds of thousands of people into the desert without adequate food, water, shelter, medical assistance or protection? The end goal was obvious. It would have amounted to a death sentence for a large proportion of them. And the fact that they were being deported as enemies of the state meant that that wilful disregard fir their lives would have been intimately tied up with their identity as a group. This is why the large majority of observers now regard it as genocide. Again, it is important to take a step back and consider whether the behaviour of the administration, applied in other circumstances, would be considered genocide. I absolutely guarantee that had the victims been Turkish and the government in question Greek or Armenians, Turks would be arguing that there was a malign intent and that it was genocide.
I have been following this issue for almost thirty years as part of my work on the Eastern Mediterranean. I have seen the issue develop. I just find it disappointing that Turkey had made this about its National honour. It isn’t. And it should never have been framed as such. And I found it so interesting the way that President Erdogan brought up the Native Americans. This says so much. Not because he brought it up, but because it highlights the way that the vast majority of Americans would readily acknowledge the terrible crimes committed and would not have viewed this as a slur on the nation. So, as someone who certainly doesn’t have an axe to grind with Turkey - quite the opposite, it is a country I love and know very well - I feel that it has dug itself into a whole that sadly does not reflect well on it. I understand you may see things differently, but that’s just an outside view from a long standing observer.
As for the element about the local fighting between Armenians and Turks and Kurds, and how this relates to the genocide argument, I’ve addressed this in several other comments.
@@JamesKerLindsay you make references, but it is not very simple in this age old country that was a melting pot to many nationalists, plus, everyone had their eye on the lands of the empire. How do we break apart the empire more, and grab lands? This Was the question on many nationalists minds.
Now you mention Talat Pasa. It is not that simple to put the blame on this Ottoman pasa. Why?
Let us just examine this. Talat pasa was a member of the Young Turks movement, in Ottoman, Ittihat Ve Terraki. Now, we can write a book about this party, but will not. I will ask you, who were the creators of this party? Yes, they were Ottomans, but were 90% of all members were of the Zionist mindset.
The goal of this party was to go against the sultan, and undermine and make the empire weaker. Please do some research on this. Now you are probably saying, what has this have any barring on the Armenian fighting. Plenty.
If an Ottoman pasa, meaning Talat pasa takes orders from a group that are not Muslim, and their ultimate goal is to grab lands for themselves, why does not the western community, like you, not look at this further.
Why are you and the western community finding blame on the Ottoman Empire, when the last 10 to 15 years of the great empires years, she was assaulted, ruled, manipulated, and totally butt-fucked by the Zionists, Germans, French, Russians, UK, and Armenians. Do you want me to keep going here????
That is the issue here. The empire gave the order to March the Armenians to southern Syria. So the empire is to blame. It is not that simple.
The empire was trying to stay on her two feet while the imperialists were abusing my forefathers. Don’t you think the imperialists have the blame here as well. It’s like saying, “10 children are fighting, but just blame the black kid as he looks to be the blame, since it was his house.” It is wrong.
Every nation that was involved in war against my beloved Ottoman Empire, during WW1 needs to share the blame of the killings, both Turkish and Armenians were slaughtered.
I don’t buy it, the genocide argument.
Again my condolences to my Armenian friends, plus Muslim/Turkish families that suffered.
Your looking at one, my ancestors came out of Siirt, eastern Turkey, immigrated to Istanbul. I could go on here again, but will conclude.
Osmanli torunu. Period.
@@benoaktv On point indeed. Accept responsibility AND demand the same of others. Forgive ourselves rather than excuse ourselves.
so, Erdogan says Americans also did it. He didn't say we didn't do it! :D
The differences is America accepted and paid all Compensations. But Turkey claim nothing happened. Huge differences
@John Wim you have no idea what benefits Native Americans receive in USA. They have their own lands now and even own law. In some states even federal laws don’t apply to them. They are tax exempt as well.
@John Wim well, can’t teach common sense to a turk. So I let it stay that way too. lol
"A 'Christian genocide' framing acknowledges the historic claims of Assyrian and Greek peoples, and the movements now stirring for recognition and restitution among Greek and Assyrian diasporas. It also brings to light the quite staggering cumulative death toll among the various Christian groups targeted ... of the 1.5 million Greeks of Asia minor - Ionians, Pontians, and Cappadocians - approximately 750,000 were massacred and 750,000 exiled. Pontian deaths alone totaled 353,000."
