You can choose to turn marauder in Twilight 2000. But then you die. Even the small logistical support the NATO forces had is now barred to you. The supply guys who repaired your jeep now and then are unavailable. You can try to live off the polish peasants but other marauders get the same idea. And on the other side of the diffused front are the soviets. And at any moment, the communists might decide to take advantage of your new weakness.
I've been saying a thing ever since the first time I was a street kid in 2007. So far no new observations I've made have conflicted with it. The observation I made back then was this: "98% of people are always warning you about how bad 98% of people are." It's all highly subjective, and people are just all disinclined to trust each other. But when it comes down to it, most people help each other out under most circumstances.
Iirc, "Lord of the Flies" wasn't exactly about human nature, but about the behavior of childrens in boarding schools. And how, unlike what "Coral Island" said, those kids who were taught very colonialist and violent values would fight among themselves.
It seemed like a human nature argument to me when I read it, but maybe yours was the intention. Whatever the case, it would still show you how normalized the Hobbsian view of humanity is just by virtue of so many assuming that's what it's saying. Edit: Not really important, but I'm pretty sure my teacher taught it as a story about human nature, so that might have been why I was so convinced.
Especially when considering the fact that there are only young boys on the island, no girls. I think is shows that he wasn’t trying to make a statement about what society as a whole might do, just what already privileged, and cruel schoolboys would do. When asked why there are no young girls in the book the author even said that he didn’t feel qualified to write about how a girl might act, as he had never been a girl, and he especially didn’t want people to bring up the topic of sex.
@@rileykim6068 Part of it is that Lord of the Flies was written primarily as a rebuttal to Coral Island, which based its premise on the idea that upper-class british boys, being of superior breeding and education, were superior to "savage races" and were thus more capable than them at forming a functioning society and thriving even in an outwardly hostile land. It was a sort of justification for colonialism, that the british were justified in oppressing natives in foreign lands due to their superior genetics and culture. Given that the author of Lord of the Flies had taught upper-class british schoolboys for a very long time, he naturally had severe issues with that premise. Read in isolation, Lord of the Flies of course looks like a Hobbesian critique of human nature. An unfortunate side effect of the book itself having far bigger of an impact on literature than the book that it was specifically a middle finger to.
As a Lord of The Flies stan I feel compelled to point out that William Golding wasn't trying to say anything negative about overall human nature but specifically about the nature of imperialist, white, upper-class male privilege. The boys are all very specifically from privileged upbringings and used to being able to have their needs met by and showcasing their power over those below them. Placed in an environment where there is no hierarchy to benefit them, they soon begin abusing the least privileged among them to try and reestablish one. His issue is with the rich, not human nature in general.
@Miguel Pimentel bjebifewbewfbiubiucs White privilege still plays a part in those systems, though? But it might not be the focus for this one piece of media because of the homogenous race (or lack of other races) in the novel.
Interesting. I’d never considered it that way - I would think the criticism is still relevant as the upper class whiteness is postured by many who read it as reflecting innate human nature. But this shifts the criticism from the author and intent (which is hard to genuinely ascertain) to the broad consensus of the public. If anything, it speaks to how deeply the system centers ruling identities as a story about upper class whites is taken as being about humanity itself.
Specifically, he was attempting to subvert a popular trend in children's literature at the where groups of well behaved children get stranded in untamed savage lands and through their ingenuity, cooperation and good proper upbringing as a civilized race bring order and civility to these lands before rescue.
@@DeyvsonMoutinhoCaliman simple childish impotence When you're completely basing your worldview on thinking that it's natural and good for you to be pampered, it makes sense that you'd lash out when reality challenges you Then you have people like Jack or Roger who end up regaining their place of privilege by stepping over rhe people below them. And that's how hierarchies form
I already forgot what his first pun was but remember that it was pretty good, the second one being blahblah funk/yadayada junk. So, making parts of the ad memorable IS doing something right. Although...I AM writing this comment with the video paused. Maybe I'd've completely forgot the ads if I could sit through such a long YT video...
So. I come from a fallen socialist country. When I was a kid we read this story for class called "the train in the snow" it details a train full of school children getting stuck in a massive blizzard on their way to a school trip and everybody down to their abilities pitching in to help this coal powered train to get to it's destination. it's grueling but the kids pull through. For a lot if us, working together to make something impossible happen is second nature. Mind you,I was about 8-9 when this lesson took place.
@vomittie The USSR was state Capitalist, that's how Leninism works, Lenin himself has stated it was State Capitalist. Dude, don't talk about thinks you are clearly clueless about. Your are just exposing yourself.
@@1997lordofdoom i doubt regular shoolchildren are "the state government" or "political officers" tho, if anyone could hold the values communist countries proposed it would be the ones educated under its values
@@cheekybum1513 Originality is overrated. I mean, look at you, using the internet like millions of other people, wearing clothes (hopefully) and living in a house of some kind like most humans in recorded history; such an unoriginal poseur, right? Bet you consume food and water to not die, too.
"Order and chaos have always been a false dichotomy, asserted to demonize the 'bad violence' and authorize the 'good violence." absolutely bangs as a quote and I've never seen it expressed so well.
I love the juxtaposition on post-apocalyptic larps; first we build a town together and help each other get dressed in our best wastelander outfits, then shoot and rob each other as no one can trust each other, while still trying to make the best game for everyone.
"the lord of the flies" was a subversion of "the coral island", an imperialist (and racist) story. lotf was written more to expose the arrogance of the british high class as a destructive behavior. sorry it's just irritating to me that no one seems to add this context when they want to criticize lotf; i think it's important to mention that although it was about "human nature" it was more specifically about imperialist behavior. anyway have a good day jack
The problem with such an allegory is that if you use something that exists/could exist in the real world as an analogy for something else, your story can easily sound like it's about the thing it's literally about and not the thing it's actually about. Especially once the work is removed from its original cultural context.
I think this a great intentional context and I love that. But I was taught this book as if it was about human nature at 15, and it messed me up a lot, lol.
even years after coming to the realization that the selfish apocalypse is a fantasy and humanity is inherently kind, every time i hear about these real world examples i can't help but tear up.
Well, that is something interesting I find. I think it's a true statement that the vast majority of people want to do good, however, morality is subjective. Someone wanting to do the "good" thing in their mind very well could mean genocide, so on the scale of a global societal collapse..... the minority of near objectively morally wrong people get their time to shine.
The examples he gives at the beginning of the video have no relevance to what a post-apocalyptic society might turn into. If a localized disaster strikes, people know help is coming. They will work together to get through this "temporary" setback until the State arrives and helps to get everything back to normal. We have no real examples of what might happen if the State NEVER arrives because the localized disaster wasn't local, but global. Even if most humans in such a situation band together cooperatively it just takes a well-armed, hostile group (maybe influenced by media like Mad Max or Fallout) to turn everything to shit. Also, the closest we have is to a widespread disaster that dismantled the State was maybe in WW2 when the Nazis or the USSR invaded countries and began committing genocide. Sure, there were good people who did what they could to save lives but on the other hand, plenty willingly helped to kill innocent people so they could take their stuff.
@Morphing Taxi The USSR invaded the Baltic States and began a process of committing genocide on their people. Deported their population to Siberia, and killed thousands, then began repopulating the Baltics with Russians. I don't see how you can qualify their actions as anything other than an attempted genocide
This video made me remember Train to Busan (EXCELLENT zombie film btw), and how the main characters and some people of the group are compassionate and wish to help each other. The big burly dad man actually lets himself DIE in order to let a stranger and his daughter get out safely, his now widowed wife eventually adopting the daughter out of a genuine desire to make sure she’s safe. But there is self-interested hateful group mentality: It’s only when the big successful CEO gets annoyed that he’s inconvenienced and tries to sacrifice people, even betraying them, that he rallies others to become as self-serving as him.
Well, imo boiling the CEO down to "annoyed because inconvenienced", while fair, is a little reductive. The CEO is himself really scared & wants to run home to his mommy. The problem is that he selfishly considers his desire to make sure his mum is okay more important than anyone else's desires to check in on their loved ones or, uh, not die lol. His inability to recognize the humanity of other people & to see it as valuable/of equal weight to his own is what makes him the true monster of the film.
@Rev Oendetta It evolved out of mercantilism and became an idea during the industrial revolution due to the mercantile classes accumulation of wealth, an increase in humanism and many other socio-economic factors as well as the rise of the state. Hobbinsion thought was highly influnential and capitalism started to gain traction from desire for social mobility and many many other factors. Capitalism was not the prevailing system throughout human history, noir even a thought for a long long time with nobels and only the mercantile class holding real wealth Or people living together and exchanging things between each other freely in gift economies or barter economy's and much more. Needless to say, if you thought humans were doing capitalism back in the stone age your the definition of wrong, it is incredibly recent in the ways we would recognize it.
Personally I always felt like Caesar knew full well that what he was practicing wasn't /really/ Hegelian Dialectics and that he was just trying to manipulate you into agreeing with/supporting him by prattling on about something smart and intellectual sounding in the way dictators are somewhat prone to doing.
just wanna mention the Netflix show "the society" it's a teen drama inspired by Lord of the flies but instead of them being nasty to each other the teens band together and share resources and the main antagonists of the series are a rich boy who is mad that he no longer had the "status" he used to and is forced to SHARE what he has and like, a fascist. I haven't really seen anyone talking about it tho.
The thing to remember about Lord of the Flies is that none of the boys were out of their early teens, some were very young and are divided right from the beginning of the book. A communal structure is formed but collapses not because of any inherent human nature, but because of the unpreparedness of the proper English schoolboy (or, by proxy, any self-confident "civilised" person) in a situation of sudden chaos and lack of control, and the snowball effect it can have on a group psyche. Consider the fact that by the second act, the boys had failed to signal a ship, accidentally caused the death of a child and set part of the jungle alight; and that the situation was created in the first place when they were evacuated during a cold war escalation. It's a worst-case scenario, but incredibly convincing in the way it's written and plotted and has (I think) unmatched insight into the behaviour and thought of schoolboys and forced group isolation.
@@erikruder3360 Lord of the Flies was meant to be a parody on the British upperclasses and their views in the 50's. Widely on colorism, the kids were not devolving, they were choosing to behave in an "uncivilized" manner as an excuse to be cruel.
That would be a really good piece of socialist propaganda. You should take that to China, and not return. Edit: A moron later in the comment thread insists that because China is actually a Communist state, their ties with socialism are somehow irrelevant. I suppose I can't fault idiots for not understanding what *Propaganda* is or even that China describes themselves as a "People's Republic" as outlined by socialist theory. That distortion of political reality is what makes it propaganda, China quite regularly partakes socialist messaging.
When you mentioned Borderlands it actually made me think for a second. While Pandora mimics the aesthetics of the traditional apocalypse the reasoning for why the world is so violent and unhinged is actually contrary to the Hobbesian idea that people are inherently selfish and savage. Pandora is a lawless wasteland BECAUSE of authorities like the Mega Corporations of Dahl, Hyperion, and Atlas. That their short sited profit seeking would cause them to abandon countless civilians, soldiers, employee's, and enforced laborers many of which were former criminals or mentally unwell the moment their venture became unprofitable. That these people would not only have to fend for themselves against not just the violent nature of the planet but the massive power vacuums, abundance of weapons, and toxic material that made the planet the perfect tinder box of a shit show. Not to mention how the super corps would continue to profit from the violence on Pandora by feeding the population more and more weapons but invasions such as the one from Atlas in BL1 and Hyperion in BL2 would only kick the hornets nest demolishing any manner of stability the planet had developed. Even in BL3 it's mentioned that the Cult of the Vault, the main bandit faction you fight against, draws it's numbers from the countless broken worlds like Pandora across the galaxy. That the Mega Corps are solely responsible for the creation of this toxic environment and as the game itself puts it, countless "human wreckage" that are the mentally unwell, physically scarred, and abandoned populations of bandits in the universe. It always bothered me how Borderlands while being known best as the "funny meme looter game" it has the potential for some really good themes but it just never goes far enough to reach it and it's frustrating to no end but hey I guess I'd rather have a hypothetically interesting story at the end of the day.
