I mean there are lot of peoples who can't read or pay me to do job that bascially requires 5 minutes of reading on google then following basic steps and after they tell me im good at fixing stuff. It's just i don't know even what to say about this.
@@thechosenone729 I know right. There's a huge portion of them in real life. There's an online world of pros and real world of people asking me so stupid questions. And I do believe they just don't like to learn and all
@@cortexauth4094 True, i don't know how to explain it but it's like you said. More often this happen somebody call me and ask me if i can help him with a problem i sit down and he show me something like this "Error code : A247A01" i just litteraly pass this into google, because there is no way you can know what that does mean or read the file as Luke said. You find out error read it and just follow the steps. It's not like im better in anything then them because they know how to read for sure and i bet even guy with 80IQ can follow steps in many of these or do required googling and keep going on. It's like they are too lazy to do that, lazy to read ? I guess but if this is a truth then our society is kinda f.... if i can say.
Lollieisenbrot In general I can’t stand how some people are proud of their ignorance in anything. There are many, many fields that I don’t have a clue about, but I am always open to learning something, or at least respect that knowledge if it does not interest me. The worst part is that those people are being used by others -it has always been, but specially nowadays- and the only reason is because it is easier to drive the hate of a person over something the less he or she knows about it.
@@keepercool98 That is epidemic in my area, and how most of the family that I don't have is. At some point, when it gets to some level of extremity, stupidity has to be considered evil, and a lot of people are way past that point. It's incredible how everything they do makes the world worse, because they refuse to know what the fuck they're doing before doing it.
@Anastasia Richter gentoo is just arch without precompiled binaries change my mind just do lfs if you want to compile and shit and learn about linux if you're a brainlet like me then just stick with arch gentoo is the shitty middle ground (then again what do i know)
Anastasia Richter Can’t you manually configure the kernel in Arch? wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Kernel/Arch_Build_System As for your second point, I made the mistake of lumping Artix, Void, and various other Arch based distros together
Haha this is so true. I remember my college mates are like I use arch btw and I got seriously intimidated. It took me 7 fucking years of procrastinating it to finally install it only to find that you just need to read basic instructions
That's like nails on a chalk board to me. I don't get why people brag about not using the command-line. I use windows at work and, in some roles, I have to use PowerShell extensively. On linux, I use the terminal quite extensively.
I used to be one of them... Then I stopped putting stupid questions onto forums and started reading wiki's and searching out info instead of asking for it to be easily presented to me. I've learned tons and now I share this view. Its like they are arrogant about their ignorance and then expect someone to swoop in and fix their mistake
@JAYADEVAN RAGHAVAN For things that aren't in documentation and are genuine errors that needs fixing (not just something stupid like you forgot to install a package).
@JAYADEVAN RAGHAVAN Yeah, most people only tell you to RTFM if the documentation is sufficient, if you ask a legitimate question that's not covered by documentation, you'll get help.
I remember finding a whole bunch of documentation for Windows 98 that was pre-installed in the Windows directory. Literally, there were around 10 text files that explained pretty much everything about the OS. But, the only way you could find them is by going to the Windows directory, clicking OK to that scary "DO NOT PROCEED UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, THESE ARE CRITICAL SYSTEM FILES" warning, and find the documentation amongst the 20,000 other files in that directory.
Or your technology is so badly designed that you have to use documentation as a crutch and too arrogant to admit that you suck at designing stuff that makes it easy for other people. The best technologies are those which are self-documenting.
@@randomuser5237 self documenting technologies are an excuse to not properly document your work. the most useful part of documentation isn't for the people who know nothing about tech as they don't read it anyways, it's for you to understand wtf you did in the future. anyone who actually works on these technologies understand the dangers of undocumented (aka self documented) code. this take reads like a non programmer's take.
@@nnaaaaaa Your point has nothing to do with the video or your original comment which were for novice users. I have designed real-world software for nontechnical users unlike people in this comment thread and the channel owner. Good luck getting any user for a reasonably complicated tool by handing them a 500 page manual and telling them to RTFM and learn about obscure flags and options. And BTW nontechnical people doesn't mean they are ignorant fools, it means they have real jobs and don't have the time to read through the manual in order to perform a few basic tasks. The software should be intuitive enough to guide them through that process and "intelligent" enough to pick a set of sensible defaults which works for most users.
@@randomuser5237 you're not wrong about any of that, at all. my comment is more of a musing on how it feels to make something that focuses on technical excellence in the open source ecosystem. eventually it feels like all that effort was wasted on users that feel like they are entitled to having it but don't give back in any meaningful way. free software is great, free software users less so.
Learning Linux takes time man. I've spent uncountable hours learning this stuff still I think I have a long way to go. It's so damn vast that if you study things one day, a week from now you won't even remember it. It takes humility and a lot of patience to go back to the documentation and re read it. All for the love of Linux and it's all worth it.
I think it's important to keep the mindset that you're not dumb because you don't know something, you're smart because you understand you don't know something and want to learn.
"Identify with ignorance" is it. It is the premier human predicament. This is why the primary spiritual path is to recognize self; to release the false senses of self.
One problem novices might have is that even the most user friendly documentation can seem intimidating just because it's documentation. I certainly had this problem for the longest time. I preferred to look for youtube tutorials or answers on forums than to check the man page. I think I had a massive shift when I started work in embedded software development. I learned to love the 1000-page pdfs that explain everything about the processor you're working with, and man now doesn't look scary at all.
Well Dunning-Krueger is supposed to be "Arrogance of the Mid-wit." I don't talk about Dunning-Krueger because it's a fake effect in the literature (statistical noise), so ironically enough the only true example of Dunning-Krueger is the people who blame others of it.
@@LukeSmithxyz I'm not that well read in psychology but I thought that Dunning-Kruger was quite established in the field. Could you point me to an article disputing the effect? (asking out of genuine interest btw)
I think most of your audience don't tell you often enough how inspiring and precious you are to people who genuinely want to technically and coherently grow in their life.