Jones 2010, pp. 150-51: Jones, Adam (2006), Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction, Routledge.
You shameless liar, why don't you mention the genocide of Turks in Greece during the 1820 uprising? What about the Tripolitsa and Navarino massacres? What about exterminating hundreds of thousands of Turks living in the Pelopennese? Your national hero (!) Kolokotronis committed disgusting crimes against humanity. If had lived in modern times, he would have languished in prison after being brought to trial at the court in the Hague.
@Vangelis Skia, You really can't put the Armenian genocide on par with what happened to the Greeks. Because by the sheer numbers the Greeks actually slaughtered more Turks on the lands they conquered at the time than the Turks of Greeks. So if anything they'd both have to admit to it with Greece paying out more in reparations.
The Armenian genocide sticks out because it was very one sided. It's like a 1000-1 ratio.
I find it interesting when the topic of genocide comes up, people feel like it's a party they want to join. Very strange.
@@Kenan-Z "the genocide of Turks in Greece during the 1820 uprising"
"exterminating hundreds of thousands of Turks living in the Pelopennese" 😂
THE ACTUAL TRUTH:😂
This is taken from the site "turkish coalition of America":
"It is estimated that nearly 30 thousands Muslims lived in the Peloponnese in March 1821"
tc-america/turkish-history/greek-war-of-independence-and-its-toll-on-turks
But wait! Did you not write about a SUPPOSED genocide of hundreds of thousands?! 😂There is no source whatsoever that estimates the turks in Peloponnese before the Greek revolution as more than 30 thousand. Most sources speak of around 20 thousand souls. And a large percentage of those 20 thousand according to eye witness sources, sailed to Anatolia...It 's clear as crystal that you are the actual shameless liar. Better not comment about history since you don't even have the basic knowledge on the field, cause the only thing you "achieve" is to expose your cluelessness and ignorance on the subject and nothing more... And the uprising actually started in 1821 not 1820...There is probably not one sentence in your whole comment that doesn't include lies or inaccuracies which unfortunately for you and your propaganda can easily be dismantled through the actual sources....
@@Kenan-Z You are actually trying to present, a worldwide recognized genocide organized by the highest ranking turkish state officials of the time, as the same with massacres committed by a bunch of revolutionaries during the Greek war of independence?! 😂You are actually claiming that some badly organized Greek guerrillas who didn't even have a state or even a proper army, committed a genocide to the peoples of a huge empire?! Are you any serious AT ALL?! 😂
@@williamdavis9562 I simply posted a quotation by Adam Jones, a Canadian expert scholar and author of a textbook in the particular field of Genocide. Can't you see the clearly visible brackets?! Do you even know what the term "quotation" actually means?! I haven't written my own non-expert opinion nor did I provide sources by presumably biased non-reliable scholarship but by someone who is considered one of the leading experts on the field worldwide! You claim to have better knowledge on the subject than him? 😂
An idea is uttar pardesh dispute. inportant parts are. 1.First Anglo-Burmese War beacuse with the win uk now countroll the southen part of the disputed state ( 5 March 1824 - 24 February 1826).
2. northen part in tibetan controll (1355 beacuse independence from yuan) and then the conquest of qing empire, it was conquerd by china 1720.) 3. The northern extension 1914.
My ideas
an idea is to have it compared to the other unequal treaties of the century of humiliation.
Why do china claim the whole part and not only the north?
how much tibetan culture there are in the region
Thank you so much! A really great suggestion. And thanks for the ideas. I have marked it down.
Since you are neutral personality, can you do a video on Kashmir including all pre and post independence circumstances that lead to current situation.
Also, would be nice if you include all four perspectives(British, Indian, Pakistani and Kashmiri). Thank you
Please do one about the Turks and Muslims killed in surrounding ex Ottoman territories around the first world war. İn Greece, Bulgaria and Armenia. The stories of those refugees are just a valid. Death and killing committed on both sides. Denial of this prevents any reconciliation.
Very informative view of the Armenian genocide. Maybe you could do one on the Canadian genocide.
It is really to be appreciated how neutral you stay!
Thank you so much. I really feel that it is important to try to discuss these topics responsibly, especially in this day and age. I have my opinions, and strong ones, but there has to be a space for informed debate. Not always easy, but one has to try. In any case, thank you so much for your support!
