I think one factor you missed is why people play rogue is some decks have art or mechanics you really like and it's a dice roll with every archetype whether Konami decides to actually make it good.
^ Like for the love of myself, idc if Fiendsmith will project us into a tier -2meta, i aint playing a dude that is literally going through a mid-life crisis and decided to become a rockstar
Ice dragons are probably my favorite design across all medium, so imagine getting an archetype who's boss monsters are ice dragons and they couldn't even summon most of them
I have openly refused to play decks with bad/lazy artwork (such as snake eyes, they ruined the beauty of fire kings) and archetypes with uninteresting names; " ____ of the ____ " (such as ice barrier, ashened city, war rock, etc..)
me with harpies. i play harpies in master duel because im a sucker for the art and its extremely easy to play, turns are fast and simple, straightforward.
In fairness though, that argument can also apply to meta decks as well. I didn't want to play Dangers because Danger Darkworld firewall loop was the meta at the time, I wanted to play danger darkworld because I loved the idea of discarding cards to do stuff and I had an ADHD obsession with cryptids.
@@AMV_KINGDOM_mv what I’m saying is to prevent some decks from being broken they get loaded up with restrictions, but then decks that do even more than them are free from said restrictions. Many link decks lock you into archetype-only or link monsters, then you look at snake-eyes and it’s just do whatever you want.
Its not that the engines don't lock you but that we have so much cards that can plus yourself by playing into the "restrictions" or locks, like Promethean Princess for example is the most obvious one where your basically commiting your link 4 or 2 to a fire attribute but the cards that you can go into AND the reborn promethean provides is so much pluses(for example Flamberge is a Link 4 mat, a SP if you kept the effect AND a reborn for 2) that that lock is perfectly fine. Tear mills? We ahve like a hundred card that pluses you if sent tot he grave by effect, Kashtiras? They can convert into any rank 7 and level 10 synchros, Superheavy? You can search 70% of your deck in your turn theres a high chance you won't need those spells anymore. Hell Adamancipators literally didn't even care about needing to run 90% rocks since they built up so much negates and interactions that even just drawing 1 Ash can be enough to stop people even if they answered your board
yugioh really did hit this weird power spike in the past year where decks started doing their whole combo with a single card. Powercreep doesn't even begin to describe what happened. No more than a year ago you could easily play a rogue strategy and see some success but ever since mid 2022 something happened and rogue strategies are just cast to the wayside with little to no ability to be played. Even modern decks that didnt received busted support, something like Vaalmonica for example, see no play cause of just how bad it is in comparison. Even though if vaalmonica released just a year or two prior it probably would see some play.
Me with my Abyss Actor. My archetype is extremely xenophobic but scientific journal-reading requirement, so sometimes I beat people with "haha I pendulum, dont read it"
Main reason why Rogue decks are dead besides some new ones is because Meta decks nowdays are 1 card combo decks that end turn with more cards than they started, Rogue decks that require 2+ cards to start a combo just cannot compete and that's facts, yes u can get M5 easily or even M1 with some of them by struggling but you could have done that in 3 times less games, this is main reason why I ditched Swoso in MD for Despia, it just ain't worth the grind to play the deck that ends on like 2-4 distruptions while losing almost an entire hand. But like I said old Rogue decks got replaced by newer ones, like Unchained, Salamangreat, Supreme King etc.
crazy that you're saying this because I'm literally thinking of dropping Swordsoul (which I just bought in paper a few months before the Baronne ban smh) for Branded. You can play out of your mind against newer decks but every starter being a 2 card combo isn't gonna help you in a top deck war against newer stuff. And Swordsoul is only 2 years old! The power level of the game moves so fast
Exactly. New decks have insane grind abilities. You can destroy their field and they either rebuild from float effects, GY stuff or draw one engine card and 1 card combo off that. Like pendulums using Supreme King stuff. I love Odd Eyes but go through a who hand if I want to play around with weak level 7 XYZs just for giggles. If I want to have resources Magician and Supreme King is way better and can easily combo of one single Pend card or two and loop resources. Its why all pend players now play Supreme King and you dont see Qliports, Majespecters, etc. Or use new Pend archetypes that have resource advantage. OG rogue decks need to be played perfectly and any interruptions you have need to be at the perfect time to stop a meta deck. Rogue decks can win but it takes so much effort to keep up it just makes you want to use the meta and not worry about being perfect.
I used to play mathmech before circular was released. I was so happy when they printed circular. Now that it’s banned not only is the deck shafted into rogue again, but worst of all I’ve completely lost the surprise factor because everyone knows how it works now.
Kind of a hot take here: I would be completely okay with Mathmech unbanning Circular on the condition that the whole deck gets an errata that locks you into Mathmech after using Circular. If I have to negotiate, I would be okay with Alembertian also Mathmech locking you.
@@OseiTheWarriorsNah, we can't have poor joshua cry on streams anymore complaining about mathmech being the worst thing ever to happen to yugioh now can we?
What stings even more is we had a format where this gap seemed to go away and shrink rather recently, which was when the tier 1 decks were Rescue-Ace, Purrely, Tearlament, Unchained, and Mannadium, as Tier 2 and Rogue decks could thrive in them as well with the right pilot. However, pro players complained about it cause they got to experience what it's like being a rogue player (As in you do NOT get free wins). But once Snake-Eyes hit the scene, it was over, the gap became too wide and it's like ripping duct tape off of a hairy open wound, so now it feels more like a problem than ever.
Earth Machine enjoyer since the Ancient Gear GX era; I just like making my own decks and finding my own way to win by figuring out tech and strategies in my own unique deck. I might not win any major tournaments, but at least I'll be able to read, and that alone gives me more wins than people would like to admit.
Tbf, earth machine has been tiered a couple of times. In edison for example Machina is a tier 3 deck (as a reminder edison barely has something resembling tier 1), while Geargia was tier 1 on post Dragon Ruler format before the release of burning abyss, arguably the best deck of HAT format.
@@N12015 I'm still counting it as rogue because I didn't pick it up because it was good, and I didn't put it down when it became bad. I'm just here to have fun playing a children's card game.
I struggled a lot with "Goku's Balls Control" since I couldn't turn my monsters into Super Saiyans. Namek setup takes too long, Hyperbolic Time Chamber was once per duel (before the errata). Meanwhile, "I don't care anymore" triggers an automatic surrender if you play against Machines, and Saiyan Hybrids are banned. However I found out after years in a facebook group that all I needed was a "tingly back feeling". It was so simple. Now all of my monkeys turn into beatsticks for free. Thank you so much @Cabba.
@@CGTradez I don't know, i've never played Dragonball TCG. These were anime references and some mild bickering over DB Super fanservice. Spoiler: - Namek where Goku became Super Saiyan for the first time, those "5 minutes until the planet explodes" lasted half my childhood - Time Chamber where Gohan joined the club, the "errata" was that you can only enter for a limited time in your lifetime but it was changed - Vegeta against the Androids going super for the first time (the piano moment but then 18's kick that broke his pride... em... arm) - Goten/Trunks getting Super Saiyan at a "bargain sale" according to Vegeta since they transform at will with no needed training - DBS explaining how to transform to Super Saiyan by saying "you feel something in your back and poof" while Goku and Vegeta struggled their entire lives to achieve it.
@@babrad l only play db tcg just to enter the local tournament since ultimate battle give 10K$ card and we usually split it for the whole participants, and just play the tourney for fun
@Zekaria_Vanwood that's kind of why I stopped playing. Once tear came out, I made the adjustments, but then it started to feel like I was just playing tearlaments featuring fluffals.
@wmdank4918 I never did try fluffal tear. In tcg my wife plays fluffal with sprind to make merlli to make dragostapelia. Ends up being pretty good if we for some reason end on bahamut shark, toad, i:p with scythe + fluffal in hand. Making sprind with the future whale and i:p to fuse dragostapelia and in the future detach BS material for sprind bounce is kinda nice.
The gap between rogue and meta is MASSIVE right now. The meta decks have no restrictions on them so they can play every best card available while having crazy turn 0 plays in some cases. While decks like dragunity have a very high ceiling, they dont have the flexibility to play around specific hate. Tearlament can still play around zombie world, necrovalley, and shifter, but dragunity cant. A 10 year old deck has restrictions on what it can summon and boss monsters require specific materials while snake eyes, kash, and Tearlament were all playing baronne because why not? Rogue decks are still very scary but they often lose to the same things as meta decks but worse. They require better hands to make "equal" end boards and often lack the longevity if they are broken. Konami decided to leave the restrictions for archetypes behind and that essentially killed every deck from the past
@@Paracelsus. Cycle cherry blossom with curtain and willow to draw your deck and spam the field with synchro material. Depending on your matchup, you can go through bordefly to GY lock, but usually you're trying to end on 2~3 lightshowers. Basically pseudo towers turbo.