Thank you for bringing this up, as a huge fan of the series it brings me joy that these stories are being told but it also scares me in that borderlands isn't even that far as a realistic extreme of a post-capitalist society, where there is no longer even regulation to stop the megacorporations from puppeteering the average individual. Even the 'enemies' in the series are abandoned corporate slaves left to band together and kill in the atruggle for survival that is life on Pandora. I sometimes feel bad thinking about that while I'm playing, the fact that most of these 'savage bandits' I'm killing were once just people, forced to work on distant colonies for the profit of manipulative CEOs like Jack, while I come in as a treasure hunter entirely disregarding the situation of the place I'm coming to loot. It's worrying to think that the hellscape these games depicts isn't too far from possible, and I think we really need to consider media like this more when looking at the path of our society. Even 'funny shooter haha' games can provide much needed foresight
well hot damn Imma comment on this to make sure that I have this 2 comments saved..in a way does anyone know how to save youtube comments in a better way as dammit I enjoyed reading both the comments. And well they are good comments to keep as it will keep me thinking.
"When war is between USA fanboys, Ancient Rome fanboys, and Elon Musk, I understand where they're coming from" is the best line. My ribs are still fucking hurting
The big irony here is I just watched Mother's Basement's "Japan Sinks is Awesome, Actually" video, which talks about how Japan Sinks is great for bucking the trend of Mad Max-style nihilistic loner survivors by showing a disaster where most of the people come together in adversity, while at the same time, death comes completely out of the blue to the people who are arguably the best survivalists for no reason other than bad luck. Apparently, a lot of people hate the show because it doesn't engage in the morality play tropes of the greedy survivalist dying or people going straight for the "Leathers and Feathers".
A lot of complaints i saw mostly came from holy fuck are so many of the characters annoying and stupid. The only tolerable characters barely speak. Also the fact it was essentially an ad for the tokyo Olympics.
@@raze_ The "ad for the Tokyo Olympics" part was one of the things discussed in the video. He was saying the non-Japanese people getting on reddit saying that are missing that this is a show aimed at the Japanese, and to a Japanese person, the end credits are showing all the things that would be lost, not just hyping Japan to the Japanese. The part about characters that use English interchangeably with Japanese is also discussed because the whole show comes down pretty hard against some of the xenophobic tendencies of Japan. The fact that Go is half-Filipino and sprinkles English into his speech explicitly gets the group left to die by the ultra-nationalists at one point. So yeah, their speech may be cringe, but it's there for important plot reasons. When characters exist to represent different strata of society, the fact that they don't act the way you want them to isn't really a flaw in the story.
Im glad someone mentioned this! After watching MB’s vid and the anime I came back to this vid scrolled through the comments specifically to see if anyone else was talking about this! xD
The quotation at 56:02: "It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism" is a paraphrase of Fredric Jameson's famous assertion, “It seems to be easier for us today to imagine the thoroughgoing deterioration of the earth and of nature than the breakdown of late capitalism; perhaps that is due to some weakness in our imaginations,” which appears in his book The Seeds of Time (1992). The simplified version comes from Slavoj Žižek, who punches it up, admittedly, while losing some of its intellectual heft. Hashtag Department of Credit where Credit Is Due.
House is a fictional character with no thoughts or feelings; he has no honor for you to defend, because he is merely an idea. Moreover, Musk is probably the closest thing to House that's actually possible. House is a man of special ideas who can theoretically fix the unfixable with the help of the extreme wealth he got by being cool and smart; Elon Musk is a normal human like the rest of us whose job it is to pretend to fit the above description, but the key detail is that every possible human in every possible scenario also falls short of the whole Great Man notion that House is an example of. If Edwin House were a real man, he'd be as pathetic as Elon Musk, I promise you.
@@aaron552au using physical weakness and appearance of a body as an argument against his character is one of the most bigoted approaches you could take.
This is why Conservative thought is often said to be founded in fear and insecurity - It's entirely based in a Hobbsian view that creates an inherent distrust in humankind and rejects the concept of mutual benefit.
@split haven Hey buddy: "But take away our rules and societal and cultural norms" None of your examples are in any way related to this. Everything you followed-up with was a cultural norm of its time, and state-enforced rules to keep it that way. Congratulations on being part of the problem by continuing to grasp onto your baseless cynicism. Now, go try to balance it by watching medical professionals and community members supporting those in need during this pandemic, each and every one proving you wrong by demonstrating their own 'cultural norms'.
I am a Paranoid bastard, but you don't live to die surrounded by friends and family without sleeping with a gun in easy reach. and your neighbors happy for your help.
Except Anthropological studies of how early man lived and behaved paints a picture of a world that much more closely resembles Hobbes's version of the 'state of nature' than that of Locke.
unless I’m mistaken, the splint they made for his leg when it got broken/injured was so good he healed better/faster than he would have at the time getting actual medical help. people are awesome and so are those kids.
One more thing about Gurren Lagann and Rosiu: after Simon defeats the Anti-Spirals, he goes into a self-imposed exile and leaves Rosiu in charge. Rosiu goes on to make peace with all the other races in the universe and the implication is that this is what will prevent the Spiral Nemesis from occurring. Simon's hard-headedness was needed to cast of the chains of authority, but Rosiu's restraint was what was needed to build the world that came after.
Yep, I think this was the show's way to reconcile with its own premise of there being an inherent danger to unchecked ambition and expansion. Kamina's belief to always reach for the heavens no matter what was a thesis, the stifling of life that the anti-Spirals believed to be necessary was antithesis, and Simon and Rosiu simply knowing when to stop unchecked expansion after defeating the anti-spiral's overreaction to spiral lifeforms was the synthesis. I also feel like the opening where "all the lights in the heaven are our enemy now" is like the bad ending AU where Simon never stops fighting and keeps trying to expand humanity to the point of total destruction that the Anti-Spirals feared.
I agree with your point and I wish that Jack had brought it up. He tries to compare Gurren to World Without End and how that film comes off as a manifest destiny justification of killing those they deem savage, but in Gurren Lagann some of the villains of the surface that they defeated ultimately join them in their fight with the anti-spiral and the whole reason they originally kept humanity restricted was out of fear of the spiral nemesis and the anti-spiral threatening their existence if they grew too big. The anti-spirals themselves are essentially cosmic eco fascists. They are united in the belief that life is a danger to the balance of nature and needs to be strictly controlled and have completely sacrificed their own individuality to that end. Team Dai Gurren represents a belief in people that they can change things for the better without needing to sacrifice one's freedom and individuality. And in the end he leaves things in the hands of Rossiu to help reform society. I think Jack just sort of plainly attaching the concept of manifest destiny onto Gurren Lagann without elaborating and analyzing it more was a mistake.
@@getschwifty5537 I always thought the opening was basically the original way the Anti-Spiral fight was supposed to appear, with all of the "lights" representing the Anti-Spiral fleet
You know, I've watched this multiple times now, and I really think it might just be your opus. There aren't many other video essayists out there who can make something this grand, ambitious, and profoundly insightful. Keep up the good work, big brain take man!
As someone living in Minneapolis, participating in the uprising after George Floyd, this "the worst of humanity will be exposed" line of thinking seems like a naive, schoolboy fantasy. That's not what happens, at least not in what I've seen. I've seen mutual aid and hope and the community coming together. It also bothers me that these mob violence scenes never fully show the turn. Anyone who has been in a crowd that has gone from relatively peaceful to destructive understands that turn, it's a visceral thing that everyone can feel, time slows down, senses get heightened. Just as an example, when the police first started throwing tear gas and flashbangs at the 3rd precinct, the action of them doing that couldn't have been longer than a few minutes, tops, but it felt like it took forever to register we were being attacked and the emotion/vibe of the crowd turned drastically. The I'm not gonna take this shit anymore valve gets turned on for everyone all at once and it's an explosion of hurt and pain and rage. No one was telling anyone what to do, people would ask for help with stuff if they needed it - water for teargas, help lifting things, medical attention, but no one was in charge. I think if anyone would have attempted to take control of other people they would have been laughed off/not listened to. When you are in that situation, you have your power back, there's no reason to give it away.
I agree. At no point during the protests were we a danger to each other, and despite the general rage and pain in the crowd, we were very targeted in our efforts. We were helping each other, not tearing each other down. Like you said, there wasn't leadership so much as unity of purpose.
@@dccalling5960 Right, unity of purpose, exactly. Lots of people were doing different things, but it all was for a common goal, everyone just did what they could. Almost like we are all adults who don't need a giant authority figure to get shit done and not hurt each other. I certainly never felt like I was unsafe because of anyone in the crowd, the only danger was the police.
Rossiue isn't able to alter reality at will like those around him, he lacks individual power despite having state-granted power. This could have many different interpretations but to me, he represents someone chained by the status quo that wishes to change it. Unlike most of the other main characters, Rossiue isn't able to do the impossible. However, he still wishes to improve the situation utilizing only the possible. His fault then is that he is working within the definitions and rules of someone else. He's rebelling, but only in the predicted and allowed ways
An interisting fact to note, is that Simon recognises that Rossiue way of thinking is valuable (just after stoping him from kiling himself, i believe). Like, you cannot always be in revolution because your drill would break eventually, you have to stop to cool down from time to time.
@@DarkHunter047 Fight the power is step 1 and not the entire argument, which is why revolutions tend to mess up and just put the same kind of oppressors in power.
@@DarkHunter047 Not going to lie, despite saying that the constant rebellion was a key piece of the story for years, I never realized the dual meaning of revolution in this context.
@Spectator 101 I agree, I don't think you can blame Rossiu for not trying to overpower a god. It's a tricky situation as from Rossiu's perspective Simon and the gang are at fault for earning the Anti-spiral wrath through negligence, so it even makes sense that he doesn't then trust them to solve the problem.
Hot take: Fallout 3, Mad Max, The Mist ect. Are 'Apocolyptic' tales, where the larger society is still within the 'apocolypse' and living through the primary trials and dilemmas of 'the event'. Whereas Fallout NV/1/2, Blade Runner, Logans Run, Judge Dredd ect. Are post-apocalyptic, where the larger and mesium societies have been created with aspects and ideologies of the pre-apocolypse, integrated with the lessons of the apocolypse and managed by a larger and more defined authority.
The way most people use the term, an "apocalypse" is defined as a singular event rather than a process. Even if the society doesn't completely collapse for some time thereafter, there _must_ be a singular point in time pinpointed as _the_ apocalypse, because that's how people define it (and how people instinctively understand history in general). Fallout 3, Mad Max, The Mist, etc take place while society falls apart, but after "the apocalyptic moment"; they are "post-apocalyptic". I like to call stories about the societies which rise after the apocalyptic process "post-post-apocalyptic". You mentioned some, but I'd like to also mention The Last of Us (which you've likely heard of) and _Ward_ (the sequel to Wildbow's web novel _Worm,_ which is obviously difficult to discuss without spoilers for one or both novels).
Fallout 3 is considered post-apocalyptic, the direct aftermath and chaos of the end of the world. The apocalypse being the nuclear war itself. 1/2/NV are considered post-post-apocalyptic. The chaos has largely subsided and society is becoming a facsimile of what it once was.
The ncr still allows and even facilitates slavery, in fallout 2 there was a slave pen right outside the capital city and in new vegas theres the NCRCF, which uses prison labor to build infrastructure which is slavery.
The NCR rangers ask you to wipe out the slave pen though, I think they werent taking more direct action because they were trying to convince vault city and other small settlements to assimilate and lacked the strenght to impose their will.
@@ill232 the rangers werent in control of policy and at the time was an independant organization. They might have outlawed it now (I'm not sure if its explicitly stated that they have) but they still facilitate it through prison labor.
Yeah, they're still the best option in the game. They're the closest thing to a stable society. Also, We have prison slavery right now. Which is horrible, but the NCR had the excuse of the literal fallout. So yeah, they have their problems. But the other option is ceaser and the murder robot.
Yeetles Law Yeetles Law the free wheeling fourth choice in which you can reject house, the ncr, and the legion and create an independent new vegas whose circumstances and effects are informed by the player choices made throughout the game is very clearly the best option, which was intended by the developers. Also “slavery is justified if its a post nuclear apocalypse” is really fucking cringe. The whole point of being anti-slavery is rejecting all proposed justifications for its practice, fictional or non-fictional. If your argument is that there are sometimes scenarios where slavery is good actually means you are pro slavery. It makes me sus of your “prison slavery is horrible” comment, because you clearly dont believe that wholeheartedly.
I guess, but only using a broader definition of slavery than most people understand the word to mean, since most people associate the word specifically with chattel slavery. Prison labour CAN also be voluntary, in which case it is not slavery, although I haven't played FNV so I don't know how it portrays the prison labour in that world.
Hey, Jack. I know you probably aren't familiar with it but I'd like to hear your take on "The Eternaut" it's an Argentine comic, really influential in Latin America. It depicts a group of heroes dealing with a sudden alien invasion in Buenos Aires. Which is often analysed as a metaphor for the coups in Latin America and Argentina during that time period, as well as imperialism, colonialism, and capitalism. The author was a leftist and was forcefully disappeared during the country's last dictatorship in 1977.
