I don't think I'll release tierlist for this patch and probably not for the next patch too. Right now, mages are dominating botlane and some adc items don't work very well, so I'll wait for some changes and stable situation in botlane before making it. I can name the best champions tho! If you're fully an adc main: S - Kog'maw and Nilah are the best A - Sivir, lethality Jhin, Caitlyn and MF with ghostblade-collector, but their items will be nerfed next week. Tristana and Draven look decent too. B - other champions like Ashe, Samira, Xayah, Corki, Jinx and Lucian. Some champions in this category are suffering from bad itemization, like Jinx, Ashe, Corki, so they could be higher with better items choices by players. C - other adcs, nothing much to say. If you wanna abuse mages, here are a couple ones: Karthus, Heimer, Brand, Swain, Hwei, Ziggs, Lux, Seraphine. All of them are very strong so I recommend to learn at least one of them.
Item winrates are also hella misleading as well… some items will always have higher winrates than others simply because people buy them when they’re already winning. Completely ignoring stats and the purposes of the items is a bit of a problem imo
Name one item that players are buying when they're winning except mejais. There's no such item. Statistics will gather all good, average and bad angles for an item and give a result. No one is ignoring stats or purposes of the items. Items are just pure math in general. You always wanna buy better item, like IE for Jinx in 14.18, which was quite popular btw. Of course, there are situations, where you want some different items, like, vs full ap composition you wanna stack magic resistance instead of going for your usual build or vs tanks you wanna get a lot of attack speed, crit and armor pen. Still, in most situations you'll stick to the most optimal build with best items, just because they'll give you the highest chance to win your game. For example, if you're playing Ashe, your best build would be statikk into pd every game. However, if you don't have enough dps in your team, and enemy team has 3-4 melees, you could change it to yuntal/kraken+runaan. Or, if enemy team has a lot of assassins and champions in your team cannot protect well enough, you wanna get bt/trinity/shieldbow on your first 2 items. So, in most situations you'll stick to statikk-pd, but in certain situations your build will change. And look at pro play - players are always playing collector Caitlyn, no matter if they're playing vs full squishy composition or vs heavy tank composition with full ad in their team. Does it sound right to you? Also, I think I explained all items, except IE for Jinx, but it was simply better in terms of damage output, so nothing much to say.
@@armasot Well that's the thing, I agree with a lot of your points but you've also outlined a lot of the reasons why item winrates are incredibly misleading as well. Of course itemization varies from game to game, if you build the exact same items every game because they have the highest winrate, then you're building sub optimal items for the states of the games you're in. But that's the whole point, items are situational. A lot of games adcs don't get to reach full build for instance, so items like GA and IE have disproportionately high winrates. In the video when you said "look at IE, it has a higher winrate than kraken first, which means it's better" is very misleading and you can tell by looking at the amount of games listed that you showed, farrrr less games were played with IE first but it has a substantially higher winrate. This is because there are less games where Jinx is fed enough to go IE first, and when she does, her odds of winning show up as higher because she's fed enough to where she can afford to go that and still win the game. That simply doesn't equate to IE > kraken (granted I always go that item first with her because my playstyle with her relies on me being more passive at 1 item and popping off with IE + hurricane in skirmishes in midgame) a better player than me might always rush Kraken (korean players tend to do this or collector if we look at stats) because their games rely more on early fights for instance. By the logic of winrate = optimal, every champ should have high winrate items in their builds every single game which is simply not true. People who buy guardian angel, mejai's, jaksho, and a whole host of other items do so when they're drastically ahead or in situations where the game is already won. I do agree with you about the mathematical backing of items, esp for adc since we're a dps class, but by that logic as well every crit adc should rush IE because it's mathematically like 1% higher dps than all other first items for instance. A lot of games I play with Jinx I tend to rush IE because her base kit strength + tempo allows her to pop off with only two items like IE and hurricane for example. But also some players might play better with Kraken or collector first because they are able to optimize the passives and need the early strength of those items that IE can't provide (IE doesn't give anything except dmg while kraken and collector provide executes for low health targets which is something jinx really values in early fights paired with having attack speed as well as AD.) Collector is also a lethality item which means if an adc gets massively fed early and rushes it, they will snowball and the item winrate will increase. Also to futher look into collector vs ie for instance, Riot August had a fantastic explanation of item winrates using those two as an example and I think checking it out would be really informative! (just look up august-item winrate fallacy) and it's a subject many "league academics" like LS and such as well as other devs have talked about at length and I'm sure you can find a bunch of other videos that go more in depth on the subject. Also your point about "if you're playing vs full ap go mr" is another perfect example of why item winrates are misleading. Maw has a 55% winrate so if we go by winrate = strength every adc should buy it right? But that's only true because the games in which an adc has already reached their core items (before losing the game), and they choose a defensive item like maw vs full ap or vs a fed ap assassin or smth which is guaranteed to spike the winrate of the item. At the end of the day items aren't simply math and their winrates, winrates are only partially indicative of core builds and item strength. I hope I didn't come off as condescending at all, cheers!
