WHY you SHOULDN'T build a Dual Scope (even though they're amazing 😜)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
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Hello Cuiv, I am a mechanical engineer which also uses dual imaging setups like this all the time. We use large adjustable rings such as you find on a finderscoope to parallel our instruments. A main point to make in your setup is to add a pair of 1/4" aluminum bars between the top rings of your two scopes to keep them from flexing. Is easy to make and drill to fit and will totally solve most of your flexure issues. As far as making big rings, you can have a machinist cut some thick aluminum tubing into slices and add the threaded holes. Alignment will be very fast and repeatable.
Thanks for the tip! I really wish I can find a machinist in Japan ready to do that stuff... Linking the rings at the top makes a lot of sense! Thank you!
If you talk with a machinist about your project you could probably come up with a better solution and a possible product. Just thinking. I enjoyed the video and how to help.
I was going to suggest something similar. You just need access to a drill press, vice for the press, a tap and set screws.
I agree! I just have no idea how to find a machinist in Japan! :p
Most of my rigs are at least dual mostly more to maximise use of all the mounts I have. They take a little longer to build and set up but well worth the effort for taking multiple images of the same target at different focal ratios and filters, maximises the time of availabe clear skies
Nice! Thanks for the input!
Hi Cuiv.
When will be the time of the Godziscope (quad F4 newt on quad mono cam coupled each with their LRGB filters)? ;)
I hope never! I have enough complexity with dual scope :)
Cuiv,
A request from a loyal viewer: When you put a banner up on the screen, please read it five times before removing it. You know what it says but I don’t. It takes time for me to notice a new banner, focus on it, read it and begin to understand the message. Most of your banners are on screen so briefly that finding and focusing are the only operations I can execute! That leaves actually reading your message in the great observatory in the sky.
I do believe that I might not be the only viewer who is constantly stopping the video, backing up, finding the banner (sometimes a challenge in and of itself), stopping the video, reading the message in the banner and continuing. A bit more time to acquire and digest the information you have taken the time to prepare for me would be greatly appreciated 🧐.
Keep the aspidistra flying!
Many thanks,
Paul
A HUGE annoyance for me!
Thanks for the advice! I typically leave them on 5s to 10s (default is 5 seconds), which I thought gives people enough time to pause... it's a difficult one because the longer I keep them on the more the talking Cuiv has gone to a different topic. I'll keep that in mind when editing going forward!
I have enough frustration with trying to get everything right with one scope. I can only imagine what you must have been feeling trying to get this kind of set up working the way you wanted. I won't be trying a duel scope set up anytime soon ! LOL...
And looking at your sky on the balcony with all those clouds in the background, well, I have had one clear night over the last month and that was with a full moon. (Not normal here for June).. I think with my recent interest and all the money I have spent this year I should have known that it would bring an incredibly cloudy and rainy summer ! Here's hoping the fall months ahead are more cooperative and I can actually use my new equipment....haha... Cheers and all the best from Utah ;-)
I'm a precision mechanic from Germany and am now tempted as hell to build a beautiful setup like this for my home observatory lol
Hahaha! My advice would be: don't do it! It's more trouble than it's worth :p
working on a dual setup too.. far from ideal as I'm using ASIAIR and there is no way to really do it.. you can't have 2 ASIAIRS talking to each other to sync up exposures with dithering.
So I'm using one main ASIAIR, it's doing all the guiding, dithering, etc.. 5 min exposures, dithering every 2 shots. - and the piggyback is only controlling a camera+filterwheel and is doing 1 minute exposures.. in theory, that means that 1 out of 10 shots of the piggyback is blurred due to the dithering.. still giving me an 80-90% retention rate of the pics coming from the piggy back.
I'm using it with 2x 135mm Samyangs/Rokinons. Wide enough to not make the aiming too big of a deal.. and wide enough / light enough to not make the flexing too much of a big deal, especially with the shorter exposures on the piggyback.
or... well.. this is all the theory. Still need to be put in practise. I'll be running a test tonight I reckon
Yep two ASIAirs will cause lots of ditehring issues... well, good luck!
Another interesting video, Cuiv.... I caught the ex-wife comment; most of us have one. Guess that's part of figuring out life when you start without enough experience.
Meanwhile... I'm not sure what these guys do with two and three RASAs on big mounts shooting mono.
Yep, agree on the ex part, it is what it is... The guys with three RASAs are monsters haha
Definitely won't try setting up a dual barrel Frankenscope! Currently only have one mount (HEQ5 Pro) which can handle my single 8" Newtonian.