Just wanted to drop this here: About the Gentoo community, they are literally the nicest people I've ever seen, you will never ever get even laughed at for asking dumb questions even on #gentoo at freenode, such nice and helpful people.
there's a difference between asking a question and asking for help I think generally people want others to ask questions that invites good discussion. like in a way that showcase everyone's expertise that compliments their ego some of the noob question is just sometimes people are just don't read, laziness. basic. everyone has that. not everyone has to be publicly criticized for such mistakes. time, more people are just had the time in that they put in those technologies so the forum is diverse with any amount of experience. help, no one else to talk to. they're just getting started, there's no clear communities. everybody seems to be already ahead of them.
People tend to consider their own ignorance as a privilege. This is why you need to print „Caution HOT Beverage“ onto a cup of coffee to avoid being sued.
I just remembered you called me out once for not testing the contents of a pull request to LARBS in an actual LARBS setup so it broke some things. I'm wounded for life and I'll never use free software again!!
People don't want to try hard. I don't know why. So many stimulus and I think they want a kind of instanthanic answer. No space for interpretations, focus and everithing that come with these things. I hope you don't give up to share your knowledge and your point of view, your kind of elegant solutions. Thanks! Ayr, from Brazil south!
Hey, I'm still kinda of newbie (in knowledge, 'cause I've known Linux since I was a kid) and what is helping me is an online course made by Linux Foundation on Edx for *free* (you only pay if you want a certificate). It goes from very basic to scripting, network operations and security. I'm not done with it, but highly recommend for everyone who don't want to be noob in linux. I still like to joke about it :P
Here is the link, if anyone is interested: courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:LinuxFoundationX+LFS101x+1T2020/course/ They let you download the videos AND the subtitles
I miss the Linux club in elementary school. We'd never Google shit and always just read docs. That went on for a couple of years until my friends moved away or became Windows elitists because muh gaemz.
This video is pretty funny cause I was just talking about this exact concept last night in regards with the emailwiz and mutt wizard script. Both have not worked for me but it would be asinine of me to blame or get mad at Luke/ others whove contributed to these scripts when there are error messages. Ive been a math tutor at the community college level for around five years now and its really insane to see this sort of stuff on the daily even outside of technology where you've literally set them up for success and even have troubleshooting stuff yet be blamed for the other persons incompetency to LOOK for around 5 seconds at the page and PONDER for around 10 seconds to comprehend whats on their to solve your problems. Id like to thank you Luke (and others in the comment sections) personally for your scripts because even though they were not a solution for me, theyve given me the joy and pain of learning about the mystic world of email servers. Probably have wasted a few weeks of my time looking stuff up but at least my foots in the door and pointed in some general direction because of these scripts.
"I do things the simple way." "Well yes you do, but because you do so, you run into errors and take 10x the time for installing a programm from official repositories."
Well, its like saying, "why do you need to go to college, if you have documentation of the internet?". Some people aren't capable of learning that way. Yes, you may call them stupid, but it is actually more arrogant of people to dismiss them, just because they are inferior to them
I'll never forget when I asked a dumb question on the arch reddit and someone dabbed on me bc the answer was like a 3 second search on the wiki. Honestly made me lol at my self and spend a lot more time focusing on trying to figure out issues myself before I go solicit help from others.
As you say, and I had that problem too... there are many people who don't understand the philosophy of ArchLinux, everything is about reading the ArchWiki but they go to some ArchLinux group for support and they ask how to install ArchLinux and they don't know even the basics commands lines. Then they say that ArchLinux community is not friendly and obviously is not true. ArchLinux is about taking your time of reading, comprehension and practice. That's the reason ArchLinux has no graphical installer. So the rules of ArchLinux forum and other groups are when you really have a problem that is not documented on the ArchWiki or when you write a correct question with all the details as possible. And this is the same with other distros or software. Many times I said "The error is the solution" and then they get mad with me... But literally many times you have the solution to your problem on the error message.
I think you shouldn`t be focusing so much on people like them. People like them usually try to blame other stuff for their own incompetence and arrogance. Personally, I find your videos quite fucking good and you def made me a better linux user. So keep up the good work !
What you're talking about is identity politics at it's core: "I identify with this oppression that holds me down." (Even if that oppression is my own doing) What's sad is that everyone's life is better when they identify with: "this is the oppression I kicked in the face!"
@Max Raider whilst correct, Teddy Roosevelt was a pretty horrific human being. He was still very driven and didn't let people dictate what his life was.
"Most people aren't really bullying" This man reversed engineered the positive impact of making fun of people, it'll make it stick easier and these people probably would be your friend
I feel what you're saying Luke. Imagine such behaviors being exhibited in a workplace by people you actually know and see in the office. Put some politics into the mix as well. And this describes my current struggle and I might have to change job after just over a year at a supposedly top 10 IT company.
You have described why people don't used linux in this video. People who are not expert in computing expect things to just work, they do not want to read read me files, look on forums or wiki to make things functional. Futhermore the forums, wiki and read me file expect that the user understand basic stuff. A new person to linux who had learn in kindergarten that cat is a four leg animal that meows is going to have to learn what that means in linux to understand the wiki, forums and read me file they read. To top things off linux keeps changing and the forums, read me files and wiki many times does not change as well, hence giving invalid instructions which won't work which lead to frustration. So people who are reading will be seen as elitist by people who can't get things to work without reading a manual of some sort. Put it this way if you buy a hard drive you plug it in a pc you expect files to easily be copied and paste. However if the hard drive formatted by linux for a linux system when purchased, you will need to understand file permission and user permission as when you get a permission denied error you need to know how to deal with it and not just return the drive and giving a bad customers review just because the user don't understand and don't want to learn user permission etc.
What a time we live in. Being braindead is not a problem anymore, it is a feature that a lot of people are proud of it!..... What an opppresing person who try to make me learn something new that I don't know.
This is "Are you just TOO SMART to learn anything" v2. It's the same thing over and over and it is not only happening on tech stuff. People just don't want to "waste" their time reading and learning. They want the easy way out and that's why we see half-assery almost everywhere. It's refreshing to see a youtuber saying things like that even if it offends some of his subs. Well done man.