Neutral he said. Wheres armenian atrocities against Turks here. Theres no neutrality here. Everytime same story small channel wants to grow brings this topic.
I would like you to enlighten more about Iraqi monarchy.
if willful disregard is only requirement for calling something genocide than we have nothing but genocide filling history. it becomes meaningless word and which genocide we get to talk about and who decides that? political interests?
Hello, I've met with your channel for a short time, and I see, you bring some arguments from different perspectives. I see that you show us the Turks's perspective also, this is very valuable for me. But I'm in a conclusion that you are making the assasinations to Turkish diplomats by Asala seem like a minor issue. As a matter of fact, there have been many unapplied terror attempts by this group, which is proven with documents. For example one of them was a plan to blow up a plane with full of Turk passengers in France, but the problem solved without any damage.
Other topic I think it is really logical that you show Turks said that Armenian historians should open documents and discuss with Turk historians on this issue. The result from this coalition could be fully trustable for the whole world.
This topic is really sensitive and controversial. However, it is not clear why it attracts attention much more than similar crimes of Europeans or other nations? I am not talking about Holocaust, where Germans were forced to admit and keep apologizing for last 80 years. Ho sincere is another question, but at least they do. No, I talk about France crimes in Algeria, what happened with indigenous population in Australia and Americas just 150 years ago, Japanese war crimes which they are reluctant to apologize for? Why Turkey is being pressed that much? Because allies were unable to fully reach their goals to erase any memory of Turks in the region or turn Turks into their puppet state?
I don't think Turkey should be blamed for genocide for Armenian, after all that was in war during the Ottoman government, this modern day Turkish Republic, all peoples in war suffer, so lets move on. Tell that too the native American, they lost all there land, and was eliminated, they don't claim Genocide. It was war, in wars bad things happens.
Uk : Famine genocide in Ireland 5 million
France : Genocide in North Africa 1.5 - 7 million
US : Native Americans genocide
Belgium : Congo genocide 10 million
Russia : Circassian genocide
James, you are really an amazing expert in this things. The knowledge you have on international affairs and countries foreign relation is on a different level.
Historically , Turkey has always had issues with many neighbouring countries, Greece, Russia, Armenia, Cypress and others but the Armenian genocide has always been obvious, with so many evidences that these genocides and atrocities had been committed against the poor Armenian by Turkish forces. As a country Turkey need to come out and apologise to the atrocities and genocide they committed against the Armenians. Turkey is also a country with a tendency to invade any country that dare attempts to cross their imaginary or geographical borders. For example the recent confrontations with Greece, Syria and the the war of words with Israel etc... They consider themselves as the regional power which is wrong and far from the truth.
Who would apologize for the hundreds of thousands of Turks (more than 500 thousand to be exact) killed by Armenians during those events, for hundreds of thousands massacred by the Greeks in Tripolitsa and Navarino massacres of 1821 and in various other massacres in Crete and the Pelopennese? Why are these victims not given the same sympathy? The answer is: because they are not Christians and the whole global media is controlled by their erstwhile enemies.
Name some of those "So many Evidences" then ?
Turkey calls Armenia to international court they refuse.
Turkey calls for internaional historians and researches do investigate matter they refuse.
Turkey open Ottoman and Turkish Archives for investigation again Armenia refuses infact Turkey offered 4 millin+20 million USD in humnetarian aid had armenia open their archives they refuse.
Turkey calls for any form of solid evidence, Armenia can't produce any.
This is bullshit and injustice towards Turks and you know it.
Hell There is no international court ruling, political consensus or academic agreement that defines the events of 1915 as genocide
Also it's simple biology and math lol
What's today armenian population 3 million in Armenia and total 11 million all over the world.
What was their fertility rate during last 100 years 1.2 to 2.1
What's their claim on death tall on events of 1915 ? 1.5 to 2 millon
So unless each and EVERY armenian family produced 36 child UNRECORDED a century straight such claims are mathematicly hell even biologically impossible.
And so there's no genocide it's nothing but a political lie in order to pressure Turkey simple as that..
So.. Quit being stupid pls.
