@@Drew-Dastardly I disagree. There is plenty of nuance in her arguments. She understands the difference between the different groups of 'trans people'. She does speak facts; however she goes far beyond the basic argument of 'trans women are men' and goes into depth about the difference between the different subsets of trans identified people. She understands that some are victims of the ideology and some are perpetrators.
Helen Joyce GETS IT. Once a bill is passed & becomes a law, it is rarely taken off the books. "THE PROCESS IS THE PUNISHMENT " People don't grasp how traumatic being arrested or being sued can be. Many defendants, of just a civil lawsuit will be so traumatized, they'll stop going to collect the mail, afraid another legal motion or letter will be in the mail. It can demoralize a normal person.
It is legitimately frightening to me that this has become something that needs to be said out loud, and that people risk their livelihoods by doing so.
Helen is getting so much pushback on X lately, the TRA types just can't stand to hear the truth, especially when it's comimg from an adult human female.
I challenge any one to debate this woman. She is not only highly intelligent. But she explains things so simple than not so smart peeps, like me, can understand. She is so easy to listen to.
I would LOVE to see a debate between Helen Joyce & Judith Butler! Butler would be totally humiliated by Helen's calm, rational, reasonable, clear arguments & demeanor.
Is your user pic of Veronica from the early 1950s? It looks like that era. I have some Betty & Veronica comics that I checked out of the library on my nightstand right now! Although I like the ones from the later decades.
i that I am a transgender person, simply put the thoughts in my brain that I need to express myself😅 made to go away, made to go away. I tried for 50 years to make the thoughts go away as a woman cannot be
It‘s better to swing both sides but I‘m not convinced it does lately. Obviously balance would be best but there are ppl with an interest in tension and the swinging to one side only until their goal is reached:( The damaging gender „care“ is only a part of an overall extremistic tendency…
What an honor to have someone of Helen Joyce’s academic caliber on the side of women and children. Thank you for your clear thinking and ability to stay calm when responding to truly asinine statements. As for shame, just like all human emotions, it is a guide to one’s true self and should not be lightly dismissed. Yes, too much shame destroys a person. But so does lack of shame. As with everything, all things in moderation. Shame tells us not to engage in a specific conduct. In Western society, that is usually an internal voice worth heeding.
Fantastic interview. I always learn something new and confirm my beliefs from both of these people. Did my whole dog walk listening to this. Thank you lovely ladies, women and adult human females. 🇬🇧
In Victoria, Australia, a law has ALREADY been introduced, under the PRETENSE of "banning (gay) conversion therapy" (that's what the law's titled, and the way politicians/trans activists always frame it) But in reality, it's so incredibly vaguely worded, and broad, it's virtually a blank cheque. But it DOES explicitly say that it criminalizes "saying anything that could dissuade a trans person from transitioning", which politician's have confirmed, includes ANY (so-called) "mis-gendering', and also legally binds all doctors, therapists, teachers etc to an "affirmation-only" approach. So far, the law is still untested in the courts (thankfully). But it's so insanely vaguely-worded, and our courts lean pretty damn "woke", so we basically just have a blank cheque hanging over us all, that ANY resistance/opposition to "gender" nonsense could very easily turn into a potential prison sentence.
I definitely think that the "chilling effect" is the MAIN GOAL of these laws. Whether you can actually prosecute and imprison someone, is secondary; The omni-present threat, that you COULD lose your freedom, family, job, reputation etc, is (understandably) enough to shut 99% of us up as soon as the heat gets turned up a little,99% of the time...
@@baconsarny-geddon8298 Yep, there's a small but significant minority who will risk their job to do something significant. Risking gaol (even if in reality you're risking the court process not gaol) is far less common.
The sad thing is that there will be scores of children damaged in the long run. The madness of crowds might fade but the damage caused to their bodies is irreversible 😢
This was a great conversation! (And I didn't know that Karolinska University Hospital here in Sweden still "treats" children with puberty blockers and other hormones. I thought that had been discontinued.)
AFAIK people that had already get approved for treatment or were undergoing treatment are still allowed to be on them and there is the dubious clause about clinical testing. Exactly the same is happening here in Norway. I'm optimistic that these drugs will be completely stopped for the use of gender therapy when we have more research though.
@@mortagon1451I agree but I think that's why they're incredibly opposed to more research. I know very little about the situation in Norway. It seems to have fallen under the radar. How are things there now? Did they have a systematic review like the UK, Sweden, Finland?
Especially useful points from Helen at the end re the grc and her idea that signing an understanding that their sex does not change and therefore no entitlement to women only spaces comes with it.
Absolutely excellent discussion. Stephanie, your introduction of the concepts of egodystonic and egosystonic are paradigm shifters for me. I am now able to understand the basis for similar mental illnesses that are treated differently by clinicians, doctors. It also explains different outcomes in families who affirm and those who psh back, depending on the issue at hand, e.g. anorexia, trans, Apotemnophelia. Thank you so much, Stephanie.
Thanks for chiming in! Glad you found these concepts helpful. Be on the lookout for future commentary on this topic, here and on X. It’s often the elephant in the room, or perhaps the keystone to understanding so many interrelated issues.
Helen is a delight. I was a TRA a while ago and then actually read studies and cases myself and I’m no longer. Should have read her book sooner, it’s excellent.
Fascinating conversation! I don't always agree with Helen, pessimistically I think many of her propositions are just not viable in today's mad world anymore (give it 7 to 10 years, when many of them will detransition), but she's so well spoken and well informed, I always learn something new from interviews with her. Your explanation of egosyntonic & egodystonic disorders blew my mind! It's so telling that while most AGP men are egosyntonic and joyful and imposing, taking up space, many of young heterosexual women who fell into this ideology seem to be doing the opposite, shrinking themselves. I have a trans student right now, first for me as a teacher who's only in her 2nd year of teaching, and my heart just breaks for this kid, especially since I see the testosterone is doing its thing, the lowering voice and breakouts. That gentle and quiet young person is very clearly on the autism spectrum, and does not behave in the slightest like other boys. I have no idea how will they navigate the world as a man. I try to have empathy, I try to believe it will help them, but they're just so young. millennial generation had eating disorders, gen z have this. And the eating disorder craze mostly passed.