The reason people expect it to be different than say plumbing, is that plumbing is a job, and they expect computers to "just work". This is taken to the absolute extreme, hence boomers who can't even operate a DVD player.
Im an absolute linux noob and i started with gentoo. And the gentoo forums are very helpful even for the most basic of problems. They just appreciate more people joining gentoo. Honestly the most kind and helpful people
I installed Arch as a learning experience and needless to say the extensive documentation taught me a lot. Most operating systems I had installed up until that point did everything for you so I didn't get to see everything that went on behind the scenes. People shouldn't be intimidated by vocab/concepts they've never seen before, they should just look it up, read about it, and attempt to apply it.
i'm a noob linux user, i had to install ubuntu because the school and after 6 months of using it, i just thought i'd start reading the documentation. I have solved problems that took me 24 hours in 2 minutes just to read the documentation. I spent all my life getting used to windows where you only need 2 clicks and that's it. I would like to keep learning and take that mentality away, in the holidays I will try to install Arch. Thanks Luke, your videos help me to improve.
I think it's more of a bigger problem. These novices come from platforms like Windows and Macos where things are pretty user friendly and most software and actions don't need instructions. Linux on the other hand usually requires you to fundamentally change how you do things. Linux gives you so much with terminology and commands that usually aren't done on Windows or Mac. I messages from Linux TH-camrs about researching and reading documentation needs to be a more uniformed mantra to peeps. It's not only understanding a new platforms but really fundamentally changing their ways they interact with a computer.
There is a huge learning curve for a lot of tech. And noobs who don't have a repository of knowledge from experience encounter some issue they might feel are too big to get over. Some thing might be easy when you have that knowledge but if you haven't spent hundreds of hours learning and figuring stuff out you might have no clue what to do. In tech support you can tell someone "Send me a screenshot of your network interfaces in the control panel" and they won't know wtf you are talking about, or even how to take a screenshot on their OS. And there is no handbook out there that explains how your computer and OS works anymore. In the 80s/90's before the internet was wide spread you would get a 300 page book telling you how to use your computer with your computer and you would have to read it and learn to use the computer. We don't have those anymore. Are Arch wiki is like a quick summary or how certain packages work and issues people have had, it is not a comprehensive explanation and demonstration of how that software works. Man pages are also horrible because I ain't got time to read 12571 lines to learn to how to use MPV. Yes, the man page for mpv is 12571 lines. No human should have to spend thousands of hours of their life learning technology that saves minutes. Modern computers are unironically the reason the economy is complete shit. People spend thousands of hours writing software or fixing bugs in software which can be fixed by using another already existing program or restarting the program that hanging and spent that time doing something more productive. If you write software of any kind that is redundant because some software already does what your writing you are wasting your time unless it is for fun/learning purposes.
This is why linux will never have mass adoption. people often complain about their linux distros not having the best and most popular software on them, you dont because the users just arent there. Now to get more users you'll have to match or exceed what they're used to. On windows or Mac you can just call up support or do a quick google search and there will be a step by step instructions (with pictures ) on how to solve your issue most of the time your problem is solved. On linux there's no support line you can call, when you do google something its just tons and tons of terminal commands and most of the time you these terminal commands are user specific with custom parameters, so you cant even copy paste the commands. Then when that doesn't work you go on the forums to get some help where you have someone screaming at you to read the documentation. Most people dont want to do that, they dont want to read a ton of documentation because you dont have to do that on other OSes and with that people are sick of linux, until this has been fixed linux will be doomed to a sub 2% marketshare
Arch linux (and its installation process) is not for elite, advanced users, etc. It is just, for people who know how to read (wiki / manuals / apps messages / etc). 😕 For eg. installation is just few steps and done. If somebody can't do it then manjaro / mint / pop_os are just fine choices. Code optimization is one of the most important things to do for developers. I don't understand the way Karens and Kevins reasoning... 🤦
Your can thank winshit for this mentality. People have NO idea what goes over the hood but winshit (in a way advertises) gives people the belief that they are tech savvy, when they are not. Using a dumb complicated software/application like Adobe stuff doesn't mean they are knowledgeable at basic computer software technology. (at least Apple goes down the route of using pc an appliance)
The problem is not the normie who wants to be catered. It's canonical who promise them a non-technical Linux experience and baby sits them. Also people should not recommend ubuntu to users who want to LEARN Linux. It's same as windows at this point, it reinstall snaps even if you uninstall it yourself through apt. Its the least customisable distro right now.
its just a kernel with a GUI. i personally can't stand compiling all day, I have enough problems being stressed out from having to re-install and re-optimize everything on regular OS's. They all think they are better than you because they use Linux when in reality Windows and Apple support the best engineering applications like adobe, cubase, logic, etc but have the nerve to say "YOU CAN DO IT ALL WITH GIMP DUDE!" I liked Linux but I did not grow up with it and the people i worked with on it treated me weird. I ended up helping a lot of ppl in those classes that were like a decade older than me when I went in at around 25
>copy pastes error message into StackOverflow question with no context >gets snarky replies waaaaaaaaaaah i'm getting bullied. StackOverflow is so toxic
Yeah, they have no context and it makes sense they get pissed off (copy the code referenced by the error and explain your problem i.e. what you're trying to do) (Yes, I know this comment is a joke, this is just some TL;DR help for novices)
OG ubuntu users are so fucking toxic, they are hurting my feelings on reddit. The arch and manjaro forums are varm and cozy tho for newbs like me having gpg key and pulseaudio issues.
There is drama in the community, no matter what distribution they use. I get trolled all the time. It isn't all the novices who do this, just a select few. And it's not all the advanced people who create drama either, most of them are very giving and patient with the community. I and many others appreciate your contributions.
Allow me, a Linux Noob to thank everyone who has took time out of their day to help me or another new user accomplish something which we may have struggled with. Assuring you this, I will read man pages, scanned through searches and not found a solution myself. What you have taught me - will be something I'll fondly call upon if I encounter a user in my same situation. How there's hate toward this community is beyond me, found nothing but willing, skilled people who proudly represent the operating system.