So many wrongs have been committed the past by so many...... I think its difficult emotionally for those who have hived through these traumatising events or have family who did so and left memories for others. When we stop and contemplate the happenings.. From our perspective nowadays.. It becomes something so awful that no one from any side can contemplate it without becoming emotional and horror that we could do this to fello6 humans and it becomes easier in a way to slip to denial or bitter. Ness. When.... As diffivjj6 as it is... We need to cleanse the wounds.... Open minds and hearts and admit things that happened in the past.... That were not good or right in any way... And to apologise and work truly towards a fairer better society. And we are all in this together..... That must be acknowledged.... If we can all admit that historically we've had times when we have made actions that led to harm but we have a chance now to turn the page and work together for better quality world
I think that as long it will take a long time and a change of direction for Turkey to admit to genocide as it will for many other countries to admit to their own failures.
Thanks. I agree. I can’t see it happening soon, especially under current conditions.
The Ottomans forced the Armenians to migrate. However, they did not massacre them in a planned manner. The New Turkey is not guilty of this. For this reason, we Turks will never accept it. Regards
@@serhaneroglu5402 that's what separates a great nation like Germany from a mediocre one like turkey, their ability to acknowledge and take responsibility for the wrong doings of their past. but what should be expected from a people who still oppress their kurdish population.
@@boss_schmatze You don't know Turkey. How do you know that the Kurdish population is being oppressed in Turkey? How many Kurdish ministers are there in the council of ministers of the Republic of Turkey today? Do you know these? Of course, states fight against those who do not comply with their own laws, try to drag the people into civil war, and do not destroy the state authority. These may be Kurds, Turks or Arabs.
The Hawaiian Kingdom was the 2nd most literate country in the world, provided free education and hospital care to their subjects, and had electricity in Iolani Palace before the U.S. White House. Subjects could own land for what would be equal to merely $16/acre in the Hawaiian Kingdom.
Hawaiian was the primary language of all Hawaiian islanders until the late 19th century. In 1893, the last reigning Hawaiian monarch, Queen Lili`uokalani, was overthrown by American forces. Soon thereafter in 1896, Hawaiian was banned as the language of instruction in all schools. That prohibition was finally officially lifted NINETY YEARS LATER in 1986. The population of the once-independent Hawaiian nation was decimated as a result of the language ban and this was was certainly genocide inasmuch as it was an intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national group by deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction, in whole or in part.
When Queen's Hospital was chartered in Hawaii in 1859 it was provided that all Hawaiians, of native birth, should be treated free of charge. Foreigners were to be treated by payment of fees. U.S. law would view Queen’s Hospital’s providing health care at no charge to Natives as race based. In 1909, the government’s interest in Queen’s Hospital was severed and native Hawaiians would no longer be admitted free of charge. The new Board of Trustees changed the 1859 charter where it stated, “for the treatment of indigent sick and disabled Hawaiians” to “for the treatment of sick and disabled persons.” Gradually native Hawaiians were denied health care unless they could pay. This led to a crisis of native Hawaiian health today. Queen’s Hospital, now called Queen’s Health Systems, currently exists on the islands of O‘ahu, Molokai, and Hawai‘i. Unnecessarily and illegally imposing U.S. law on Hawaiian nationals to deny free health care was also genocide and continues to be genocide today inasmuch as it was and still is an intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national group by deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction, in whole or in part.
The United States government has issued an apology to a sub-population of Hawaiian nationals consisting of only descendants of aboriginal Hawaiians, yet the United States refuses to apologize to the remainder of Hawaiian nationals, most of which were also considered "natives" under Hawaiian law, particularly those born on Hawaiian soil.
Hawaiians have endured genocide and are indeed entitled to redress, including, but not limited to, a comprehensive formal apology to ALL Hawaiians (not only aboriginal descendants); relinquishment of national homelands as restitution; cession of additional U.S. territorial possessions, facilities, tools, technology, training, and other resources as an indemnity; pledging of additional U.S. territory as a security bond to discourage future misdeeds enforceable by the United Nations, Russia or China; freedom of travel to and from the United States, freedom to work in the United States, access to the U.S. financial and credit system, access to the U.S. educational system and financial aid as additional reparations for previous wrongs.
Furthermore, Hawaiians have the right to exact punishment by mocking the United States and its People for their past misfortunes and ineptitude, as well as by establishing friendships and commercial relations with enemies and/or competitors of the United States, while of course simultaneously maintaining a close friendship with and unconditionally forgiving the United States for its prior and present actions, its hubris, its ignobility, its willful ignorance and its deliberate treachery.