What is it you don't agree with, and we millennials had goths. Eating disorders are definitely still around, I've worked with plenty of women who think they do well at hiding it but definitely don't. I hope you speak up for that little girl.
What a terrific interview. I'm glad I found this and your channel. It would be interesting if you found a critically minded anthropologist to interview and discuss with the recent denunciation of two sex categories by the American Anthropological Association. This development needs more attention since it concerns consequences for evolutionary and biological anthropology, which is and should be scientific, not ideologically biased and consequently anti-scientific.
Yes, as always, excellent discussion, Helen is on point, as always and so needed today. This is a horrible contagion. Both speakers are speaking truth to power. The internet and the lack of regulation is stunning and it is frightening. The benefits will be questionable. Spot on with trust and autogyn....
38:45 Yeah I also had the impression that this often is a grass is always greener on the other side sort of deal and is so sad that many of these people won't realise that life is difficult in general for both men and women until after the point of no return.
Just listened to this podcast featuring Helen Joyce. Opened my eyes as to the extent the trans ideology has taken hold. A brilliant interview. Thanks to you both for the work you do.
I’m a RN and have been waiting for someone to bring up Factitious Disorder (FD) AKA Munchausen’s Syndrome so was glad to see it mentioned around the 1.05 mark. Unlike the typical FD I’ve seen where it’s either the patient OR the caregiver (by proxy) exhibiting signs of FD/proxy, with gender issues it appears (IMO) that some cases have BOTH Factitious Disorder in the patient as well as FD by proxy (usually the mother). Of course BOTH the patient and the caregiver being afflicted by FD and FD by proxy simultaneously is unusual - in the proxy version the child is typically tortured (“tortured” used purposely as often there is literal physical agony from medical procedures) and don’t want any of it, and are relieved to later learn they were actually never sick and don’t need anymore procedures. I hope the possibility of FD is looked into, especially when both patient (FD) and caregiver (FD by proxy) simultaneously exhibit it and how that interaction is displayed. Also, it’s very hard to distinguish (for the non-proxy form) when someone is simply an overutilizer of healthcare or hypochondriac (not only with GD but with FD related to all diseases/conditions) - more research should be done.
Yep. I'm in the UK so an American charity is completely inappropriate. Their words are also contradictory with UK discourse, reviews and cases. Quite disturbing that TH-cam find this reasonable.
Another excellent interview with Helen Joyce. One example I’ve seen of a transhausen father: Jonathan Joly, a “non-binary” dad who’s transing his young son.
Regarding the guy who wore a dress - you need to be aware of your environment and how people will react to it. Let's be honest, if you wear something that you know will cause controversy, you do it to satisfy your own needs. It's rather immature as it reminds my wearing a pentacle to a Christian church service.
@robertmarshall2502 well autogynephilia only affects men. So, women who claim a trans identity are not AGPs. If they did have something analogous that is called autoandrophilia. Both AGP and AAP is not all trans identified peoples reason for transitioning but it could be.
I think we just need to keep our sexual and private lives separate and private from our public life. We don’t need shame we need common decency and social boundaries. Social rules that should be followed or enforced through social means.
Really appreciate that distinction between ego-syntonic and ego-dystonic (at 01:30:00). Makes so much sense. It's related to the conversation we're having as a culture about people identifying as victims. To what degree does a person identify with their difficulty/diagnosis (OCD, anxiety, depression, for example). Does the person lean into it? Does it make up that person's whole identity? Or is it one part of a person, part of the whole of the person, and the person is consciously navigating it in that context.
thanks for this great, informativ levelheaded talk. I really wonder when the pendulum will swing the other way and the trans activists get really checked based on facts. messing with kids "because they are unhappy" is wrong on so many levels, all the new words as well - and what I really miss in the general discussion is the question, who benefits from the surge of "gender clinics", like who makes the money not explore together with troubled kids what the root of their deep unhappiness is - that is really criminally neglecting keep handing us valuable information, we want to stay with folks like you, Catherin Stock etc or to quote Mr. Menno: happy to terf together greetings from Germany, tall non-gender confirming woman here, science nerd, tool collector, with hubby and 2 "selfgrown" kids I guess it cuts so deep for me personally because if I was a teen today, I might have been sent down the transroad as I was totally not a typical girly girl - big plus for me that there were no social media way back when
@33:00 I've been saying for a while that Blanchards typology is probably out of date. Rather than categorising transexuals based on their primary orientation, I think they need to be categorised based on the target of their fixation; 1. Female anatomy (breasts, genitalia etc) 2. Female physiology ( menstruation, lactation, pregnancy) 3. Female 'associated' behaviours (bimbofication/sissy porn/ humiliation, using female apaces/services etc) 4. Female adornments (clothing/shoes/make up/accessories)
I wish you’d been able to finish your Drama Triangle analogy. It seems very apt to me too. Perhaps you can present it more fully at a future interview.
So glad you’ve mentioned the medical stats and research. We are completely different - different symptoms, different treatments etc. invisible women is eye opening!
beautiful interview Stephanie. i want to help your language in a asmall way. i cringe when you say "parents who do not want to affirm their children..." of course, they want to affirm their children. confirming gender ideology articles of faith is NOT affirming these children. if they are baby lesbians or gay or bisexual, affirming gender ideology is ERASING their children, in there truth and fullness. it is affirming to stand for a child's right to sort out confusions and distress about socially enforced sex roles, without being turned into a patient for life. transing gay, lesbiian and bisexual kids is not "affirming" that is propaganda, ideology, and godless theology. it is not factual or true, no matter how sincerely meant.
The one area that alsways gets missed when we talk aboit where sex matters is health and safety, in design and the workplace. Safe lifting loads, risks assessment for women of child bearing age, PPE that actually fits, managing menstruation in challenging circumstances, long shifts etc. The world being designed around men is most obvious in the work place.