I would suggest also to take on the follow-up novel... which was sadly never finished as Oesterheld was "disappeared" before he could. It's a fantastic work of science fiction, and even someone like me who doesn't care about any form of nationalism, can feel a tinge of pride knowing he was from this land (And a heavy load of shame for what happened to him)
There's another type maybe, the melancholic apocalypse, but I can only actually think of one example: Yokohama Kaidashi Kikō. Which is a story in a post-ecological collapse world. It's very much a "the time of humanity has ended" type of vibe, but rather than people violently fighting against it, there's acceptance. There are a lot of little clues that there was a period of trying to technology-our-way out of it, but it didn't work and that time has passed and there is acceptance.
Girls' Last Tour and Humanity Has Declined are perhaps two other examples in which there is/was an apocalypse but everyone is pretty chill about it. Sora no Woto could count too I guess as although it is implied that humanity is in real danger of going extinct due to wars over dwindling resources, the characters don't let it affect them too much.
Its a plot point in a sea of many other ones but Disco Elysium has a climate change analogue that results in acceptance in the few characters that acknowledge it as well. Its not of huge relevance in the proper plot but it adds a level of coming to terms with catastrophes and the resulting loss and grief from personal to societal to global.
A more recent example to add to the pile is Refind Self, the personality test game with robots who are in, shall we say, something of a Nier Automata situation, but there's a lot less fighting. Not zero, but a lot less, and way more melancholoy and focus on 'who you are' versus 'doing something'.
Nier Automata would fit right in, in particular, as like....basically everything talked about here. in particular the recapitulation of the Old World. the robots mimicking aspects of humanity without understanding, and the androids honestly not being much better. the robots recreate monarchy, religious extremism, hedonism, and more.
Adventure Time has a whole arc about humans inhabiting a bubble society rather than risking the radical perils of the post-post-post-post-post apocalypse. I think it fits!
Adventure time is an interesting one... in the wider scope of things, humans were just a short-lived species that caused natural magic to be suppressed, so in a way the apocalypse was actually restoring some sort of balance (in spite of the obvious structural damage)
It seems awfully convenient that a choice between cut throat lawlessness and the state in these apocalyptic stories sure seems to benefit the state 🤔 By not recognizing that people are far more compassionate and helpful in times of crisis, you don’t have to recognize that there’s more compassionate options for the state to use and *should* be using to help the people they’re supposed to represent.
An hour of Jack...yes please. *1 hr 10 min later* children of men is one of my favorite post apocalypse & dystopian movies. Its themes reflect so much of our current realty. And yes a full video of mad max fury road would be appreciated
So as it turns out humans tend to help each other when the going gets rough, like leaving a comment on a fantastically written and performed video essay to boost engagement! This video honestly left me wanting an analysis of how different films portray the future as a concept, whether that's post-apocalyptic or not. It could be nice to have a comparison between portrayals of what could be defined as two opposite ways in which society could undergo massive change.
What does it say about masculinity that we can't take below the belt grooming seriously unless we buy "The Lawnmower" I'm sorry but that name is so "MAN" that I can't help but laugh.
It’s so pathetic. I honestly feel so embarrassed when companies do this shit. It’s so juvenile. I feel like I’m being treated as some idiotic child who must play pretend soldier in order to do anything, rather than an adult.
Honestly, I was a weird super-smart nerdy kit growing up who learned about all the historical and systemic bullshit behind our view of gender when I was like 9 (Having some trouble remembering because of basically fugue because I had a really fucked-up childhood) and I was caught off-guard by that. I had a reaction that I can best describe as "I knew it was this bad and that shit like this is inevitable on a purely cognitive level, but then again, on a purely cognitive level, I know that race is also bullshit, but that doesn't mean that I don't get all weird when I hear about nonwhite/Jewish things for too long from when I was a weird nazbol shut-in".
I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that apocalyptic depictions of people turning into self interested psychopaths devoid of empathy or cooperation is unrealistic and overdone. I've been griping about the walking dead for this very reason for years... That said I don't think the comparison between a blizzard and a situation like that in The Mist is a very apt one. A hard and rapid breakdown of all signs of a greater social order with no idea of scope in terms of time or geography with a seemingly implacable potentially supernatural threat is very different from that of a temporary and well understood setback in societal functioning like that of a blizzard. People understand a blizzard... They understand it will eventually end, and that it hasn't erased all of civilization. They understand what they need to do to survive one. They also understand that they'll likely be held culpable for their behavior after things return to normal. I don't think anyone alive today knows what happens when there's no "normal" to return to.
Given humans are social animals and our survival strategy has been to live in groups for longer than we have been human... Nah, social cooperation in times of need are instinctual. Will some groups be more prone to attacking other groups? Definitely - especially if there's a lack of resources and another group nearby with resources. But they'll still be banding together in groups in the first place and relying on other members of the group for their own survival. Notably, chimpanzees will band together and attack other nearby groups of chimpanzees if there's a lack of resources in the area and the other group's territory has food. Chimps will also hunt and eat meat from time to time. And there's also the example of early settlers on the US Prairie. They banded together and helped each other out when there were wildfires and tornadoes. There wasn't much in the way of government support or law enforcement in the area at the time. Granted, they limited that help to other white ppl, but that's more of the in-group vs out-group behavior that I would expect to see in such a scenario - especially in that era.
Jack, apparently the director meant for The Mist to be released in Black and White. The producers decided to release it in color because they were worried that audiences can’t understand black and white films apparently. it’s much more atmospheric, and creepy. the effects look better too ha
Didn't Darabont make the Mist to be a satire of 50s sci fi films that were just propaganda in a thinly veiled disguise? Hence why he wished for it to be in black and white.
Was happy to hear Noah Caldwell-Gervais in this video. As a huge Half-Life fan, his Half-Life retrospective was one of my favorite videos for years, and I’ve been watching a lot of his videos since then. Good cameo.
An important detail I think you might be missing about Gurren Lagann is that after liberating the spiral races, Simon leaves Rossiu in charge and hands over his core drill to essentially the next generation. The idea that it's perpetuating a climate change denial is challenged by the fact that the spiral nemesis is real and would happen if it weren't for the restraint that someone like Rossiu is uniquely capable of showing. The heroes' point to the anti-spiral is not "The spiral nemesis isn't real" or "The spiral nemesis isn't a problem we need to worry about" it's that they need to believe in our ability to avoid it. The final exchange between Simon and the Anti-spiral is the Anti-spiral saying (after being defeated) "if this is how it must be, protect the universe at all costs" and Simon responds, "Of course. Believe in us, too." The spiral nemesis is a problem that they need to solve, but it is worth trying to solve it in a way that doesn't require the oppression of anyone. Kamina's view of never giving in and always doing whatever you want no matter the consequences is shown to be flawed and that the true solution is to combine that drive to improve society with the more level-headed approach of Rossiu and to some extent Nia. Even though the fandom is pretty shitty to Rossiu, I think the show is ultimately supportive of him and most of the fans just missed the point. He is the best suited to running things, he just messed up the first time because he forgot Kamina's lesson of always striving for the best possible society. After Simon demonstrates this to him, he is perfectly equipped to be the new leader of humanity, making peace with all the other spiral races and establishing a utopia. Sorry for writing so much, but, as you might glean from my avatar, Gurren Lagann is my favorite anime and one of my favorite pieces of media ever. I don't consider flawless by any stretch of the imagination, in fact I can think of several anime that I consider technically better, its favorite status is more due to the personal emotional impact it has had on me. I am fully willing to recognize its flaws, but I don't think this is one.
Plenty of climate deniers have changed tunes to "climate change is real, but we can't/shouldn't do anything about it/humanity will prevail no matter what/god will save me, fuck you"
You're right that Mad Max stands out for it's resource-war slow decline instead of a sudden apocalypse. This is exactly why I think we. NEED. A film adaptation of _Parable of the Sower._ Octavia Butler's climate crisis meltdown of society is so compelling because it is so believable. Once you've read it you can always see that world just a few steps of backsliding from where we are.
One note about Fallout: New Vegas. The NCR do practice slavery: forced prison labor. That's the plotline of a minor faction, the former chain-gang, the Powder Gangers.
Still call him Kaiser, for the exact same reason I respect people's names and pronouns, even while punching his shitty fashy face to death. A silly take, perhaps, but, yeah...
About OTHER apocalyptic media... Banner Saga? Lots of interesting ideas there: Apocalypse occurring in an already post apocalyptic society, the literal death of gods as an authority for people to put faith in, the unpreparedness of leaders in replacing those gods as beacons of faith, apocalypse imagined as a communal struggle rather than an individualist one, the struggle to juggle morality with material needs, immigration politics, a little feminism, an otherwise completely demonized antagonist group being revealed to be very human. It’s also a tactics game, like XCOM, except much more reasonable.
aw im glad someone actually mentioned the banner saga. it has so much to say and its so beautifully made. i love how it portrays people and the kind of group effort it takes to keep going at the end of the world and its a story i really needed, and one that i appreciate even more after playing it again. plus the music is awesome, really captures the melancholic strength that the story puts out.
As far as anime go, Yokohama Shopping Trip (Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou) and Girls' Last Tour (Shoujo Shuumatsu Ryokou) offer rather unique takes on the whole post-apocalypse thing.
There are a few things to unpack here, as I think aloud (as it were) to myself in silence. Golding's central thesis regarding the boys of _The Lord of the Flies_ reflects his lived experience as a teacher ... of the upper classes of white British schoolboys. He had remarked, regarding their portrayals in children's literature, that their disposition was more cut-throat, more animalistic, and that the conditioning of British schoolboys to defer to social authorities would lead to this destructiveness when they are removed. And he has a point. In looking at colonial Australian history, very often it was the absence of such authorities that enabled genocide. At the "local level," the poison-loaced flour, the rape of children due to the virgin cure myth, et alia, these acts were enabled by the absence of such authorities, and the "free" application of authority away from oversight was a key factor in the later Coniston massacre of 1928. And all this leads to anarchy. Essentially, anarchy is the absence of formalised, even ossified hierarchies of leadership. That is, anarchy is often the absence of the state. And it is in the state's best interest to enjoy narratives that portray the absence of the state as a utopia for poltical nihilism. This is why such Hobbesian fantasias exist. And I guess that this results in its own form of dialectic: the state destroys itself because it destroys its alternative, the same way that anarchism implodes through its denial of the hierarchic realities of society. Hierarchies tie small, personal communities into one, so that the stronger a hierarchy, such as that of the federalised state or of a public service/exectutive branch of government, the more resistant it is to sudden, even apocalyptic collapse. The state needs to reconcile with anarchy, and vice versa. Each one is, therefor, the other's shadow, to be integrated with rather than eliminated. And yes, I know, there are some, nay many out there who dispute the notion of genocide occuring in colonial Australia, usually on the predicate that the absence of the idea , rather, the term, made the idea unthinkable. It's almost as though saying the lack of the word 'Caesar Salad' precluded the idea of inventing the Caesar Salad. And yet.... Given the ideological importance of nostalgia and the inability to think beyond what once was, that almost (well, strictly speaking it is) Lovecraftian notion of "The past is real, it's all that exists," it is important to realise that the Fallout series embeds within itself the very critique of that notion. The cyclic nature of that universe arises clearly out of the failures to think beyond the past. It chases its own tail, its own future, yet progresses nowhere. Even that image recycles the Wheel of Fortune and the tragic failure of those that seek to break it, even escape from it. It's almost as if such cycles return eternally, until, even unless, some radical break, some apocalyptic shift occurs, some road to Damascus moment (a single apocalyptic moment) or some long dark night of the soul (an ongoing apocalyptic sequence). It's almost as if some centrifuge spins from foreverness unto foreverness, keeping asunder the red dragon, the white dragon, the darkenening dove and the (en)lightening one. Keeping apart, that is, any chance of a synthesis of two antagonistic theses....
Been rewatching Battlestar Galactica this year-my first revisit in ten years or so!-and while the premise of the 00s show says more about our fractured priorities post-9/11, it's interesting now to see it as one of the more interesting takes on the post-apocalypse, as one of the main concerns of the show is the effort it takes to keep the old societal structures intact vs. the usual stories about what rises from the ashes after those structures have been fully erased. While that seems to place it on the "dystopia" side of the sort-of spectrum that you mentioned, I'd still argue "post-apocalypse" for BSG as the catastrophe is literally world-ending. Planets laid to waste and billions dead, 50,000 people left on several dozen ships. What happens next, by definition, has to be a response to the end of the world!