Hawaii was an absolute monarchy and benefits from it being annexed. Should Cornwall not be part of England cus it was annexed? Should Gibraltar be given to Spain?
@@williamthebonquerer9181 The benefit is irrelevant. Can children get married without the consent of their parents simply because of the benefit? No, because consent is required. Similarly, consent of the People is required of nations with respect to political union. No treaty was ever duly ratified and thus neither the American People nor the Hawaiian People consented to annexation as provided for by their lawful institutions. The principal of consent of the governed is enshrined in international law and the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America. Furthermore, the power to annex a neutral country in the absence of a treaty is a great power not mentioned in the Constitution of the United States. Thus, the purported annexation (and subsequent statehood) is an unconstitutional fraud upon the American People. Furthermore, pursuant to international law in 1898, a neutral nation could not be permanently annexed by conquest in the absence of a treaty. Such a nation is considered to be held by the right of possession and not by complete title, and is therefore entitled to be restored to its former condition.
As for Cornwall, it was lawfully annexed by conquest, being that it was never internationally recognized as a neutral State as the Hawaiian Islands were.
Gibraltar is a colony entitled to independence or to unite with Spain but only with the consent of the inhabitants of Gibraltar AND the Spanish government because the British Government is obligated by treaty with Spain as well as UN decolonization procedures. This is a unique case because the inhabitants do not want independence and Spain is under no obligation to consent to anything.
the problem is populatıon. armenian population was 1.2 million in 1914. but you claimed 1.5 million killings. you forgot more than 300.000 armenians joined russian army to kill turks in 1914. you never mentioned about armenian gang crimes. you only think turks killed because armenians were christain. the another problem is turkish soldiers are not only killed civilians but turkish and kurdish civilians or gangs killed them for revenge or money. yep there is a crime toward armenians. but not millions. 500.000 or 600.000 . ıts not like nazis killing jews
You're completely wrong. Eastern Anatolia was Armenian lands since 3000 BC. Mongols, turks selcuks, tatars came with burning, killing, raping the indigenous Armenians. At the time, theres were more chrches in Van Mush Sasoon Ardahan Erzrum Trabzon than mosques in Eastern Anatolia. Armenians wanted liberation from ottomans just like any others. Get your info together
Pretending to make a neutral comment. Good job professor.
Let's not forget Ottoman Empire starve Syrian nation and massacred Arabs in Arabian peninsula
When you have time, tell about what the Russians, Armenians, French, Greeks and British did in Anatolia during the First World War and Turkey's War of Independence. I can still see the shame of being defeated by the women, children and elders who fought to the last drop of their blood for their independence. Those who accuse us of genocide should look at their own history.
Thanks. I know that there’s more than enough blame to go round with many wars. Lots of countries have done terrible things. The problem is that Turkey denies it took place. This is an ongoing political problem. Far better to accept that something truly terrible happened and move on. Just refusing to accept it will only make it more of a powerful weapon against Turkey.
@@JamesKerLindsay Armenians klled innocent Turks and other different Minorities to increase their influence in Russian occupied territories. The real problem is that Armenians are shown as innocent. If Turkey committed genocide, the same crime applies to Armenians. Just stop blaming Turkey.
@@mym2726 That's beyond idiotic.Are bosniaks commiting genocide when they retaliated against serb yugoslavian soldiers trying to purge them? What Armenians did was a political revolution and retaliation against kurd and turkish raiders during the latter days of the Ottoman Empire,and by any means are not as brutal as the repression instituted by the Pashas
@@ihavenojawandimustscream4681 It's not the same thing and you're lying. Is it a defense tactic against the enemy that Armenians kll innocent people along with the Russians?
@@ihavenojawandimustscream4681 Despite what Armenians did, they were only expelled from Anatolia and allowed to live. If I had been the Ottoman Pasha during those war years, I would have imitated what the Armenians and Russians were doing.
Need it be said? If you want to get a genoide retroactively recognized, maybe terrorism isnt a good strategy to achieve that ... uhhhh ... yeah. I'm glad that was short-lived, but the damage to the cause is done. This has made it so much easier for Ankara and Turkish people in general to ignore this issue and deny it, because it has been forever tainted by the actions of those groups.