This is the equivalent of calling a driver uneducated because they don't what to be the ones repairing their cars. If your software requires knowledge to operate it means you haven't put enough thought on its design. It's not the same knowing a lot about technology than designing good technology, the same as it's not the same repairing cars than designing them. Or being a skilled developer versus a dude on the Arch forums who knows how to run commands on a terminal.
3:45 I don't think plumbing is a good analogy because if you mess up as a plumber, that's very obvious. But if someone comfortably uses Ubuntu for years then it might not be obvious why Arch is better. (then again, I've never known anybody who actually used Ubuntu comfortably for years, it inevitably breaks... Maybe that's another reason why distrohopping is popular)
Luke's story reminded me of a call I had when I was lv1. Guy calls in for an issue with a spreadsheet, he explains what he's trying to do and what happens when he does. As I have no clue what could be happening I remote on his PC and ask him to show me. When he does his thing I can see an error popup flash on his screen. I ask him about it and he says he doesn't know what it says and just closed it... I make him redo his procedure and not close the message, turns out there was one option he needed to tick... Users you hear most from are usually those that can't be bothered to think for themselves or don't care that something is happening that maybe should not be happening.
Whenever I first switched to Linux I had a lot of questions, and I would usually just look it up and there was just some documentation about the exact thing I was trying to do. I can't comprehend people not knowing how to do that. I also don't comprehend people who don't listen when forum users call them stupid. When that would happen to me I would sit there and try to figure out why they were calling me stupid, and then fixing my errors to not make the mistake in the future. Which is what you would call "learning", a seemingly foreign concept to the people described in this video.
The fact that not everyone does it this way is upsetting. I genuinely believe that short form content has made the ignorance issue more apparent. I'm noticing that a lot of people just straight up refuse to read anything in the terminal because "I shouldn't have to, that's the right command". I have a friend who refuses the use Linux because he thinks it's elitist and that Linux users think they're better than everyone. We aren't better than anyone, we're just willing to learn
Don't do anything for people they can do themselves, people always learn better if they have to fix what they broke themselves. Also the documentation (for arch)is so good you can just tell you to RTFM.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 79 | คู่เอก "ก้องชัย vs อาเมียร์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/WfPSA1A0NHc/mqdefault.jpg)
"The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn." Alvin Toffler
There's a similar saying: A person who won’t read has no advantage over one who can’t read.
I mean there are lot of peoples who can't read or pay me to do job that bascially requires 5 minutes of reading on google then following basic steps and after they tell me im good at fixing stuff. It's just i don't know even what to say about this.
@@thechosenone729 I know right. There's a huge portion of them in real life. There's an online world of pros and real world of people asking me so stupid questions. And I do believe they just don't like to learn and all
@@cortexauth4094 True, i don't know how to explain it but it's like you said. More often this happen somebody call me and ask me if i can help him with a problem i sit down and he show me something like this "Error code : A247A01" i just litteraly pass this into google, because there is no way you can know what that does mean or read the file as Luke said. You find out error read it and just follow the steps. It's not like im better in anything then them because they know how to read for sure and i bet even guy with 80IQ can follow steps in many of these or do required googling and keep going on. It's like they are too lazy to do that, lazy to read ? I guess but if this is a truth then our society is kinda f.... if i can say.
Reading is gay lol
Lowkey flexing his huge symmetrical tree farm in minecraft rtx
🤣🤣🤣🤣♥️🤣🤣🤣🤣♥️♥️♥️♥️
Lol nice comment
LoL
Best comment xD
He's trying to show how he's better than us.
>Wears being too stupid for Ubuntu as badge of honor.
This is just the tech equivalent of people boasting that they don't get math.
Lollieisenbrot In general I can’t stand how some people are proud of their ignorance in anything. There are many, many fields that I don’t have a clue about, but I am always open to learning something, or at least respect that knowledge if it does not interest me.
The worst part is that those people are being used by others -it has always been, but specially nowadays- and the only reason is because it is easier to drive the hate of a person over something the less he or she knows about it.
@@keepercool98 That is epidemic in my area, and how most of the family that I don't have is. At some point, when it gets to some level of extremity, stupidity has to be considered evil, and a lot of people are way past that point. It's incredible how everything they do makes the world worse, because they refuse to know what the fuck they're doing before doing it.
@@AncientSocrates Maybe they don't do it because there's no way to do it.
@@dawkot6955 "there's no way to do it" - and yet youtubers have.
Same with musicians "i dont need to learn theory because music just has to flow out of yourself"
3:19 - All heil Arch Linux for being a barrier designed to be passed only by people who can read basic instructions.
yeah, im a linux noob, but one who's willing to read simple instructions from time to time
btw i use arch
@@illiiilli24601 geass ;(
@Anastasia Richter gentoo is just arch without precompiled binaries change my mind
just do lfs if you want to compile and shit and learn about linux
if you're a brainlet like me then just stick with arch
gentoo is the shitty middle ground
(then again what do i know)
Anastasia Richter
Can’t you manually configure the kernel in Arch?
wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Kernel/Arch_Build_System
As for your second point, I made the mistake of lumping Artix, Void, and various other Arch based distros together
Haha this is so true. I remember my college mates are like I use arch btw and I got seriously intimidated. It took me 7 fucking years of procrastinating it to finally install it only to find that you just need to read basic instructions
Boomer Chad RTFMs Virgin Zoomer linux noob with FACTS and LOGIC.
hEy wHaT dOeS "rTfM" mEaN?!?! iS tHaT a HaCkEr CoMmAnD oR sOmEtHiNg?!?! pLeAsE eXpLaIn 🤓🤓🤓
@@zyp6393Seeing that emoji makes me homicidal
@@user-no3tu9kh3p i almost hurled making the comment too dw
@@apestogetherstrong341 lib status: owned
Only the 1337 knows what rtfm means!1!!11
The same type who brag about having never used the command-line.
My boss brags about being able to do more with GUI than with a command line... kill me.
*shudder*
That's like nails on a chalk board to me. I don't get why people brag about not using the command-line. I use windows at work and, in some roles, I have to use PowerShell extensively.
On linux, I use the terminal quite extensively.