I only say this because you encouraged us to do this in the comments: I am blown away that you didn't mention Postman. Nowhere are the supposed dichotomies you are describing laid more bare.
@@scratch2086 The Postman is a book by David Brin and a movie based on that book by Kevin Costner. The movie is a dumber, more patriotic version of the book, but it surprisingly keeps the core themes alive. It's an illustration of the faliciousness of primitivist-fascist ideology and its view on humans strikes just the balance between Hobbesian egoism, which the antagonist faction subscribes to, and Rousseauian noble savage idealism, as it describes a post-apocalyptic society rebuilding itself on nothing but the abolishment of the illusion of heteronymity. I recommend the movie if you're fine with the excrutiating lengths and sap of later Costner movies, on which I personally thrive.
At 53:40 when you look around because the Wild Wasteland perk activated, its because there’s a reference from Monty Python’s The Life of Brian written on the wall next to you in red paint.
Okay, but how does one talk about "Lord of the Flies" without talking about how the author apparently meant it as a response to the idea of White English/Western European exceptionalism (the idea that white, English children would be inherently more civilized in that type of disaster situation than children of any other group)?
Easily. In high schools all over America at least there's none of that reading, and I've only ever heard of it from this specific comment section. I can see how that might be true after being shown the interpretation, but the author's intentions are easily hidden.
Damnit. He mentioned New Vegas. Now I’m gonna have to spend days reinstalling New Vegas. Every few years you have to go find all the best realism mods, community patches, graphical overhauls, etc (ie all the things that make the game “vanilla+” without adding dumb stuff (this is just my personal preference, ofc)), figure out which ones are currently best, and get them all working together. It’s such a chore. But the game is so worth it... Sorry, my enormous backlog of unplayed Steam games in my library. Instead of playing any of you I now must add a couple hundred more hours into the last good Fallout game!
As for this early question of 'Distopian' vs 'post-apocalyptic' divide: I'd say, if your average joe still has to pay a utility bill (or similar routine commitment) then it's not post-apocalyptic. New Vegas runs into a bit of a problem here in that civilizations are re-establishing itself and so the apocalyptic frontier is kind of receding.
Fallout New Vegas is post post apocalypse. Humanity is rebuilding there's civilization but the change brought by the apocalypse affects said rebuilding
Personally, I loathe the appeal to human nature. I don't believe we can step outside of history and examine how we would behave in some mythological state, be it Hobbes's war-of-all against all or Rousseau's Nobel Savage. Any apocalypse will be the apocalypse of some specific place in some specific time and place, with norms and conventions that will influence how people react to said apocalypse. Humanity is just too complex for such an artificial framework, which, to me, is nothing but a lazy debating technique.
Literally once you got to Gurren Lagann I stopped the video, and binge watched the rest of the series because I put it off half way through for the longest time. Then I came back to finish this and mention all this. No regrets!
I feel like MAGA should've gotten a shoutout in this video. Talking about an obsession with the past, how symbols take on a life of their own, and that MAGA represents an imagined idealistic past that never existed(much like fantasy novels). Also, Jack Saint jsdt loves talking about fascism, so yeah; come on! We need a MAGA episode now!
It's an interesting example because it's a *pre*-apocalyptic[1] example of "old world blues" and textbook fascism[2] also. [1] writing this in August 2020, your mileage may vary [2] hopefully this isn't controversial to anyone reading this, if so check "ur-fascism" by Umberto Eco for reference
It's pretty fitting that humanity is beset by climate change, an apocalypse that requires peace, cooperation, and sustainability to solve, while very few of these post-apocalyptic movies show much of how to rebuild a society in that way.
Wanted to say that I really admired the thought and nuance you put into this video, I can see how much passion you have for the subject and I think this is one of your strongest pieces.
i kinda wish there were more eastern influences in this so far (about halfway thru, i do see gurren laggaan tho). for instance, shin megami tensei is _all_ about the apocalypse and what's left behind...also demons! yay.
How? Almost all games (bar a few spinoffs) let you choose to side with whatever ideology you want, and never really paints any particular one as the “right” path.
@@popeprinny4705 Conflicts are presented as a single binary axis, but the two opposing sides are "too extreme" and neutrality is usually the "complete" experience from a gameplay perspective and if there's ever a follow up, neutral is canon (SMT 1 to 2, SMT 4 to Apocalypse)
Well yeah, you get more gameplay in neutral because you have to shut down both the law and chaos sides, and the gameplay you get is minimal (1 extra dungeon and boss at most). The main flaw of neutral is that it won’t stop the root problem of the conflict (humanity’s inner flaws in most cases), so it’s obvious that sequels will show how the neutral endings in previous games didn’t really fix anything.
@@popeprinny4705 Neutral isn't perfect, but when the games take a "no right side" approach because each ending is a different flavor of fucked, it still ends up sending the message "both sides equally bad" and neutrality comes across as the most level headed option for being non extremist. Also 4 Apocalypse, the most recent entry, is just blatant neutrality stanning with chaos and law being joke endings. If you applied SMT's message to real life politics you'd end up with "the left is too extreme left and the right is too extreme right and they're both equally bad"
I originally skipped over this video when it came out because the topic just didn't really interest me. But after seeing the community posts about how much work you put into it I figured I owed it to you to watch it even if it got a little boring. I'm glad I was wrong this is a great video I hope there are more people like me who come back to it if they didnt give it a chance before
the new california republic does have slavery with prison labor, it's what the powder gangers escaped from. they were being forced to put down rail for trains, if i remember right, before taking the prison over.
I feel like SMT games would be a good thing to look at for post-apocalyptic narratives, as the series relies on the player fighting for an ideology they choose to fight for
I think this might be your best video yet. Insightful commentary on a wealth of different stories, messages, ideologies, and ideas. From one Jack to another - I salute you sir. Keep up the excellent work. And should the end times come, I promise; I won’t eat you.
The idea that we become animals as soon as all the utilities are gone is so fucking wild to me. We built the utilities from nothing! Why would we not just build a new society? We always have done that in the past?
Mr House is one of the most fascinating Fallout characters, in my opinion. His entire plan is to absorb all the resources, manpower and power that he can access, in the structure and processes of the old capitalist American society, and use that to give humanity a brand new opportunity, restarting enough of the old world to colonize a new planet and start again. I think what's most interesting about him is the debate around this plan, and how polarising it currently is. Do you put all the resources into a total new start, abandon all that failed and start anew uninfluenced by the old world? Or do you take those same resources and put them back into the old world, try to revive all good and leave the bad buried in the debris, taking it as a drastic reform instead of an entire reset?
@@scratch2086 Moving on means you start living as you used to, your behaviour becomes independent from whatever it is you've moved on from, you've stopped fighting against the fact that it has happened and you accept you can't change it. Letting go means you come to terms with it on an emotional level, when you think about it there's no sentimental pull; you accept what happened and now you don't just live inspite of it but actually start to forget that it ever had a hold on you at all.
Loved this, very glad you decided against a multi-part series. Seeing these differing depictions compared with such immediacy provided a nuanced analysis of the apocalypse genre that I can't remember having seen before.
Regarding Matrix, I've seen an interpretation that says that the point of referencing "Simulacre et Simulation" is to show that the book is (literally in the film) hollow.
Such a joy that even after graduating film school, there's so much cool stuff to learn from creators like you. Keep up this amazing work, I appreciate it. Support Jack on Patreon ya'll!
The end of the video reminds me of the final ending line to the lonesome roads dlc in fallout nv, “It's said war - war never changes. Men do, through the roads they walk.” That throughout the ending of society as we know it and the start of a new cycle, that it is us, truly, who must change. Our weapons, tactics, and political motives though ever-changing, ultimately uphold the same results, thus without a will to force the end of our destructive self-indulgence into what we believe, without challenging and synthesizing a new order, we will not have a changed world. Wonderful video Jack, always looking forward to whatever topic you investigate next. Also: the end song is from Hamtaro: Ham-Hams Unite! For the gbc? I grew up playing a ton of that game because I’d get lost and will never forget that song from Sunflower Market
But if everyone isn't deep down an evil monster, how do I justify my own bad behavior?
Oh..wait...
You can choose to turn marauder in Twilight 2000. But then you die. Even the small logistical support the NATO forces had is now barred to you. The supply guys who repaired your jeep now and then are unavailable. You can try to live off the polish peasants but other marauders get the same idea. And on the other side of the diffused front are the soviets. And at any moment, the communists might decide to take advantage of your new weakness.
I've been saying a thing ever since the first time I was a street kid in 2007. So far no new observations I've made have conflicted with it. The observation I made back then was this: "98% of people are always warning you about how bad 98% of people are."
It's all highly subjective, and people are just all disinclined to trust each other. But when it comes down to it, most people help each other out under most circumstances.
tfw you realize that a healthy human's actions are their own fault
@@theblandcharlie822 Nah, not really lol
@@LisaBeergutHolst
eh
exceptions apply but I felt it necessary to say under this context
Iirc, "Lord of the Flies" wasn't exactly about human nature, but about the behavior of childrens in boarding schools. And how, unlike what "Coral Island" said, those kids who were taught very colonialist and violent values would fight among themselves.
It seemed like a human nature argument to me when I read it, but maybe yours was the intention. Whatever the case, it would still show you how normalized the Hobbsian view of humanity is just by virtue of so many assuming that's what it's saying.
Edit: Not really important, but I'm pretty sure my teacher taught it as a story about human nature, so that might have been why I was so convinced.
@@rileykim6068 Yeah, in the end the fact that peoples read it as human nature mean whatever the intent was is pointless.
Especially when considering the fact that there are only young boys on the island, no girls. I think is shows that he wasn’t trying to make a statement about what society as a whole might do, just what already privileged, and cruel schoolboys would do. When asked why there are no young girls in the book the author even said that he didn’t feel qualified to write about how a girl might act, as he had never been a girl, and he especially didn’t want people to bring up the topic of sex.
@@rileykim6068 Part of it is that Lord of the Flies was written primarily as a rebuttal to Coral Island, which based its premise on the idea that upper-class british boys, being of superior breeding and education, were superior to "savage races" and were thus more capable than them at forming a functioning society and thriving even in an outwardly hostile land. It was a sort of justification for colonialism, that the british were justified in oppressing natives in foreign lands due to their superior genetics and culture.
Given that the author of Lord of the Flies had taught upper-class british schoolboys for a very long time, he naturally had severe issues with that premise.
Read in isolation, Lord of the Flies of course looks like a Hobbesian critique of human nature. An unfortunate side effect of the book itself having far bigger of an impact on literature than the book that it was specifically a middle finger to.
The version I read in school had a giant-ass foreword which pretty much said the book was about human nature while ranting about ego or something.
nice video bruv
large joel
Jack Saint and Big Joel. I ship it
it really is innit bruv?
Idk why but I find it so awesome knowing people I love and listen to also listen to each other!
Like omg we are all in the same cool club 🤩🥳
Who would have thought, that my other favorite video essayist leftist TH-camr watches my favorite video essayist leftist TH-camr.
As a Lord of The Flies stan I feel compelled to point out that William Golding wasn't trying to say anything negative about overall human nature but specifically about the nature of imperialist, white, upper-class male privilege. The boys are all very specifically from privileged upbringings and used to being able to have their needs met by and showcasing their power over those below them. Placed in an environment where there is no hierarchy to benefit them, they soon begin abusing the least privileged among them to try and reestablish one. His issue is with the rich, not human nature in general.
@Miguel Pimentel bjebifewbewfbiubiucs White privilege still plays a part in those systems, though? But it might not be the focus for this one piece of media because of the homogenous race (or lack of other races) in the novel.
Interesting. I’d never considered it that way - I would think the criticism is still relevant as the upper class whiteness is postured by many who read it as reflecting innate human nature. But this shifts the criticism from the author and intent (which is hard to genuinely ascertain) to the broad consensus of the public. If anything, it speaks to how deeply the system centers ruling identities as a story about upper class whites is taken as being about humanity itself.
And why upper class people would behave that way, when they are used to a soft and easy life?
Specifically, he was attempting to subvert a popular trend in children's literature at the where groups of well behaved children get stranded in untamed savage lands and through their ingenuity, cooperation and good proper upbringing as a civilized race bring order and civility to these lands before rescue.
@@DeyvsonMoutinhoCaliman simple childish impotence
When you're completely basing your worldview on thinking that it's natural and good for you to be pampered, it makes sense that you'd lash out when reality challenges you
Then you have people like Jack or Roger who end up regaining their place of privilege by stepping over rhe people below them. And that's how hierarchies form
I feel like your sponsor was a dare, either someone was dared in their marketing department, or Big Joel dared you to take the offer, or both.