42:00 This brings to mind UK Historian Tom Holland's fantastic book "Dominion: The making of the Western Mind". The basic premise is that many of the secular western values that we hold today find their roots in christianity. Why do progressives value the marginalized? Why do they abhor oppressive power? Why do they aspire to be vicitims when so many cultures have historically valued stength and power? Western values didn't appear out of thin air, are not necessarily self-evident, and are certainly not universally agreed upon by every culture. It's because we're living in a culture that has been saturated for 2000+ years with an aspirational story about a humble carpenter who loved everyone including the leper, was vicitimized by ruling authories, and died a humiliating and painful death. Some have argued that the woke/progressive movement is more religious in nature than scientific, with its priests, holy texts, and casting out of heretics. I tend to agree and would go further to say it's a wayward child of the Christian tradition. Wokeness invaded the West first and furthest because our culture had been primed for it through Christianity.
thanks for pointing out this aspect, and the book recommendation, never considered that. What I really love about this comment section are all the different facetts or view points all the different international viewers bring to this "table"
Female/Male : essential complements What's good for the goose is good for the gander; if women aren't happy , men won't be happy , because we are complementary opposites of a natural animal species; part of Mother Nature. Thursday, December 21, 2017 Gender is determined by objective physiological characteristics , not how an individual "feels." With respect to this section of psychiatry , the inmates have taken over the asylum. For 2.5 million years , humans have assigned gender based on objective physiological characteristics . Suddenly, in the last 20 years some people creep up on you are what you "feel" like you are.
What nonsense. Men in the past were extremely happy to withhold all rights, property, freedom, the vote, professions, education, from the entire female sex. They've become increasingly unhappy and vengeful since women rose up against male domination.
I think you mean sex not gender. Gender is a totally made up concept. For some reason Americans tend to say gender when they mean sex which has totally confused everything.
In the UK a woman cannot be charged with R. They can be charged with SA which carries the same penalty, just a different word. I am curious whether trans women (m to f) *can* be charged with R? Is there any case law on this?
Found something I disagree with Helen on. Lowering of chairs on trains! Being 6'8" this would make train seats impossible for me to sit in without incredible pain. It already hurts like nothing else on cars, trains, planes, buses, coaches, etc, to the extent I don't travel more than 30 mins. To that end I definitely don't agree that lowering seats in general is a good idea. Tall and short people exist, having tall people just bend their knees more is dismissive of a huge number of people. I appreciate it was an analogy by Helen but imo it was not thought through in the way Helen is really good at doing. Nevertheless, Helen is awesome. She's up there with Christopher for me.
"It's very depressing the extent to which inertia keeps these awful things [operative] - like at the Tavistok, like Mermaids. You feel like you've got enough material that surely, surely you should be able to get them closed down, but there's no mechanism for getting them to close down. Most people don't hear what we're saying - we're not on the BBC, we're not put out by the New York Times. Loads of people still think Mermaids is good." -HJ
The TH-cam "Context" alert angers me. I went through the light, modern, religious methods as a gay teen so seeing attempts to change professed gender identity or expression compared even to that - to say nothing of the horrific treatments inflicted decades ago - is infuriating. Conversion therapy refers to physically or psychologically torturing people out of innate sexual attraction. Period. It's bad because sexual orientation is something your brain makes you experience, whether you want to or not; it can't be turned off or be distracted away and it doesn't shift with mood. In a person, the experience can be concisely described in reference to concrete biological reality because that's where it's rooted; and, while it might evolve, it never categorically changes. Gender identity is a description a person gives his or her personality; every personality is a complex web of traits that could each be described as more or less feminine or masculine, and their respective presence or dominance in day to day life shifts constantly. Simply by changing out of a dress and into pants or no longer labelling your personality as "demi-boy" - while not altering your actual personality in any way - could be enough to comply with the goals of "conversion therapy" on gender identity or expression; because it's primarily concerned with what you claim to be and has little impact on what you actually are. Challenging gender ideology or performative identities is not the same thing - not even close - to trying to make a gay man feel sick at the sight of a beautiful, sculpted, broad, bare, sun kissed and slightly sweaty man's chest.
A small linguistic point is the difference in meaning between English spoken by a Brit and an American is that eg. if l speak 'about my cat' that means something different to if l speak 'to my cat'.
This is taught to ppl who learn English as a standard difference. It exists in other languages too. And Joyce is Irish. Although I'll happily claim her as being born down the road from me if that's an option.
Important considerations about the transgender phenomenon and thanks for all that work. I very much support women's calls to protect their own spaces and for fairness in sports. I was appalled at the behaviour of trans activists towards Posie Parker when she visited New Zealand recently, and the inaction by police to protect her and the rights of those who came to hear her views. I would have liked feminists to respect men's need for their own spaces too, but men's clubs were hounded out of existence by them while at the same time they maintained and expanded the number of female-exclusive services, clubs, business groups, taxi services and more. The claim that everything is made for males is nonsense, especially when based upon you finding train seats a bit too high for your comfort. Have you done measurements or a survey? You might find that train seats are still a bit low for many men's comfort and that the seat height is a compromise. And of course there are many provisions for women throughout society especially in democratic states. Remember that feminists laid the foundations for transgender ideology. (That's not to deny that there are some permanently gender dysphoric people - a very small proportion of the population - who will feel much better presenting themselves as the opposite sex.) Those foundations included the early, and in many cases still continuing claims that sex differences are all due to socialization, the feminist version of 'assigned sex at birth'. The foundations also include feminists' hostility towards those who didn't agree with their ideology, or intentional damage to their reputation and careers, very much like the transgender activists do now ('cancel culture' is largely a version of longstanding female in-group, out-group behaviour, ostracizing those who don't conform to whatever criteria their group uses). Also, corruption of scientific rigour in favour of 'advocacy research' with outcomes pre-determined by the methodology, and rejection of 'patriarchal' priorities such as honour, respectful debate, logic and freedom of ideas. It's a shame to distract from the work against gender ideology by side-tracking into feminist propaganda rather than promoting mutual respect and cooperation between the sexes (and not only on female terms).