@@しろ召喚 I see, I see. Im going to inform myself on the deck some more because they look stupidly fun lol. Do you have any silly tech picks? I love my little silly tech picks and decks that shouldn't have them at all lol
@@Paracelsus.flower cardians are pretty limited with their tech choices because you need a critical mass for top deck and the entire archetype reads „play cardians, the end“. You essentially just play the flower cardians, de-synchro and generic warrior (rota) and dark support (dark eruption) to populate the board with boss monsters and draw your entire deck. You can also play exodia as your wincon but you have to be lucky to not dump the pieces all the time and it shuts down your cardians, a better ftk strategy is synchronized realm which is actually semi consistent and doesn‘t interfere with the engine as much, but in my opinion just making 4 bosses is the optimal route. Most lists online are complete trash. Go easy on the transformed cardians they are not really good and don‘t play super all in. You can build a constructed list for 30$, so have fun.
I like the idea of just upgrading to the next "reskin" of a strategy you like. You could play allergeist and then upgrade to lab or play monarch and now you play floo. But a lot of rogue decks in particular have unique mechanics and playstyles (i personally think this happens a lot more with tcg exclusive decks) like for example. What would be the equivalent of plunder patrol? I feel some people stick to their rogue decks because of their unique way that they are played and aren't just "special summon, add , special summon"
Id say another huge factor is side decking. Rogue decks have to cover for way more weaknesses than current meta. In turn, that means theres more decks at events that they likely couldnt be fully prepared for.
As a rogue player (mekk-knight/horus/punk go second), what I can relate to, is the impredictability of the rogue deck and also the huge gap of power between a rogue and a meta deck. Thus, if the pilot knows what the rogue deck is capable of, innovate and push the deck beyond, you can overrun some top deck (I personnaly finished top 68 over 200 players at french WCQ, a fairly good ratio against considering I got against 6 snake eyes players), clearly snake eyed is better, but this kind of matchups will depend on the player. Against some insane players I got 0-2, but against some wandering players, I 2-0 them in 15 min. On this kind of deck, the knowledge to how to play against going second deck is the most important, knowing that you must let mekk knights players go first is really important, tho few of my opponents though about that, even veterants that already witnessed mekk at its peak a few years ago
I love my Buster Blader deck. It’s been a deck I’ve worked on since 2015 and has increased over time. I win a lot of games in Master Duel but I took it to locals and I barely won any games. While the Buster lock-floodgate is immaculate, it’s easily destroyed with a Raigeki or a Lava Golemn. I can work through most hand traps because I run Branded/Bystials in the deck so they some times try to negate all that engine first while I try and reduce their resources before normal summoning my starter. That’s a deck I play at 40 cards with 12 hand traps and a small 8 card Branded engine. However, with regionals around the corner, I’ve been playing Branded Despia at locals every week. I love the deck, I love the options and I love the play style. It’s a deck that can compete with most other meta decks but it’s still too tough against Snake Eyes unless I puppet lock every time. And they always side in Bystials to deal with my GY. I will be playing rogue decks again after the regional and every time a regional is near, I’ll switch back to meta to practice.
I run into galaxy players quite often actually, at locals and MD. They don’t always pop off, but when they do, I applaud them as I get bonked for double my life point value.
I'd say the start of the death of rogue decks was Dualist Alliance. That set's power level gutted every rogue deck, and some meta ones too. With the power sprint we have seen since, rogues cannot keep up for very long before being left in the dust.
But Duelist Alliance was also an awesome set. During that set’s format, I’ve had friends playing Yugioh that usually do not play Yugioh. Just because the triangle meta was very balanced and fun to be played in a playing group. Given it didn’t last long once Nekroz came out later on, but it was an awesome format and I hope it gathers some support as a legacy format in the years to come.
So, for a Ninja player like me, Who puts monsters face-down and just attack directly ignoring my opponent's monsters, what meta deck can I play to keep this playstyle ?
As a former D/D player (former Yu-Gi-Oh player, actually), the main thing with rogue decks that tend to be lacking are 2 things. First is the amount of staples it's allowed to play without crippling the core of the deck. With D/D, for example, consistent plays for them require at minimum 3 D/D's in hand for basic plays, not to mention which D/D you want. With the exception of liking the deck, why hassle yourself with that when you can play decks far more simple and resilient? Second is resilience. Interaction has severely spiked in modern Yu-Gi-Oh whether going first or second. Nibiru, Ash, and the litany of hand traps are insane to deal with for rogue going first and the 2+ distuptions going second is too much for most rogue decks to handle, although going second has always been a problem in Yu-Gi-Oh, so it's not just a modern Yu-Gi-Oh issue. For D/D's case, If D/D's interrupted at the early stages of its combos, hell, most of the time just once, it's basically lights out for the entire game.
same with my pet deck XD, i cant run staples handtraps because 1. i need to run 3 names that do nothing in hand 2. i need to have at least 2 archetypal pieces in hand to play. i dont have the luxury of 1 combo starter and get infinite card advantage with 4 other handtraps in hand.
Actually, Kepler is a 1 card combo since Gryphon got released into High King Ceasar + Machinex, and you can set up baronne beforehand with orthros + small genghis. The deck needs slightly better follow-up and be much harder to interrupt, which in my opinion would make it tier 2-3 since machinex can eat diabellstar and flamburger and high ceasar stop 2 of any special summons.
Yeah paying $100 just to ensure your pet deck only loses half as fast? No surprise they're dying. Anyway cards shouldn't cost so much, support making proxies indistinguishable from real cards to stick it to the secondary market
I’m so glad you used zombie world as an example. Back in toss format I only played zombie world because it was a auto win against thunder dragon and salad.
This is everyone's daily reminder that no Yugioh format has ever seen the best deck it was capable of while the format was still active. Rogue decks aren't dead, the playerbase's creativity is.
your last point is super interesting and valid. I was an avid zombie player, even in groups to discuss strategies, techs etc but at a certain point it just felt sad that we were all holding on to this old strategy that clearly is not good and needs new (and RELEVANT!) support. So I switched to a newer deck in Swordsoul a few months ago, and what's wild is that Swordsoul is only 2 years old and has been powercrept to a crazy margin, sometimes even the newer shit you switched to is slightly better but still struggles
11:34 "Problems with current girlfriend? Get a new girlfriend! 🤷 What you complaining about?" 😂 Like I explain to my friends who don't like sports, it's only the emotional investment that makes it "your" team. You don't play for it.
Pretty much The issue with yugioh tho zero emotional attachment to anything other then the gameplay loop So nobody likes any deck They like the special summon spam and which ever does it fastest
@@DragonBallsolosyourverseThere is definitely plenty of emotional attachment. The lack of being able to look past these emotional attachments is a big part of the issue.
Marincess one trick here for four years and counting 💙 WE LOVE CRYSTAL HEART 💙💙💙 WE LOVE RESOLVING WAVE 🌊🌊🌊 WE LOVE NEGATING SPELLS WITH ARGONAUT GENERATING FOLLOW-UP FOR THE NEXT TURN🗣🗣🗣‼️‼️‼️🌊🌊🌊
I have just 1 argument against your point: pro players have pet decks too. Josh Schimdt has been playing a lot of Paleo on stream, and he unironically has brought so many eyes to a deck that has been lowkey playable since the release of rollback. I've started playing the deck and had some decent success myself on the MD ladder and in the World's qualifiers tourney right now. I am obviously nowhere near as good as him, but he's not alone. Many of the pro players have pet decks that they absolutely cook with and are active members of said decks' communities. Jesse Kotton with Thunder Dragon and Marincess, Ryan Yu absolutely dominating over and over again with Striker and other rogue options, and I didn't even mention the deck that Josh is truly known for with Runick. Rogue is alive and well, and it isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Players can have pet decks, even good players, but would them use it on an important tournament? Dont think so, hence, that rouge deck would not have representation from that high level player, so Farfa point still stands, its not about the inexistence of rouge decks but the lack of representation in tournaments
Most of the decks you mentioned already enjoyed T1 status so they already proved themselves to be competitive. What Farfa mainly discussed is about decks that have never seen significant results in their time or today's meta, but have the potential to shine with the appropriate brains and resources.