First 2 items are usually not situational. They're mostly core to your build. Yeah, you can choose between some options if your champ allows that (like Ashe), but most of the time you'll want same 2 items, except rare and extreme situations that i've mentioned above. IE first was better for Jinx. You could see it througthout whole 2nd split. Same thing happened with other champions. Games are giving you sample size which decreases the amount of winrate fluctuations. And as I said in the video, yeah, you need 1.3k gold on your recall for this item, but if you didn't have it - statikk was also better than kraken first. So, IE was always better if you had 1.3k gold, if you didn't - well, then your choice is statikk! (btw, I'm talking about 14.18 which was the worlds patch, for 14.22 IE doesn't look the best). About korean players build kraken - no, there's no logic behind it's decision, they're just used to it. Used to times where kraken was the best first item rush. Guardian angel and Jacksho are mostly late game options, I'm not using data for 4th and 5th items, because they're just situational, and mejais - yeah, the only item which people are buying only from ahead. If players play better with kraken and collector, it doesn't mean that it's the best, does it? They can feel more comfortable because they're used to these items, but it's not like your whole playstyle will change with IE first instead of these items. This theme is close to perception of the power vs real power. Items with cool effects and which look powerful in early game will feel stronger than they really are, but in reality, they won't be that good throughout the game. They can be fun, but not optimal. Like, right now it's almost impossible to buy kraken, when it's passive was gutted in 14.19, yet, it's the most popular item for some champions and decreasing their winrate by a lot. About Collector winrate, it's kinda funny, because yeah, theoretically it should be a snowball item, so it's winrate should be higher, yet, it's winrate was bad for whole 2nd split except 1 patch, so people don't perceive this item as snowball one - they're buying it in bad situations as often as in good situations. And yeah, Riot August said that higher cost items will have more winrate, it is true and I'm thinking about it before making any conclusion. That's why I'm saying that IE is not good rn, despite still having the best winrate. Just because it's cost is 600 gold higher than other first item options for adcs on average. Well, and I saw plenty of content creators who used stats completely wrong or didn't use them at all before making any statement. For example, recent adc boom in midlane and toplane. Basically every content creator was saying that adcs are op there, yet, all of them were pretty bad. I even made video about it. Or Vladimir W max build, which decreased his winrate by 3-4% and Riot had to nerf his W just to stop that nightmare. About Maw, not sure where did you find that it has 55% winrate. If we look at same Jinx - in 30 days she has 56.15% winrate with Maw as her 3rd item. But all other items also have high winrate because you're choosing between them in mid-game, which means that you didn't lose your game still. Basically the same thing as with higher cost items will have more winrate. And yeah, maw is situational item, so it's not really useful to look at it's winrate. Winrates are good for first 2-3 items. You can create optimal build path that you'll build in most games and change it to other viable items if you have a reason to do so. Thank you for your comments and effort tho! I really like discussing league and stuff about it :)
I like the content its educational and entertaining when will the tierlist will uploaded for 14.22
I don't think I'll release tierlist for this patch and probably not for the next patch too. Right now, mages are dominating botlane and some adc items don't work very well, so I'll wait for some changes and stable situation in botlane before making it. I can name the best champions tho!