To think of how stating that there are two sexes is now protected in law under Freedom of Religion and Belief, as if it's a construct of the imagination and not a fact of life, is maddening. I had to pause the video and try to wrap my head around this. How did we get here? It's almost impossible for me at this point, to not think of the likelihood of the case that all of this mess is being used as pretext for the implementation of a bigger, more dangerous agenda. Never in history has there been a minority group that has received as much support from the government and media outlets. This is not about trans rights. This is one big leap towards technological dystopia. Removing the human from the body and creating the perfect mindless slave, forever dependant on the system. Synthetic bodies under the pretext of affirmative care, synthetic pregnancies sold as trans women's rights, stunting the brain development of kids and calling it therapy, this is all orchestrated. Don't fall for it. Protect your children. They're the future.
I thought of a couple of other areas in which sex matters: Men taking gynecological resources from women (doctor appointments, taking tampons & menstrual pads, d) prisons, media coverage of crimes, & crime statistics. [I spoke too soon. You guys covered this later in the vid.]
I saw the title of this and realized its for everyone else. How do people have sex in a world where you only have debt, and everything costs soooo much? Honestly I really do just wish this whole fucking ride was over and obviously cause my life sucked I get reincarnated as a rich person for a free ride. Thats the only thought I look forward too.
This sounds like a cry for help, unrelated to the topic of this video, which I’m not confident you watched. Please reach out to a qualified therapist in your area.
The thing I wonder about is if the reason Gen Z has so many trans people in it might have to do with environmental contamination and plasticizers. No one talks about that, but the world the younger generations are growing up in has so many more hyper novel chemical many of which are endocrine disruptors. I have wondered if biological disruption gives the people odd feelings resulting in more awkwardness and opening the door to social contagion and then the medical industry and social media started grifting off of something that is a real biological issue driving it into something more extreme. It is a perfect storm, but I wonder if the biology is the base and the treatment might mean getting endocrine disrupters out of the water supply.
I am old enough to remember Lobotomies, aversion therapy/torture for homosexuality, memory recovery, numerous dreadful cults, and now this latest destructive cult.
I agree with a lot of what has been said here, but when discussing Elon Musk perhaps we can acknowledge that Musk has notably been fairly awful to the mothers of all his children (important caveat: when he was romantically involved with them that is), particularly his trans child's mother aka his first wife. Musk is wealthy - that isn't interchangeable with "good person," and I am certainly willing to accept the premise that his child would want to distant themselves as far as they can from him. However, let's not be afraid to call a spade a spade.
@@sometherapistI'm sorry but compare your audio in this episode to episode 88 or 86 and tell me you don't hear a difference!? In all of your prior episodes your audio is warm and like soothing and in this episode it's cold and grating like fingernails on a chalkboard (and to clarify I'm talking about your audio not the guest's). Did you get a new mic or something? To me the difference is clearly noticeable and not in a good way 😬
@@dcitennison5911yeah it's not anything on my end... I've listened to every episode - this is one of my favorite podcasts and I look forward to a new episode every week - and never had a problem until now. It's such a huge sensory issue for me to the point that it's almost physically painful but I love Helen so much that I endured it.
![[TH] 2024 PMSL SEA Finals D1 | Fall | ยิงต้องโหด ให้เหมือนโกรธกันมาก่อน](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OnTdfGySmds/mqdefault.jpg)
If Helen Joyce speaks, I listen.
Helen Joyce is a hero in this fight, her arguments are sane, nuanced, lawful and all round excellent woman 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 🎉🎉🎉🎉
She is not nuanced at all, she is stating complete facts. I am very impressed with Helen.
@@Drew-Dastardly I disagree. There is plenty of nuance in her arguments. She understands the difference between the different groups of 'trans people'.
She does speak facts; however she goes far beyond the basic argument of 'trans women are men' and goes into depth about the difference between the different subsets of trans identified people. She understands that some are victims of the ideology and some are perpetrators.
Helen is just too intelligent and articulate for those discussing from a position of gender ideology theory.
Helen Joyce GETS IT.
Once a bill is passed & becomes a law, it is rarely taken off the books.
"THE PROCESS IS THE PUNISHMENT "
People don't grasp how traumatic being arrested or being sued can be. Many defendants, of just a civil lawsuit will be so traumatized, they'll stop going to collect the mail, afraid another legal motion or letter will be in the mail.
It can demoralize a normal person.
Thank God for Dr. Joyce. She's tremendous.
It is legitimately frightening to me that this has become something that needs to be said out loud, and that people risk their livelihoods by doing so.
Helen is getting so much pushback on X lately, the TRA types just can't stand to hear the truth, especially when it's comimg from an adult human female.
I have never been on twitter/x.
Ok then perhaps I will join and make sure I add my voice in support of her. As should as many people as possible.
Yes, good idea, powerful voices like hers need to be supported. @@sarahwhyld5596
@@sarahwhyld5596brace yourself , X is brutal
@@sarahwhyld5596I will create my account today.
I think they're just histrionic because they're losing. They are like toddlers who are having their favourite toys taken away.
Man! I love this woman. Shes done more for women's rights (real women) than most. Brave, articulate and fierce ❤😊
I challenge any one to debate this woman. She is not only highly intelligent. But she explains things so simple than not so smart peeps, like me, can understand. She is so easy to listen to.
I would LOVE to see a debate between Helen Joyce & Judith Butler! Butler would be totally humiliated by Helen's calm, rational, reasonable, clear arguments & demeanor.
Is your user pic of Veronica from the early 1950s? It looks like that era. I have some Betty & Veronica comics that I checked out of the library on my nightstand right now! Although I like the ones from the later decades.
Anytime Helen Joyce speaks, I listen. The woman knows what she's talking about! ❤
What a delight to learn more about this from Helen! Thank you. The way the pendulum swings back and forth in society is alarming these days.
the problem is that it only seems to swing one way now. it's clearly not coming back
i that I am a transgender person, simply put the thoughts in my brain that I need to express myself😅 made to go away, made to go away. I tried for 50 years to make the thoughts go away as a woman cannot be
It‘s better to swing both sides but I‘m not convinced it does lately. Obviously balance would be best but there are ppl with an interest in tension and the swinging to one side only until their goal is reached:(
The damaging gender „care“ is only a part of an overall extremistic tendency…
The next feminist revolution will be conservative. Full circle.