For me, rogue decks have two main characteristics: 1. As you said, and mainly, it makes you feel you're playing something original and different from everyone else. The meta play tends to bring maybe two dominant strategies consistently and most players play those, making you feel you're the outlier of the norm = a satisfying approach to play the game. 2. It is very, very challenging. If you're a real competitor, you will find very entertaining to take down Goliath with a sling, five rocks and a staff. Meta decks can't offer that amount of difficulty for being too good against anything you face. That's why nobody recognizes Kevin Durant's championship runs (with the Warriors). I mean, it's easy to win when you've the most talent = the best deck. That's why nobody respects Tearlaments. It's easy to be good when you've the best weapon, and that is not challenging and/or competitive.
I sort of disagree with the second point. A meta deck can be challenging to play if the skill ceiling of the deck is high. While an average person can beat probably beat rogue with full power tear, that isn’t the case when it comes to mirror matches. Ultimately the difficulty in yugioh is making the correct play with imperfect information which is why a very good player with a rogue deck can beat a meta deck player if they’re just average. Just because a person decides to choose a weaker deck, doesn’t mean they’re more of a competitor. If anything if your goal is to compete and win, why wouldn’t you choose meta
@@huehuehuehue1215 , one thing is to learn how a deck works, which can result challenging if the deck is a complex one like Tearlaments. Another thing is what the deck can do against other strategies, which is why Tearlaments became a Tier 0 deck, and another thing is to apply what you know from the deck against a opponent in order to defeat it, which is something that Tearlaments does very easy for being too good under the right pilot. The only notable difference here is the deck and not the player because the latter it is only a factor when the pilots are not equal in abilities. I mean, because between Joshua Schmidt and Jesse Kotton, the only difference will be Tearlaments, and between Tearlaments and Runick, the only difference will be Tearlaments and the banlist to "balance" it. Who cares about how competitive a mirror match could be between Tearlaments decks when that ONLY happens when those face up? So, let's make everybody play Tearlaments to make Yu-Gi-Oh more competitive? So, what is the point of creating different strategies if only that one can compete or be competitive at high level? So, the NBA should have cloned the 73-9 Golden State Warriors roster and put it in the Eastern Conference in order to watch them face up at NBA Finals because that would have been competitive... What it made competitive the NBA Finals that year was to face a team (LeBron's Cavaliers) with a different composition in their roster, with a different approach to the game and to see who had the best play. That is why is not so competitive to play against the same thing, against you, because you know what your strategy can do and how to counter it. To face the unknown without knowing if your tools can take it out of contest is the real challenge. When you're that unknown, the rogue player with a rogue deck, you really have to hit Goliath with that sling well if you want to win the fight.
I agree. I've won games against meta with my Megalith deck and they've been some of the mos rewarding wins ever (eventhough I probaly won 2 and lost 6 that day lmao). But it is also true that the power gap between decks has gotten to the point where a monkey playing Snake Eye and randomly pressing keys would probably not win, but it would be very hard to beat for a decent rogue player. Also, let us not forget the predatory business practices of Konami, Aka, printing ONE good deck and making it super expensive.
@@rd9669 not all of them, some require some work to get (like Borreload needing at least a link 1), but agreed on barrone though, she was too generic to really work healthily in the game.
And the funniest part is that after the generic cards that these meta decks use get banned, they will still be meta because every other deck loses those same generic cards which then results in rogue decks losing power and their engine cards are lesser card quality than tier one decks to begin with with or without something like I:p, baronne, borreload savage dragon.
I still use my classic elemental heroes. The ones Jaden used in gx. Sparkman, Flame wingman, with new support. I always like finding creative ways to make just those heroes work.
Amazoness and Tear came in the same pack in MD. Every amazoness card has weird restrictions (like once per turn on the field/hand fusion spell), archetypal locks (stops access to the generic ed toolbox + attacking with different monsters) and even "cannot attack the turn it used this effect". Some decks are just meant to be bad, from a design perspective.
Hardleg Joe had a pretty solid video on the power difference between Mets and Rouge. He even added tiers under Rouge that really added some perspective to the power difference (or lack of difference) between them
While I do appreciate that there are a lot of playstyles with multiple different iterations, like trap decks, one of the best things about Yugioh is how unique some decks play to others. Decks like Ghoti, which spend their turn setting up their combos for your turn or Generaider, which sets up protection for the plays they make off of the opponent are some of many playstyles that have yet to have an abundance of interpretations to draw from. Heck, the main reason why Eldlich is my favorite trap deck is because of the Trap Monsters, an aspect that none of the other iterations have. Just a really unique mechanic that's really fun to use
@@DragonBallsolosyourverse Most of the decks I like to play summon like 5 monsters tops in a turn. My favorite decks are the old defend the castle decks like Bujins, Dinomorphia or the new Millennium Exodia support where the entire point of the deck is to defend one big boy. Will definitely give you the searching part though, every good archetype should search at least twice per turn
I had accepted that most of my pet decks have had their time in the sun and are now peacefully resting on a farm upstate, and that learning the new decks is a worthwhile endeavour even if I chose not to play in a certain format. Then Konami decided that Lara should get a new Wyrm friend and WE’RE SO FUCKING BACK BABY RITUAL BEAST 10TH BEST DECK IT’S 2015 ALL OVER AGAIN
I mean this seems like it's mostly about how decks that were rogue in 2021 are no longer rogue now - and yeah as the game changes that's gonna happen. This isn't rogue decks dying this is just a change in which decks are rogue
@@DragonBallsolosyourverse The reason Altergeist and BA are no longer viable rogue choices is due to time, the reason Memento and Shining Sarcophagus are bad is that they aren't good decks - just like Solfachord was never good. The only way this is considered a problem is if you think every deck has to be at some point good
Ok but all the decks aint meta so clearly its not a time issue Yubel Clear Are all new decks Its just a balancing issue Yugioh is play tier zero or lose
Also, another big issue in the TCG is that no rogue decks are safe anymore. With the way the TCG banlist works so hard to push new product you feel like your pet deck always has a target on its back even if it's not seeing a ton of success at the time. Dragon link, plants, etc all come to mind; not to mention the January 2020 banlist where rogue/tier 2 decks got obliterated along with the top 4 decks.
I think it's most likely because the general use cards since it is generic good decks usually don't get affected but less powerfull deck suffer so much because of it
@@matthewherlihy1106that card and cards like it need to be banned. Nothing about the attack decrease is broken it’s the fact you have an extra deck monster that’s also an extender that can receive itself
@rd9669 I wasn't discussing whether it's banworthy or not, nor do I have any interest in doing so. It's the fact that it's probably one of, if not, the best and most generic link 1 bridges we had that its banning hurt a lot rouge decks in a weird sort of way.
I usually play Rogue because I don’t want to copy verbatim what pro players do and I want to play strategies that I enjoy. Most of my decklists are ones I came up with from scratch, whether they are good or not. It’s why at my locals I am known going X1 with a Skull Servant pile deck or Icejade Sharks, or getting my first regional top with a plant deck that played no Sunavalon cards at the height of Snake Eye Fire king’s popularity. Not saying there’s anything wrong with playing meta or picking up decks because a pro player played them, meta, rogue, or otherwise, but I always found enjoyment out of making a deck myself or with a friend and seeing how far I could take it. And I usually do better with decks that way than I do with a meta strategy.
I mean when your ban list hits generically powerful cards rogue decks lose more power than the tier 1 decks. As much as we don’t like it floodgates can be an equalizer. That doesn’t mean they’re right or good for the game but they do make rogue decks more viable in the meta.
Uh, kind of? Yes, a lot of power cards get hit that hurt rogue strategies by proxy, but unless it's an archetypical floodgate, you're *rogue deck* is just a typical case of: "Oh, hey! I drew the card that says you can't play anymore!" Or maybe I'm still salty at losing to summon limit in MD...
@@dominicott5939 don’t disagree at all especially in MD since it’s a best of one. They do give the illusion of diversity instead of making a deck great. I do just really hate watching snake eye mirrors so maybe that’s just my bias leaking out.
@geiseric222 but it was the ONLY deck. If I wanted to play with no variety if you want to win through skill I'd play chess. So go ahead and learn some openings
You see the definition rogue is changing because past meta decks and decks like Red Dragon Archfiend are power are being considered rogue and power creeping other rouge decks into the tier 3 category famously known as just for fun or crap decks.