Manscape dared him up do it, and if he did he'd get money.
I already forgot what his first pun was but remember that it was pretty good, the second one being blahblah funk/yadayada junk. So, making parts of the ad memorable IS doing something right.
Although...I AM writing this comment with the video paused. Maybe I'd've completely forgot the ads if I could sit through such a long YT video...
Well, it worked, I clicked the link to see if it was real.
@@idsbraam Trimming your junk hairs? Yeah, that's a real thing, man.
So. I come from a fallen socialist country. When I was a kid we read this story for class called "the train in the snow" it details a train full of school children getting stuck in a massive blizzard on their way to a school trip and everybody down to their abilities pitching in to help this coal powered train to get to it's destination. it's grueling but the kids pull through. For a lot if us, working together to make something impossible happen is second nature. Mind you,I was about 8-9 when this lesson took place.
Was the nation still socialist whenever they told that story?
@vomittie op probably just means socialist as in eastern bloc, but lets be pedantic about someone elses home country why dont we.
@vomittie The USSR was state Capitalist, that's how Leninism works, Lenin himself has stated it was State Capitalist.
Dude, don't talk about thinks you are clearly clueless about. Your are just exposing yourself.
If only more americans thought the same way.
@@1997lordofdoom i doubt regular shoolchildren are "the state government" or "political officers" tho, if anyone could hold the values communist countries proposed it would be the ones educated under its values
Aiming for the 10 minute mark to get that as revenue I see.
@dftfujd dsrjdh Earning and subsequently spending ass revenue is hte only ethical consumption under capitalism.
Wow. Original
8
@@cheekybum1513 Originality is overrated. I mean, look at you, using the internet like millions of other people, wearing clothes (hopefully) and living in a house of some kind like most humans in recorded history; such an unoriginal poseur, right? Bet you consume food and water to not die, too.
@@blarg2429 DON'T JUDGE ME!
"Order and chaos have always been a false dichotomy, asserted to demonize the 'bad violence' and authorize the 'good violence." absolutely bangs as a quote and I've never seen it expressed so well.
I love the juxtaposition on post-apocalyptic larps; first we build a town together and help each other get dressed in our best wastelander outfits, then shoot and rob each other as no one can trust each other, while still trying to make the best game for everyone.
"the lord of the flies" was a subversion of "the coral island", an imperialist (and racist) story. lotf was written more to expose the arrogance of the british high class as a destructive behavior. sorry it's just irritating to me that no one seems to add this context when they want to criticize lotf; i think it's important to mention that although it was about "human nature" it was more specifically about imperialist behavior. anyway have a good day jack
Also 20 grade school city kids who don't know how to survive at a basic level vs 6 teens who know how to grow a garden.
The problem with such an allegory is that if you use something that exists/could exist in the real world as an analogy for something else, your story can easily sound like it's about the thing it's literally about and not the thing it's actually about. Especially once the work is removed from its original cultural context.
I thought it was about the masculinity of young boys and how they treat each other, but imperialism also makes sense
@@Primalstrawberry a bit of both. i think Golding said lotf wouldn't work the same if the genders were switched
I think this a great intentional context and I love that. But I was taught this book as if it was about human nature at 15, and it messed me up a lot, lol.
"Let's talk about Hegel"
*continues to crawl into the fetal position and mumble something about dialectics*
"Let's talk about Hegel"
*waits 30 minutes for Jack to talk about New Vegas*
@@AnonYmous-bb7tl Can't complain. The best payoff needs the best setup.
At least we're not talking about Stephen Pinker anymore lmao.
It's hegelian dialectics, not personal animosity
even years after coming to the realization that the selfish apocalypse is a fantasy and humanity is inherently kind, every time i hear about these real world examples i can't help but tear up.
Well, that is something interesting I find. I think it's a true statement that the vast majority of people want to do good, however, morality is subjective.
Someone wanting to do the "good" thing in their mind very well could mean genocide, so on the scale of a global societal collapse..... the minority of near objectively morally wrong people get their time to shine.
Um so South Sudan and Libya exists
The Rwandan genocide isnt even that old once you otherize people violence against them gets a bit justified
The examples he gives at the beginning of the video have no relevance to what a post-apocalyptic society might turn into. If a localized disaster strikes, people know help is coming. They will work together to get through this "temporary" setback until the State arrives and helps to get everything back to normal. We have no real examples of what might happen if the State NEVER arrives because the localized disaster wasn't local, but global.
Even if most humans in such a situation band together cooperatively it just takes a well-armed, hostile group (maybe influenced by media like Mad Max or Fallout) to turn everything to shit.
Also, the closest we have is to a widespread disaster that dismantled the State was maybe in WW2 when the Nazis or the USSR invaded countries and began committing genocide. Sure, there were good people who did what they could to save lives but on the other hand, plenty willingly helped to kill innocent people so they could take their stuff.
@Morphing Taxi The USSR invaded the Baltic States and began a process of committing genocide on their people. Deported their population to Siberia, and killed thousands, then began repopulating the Baltics with Russians. I don't see how you can qualify their actions as anything other than an attempted genocide
@@BoxStudioExecutive i would also like a source
This video made me remember Train to Busan (EXCELLENT zombie film btw), and how the main characters and some people of the group are compassionate and wish to help each other. The big burly dad man actually lets himself DIE in order to let a stranger and his daughter get out safely, his now widowed wife eventually adopting the daughter out of a genuine desire to make sure she’s safe.
But there is self-interested hateful group mentality: It’s only when the big successful CEO gets annoyed that he’s inconvenienced and tries to sacrifice people, even betraying them, that he rallies others to become as self-serving as him.
Well, imo boiling the CEO down to "annoyed because inconvenienced", while fair, is a little reductive. The CEO is himself really scared & wants to run home to his mommy. The problem is that he selfishly considers his desire to make sure his mum is okay more important than anyone else's desires to check in on their loved ones or, uh, not die lol. His inability to recognize the humanity of other people & to see it as valuable/of equal weight to his own is what makes him the true monster of the film.
@@sweetpeabee4983 And how capitalism and class warfare dehumanize us towards our fellow man
@Rev Oendetta You about to go into that whole human nature bullshit argument?
@Rev Oendetta ?
@Rev Oendetta It evolved out of mercantilism and became an idea during the industrial revolution due to the mercantile classes accumulation of wealth, an increase in humanism and many other socio-economic factors as well as the rise of the state.
Hobbinsion thought was highly influnential and capitalism started to gain traction from desire for social mobility and many many other factors.
Capitalism was not the prevailing system throughout human history, noir even a thought for a long long time with nobels and only the mercantile class holding real wealth
Or people living together and exchanging things between each other freely in gift economies or barter economy's and much more.
Needless to say, if you thought humans were doing capitalism back in the stone age your the definition of wrong, it is incredibly recent in the ways we would recognize it.
Personally I always felt like Caesar knew full well that what he was practicing wasn't /really/ Hegelian Dialectics and that he was just trying to manipulate you into agreeing with/supporting him by prattling on about something smart and intellectual sounding in the way dictators are somewhat prone to doing.
just wanna mention the Netflix show "the society" it's a teen drama inspired by Lord of the flies but instead of them being nasty to each other the teens band together and share resources and the main antagonists of the series are a rich boy who is mad that he no longer had the "status" he used to and is forced to SHARE what he has and like, a fascist. I haven't really seen anyone talking about it tho.
YES!!! i love that show and i wonder why noonee ever chucks it in!!!
The thing to remember about Lord of the Flies is that none of the boys were out of their early teens, some were very young and are divided right from the beginning of the book. A communal structure is formed but collapses not because of any inherent human nature, but because of the unpreparedness of the proper English schoolboy (or, by proxy, any self-confident "civilised" person) in a situation of sudden chaos and lack of control, and the snowball effect it can have on a group psyche. Consider the fact that by the second act, the boys had failed to signal a ship, accidentally caused the death of a child and set part of the jungle alight; and that the situation was created in the first place when they were evacuated during a cold war escalation. It's a worst-case scenario, but incredibly convincing in the way it's written and plotted and has (I think) unmatched insight into the behaviour and thought of schoolboys and forced group isolation.
@@erikruder3360 Lord of the Flies was meant to be a parody on the British upperclasses and their views in the 50's. Widely on colorism, the kids were not devolving, they were choosing to behave in an "uncivilized" manner as an excuse to be cruel.
That would be a really good piece of socialist propaganda. You should take that to China, and not return.
Edit: A moron later in the comment thread insists that because China is actually a Communist state, their ties with socialism are somehow irrelevant. I suppose I can't fault idiots for not understanding what *Propaganda* is or even that China describes themselves as a "People's Republic" as outlined by socialist theory. That distortion of political reality is what makes it propaganda, China quite regularly partakes socialist messaging.
@@metaljugger Hey look everybody! This guy thinks China's a Socialist Republic! So VeRy EnLiGhTeNeD, LeTs alL cLaP FoR ThE BiGgEsT BrIaN.
When you mentioned Borderlands it actually made me think for a second. While Pandora mimics the aesthetics of the traditional apocalypse the reasoning for why the world is so violent and unhinged is actually contrary to the Hobbesian idea that people are inherently selfish and savage.
Pandora is a lawless wasteland BECAUSE of authorities like the Mega Corporations of Dahl, Hyperion, and Atlas. That their short sited profit seeking would cause them to abandon countless civilians, soldiers, employee's, and enforced laborers many of which were former criminals or mentally unwell the moment their venture became unprofitable. That these people would not only have to fend for themselves against not just the violent nature of the planet but the massive power vacuums, abundance of weapons, and toxic material that made the planet the perfect tinder box of a shit show. Not to mention how the super corps would continue to profit from the violence on Pandora by feeding the population more and more weapons but invasions such as the one from Atlas in BL1 and Hyperion in BL2 would only kick the hornets nest demolishing any manner of stability the planet had developed.
Even in BL3 it's mentioned that the Cult of the Vault, the main bandit faction you fight against, draws it's numbers from the countless broken worlds like Pandora across the galaxy. That the Mega Corps are solely responsible for the creation of this toxic environment and as the game itself puts it, countless "human wreckage" that are the mentally unwell, physically scarred, and abandoned populations of bandits in the universe.
It always bothered me how Borderlands while being known best as the "funny meme looter game" it has the potential for some really good themes but it just never goes far enough to reach it and it's frustrating to no end but hey I guess I'd rather have a hypothetically interesting story at the end of the day.
Thank you for bringing this up, as a huge fan of the series it brings me joy that these stories are being told but it also scares me in that borderlands isn't even that far as a realistic extreme of a post-capitalist society, where there is no longer even regulation to stop the megacorporations from puppeteering the average individual. Even the 'enemies' in the series are abandoned corporate slaves left to band together and kill in the atruggle for survival that is life on Pandora. I sometimes feel bad thinking about that while I'm playing, the fact that most of these 'savage bandits' I'm killing were once just people, forced to work on distant colonies for the profit of manipulative CEOs like Jack, while I come in as a treasure hunter entirely disregarding the situation of the place I'm coming to loot. It's worrying to think that the hellscape these games depicts isn't too far from possible, and I think we really need to consider media like this more when looking at the path of our society. Even 'funny shooter haha' games can provide much needed foresight
well hot damn Imma comment on this to make sure that I have this 2 comments saved..in a way does anyone know how to save youtube comments in a better way as dammit I enjoyed reading both the comments. And well they are good comments to keep as it will keep me thinking.
Just what I thought when he mentioned Borderlands
More proof that borderlands is the greatest series in existence.
"When war is between USA fanboys, Ancient Rome fanboys, and Elon Musk, I understand where they're coming from" is the best line. My ribs are still fucking hurting
The big irony here is I just watched Mother's Basement's "Japan Sinks is Awesome, Actually" video, which talks about how Japan Sinks is great for bucking the trend of Mad Max-style nihilistic loner survivors by showing a disaster where most of the people come together in adversity, while at the same time, death comes completely out of the blue to the people who are arguably the best survivalists for no reason other than bad luck. Apparently, a lot of people hate the show because it doesn't engage in the morality play tropes of the greedy survivalist dying or people going straight for the "Leathers and Feathers".
Your first grave mistake was watching anything created by Mr. Basement. Also, not sure that is irony.
@@xBINARYGODx ok
A lot of complaints i saw mostly came from holy fuck are so many of the characters annoying and stupid. The only tolerable characters barely speak. Also the fact it was essentially an ad for the tokyo Olympics.