So... they brag about missing out on the best thing ever?
Danity “I mean it can’t be THAT great right?“ People don’t know what great is until they try it
I used to be one of them... Then I stopped putting stupid questions onto forums and started reading wiki's and searching out info instead of asking for it to be easily presented to me. I've learned tons and now I share this view. Its like they are arrogant about their ignorance and then expect someone to swoop in and fix their mistake
@JAYADEVAN RAGHAVAN For things that aren't in documentation and are genuine errors that needs fixing (not just something stupid like you forgot to install a package).
@JAYADEVAN RAGHAVAN Yeah, most people only tell you to RTFM if the documentation is sufficient, if you ask a legitimate question that's not covered by documentation, you'll get help.
@മേപ്പടിയാൻ for discussion or if you want other developers to see your code and spot anyways you could improve.
this mentality may come from windows where you have no real general documentation and have to ask questions
Seems about right
@K F you both nailed it. Windows slowly grinds people into technophobes, even those who might otherwise thrive with an OS like linux sadly.
@⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻ They have. Sadly, its entropy is basically zero.
I remember finding a whole bunch of documentation for Windows 98 that was pre-installed in the Windows directory. Literally, there were around 10 text files that explained pretty much everything about the OS. But, the only way you could find them is by going to the Windows directory, clicking OK to that scary "DO NOT PROCEED UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, THESE ARE CRITICAL SYSTEM FILES" warning, and find the documentation amongst the 20,000 other files in that directory.
i was a windows user and i never felt the need to ask any questions to fix shit idk.
when you make technology easier to use the world rewards you by finding you a dumber user that doesn't know how to use your thing.
Or your technology is so badly designed that you have to use documentation as a crutch and too arrogant to admit that you suck at designing stuff that makes it easy for other people. The best technologies are those which are self-documenting.
@@randomuser5237 self documenting technologies are an excuse to not properly document your work. the most useful part of documentation isn't for the people who know nothing about tech as they don't read it anyways, it's for you to understand wtf you did in the future. anyone who actually works on these technologies understand the dangers of undocumented (aka self documented) code. this take reads like a non programmer's take.
@@nnaaaaaa Your point has nothing to do with the video or your original comment which were for novice users. I have designed real-world software for nontechnical users unlike people in this comment thread and the channel owner. Good luck getting any user for a reasonably complicated tool by handing them a 500 page manual and telling them to RTFM and learn about obscure flags and options. And BTW nontechnical people doesn't mean they are ignorant fools, it means they have real jobs and don't have the time to read through the manual in order to perform a few basic tasks. The software should be intuitive enough to guide them through that process and "intelligent" enough to pick a set of sensible defaults which works for most users.
@@randomuser5237 you're not wrong about any of that, at all. my comment is more of a musing on how it feels to make something that focuses on technical excellence in the open source ecosystem. eventually it feels like all that effort was wasted on users that feel like they are entitled to having it but don't give back in any meaningful way. free software is great, free software users less so.
Random User then there are still users incapable of using an _intuitive_ program.
Luke just wants to rub it in that he owns a forest!
To each their own. Lots of people would hate living in a place like that.
@@SalvadorSTMZ they are wrong
his just walking around his neighbors' property..... those trees arent symmetrical just for fun, this are actual farms
@@an2qzavok well I'll just be enjoying my fiber gigabit internet over here :)
@@SalvadorSTMZ fiber gigabyte internet only matters for vloggers and gaymers.
Nietzsche was an Arch Linux user, this is why nobody understood him
They say Marcus Aurelius used Gentoo, it took centuries to compile.
yeah, and jesus is an TempleOS User
Judas Iscariot used Crux
Jordan Peterson use pop os
And nobody used Slackware.
6:35 "Maybe I'll use Gentoo at some point in time"
Okay Luke just don't think that we'll forget about that.
@say what? ugentoo linux
Yep, give a man a script and you solve today’s problem, teach a man to make a script and you got rid of your problem.
kek
Nice paraphrase.
- Mahatma Gandhi
@@ryukthegodofdeath8063 -tupac
man man
0:15 "oh man, I'm a N.... Ubuntu user" - almost done a pewdiepie there
Learning Linux takes time man. I've spent uncountable hours learning this stuff still I think I have a long way to go.
It's so damn vast that if you study things one day, a week from now you won't even remember it.
It takes humility and a lot of patience to go back to the documentation and re read it.
All for the love of Linux and it's all worth it.
NOOOOOOOO you can't improve!!!!!
I think it's important to keep the mindset that you're not dumb because you don't know something, you're smart because you understand you don't know something and want to learn.
"Identify with ignorance" is it. It is the premier human predicament. This is why the primary spiritual path is to recognize self; to release the false senses of self.
And the false sense(s) of self is known as Ahamkaar in Sanskrit. In Hindi, it is also used to refer arrogance and ego.
@@PixelTrik Ego is not the same. It is a confusing concept that isn't very useful to practitioners.
One problem novices might have is that even the most user friendly documentation can seem intimidating just because it's documentation. I certainly had this problem for the longest time. I preferred to look for youtube tutorials or answers on forums than to check the man page. I think I had a massive shift when I started work in embedded software development. I learned to love the 1000-page pdfs that explain everything about the processor you're working with, and man now doesn't look scary at all.
what minecraft biome are you in luke?
suicide forest
Hillside Plains?
@@andrewnforsyth ok, this is epic!
@@andrewnforsyth new suggestion to Mojang lol
He’s using the experimental features in 1.16 for custom dimensions with custom biomes! As you currently can’t override the default
"Arrogance of the novice" seems to be a much more descriptive term for "Dunning-Krueger Effect"
Well Dunning-Krueger is supposed to be "Arrogance of the Mid-wit." I don't talk about Dunning-Krueger because it's a fake effect in the literature (statistical noise), so ironically enough the only true example of Dunning-Krueger is the people who blame others of it.
@@LukeSmithxyz Fair enough. It makes sense that it is hard to quantify "arrogance", so there would be a lot of noise.