I believe the biggest reason for the power gap would be consistency, coz the Tier decks all have about 10/12 1 card starters and a further few 2 to 3 card combos to extend and on top of that they all have very good grind game... Whereas the Rogue decks mostly consist of 2 card combo eg BA, Sword Soul etc. And this is a manger factor because 1 or 2 hand traps won't stop SE from setting up a decent board with follow up but 1 imperm/vailer stops majority or Rogua decks
I think you nailed it with the power gap. Even new rogue decks like Memento, Goblin Biker etc cannot hope to compete. It's not a case of "just play the new rogue", it's a power escalation that has made the difference untenable. If a deck is playing 20+ handtraps and the rest are one card starters, what is a rogue deck meant to do to compete with that? You just get stopped from playing. Especially when Nib can be paired with a Veiler/Imperm very regularly due to the ratios. You can't innovate past regularly occurring 3 interruptions or a Nib/Veiler other than stun.
If decks weren’t an average of 700+ dollars more average people might play meta because they can actually buy the fucking cards and don’t need a loan to get them. This needs to be the first thing that changes within the game
As a rogue player I think the only format in the last 10 years that was really frustrating was Tear format. I think right now there’s a lot of rogue strats that can win out against the meta if practiced enough! I’ve been running EvilEye! I top 4 all my locals and I’ve gotten 3 regional invites this year along with 1 top8 at Los Angeles going 9-1. I think a lot of times when the format is “solved” YGO players get really discouraged to try anything else but really it’s another opportunity!
I like Altergeist, but I'm not going to replace it with a coomer waifu deck just because it's stronger. Konami needs to stop releasing so many powerful cards and let the back end of the game catch up.
Ive been maining swordsoul in the current meta in MD not sure if they are classed as rogue rn as im pretty sure they arent meta. Funnily enough ive built other meta decks in the past but always go back to my swordsoul lol
I main a rogue deck, specifically Vaylantz, just because it’s a hell of a board-breaker deck that plays into Snake-Eyes habit of placing their monsters in the Spell/Trap zone
I was trying fireking snake eyes deck and someone with structure deck cyberdark tried everything to clear my board but ended up using all his resources and I was ended up 9 cards on board with 7 cards in hand on his turn.
One of the only advantages rogue deck have is that the opponent doesn't know what you're doing. I have the problem that (as a LiveTwin player) my deck has been part of a really meta deck so everybody knows what I'm doing. Yeah I'm having real trouble winning
I’ve actually been having a lot of fun building and playing a synchro/link climb mikanko deck. I really cooked the combos, but because mikanko is at least strong enough to stand on its own, I.e: Ni Ni with Arabesque plus 1-2 disruptions can actually shut down a lot of meta board states.
Most rogue needs draw spells, floodgates, and omnis while be unable to play a large number of hand traps without bricking this is fine and all but when the game is banning those cards while leaving hand traps untouched that's what hurts.
DDD does okay against many things but feels like even with all it can put out, it always feels like snake eyes just has more, being able to play through most endboards. Been able to take some game from stuff like Labyrinth and Tear at least, which always feels good.
Nice to see another DDD player. I feel it's a deck that can at least compete. One of the few rogue strategies that has true one card combos and can play through multiple negations with even a decent opener.
I think one factor you missed is why people play rogue is some decks have art or mechanics you really like and it's a dice roll with every archetype whether Konami decides to actually make it good.
^
Like for the love of myself, idc if Fiendsmith will project us into a tier -2meta, i aint playing a dude that is literally going through a mid-life crisis and decided to become a rockstar
Ice dragons are probably my favorite design across all medium, so imagine getting an archetype who's boss monsters are ice dragons and they couldn't even summon most of them
I have openly refused to play decks with bad/lazy artwork (such as snake eyes, they ruined the beauty of fire kings) and archetypes with uninteresting names;
" ____ of the ____ " (such as ice barrier, ashened city, war rock, etc..)
me with harpies. i play harpies in master duel because im a sucker for the art and its extremely easy to play, turns are fast and simple, straightforward.
In fairness though, that argument can also apply to meta decks as well. I didn't want to play Dangers because Danger Darkworld firewall loop was the meta at the time, I wanted to play danger darkworld because I loved the idea of discarding cards to do stuff and I had an ADHD obsession with cryptids.
This will never change until YGO players can finally start typing "rogue" instead of "rouge" 🤷♂️
Well excuse me for preferring to build my deck solely out of cards with red artwork.
They can't even distinguish regional (singular) vs regionals (plural)
rouge dragon archfiend
You think we already learnt how to read and should start learning how to write?
Real
The fact that weaker decks have big restrictions and strong decks don’t is totally wack.
Yugioh is a plus card advantage game and a resource game
@@AMV_KINGDOM_mv what I’m saying is to prevent some decks from being broken they get loaded up with restrictions, but then decks that do even more than them are free from said restrictions. Many link decks lock you into archetype-only or link monsters, then you look at snake-eyes and it’s just do whatever you want.
I think everything should have restrictions or nothing.
@@AMV_KINGDOM_mv Did you reply to the wrong comment by accident?
Well, if the weaker decks had less restrictions, they'd be strong. If the stronger decks had more restrictions, they'd be weak.
And we're back again.
As a rouge deck player i can confirm I'm dead
Rogue**********
Not big surprise
True
As a Rouge player myself I can say that I do like bats
*Gasp!* That rogue deck is dead! WHY is the rogue deck ded?
Doesn't anyone find it odd rogue decks are far slower nowadays with an engine. Now we're seeing busted engines that don't even lock you into anything
Its not that the engines don't lock you but that we have so much cards that can plus yourself by playing into the "restrictions" or locks, like Promethean Princess for example is the most obvious one where your basically commiting your link 4 or 2 to a fire attribute but the cards that you can go into AND the reborn promethean provides is so much pluses(for example Flamberge is a Link 4 mat, a SP if you kept the effect AND a reborn for 2) that that lock is perfectly fine.
Tear mills? We ahve like a hundred card that pluses you if sent tot he grave by effect, Kashtiras? They can convert into any rank 7 and level 10 synchros, Superheavy? You can search 70% of your deck in your turn theres a high chance you won't need those spells anymore.
Hell Adamancipators literally didn't even care about needing to run 90% rocks since they built up so much negates and interactions that even just drawing 1 Ash can be enough to stop people even if they answered your board
You have engines? I play meta so everything is just a one card combo. No engines required
@@masterflamewing234 "One card combo" is the starter of said engine.
yugioh really did hit this weird power spike in the past year where decks started doing their whole combo with a single card. Powercreep doesn't even begin to describe what happened. No more than a year ago you could easily play a rogue strategy and see some success but ever since mid 2022 something happened and rogue strategies are just cast to the wayside with little to no ability to be played. Even modern decks that didnt received busted support, something like Vaalmonica for example, see no play cause of just how bad it is in comparison. Even though if vaalmonica released just a year or two prior it probably would see some play.
@@Zekaria_Vanwood Pote is one hell of a drug
Rogue deck wincon in Master Duel: opponent time-out reading cards.
Opponent be like: WTF Endymion actually do does?
If that's the win condition activate grass.
Present them with 20 new cards to read at once
This reminds me of that Peeps Tistina video where he went 10-0 because none of his opponent have any idea what his cards do
@@melissagrenier2200Infernoids lol
Me with my Abyss Actor. My archetype is extremely xenophobic but scientific journal-reading requirement, so sometimes I beat people with "haha I pendulum, dont read it"
Main reason why Rogue decks are dead besides some new ones is because Meta decks nowdays are 1 card combo decks that end turn with more cards than they started, Rogue decks that require 2+ cards to start a combo just cannot compete and that's facts, yes u can get M5 easily or even M1 with some of them by struggling but you could have done that in 3 times less games, this is main reason why I ditched Swoso in MD for Despia, it just ain't worth the grind to play the deck that ends on like 2-4 distruptions while losing almost an entire hand.
But like I said old Rogue decks got replaced by newer ones, like Unchained, Salamangreat, Supreme King etc.