@@raze_
The "ad for the Tokyo Olympics" part was one of the things discussed in the video. He was saying the non-Japanese people getting on reddit saying that are missing that this is a show aimed at the Japanese, and to a Japanese person, the end credits are showing all the things that would be lost, not just hyping Japan to the Japanese.
The part about characters that use English interchangeably with Japanese is also discussed because the whole show comes down pretty hard against some of the xenophobic tendencies of Japan. The fact that Go is half-Filipino and sprinkles English into his speech explicitly gets the group left to die by the ultra-nationalists at one point. So yeah, their speech may be cringe, but it's there for important plot reasons. When characters exist to represent different strata of society, the fact that they don't act the way you want them to isn't really a flaw in the story.
Im glad someone mentioned this! After watching MB’s vid and the anime I came back to this vid scrolled through the comments specifically to see if anyone else was talking about this! xD
The quotation at 56:02: "It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism" is a paraphrase of Fredric Jameson's famous assertion, “It seems to be easier for us today to imagine the thoroughgoing deterioration of the earth and of nature than the breakdown of late capitalism; perhaps that is due to some weakness in our imaginations,” which appears in his book The Seeds of Time (1992). The simplified version comes from Slavoj Žižek, who punches it up, admittedly, while losing some of its intellectual heft. Hashtag Department of Credit where Credit Is Due.
Calling House "Elon Musk" is highly offensive to House
At least House created his own shit.
House is a fictional character with no thoughts or feelings; he has no honor for you to defend, because he is merely an idea. Moreover, Musk is probably the closest thing to House that's actually possible.
House is a man of special ideas who can theoretically fix the unfixable with the help of the extreme wealth he got by being cool and smart; Elon Musk is a normal human like the rest of us whose job it is to pretend to fit the above description, but the key detail is that every possible human in every possible scenario also falls short of the whole Great Man notion that House is an example of. If Edwin House were a real man, he'd be as pathetic as Elon Musk, I promise you.
@@blarg2429 Considering what House *actually* looks like, I don't think that he's any less pathetic than Musk.
Let's be real here, Musk would've sided with House.
@@aaron552au using physical weakness and appearance of a body as an argument against his character is one of the most bigoted approaches you could take.
This is why Conservative thought is often said to be founded in fear and insecurity - It's entirely based in a Hobbsian view that creates an inherent distrust in humankind and rejects the concept of mutual benefit.
@split haven Hey buddy:
"But take away our rules and societal and cultural norms"
None of your examples are in any way related to this. Everything you followed-up with was a cultural norm of its time, and state-enforced rules to keep it that way.
Congratulations on being part of the problem by continuing to grasp onto your baseless cynicism. Now, go try to balance it by watching medical professionals and community members supporting those in need during this pandemic, each and every one proving you wrong by demonstrating their own 'cultural norms'.
@@TheCountOfMommysCrisco What about the French Revolution? Neither the cultural norm or state enforced.
I am a Paranoid bastard, but you don't live to die surrounded by friends and family without sleeping with a gun in easy reach. and your neighbors happy for your help.
Except Anthropological studies of how early man lived and behaved paints a picture of a world that much more closely resembles Hobbes's version of the 'state of nature' than that of Locke.
Because chaze was a great place to live, ruled only by human nature.
"There is no beginning and end, only a series on transitory states" that quote hit me in the heart for some reason. thanks for the great video!
Ok but those teenagers that got stranded and cared for their friend was wholesome
unless I’m mistaken, the splint they made for his leg when it got broken/injured was so good he healed better/faster than he would have at the time getting actual medical help. people are awesome and so are those kids.
Factos 👍
(Paraphrased) "We'll do your work, and you can lie here relaxing like a king"
One more thing about Gurren Lagann and Rosiu: after Simon defeats the Anti-Spirals, he goes into a self-imposed exile and leaves Rosiu in charge. Rosiu goes on to make peace with all the other races in the universe and the implication is that this is what will prevent the Spiral Nemesis from occurring. Simon's hard-headedness was needed to cast of the chains of authority, but Rosiu's restraint was what was needed to build the world that came after.
exactly , thats what i missed in this video
Yep, I think this was the show's way to reconcile with its own premise of there being an inherent danger to unchecked ambition and expansion. Kamina's belief to always reach for the heavens no matter what was a thesis, the stifling of life that the anti-Spirals believed to be necessary was antithesis, and Simon and Rosiu simply knowing when to stop unchecked expansion after defeating the anti-spiral's overreaction to spiral lifeforms was the synthesis.
I also feel like the opening where "all the lights in the heaven are our enemy now" is like the bad ending AU where Simon never stops fighting and keeps trying to expand humanity to the point of total destruction that the Anti-Spirals feared.
I agree with your point and I wish that Jack had brought it up. He tries to compare Gurren to World Without End and how that film comes off as a manifest destiny justification of killing those they deem savage, but in Gurren Lagann some of the villains of the surface that they defeated ultimately join them in their fight with the anti-spiral and the whole reason they originally kept humanity restricted was out of fear of the spiral nemesis and the anti-spiral threatening their existence if they grew too big. The anti-spirals themselves are essentially cosmic eco fascists. They are united in the belief that life is a danger to the balance of nature and needs to be strictly controlled and have completely sacrificed their own individuality to that end. Team Dai Gurren represents a belief in people that they can change things for the better without needing to sacrifice one's freedom and individuality. And in the end he leaves things in the hands of Rossiu to help reform society. I think Jack just sort of plainly attaching the concept of manifest destiny onto Gurren Lagann without elaborating and analyzing it more was a mistake.
@@getschwifty5537 I always thought the opening was basically the original way the Anti-Spiral fight was supposed to appear, with all of the "lights" representing the Anti-Spiral fleet
"Talk about Fallout! Talk about Fallout! Talk about Fallout!"
--- Me, for the entire first half of this video
same
You know, I've watched this multiple times now, and I really think it might just be your opus. There aren't many other video essayists out there who can make something this grand, ambitious, and profoundly insightful. Keep up the good work, big brain take man!
As someone living in Minneapolis, participating in the uprising after George Floyd, this "the worst of humanity will be exposed" line of thinking seems like a naive, schoolboy fantasy. That's not what happens, at least not in what I've seen. I've seen mutual aid and hope and the community coming together. It also bothers me that these mob violence scenes never fully show the turn. Anyone who has been in a crowd that has gone from relatively peaceful to destructive understands that turn, it's a visceral thing that everyone can feel, time slows down, senses get heightened.
Just as an example, when the police first started throwing tear gas and flashbangs at the 3rd precinct, the action of them doing that couldn't have been longer than a few minutes, tops, but it felt like it took forever to register we were being attacked and the emotion/vibe of the crowd turned drastically. The I'm not gonna take this shit anymore valve gets turned on for everyone all at once and it's an explosion of hurt and pain and rage. No one was telling anyone what to do, people would ask for help with stuff if they needed it - water for teargas, help lifting things, medical attention, but no one was in charge. I think if anyone would have attempted to take control of other people they would have been laughed off/not listened to. When you are in that situation, you have your power back, there's no reason to give it away.
I agree. At no point during the protests were we a danger to each other, and despite the general rage and pain in the crowd, we were very targeted in our efforts. We were helping each other, not tearing each other down. Like you said, there wasn't leadership so much as unity of purpose.
Screenshoting this for posterity
Exactly, the people with privilege and are AGAINST the protests seem to be showing their worst humanity
Anarchy is only scary to bullies and abusers.
@@dccalling5960 Right, unity of purpose, exactly. Lots of people were doing different things, but it all was for a common goal, everyone just did what they could. Almost like we are all adults who don't need a giant authority figure to get shit done and not hurt each other. I certainly never felt like I was unsafe because of anyone in the crowd, the only danger was the police.
"the legions ideology, as outlined by its leader, is explicitly stated to be based" -Jack Saint
Rossiue isn't able to alter reality at will like those around him, he lacks individual power despite having state-granted power. This could have many different interpretations but to me, he represents someone chained by the status quo that wishes to change it. Unlike most of the other main characters, Rossiue isn't able to do the impossible. However, he still wishes to improve the situation utilizing only the possible. His fault then is that he is working within the definitions and rules of someone else. He's rebelling, but only in the predicted and allowed ways
An interisting fact to note, is that Simon recognises that Rossiue way of thinking is valuable (just after stoping him from kiling himself, i believe). Like, you cannot always be in revolution because your drill would break eventually, you have to stop to cool down from time to time.
@@DarkHunter047 Fight the power is step 1 and not the entire argument, which is why revolutions tend to mess up and just put the same kind of oppressors in power.
@@Horatio787 Yeah, i know.
@@DarkHunter047 Not going to lie, despite saying that the constant rebellion was a key piece of the story for years, I never realized the dual meaning of revolution in this context.
@Spectator 101 I agree, I don't think you can blame Rossiu for not trying to overpower a god. It's a tricky situation as from Rossiu's perspective Simon and the gang are at fault for earning the Anti-spiral wrath through negligence, so it even makes sense that he doesn't then trust them to solve the problem.
Hot take: Fallout 3, Mad Max, The Mist ect. Are 'Apocolyptic' tales, where the larger society is still within the 'apocolypse' and living through the primary trials and dilemmas of 'the event'.
Whereas Fallout NV/1/2, Blade Runner, Logans Run, Judge Dredd ect. Are post-apocalyptic, where the larger and mesium societies have been created with aspects and ideologies of the pre-apocolypse, integrated with the lessons of the apocolypse and managed by a larger and more defined authority.
The way most people use the term, an "apocalypse" is defined as a singular event rather than a process. Even if the society doesn't completely collapse for some time thereafter, there _must_ be a singular point in time pinpointed as _the_ apocalypse, because that's how people define it (and how people instinctively understand history in general).
Fallout 3, Mad Max, The Mist, etc take place while society falls apart, but after "the apocalyptic moment"; they are "post-apocalyptic".
I like to call stories about the societies which rise after the apocalyptic process "post-post-apocalyptic". You mentioned some, but I'd like to also mention The Last of Us (which you've likely heard of) and _Ward_ (the sequel to Wildbow's web novel _Worm,_ which is obviously difficult to discuss without spoilers for one or both novels).
Fallout 3 is considered post-apocalyptic, the direct aftermath and chaos of the end of the world. The apocalypse being the nuclear war itself.
1/2/NV are considered post-post-apocalyptic. The chaos has largely subsided and society is becoming a facsimile of what it once was.
The ncr still allows and even facilitates slavery, in fallout 2 there was a slave pen right outside the capital city and in new vegas theres the NCRCF, which uses prison labor to build infrastructure which is slavery.
The NCR rangers ask you to wipe out the slave pen though, I think they werent taking more direct action because they were trying to convince vault city and other small settlements to assimilate and lacked the strenght to impose their will.
@@ill232 the rangers werent in control of policy and at the time was an independant organization. They might have outlawed it now (I'm not sure if its explicitly stated that they have) but they still facilitate it through prison labor.
Yeah, they're still the best option in the game. They're the closest thing to a stable society.
Also, We have prison slavery right now. Which is horrible, but the NCR had the excuse of the literal fallout.
So yeah, they have their problems. But the other option is ceaser and the murder robot.
Yeetles Law Yeetles Law the free wheeling fourth choice in which you can reject house, the ncr, and the legion and create an independent new vegas whose circumstances and effects are informed by the player choices made throughout the game is very clearly the best option, which was intended by the developers. Also “slavery is justified if its a post nuclear apocalypse” is really fucking cringe. The whole point of being anti-slavery is rejecting all proposed justifications for its practice, fictional or non-fictional. If your argument is that there are sometimes scenarios where slavery is good actually means you are pro slavery. It makes me sus of your “prison slavery is horrible” comment, because you clearly dont believe that wholeheartedly.
I guess, but only using a broader definition of slavery than most people understand the word to mean, since most people associate the word specifically with chattel slavery. Prison labour CAN also be voluntary, in which case it is not slavery, although I haven't played FNV so I don't know how it portrays the prison labour in that world.
Hey, Jack.
I know you probably aren't familiar with it but I'd like to hear your take on "The Eternaut" it's an Argentine comic, really influential in Latin America. It depicts a group of heroes dealing with a sudden alien invasion in Buenos Aires. Which is often analysed as a metaphor for the coups in Latin America and Argentina during that time period, as well as imperialism, colonialism, and capitalism.
The author was a leftist and was forcefully disappeared during the country's last dictatorship in 1977.
That sounds really interesting. I hope Jack takes this suggestion!
I would suggest also to take on the follow-up novel... which was sadly never finished as Oesterheld was "disappeared" before he could.