Maybe it’s a pendulum on an alarm clock
What an honor to have someone of Helen Joyce’s academic caliber on the side of women and children. Thank you for your clear thinking and ability to stay calm when responding to truly asinine statements.
As for shame, just like all human emotions, it is a guide to one’s true self and should not be lightly dismissed. Yes, too much shame destroys a person. But so does lack of shame. As with everything, all things in moderation.
Shame tells us not to engage in a specific conduct. In Western society, that is usually an internal voice worth heeding.
I feel like I know almost every book on Helen’s bookshelves by now! Brilliant as always.
Haha I always look at her books too. She's so dang intelligent and a role model of mine ❤
Always love Helen Joyce
absolutely love Helen Joyce.
You’re not alone 😊
She’s amazing!
Fantastic interview. I always learn something new and confirm my beliefs from both of these people. Did my whole dog walk listening to this. Thank you lovely ladies, women and adult human females. 🇬🇧
In Victoria, Australia, a law has ALREADY been introduced, under the PRETENSE of "banning (gay) conversion therapy" (that's what the law's titled, and the way politicians/trans activists always frame it)
But in reality, it's so incredibly vaguely worded, and broad, it's virtually a blank cheque.
But it DOES explicitly say that it criminalizes "saying anything that could dissuade a trans person from transitioning", which politician's have confirmed, includes ANY (so-called) "mis-gendering', and also legally binds all doctors, therapists, teachers etc to an "affirmation-only" approach.
So far, the law is still untested in the courts (thankfully). But it's so insanely vaguely-worded, and our courts lean pretty damn "woke", so we basically just have a blank cheque hanging over us all, that ANY resistance/opposition to "gender" nonsense could very easily turn into a potential prison sentence.
I definitely think that the "chilling effect" is the MAIN GOAL of these laws.
Whether you can actually prosecute and imprison someone, is secondary; The omni-present threat, that you COULD lose your freedom, family, job, reputation etc, is (understandably) enough to shut 99% of us up as soon as the heat gets turned up a little,99% of the time...
Wow, that’s actually worse than Canada’s current criminalization of conversion therapy.
@@baconsarny-geddon8298 Yep, there's a small but significant minority who will risk their job to do something significant. Risking gaol (even if in reality you're risking the court process not gaol) is far less common.
They just passed a similar law here in Norway.
The sad thing is that there will be scores of children damaged in the long run. The madness of crowds might fade but the damage caused to their bodies is irreversible 😢
Thanks ladies. Helen is always so clear and sane.
I love Helen Joyce - she is one of the best thinkers criticising this absurd gender ideology fad and protecting women's rights and dignity!
This was a great conversation! (And I didn't know that Karolinska University Hospital here in Sweden still "treats" children with puberty blockers and other hormones. I thought that had been discontinued.)
Human rights abuse. Crime against humanity
Me neither - I had the same understanding as you! Horrific.
AFAIK people that had already get approved for treatment or were undergoing treatment are still allowed to be on them and there is the dubious clause about clinical testing. Exactly the same is happening here in Norway. I'm optimistic that these drugs will be completely stopped for the use of gender therapy when we have more research though.
Is it in "trials" which I think is akin to mengele experimental studies
@@mortagon1451I agree but I think that's why they're incredibly opposed to more research.
I know very little about the situation in Norway. It seems to have fallen under the radar. How are things there now? Did they have a systematic review like the UK, Sweden, Finland?
Especially useful points from Helen at the end re the grc and her idea that signing an understanding that their sex does not change and therefore no entitlement to women only spaces comes with it.
🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏 keep speaking ladies!! We’re with you!! 🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌
Thank you thank you thank you
Absolutely excellent discussion. Stephanie, your introduction of the concepts of egodystonic and egosystonic are paradigm shifters for me. I am now able to understand the basis for similar mental illnesses that are treated differently by clinicians, doctors. It also explains different outcomes in families who affirm and those who psh back, depending on the issue at hand, e.g. anorexia, trans, Apotemnophelia. Thank you so much, Stephanie.
Thanks for chiming in! Glad you found these concepts helpful. Be on the lookout for future commentary on this topic, here and on X. It’s often the elephant in the room, or perhaps the keystone to understanding so many interrelated issues.
I adore Helen, she's so bloody smart
Helen is a delight. I was a TRA a while ago and then actually read studies and cases myself and I’m no longer. Should have read her book sooner, it’s excellent.
Fascinating conversation! I don't always agree with Helen, pessimistically I think many of her propositions are just not viable in today's mad world anymore (give it 7 to 10 years, when many of them will detransition), but she's so well spoken and well informed, I always learn something new from interviews with her.
Your explanation of egosyntonic & egodystonic disorders blew my mind! It's so telling that while most AGP men are egosyntonic and joyful and imposing, taking up space, many of young heterosexual women who fell into this ideology seem to be doing the opposite, shrinking themselves. I have a trans student right now, first for me as a teacher who's only in her 2nd year of teaching, and my heart just breaks for this kid, especially since I see the testosterone is doing its thing, the lowering voice and breakouts. That gentle and quiet young person is very clearly on the autism spectrum, and does not behave in the slightest like other boys. I have no idea how will they navigate the world as a man. I try to have empathy, I try to believe it will help them, but they're just so young.
millennial generation had eating disorders, gen z have this. And the eating disorder craze mostly passed.
What is it you don't agree with, and we millennials had goths. Eating disorders are definitely still around, I've worked with plenty of women who think they do well at hiding it but definitely don't.
I hope you speak up for that little girl.
What a terrific interview. I'm glad I found this and your channel. It would be interesting if you found a critically minded anthropologist to interview and discuss with the recent denunciation of two sex categories by the American Anthropological Association. This development needs more attention since it concerns consequences for evolutionary and biological anthropology, which is and should be scientific, not ideologically biased and consequently anti-scientific.
Yes, as always, excellent discussion, Helen is on point, as always and so needed today. This is a horrible contagion. Both speakers are speaking truth to power. The internet and the lack of regulation is stunning and it is frightening. The benefits will be questionable. Spot on with trust and autogyn....