I agree, rogue decks are replaced by a new version of themselves... Except Earth MAchine. Earth Machine just gets more machines.
crazy that you're saying this because I'm literally thinking of dropping Swordsoul (which I just bought in paper a few months before the Baronne ban smh) for Branded. You can play out of your mind against newer decks but every starter being a 2 card combo isn't gonna help you in a top deck war against newer stuff. And Swordsoul is only 2 years old! The power level of the game moves so fast
Exactly lol..how am i suppose to fight back when i need like 3 cards to do a bland move compared to these tier decks😂..not fun
Exactly. New decks have insane grind abilities. You can destroy their field and they either rebuild from float effects, GY stuff or draw one engine card and 1 card combo off that. Like pendulums using Supreme King stuff. I love Odd Eyes but go through a who hand if I want to play around with weak level 7 XYZs just for giggles. If I want to have resources Magician and Supreme King is way better and can easily combo of one single Pend card or two and loop resources. Its why all pend players now play Supreme King and you dont see Qliports, Majespecters, etc. Or use new Pend archetypes that have resource advantage. OG rogue decks need to be played perfectly and any interruptions you have need to be at the perfect time to stop a meta deck. Rogue decks can win but it takes so much effort to keep up it just makes you want to use the meta and not worry about being perfect.
M1 grinding is easy even on rogue decks, average master meta player misplays more than enough to tighten the gap if you pilot your deck well
I used to play mathmech before circular was released. I was so happy when they printed circular. Now that it’s banned not only is the deck shafted into rogue again, but worst of all I’ve completely lost the surprise factor because everyone knows how it works now.
They really need to unban Circular it never needed a hit and if it came back now it wouldn't do anything Meta-wise
I think I'd rather play against Sneks than suffer through a cyberse combo ever again.
Kind of a hot take here:
I would be completely okay with Mathmech unbanning Circular on the condition that the whole deck gets an errata that locks you into Mathmech after using Circular. If I have to negotiate, I would be okay with Alembertian also Mathmech locking you.
You deserve it for playing Mathmech tbh.
Sincerely, a former Mathmech player.
@@OseiTheWarriorsNah, we can't have poor joshua cry on streams anymore complaining about mathmech being the worst thing ever to happen to yugioh now can we?
What stings even more is we had a format where this gap seemed to go away and shrink rather recently, which was when the tier 1 decks were Rescue-Ace, Purrely, Tearlament, Unchained, and Mannadium, as Tier 2 and Rogue decks could thrive in them as well with the right pilot. However, pro players complained about it cause they got to experience what it's like being a rogue player (As in you do NOT get free wins). But once Snake-Eyes hit the scene, it was over, the gap became too wide and it's like ripping duct tape off of a hairy open wound, so now it feels more like a problem than ever.
Earth Machine enjoyer since the Ancient Gear GX era; I just like making my own decks and finding my own way to win by figuring out tech and strategies in my own unique deck. I might not win any major tournaments, but at least I'll be able to read, and that alone gives me more wins than people would like to admit.
I also try whacky stuff in Drytron. Spooky Dogwood + Ancient Sacred Wyvern (that you make with Diviner + 1 Drytron) is my most recent idea.
Tbf, earth machine has been tiered a couple of times. In edison for example Machina is a tier 3 deck (as a reminder edison barely has something resembling tier 1), while Geargia was tier 1 on post Dragon Ruler format before the release of burning abyss, arguably the best deck of HAT format.
@@N12015 I'm still counting it as rogue because I didn't pick it up because it was good, and I didn't put it down when it became bad. I'm just here to have fun playing a children's card game.
i dont sh1t on meta players i sh1t on konami for not noticing that 95% decks is sanke eyes on every single event
Also even if people say prices of staples dont matter to much, its still a huge barrier of entry for people coming from md
I struggled a lot with "Goku's Balls Control" since I couldn't turn my monsters into Super Saiyans. Namek setup takes too long, Hyperbolic Time Chamber was once per duel (before the errata). Meanwhile, "I don't care anymore" triggers an automatic surrender if you play against Machines, and Saiyan Hybrids are banned.
However I found out after years in a facebook group that all I needed was a "tingly back feeling". It was so simple. Now all of my monkeys turn into beatsticks for free. Thank you so much @Cabba.
Is that a dbz stun deck?
@@CGTradez I don't know, i've never played Dragonball TCG. These were anime references and some mild bickering over DB Super fanservice. Spoiler:
- Namek where Goku became Super Saiyan for the first time, those "5 minutes until the planet explodes" lasted half my childhood
- Time Chamber where Gohan joined the club, the "errata" was that you can only enter for a limited time in your lifetime but it was changed
- Vegeta against the Androids going super for the first time (the piano moment but then 18's kick that broke his pride... em... arm)
- Goten/Trunks getting Super Saiyan at a "bargain sale" according to Vegeta since they transform at will with no needed training
- DBS explaining how to transform to Super Saiyan by saying "you feel something in your back and poof" while Goku and Vegeta struggled their entire lives to achieve it.
@@babrad l only play db tcg just to enter the local tournament since ultimate battle give 10K$ card and we usually split it for the whole participants, and just play the tourney for fun
Ive accepted that my fluffals might not even be rogue, but damn it if it isnt fun when it gets to pop off
As an earth machine player, i agree
Skyhawks made me believe fluffals could be rogue 🧸
Sad to say but the only success I've found with fluffals (at least on MD) is to cram a small snake eyes engine into it with diabellstar.
@Zekaria_Vanwood that's kind of why I stopped playing. Once tear came out, I made the adjustments, but then it started to feel like I was just playing tearlaments featuring fluffals.
@wmdank4918 I never did try fluffal tear. In tcg my wife plays fluffal with sprind to make merlli to make dragostapelia. Ends up being pretty good if we for some reason end on bahamut shark, toad, i:p with scythe + fluffal in hand.
Making sprind with the future whale and i:p to fuse dragostapelia and in the future detach BS material for sprind bounce is kinda nice.
The gap between rogue and meta is MASSIVE right now. The meta decks have no restrictions on them so they can play every best card available while having crazy turn 0 plays in some cases. While decks like dragunity have a very high ceiling, they dont have the flexibility to play around specific hate. Tearlament can still play around zombie world, necrovalley, and shifter, but dragunity cant. A 10 year old deck has restrictions on what it can summon and boss monsters require specific materials while snake eyes, kash, and Tearlament were all playing baronne because why not?
Rogue decks are still very scary but they often lose to the same things as meta decks but worse. They require better hands to make "equal" end boards and often lack the longevity if they are broken. Konami decided to leave the restrictions for archetypes behind and that essentially killed every deck from the past
My flower cardian deck is the secret guu for this format 👀
I've always been interested in that archetype but my brain power is too low, if you don't mind, what's your strategy?
@@Paracelsus. Cycle cherry blossom with curtain and willow to draw your deck and spam the field with synchro material. Depending on your matchup, you can go through bordefly to GY lock, but usually you're trying to end on 2~3 lightshowers. Basically pseudo towers turbo.
@@しろ召喚 I see, I see. Im going to inform myself on the deck some more because they look stupidly fun lol.
Do you have any silly tech picks? I love my little silly tech picks and decks that shouldn't have them at all lol
Flower Cardians are always the guu.
At losing to time.
@@Paracelsus.flower cardians are pretty limited with their tech choices because you need a critical mass for top deck and the entire archetype reads „play cardians, the end“. You essentially just play the flower cardians, de-synchro and generic warrior (rota) and dark support (dark eruption) to populate the board with boss monsters and draw your entire deck. You can also play exodia as your wincon but you have to be lucky to not dump the pieces all the time and it shuts down your cardians, a better ftk strategy is synchronized realm which is actually semi consistent and doesn‘t interfere with the engine as much, but in my opinion just making 4 bosses is the optimal route.
Most lists online are complete trash. Go easy on the transformed cardians they are not really good and don‘t play super all in. You can build a constructed list for 30$, so have fun.
Dying??? Say that to my VW face 😔🤌
I also like to play a Skill Drain turbo deck,
Why are you playing VW Tiger Catapult? Isn’t ABC just that deck but good?
...your volkswagen face?
Virtual World. Yeah. Kind of fell hard when VFD got banned.
Dying
I like the idea of just upgrading to the next "reskin" of a strategy you like. You could play allergeist and then upgrade to lab or play monarch and now you play floo. But a lot of rogue decks in particular have unique mechanics and playstyles (i personally think this happens a lot more with tcg exclusive decks) like for example. What would be the equivalent of plunder patrol? I feel some people stick to their rogue decks because of their unique way that they are played and aren't just "special summon, add , special summon"
The fact
A deck that's not even a week old is legit unplayable shows how badly designed this game would be
I can't wait to upgrade from Blue-Eyes to Tenpai.