It's a fantastic work of science fiction, and even someone like me who doesn't care about any form of nationalism, can feel a tinge of pride knowing he was from this land (And a heavy load of shame for what happened to him)
would love to see his take on that - also, thank you for reminding me that it exists lol!
LET'S GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Get back to work!
RO, RO, FIGHT THE POWAH
There's another type maybe, the melancholic apocalypse, but I can only actually think of one example: Yokohama Kaidashi Kikō. Which is a story in a post-ecological collapse world. It's very much a "the time of humanity has ended" type of vibe, but rather than people violently fighting against it, there's acceptance. There are a lot of little clues that there was a period of trying to technology-our-way out of it, but it didn't work and that time has passed and there is acceptance.
Girls' Last Tour and Humanity Has Declined are perhaps two other examples in which there is/was an apocalypse but everyone is pretty chill about it.
Sora no Woto could count too I guess as although it is implied that humanity is in real danger of going extinct due to wars over dwindling resources, the characters don't let it affect them too much.
Its a plot point in a sea of many other ones but Disco Elysium has a climate change analogue that results in acceptance in the few characters that acknowledge it as well. Its not of huge relevance in the proper plot but it adds a level of coming to terms with catastrophes and the resulting loss and grief from personal to societal to global.
@@maxw.2579 I really need to play that game...
A more recent example to add to the pile is Refind Self, the personality test game with robots who are in, shall we say, something of a Nier Automata situation, but there's a lot less fighting. Not zero, but a lot less, and way more melancholoy and focus on 'who you are' versus 'doing something'.
I'm curious as to your opinions of Adventure Time and Nier as a post-apocalypse (and Nier Automata as post-post-apocalypse)
Nier Automata would fit right in, in particular, as like....basically everything talked about here. in particular the recapitulation of the Old World. the robots mimicking aspects of humanity without understanding, and the androids honestly not being much better. the robots recreate monarchy, religious extremism, hedonism, and more.
Adventure Time has a whole arc about humans inhabiting a bubble society rather than risking the radical perils of the post-post-post-post-post apocalypse. I think it fits!
Adventure time is an interesting one... in the wider scope of things, humans were just a short-lived species that caused natural magic to be suppressed, so in a way the apocalypse was actually restoring some sort of balance (in spite of the obvious structural damage)
It seems awfully convenient that a choice between cut throat lawlessness and the state in these apocalyptic stories sure seems to benefit the state 🤔 By not recognizing that people are far more compassionate and helpful in times of crisis, you don’t have to recognize that there’s more compassionate options for the state to use and *should* be using to help the people they’re supposed to represent.
When I heard Noah Gervais I was that pic of Leo pointing.
Appropriate to get him to voice a part about westerns.
I love these crossovers.
I couldn't have imagined a better creator to read that line. I could practically see the road cam
When I heard him I’m I gasped so loud my brother in the next room asked what happened.
Wizard Michael i was doing martial arts and I almost ended up flying through the room because I was doing a kick and just completely lost focus.
"you've probably noticed I haven't talked about Fallout 3 and 4" -- I was more focused on the lack of discussion of 1 and 2
An hour of Jack...yes please. *1 hr 10 min later* children of men is one of my favorite post apocalypse & dystopian movies. Its themes reflect so much of our current realty. And yes a full video of mad max fury road would be appreciated
So as it turns out humans tend to help each other when the going gets rough, like leaving a comment on a fantastically written and performed video essay to boost engagement!
This video honestly left me wanting an analysis of how different films portray the future as a concept, whether that's post-apocalyptic or not. It could be nice to have a comparison between portrayals of what could be defined as two opposite ways in which society could undergo massive change.
What does it say about masculinity that we can't take below the belt grooming seriously unless we buy "The Lawnmower"
I'm sorry but that name is so "MAN" that I can't help but laugh.
Like gendered deodorant brands, right? That shit is endlessly funny to me.
Sounded like he was also trying not to laugh too
It’s so pathetic. I honestly feel so embarrassed when companies do this shit. It’s so juvenile. I feel like I’m being treated as some idiotic child who must play pretend soldier in order to do anything, rather than an adult.
What else were they gonna call it? The Nutshaver 9000? The Dickgroomer 3.0? The Splendiferous Spunkbag Snipper??
Honestly, I was a weird super-smart nerdy kit growing up who learned about all the historical and systemic bullshit behind our view of gender when I was like 9 (Having some trouble remembering because of basically fugue because I had a really fucked-up childhood) and I was caught off-guard by that. I had a reaction that I can best describe as "I knew it was this bad and that shit like this is inevitable on a purely cognitive level, but then again, on a purely cognitive level, I know that race is also bullshit, but that doesn't mean that I don't get all weird when I hear about nonwhite/Jewish things for too long from when I was a weird nazbol shut-in".
I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that apocalyptic depictions of people turning into self interested psychopaths devoid of empathy or cooperation is unrealistic and overdone. I've been griping about the walking dead for this very reason for years... That said I don't think the comparison between a blizzard and a situation like that in The Mist is a very apt one. A hard and rapid breakdown of all signs of a greater social order with no idea of scope in terms of time or geography with a seemingly implacable potentially supernatural threat is very different from that of a temporary and well understood setback in societal functioning like that of a blizzard. People understand a blizzard... They understand it will eventually end, and that it hasn't erased all of civilization. They understand what they need to do to survive one. They also understand that they'll likely be held culpable for their behavior after things return to normal. I don't think anyone alive today knows what happens when there's no "normal" to return to.
Given humans are social animals and our survival strategy has been to live in groups for longer than we have been human... Nah, social cooperation in times of need are instinctual. Will some groups be more prone to attacking other groups? Definitely - especially if there's a lack of resources and another group nearby with resources. But they'll still be banding together in groups in the first place and relying on other members of the group for their own survival.
Notably, chimpanzees will band together and attack other nearby groups of chimpanzees if there's a lack of resources in the area and the other group's territory has food. Chimps will also hunt and eat meat from time to time.
And there's also the example of early settlers on the US Prairie. They banded together and helped each other out when there were wildfires and tornadoes. There wasn't much in the way of government support or law enforcement in the area at the time. Granted, they limited that help to other white ppl, but that's more of the in-group vs out-group behavior that I would expect to see in such a scenario - especially in that era.
Jack, apparently the director meant for The Mist to be released in Black and White. The producers decided to release it in color because they were worried that audiences can’t understand black and white films apparently. it’s much more atmospheric, and creepy. the effects look better too ha
Didn't Darabont make the Mist to be a satire of 50s sci fi films that were just propaganda in a thinly veiled disguise? Hence why he wished for it to be in black and white.
Daniel Dyson haha yeah they just talked about it on a Sardonicast episode it was really interesting
So "masses don't know better" rhetoric was used in production too, ironic
If it helps, the blu ray has the black and white version on a separate disc!
Was happy to hear Noah Caldwell-Gervais in this video. As a huge Half-Life fan, his Half-Life retrospective was one of my favorite videos for years, and I’ve been watching a lot of his videos since then. Good cameo.
The bit about people helping each other after the blizzard kinda gave me wholesome goosebumps
An important detail I think you might be missing about Gurren Lagann is that after liberating the spiral races, Simon leaves Rossiu in charge and hands over his core drill to essentially the next generation. The idea that it's perpetuating a climate change denial is challenged by the fact that the spiral nemesis is real and would happen if it weren't for the restraint that someone like Rossiu is uniquely capable of showing. The heroes' point to the anti-spiral is not "The spiral nemesis isn't real" or "The spiral nemesis isn't a problem we need to worry about" it's that they need to believe in our ability to avoid it. The final exchange between Simon and the Anti-spiral is the Anti-spiral saying (after being defeated) "if this is how it must be, protect the universe at all costs" and Simon responds, "Of course. Believe in us, too." The spiral nemesis is a problem that they need to solve, but it is worth trying to solve it in a way that doesn't require the oppression of anyone.
Kamina's view of never giving in and always doing whatever you want no matter the consequences is shown to be flawed and that the true solution is to combine that drive to improve society with the more level-headed approach of Rossiu and to some extent Nia. Even though the fandom is pretty shitty to Rossiu, I think the show is ultimately supportive of him and most of the fans just missed the point. He is the best suited to running things, he just messed up the first time because he forgot Kamina's lesson of always striving for the best possible society. After Simon demonstrates this to him, he is perfectly equipped to be the new leader of humanity, making peace with all the other spiral races and establishing a utopia.
Sorry for writing so much, but, as you might glean from my avatar, Gurren Lagann is my favorite anime and one of my favorite pieces of media ever. I don't consider flawless by any stretch of the imagination, in fact I can think of several anime that I consider technically better, its favorite status is more due to the personal emotional impact it has had on me. I am fully willing to recognize its flaws, but I don't think this is one.
Plenty of climate deniers have changed tunes to "climate change is real, but we can't/shouldn't do anything about it/humanity will prevail no matter what/god will save me, fuck you"
The Breadtube obsession with Hotline Miami continues
I loved how the meta-narrative of it relates to the subject of this essay AND it being a banger
Do you have any other references of bread tube talkin about hotline Miami?
@@Nanook128 Folding Ideas talked about it a while ago, and other tubers have used its music.
@@Nanook128 hbomb hasn't mentioned it yet, but he used a ton of its music in either his dark souls 2 or bloodborne video
What's breadtube? Im outta the loop
You're right that Mad Max stands out for it's resource-war slow decline instead of a sudden apocalypse. This is exactly why I think we. NEED. A film adaptation of _Parable of the Sower._ Octavia Butler's climate crisis meltdown of society is so compelling because it is so believable. Once you've read it you can always see that world just a few steps of backsliding from where we are.
An hour and eighteen minutes... We've been truly blessed on this day
Yikes... I'm still recovering from Hbomberguy's video/feature-length movie....
homestuck
That's why the call him a saint
I am rather fond of the longer breadtube videos as well.
One note about Fallout: New Vegas. The NCR do practice slavery: forced prison labor. That's the plotline of a minor faction, the former chain-gang, the Powder Gangers.
I prefer the pronunciation "Cheeser" since it's the funniest way to say Caesar
Cheeser salad does sound appetizing.
Hail cheeser. Salad.
@@everythingisathing364 mmmmm
As a classicist, this is my favorite thing ever
Still call him Kaiser, for the exact same reason I respect people's names and pronouns, even while punching his shitty fashy face to death. A silly take, perhaps, but, yeah...
About OTHER apocalyptic media... Banner Saga? Lots of interesting ideas there: Apocalypse occurring in an already post apocalyptic society, the literal death of gods as an authority for people to put faith in, the unpreparedness of leaders in replacing those gods as beacons of faith, apocalypse imagined as a communal struggle rather than an individualist one, the struggle to juggle morality with material needs, immigration politics, a little feminism, an otherwise completely demonized antagonist group being revealed to be very human.
It’s also a tactics game, like XCOM, except much more reasonable.
aw im glad someone actually mentioned the banner saga. it has so much to say and its so beautifully made. i love how it portrays people and the kind of group effort it takes to keep going at the end of the world and its a story i really needed, and one that i appreciate even more after playing it again. plus the music is awesome, really captures the melancholic strength that the story puts out.
As far as anime go, Yokohama Shopping Trip (Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou) and Girls' Last Tour (Shoujo Shuumatsu Ryokou) offer rather unique takes on the whole post-apocalypse thing.
There are a few things to unpack here, as I think aloud (as it were) to myself in silence.
Golding's central thesis regarding the boys of _The Lord of the Flies_ reflects his lived experience as a teacher ... of the upper classes of white British schoolboys. He had remarked, regarding their portrayals in children's literature, that their disposition was more cut-throat, more animalistic, and that the conditioning of British schoolboys to defer to social authorities would lead to this destructiveness when they are removed.
And he has a point.
In looking at colonial Australian history, very often it was the absence of such authorities that enabled genocide. At the "local level," the poison-loaced flour, the rape of children due to the virgin cure myth, et alia, these acts were enabled by the absence of such authorities, and the "free" application of authority away from oversight was a key factor in the later Coniston massacre of 1928.
And all this leads to anarchy.
Essentially, anarchy is the absence of formalised, even ossified hierarchies of leadership. That is, anarchy is often the absence of the state. And it is in the state's best interest to enjoy narratives that portray the absence of the state as a utopia for poltical nihilism. This is why such Hobbesian fantasias exist.
And I guess that this results in its own form of dialectic: the state destroys itself because it destroys its alternative, the same way that anarchism implodes through its denial of the hierarchic realities of society. Hierarchies tie small, personal communities into one, so that the stronger a hierarchy, such as that of the federalised state or of a public service/exectutive branch of government, the more resistant it is to sudden, even apocalyptic collapse.