Yep! The scope is now two single scope rigs because I needed to remove the mirror of one but couldn't without removing the other scope and I didn't want to realign everything :)
I wonder if flexture can be reduced by joining them with a second plate on top. Alignment would be harder though. This is probably easier with refractors as cone error will be less.
Yes, very likely!
I think you are really building a binocular. As mentioned below you should be tying the telescopes together as a single unit. Maybe you could put tube rings on both scopes that are connected together. You could add plates above and below as well to further stiffen the structure. Might be difficult to align the optical axis of the OTAs.
In the end I needed to remove the mirror of one, but I couldn't because of the second scope blocking the screw, so now I have the scopes on two different rigs :D
All I do is shoot dual with filter wheel on one and quad on the other...ADM dual bar and alignment bracket...even have rotators on both
That sounds amazing!
Guide with the long exposure telescope... the short exposure telescope will be happy! 😃
Good point! Simply always have the guiding telescope do the long exposures... that's genius! Seriously though why didn't I think of that?!
Why did you do the alignment at night? You could have done it daytime on a distant object.
It wasn't possible from my rooftop - slewing to far away objects made one of the telescopes point at the balcony wall...
Baader Stronghold is such a solution
My double rig is made of 2 x (Evoguide50 + QHY183c), filter drawers on both, sitting on a losmandy plate, with the guide scope in between both Evoguides. At first I used the Skywatcher guidescope base to adjust alt-az in the second scope, but It gave funky stars, So I put the slave evoguide on its original collimatable rings, That have made adjustment easier, and now both scopes aim almost exactly to the same point. The nice thing with double setups is you capture much more data (I can't image all night long), but taming the whole thing is a hassle (verify aim, 2xfocusing,...ugh). Sometimes it has taken me 1-1.5hrs until everything is ready to start taking pictures, although once everything is adjusted it holds quite well for several sessions. All in all I'm liking it, but it's def a pain in the behind, lol. Stars are almost but not perfect in one of the scopes (there must be some flexure). That idea of linking them with a bar could work. I''ll try and let you know. Clear skies!.
Not only the Frankenscope has this aligning issue, but every Newtonian too, called Cone error. It happens After the Meridian Flip. After the flip the defraction Spikes will not fit anymore. So a decent solution is highly appreciated to have a very precise possibility of adjustment.
Note that when attaching more than one scope to a single mount, there's no hard requirement that they both image the same target. If you mount is reasonably rigid and properly aligned/guided, it is "tracking" the entire sky accurately.
This means that in addition to dual-barrel frankenscopes as shown here, it's also possible to mount a "piggyback" camera/scope (usually a substantially lighter and wider-field one) to your main telescope and point it at an entirely different target for the night. Image a deep-field target with your big newtonian/refractor, and put a ball mount or something with a mirrorless camera and a wide-angle (or short telephoto) lens pointing somewhere else and you can get double the value out of setting up and running your mount for the night!
When I win the lottery. I'm getting a Software Bisque and 3 RASAs so I can do single night narrowbands. One day...
As you mentioned, a 200/800 or 250/1000 Newtonian is a better choice. A single 8" gathers almost as much light as dual 6" and a 10" gathers 30% more. Filter wheel allows you to gather 2 or more channels in a repeating sequence so getting 2 different things at once is hardly anything unique to a dual setup.
I think your next assignment is to do the same thing, taking into account suggestions from your subscribers, with two 12" inch Newtonians... The push-pull screws are a good idea for aligning the views! 💡👍
Flexure is overblown and frankly shouldn’t be mentioned as much. With the wide view cameras it doesnt effect it to the way it gets mentioned. Also I use a similar setup just smaller, and if you can guide from the mount like iOptron’s I’d go that route.
I would try joining the two scopes together, at the bottom and top of each OTA. For this I would make (3D Print) two saddles for each scope. The saddles would profile around each OTA, and would join to one another. I would use a ratchet strap to hold the scopes together in their respective saddles. It would probably still be tricky to align them, but flexure would be much more controlled. You could use engineers feeler gauges to shim between the saddles to help with the alignment. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be cheap and fun to try..
Many useful learning experiences here, even for those rigging only a single scope for AP. Hey, how about aligning the diffraction spikes between the two spiders? 🕷
Hey Cuiv, is it possible for you to have a second review on the founder Optics draco 62 now that is in his mass production stage ? Thanks 😊
I would comment you should do the same exposure time on both scopes if you haven’t to see the flexure.5 min vs 60s can show more guiding errors Also how did you dither like that. What did you put in the master sequence vs the slave?
Thanks for the advice! You need to do a multiple of the exposure time (or the same one), and have the guiding telescope be responsible for the longer exposure (which is what I'll do from now on!). Concerning the dithering, my first video about the dual scope explains that!