Id say another huge factor is side decking. Rogue decks have to cover for way more weaknesses than current meta. In turn, that means theres more decks at events that they likely couldnt be fully prepared for.
Wow I didn't even know Farfer invented swosou. Crazy!
As a rogue player (mekk-knight/horus/punk go second), what I can relate to, is the impredictability of the rogue deck and also the huge gap of power between a rogue and a meta deck.
Thus, if the pilot knows what the rogue deck is capable of, innovate and push the deck beyond, you can overrun some top deck (I personnaly finished top 68 over 200 players at french WCQ, a fairly good ratio against considering I got against 6 snake eyes players), clearly snake eyed is better, but this kind of matchups will depend on the player.
Against some insane players I got 0-2, but against some wandering players, I 2-0 them in 15 min.
On this kind of deck, the knowledge to how to play against going second deck is the most important, knowing that you must let mekk knights players go first is really important, tho few of my opponents though about that, even veterants that already witnessed mekk at its peak a few years ago
Horus is not a rogue deck
I love my Buster Blader deck. It’s been a deck I’ve worked on since 2015 and has increased over time. I win a lot of games in Master Duel but I took it to locals and I barely won any games. While the Buster lock-floodgate is immaculate, it’s easily destroyed with a Raigeki or a Lava Golemn. I can work through most hand traps because I run Branded/Bystials in the deck so they some times try to negate all that engine first while I try and reduce their resources before normal summoning my starter. That’s a deck I play at 40 cards with 12 hand traps and a small 8 card Branded engine. However, with regionals around the corner, I’ve been playing Branded Despia at locals every week. I love the deck, I love the options and I love the play style. It’s a deck that can compete with most other meta decks but it’s still too tough against Snake Eyes unless I puppet lock every time. And they always side in Bystials to deal with my GY. I will be playing rogue decks again after the regional and every time a regional is near, I’ll switch back to meta to practice.
That was surprisingly really REALLY well thought out and analyzed
Good job !
I know my Galaxy deck is not even a rogue deck, but it's definitely fun when you pop
It actually is with the new tachyon support
@@goblinslayer1115 Glad to hear that ❤️
@@goblinslayer1115 say less, galaxy gang for life 💜💜😂😂
I run into galaxy players quite often actually, at locals and MD. They don’t always pop off, but when they do, I applaud them as I get bonked for double my life point value.
@@Endershock1678 Beautiful
I'd say the start of the death of rogue decks was Dualist Alliance. That set's power level gutted every rogue deck, and some meta ones too. With the power sprint we have seen since, rogues cannot keep up for very long before being left in the dust.
But Duelist Alliance was also an awesome set. During that set’s format, I’ve had friends playing Yugioh that usually do not play Yugioh. Just because the triangle meta was very balanced and fun to be played in a playing group. Given it didn’t last long once Nekroz came out later on, but it was an awesome format and I hope it gathers some support as a legacy format in the years to come.
So, for a Ninja player like me, Who puts monsters face-down and just attack directly ignoring my opponent's monsters, what meta deck can I play to keep this playstyle ?
Ngl, the first time I faced Ninjas, I felt like my opponent was playing budget Kashtira because it's basically a zone lock deck.
@@dudono1744 But can Kashtira attack directly while ignoring my opponent's board tho ?
@@jeanriviere2599 It just makes the board non-existent in the first place so, kinda.
Six Samurai
A discussion on deck gimmicks, ie: flip, column, prediction... gemini... and where they fail would be kinda dope too
I started playing lunalights when they first came out and I'm still trying to optimise them to this day
As a former D/D player (former Yu-Gi-Oh player, actually), the main thing with rogue decks that tend to be lacking are 2 things.
First is the amount of staples it's allowed to play without crippling the core of the deck. With D/D, for example, consistent plays for them require at minimum 3 D/D's in hand for basic plays, not to mention which D/D you want. With the exception of liking the deck, why hassle yourself with that when you can play decks far more simple and resilient?
Second is resilience. Interaction has severely spiked in modern Yu-Gi-Oh whether going first or second. Nibiru, Ash, and the litany of hand traps are insane to deal with for rogue going first and the 2+ distuptions going second is too much for most rogue decks to handle, although going second has always been a problem in Yu-Gi-Oh, so it's not just a modern Yu-Gi-Oh issue. For D/D's case, If D/D's interrupted at the early stages of its combos, hell, most of the time just once, it's basically lights out for the entire game.
same with my pet deck XD, i cant run staples handtraps because 1. i need to run 3 names that do nothing in hand 2. i need to have at least 2 archetypal pieces in hand to play. i dont have the luxury of 1 combo starter and get infinite card advantage with 4 other handtraps in hand.
Actually, Kepler is a 1 card combo since Gryphon got released into High King Ceasar + Machinex, and you can set up baronne beforehand with orthros + small genghis. The deck needs slightly better follow-up and be much harder to interrupt, which in my opinion would make it tier 2-3 since machinex can eat diabellstar and flamburger and high ceasar stop 2 of any special summons.
Baronne, sure. @@CupOfTea
@@CoreaDiHuntington Swirl slime + 1 D/D into genghis, normal summon Orthros. the link only locks after it is summoned
@@CupOfTea BRO BARONNE IS BANNED WAKE UP
Yeah paying $100 just to ensure your pet deck only loses half as fast? No surprise they're dying.
Anyway cards shouldn't cost so much, support making proxies indistinguishable from real cards to stick it to the secondary market
Most people who play are ycs players ever thought of that
I’m so glad you used zombie world as an example. Back in toss format I only played zombie world because it was a auto win against thunder dragon and salad.
So what's the Tier of Infernoble Knights in MD? Are they rogue or high tier or just tier 4.
Infernoble mikanko pile is tier 1 for sure, they have promethean and isolde.
Nice fade Nadir
9:28 "how big was the gyatt?"
Paleozoics = rogue
Ojamas = rogue
Paleojamas = Chad
Where can I find that tier list
If my girl and mo ye are burning...
I call the firefighters
Mo Ye is water so she has type advantage, it will be fine
Ban bonfire
@@user-jq5gc6dx7k _uses flamethrower_ it's not very effective
@@Liliana_the_ghost_cat *takes the flamethrower out of their hands and throws it at mo ye and that guy's girl*
(A CRITICAL HIT!)
Oh you're an Ace fan...oh....
This is everyone's daily reminder that no Yugioh format has ever seen the best deck it was capable of while the format was still active. Rogue decks aren't dead, the playerbase's creativity is.
your last point is super interesting and valid. I was an avid zombie player, even in groups to discuss strategies, techs etc but at a certain point it just felt sad that we were all holding on to this old strategy that clearly is not good and needs new (and RELEVANT!) support. So I switched to a newer deck in Swordsoul a few months ago, and what's wild is that Swordsoul is only 2 years old and has been powercrept to a crazy margin, sometimes even the newer shit you switched to is slightly better but still struggles
11:34 "Problems with current girlfriend? Get a new girlfriend! 🤷 What you complaining about?" 😂 Like I explain to my friends who don't like sports, it's only the emotional investment that makes it "your" team. You don't play for it.
Pretty much
The issue with yugioh tho zero emotional attachment to anything other then the gameplay loop
So nobody likes any deck
They like the special summon spam and which ever does it fastest
@@DragonBallsolosyourverseThere is definitely plenty of emotional attachment. The lack of being able to look past these emotional attachments is a big part of the issue.
0:20 did u see it?!
Hey Farfa, if you’re going to put chapters to section-out your video, can you mark them using TH-cam so it’s easier to skip around?
Do NOT tell him
I just don't find curb stomping my opponent with OP cards fun, I enjoyed playing R-ACE more before they added snake-eyes/Diabelstar.
Same. Now I'm just disgusted at the deck.
I really like the discussion vids. Please keep them coming.