Excellent conversation 💜
Brilliant woman. Clear, concise, inarguably factual.
Great conversation, thank you both!!
Brilliant episode, thank you.
Wow, I love Helen's clear plan for how to get a handle on this ideology. A must listen, excellent interview! ❤
I love Helen Joyce , she says things that I’ve always thought .
I❤HelenJoyce and JKRowling...and KJKeane , Geniveve Gluck. Respect to these women.
I see TH-cam are still adding The Trevor Project to any videos concerning conversion therapy. 🙄
Discouraging, isn't it? It also shows the limits of their almighty algorithms...
38:45 Yeah I also had the impression that this often is a grass is always greener on the other side sort of deal and is so sad that many of these people won't realise that life is difficult in general for both men and women until after the point of no return.
Thank you ladies. Good chat. 🐿
Just listened to this podcast featuring Helen Joyce. Opened my eyes as to the extent the trans ideology has taken hold.
A brilliant interview. Thanks to you both for the work you do.
We need Helen Joyce in Australia to make sure the Court hears some facts before the Judge hears Tickle v Giggle case.
I think she is one of Giggle's expert witnesses
I’m a RN and have been waiting for someone to bring up Factitious Disorder (FD) AKA Munchausen’s Syndrome so was glad to see it mentioned around the 1.05 mark. Unlike the typical FD I’ve seen where it’s either the patient OR the caregiver (by proxy) exhibiting signs of FD/proxy, with gender issues it appears (IMO) that some cases have BOTH Factitious Disorder in the patient as well as FD by proxy (usually the mother). Of course BOTH the patient and the caregiver being afflicted by FD and FD by proxy simultaneously is unusual - in the proxy version the child is typically tortured (“tortured” used purposely as often there is literal physical agony from medical procedures) and don’t want any of it, and are relieved to later learn they were actually never sick and don’t need anymore procedures. I hope the possibility of FD is looked into, especially when both patient (FD) and caregiver (FD by proxy) simultaneously exhibit it and how that interaction is displayed. Also, it’s very hard to distinguish (for the non-proxy form) when someone is simply an overutilizer of healthcare or hypochondriac (not only with GD but with FD related to all diseases/conditions) - more research should be done.
A crystal clear thinker and an inspiration to us all.
Does anyone else find it alarming that You Tube puts a context note from the Trevor Project on this video?
Yep. I'm in the UK so an American charity is completely inappropriate. Their words are also contradictory with UK discourse, reviews and cases.
Quite disturbing that TH-cam find this reasonable.
Another excellent interview with Helen Joyce.
One example I’ve seen of a transhausen father: Jonathan Joly, a “non-binary” dad who’s transing his young son.
Thougherly enjoyed this discussion x
Regarding the guy who wore a dress - you need to be aware of your environment and how people will react to it. Let's be honest, if you wear something that you know will cause controversy, you do it to satisfy your own needs. It's rather immature as it reminds my wearing a pentacle to a Christian church service.
great episode
Thank you so much for having this conversation, please keep speaking out, there’s a big difference between trans and autogynophillia
Can you explain what difference you see?
Are you saying autogynephiles aren't trans for example?
Thanks
@robertmarshall2502 well autogynephilia only affects men. So, women who claim a trans identity are not AGPs. If they did have something analogous that is called autoandrophilia. Both AGP and AAP is not all trans identified peoples reason for transitioning but it could be.
Lovely conversation I so enjoyed this!
Thank you both. I love how Helen put it about 35:00 on. I learned some new things here and have just a little more hope.
Love Helen, protect her at all cost.
I think we just need to keep our sexual and private lives separate and private from our public life. We don’t need shame we need common decency and social boundaries. Social rules that should be followed or enforced through social means.
Really appreciate that distinction between ego-syntonic and ego-dystonic (at 01:30:00). Makes so much sense. It's related to the conversation we're having as a culture about people identifying as victims. To what degree does a person identify with their difficulty/diagnosis (OCD, anxiety, depression, for example). Does the person lean into it? Does it make up that person's whole identity? Or is it one part of a person, part of the whole of the person, and the person is consciously navigating it in that context.
Helen is my hero❤
thanks for this great, informativ levelheaded talk. I really wonder when the pendulum will swing the other way and the trans activists get really checked based on facts.
messing with kids "because they are unhappy" is wrong on so many levels, all the new words as well - and what I really miss in the general discussion is the question, who benefits from the surge of "gender clinics", like who makes the money
not explore together with troubled kids what the root of their deep unhappiness is - that is really criminally neglecting
keep handing us valuable information, we want to stay with folks like you, Catherin Stock etc
or to quote Mr. Menno: happy to terf together
greetings from Germany, tall non-gender confirming woman here, science nerd, tool collector, with hubby and 2 "selfgrown" kids
I guess it cuts so deep for me personally because if I was a teen today, I might have been sent down the transroad as I was totally not a typical girly girl - big plus for me that there were no social media way back when
@33:00 I've been saying for a while that Blanchards typology is probably out of date. Rather than categorising transexuals based on their primary orientation, I think they need to be categorised based on the target of their fixation;
1. Female anatomy (breasts, genitalia etc)
2. Female physiology ( menstruation, lactation, pregnancy)
3. Female 'associated' behaviours (bimbofication/sissy porn/ humiliation, using female apaces/services etc)
4. Female adornments (clothing/shoes/make up/accessories)
My youngest child identifies as a mango on Saturdays so this podcast really resonates with my struggles😑
Thank you thank you thank you ❤
I wish you’d been able to finish your Drama Triangle analogy. It seems very apt to me too. Perhaps you can present it more fully at a future interview.
🔥
A comment for ze algorismus
Am I the only one who has a Trevor Project PSA notice right under the video? I live in Ireland.