Thanks I’ll take a look When I get the c series thinking the going 2 for one I must have missed what you put in the synchronized dithering number for each scope. So I can put 1 and set for 120s and 2 and set for 60s.
This does seem more an experiment than practical. Seems just putting the second scope on its own mount makes more sense, and running both scopes independently but on the same nights. Especially if you have multiple mounts gathering dust. :)
Interesting video Cuiv. alignment is always going to be an issue with a set up like you have. However, as someone else has already said I'm sure a qualified machinist or someone with similar engineering skills would be able to help. Perhaps if you look outside the astro community you may find someone with the skills to help you find a solution, perhaps the model engineering community for example, some of those guys are awesome in what they can fabricate.
I would love to see if something like this could be used to do stereoscopic imaging similar to binoviewers or binoscopes.
Any machine shop can drill and tap those holes you mentioned. The rubber tipped screws are easily found in home stores or online.
The Baader stronghold device is more stable, as its screws are not sping-loaded but push and pull on a metal block
Great video Cuiv! I think your idea should work. In order to secure the settings a locking device would be needed. A grub screw would be enough.
I hope someone makes this and sells it :)
Dammit Cuiv, if you had waited, I was all set to build the saddle for you, very much as you describe! 😂
Phil, you're amazing - I'd still definitely want you to build the saddle anyway, since this method is still quite painful and anytime I touch my scopes I will need to use it :p
i want to do this... but for solar. flexure hopefully wont be an issue due to shorter exposure times.
60s and 5m together. Interesting combination for dithering...
Multiples of one another! One is synchronized dithering every 5 frames, the other one every frame, works great :)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek ah, I see you did a video on synchronized dithering 4 years ago. Cool project!
I did this years ago with two 80 mm refractors using a home adjustment platform for one telescope. Basically a couple of aluminum plates, with a clamp on the top plate. One screw was used to fix the scope tip(with stabilizing bolts once in the correct position), and then slotted bolt holes allowed for changing the X-axis of the scope. It worked, but it takes some time, even with a relatively straightforward adjustment mechanism. But I feel your pain, it's a lot of work to fabricate yourself and minimize flexure. The pixel scale you're shooting at makes a big difference too.
Nice work on those fracs - agree that Newts make this far more complex haha
👍👍
ADM would be happy to see what you think! 😊
Maybe they'll stumble on the video :)
@@CuivTheLazyGeek 😂
I have the 150 f4 and I've often wondered 🤔....but I have a 250 f4 and a quadband filter so I'll save the cost of another scope and camera and all the headache thanks, this hobby is frustrating enough !!!!!
Love what you do Cuiv the lazy crazy geek !??
Stay lazy! lol
Don't use a rotator or you have a new challenge. LoL
Yeah I've decided a long time ago I don't need rotators :p
Hi Cuiv, I was hoping you might mention the odd spike in bigger stars on the CarbonStar.
Are those spikes still there? Great video; the flex issue is making me think.
Still there, I'm suspecting the coma corrector...
Once I built a triple refractor setup. It was nice, but a nightmare. I ended in choosing a simple but much larger telescope. The total integration time is the same but 3 times less problems. The only issue is the wearher : sudain clouds may prevent capturing with one of the filter, I meannwhen you already have the R and G but clouds arrives, you can’t get the R…
Yes exactly - being able to capture all at once is really nice to be honest...!
Thanks!
Thank you for your support!!
This was fun and interesting adventure Cuiv! You just showed how you can be innovative and creative in this hobby regardless of the outcome. I appreciate you sharing this experience as we all can learn from it. Clear skies!
Thanks so much Dave~!
Thanks for the interesting and informative video on the Frankenscope. Were you able to get rid of the odd diffraction spike in the Apertura scope? If you did I must have spaced it out.
Not yet! I suspect the coma corrector rather than the main scope
Hi great Yannick, for my part I am working on a “twin refractors” project!! The idea was already in motion when you posted your previous video, at the beginning of May I think :-)
I was finally able to check that my two refractors (mount, camera, etc.) could work at the same time, on my PC (without everything crashing!). I found a plate on sale that will allow me to put the two refractors side by side: the first (TS130) for mono luminance (resolution of 0.89) and the second (TS102) for color... Since the field of the TS102 will be much wider, I should be able to insert the mono image into it (during mixing, in PS) to obtain a "mono + color" image in one go (during the rare clear nights that we have in the Paris region)...
I thought about this problem of slight shift of the refractors, plus the fact that the cameras at the back may not be exactly aligned (they do not screw exactly the same into the focuser)...