@@LukeSmithxyz I'm not that well read in psychology but I thought that Dunning-Kruger was quite established in the field. Could you point me to an article disputing the effect? (asking out of genuine interest btw)
@@LukeSmithxyz I thought dunning-krueger was the assumption that other people are equally as smart as oneself, whether that be smart or stupid
Apparently Wikipedia also says it's fake (see Mathematical Critique section), but you kinda have to look for it.
"Bullying on the internet is good"
Luke Smith 2020
I'm so absorbed by the fact that those trees are so well aligned
This forest is so artificial, this boomer 100% matrix
I think most of your audience don't tell you often enough how inspiring and precious you are to people who genuinely want to technically and coherently grow in their life.
Just wanted to drop this here:
About the Gentoo community, they are literally the nicest people I've ever seen, you will never ever get even laughed at for asking dumb questions even on #gentoo at freenode, such nice and helpful people.
Still ubuntu noobie users shill on them, saying they are just making things harder for themselves.
Happy you are feeling good in our company:) There are no stupid questions, just poorly asked ones (sometimes).
Walking through the woods while Luke rants. Reminds me of Mr Robinson's Neighborhood on SNL. Keep up the thought provoking content, Luke!
Arrogance of the novice is pretty much in %90+ of the population.
there's a difference between asking a question and asking for help
I think generally people want others to ask questions that invites good discussion. like in a way that showcase everyone's expertise that compliments their ego
some of the noob question is just sometimes people are just don't read, laziness. basic. everyone has that. not everyone has to be publicly criticized for such mistakes.
time, more people are just had the time in that they put in those technologies so the forum is diverse with any amount of experience.
help, no one else to talk to. they're just getting started, there's no clear communities. everybody seems to be already ahead of them.
People tend to consider their own ignorance as a privilege. This is why you need to print „Caution HOT Beverage“ onto a cup of coffee to avoid being sued.
Imagine having backyard like luke. It would make my quarantine #GreatAgain
Nooo you're so mean for calling out my stupid behavior!
Slowly improving the title bait game
Luke: rambling about Linux novices
Me: looking at the trees and the alignment.
I just remembered you called me out once for not testing the contents of a pull request to LARBS in an actual LARBS setup so it broke some things. I'm wounded for life and I'll never use free software again!!
I’ve been trying to do better lately about not expecting things spoon fed to me and actually reading documentation.
People don't want to try hard. I don't know why. So many stimulus and I think they want a kind of instanthanic answer. No space for interpretations, focus and everithing that come with these things. I hope you don't give up to share your knowledge and your point of view, your kind of elegant solutions. Thanks! Ayr, from Brazil south!
Hey, I'm still kinda of newbie (in knowledge, 'cause I've known Linux since I was a kid) and what is helping me is an online course made by Linux Foundation on Edx for *free* (you only pay if you want a certificate). It goes from very basic to scripting, network operations and security. I'm not done with it, but highly recommend for everyone who don't want to be noob in linux. I still like to joke about it :P
Here is the link, if anyone is interested: courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:LinuxFoundationX+LFS101x+1T2020/course/
They let you download the videos AND the subtitles
Thanks man!
I miss the Linux club in elementary school. We'd never Google shit and always just read docs. That went on for a couple of years until my friends moved away or became Windows elitists because muh gaemz.
This video is pretty funny cause I was just talking about this exact concept last night in regards with the emailwiz and mutt wizard script. Both have not worked for me but it would be asinine of me to blame or get mad at Luke/ others whove contributed to these scripts when there are error messages. Ive been a math tutor at the community college level for around five years now and its really insane to see this sort of stuff on the daily even outside of technology where you've literally set them up for success and even have troubleshooting stuff yet be blamed for the other persons incompetency to LOOK for around 5 seconds at the page and PONDER for around 10 seconds to comprehend whats on their to solve your problems.
Id like to thank you Luke (and others in the comment sections) personally for your scripts because even though they were not a solution for me, theyve given me the joy and pain of learning about the mystic world of email servers. Probably have wasted a few weeks of my time looking stuff up but at least my foots in the door and pointed in some general direction because of these scripts.
Luke: "I might use Gentoo"
Atrix meme users: "God damn, here we go again"
The same type to say "Linux is useless for me because i don't know how to use it, Windows better cuz it runs proprietary software"
"I do things the simple way."
"Well yes you do, but because you do so, you run into errors and take 10x the time for installing a programm from official repositories."
Moral of Luke's rant: Keep your EGO down and LEARN & IMPLEMENT!
Luke, it's been a week, are you ok?
Luke is suffering from GNU/Success.
German refugee films his escape through Gespensterwald forest
Well, its like saying, "why do you need to go to college, if you have documentation of the internet?".
Some people aren't capable of learning that way. Yes, you may call them stupid, but it is actually more arrogant of people to dismiss them, just because they are inferior to them
I'll never forget when I asked a dumb question on the arch reddit and someone dabbed on me bc the answer was like a 3 second search on the wiki. Honestly made me lol at my self and spend a lot more time focusing on trying to figure out issues myself before I go solicit help from others.
As you say, and I had that problem too... there are many people who don't understand the philosophy of ArchLinux, everything is about reading the ArchWiki but they go to some ArchLinux group for support and they ask how to install ArchLinux and they don't know even the basics commands lines. Then they say that ArchLinux community is not friendly and obviously is not true. ArchLinux is about taking your time of reading, comprehension and practice. That's the reason ArchLinux has no graphical installer. So the rules of ArchLinux forum and other groups are when you really have a problem that is not documented on the ArchWiki or when you write a correct question with all the details as possible. And this is the same with other distros or software. Many times I said "The error is the solution" and then they get mad with me... But literally many times you have the solution to your problem on the error message.
I think you shouldn`t be focusing so much on people like them. People like them usually try to blame other stuff for their own incompetence and arrogance. Personally, I find your videos quite fucking good and you def made me a better linux user. So keep up the good work !
Well it's hard not to focus on them when they're 60% of my inbox and Github issues 😉
@@LukeSmithxyz After 1 or maybe 3 stupid questions from user just ban email.
What you're talking about is identity politics at it's core: "I identify with this oppression that holds me down." (Even if that oppression is my own doing)
What's sad is that everyone's life is better when they identify with: "this is the oppression I kicked in the face!"