If you're fully an adc main:
S - Kog'maw and Nilah are the best
A - Sivir, lethality Jhin, Caitlyn and MF with ghostblade-collector, but their items will be nerfed next week. Tristana and Draven look decent too.
B - other champions like Ashe, Samira, Xayah, Corki, Jinx and Lucian. Some champions in this category are suffering from bad itemization, like Jinx, Ashe, Corki, so they could be higher with better items choices by players.
C - other adcs, nothing much to say.
If you wanna abuse mages, here are a couple ones:
Karthus, Heimer, Brand, Swain, Hwei, Ziggs, Lux, Seraphine.
All of them are very strong so I recommend to learn at least one of them.
@ thank you for sharing this.
Item winrates are also hella misleading as well… some items will always have higher winrates than others simply because people buy them when they’re already winning. Completely ignoring stats and the purposes of the items is a bit of a problem imo
Name one item that players are buying when they're winning except mejais. There's no such item. Statistics will gather all good, average and bad angles for an item and give a result.
No one is ignoring stats or purposes of the items. Items are just pure math in general. You always wanna buy better item, like IE for Jinx in 14.18, which was quite popular btw.
Of course, there are situations, where you want some different items, like, vs full ap composition you wanna stack magic resistance instead of going for your usual build or vs tanks you wanna get a lot of attack speed, crit and armor pen.
Still, in most situations you'll stick to the most optimal build with best items, just because they'll give you the highest chance to win your game.
For example, if you're playing Ashe, your best build would be statikk into pd every game. However, if you don't have enough dps in your team, and enemy team has 3-4 melees, you could change it to yuntal/kraken+runaan. Or, if enemy team has a lot of assassins and champions in your team cannot protect well enough, you wanna get bt/trinity/shieldbow on your first 2 items. So, in most situations you'll stick to statikk-pd, but in certain situations your build will change.
And look at pro play - players are always playing collector Caitlyn, no matter if they're playing vs full squishy composition or vs heavy tank composition with full ad in their team. Does it sound right to you? Also, I think I explained all items, except IE for Jinx, but it was simply better in terms of damage output, so nothing much to say.
@@armasot Well that's the thing, I agree with a lot of your points but you've also outlined a lot of the reasons why item winrates are incredibly misleading as well. Of course itemization varies from game to game, if you build the exact same items every game because they have the highest winrate, then you're building sub optimal items for the states of the games you're in. But that's the whole point, items are situational. A lot of games adcs don't get to reach full build for instance, so items like GA and IE have disproportionately high winrates. In the video when you said "look at IE, it has a higher winrate than kraken first, which means it's better" is very misleading and you can tell by looking at the amount of games listed that you showed, farrrr less games were played with IE first but it has a substantially higher winrate. This is because there are less games where Jinx is fed enough to go IE first, and when she does, her odds of winning show up as higher because she's fed enough to where she can afford to go that and still win the game. That simply doesn't equate to IE > kraken (granted I always go that item first with her because my playstyle with her relies on me being more passive at 1 item and popping off with IE + hurricane in skirmishes in midgame) a better player than me might always rush Kraken (korean players tend to do this or collector if we look at stats) because their games rely more on early fights for instance.
By the logic of winrate = optimal, every champ should have high winrate items in their builds every single game which is simply not true. People who buy guardian angel, mejai's, jaksho, and a whole host of other items do so when they're drastically ahead or in situations where the game is already won. I do agree with you about the mathematical backing of items, esp for adc since we're a dps class, but by that logic as well every crit adc should rush IE because it's mathematically like 1% higher dps than all other first items for instance. A lot of games I play with Jinx I tend to rush IE because her base kit strength + tempo allows her to pop off with only two items like IE and hurricane for example. But also some players might play better with Kraken or collector first because they are able to optimize the passives and need the early strength of those items that IE can't provide (IE doesn't give anything except dmg while kraken and collector provide executes for low health targets which is something jinx really values in early fights paired with having attack speed as well as AD.) Collector is also a lethality item which means if an adc gets massively fed early and rushes it, they will snowball and the item winrate will increase.