We double Murphy's law!! :-))) At worst, I would have tried. At best, I'll be happy to get a few decent images (I don't take as good quality as you) when the clouds want to disappear for a few hours!! ;-)
That's the spirit! I'm rooting for you and your setup, but you're right, at worst it will have been a fun try!
From Cuiv the lazy geek to Cuiv the mechanic😂
Hahaha I wish I had a tiny bit of skill as a mechanic!
I sometimes use a dual setup on my Eq6r pro. I custom-made a dovetail, which on one side bears a Vixen/losmandy jaw,and on the other side, fitted with a special adapter onto which my az/eq5 secondary removal head is screwed. Once tightened, the whole assembly is snug. The secondary head uses the default azimuth bolds,whereas the height of the head has to be adjusted prior to mounting the scopes. So, the whole assembly has full perpendicular adjustments for the secondary scope( usually the lighter one). I am a civil engineer and a mech hobbyist. All machining done from my balcony. I used standard taping tools (metric thread).
Max focal length for both scopes 1000mm and allowable exposure lengths under winds of up to 4m/s is 180 sec.
I don't recommend tilting the secondary scope, but however my system does it. Astro imaging is expensive; So I prefer using my hands, and save for more important needs.
@CuivTheLazyGeek But you've got other skills Man! Enlightening those who are still stuck in a world of dark frames with trails . 😉
I can see the appeal of a dual set up but after all the nightmares you've been through trying to line it up I think I'll stick with the 10" Newtonian lol
great video as always clear skies!!!
Probably a good choice :)
Interesting.
Thanks!
We have the ADM setup at our club’s observatory. We have a 14” Edge HD on an Astro Physics AP1200. The ADM setup works perfectly. Allows us to frame both scopes as needed. Admire your persistence.
Been watching your videos for two years now, today was the first time you’ve been interrupted by a commercial, wow.
Ouch, sorry about that!! Was it mid-sentence or something??
Excellent video Cuiv. I love my dual scope setup. My reason for building it is pretty much as you stated in that I can capture data from different filters at the same time or use the same filter and collect twice as much data per night etc. Having said that, I built mine using refractors, I'm not sure I would want to build one using newtonians as I like the simplicity that refractors provide as they just work without needing to be tweaked and collimated etc.
I agree Pete, especially in the context of a dual scope setup, refractor's simplicity really helps! Thanks for the feedback!
Thank you very much for sharing your ideas. Take care and clear skies!
Clear skies! Thank you!
I would try upping the spring size in that adjustable dovetail mount to a heavier spring.
Great video, any luck on the star issues on the carbon star? I have one in my cart but won't buy it until the star issues is resolved
Not yet! I suspect the coma corrector rather than the main scope!
I feel your pain😆. I just made a setup of 3x rokinon 135mm lens with 3x qhy294m cameras, with front mounted Antlia 2.5 SHO filters to pass the light before it speeds up to f2.8 in the lens. All on a am5 mount guiding at .4 rms.....np. First light was last night and it was all great except APT.
I recommend make the whole system as light weight as possible.
Use small scopes (too late for you)
Use adjustable guiding scope rings to point the scopes perfectly (super large rings for you)
Use the same cameras and scopes for your multiple rig (too late for you)
It would be helpful if you made a video on how to synchronize multiple cameras, with dithering, on NINA. I use ATP but it's been a little pain in the butt.
Thanks for sharing and don't give up.
What’s the sticking point in APT with multiple cameras ?
@@boaty1968APT doesn’t work on my mini pc u59 which might not be APT fault but when the exposures are complete, two download fine within 5 seconds but the third takes one minute and it’s blank/black.
APT does work with my Microsoft surface pro 4 good enough. Setting it up as one or two click run is tedious. First setup a profile for each camera, then setup dithering as client, client, server. Then make three icons renamed, in properties, space, 1,2,3.
And thats where is seems to falter. It works once, then not.
So I simply click the APT icon three times to open three instances of APT and setup every camera individually every time, basically the long way but it appears to work that way.
Maybe I’m doing something wrong in APT or there’s a glitch but so far, it’s a little pain. I’d prefer the one app instance automatically detect my three cameras and one mount and configure its self. That’s it.
I also bought that bar, to use with rokinon 135mm in combination with other wide field lenses and cameras etc. Much more forgiving.
Hahaha that's a cool setup for sure! How large are the filters you bought? My initial dual scope video went into the dithering with NINA already! :)
I use this solution for my Dual Esprit 100 setting. JTD Dual Rig Telescope Alignment Saddle. This part works fantastic and is super quick to adjust.
Ooooh that one is cheaper than the ADM Accessories one and looks great!! I'll have to seriously look into it!