@Max Raider whilst correct, Teddy Roosevelt was a pretty horrific human being. He was still very driven and didn't let people dictate what his life was.
@@JLeppert Teddy Did Nothing Wrong
@@funnywarnerbox300 sure
"Most people aren't really bullying"
This man reversed engineered the positive impact of making fun of people, it'll make it stick easier and these people probably would be your friend
I feel what you're saying Luke. Imagine such behaviors being exhibited in a workplace by people you actually know and see in the office. Put some politics into the mix as well. And this describes my current struggle and I might have to change job after just over a year at a supposedly top 10 IT company.
Wow Cypher cosplay from Matrix speaking about ignorance
IGNORANCE IS BLISS
You have described why people don't used linux in this video.
People who are not expert in computing expect things to just work, they do not want to read read me files, look on forums or wiki to make things functional. Futhermore the forums, wiki and read me file expect that the user understand basic stuff. A new person to linux who had learn in kindergarten that cat is a four leg animal that meows is going to have to learn what that means in linux to understand the wiki, forums and read me file they read. To top things off linux keeps changing and the forums, read me files and wiki many times does not change as well, hence giving invalid instructions which won't work which lead to frustration. So people who are reading will be seen as elitist by people who can't get things to work without reading a manual of some sort. Put it this way if you buy a hard drive you plug it in a pc you expect files to easily be copied and paste. However if the hard drive formatted by linux for a linux system when purchased, you will need to understand file permission and user permission as when you get a permission denied error you need to know how to deal with it and not just return the drive and giving a bad customers review just because the user don't understand and don't want to learn user permission etc.
What a time we live in. Being braindead is not a problem anymore, it is a feature that a lot of people are proud of it!.....
What an opppresing person who try to make me learn something new that I don't know.
I can't focus on what Luke is saying - I'm fascinated with how the trees were planted in perfectly straight rows from every angle.
This is "Are you just TOO SMART to learn anything" v2. It's the same thing over and over and it is not only happening on tech stuff. People just don't want to "waste" their time reading and learning. They want the easy way out and that's why we see half-assery almost everywhere. It's refreshing to see a youtuber saying things like that even if it offends some of his subs. Well done man.
The reason people expect it to be different than say plumbing, is that plumbing is a job, and they expect computers to "just work". This is taken to the absolute extreme, hence boomers who can't even operate a DVD player.
Im an absolute linux noob and i started with gentoo. And the gentoo forums are very helpful even for the most basic of problems. They just appreciate more people joining gentoo. Honestly the most kind and helpful people
I installed Arch as a learning experience and needless to say the extensive documentation taught me a lot. Most operating systems I had installed up until that point did everything for you so I didn't get to see everything that went on behind the scenes. People shouldn't be intimidated by vocab/concepts they've never seen before, they should just look it up, read about it, and attempt to apply it.
i'm a noob linux user, i had to install ubuntu because the school and after 6 months of using it, i just thought i'd start reading the documentation. I have solved problems that took me 24 hours in 2 minutes just to read the documentation.
I spent all my life getting used to windows where you only need 2 clicks and that's it.
I would like to keep learning and take that mentality away, in the holidays I will try to install Arch. Thanks Luke, your videos help me to improve.
I think it's more of a bigger problem. These novices come from platforms like Windows and Macos where things are pretty user friendly and most software and actions don't need instructions. Linux on the other hand usually requires you to fundamentally change how you do things. Linux gives you so much with terminology and commands that usually aren't done on Windows or Mac. I messages from Linux TH-camrs about researching and reading documentation needs to be a more uniformed mantra to peeps. It's not only understanding a new platforms but really fundamentally changing their ways they interact with a computer.
There is a huge learning curve for a lot of tech. And noobs who don't have a repository of knowledge from experience encounter some issue they might feel are too big to get over. Some thing might be easy when you have that knowledge but if you haven't spent hundreds of hours learning and figuring stuff out you might have no clue what to do.
In tech support you can tell someone "Send me a screenshot of your network interfaces in the control panel" and they won't know wtf you are talking about, or even how to take a screenshot on their OS. And there is no handbook out there that explains how your computer and OS works anymore. In the 80s/90's before the internet was wide spread you would get a 300 page book telling you how to use your computer with your computer and you would have to read it and learn to use the computer. We don't have those anymore. Are Arch wiki is like a quick summary or how certain packages work and issues people have had, it is not a comprehensive explanation and demonstration of how that software works. Man pages are also horrible because I ain't got time to read 12571 lines to learn to how to use MPV. Yes, the man page for mpv is 12571 lines.
No human should have to spend thousands of hours of their life learning technology that saves minutes. Modern computers are unironically the reason the economy is complete shit. People spend thousands of hours writing software or fixing bugs in software which can be fixed by using another already existing program or restarting the program that hanging and spent that time doing something more productive. If you write software of any kind that is redundant because some software already does what your writing you are wasting your time unless it is for fun/learning purposes.
This is why linux will never have mass adoption. people often complain about their linux distros not having the best and most popular software on them, you dont because the users just arent there. Now to get more users you'll have to match or exceed what they're used to. On windows or Mac you can just call up support or do a quick google search and there will be a step by step instructions (with pictures ) on how to solve your issue most of the time your problem is solved.
On linux there's no support line you can call, when you do google something its just tons and tons of terminal commands and most of the time you these terminal commands are user specific with custom parameters, so you cant even copy paste the commands. Then when that doesn't work you go on the forums to get some help where you have someone screaming at you to read the documentation.
Most people dont want to do that, they dont want to read a ton of documentation because you dont have to do that on other OSes and with that people are sick of linux, until this has been fixed linux will be doomed to a sub 2% marketshare
Nice flatmap, Luke! Is that this new biome of the dev version that was discussed recently on the MeinKraft forum?
What evildoers removed the underbrush in the trees to hide the moonshine still?
Arch linux (and its installation process) is not for elite, advanced users, etc. It is just, for people who know how to read (wiki / manuals / apps messages / etc). 😕 For eg. installation is just few steps and done. If somebody can't do it then manjaro / mint / pop_os are just fine choices.