Marincess one trick here for four years and counting 💙 WE LOVE CRYSTAL HEART 💙💙💙 WE LOVE RESOLVING WAVE 🌊🌊🌊 WE LOVE NEGATING SPELLS WITH ARGONAUT GENERATING FOLLOW-UP FOR THE NEXT TURN🗣🗣🗣‼️‼️‼️🌊🌊🌊
I have just 1 argument against your point: pro players have pet decks too. Josh Schimdt has been playing a lot of Paleo on stream, and he unironically has brought so many eyes to a deck that has been lowkey playable since the release of rollback. I've started playing the deck and had some decent success myself on the MD ladder and in the World's qualifiers tourney right now. I am obviously nowhere near as good as him, but he's not alone. Many of the pro players have pet decks that they absolutely cook with and are active members of said decks' communities. Jesse Kotton with Thunder Dragon and Marincess, Ryan Yu absolutely dominating over and over again with Striker and other rogue options, and I didn't even mention the deck that Josh is truly known for with Runick. Rogue is alive and well, and it isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Sadly the only "rogue is alive and well" deck was the only one that used to be meta
Other option just quickly vanished into shadow realm
transaction is just a broken card
Decks you mention are META in their own time.
Players can have pet decks, even good players, but would them use it on an important tournament? Dont think so, hence, that rouge deck would not have representation from that high level player, so Farfa point still stands, its not about the inexistence of rouge decks but the lack of representation in tournaments
Most of the decks you mentioned already enjoyed T1 status so they already proved themselves to be competitive. What Farfa mainly discussed is about decks that have never seen significant results in their time or today's meta, but have the potential to shine with the appropriate brains and resources.
For me, rogue decks have two main characteristics:
1. As you said, and mainly, it makes you feel you're playing something original and different from everyone else. The meta play tends to bring maybe two dominant strategies consistently and most players play those, making you feel you're the outlier of the norm = a satisfying approach to play the game.
2. It is very, very challenging. If you're a real competitor, you will find very entertaining to take down Goliath with a sling, five rocks and a staff. Meta decks can't offer that amount of difficulty for being too good against anything you face. That's why nobody recognizes Kevin Durant's championship runs (with the Warriors). I mean, it's easy to win when you've the most talent = the best deck.
That's why nobody respects Tearlaments. It's easy to be good when you've the best weapon, and that is not challenging and/or competitive.
I sort of disagree with the second point. A meta deck can be challenging to play if the skill ceiling of the deck is high. While an average person can beat probably beat rogue with full power tear, that isn’t the case when it comes to mirror matches.
Ultimately the difficulty in yugioh is making the correct play with imperfect information which is why a very good player with a rogue deck can beat a meta deck player if they’re just average.
Just because a person decides to choose a weaker deck, doesn’t mean they’re more of a competitor. If anything if your goal is to compete and win, why wouldn’t you choose meta
When I see tearlament I just say screw it I won't even get to play the game
@@huehuehuehue1215 , one thing is to learn how a deck works, which can result challenging if the deck is a complex one like Tearlaments. Another thing is what the deck can do against other strategies, which is why Tearlaments became a Tier 0 deck, and another thing is to apply what you know from the deck against a opponent in order to defeat it, which is something that Tearlaments does very easy for being too good under the right pilot.
The only notable difference here is the deck and not the player because the latter it is only a factor when the pilots are not equal in abilities. I mean, because between Joshua Schmidt and Jesse Kotton, the only difference will be Tearlaments, and between Tearlaments and Runick, the only difference will be Tearlaments and the banlist to "balance" it.
Who cares about how competitive a mirror match could be between Tearlaments decks when that ONLY happens when those face up?
So, let's make everybody play Tearlaments to make Yu-Gi-Oh more competitive? So, what is the point of creating different strategies if only that one can compete or be competitive at high level?
So, the NBA should have cloned the 73-9 Golden State Warriors roster and put it in the Eastern Conference in order to watch them face up at NBA Finals because that would have been competitive...
What it made competitive the NBA Finals that year was to face a team (LeBron's Cavaliers) with a different composition in their roster, with a different approach to the game and to see who had the best play.
That is why is not so competitive to play against the same thing, against you, because you know what your strategy can do and how to counter it.
To face the unknown without knowing if your tools can take it out of contest is the real challenge. When you're that unknown, the rogue player with a rogue deck, you really have to hit Goliath with that sling well if you want to win the fight.
Tons of people respect kds rings though lol
I agree. I've won games against meta with my Megalith deck and they've been some of the mos rewarding wins ever (eventhough I probaly won 2 and lost 6 that day lmao). But it is also true that the power gap between decks has gotten to the point where a monkey playing Snake Eye and randomly pressing keys would probably not win, but it would be very hard to beat for a decent rogue player. Also, let us not forget the predatory business practices of Konami, Aka, printing ONE good deck and making it super expensive.
That's just the cycle.
Rogue decks drift around since the term was actually coined
i love that just not being a meta slave is being called rogue like its meant to sound bad for having a deck thats just supposed to be fun
Swordsoul being considered rogue just feels wrong. Power creep has gone way too far
It’s best synchro isn’t even a swordsoul 😂😂😂
@@rd9669Not anymore in TCG since Barrone is ganked. Konami once again screwing over affordable options.
@@Eyeshield11721 generic Omni negates are terrible for the game and easy to make Omni negates definitely need to go.
@@rd9669 not all of them, some require some work to get (like Borreload needing at least a link 1), but agreed on barrone though, she was too generic to really work healthily in the game.
It can be even worse because all of them already been extinct (lorewise) so,there no reason to make new swordsoul support cards
Because all the generic cards that enable rouge decks get hit cause the keta decks abuse them
And the funniest part is that after the generic cards that these meta decks use get banned, they will still be meta because every other deck loses those same generic cards which then results in rogue decks losing power and their engine cards are lesser card quality than tier one decks to begin with with or without something like I:p, baronne, borreload savage dragon.
Duel links colimiting system is so based because of this
Can confirm as a Earth Machine player I crumble to a negate and I open up with box.
I still use my classic elemental heroes. The ones Jaden used in gx. Sparkman, Flame wingman, with new support. I always like finding creative ways to make just those heroes work.
Amazoness and Tear came in the same pack in MD. Every amazoness card has weird restrictions (like once per turn on the field/hand fusion spell), archetypal locks (stops access to the generic ed toolbox + attacking with different monsters) and even "cannot attack the turn it used this effect". Some decks are just meant to be bad, from a design perspective.
My dinos 🦕🦖🫠🥲🥺
Free my boy Miscellaneousaurus he didn't do nothing
@@duelistemissary7680 man that nigga didn't do 💩 bro..
free misc would do wonders for this deck
@Birginio420 all this broken 💩 out idk why he wouldn't put it at 3
I have a Rogue anti-meta deck consisting of Lair of Darkness + its supports, Labrynth, Waking the Dragon and Fang of Critias.
Hardleg Joe had a pretty solid video on the power difference between Mets and Rouge. He even added tiers under Rouge that really added some perspective to the power difference (or lack of difference) between them
While I do appreciate that there are a lot of playstyles with multiple different iterations, like trap decks, one of the best things about Yugioh is how unique some decks play to others. Decks like Ghoti, which spend their turn setting up their combos for your turn or Generaider, which sets up protection for the plays they make off of the opponent are some of many playstyles that have yet to have an abundance of interpretations to draw from. Heck, the main reason why Eldlich is my favorite trap deck is because of the Trap Monsters, an aspect that none of the other iterations have. Just a really unique mechanic that's really fun to use
Yugioh has one playstyle
Summon a bunch of cards in one turn
Also search 80 times.
@@DragonBallsolosyourverse Most of the decks I like to play summon like 5 monsters tops in a turn. My favorite decks are the old defend the castle decks like Bujins, Dinomorphia or the new Millennium Exodia support where the entire point of the deck is to defend one big boy. Will definitely give you the searching part though, every good archetype should search at least twice per turn
Screw the meta, Rogue for life. Been playing red-eyes flare metal turbo with dark room of nightmare for 2 years now
Some People just want to watch the world burn. Litterally
A fellow red eyes burn enjoyer. Rejoice good sir.
was just talking about this topic, I love to beat dark decks as constellars gain a natural advantage vs them
I had accepted that most of my pet decks have had their time in the sun and are now peacefully resting on a farm upstate, and that learning the new decks is a worthwhile endeavour even if I chose not to play in a certain format.
Then Konami decided that Lara should get a new Wyrm friend and WE’RE SO FUCKING BACK BABY RITUAL BEAST 10TH BEST DECK IT’S 2015 ALL OVER AGAIN
Boi if you don't take "Available" off that M.E.T.A acronym 😭💰
Why what’s wrong with it
Too expensive hence the money bag
It's M.E.T.A. not M.E.T.R.A.