The state needs to reconcile with anarchy, and vice versa. Each one is, therefor, the other's shadow, to be integrated with rather than eliminated.
And yes, I know, there are some, nay many out there who dispute the notion of genocide occuring in colonial Australia, usually on the predicate that the absence of the idea , rather, the term, made the idea unthinkable. It's almost as though saying the lack of the word 'Caesar Salad' precluded the idea of inventing the Caesar Salad. And yet....
Given the ideological importance of nostalgia and the inability to think beyond what once was, that almost (well, strictly speaking it is) Lovecraftian notion of "The past is real, it's all that exists," it is important to realise that the Fallout series embeds within itself the very critique of that notion. The cyclic nature of that universe arises clearly out of the failures to think beyond the past. It chases its own tail, its own future, yet progresses nowhere. Even that image recycles the Wheel of Fortune and the tragic failure of those that seek to break it, even escape from it.
It's almost as if such cycles return eternally, until, even unless, some radical break, some apocalyptic shift occurs, some road to Damascus moment (a single apocalyptic moment) or some long dark night of the soul (an ongoing apocalyptic sequence). It's almost as if some centrifuge spins from foreverness unto foreverness, keeping asunder the red dragon, the white dragon, the darkenening dove and the (en)lightening one. Keeping apart, that is, any chance of a synthesis of two antagonistic theses....
Hegel: The Jack Saint of his day
These are my favorite kinds of media videos, just a romp through philosophy and ideology.
Been rewatching Battlestar Galactica this year-my first revisit in ten years or so!-and while the premise of the 00s show says more about our fractured priorities post-9/11, it's interesting now to see it as one of the more interesting takes on the post-apocalypse, as one of the main concerns of the show is the effort it takes to keep the old societal structures intact vs. the usual stories about what rises from the ashes after those structures have been fully erased.
While that seems to place it on the "dystopia" side of the sort-of spectrum that you mentioned, I'd still argue "post-apocalypse" for BSG as the catastrophe is literally world-ending. Planets laid to waste and billions dead, 50,000 people left on several dozen ships. What happens next, by definition, has to be a response to the end of the world!
Spaghetti Westerns: Now we don't only have a a Good and a Bad... we also have an Ugly
I only say this because you encouraged us to do this in the comments: I am blown away that you didn't mention Postman. Nowhere are the supposed dichotomies you are describing laid more bare.
What's the Postman about or is that a certain character in one of these stories?
@@scratch2086 The Postman is a book by David Brin and a movie based on that book by Kevin Costner. The movie is a dumber, more patriotic version of the book, but it surprisingly keeps the core themes alive. It's an illustration of the faliciousness of primitivist-fascist ideology and its view on humans strikes just the balance between Hobbesian egoism, which the antagonist faction subscribes to, and Rousseauian noble savage idealism, as it describes a post-apocalyptic society rebuilding itself on nothing but the abolishment of the illusion of heteronymity.
I recommend the movie if you're fine with the excrutiating lengths and sap of later Costner movies, on which I personally thrive.
You got Noah Caldwell-Gervais on this! Just made an awesome video even better haha love your work :D
At 53:40 when you look around because the Wild Wasteland perk activated, its because there’s a reference from Monty Python’s The Life of Brian written on the wall next to you in red paint.
That little snippet from the Old Word Blues DLC ending tugged at my heartstrings so much. I never wanted New Vegas to end. Amazing video!
I NEED a Jack Saint video about Neon Genesis Evangelion. Please...
I want one on RahXephon too. Just to mess with either fandom.
Okay, but how does one talk about "Lord of the Flies" without talking about how the author apparently meant it as a response to the idea of White English/Western European exceptionalism (the idea that white, English children would be inherently more civilized in that type of disaster situation than children of any other group)?
Easily. In high schools all over America at least there's none of that reading, and I've only ever heard of it from this specific comment section. I can see how that might be true after being shown the interpretation, but the author's intentions are easily hidden.
I was playing New Vegas when I saw the notification. Guess who’s both playing and watching at the same time lmaooo
Damnit.
He mentioned New Vegas.
Now I’m gonna have to spend days reinstalling New Vegas.
Every few years you have to go find all the best realism mods, community patches, graphical overhauls, etc (ie all the things that make the game “vanilla+” without adding dumb stuff (this is just my personal preference, ofc)), figure out which ones are currently best, and get them all working together.
It’s such a chore.
But the game is so worth it...
Sorry, my enormous backlog of unplayed Steam games in my library. Instead of playing any of you I now must add a couple hundred more hours into the last good Fallout game!
As for this early question of 'Distopian' vs 'post-apocalyptic' divide: I'd say, if your average joe still has to pay a utility bill (or similar routine commitment) then it's not post-apocalyptic. New Vegas runs into a bit of a problem here in that civilizations are re-establishing itself and so the apocalyptic frontier is kind of receding.
Fallout New Vegas is post post apocalypse. Humanity is rebuilding there's civilization but the change brought by the apocalypse affects said rebuilding
Personally, I loathe the appeal to human nature. I don't believe we can step outside of history and examine how we would behave in some mythological state, be it Hobbes's war-of-all against all or Rousseau's Nobel Savage. Any apocalypse will be the apocalypse of some specific place in some specific time and place, with norms and conventions that will influence how people react to said apocalypse. Humanity is just too complex for such an artificial framework, which, to me, is nothing but a lazy debating technique.
Funny thing, I'm currently writing about FNV for a college essay!
eyyy
Literally once you got to Gurren Lagann I stopped the video, and binge watched the rest of the series because I put it off half way through for the longest time. Then I came back to finish this and mention all this. No regrets!
I feel like MAGA should've gotten a shoutout in this video. Talking about an obsession with the past, how symbols take on a life of their own, and that MAGA represents an imagined idealistic past that never existed(much like fantasy novels).
Also, Jack Saint jsdt loves talking about fascism, so yeah; come on! We need a MAGA episode now!
It's an interesting example because it's a *pre*-apocalyptic[1] example of "old world blues" and textbook fascism[2] also.
[1] writing this in August 2020, your mileage may vary
[2] hopefully this isn't controversial to anyone reading this, if so check "ur-fascism" by Umberto Eco for reference
@@alexroselle I just wanna say I love that first remark. It's funny and yet so terrifying.
It's pretty fitting that humanity is beset by climate change, an apocalypse that requires peace, cooperation, and sustainability to solve, while very few of these post-apocalyptic movies show much of how to rebuild a society in that way.
1 second in, MOON on the soundtrack, that's a thumbs up from me!
Wanted to say that I really admired the thought and nuance you put into this video, I can see how much passion you have for the subject and I think this is one of your strongest pieces.
i kinda wish there were more eastern influences in this so far (about halfway thru, i do see gurren laggaan tho). for instance, shin megami tensei is _all_ about the apocalypse and what's left behind...also demons! yay.
smt is centrist propaganda
How? Almost all games (bar a few spinoffs) let you choose to side with whatever ideology you want, and never really paints any particular one as the “right” path.
@@popeprinny4705 Conflicts are presented as a single binary axis, but the two opposing sides are "too extreme" and neutrality is usually the "complete" experience from a gameplay perspective and if there's ever a follow up, neutral is canon (SMT 1 to 2, SMT 4 to Apocalypse)
Well yeah, you get more gameplay in neutral because you have to shut down both the law and chaos sides, and the gameplay you get is minimal (1 extra dungeon and boss at most). The main flaw of neutral is that it won’t stop the root problem of the conflict (humanity’s inner flaws in most cases), so it’s obvious that sequels will show how the neutral endings in previous games didn’t really fix anything.
@@popeprinny4705 Neutral isn't perfect, but when the games take a "no right side" approach because each ending is a different flavor of fucked, it still ends up sending the message "both sides equally bad" and neutrality comes across as the most level headed option for being non extremist. Also 4 Apocalypse, the most recent entry, is just blatant neutrality stanning with chaos and law being joke endings.
If you applied SMT's message to real life politics you'd end up with "the left is too extreme left and the right is too extreme right and they're both equally bad"
I originally skipped over this video when it came out because the topic just didn't really interest me. But after seeing the community posts about how much work you put into it I figured I owed it to you to watch it even if it got a little boring. I'm glad I was wrong this is a great video I hope there are more people like me who come back to it if they didnt give it a chance before
Yes! You are the only other person who has seen a boy and his dog! Litterally the only review channel I've seen do it! Underrated and cool movie.
yep...an hour of Jack Saint was exactly what i needed.
the new california republic does have slavery with prison labor, it's what the powder gangers escaped from. they were being forced to put down rail for trains, if i remember right, before taking the prison over.
Long form videos are really my favorite, and yours are always so much fun to watch through. Please keep it up!!!!
Comparing House to Musk is really unfair to House, cause he actually invented things.
The song at 1:16:07 is Sunflower Market from the game Hamtaro, Ham-Hams Unite! For the game it color
I feel like SMT games would be a good thing to look at for post-apocalyptic narratives, as the series relies on the player fighting for an ideology they choose to fight for
I think this might be your best video yet. Insightful commentary on a wealth of different stories, messages, ideologies, and ideas.
From one Jack to another - I salute you sir. Keep up the excellent work. And should the end times come, I promise; I won’t eat you.
Bloody hell Jack, this is why you’re the only video essayist I NEVER miss.
The idea that we become animals as soon as all the utilities are gone is so fucking wild to me. We built the utilities from nothing! Why would we not just build a new society? We always have done that in the past?
Jack saint, fallout, and blade runner all in one video? Damn trifecta of perfection
I really appreciate how you thoroughly explore the ideas instead of forcing us towards a conclusion, there's so much to consider!
ah yes, Limmy, the noble savage
Great video, very obvious a lot of time energy and care went into the making. 10/10.
Damn, Jack is just a full on filmmaker at this point. 🔥
This was really good, my favourite video of yours so far. I particularly liked the comparison between The Book of Job and The Mist. Really well done.
Mr House is one of the most fascinating Fallout characters, in my opinion. His entire plan is to absorb all the resources, manpower and power that he can access, in the structure and processes of the old capitalist American society, and use that to give humanity a brand new opportunity, restarting enough of the old world to colonize a new planet and start again. I think what's most interesting about him is the debate around this plan, and how polarising it currently is. Do you put all the resources into a total new start, abandon all that failed and start anew uninfluenced by the old world? Or do you take those same resources and put them back into the old world, try to revive all good and leave the bad buried in the debris, taking it as a drastic reform instead of an entire reset?
@Morphing Taxi 'Moving on ain't the hard part... It's letting go.'
@@thechocolateshoefiles9259 What's the difference between moving on and letting go?
@@scratch2086 Moving on means you start living as you used to, your behaviour becomes independent from whatever it is you've moved on from, you've stopped fighting against the fact that it has happened and you accept you can't change it. Letting go means you come to terms with it on an emotional level, when you think about it there's no sentimental pull; you accept what happened and now you don't just live inspite of it but actually start to forget that it ever had a hold on you at all.
@@thechocolateshoefiles9259 Ok I can dig it.
I keep hearing the phrase “anarchic condition” and getting really excited.
Someone should start a band called Anarchic Condition.
Loved this, very glad you decided against a multi-part series. Seeing these differing depictions compared with such immediacy provided a nuanced analysis of the apocalypse genre that I can't remember having seen before.
Regarding Matrix, I've seen an interpretation that says that the point of referencing "Simulacre et Simulation" is to show that the book is (literally in the film) hollow.
Such a joy that even after graduating film school, there's so much cool stuff to learn from creators like you. Keep up this amazing work, I appreciate it.
Support Jack on Patreon ya'll!
The end of the video reminds me of the final ending line to the lonesome roads dlc in fallout nv, “It's said war - war never changes. Men do, through the roads they walk.” That throughout the ending of society as we know it and the start of a new cycle, that it is us, truly, who must change. Our weapons, tactics, and political motives though ever-changing, ultimately uphold the same results, thus without a will to force the end of our destructive self-indulgence into what we believe, without challenging and synthesizing a new order, we will not have a changed world.
Wonderful video Jack, always looking forward to whatever topic you investigate next.
Also: the end song is from Hamtaro: Ham-Hams Unite! For the gbc? I grew up playing a ton of that game because I’d get lost and will never forget that song from Sunflower Market
That global warming and spiral energy fucking up the earth analogy thing fucked me up, Gurren Lagann still mind fucking me to this day.
"My name's not Shane, kid!"
Oh my goodness I fell over laughing. Top quality reference moment.