So glad you’ve mentioned the medical stats and research. We are completely different - different symptoms, different treatments etc. invisible women is eye opening!
beautiful interview Stephanie. i want to help your language in a asmall way. i cringe when you say "parents who do not want to affirm their children..." of course, they want to affirm their children. confirming gender ideology articles of faith is NOT affirming these children. if they are baby lesbians or gay or bisexual, affirming gender ideology is ERASING their children, in there truth and fullness. it is affirming to stand for a child's right to sort out confusions and distress about socially enforced sex roles, without being turned into a patient for life. transing gay, lesbiian and bisexual kids is not "affirming" that is propaganda, ideology, and godless theology. it is not factual or true, no matter how sincerely meant.
The one area that alsways gets missed when we talk aboit where sex matters is health and safety, in design and the workplace. Safe lifting loads, risks assessment for women of child bearing age, PPE that actually fits, managing menstruation in challenging circumstances, long shifts etc. The world being designed around men is most obvious in the work place.
42:00 This brings to mind UK Historian Tom Holland's fantastic book "Dominion: The making of the Western Mind".
The basic premise is that many of the secular western values that we hold today find their roots in christianity.
Why do progressives value the marginalized? Why do they abhor oppressive power? Why do they aspire to be vicitims when so many cultures have historically valued stength and power?
Western values didn't appear out of thin air, are not necessarily self-evident, and are certainly not universally agreed upon by every culture.
It's because we're living in a culture that has been saturated for 2000+ years with an aspirational story about a humble carpenter who loved everyone including the leper, was vicitimized by ruling authories, and died a humiliating and painful death.
Some have argued that the woke/progressive movement is more religious in nature than scientific, with its priests, holy texts, and casting out of heretics.
I tend to agree and would go further to say it's a wayward child of the Christian tradition. Wokeness invaded the West first and furthest because our culture had been primed for it through Christianity.
thanks for pointing out this aspect, and the book recommendation, never considered that. What I really love about this comment section are all the different facetts or view points all the different international viewers bring to this "table"
Female/Male : essential complements What's good for the goose is good for the gander; if women aren't happy , men won't be happy , because we are complementary opposites of a natural animal species; part of Mother Nature.
Thursday, December 21, 2017 Gender is determined by objective physiological characteristics , not how an individual "feels." With respect to this section of psychiatry , the inmates have taken over the asylum.
For 2.5 million years , humans have assigned gender based on objective physiological characteristics . Suddenly, in the last 20 years some people creep up on you are what you "feel" like you are.
I had a fantastic dog walk listening to these excellent female, women, ladies, adult human females. Thank you. 🇬🇧
What nonsense. Men in the past were extremely happy to withhold all rights, property, freedom, the vote, professions, education, from the entire female sex. They've become increasingly unhappy and vengeful since women rose up against male domination.
I think you mean sex not gender. Gender is a totally made up concept. For some reason Americans tend to say gender when they mean sex which has totally confused everything.
In the UK a woman cannot be charged with R. They can be charged with SA which carries the same penalty, just a different word.
I am curious whether trans women (m to f) *can* be charged with R? Is there any case law on this?
Found something I disagree with Helen on. Lowering of chairs on trains! Being 6'8" this would make train seats impossible for me to sit in without incredible pain. It already hurts like nothing else on cars, trains, planes, buses, coaches, etc, to the extent I don't travel more than 30 mins. To that end I definitely don't agree that lowering seats in general is a good idea. Tall and short people exist, having tall people just bend their knees more is dismissive of a huge number of people.
I appreciate it was an analogy by Helen but imo it was not thought through in the way Helen is really good at doing.
Nevertheless, Helen is awesome. She's up there with Christopher for me.
Great chat.
"It's very depressing the extent to which inertia keeps these awful things [operative] - like at the Tavistok, like Mermaids. You feel like you've got enough material that surely, surely you should be able to get them closed down, but there's no mechanism for getting them to close down. Most people don't hear what we're saying - we're not on the BBC, we're not put out by the New York Times. Loads of people still think Mermaids is good." -HJ
16:45 I love this awareness, this is becoming a wake up call for some, the police and the law is not there for us
The TH-cam "Context" alert angers me. I went through the light, modern, religious methods as a gay teen so seeing attempts to change professed gender identity or expression compared even to that - to say nothing of the horrific treatments inflicted decades ago - is infuriating.
Conversion therapy refers to physically or psychologically torturing people out of innate sexual attraction. Period. It's bad because sexual orientation is something your brain makes you experience, whether you want to or not; it can't be turned off or be distracted away and it doesn't shift with mood. In a person, the experience can be concisely described in reference to concrete biological reality because that's where it's rooted; and, while it might evolve, it never categorically changes.
Gender identity is a description a person gives his or her personality; every personality is a complex web of traits that could each be described as more or less feminine or masculine, and their respective presence or dominance in day to day life shifts constantly.
Simply by changing out of a dress and into pants or no longer labelling your personality as "demi-boy" - while not altering your actual personality in any way - could be enough to comply with the goals of "conversion therapy" on gender identity or expression; because it's primarily concerned with what you claim to be and has little impact on what you actually are.
Challenging gender ideology or performative identities is not the same thing - not even close - to trying to make a gay man feel sick at the sight of a beautiful, sculpted, broad, bare, sun kissed and slightly sweaty man's chest.
A small linguistic point is the difference in meaning between English spoken by a Brit and an American is that eg. if l speak 'about my cat' that means something different to if l speak 'to my cat'.
"Speak about" and "speak to" mean different things here too.
There is no linguistic difference.
This is taught to ppl who learn English as a standard difference. It exists in other languages too.
And Joyce is Irish. Although I'll happily claim her as being born down the road from me if that's an option.
40:40 TRUTH
Important considerations about the transgender phenomenon and thanks for all that work. I very much support women's calls to protect their own spaces and for fairness in sports. I was appalled at the behaviour of trans activists towards Posie Parker when she visited New Zealand recently, and the inaction by police to protect her and the rights of those who came to hear her views.
I would have liked feminists to respect men's need for their own spaces too, but men's clubs were hounded out of existence by them while at the same time they maintained and expanded the number of female-exclusive services, clubs, business groups, taxi services and more.
The claim that everything is made for males is nonsense, especially when based upon you finding train seats a bit too high for your comfort. Have you done measurements or a survey? You might find that train seats are still a bit low for many men's comfort and that the seat height is a compromise. And of course there are many provisions for women throughout society especially in democratic states.