I mean this seems like it's mostly about how decks that were rogue in 2021 are no longer rogue now - and yeah as the game changes that's gonna happen. This isn't rogue decks dying this is just a change in which decks are rogue
Even the memento deck is unplayable and its like brand new
So what's the excuse there
@@DragonBallsolosyourverse not every deck can be good in a competitive environment. And that's ok - casual and for fun decks can be cool
Yea but you said it was a time issue
I named a new deck
So it's not a time issue?
What's the issue then? Yugioh being a broken game?
@@DragonBallsolosyourverse The reason Altergeist and BA are no longer viable rogue choices is due to time, the reason Memento and Shining Sarcophagus are bad is that they aren't good decks - just like Solfachord was never good.
The only way this is considered a problem is if you think every deck has to be at some point good
Ok but all the decks aint meta so clearly its not a time issue
Yubel
Clear
Are all new decks
Its just a balancing issue
Yugioh is play tier zero or lose
Farfa looking clean
As a blackwing main i can agree i still struggle agaisnt snake eyes or labyrinths i wonder how my brother win agaisnt them so easily with valkyrie
Also, another big issue in the TCG is that no rogue decks are safe anymore. With the way the TCG banlist works so hard to push new product you feel like your pet deck always has a target on its back even if it's not seeing a ton of success at the time. Dragon link, plants, etc all come to mind; not to mention the January 2020 banlist where rogue/tier 2 decks got obliterated along with the top 4 decks.
I think it's most likely because the general use cards since it is generic good decks usually don't get affected but less powerfull deck suffer so much because of it
@@fashilram7313 Yes. For example, Linkuriboh being banned impacted a lot of random decks more than people tend to realize.
@@matthewherlihy1106that card and cards like it need to be banned. Nothing about the attack decrease is broken it’s the fact you have an extra deck monster that’s also an extender that can receive itself
@@fashilram7313 yes
Dont forget our boi,halqifibrax being prime example of this case too
@rd9669 I wasn't discussing whether it's banworthy or not, nor do I have any interest in doing so. It's the fact that it's probably one of, if not, the best and most generic link 1 bridges we had that its banning hurt a lot rouge decks in a weird sort of way.
I’m okay with sh*tting on people who play meta.
Swordsoul mentioned on thumbnail? I'm clicking in
I usually play Rogue because I don’t want to copy verbatim what pro players do and I want to play strategies that I enjoy. Most of my decklists are ones I came up with from scratch, whether they are good or not. It’s why at my locals I am known going X1 with a Skull Servant pile deck or Icejade Sharks, or getting my first regional top with a plant deck that played no Sunavalon cards at the height of Snake Eye Fire king’s popularity. Not saying there’s anything wrong with playing meta or picking up decks because a pro player played them, meta, rogue, or otherwise, but I always found enjoyment out of making a deck myself or with a friend and seeing how far I could take it. And I usually do better with decks that way than I do with a meta strategy.
I mean when your ban list hits generically powerful cards rogue decks lose more power than the tier 1 decks. As much as we don’t like it floodgates can be an equalizer. That doesn’t mean they’re right or good for the game but they do make rogue decks more viable in the meta.
Uh, kind of? Yes, a lot of power cards get hit that hurt rogue strategies by proxy, but unless it's an archetypical floodgate, you're *rogue deck* is just a typical case of: "Oh, hey! I drew the card that says you can't play anymore!"
Or maybe I'm still salty at losing to summon limit in MD...
At that point it is more about those powerful cards (especially floodgates) winning than a specific rogue archetype, it's a bit sad imo
@@dominicott5939 don’t disagree at all especially in MD since it’s a best of one. They do give the illusion of diversity instead of making a deck great. I do just really hate watching snake eye mirrors so maybe that’s just my bias leaking out.
Except floodgates can be really degenerate in meta decks.
Let us be honest. They are dead since the trash Tear deck released. The game was unplayable since then. The hit on Fibrax just make it worse
Was one of the greatest format in modern memory
@@toad1304 Tear?
@@toad1304 could not be more wrong
@@chewdoom8415yeah tear was a format that rewarded skill and punished trash the ideal of a card game
@geiseric222 but it was the ONLY deck. If I wanted to play with no variety if you want to win through skill I'd play chess. So go ahead and learn some openings
He had to include the Triff clip
You see the definition rogue is changing because past meta decks and decks like Red Dragon Archfiend are power are being considered rogue and power creeping other rouge decks into the tier 3 category famously known as just for fun or crap decks.
The haircut/beard trim looks pretty good.
What's the reskin of Qliphort? I'm not playing true draco-
I believe the biggest reason for the power gap would be consistency, coz the Tier decks all have about 10/12 1 card starters and a further few 2 to 3 card combos to extend and on top of that they all have very good grind game... Whereas the Rogue decks mostly consist of 2 card combo eg BA, Sword Soul etc. And this is a manger factor because 1 or 2 hand traps won't stop SE from setting up a decent board with follow up but 1 imperm/vailer stops majority or Rogua decks
I think you nailed it with the power gap.
Even new rogue decks like Memento, Goblin Biker etc cannot hope to compete. It's not a case of "just play the new rogue", it's a power escalation that has made the difference untenable.
If a deck is playing 20+ handtraps and the rest are one card starters, what is a rogue deck meant to do to compete with that? You just get stopped from playing. Especially when Nib can be paired with a Veiler/Imperm very regularly due to the ratios.
You can't innovate past regularly occurring 3 interruptions or a Nib/Veiler other than stun.
I think the most surprising thing was that ash is only 7 years old. It feels like at least 9 or 10
If decks weren’t an average of 700+ dollars more average people might play meta because they can actually buy the fucking cards and don’t need a loan to get them. This needs to be the first thing that changes within the game
As a rogue player I think the only format in the last 10 years that was really frustrating was Tear format. I think right now there’s a lot of rogue strats that can win out against the meta if practiced enough! I’ve been running EvilEye! I top 4 all my locals and I’ve gotten 3 regional invites this year along with 1 top8 at Los Angeles going 9-1. I think a lot of times when the format is “solved” YGO players get really discouraged to try anything else but really it’s another opportunity!
I hate tearlament and anybody who thinks they are good for playing them like it’s hard or something.
As a Skull Servant duelist, I think we have a shot this year. Wightlord, the new Lightsworn support, Horus reprints. Totally not copium.
I like Altergeist, but I'm not going to replace it with a coomer waifu deck just because it's stronger. Konami needs to stop releasing so many powerful cards and let the back end of the game catch up.
The vaalmonica pendulums unironically help with bricking in adamancipator
When are we getting some Goku’s Balls support?? 👀
Ive been maining swordsoul in the current meta in MD not sure if they are classed as rogue rn as im pretty sure they arent meta. Funnily enough ive built other meta decks in the past but always go back to my swordsoul lol
Imagine if Farfa had a low tapered fade
I would consider myself a rogue deck player and i'm not giving up!
Nah we nouvelles chefs still cookin👨🍳‼️🍔
Need something good for my silent swordsman deck lol
I main a rogue deck, specifically Vaylantz, just because it’s a hell of a board-breaker deck that plays into Snake-Eyes habit of placing their monsters in the Spell/Trap zone
I was trying fireking snake eyes deck and someone with structure deck cyberdark tried everything to clear my board but ended up using all his resources and I was ended up 9 cards on board with 7 cards in hand on his turn.
One of the only advantages rogue deck have is that the opponent doesn't know what you're doing. I have the problem that (as a LiveTwin player) my deck has been part of a really meta deck so everybody knows what I'm doing. Yeah I'm having real trouble winning
I’ve actually been having a lot of fun building and playing a synchro/link climb mikanko deck. I really cooked the combos, but because mikanko is at least strong enough to stand on its own, I.e: Ni Ni with Arabesque plus 1-2 disruptions can actually shut down a lot of meta board states.
Oh someone who plays Ni Ni, you, sir, are a hero
Ah yes, I remember destroying my locals with my Skull Servant synchro's back in Dualist Alliance.
Goot times.
Most rogue needs draw spells, floodgates, and omnis while be unable to play a large number of hand traps without bricking this is fine and all but when the game is banning those cards while leaving hand traps untouched that's what hurts.
I will never stop playing Super Quants
Yugioh needs a Smogon-like system
DDD does okay against many things but feels like even with all it can put out, it always feels like snake eyes just has more, being able to play through most endboards.
Been able to take some game from stuff like Labyrinth and Tear at least, which always feels good.
Nice to see another DDD player. I feel it's a deck that can at least compete. One of the few rogue strategies that has true one card combos and can play through multiple negations with even a decent opener.