Also to futher look into collector vs ie for instance, Riot August had a fantastic explanation of item winrates using those two as an example and I think checking it out would be really informative! (just look up august-item winrate fallacy) and it's a subject many "league academics" like LS and such as well as other devs have talked about at length and I'm sure you can find a bunch of other videos that go more in depth on the subject.
Also your point about "if you're playing vs full ap go mr" is another perfect example of why item winrates are misleading. Maw has a 55% winrate so if we go by winrate = strength every adc should buy it right? But that's only true because the games in which an adc has already reached their core items (before losing the game), and they choose a defensive item like maw vs full ap or vs a fed ap assassin or smth which is guaranteed to spike the winrate of the item.
At the end of the day items aren't simply math and their winrates, winrates are only partially indicative of core builds and item strength. I hope I didn't come off as condescending at all, cheers!
First 2 items are usually not situational. They're mostly core to your build. Yeah, you can choose between some options if your champ allows that (like Ashe), but most of the time you'll want same 2 items, except rare and extreme situations that i've mentioned above.
IE first was better for Jinx. You could see it througthout whole 2nd split. Same thing happened with other champions. Games are giving you sample size which decreases the amount of winrate fluctuations. And as I said in the video, yeah, you need 1.3k gold on your recall for this item, but if you didn't have it - statikk was also better than kraken first. So, IE was always better if you had 1.3k gold, if you didn't - well, then your choice is statikk! (btw, I'm talking about 14.18 which was the worlds patch, for 14.22 IE doesn't look the best).
About korean players build kraken - no, there's no logic behind it's decision, they're just used to it. Used to times where kraken was the best first item rush.
Guardian angel and Jacksho are mostly late game options, I'm not using data for 4th and 5th items, because they're just situational, and mejais - yeah, the only item which people are buying only from ahead.
If players play better with kraken and collector, it doesn't mean that it's the best, does it? They can feel more comfortable because they're used to these items, but it's not like your whole playstyle will change with IE first instead of these items. This theme is close to perception of the power vs real power. Items with cool effects and which look powerful in early game will feel stronger than they really are, but in reality, they won't be that good throughout the game. They can be fun, but not optimal. Like, right now it's almost impossible to buy kraken, when it's passive was gutted in 14.19, yet, it's the most popular item for some champions and decreasing their winrate by a lot.
About Collector winrate, it's kinda funny, because yeah, theoretically it should be a snowball item, so it's winrate should be higher, yet, it's winrate was bad for whole 2nd split except 1 patch, so people don't perceive this item as snowball one - they're buying it in bad situations as often as in good situations.
And yeah, Riot August said that higher cost items will have more winrate, it is true and I'm thinking about it before making any conclusion. That's why I'm saying that IE is not good rn, despite still having the best winrate. Just because it's cost is 600 gold higher than other first item options for adcs on average. Well, and I saw plenty of content creators who used stats completely wrong or didn't use them at all before making any statement. For example, recent adc boom in midlane and toplane. Basically every content creator was saying that adcs are op there, yet, all of them were pretty bad. I even made video about it. Or Vladimir W max build, which decreased his winrate by 3-4% and Riot had to nerf his W just to stop that nightmare.
About Maw, not sure where did you find that it has 55% winrate. If we look at same Jinx - in 30 days she has 56.15% winrate with Maw as her 3rd item. But all other items also have high winrate because you're choosing between them in mid-game, which means that you didn't lose your game still. Basically the same thing as with higher cost items will have more winrate. And yeah, maw is situational item, so it's not really useful to look at it's winrate.
Winrates are good for first 2-3 items. You can create optimal build path that you'll build in most games and change it to other viable items if you have a reason to do so. Thank you for your comments and effort tho! I really like discussing league and stuff about it :)
Wait Aram tir list day 100