Refusal to recognize by turkish gov is indeed costing the republic morally, politically and economically
nope it doesnt, cause no one cares here in Turkey and in any other sane place in the world about what happened to insurgent armenians more than a century ago other than politicians, fanatics or haters.
Sorry. Listen to yourself. Those were innocent victims, including thousands of small children. Imagine their fear and distress for even one moment. Have some basic humanity!
@@JamesKerLindsay Thank you. If only it was more popular to imagine being in the shoes of another. With all the ways were use our creativity we often fail to show basic compassion by standing against abuse and treating others as we want to be treated.
In Turkey we don’t care. We will always reject fabricated lies.
Can you please do a research and a video about the atrocities committed by nationalist militias over the civilian muslim population in the Balkans between 1876-1918? This is a rare discussed topic which I believe is very important. Thanks.
Thanks so much. This is a really important and interesting topic. However, I tend to focus on more contemporary events. I think this might be better for a channel more overtly focused on history. However, I will see if there might be a good video topic on the Balkans that might be able to work this in. In the meantime, thank you again.
For a historical event to qualify as genocide, it must be legally binding.
The events between the Turks and the Armenians are tragic, but as the Armenians say, the events did not happen unilaterally.
These events were started by the Armenians and ended by the Turks.
We are not ashamed of our ancestors, we are proud of them!
proud of something you had no part in? typical pride of stupid people.
no, it was started by Turks. Turks mistreated the Armenians so they rebelled. Why should Armenians take abuses from Turks?
@@kevinyonan2147 'Turks mistreated the Armenians so they rebelled. ''When this happend actually?Armenians was loyal to Ottoman Empire .Thats why Ottoman Sultan gave the tittle for the Armenians ''Millet'i Sadıka'' that's mean loyal nation while other minotires rebellion against the Turks!
No your people decided to take part of the Turk's land and killing Turks in their own home and they did.Half of million muslim Turks was get killed by the Armenians hands.
@@kevinyonan2147 yo öyle bir şey olmadı kudur 😂
@@mehmetakifkyak2746 Peki Ermeniler bu barbar davranışı "hak edecek" ne yaptılar?
The fact that ASALA is generally peaceful after a certain time makes it acceptable. However, what Turkey did in the past, but stopped doing after a while, does not absolve it from its past. This is what we call hypocrisy and bias.
how can you explain this video: th-cam.com/video/SELkc3r__tY/w-d-xo.html
his name is Artin Penik. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artin_Penik
In my opinion, recognition = admitting. This is something Turkey 🇹🇷 will not do. If it does, it would imply that Turkey committed this genocide against the Armenians 🇦🇲.
I think this issue is very thorny and clouds the relationship between Turkey 🇹🇷 and the West 🌎.
Greetings from Germany...🍺🖐🇩🇪
Yes, we Turks will never do such thing because we know the story behind it. 5 million Turkish were either killed or deported from balkans. Nobody talks about it. Russians committed 4 different genocides recognized by the UN, belgians committed Congo Genocide , the french committed Algerian and multiple genocides in africa and Vietnam. Brits are responsible of irish and bengal genocides but noone talks about them. There is double standart here so we will go on like That.
@@enjoymfs9715 So genocide is justified by _other_ genocides?
@@DemPilafian if christians recognize their own genocides, we will do our own job too
@@enjoymfs9715 Integrity and doing what's right is conditional? You really should improve your ethics.
@@DemPilafian there is one topic that non turkish people never understand. It wasnt like one nation murders the other nation. We were in a war with Russia. And Armenians were the enemies inside us. They were murdering villages with sneaky attacks in the middle of the world war! Dont you ever understand why ottoman empire wanted to transport them? Do you guys think that is just a random decision? The government are forced to do that.
Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, cypresses, Kurds and now Syrians. I don’t understand why many counties are quiet on this subject because of their own interest and close eyes on such incidents. Thx United States to recognize the genocide. You can’t let a murderer walk away.That’s why there is prison and punishment for that.