Remember that feminists laid the foundations for transgender ideology. (That's not to deny that there are some permanently gender dysphoric people - a very small proportion of the population - who will feel much better presenting themselves as the opposite sex.) Those foundations included the early, and in many cases still continuing claims that sex differences are all due to socialization, the feminist version of 'assigned sex at birth'. The foundations also include feminists' hostility towards those who didn't agree with their ideology, or intentional damage to their reputation and careers, very much like the transgender activists do now ('cancel culture' is largely a version of longstanding female in-group, out-group behaviour, ostracizing those who don't conform to whatever criteria their group uses). Also, corruption of scientific rigour in favour of 'advocacy research' with outcomes pre-determined by the methodology, and rejection of 'patriarchal' priorities such as honour, respectful debate, logic and freedom of ideas.
It's a shame to distract from the work against gender ideology by side-tracking into feminist propaganda rather than promoting mutual respect and cooperation between the sexes (and not only on female terms).
For sure Munchausen by Proxy but this was removed from the diagnostic manual I believe?
Okay, I need context. What happened with Genspect?
People who have empathy don’t need to advertise it. Virtue signaling is a red flag.
To think of how stating that there are two sexes is now protected in law under Freedom of Religion and Belief, as if it's a construct of the imagination and not a fact of life, is maddening.
I had to pause the video and try to wrap my head around this. How did we get here? It's almost impossible for me at this point, to not think of the likelihood of the case that all of this mess is being used as pretext for the implementation of a bigger, more dangerous agenda. Never in history has there been a minority group that has received as much support from the government and media outlets. This is not about trans rights. This is one big leap towards technological dystopia. Removing the human from the body and creating the perfect mindless slave, forever dependant on the system.
Synthetic bodies under the pretext of affirmative care, synthetic pregnancies sold as trans women's rights, stunting the brain development of kids and calling it therapy, this is all orchestrated. Don't fall for it. Protect your children. They're the future.
I thought of a couple of other areas in which sex matters: Men taking gynecological resources from women (doctor appointments, taking tampons & menstrual pads, d) prisons, media coverage of crimes, & crime statistics. [I spoke too soon. You guys covered this later in the vid.]
Helen - the Genspect blow up was more to do with Stella O'Malley's behavior towards those with concerns.
good video
Egosyntonic/dystonic - AGPs don't see their behaviour, or the effect it has on others, as a problem.
I wasn’t expecting Helen to use that C-word. 😂
1:07 men and their bones
Helen says all the important stuff. Why is it that women are the ones saying all the important things.
😂* men and their boners
Well I think Richard Dawkins is doing a pretty good job too
This too shall pass.
I'm sorry, I have to ask. What happened at Genspect?
Who are the lobbyists, and where do they get their money from?
Why is Starmer & Labour, not listening to this, amazing woman, speaking the truth and stop all this nonsense.
As context you tube are putting in Trevor project who promote Gender Ideology
When truth has been lost to arbitrary ideology, I don't think it's melodramatic to consider the tectonic implications on civilization.
The host doesn't look middle aged at all. I was guessing the oldest she was... like 33...
She’s definitely a young woman by my standards (Helen also young to me, just not quite as youthful as Stephanie)
JK needs to start a nonprofit that immediately goes on the offense and files suit against individual police officers and their supervisors.
Sex matters is needed in NJ. The BOE got rid of the words male and female.
What????
I saw the title of this and realized its for everyone else. How do people have sex in a world where you only have debt, and everything costs soooo much? Honestly I really do just wish this whole fucking ride was over and obviously cause my life sucked I get reincarnated as a rich person for a free ride. Thats the only thought I look forward too.
This sounds like a cry for help, unrelated to the topic of this video, which I’m not confident you watched. Please reach out to a qualified therapist in your area.
The thing I wonder about is if the reason Gen Z has so many trans people in it might have to do with environmental contamination and plasticizers. No one talks about that, but the world the younger generations are growing up in has so many more hyper novel chemical many of which are endocrine disruptors. I have wondered if biological disruption gives the people odd feelings resulting in more awkwardness and opening the door to social contagion and then the medical industry and social media started grifting off of something that is a real biological issue driving it into something more extreme. It is a perfect storm, but I wonder if the biology is the base and the treatment might mean getting endocrine disrupters out of the water supply.
Check out my interview with Heather Heying! We do talk about this.
Phthalates - fun to spell, fun to say, scary to think about.
Shanna Swan talks about it in the interview with Tom Bilyeu.
social contagion
I am old enough to remember Lobotomies, aversion therapy/torture for homosexuality, memory recovery, numerous dreadful cults, and now this latest destructive cult.
I suspect what happened to Jazz Jennings was plastic surgery by proxy. The mom simply ran out of canvas on her own body.
I agree with a lot of what has been said here, but when discussing Elon Musk perhaps we can acknowledge that Musk has notably been fairly awful to the mothers of all his children (important caveat: when he was romantically involved with them that is), particularly his trans child's mother aka his first wife. Musk is wealthy - that isn't interchangeable with "good person," and I am certainly willing to accept the premise that his child would want to distant themselves as far as they can from him. However, let's not be afraid to call a spade a spade.
Woah what happened to Stephanie's audio setup, very hard to listen to, it's grating on my ears 😩 was not always like this, so something changed
We’re not sure what you mean. Are you sure it’s not your setup?
I could hear every word clearly. Maybe consider investing in a new device - you don’t want to miss a word uttered by Helen Joyce.
@@sometherapistI'm sorry but compare your audio in this episode to episode 88 or 86 and tell me you don't hear a difference!? In all of your prior episodes your audio is warm and like soothing and in this episode it's cold and grating like fingernails on a chalkboard (and to clarify I'm talking about your audio not the guest's). Did you get a new mic or something? To me the difference is clearly noticeable and not in a good way 😬
@@dcitennison5911yeah it's not anything on my end... I've listened to every episode - this is one of my favorite podcasts and I look forward to a new episode every week - and never had a problem until now. It's such a huge sensory issue for me to the point that it's almost physically painful but I love Helen so much that I endured it.