Code optimization is one of the most important things to do for developers.
I don't understand the way Karens and Kevins reasoning... 🤦
Your can thank winshit for this mentality. People have NO idea what goes over the hood but winshit (in a way advertises) gives people the belief that they are tech savvy, when they are not. Using a dumb complicated software/application like Adobe stuff doesn't mean they are knowledgeable at basic computer software technology. (at least Apple goes down the route of using pc an appliance)
The problem is not the normie who wants to be catered. It's canonical who promise them a non-technical Linux experience and baby sits them. Also people should not recommend ubuntu to users who want to LEARN Linux. It's same as windows at this point, it reinstall snaps even if you uninstall it yourself through apt. Its the least customisable distro right now.
I love this channel and its comments
its just a kernel with a GUI. i personally can't stand compiling all day, I have enough problems being stressed out from having to re-install and re-optimize everything on regular OS's. They all think they are better than you because they use Linux when in reality Windows and Apple support the best engineering applications like adobe, cubase, logic, etc but have the nerve to say "YOU CAN DO IT ALL WITH GIMP DUDE!" I liked Linux but I did not grow up with it and the people i worked with on it treated me weird. I ended up helping a lot of ppl in those classes that were like a decade older than me when I went in at around 25
Your voice is more pleasant than watching anime porn.
When the tree row lines up perfectly nggggg
Ty for all youve done for us on computer lol
>copy pastes error message into StackOverflow question with no context
>gets snarky replies
waaaaaaaaaaah i'm getting bullied. StackOverflow is so toxic
Yeah, they have no context and it makes sense they get pissed off (copy the code referenced by the error and explain your problem i.e. what you're trying to do)
(Yes, I know this comment is a joke, this is just some TL;DR help for novices)
OG ubuntu users are so fucking toxic, they are hurting my feelings on reddit. The arch and manjaro forums are varm and cozy tho for newbs like me having gpg key and pulseaudio issues.
There is drama in the community, no matter what distribution they use. I get trolled all the time. It isn't all the novices who do this, just a select few. And it's not all the advanced people who create drama either, most of them are very giving and patient with the community. I and many others appreciate your contributions.
Allow me, a Linux Noob to thank everyone who has took time out of their day to help me or another new user accomplish something which we may have struggled with.
Assuring you this, I will read man pages, scanned through searches and not found a solution myself. What you have taught me - will be something I'll fondly call upon if I encounter a user in my same situation.
How there's hate toward this community is beyond me, found nothing but willing, skilled people who proudly represent the operating system.
I remember being that person. It comes from not knowing a thing about how *nix systems work, and having a Windows mentality.
This is the equivalent of calling a driver uneducated because they don't what to be the ones repairing their cars.
If your software requires knowledge to operate it means you haven't put enough thought on its design.
It's not the same knowing a lot about technology than designing good technology, the same as it's not the same repairing cars than designing them. Or being a skilled developer versus a dude on the Arch forums who knows how to run commands on a terminal.
how dare you flex on me with that linuxfest badge holder
I can't help myself but to think that many Linux users are using Linux just to compensate for the lack of their "tech-saviness" :-D
Agree, be humble is quite important, not only on internet
7:09 "Dude this is a very basic question, it's in the README you should have just ... you know be careful next time"
I thought he would say RTFM lol
The Dunner-Kruger effect is strong in those people.
Luke lowkey about to post a video series on how to build a cabin.
3:45 I don't think plumbing is a good analogy because if you mess up as a plumber, that's very obvious. But if someone comfortably uses Ubuntu for years then it might not be obvious why Arch is better.
(then again, I've never known anybody who actually used Ubuntu comfortably for years, it inevitably breaks... Maybe that's another reason why distrohopping is popular)
Luke's story reminded me of a call I had when I was lv1. Guy calls in for an issue with a spreadsheet, he explains what he's trying to do and what happens when he does. As I have no clue what could be happening I remote on his PC and ask him to show me. When he does his thing I can see an error popup flash on his screen. I ask him about it and he says he doesn't know what it says and just closed it... I make him redo his procedure and not close the message, turns out there was one option he needed to tick...
Users you hear most from are usually those that can't be bothered to think for themselves or don't care that something is happening that maybe should not be happening.
Same why Morrowind players laugh about Skyrim players complaining 🤣
Whenever I first switched to Linux I had a lot of questions, and I would usually just look it up and there was just some documentation about the exact thing I was trying to do. I can't comprehend people not knowing how to do that. I also don't comprehend people who don't listen when forum users call them stupid. When that would happen to me I would sit there and try to figure out why they were calling me stupid, and then fixing my errors to not make the mistake in the future. Which is what you would call "learning", a seemingly foreign concept to the people described in this video.
The fact that not everyone does it this way is upsetting. I genuinely believe that short form content has made the ignorance issue more apparent. I'm noticing that a lot of people just straight up refuse to read anything in the terminal because "I shouldn't have to, that's the right command". I have a friend who refuses the use Linux because he thinks it's elitist and that Linux users think they're better than everyone. We aren't better than anyone, we're just willing to learn
Key to success:
Know what you know, know what you don't know and know someone who knows what you don't know
me : Look what i am trying to say is ....
smn: AAAAAA U THINK U BETTER THEN ME U ARCH USER
me : ughhnevermind ..
Don't do anything for people they can do themselves, people always learn better if they have to fix what they broke themselves. Also the documentation (for arch)is so good you can just tell you to RTFM.
NOOOO YOU CAN’T JUST TELL ME HOW TO OPTIMIZE MY SCRIPTS, I’VE HAD 3 COURSES ON C I KNOW HOW TO CODE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
using arch has changed how i think about technology and its awesome
We appreciate you and your efforts Luke, thank you, have a nice day!
"son, i just wanted to go for a quick hike... what this about 'oo-boon-too'?"
Luke, I don't think you are better than me, I KNOW you are better than me.
Dang those are alot of trees, how come you haven't maxed out your woodcutting? If you're such an ELITIST where's your skillcape?