If someone came and raided your village while you were at war with Russia, killing the child, the woman, and even the pregnant woman, and removing the baby in her womb, what would you do in such a situation? All of these events take place behind the war with Russia and the men returning to the village attack some Armenians. I draw your attention to the fact that those who carry out these attacks are not the soldiers who have been ordered by the state, they are the men living in those villages and they do not carry out an organized attack. But the Armenians, who raided and massacred those villages and cities, act in a very organized and systematic way. Even in such a situation, the state moved its Armenian citizens to another region within the country in order to prevent such incidents. The responsible soldiers who mistreated the Armenian citizens during this transport were later brought to court and punished. We feel sorry for all Ottoman citizens who lost their lives in these sad events in the region at that time. because people's right to live before their race and religion is sacred. James, I think you don't have a full grasp on this subject, and it would be better if you talk about such issues from the perspective of both communities. It hurt us Turks a lot, and if I look at it from your point of view, the massacre committed by the Greeks in the Peloponnese peninsula is exactly the same and exactly the same as the Armenian terrorists above. Read about this massacre from an English writer who was there at that time, and then let's talk to you about what genocide is. We feel sorry for the people who died in our country and in any part of the world and for any reason, and for this, the religion and race of those people do not matter. because we have a conscience. I am now asking everyone here who is not Turkish, do you feel sorry for everyone who died in these events that happened a hundred years ago, or do you only feel sorry for your own kinsmen and religious brothers? Or do you feel sorry for the Turks who died in the Turkish massacre that took place about 200 centuries ago in the Peloponnese peninsula, which is within the borders of Greece today? Or do you think that the people who died there were Turks, and are you happy inside? I ask these questions to your conscience and answer yourself, do you feel sorry for all the people who died during those events or are you just clinging to this issue because of racial hatred? And we Turks do not hate them, despite all the sad events that happened with the Armenians in the past, because we have never committed genocide in our history and therefore we have full confidence and self-confidence.
Classic Turk response
@@Cam-ye5qg Yes, it's classic for you, but for us it's our stance on real events. Because your view on this issue is racial and we do not look at this issue as racially as you do. Indeed, if you, like us, look at the subject on the basis of human life, come and say that you are sorry for all the Muslims - Christians, Turks - Armenians who died there. Let's talk about why those events turned into such a great tragedy. Let's talk about why the Ottoman state officials were insufficient to prevent these events. Let's empathize to understand each other. I don't think you can do that, because you're looking at the issue on a racial basis and passing your anger on to your children from generation to generation. As long as you look at it that way, we don't care.
I doubt resovle will come anytime soon and imagine that the armenian genocide was only 1 of the 3 (greek and assyrians). I'm glad tho that you showed turkish point of view.
I'm a Western person who has citizenship in Australia and The United Kingdom (plus ties to New Zelanad). I am annoyed that all 3 countries don't even recognise these events as Genocide.
When you look into the Americas, who recognised the Armenian Genocide? United States of America, Canada, Venezuela, Brazil, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay, Argentina, Chile.
No Carribbean nations, no Central American nations, Why? Turkey wants to pull other countries legs not to recognise the Genocide.
The Armenian genocide also lack recognition in Asia and Africa. Only 3 nations in Asia (Syria, Lebanon and Armenia) and Libya in Africa recognize the Armenian Genocide.
If Turkey were to cut ties with any country that recognised the Armenian, Assyrian and Greek Genocide. Those countries could loose out on big money and other things.
Australia and New Zealand won't recognise the Genocide because it may cancel future Anzac Day ceremonies. The ANZACs in The Ottoman empire did witness these Genocides.
The Anzacs did make notice of the genocide
@@MartintheMetalhead Anzac didnt see anything because of constantly flying bullets above their heads. They were in Western shores of Anatolia, not East. They even couldnt reach the high grounds, they got humiliated and returned. Your claim is a joke and you are a clown
@Arzu Okut Ne dediğine değil niye dediğine bakacaksın.
You are just a clown. Same thing goes for your English Side. What happened to Real Natives of Australia and America? What happened to africans? I hope all countries will recognize the genocides committed by English people in Australia, canada, us and africa one day
@@MartintheMetalhead yeah evidence like that make this believable story. sources: christian missionaries, American diplomats interested in war and now anzac soldier stuck btw sea and hill .
My father’s family was Levantine, Christians originally from Venetia, who had been living between the Greek island of Kos and neighbouring Turkish city of Izmir for six centuries before, as Christians, they were forced to flee and leave it all behind in the early 1920’s.
They went to Lebanon which they have also had to leave fifty years later…
And I myself am now European because of this.
Greek PM venizelos requested Turkey for population exchange
Turks must be brought to justice for reasons:
1- committing the genocide
2- denying the Armenians genocide